Copyright 1986 The New York Times Company  
The New York Times
October 1, 1986, Wednesday, Late City Final Edition
SECTION: Section B; Page 3, Column 5; Metropolitan Desk

LENGTH: 649 words

HEADLINE: INFORMANT UNABLE TO CITE ANY CRIMES BY PERSICO

BYLINE: By ARNOLD H. LUBASCH

BODY:
An informant conceded yesterday that he had no first-hand knowledge of any illegal activities by Carmine Persico, whom he had identified as the boss of an organized-crime family.

The concession came when the informant, Joseph Cantalupo, was cross-examined by Mr. Persico, a defendant acting as his own lawyer in the Mafia commission trial in Federal District Court in Manhattan. Mr. Cantalupo said he met Mr. Persico in the 1960's at a Brooklyn realty company.

''And I came there to speak to Joe Colombo?'' Mr. Persico asked.

''Yes,'' the witness answered. He testified earlier that the late Mr. Colombo had used the realty company as a ''front'' for illegal activities.
 
Subject Matter Unknown

''Do you know what I spoke to him about?'' asked Mr. Persico, one of eight defendants in the racketeering trial.

''No,'' replied Mr. Cantalupo, who had described himself as a former Colombo associate.

Standing at a lectern in front of the jury box, Mr. Persico peered over the rim of his reading glasses as he directed pointed questions at the witness in a direct, man-in-the-street manner.

''Describe for these people my relationship to you,'' Mr. Persico said.

''Our relationship was only to say hello, shake hands, goodbye, nothing formal,'' Mr. Cantalupo responded.

When Mr. Persico asked him if they ever ''went on a stick-up'' together or did ''anything illegal'' together, Mr. Cantalupo said, ''No.''

''So, everything that you spoke here in this courtroom about me,'' Mr. Persico continued, ''was knowledge you picked up from other people?''

''Correct,'' answered Mr. Cantalupo, who testified Monday that Mr. Persico was the boss of the Colombo crime family, even while in prison, after Mr. Colombo was shot and went into a coma in 1971.
 
Suggestion by Persico

Mr. Persico suggested that Mr. Cantalupo, as a paid informant, had used law-enforcement agencies to get even with people. He noted that his brother, Alphonse (Allie Boy) Persico, had once beaten up Mr. Cantalupo because of an unpaid $10,000 debt.

''In 1972, you know I went to jail, don't you?'' Mr. Persico asked.

''Yes,'' Mr. Cantalupo answered, referring to Mr. Persico's hijacking conviction.

''And then you say somebody told you that I became the boss - while I was in jail?'' Mr. Persico asked in a sarcastic tone.

''Yes,'' the witness answered, ''That's what I was told.''

When Mr. Persico asked if the witness was familiar with the words Mafia and La Cosa Nostra, Mr. Cantalupo replied that he knew the words, but did not know whether such an organization existed.

''Nobody ever said to me they belonged to the Mafia, Cosa Nostra,'' Mr. Cantalupo continued, adding that no one ever spoke to him about belonging to organized crime.

''Why do you use that terminology in the courtroom?'' Mr. Persico asked. ''Is that informant terminology?'' ''No,'' the witness answered. He said he believed that the Colombo family was ''an organized-crime family.''

Replying to more questions, Mr. Cantalupo said he had been an early member of an Italian Civil Rights League founded by Mr. Colombo, and that the league had been successful in reducing public use of the terms Mafia and La Cosa Nostra. He agreed with Mr. Persico that organized crime was ''a Government-invented word.''

The 43-year-old informant, who testified in several previous trials, said he had made an agreement to testify for the Government in exchange for immunity from prosecution for past crimes.

A defense lawyer, Frank A. Lopez, asked yesterday about a long list of robberies and other crimes that Mr. Cantalupo committed while a paid informant. Mr. Lopez ridiculed the witness, saying he had concealed his crimes from Federal agents for years.

The lawyer suggested that Mr. Cantalupo was conducting a ''vendetta'' against the Persicos because he had been ''degraded and demeaned'' when he was beaten up by Alphonse Persico.