Chicago Laborers Trusteeship Transcripts 09-23-1997

 
	1     OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER
	2   LABORERS' INTERNATIONAL UNION OF NORTH AMERICA
	3 
	4 
	5   IN RE:		     )
	6   TRUSTEESHIP PROCEEDINGS        ) No. 97-30T
	7   CHICAGO DISTRICT COUNCIL       )
	8 
	9 
	10		    September 23, 1997
	11		      9:40 a.m.
	12 
	13 
	14	    The hearing resumed pursuant to
	15   adjournment at the Days Inn, 644 North Lake Shore
	16   Drive, Erie Room, Chicago, Illinois.
	17 
	18 
	19   BEFORE:  MR. PETER F. VAIRA, Hearing Officer.
	20 
	21 
	22 
	23 
	24

 
	1   PRESENT:
	2        COMEY, BOYD & LUSKIN,
	3        (1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W.,
	4        Washington, D.C.  20007-5243), by:
	5        MR. ROBERT M. THOMAS, JR.,
	6	    appeared on behalf of the GEB
	7	    Attorney;
	8 
	9        CARMELL, CHARONE, WIDMER, MATHEWS & MOSS,
	10        LTD.,
	11        (225 West Washington Street, Suite 1000,
	12        Chicago, Illinois  60606), by:
	13        MR. MARTIN P. BARR,
	14        MS. SUZANNE M. LAW,
	15	    appeared on behalf of the Chicago
	16	    District Council of Laborers;
	17 
	18 
	19 
	20 
	21 
	22 
	23 
	24

 
	1   PRESENT:  (Continued)
	2        FARACI & FARACI, P.A.,
	3        (111 West Washington, Suite 1720,
	4        Chicago, Illinois  60602-2766), by:
	5        MR. PETER S. FARACI,
	6	    appeared on behalf of
	7	    John A. Matassa, Jr.
	8 
	9 
	10   REPORTED BY:  DONNA. S. PAPPAS, CSR 84-2194.
	11	        CORINNE T. MARUT, CSR No. 84-1968.
	12 
	13 
	14 
	15 
	16 
	17 
	18 
	19 
	20 
	21 
	22 
	23 
	24

 
	1        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Gentlemen, we are ready
	2   to go.  Call your witness.
	3        MR. BARR:  Tom Penning.
	4	        (WHEREUPON, the witness was sworn.)
	5		  TOM PENNING,
	6   called as a witness herein, having been first duly
	7   sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
	8		DIRECT EXAMINATION
	9   BY MR. BARR:
	10        Q.    Would you state your name and spell it,
	11   Mr. Penning.
	12        A.    My name is Tom Penning, P-e-n-n-i-n-g.
	13        Q.    Who are you employed by, Mr. Penning?
	14        A.    Laborers Local 681.
	15        Q.    What position do you hold for 681?
	16        A.    I'm Secretary-Treasurer and field rep.
	17        Q.    Are those full-time positions?
	18        A.    Yes, they are.
	19        Q.    How long have you held those positions?
	20        A.    Since 1985, December of 1985.
	21        Q.    Is 681 the same local that Randy Dalton
	22   is connected with?
	23        A.    Yes, it is.
	24        Q.    When did you first become a member of

 
	1   the Laborers?
	2        A.    I first became a member in the fall of
	3   1974.  I got a job at Materials Service Die Corp.
	4   in Lockport.
	5        Q.    And what did that job involve?
	6        A.    I ran the batch plant that we made
	7   hollow core slabs for flooring systems.
	8        Q.    And how long -- withdraw that.
	9	    What classification did you work under?
	10        A.    I was a laborer.
	11        Q.    And how long did you work as a laborer?
	12        A.    11 years.
	13        Q.    Till '85?
	14        A.    Till '85.
	15        Q.    Do you recall the first union position
	16   you held?
	17        A.    The first position I held was President
	18   of the local.
	19        Q.    When did you become President of the
	20   local?
	21        A.    In either '77 or '78.
	22        Q.    Is that a part-time or full-time
	23   position?
	24        A.    That was a part-time.

 
	1        Q.    And how long did you hold the position
	2   of President for the local?
	3        A.    I held the position till 1985, December
	4   of 1985.
	5        Q.    And that's when you became
	6   Secretary-Treasurer and field rep?

	7        A.    Yes, it is.
	8        Q.    Can you tell Mr. Vaira the typical
	9   duties that you perform daily as
	10   Secretary-Treasurer and field rep of Local 681.
	11        A.    As Secretary-Treasurer and field rep
	12   for Local 681 I handle the books.  We have dues
	13   checkoffs which the company sends their quarterly
	14   dues in.  I take care of those.
	15	    As the field rep I handle grievances,
	16   arbitrations, I negotiate contracts with
	17   Mr. Dalton.
	18        THE HEARING OFFICER:  The field rep is really
	19   the full-time position.
	20        THE WITNESS:  Yes, it is.  The field rep.
	21        THE HEARING OFFICER:  The Secretary-Treasurer
	22   is not and the field rep job -- do you remember,
	23   you have three sitting?
	24        THE WITNESS:  We have two and then Mr. Dalton

 
	1   is Business Manager.
	2   BY MR. BARR:
	3        Q.    Very briefly, Mr. Penning, would you
	4   tell the Hearing Officer the type of work your
	5   members do at Local 681.
	6        A.    The type of work our members do is
	7   majority of them are in the gravel pits and quarry
	8   operation in which we have from a laborer who
	9   would shovel along the conveyor belts to plant
	10   operators, Class A plant operators, drillers,
	11   blasters, skilled repairmen.
	12	    In the concrete, we have people that
	13   pour the hollow core slabs, cut them and load
	14   them.
	15	    Concrete pipe, we have people that
	16   manufacture the concrete pipe.
	17	    We also represent Northwestern
	18   University, which we have a physical plant
	19   department.  In that department we handle the
	20   carpentry, painters, groundskeepers, a mason, mail
	21   delivery people.
	22        Q.    Okay.  A wide variety of things?
	23        A.    Yes.
	24        Q.    And as Mr. Dalton testified, does Local

 
	1   681 bargain its own collective bargaining
	2   agreements?
	3        A.    Yes, it does.
	4        Q.    Now, are you familiar with a
	5   jurisdictional dispute involving an employer named
	6   Conoco Western?
	7        A.    Yes, I am.
	8        Q.    When did that arise?
	9        A.    That happened four to five years ago.
	10   What was going on with Conoco Western is they're a
	11   quarry operation and they basically ran out of
	12   land above ground and they decided that they were
	13   going to sink a 200-foot shaft to open up a mine
	14   operation.  With their plans to do this, they
	15   hired an outside firm called American Mine Service
	16   to come in and sink the shaft for them and the
	17   operators were going to take it wall to wall.
	18        Q.    What were they going to take wall to
	19   wall?
	20        A.    Wall to wall, they were going to take
	21   all the duties of sinking the shaft, the drillers,
	22   which we have drillers under our contract, and the
	23   labor work, they were going to take everything, so
	24   we called the Council and the Council -- through

 
	1   the Council, they assisted us.  We had a meeting
	2   set up with the company and with the operating
	3   engineers and John Matassa came to assist us as
	4   director from the Council because his local also
	5   works with underground.
	6	    We had the meeting.  With his
	7   assistance, we were able to maintain the drillers
	8   and the labor work for putting the shaft in.
	9        Q.    Other than Mr. Matassa, who attended
	10   the meeting?
	11        A.    Mr. Dalton, Mike Suitterly, who is the
	12   president of Conoco Western.  From the operators,
	13   there was Jim Miller, and I believe Bill Dugan.
	14        Q.    Can you describe the atmosphere at the
	15   meeting, how it went?
	16        A.    The operating engineers did not want to
	17   give up any of the work.  They wanted to keep the
	18   drills.  With Mr. Matassa's help, he pointed out
	19   that the drills are laborers', not only in our
	20   quarry and pit contracts, but for construction,
	21   drillers are laborers' work, and with his help, we
	22   worked it out that we maintained the laborers'
	23   work.
	24        Q.    From your observations of Mr. Matassa

 
	1   during this meeting, whose interest did it appear
	2   that he had in mind during the meeting?
	3        A.    His interest was for the laborers, to
	4   maintain our work.
	5        Q.    Mr. Dalton testified about two disputes
	6   involving an employer known as Vulcan Materials, I
	7   think.
	8        A.    Correct.
	9        Q.    Is that correct?  Were you involved in
	10   the one involving the new plant at Manteno?
	11        A.    Yes, I was.
	12        Q.    Would you briefly remind the Hearing
	13   Officer what that dispute was about.
	14        A.    That dispute, the plant, Manteno, the
	15   operating engineers have been trying to organize
	16   that plant for white a long time.  Vulcan Material
	17   purchased it and the operating engineers felt
	18   since they had put all this time into it, that
	19   they should have it wall to wall, meaning that
	20   they should have all the positions in there, the
	21   plant operators, people on the ground shoveling.
	22   We did not feel this way.  We have a contract with
	23   Vulcan Material.  We felt what is our work covered
	24   under our contract should be assigned to us.

 
	1        Q.    And was Local 681 able to work out the
	2   problem itself?
	3        A.    No, we weren't.
	4        Q.    So was the District Council contacted?
	5        A.    Yes, it was.
	6        Q.    And could you describe the meeting that
	7   was arranged after the contact with the Council.
	8        A.    After we contacted the Council, we met,
	9   Mr. Bruno Caruso, Joey Lombardo, Randy Dalton,
	10   myself, met with the operating engineers.  At that
	11   meeting, there was Bill Dugan, Joe Ward, James
	12   Miller.  The operating engineers again were --
	13   because they had put all this time into trying to
	14   organize this plant, felt that we should have no
	15   part of it and with the assistance of Mr. Caruso
	16   and Mr. Lombardo, we were able to maintain what is
	17   covered under our contracts and we have members
	18   working there now.
	19        Q.    From your observations of Mr. Caruso at
	20   this meeting involving Vulcan in the Manteno site,
	21   what did it appear to be his objectives or the
	22   interests that he was representing at the meeting?
	23        A.    His objectives and interests were to
	24   maintain laborers work for laborers.

 
	1        Q.    And with respect to Mr. Lombardo at
	2   this meeting, what did it appear, based on your
	3   observations that his interests were?
	4        A.    Based on my observations, his was the
	5   same thing, to maintain laborers' work for
	6   laborers.
	7        Q.    Now, the other dispute with Vulcan
	8   involved Teamsters Local 786.  Are you aware of
	9   the issue in that case?
	10        A.    Yes.  That was over a large truck they
	11   had purchased which would load the explosive
	12   powders, whatever, into the holes drilled by our
	13   people for the shots that they would perform in
	14   the quarry.
	15        Q.    Did you attend a meeting with 786?
	16        A.    Yes, I did.
	17        Q.    Who attended that?
	18        A.    That was Mr. Kumerow, Mr. Lombardo,
	19   Mr. Dalton, myself.  From the Teamsters, Wally
	20   Huff and I don't remember the rest of the people
	21   that were there.
	22        Q.    Can you describe for us what occurred
	23   at the meeting?
	24        A.    At the meeting the Teamsters were upset

 
	1   because this was almost like a semitruck.  It was
	2   a very large truck.  They had pictures of the
	3   truck.  They kept saying this is a big truck.
	4   Teamsters should do it.
	5	    Our position was it was replacing an
	6   older flatbed truck that the Laborers had used for
	7   over 20 years, driving it, loading the shot.  They
	8   wanted to have a Teamster drive the truck.  They
	9   would let us work the back of the truck.
	10	    But we felt we have been doing this all
	11   along and this piece of equipment was no more than
	12   just some new equipment that Laborers had used in
	13   the past.
	14        Q.    What was the atmosphere of the meeting?
	15        A.    The atmosphere was the Teamsters very
	16   much wanted to get a driver on this truck.  With
	17   the help of Mr. Caruso -- Mr. Kumerow and
	18   Mr. Lombardo we maintained the positions on that
	19   vehicle.  To this day, Laborers are running that
	20   truck and loading the shots.
	21        Q.    Based on your observations of
	22   Mr. Kumerow at that meeting, what did it appear
	23   his interests were that he was representing at the
	24   meeting?

 
	1        A.    His interests was representing the
	2   Laborers and maintaining their work.
	3        Q.    And what about Mr. Lombardo?
	4        A.    The same thing.
	5        Q.    Mr. Penning, when did you first become
	6   a delegate to the Chicago District Council?
	7        A.    I first became a delegate in December
	8   of 1985.
	9        Q.    Have you attended the monthly District
	10   Council meeting since becoming a delegate?
	11        A.    Yes, I have.
	12        Q.    Would you describe for the Hearing
	13   Officer the usual proceedings at a District
	14   Council meeting.
	15        A.    The usual proceedings at a District
	16   Council is the meeting will be called to order.
	17   There is a roll call of officers and delegates.
	18   After the roll call of officers and delegates,
	19   they present any old business.
	20	    Then they go into the financial report
	21   for the previous month.  They ask for a motion to
	22   approve and pay the bills.  The motion is given
	23   and approved by the delegate by yea-nay vote.
	24	    They bring up any new business, what is

 
	1   going on in the area.  And the locals, if they
	2   have any particular problems, they report that.
	3   We have north side, south side committee reports.
	4        Q.    Are delegates allowed to express their
	5   opinions about any subject at the meetings?
	6        A.    Yes, they are.
	7        Q.    Do you recall whether the District
	8   Council has offered delegates the opportunity to
	9   have input into the Council's bargaining demands
	10   with MARBA, the employer association?
	11        A.    Yes, they do.
	12        Q.    How frequently does that arise?
	13        A.    When the contract is up.
	14        Q.    And the typical procedure is what?
	15   Would you describe that for the Hearing Officer.
	16        A.    The typical procedure is they have the
	17   meeting.  They discuss what problems the other BAs
	18   may be having in their areas, monetary gains that
	19   they want to see in the new contract, language
	20   changes in the contract.  All this is discussed.
	21        Q.    And delegates make suggestions?
	22        A.    Yes, they do.
	23        Q.    I think you have before you in that
	24   gray folder in the corner of the desk District

 
	1   Council Exhibits 38-A and 38-B.  Would you take a
	2   look at those.
	3	    Are those entitled "Informational
	4   Survey"?
	5        A.    Correct.
	6        Q.    Have you seen those before,
	7   Mr. Penning?
	8        A.    Yes, I have.
	9        Q.    Under what circumstances have you seen
	10   them?
	11        A.    I saw them at a District Council
	12   meeting.
	13        Q.    Have you seen them both at one meeting?
	14        A.    No, separate meetings, separate
	15   meetings.
	16        Q.    Approximately when during separate
	17   meetings did you see these two informational
	18   surveys?
	19        A.    In '97 and '96.
	20        Q.    What were the circumstances under which
	21   you saw them?
	22        A.    These were presented to us because they
	23   were looking for improvements to make in the
	24   pension plan and all the delegates received them.

 
	1   They -- they had the different options and you
	2   were to look it over and choose which option for
	3   the amount of money that you wanted to see the
	4   improvements made in the pension plan.
	5        Q.    Was there a particular officer of the
	6   District Council who asked the delegates to take a
	7   look at the surveys, to complete them and return
	8   them?
	9        A.    Yes, it was Mr. Caruso and
	10   Mr. Lombardo.
	11        Q.    Has the District Council requested
	12   input from the delegates concerning appointments
	13   that the Council has recommended to positions
	14   within the District Council itself or to the
	15   affiliated welfare fund and pension fund?
	16        A.    Yes, they have.
	17        Q.    Do you recall any particular case where
	18   such input was requested concerning a particular
	19   appointment?
	20        A.    Yes, Mr. Dalton was appointed as
	21   trustee of the health and welfare.
	22        Q.    Do you recall when that was?
	23        A.    Within the last year.
	24        Q.    Can you tell the Hearing Officer what

 
	1   happened at the Council floor concerning
	2   Mr. Dalton's appointment in that case?
	3        A.    What happened at the Council floor is
	4   he was recommended by the Executive Board of the
	5   Council.  It was then presented to the delegates.
	6   The delegates approved it by yea-nay vote.
	7        Q.    And after that Mr. Dalton was in fact a
	8   trustee?
	9        A.    Correct.
	10        Q.    Has that procedure been followed in
	11   other cases where delegates have been appointed to
	12   various positions on the District Council or to
	13   the funds?
	14        A.    Yes, it has.
	15        Q.    Are you familiar with the strike that
	16   the District Council called in 1991 over
	17   negotiations with MARBA, the employer association?
	18        A.    Yes, I am.
	19        Q.    Was the issue of whether a strike
	20   should be called discussed with the delegates
	21   before a strike was in fact called?
	22        A.    Yes.
	23        Q.    Would you tell the Hearing Officer the
	24   discussions that were held and what action was

 
	1   taken by the District Council.
	2        A.    They discussed how negotiations have
	3   been going, that they had some impasses and
	4   discussed the liability that you have when you do
	5   run a strike.  It was then the delegates approved
	6   that a strike should take place.
	7        Q.    How did they approve that a strike
	8   should take place?
	9        A.    They approved it by a yea-nay vote.
	10        Q.    Do you recall how long the strike
	11   lasted?
	12        A.    It lasted approximately a week.
	13        Q.    Were the delegates asked for any input
	14   before the strike was called off about a week
	15   later?
	16        A.    Yes, they were.
	17        Q.    Describe for us how that occurred.
	18        A.    Again, they had a meeting and discussed
	19   what gains they had made during the strike with
	20   negotiations with MARBA and they had the final
	21   offer and the delegates then voted to approve the
	22   final offer and end the strike by yea-nay vote.
	23        Q.    Do you recall who on behalf of the
	24   District Council Executive Board presented first

 
	1   the issue of whether to go on strike and then
	2   whether to end the strike?
	3        A.    Mr. Caruso and Mr. Lombardo.
	4        Q.    Mr. Penning, have you participated in
	5   District Council elections since becoming a
	6   delegate?
	7        A.    Yes, I have.
	8        Q.    Have you received advanced notice of
	9   the nominations meetings for the elections?
	10        A.    Yes, I have.
	11        Q.    Have you attended nominations meetings?
	12        A.    Yes, I have.
	13        Q.    Can you describe for us what sort of
	14   notice you received, first of all?
	15        A.    I received a notice in the mail stating
	16   the time and place and the purpose of the special
	17   meeting for nominations.
	18        Q.    Do you recall how many nominations
	19   meetings you have attended since becoming a
	20   delegate?
	21        A.    Three.
	22        Q.    Has the procedure been the same or
	23   different in the three meetings that you have
	24   attended?

 
	1        A.    It's pretty much been the same.
	2        Q.    Describe for us how the three meetings
	3   ran.
	4        A.    The president, business manager of the
	5   District Council would open the meeting.  After he
	6   opened the meeting, he would ask the delegates to
	7   turn it over to legal counsel.  At that point,
	8   legal counsel would run the meeting.  The first
	9   order of business legal counsel did was set the
	10   salary and wages for the different positions in
	11   the District Council.  After that was done, the
	12   delegates voted yea-nay to approve the salaries
	13   that were set forth.  Then the attorney went into
	14   the different positions for the District Council
	15   opening up to the floor, calling three times for
	16   any further nominations.  Hearing none, he would
	17   move on to the next position until all positions
	18   had been nominated.
	19        Q.    During any of the three nominations
	20   meetings or before them, were you coerced or
	21   threatened in any way from running for office
	22   yourself?
	23        A.    No, I wasn't.
	24        Q.    Were you coerced or threatened from

 
	1   nominating some other delegate?
	2        A.    No, I wasn't.
	3        Q.    Did you feel inhibited before or during
	4   any of the three nominations meetings about
	5   running for office yourself?
	6        A.    No.
	7        Q.    Or from nominating some other delegate
	8   to run for office?
	9        A.    No.
	10        Q.    Have you heard from any other source
	11   that another delegate has been threatened or
	12   coerced from running for office during any of the
	13   three elections?
	14        A.    No, I haven't.
	15        Q.    Are you aware that another delegate has
	16   been coerced or threatened from nominating another
	17   delegate?
	18        A.    No, I haven't.
	19        Q.    Since becoming a delegate in 1985, have
	20   you seen or heard anything which caused to you
	21   believe that the District Council is run by
	22   members of organized crime?
	23        A.    No, I haven't.
	24        Q.    Have you seen or heard anything which

 
	1   caused you to believe that the Council is not a
	2   democratically run labor organization?
	3        A.    No, I haven't.
	4        Q.    Since becoming a delegate, have you
	5   seen or heard anything that led you to believe
	6   that the Council discouraged its delegates from
	7   running for office?
	8        A.    No.
	9        Q.    Or from nominating delegates for
	10   office?
	11        A.    No.
	12        Q.    Have you seen anything since becoming a
	13   delegate that led you to believe that the Council
	14   discouraged its delegates from expressing their
	15   opinion about any subject?
	16        A.    No.
	17        Q.    Do you have any opinion as to why there
	18   have been no contested elections for officers
	19   since you became a delegate in 1985?
	20        A.    In my opinion, it's because,
	21   personally, I felt that the people that had these
	22   positions were doing an excellent job and I feel
	23   that our Council has grown stronger over the years
	24   since I've been there in maintaining what is

 
	1   laborers' work for laborers, improving their
	2   lifestyle, their benefits.
	3        Q.    There's been testimony during this
	4   proceeding that delegates are too afraid to oppose
	5   District Council leadership or positions that the
	6   Council puts forward.  Do you agree or disagree
	7   with that?
	8        A.    I disagree.
	9        Q.    Why do you disagree?
	10        A.    I don't feel that anybody has been put
	11   in the situation.  The Council is very open, you
	12   can discuss problems, any problems you have.
	13        Q.    Do you know Ernie Kumerow, the prior
	14   business manager of the Council?
	15        A.    Yes.
	16        Q.    And were you a delegate while Kumerow
	17   was an officer of the Council?
	18        A.    Yes, I was.
	19        Q.    Were you able to observe Mr. Kumerow's
	20   health from time to time?
	21        A.    Yes, I was.
	22        Q.    Just based purely on your visible
	23   observations, what did you see about his health?
	24        A.    The last year that Mr. Kumerow was

 
	1   there, he was having a lot of problems with his
	2   back, and prior to the election, the last election
	3   that he took place, he had surgery done.  After
	4   that surgery, you could tell, by the way he was
	5   walking, you could see in his face a lot of pain.
	6        MR. BARR:  I have nothing further.
	7	        EXAMINATION
	8   BY THE HEARING OFFICER:
	9        Q.    Mr. Penning, there's how many officers
	10   on the District Council?
	11        A.    How many officers?
	12        Q.    Yes.
	13        A.    I believe five.
	14        Q.    Five or seven, something like that.
	15   And say tomorrow afternoon one of them dropped
	16   dead.  All right?
	17        A.    Yes, regrettably.
	18        Q.    Just as an example, one of them dropped
	19   dead or said I'm leaving town, I'm getting out of
	20   here, I'm going away, I'm retiring, whatever, I'm
	21   going away, what process is followed to fill
	22   that?
	23        A.    Because the person that you're
	24   theoretically talking about was already in office

 
	1   and it's in mid-term, the Executive Board would
	2   recommend an appointment of somebody else to fill
	3   that position until the next nominations came
	4   around.
	5        Q.    So what's the Executive Board do to
	6   come up with those names, a name?  Do they --
	7        A.    They meet and they discuss -- I have
	8   not been in those meetings, but they would meet
	9   and I imagine discuss --
	10        Q.    Did anybody ever cast around and say
	11   would anybody out here like to be in this
	12   position?
	13        A.    As I recall, Mr. Dalton was appointed
	14   as auditor to fill a position and he was called to
	15   --
	16        Q.    How did he get there?
	17        A.    How did he get there?  He was called
	18   and asked if he would be interested in filling the
	19   position.
	20        Q.    Tomorrow afternoon, this person dies
	21   and you decide that maybe you are a talented guy,
	22   you're on the way up, you would like to do that,
	23   you would like to get in that position.  Has that
	24   ever happened?  Did anybody ever call up and say,

 
	1   hey, fellows, Jack just died.  I'm a comer.  How
	2   about appointing me?
	3        A.    I personally haven't been interested in
	4   doing it.
	5        Q.    Well, not you.  No.  Has anybody done
	6   that?
	7        A.    Not that I know of.
	8        Q.    How does this process work even though
	9   it's democratic and persons are -- nobody runs?
	10   Somebody has got to break the ice.  Some day
	11   somebody is going to say, hey, look, I'd like to
	12   go over there.  There has to be some procedure
	13   that the union or the Council will follow to
	14   select, to get a replacement.
	15	    Now, the question I've heard is, well,
	16   it's all great and everybody waves their hand and
	17   says there is no opposition, but somebody, some
	18   day is going to come up with an idea who is going
	19   to serve here.
	20	    Tomorrow afternoon, three people retire
	21   and it's right before the election.  Where do
	22   these -- does any --
	23        A.    Then I imagine the individual delegates
	24   would contact the Executive Board and say they

 
	1   were interested in filling that position and then
	2   the Executive Board would discuss it and either
	3   recommend them or perhaps throw all the names out
	4   there saying so-and-so is interested in it and
	5   this other person is interested in the position.
	6        Q.    Has that ever happened?
	7        A.    Not to my knowledge.
	8        Q.    Okay.  Has it happened that anybody
	9   ever -- can you name anybody who ever called up
	10   the Executive Board and said, hey, I'm ready.  I'm
	11   on the sidelines, coach.  Put me in?
	12        A.    They may have, but I don't know if they
	13   have made that phone call.
	14        Q.    Okay.  So, some -- somebody has got to
	15   break the ice.  Somebody has got to come forward,
	16   but you don't know what the procedure is for a new
	17   person emerging and coming up.  There are persons
	18   appointed and there are persons nominated, new
	19   persons, because people move on.
	20	    But you are not familiar with what
	21   process is used for that person to arise out of
	22   the ranks?
	23        A.    No.
	24        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Okay.

 
	1        MR. BARR:  Mr. Vaira, I might point out a
	2   prior delegate who testified did testify about
	3   some circumstances in that area and we will be
	4   sure and point that out for you.
	5        THE HEARING OFFICER:  We will hear from him.
	6        MR. BARR:  We have already heard it, but we
	7   will point it out in the record.
	8		CROSS-EXAMINATION
	9   BY MR. THOMAS:
	10        Q.    Good morning, Mr. Penning.  How are
	11   you?
	12        A.    Fine.  Good morning.
	13        Q.    I want to follow up on Mr. Vaira's
	14   questions there.  If I heard you correctly, you
	15   said that you would imagine that if someone was
	16   interested in running they would contact the
	17   Executive Board and then the Executive Board would
	18   discuss it, in the context of a replacement
	19   position?
	20        A.    Of a replacement, yes.  For an
	21   appointment, yes.
	22        Q.    Not an election?
	23        A.    Not an election but replacement of a
	24   vacancy, yes.

 
	1        Q.    But in the 12 years you have been with
	2   this union, you can't think of one instance in
	3   which that has actually happened, right?
	4        A.    Not to my knowledge.  I mean the person
	5   could have made the call who was appointed.  But I
	6   have no knowledge of that.
	7        Q.    Right.  That's my point.  It could have
	8   happened, but you are not aware of any

	9   circumstance that it has happened, correct?
	10        A.    Correct.
	11        Q.    As far as you know -- as far as you
	12   know, the Executive Board meets essentially in
	13   private.  It's just the Executive Board and what
	14   emerges from that meeting is a name, correct?
	15        A.    Correct.
	16        Q.    And then that is presented to the
	17   delegates and the delegates vote it up or down?
	18        A.    Correct.
	19        Q.    And historically -- maybe if we could
	20   take a look at this chart and that would help us
	21   out.  I will limit my questions to 1985 forward
	22   since that's when you were in a delegate
	23   position.
	24        MR. BARR:  I'm sorry.  When did you say?

 
	1        MR. THOMAS:  1985 forward.
	2   BY MR. THOMAS:
	3        Q.    Mr. Caporale stepped down in 1987 and
	4   was replaced by Mr. Kumerow.  That was done by the
	5   Executive Board's recommendation to the delegates,
	6   correct?
	7        A.    To the best of my memory, yes.
	8        Q.    That was a vacancy being filled as
	9   recommended by the Executive Board, correct?
	10        A.    Yes.
	11        Q.    Similarly, Mr. Kumerow stepped down at
	12   a point which was not an election cycle.  It was a
	13   vacancy to be filled.  The Executive Board
	14   recommended to the delegates Bruno Caruso,
	15   correct?
	16        A.    Correct.
	17        Q.    The same is true of Mr. Kumerow's
	18   departure from the President position and
	19   Mr. Caruso's winning that position, correct?
	20        A.    Correct.
	21        Q.    Did Mr. Neroni, the vice president, did
	22   he step down in a nonelection moment and have --
	23   did the Executive Board recommend that that
	24   vacancy be filled by John Matassa?

 
	1        A.    I don't recall.
	2        Q.    You don't recall that one?
	3        A.    I don't recall.
	4        Q.    Do you have any knowledge of how that
	5   happened, how Mr. Matassa came in as President in
	6   1994?
	7        A.    I don't remember.
	8        Q.    You don't remember voting on it?
	9        A.    For '94, for the election?
	10        Q.    When -- did Mr. Matassa come in during
	11   an election cycle?
	12        A.    I believe so in 1994.
	13        Q.    Now, Mr. Lombardo in 1987 came in by
	14   virtue of a vacancy, correct?
	15        A.    Correct.
	16        Q.    And that once again was the Executive
	17   Board recommending that Mr. Lombardo fill a
	18   vacancy created, correct?
	19        A.    Correct.
	20        Q.    Frank Caruso was already the
	21   Sergeant-at-Arms when you became a delegate,
	22   correct?
	23        A.    I believe so.
	24        Q.    And in 1994 or '5, he left that

 
	1   position and his place was filled by Leo Caruso,
	2   correct?
	3        A.    Correct.
	4        Q.    That also was an Executive Board
	5   recommendation that the delegates voted up or down
	6   to fill that vacancy, correct?
	7        A.    Yes.
	8        Q.    So, essentially with the possible
	9   exception of Mr. Matassa, the entire current
	10   leadership of the District Council first came in
	11   by filling a vacancy as recommended by the
	12   Executive Board?
	13        A.    Yes.
	14        Q.    And in -- just dealing with those four
	15   people, you're not aware of any challenge or
	16   alternative candidate being proposed by the
	17   delegates when those names were mentioned?
	18        A.    No.
	19        Q.    Mr. Penning, you were here for some of
	20   yesterday's testimony, were you not?
	21        A.    Yes.
	22        Q.    And you recall that whole series of
	23   questions about the Caporale votes?
	24        A.    Yes.

 
	1        Q.    You were not a delegate in 1982?
	2        A.    No, I wasn't.
	3        Q.    But you did come on in 1985 when
	4   Mr. Caporale was still Secretary-Treasurer and
	5   ultimately Business Manager when you first came
	6   on?
	7        A.    Yes.
	8        Q.    Were you given any information or did
	9   you know anything about his prior conviction at
	10   the time you came on as a delegate?
	11        A.    No.
	12        Q.    When is the first time you learned of
	13   the circumstances of his prior conviction?
	14        A.    When he departed, when he left.
	15        Q.    When he went to jail?
	16        A.    Yes.
	17        Q.    Is that the first time you realized
	18   that he even had that problem?
	19        A.    Yes.
	20        Q.    So, there was no discussion between
	21   1985 and 1987 among the delegates or between the
	22   delegates and the officers of the District Council
	23   as to whether he should be in that position or
	24   indeed what he had even done?

 
	1        A.    Not that I remember.
	2        Q.    You were a delegate, sir, when
	3   Mr. Frank Caruso departed and became head of the
	4   pension fund, correct?
	5        A.    Correct.
	6        Q.    Was that matter given to a vote by the
	7   delegates?
	8        A.    I don't recall.
	9        Q.    Who appointed Mr. Frank Caruso as head
	10   of the billion dollar -- what is now a billion
	11   dollar pension fund?
	12        A.    That is not a position with the
	13   District Council.  I am not sure who would have --
	14   who appointed him.
	15        Q.    So there was no -- that was not
	16   something that was put to the delegates or as to
	17   which the delegates had any say?
	18        A.    Not that I remember.
	19        Q.    Do you know anything about the
	20   circumstances of Mr. Caruso -- Mr. Frank Caruso's
	21   departure from the District Council?
	22        A.    No, I didn't.
	23        Q.    Or, alternatively, his new position at
	24   the pension fund?

 
	1        A.    No.
	2        Q.    You were here yesterday when I asked a
	3   couple of the witnesses if back in their local
	4   union a fellow officer of the local union
	5   embezzled funds and was convicted of that --
	6        A.    Yes.
	7        Q.    -- but had an appeal pending?
	8        A.    Yes.
	9        Q.    Do you agree with the statements that
	10   were made yesterday?
	11        MR. BARR:  Objection.  He has to know what
	12   statements we are referring to.
	13        MR. THOMAS:  I will be more specific.
	14        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I think so.
	15   BY MR. THOMAS:
	16        Q.    A couple of delegates said that if a
	17   fellow local union officer embezzled the union's
	18   funds, were charged with that offense and
	19   convicted of it, that they would not feel it
	20   necessary to remove that officer unless and until
	21   the appeals were completely final.  Do you agree
	22   with that?
	23        A.    No.  My feeling on that matter is that
	24   if they were indicted and convicted, they should

 
	1   resign their position.  If they appealed it and
	2   won their appeal, they should be reinstated.
	3        Q.    And if they were politely told by their
	4   fellow officers that it would be best to resign
	5   but they refused to do so, would you take any
	6   action to try and force the issue?
	7        MR. BARR:  Objection.  That's too
	8   hypothetical.
	9        THE HEARING OFFICER:  That may be the -- the
	10   delegates can only do certain things legally.
	11        MR. THOMAS:  I am talking about the local
	12   unions.
	13        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Even local unions.  The
	14   local -- you are asking him.
	15        MR. THOMAS:  May I be heard on this?
	16        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Go ahead.  I think you
	17   are asking him --
	18        MR. THOMAS:  It has to do with fiduciary
	19   responsibilities.
	20        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I understand that.
	21        MR. THOMAS:  And whether people feel any
	22   obligation pursuant to those responsibilities to
	23   take action when an officer does something and
	24   does not leave his post and this is something that

 
	1   came up several times yesterday.
	2        THE HEARING OFFICER:  You ought to frame it
	3   this way:  That under your hypothetical, at least
	4   what occurred then, he was not obligated to leave
	5   his post.  At least assume.  Let's assume he
	6   wasn't obligated to leave his post.  The law
	7   didn't require him to do so.
	8        MR. THOMAS:  Arguendo.
	9        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Arguendo.
	10        MR. THOMAS:  Arguendo.  Let's assume that's
	11   the case.  We do not agree with it.
	12        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I don't agree with it
	13   either.  Assume that's the case.  Then I guess
	14   you're asking him, even though the law doesn't
	15   require him to leave his post, you know that he
	16   has been convicted.  Do you have some
	17   fiduciary/moral obligation to ask him anyway?
	18        MR. THOMAS:  That's essentially -- if I could
	19   elaborate briefly.
	20        THE HEARING OFFICER:  But point out the fact
	21   the law doesn't require him to go.
	22   BY MR. THOMAS:
	23        Q.    Mr. Penning --
	24        MR. BARR:  May I be heard further on it

 
	1   before we proceed?  I mean, I still have a problem
	2   with the compound hypothetical questions included
	3   in it; 1, if someone were convicted without
	4   knowing what for, 2, if that person were asked to
	5   step down and didn't, and, 3, if you had some say
	6   over it, what would he do.  There's no time frame
	7   and it's got at least two or three hypotheticals.
	8        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Today.  Make it today.
	9   Make the conviction something everyone
	10   understands.
	11   BY MR. THOMAS:
	12        Q.    Mr. Penning, we'll pretend like this is
	13   today and I'll break it down so there is no
	14   compound nature to the question.
	15        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I assume you're looking
	16   for an answer about fiduciary responsibility.
	17        MR. THOMAS:  That's obviously what I'm
	18   getting at here.  I want to know if this witness
	19   agrees with yesterday's witnesses as to how they
	20   would approach this situation.
	21   BY MR. THOMAS:
	22        Q.    It's today and you're an officer of
	23   your local union and one of your fellow officers
	24   is charged with and convicted of embezzling that

 
	1   local union's funds.  Okay.  Now, let's assume
	2   that the law does not require, while his appeal is
	3   pending, that he step down.  I take it from your
	4   earlier answer you would feel that it would be
	5   best to recommend that that officer step down even
	6   while his appeals were pending?
	7        A.    Yes.
	8        Q.    And there would be an understanding
	9   that he could reapply if the conviction were
	10   overturned?
	11        A.    Not reapply.  If the conviction was
	12   overturned, that he should be reinstated.
	13        Q.    The reason that it would be best that
	14   the person step down after they have been
	15   convicted of such an offense is, in part, there
	16   has been a jury finding beyond a reasonable doubt
	17   that the personal violated the trust of the union,
	18   correct?
	19        A.    Correct.
	20        Q.    And that as a fiduciary to each other,
	21   you feel some obligation to not have that cloud
	22   over the union, correct?
	23        A.    Correct.
	24        Q.    So even if it were the case that there

 
	1   is no legal obligation for the person to step
	2   down, there may be other factors at play that
	3   might still make it a good idea for the person to
	4   step down?
	5        A.    Correct.
	6        Q.    Sir, there was at least one, perhaps
	7   two witnesses yesterday who indicated that in
	8   their view, there is no such thing as a Mob in
	9   Chicago.  Do you agree with that?
	10        A.    No.  There probably is, but I have
	11   no -- no, I don't agree with that.  There probably
	12   is, but I have no firsthand knowledge that it
	13   exists.  The media tells you it exists.  Law
	14   enforcement says it exists.
	15        Q.    Okay.  So you don't, even though you
	16   have no direct knowledge of it, you don't question
	17   the fact of its existence?
	18        A.    No.  It could exist.
	19        Q.    If it exists and assuming it exists, do
	20   you feel that it has any proper place in the
	21   affairs of this union?
	22        A.    No.
	23        Q.    And if there were credible allegations
	24   of organized crime affiliation with this union, do

 
	1   you feel they should be investigated or not
	2   investigated?
	3        A.    Depending on the allegations.  What do
	4   you mean by -- what sort of allegations?
	5        Q.    Suppose, again, hypothetically
	6   speaking, that there were an allegation that a
	7   union official was a made member of the Mob who
	8   meets privately with organized crime figures, not
	9   on union time, but he's meeting with organized
	10   crime figures, known organized crime figures.  Is
	11   that something that you think the union should be
	12   alerted to, respond to if there were a credible
	13   allegation of that?
	14        A.    I don't know how they would respond to
	15   it if it's just an allegation.
	16        Q.    In your view, what would trigger the
	17   meter towards a state of alertness if those kinds
	18   of things were going on?  Would it have to take an
	19   indictment or conviction?
	20        A.    I believe so.  It would take more than
	21   just allegation, rumors, whatever.
	22        Q.    But if people were indicted, that would
	23   certainly raise your antennae, wouldn't it?
	24        A.    Yes, it would, if they were indicted.

 
	1        Q.    Prior to these hearings, did you know
	2   Mr. Matassa had been indicted in a extorsion case?
	3        A.    No, I didn't.
	4        Q.    Prior to these hearings, did you know
	5   that Mr. Frank Caruso had been indicted in a
	6   syndicated gambling and street tax juice loan
	7   case?
	8        A.    No.
	9        Q.    Prior to these hearings, did you know
	10   that Mr. Vince Solano had been publicly cited in
	11   congressional hearings as an organized crime boss?
	12        A.    No.
	13        Q.    Prior to these hearings, did you know
	14   anything about the February, 1990 Chicago Magazine
	15   article outlining some of the alleged ties between
	16   the Mob and this union?
	17        A.    No, I never saw it.
	18        Q.    Prior to these hearings, did you know
	19   anything about the indictment and convictions of
	20   Mr. Palermo and Mr. Guzzino?
	21        A.    No.
	22        Q.    Prior to these hearings, did you know
	23   that Mr. Kumerow was Anthony Accardo's son-in-law?
	24        A.    Yes.

 
	1        Q.    And you knew who Anthony Accardo was?
	2        A.    Yes.
	3        Q.    Who did you understand him to be?
	4        A.    The big tuna, I mean, alleged Mob
	5   boss.
	6        Q.    And did you know, prior to these
	7   hearings, did you know anything about Mr. Joseph
	8   Lombardo, Sr.'s past history?
	9        A.    No.
	10        Q.    So is it the case that those items
	11   which you've just indicated you didn't know of
	12   until this hearing were simply not being discussed
	13   among the union members?
	14        A.    I was not aware of them, no.
	15        Q.    And to the best of your knowledge,
	16   neither was anyone else?
	17        A.    To the best of my knowledge, no.
	18        Q.    Sir, have you had an opportunity to
	19   review some of the exhibits in which the matters
	20   that I've just mentioned to you were openly
	21   available in the public notice, either in the form
	22   of congressional testimony or Chicago newspaper
	23   articles?
	24        A.    No, I haven't.

 
	1        Q.    Let me say to you that the exhibits
	2   that we have here, in addition to the transcripts,
	3   are completely available for your review a for the
	4   review of your fellow delegates.
	5        A.    I understand.
	6        Q.    Let me ask you a few questions about
	7   election procedures.
	8        A.    Yes.
	9        Q.    You mentioned that you do get notice of
	10   elections, you do get an opportunity to be heard.
	11        A.    Yes.
	12        Q.    You do get --
	13        THE HEARING OFFICER:  That's on the District
	14   Council.
	15        MR. THOMAS:  Correct.
	16        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Election procedures
	17   we're talking about.
	18        MR. THOMAS:  Correct.
	19   BY MR. THOMAS:
	20        Q.    You do get an opportunity to be heard?
	21        A.    Yes.
	22        Q.    You do get an opportunity to vote?
	23        A.    Yes.
	24        Q.    And although perhaps not exercised, you

 
	1   do get an opportunity to dissent, if you want?
	2        A.    Pardon me?
	3        Q.    Although --
	4        A.    The option is there, yes.  The option
	5   is there.  The floor is open.
	6        Q.    Okay.  Mr. Caruso didn't like the way I
	7   phrased that, so let me rephrase it.  Okay.
	8	    You have, if you choose to, the
	9   opportunity to dissent, correct?
	10        A.    Yes, I do.
	11        Q.    Historically, since you've been here,
	12   that's just not happened, has it?
	13        A.    I have had no reason to dissent.
	14        Q.    And just yes or no, you have not ever
	15   dissented, correct?
	16        A.    No, no, I haven't.
	17        Q.    And neither has anyone else?
	18        A.    No, not to my knowledge.
	19        Q.    So it has been the case since you've
	20   been here, since 1985, participating in District
	21   Council elections, that essentially uniformly the
	22   names that come out of the nomination process are
	23   accepted by a yea vote essentially without
	24   dissent?

 
	1        A.    Yes.
	2        Q.    And is it also true that in none of the
	3   election cycles and in none of the votes to fill
	4   vacancies has the question or the allegation of
	5   Mob influence ever come up?
	6        A.    Correct.
	7        Q.    You mentioned something about
	8   salaries.  I think you indicated that when the
	9   legal counsel speaks at the election time, one of
	10   the things legal counsel goes over is what the
	11   salary is for the position in question, is that
	12   right?
	13        A.    Yes, before the nominations.
	14        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I think that's
	15   required.  I think it's required to set it before
	16   they start.
	17        THE WITNESS:  It is set before the start of
	18   the nominations.
	19   BY MR. THOMAS:
	20        Q.    Some of the salaried positions of the
	21   District Council are well-paid positions, correct?
	22        A.    Yes.
	23        Q.    They would be an attractive post for,
	24   to use Mr. Vaira's term, a comer, someone who

 
	1   aspires to leadership in the union, that would be
	2   an attractive thing not only for the prestige of
	3   the position but also just for the remuneration,
	4   correct?
	5        A.    Correct.
	6        Q.    But no one since you have been here
	7   wants to break into that group and get that
	8   position?
	9        A.    Not to my knowledge.
	10        Q.    At least they have never expressed it
	11   other than the names that come out of the
	12   nomination process, correct?
	13        A.    Correct.
	14        Q.    And those names are -- it's always one
	15   name per position, right?
	16        A.    Correct.
	17        Q.    You indicated at one point in your
	18   testimony that the District Council meetings are
	19   open and people are free to discuss things and so
	20   forth.
	21	    I take it what you're referring to
	22   there is people feel free to raise issues relating
	23   to the Laborers union and feel free to agree or
	24   disagree as to what steps should be taken as

 
	1   Laborers, correct?
	2        A.    Correct.
	3        Q.    The one thing that is never discussed
	4   is whether the union is infiltrated by the mob?
	5        A.    Correct.
	6        MR. THOMAS:  Nothing further, Mr. Vaira.
	7        MR. BARR:  First I'd like to review
	8   something.
	9        THE HEARING OFFICER:  What is the real name,
	10   what is the true name of Tony Accardo?  His true
	11   nickname.  Not Big Tuna.  That is something that
	12   was given to him by the newspapers.
	13        THE WITNESS:  I don't know.
	14        THE HEARING OFFICER:  This is a test.  This
	15   has nothing to do with your knowledge of the mob.
	16   You just don't know.
	17        THE WITNESS:  I don't know.
	18        THE HEARING OFFICER:  We will take a survey
	19   and see if anybody knows that.  That was a name
	20   given by a newspaper.  Newspaper reporters tend to
	21   give silly names.  The ones in Philadelphia tend
	22   to name Philadelphia mobsters ridiculous names.
	23   They don't make any sense, have nothing to do with
	24   anything.

 
	1	        REDIRECT EXAMINATION
	2   BY MR. BARR:
	3        Q.    Mr. Penning, I think your last answer
	4   was that you do not recall any instance where mob
	5   involvement or infiltration had been discussed on
	6   the Council floor.
	7	    Has anyone ever prevented you or
	8   discouraged you from raising any issue of mob
	9   involvement or infiltration on the Council floor
	10   of the District Council?
	11        A.    No.
	12        Q.    You also said that despite the
	13   attractive salary involved with Council positions
	14   there has been only one candidate for each officer
	15   since you have been a delegate?
	16        A.    As I remember, yes.
	17        Q.    Is there any reason you can think of
	18   aside from the fact that you personally are
	19   satisfied with the representation provided by the
	20   incumbent officers why you have not run?
	21        A.    I have not run because I am happy with
	22   the jobs that they have performed.  Just dealing
	23   with my own local, the problems just with a local
	24   is quite a bit and to be the head of the District

 
	1   Council in either the positions, you are
	2   magnifying that by 22 other locals.  And
	3   personally I don't feel I have the talent at this
	4   point in my career to handle anything like that.
	5        Q.    Mr. Thomas asked you some questions
	6   about the nominations meeting and he referred on
	7   several occasions to the opportunity to dissent at
	8   a nominations meeting.
	9	    Are you technically given the
	10   opportunity to dissent at a nominations meeting or
	11   if you are not happy with the candidate nominated
	12   to nominate someone else?
	13        A.    Yes, you are.
	14        Q.    Which is the case, though?
	15        A.    That if you wanted to nominate somebody
	16   else, the floor is open.
	17        Q.    And is that the way one shows his or
	18   her dissent by nominating another candidate?
	19        A.    It could be.
	20        Q.    Is there some other way?
	21        A.    Not that I'm aware of.
	22        Q.    Have you personally had any reason to
	23   nominate any other candidate other than the one
	24   nominated for each position --

 
	1        A.    No, I have not.
	2        Q.    -- since you have been a delegate?
	3	    Mr. Thomas asked you questions about
	4   the fact that Ernie Kumerow was the son-in-law of
	5   Tony Accardo and Joe Lombardo, Jr. was the son of
	6   Joe Lombardo, Sr., both the father-in-law and the
	7   father reputed to be Organized Crime figures.
	8	    Did that affect your perception of how
	9   Mr. Kumerow handled his duties?
	10        A.    No, it did.
	11        Q.    Did it affect your position of how
	12   Mr. Lombardo handled his duties?
	13        A.    No.
	14        Q.    Did you ever see anything to indicate
	15   that Joe Lombardo, Jr. did not have the interests
	16   of the Laborers and its membership in mind?
	17        A.    No, I haven't.
	18        Q.    Did you ever see anything that led you
	19   to believe that Mr. Kumerow had anything but the
	20   interests of the Laborers and their members in
	21   mind?
	22        A.    No.
	23        Q.    Have you ever held a position with the
	24   Chicago District Council other than that of

 
	1   delegate?
	2        A.    No, I haven't.
	3        Q.    So you are not familiar with what goes
	4   on at Executive Board meetings?
	5        A.    No, I'm not.
	6        Q.    As a local official and a delegate to
	7   the Council, are you familiar with the local and
	8   district and International constitutions with
	9   respect to how vacancies may be filled?
	10        A.    Yes, I am.
	11        Q.    What do those -- are those
	12   constitutions, do they provide the same procedures
	13   or different procedures?
	14        A.    I believe it's the same procedure for a
	15   vacancy in midterm.
	16        Q.    And what do you believe or understand
	17   those procedures to permit?
	18        A.    Those procedures are either the local
	19   or the District Council, if there is an opening
	20   and the local level, its Executive Board or the
	21   District Council Executive Board will recommend
	22   somebody for that position and then it is voted
	23   upon.
	24        Q.    Do you know if in fact the

 
	1   constitutions do require the membership or the
	2   delegates, for example, to vote and approve a
	3   recommendation of an appointment?
	4        A.    I believe the delegates must vote on
	5   recommendations.
	6        Q.    Mr. Penning, have you had any training
	7   from the International with respect to what your

	8   fiduciary duties are as a union official?
	9        A.    No, I haven't.
	10        Q.    Have you attended any seminars in which
	11   the International described to you what your
	12   duties were with respect to investigating
	13   allegations or indictments?
	14        A.    Not that I recall.
	15        Q.    You were asked a question about
	16   Mr. Matassa being indicted I believe in 1983.  Do
	17   you know if Mr. Matassa was a delegate at that
	18   time?
	19        A.    No, I don't.
	20        Q.    You were not a delegate yourself at
	21   that time?
	22        A.    No, I wasn't.
	23        Q.    Do you know if Mr. Matassa held any
	24   union office in 1983?

 
	1        A.    No, I don't.
	2        MR. BARR:  One moment, please.
	3	    Nothing further, Mr. Penning.
	4        MR. THOMAS:  Just a couple, Mr. Penning,
	5   before we let you go.
	6		RECROSS-EXAMINATION
	7   BY MR. THOMAS:
	8        Q.    This perhaps is self-evident, but at
	9   least let me ask you the question anyway.
	10	    What Mr. Lombardo, Jr. talks to with
	11   his father, Mr. Lombardo, Sr., is not your
	12   business and not anyone else's business, correct?
	13        A.    Correct.
	14        Q.    And what they discuss is between them,
	15   correct?
	16        A.    Correct.
	17        Q.    And who Mr. Matassa meets with late at
	18   night is his business and not really something
	19   that you have an opportunity or an interest in
	20   following, correct?
	21        A.    Correct.
	22        MR. BARR:  Objection; that assumes that
	23   Mr. Matassa does meet with anybody late at night.
	24        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I think that's right.

 
	1   If he meets with anybody late at night, if he did,
	2   if he did.
	3        MR. THOMAS:  If he does that.
	4        THE HEARING OFFICER:  It's his business.
	5   BY MR. THOMAS:
	6        Q.    If he does, that is his business and
	7   you have neither an interest nor an opportunity to
	8   know about that, correct?
	9        A.    Correct.
	10        Q.    Now, you were just asked a question
	11   about the opportunity to dissent.  There is
	12   nothing that could be called a reform movement in
	13   this union, is there?
	14        MR. BARR:  Objection.  That calls for the
	15   witness to understand exactly what counsel meets
	16   as a reform movement.
	17        MR. THOMAS:  He can respond to that.
	18        MR. BARR:  I don't know that it gets to any
	19   issue before the Hearing Officer.
	20        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Yes, I don't think that
	21   is an issue before us, whether there is a reform
	22   movement.  No one has raised that.  No one.
	23        MR. THOMAS:  I will call it a dissent.  He
	24   says there is an opportunity to dissent.

 
	1   BY MR. THOMAS:
	2        Q.    The point is simply no one avails
	3   themselves of that opportunity, they -- people
	4   feel no need to dissent, correct?
	5        A.    I don't understand.
	6        Q.    You were asked questions on redirect
	7   about opportunity to dissent.  You have the
	8   opportunity to speak up if you want to speak up?
	9        A.    Correct.
	10        Q.    To challenge the leadership if you felt
	11   so inclined, correct?
	12        A.    Correct.
	13        Q.    But neither you nor anyone else
	14   actually does that, correct?
	15        A.    Not that I know of.
	16        Q.    And there is no -- just to -- let's
	17   take the current Teamster situation as a contrast.
	18	    You don't have a situation where you
	19   have one candidate who says I am a reformer and
	20   another candidate who says the heck you are, I am
	21   taking this union because I am a better candidate.
	22	    You don't have any of those kind of
	23   dynamics in this union, do you?
	24        MR. BARR:  Objection as to relevance.

 
	1        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I think the -- we have
	2   gone over and crossed over -- a number of
	3   witnesses have testified and you have established
	4   that.  We can have a lot of examples about what
	5   the Teamsters are doing now.  There is somewhat of
	6   a long history of the Teamsters anyway.
	7        MR. THOMAS:  I will leave it with the answer
	8   to the prior question.
	9        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Okay.
	10        MR. THOMAS:  Nothing further.  Thank you,
	11   Mr. Penning.
	12        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Thank you.
	13	        (WHEREUPON, the witness was
	14	        excused.)
	15        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Reporters, how are you
	16   doing?  The lawyers would like a break.  Give you
	17   ten minutes.
	18	        (WHEREUPON, a recess was had
	19	        from 10:35 to 10:50 a.m.)
	20	        (WHEREUPON, the witness was duly
	21	        sworn.)
	22        THE HEARING OFFICER:  What's the witness'
	23   name?
	24        MR. BARR:  Jim Frattini.

 
	1	        JAMES FRATTINI,
	2   called as a witness herein, having been first duly
	3   sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
	4	        DIRECT EXAMINATION
	5   BY MR. BARR:
	6        Q.    Will you state your name and spell it
	7   for the record, please.
	8        A.    James Frattini, F-r-a-t-t-i-n-i.
	9        Q.    Are you employed by the Laborers'
	10   Union, Mr. Frattini?
	11        A.    Yes, I am.
	12        Q.    By whom are you employed?
	13        A.    Labor Local 75.
	14        Q.    What position do you hold with Local
	15   75?
	16        A.    President and field representative.
	17        Q.    How long have you held those positions?
	18        A.    Since '94.
	19        Q.    And did you hold any positions with the
	20   local before 1994?
	21        A.    No.
	22        Q.    When did you first become a member of
	23   the Laborers' Union?
	24        A.    1968.

 
	1        Q.    What were the circumstances?
	2        A.    Joliet area had a lot of work.  I was
	3   working on a barge line, various other little
	4   jobs, and decided to go -- my brother got a job on
	5   construction, he told me about it, and I went and
	6   joined them.
	7        Q.    And what sort of work did you do when
	8   you joined your brother?
	9        A.    Laborer, concrete labor work.
	10        Q.    Do you recall who the employer was?
	11        A.    CF Braun.
	12        Q.    What sort of work did do you for that
	13   employer?
	14        A.    It was a new refinery and I was on the
	15   concrete gang.
	16        Q.    What have your duties been as president
	17   and field representative since 1994?
	18        A.    Conduct the meetings, the Executive
	19   Board meetings, regular meetings, sign payroll
	20   checks.  Myself and the treasurer sign all checks,
	21   conduct meetings; and field representative, we
	22   have two large counties, so I'm on the road quite
	23   a bit.
	24        Q.    About what percentage of your time do

 
	1   you spend inside the office compared with the time
	2   you spend outside the office?
	3        A.    I like to spend about three hours in
	4   the office in the afternoon, get the outside work
	5   done in the morning.

	6        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Is that Will and Grundy
	7   County?
	8        THE WITNESS:  Yes.
	9   BY MR. BARR:
	10        Q.    Good point.  Do you come from the same
	11   local as Scott Pavlos?
	12        A.    Yes.
	13        Q.    When did you first become a delegate?
	14        A.    1994.
	15        Q.    Since becoming a delegate, have you
	16   attended Council meetings?
	17        A.    Yes.
	18        Q.    How often do you attend them?
	19        A.    I missed very few.  I think I missed
	20   one.
	21        Q.    Will you describe for us what occurs at
	22   the typical District Council meeting?
	23        A.    I would say it's just about like our
	24   regular meetings, roll call, payment of bills,

 
	1   reading of the minutes, and new business, old
	2   business, delegate, committee reports, and instead
	3   of a working man getting up, it's a delegate from
	4   a local getting up, making statements.
	5        Q.    What sort of things are discussed on
	6   the Council floor by the delegates?
	7        A.    Everything, from political talk to
	8   people having trouble at other locals or jobs,
	9   contractors.
	10        Q.    About how long does the typical meeting
	11   last?
	12        A.    Probably average 45 minutes.
	13        Q.    Are delegates allowed to express their
	14   opinions on the Council floor about any subject
	15   they wish?
	16        A.    Yes.
	17        Q.    Since you've been a delegate, has the
	18   Executive Board of the District Council had
	19   occasion to ask the delegates for input to the
	20   Council's bargaining demands for its negotiations
	21   with MARBA?
	22        A.    Certainly.
	23        Q.    And please describe for us how that
	24   occurred, who spoke, if you recall, and what was

 
	1   said.
	2        A.    Well, the business manager would bring
	3   something up and just people out in the general
	4   audience, the delegates would bring up other
	5   matters.
	6        Q.    With connection to the contract
	7   demands?
	8        A.    Yes.
	9        Q.    Do you recall any of the subjects that
	10   have been discussed since you've been a delegate?
	11        A.    Not really.  I can't remember.
	12        Q.    The District Council Exhibit 38-A and
	13   38-B are before you in that gray folder.  Those
	14   are informational surveys.
	15        A.    Yes.
	16        Q.    Have you seen those before today?
	17        A.    Yes, I have.
	18        Q.    Can you tell us the circumstances under
	19   which you first saw those?
	20        A.    The first time was at a meeting.  They
	21   were distributed to us.  And then I think we
	22   received some in the mail to look over.
	23        Q.    Do you recall how you received them at
	24   the meeting?

 
	1        A.    I don't know if they were passed out or
	2   just on the table, but they were there.
	3        Q.    Were they both received at one
	4   meeting --
	5        A.    No.
	6        Q.    -- or at two different meetings?
	7        A.    Two different meetings.
	8        Q.    And when approximately did those two
	9   meetings occur?
	10        A.    One was probably '96, I'm pretty sure,
	11   '96, and then one was this year.
	12        Q.    In '97?
	13        A.    Yeah.
	14        Q.    I think you nodded.  You have to say
	15   something audible for the record.
	16        A.    '97 and '6.
	17        Q.    Were you asked, you or your local asked
	18   to do anything with the informational surveys?
	19        A.    Take them back to our locals and
	20   discuss -- put our input.
	21        Q.    Did your local do so?
	22        A.    Yes, we did.
	23        Q.    Did your local return them to the
	24   Council?

 
	1        A.    Yes.
	2        Q.    Do you recall if there was any
	3   discussion on the Council floor about the matters
	4   contained in the surveys?
	5        A.    I'm sure there was.
	6        Q.    And who was involved or engaged in that
	7   discussion on the Council floor?
	8        A.    I would think everybody put input, not
	9   just one person.
	10        Q.    And you do recall that was the case?
	11        A.    Uh-huh.
	12        Q.    Is that in -- I'm sorry.  Again, you
	13   have to say yes, no, or I don't know.
	14        THE HEARING OFFICER:  The record can't pick
	15   up --
	16        THE WITNESS:  Okay.  What was the question?
	17        MR. BARR:  Well, I forgot.  Can you find it
	18   easily and read it back for us?
	19	        (WHEREUPON, the record was read
	20	        by the reporter as requested.)
	21   BY MR. BARR:
	22        Q.    Was there actually discussion in 1996
	23   and 1997 at the meetings when the informational
	24   surveys were given out?

 
	1        A.    Yes, there was.
	2        Q.    Since you have become a delegate has
	3   the District Council Executive Board made
	4   recommendations to the delegates for the
	5   appointment of certain persons to Council
	6   positions?
	7        A.    I'm pretty sure there was one that I
	8   recall.
	9        Q.    Which one do you recall?
	10        A.    I think it was for the -- for Randy
	11   Dalton.
	12        Q.    And what do you recall about the
	13   circumstances concerning a recommendation?
	14        A.    He was recommended and it was put up
	15   for a vote.
	16        Q.    Who announced the recommendation?
	17        A.    I don't recall.

	18        Q.    And by a vote, who was involved in the
	19   vote?
	20        A.    Everyone.  All the delegates.
	21        Q.    What sort of vote did the delegates --
	22        A.    By voice.
	23        Q.    Do you recall if you attended a
	24   nominations meeting for District Council offices

 
	1   in 1994?
	2        A.    Yes, I did.
	3        Q.    And do you recall the details of that
	4   meeting?
	5        A.    Well, we received a notice in the mail
	6   about the nominations, the time, place and
	7   whatever.  It was brought up I think by -- it
	8   might have been Joey.  I can't remember who.  But
	9   then it was turned over to an attorney and he
	10   mentioned what was running, what position was
	11   open, et cetera, et cetera.
	12        Q.    During that meeting or before the
	13   meeting were you coerced from running for office?
	14        A.    No.
	15        Q.    Were you threatened or coerced before
	16   or during that meeting from nominating someone
	17   else for that office?
	18        A.    No.
	19        Q.    Did you feel inhibited in any way from
	20   running for office yourself or for nominating some
	21   other delegate?
	22        A.    No.
	23        Q.    Did you hear that anyone else was
	24   coerced or threatened from running for office

 
	1   during or before that meeting?
	2        A.    No, I didn't.
	3        Q.    Whether any other delegate was coerced
	4   or threatened from nominating another delegate --
	5        A.    No.
	6        Q.    -- before or during that meeting?
	7        A.    No.
	8        Q.    Since you have become a delegate,
	9   Mr. Frattini, have you seen or heard anything
	10   which caused you to think that the Council is run
	11   by members of Organized Crime?
	12        A.    No, I haven't.
	13        Q.    Have you seen or heard anything since
	14   becoming a delegate that led you to believe that
	15   the Council was not democratically run?
	16        A.    No, I haven't.
	17        Q.    Have you seen or heard anything since
	18   becoming a delegate that led you to believe that
	19   the Council discouraged its delegates from running
	20   for office if they chose to?
	21        A.    No.
	22        Q.    Or for nominating another delegate to

	23   run for office?
	24        A.    No.

 
	1        Q.    Have you seen or heard anything since
	2   becoming a delegate that caused you to believe
	3   that the Council discouraged delegates from
	4   expressing their opinions about any subject at
	5   all?
	6        A.    No.
	7        Q.    Have you heard testimony at this
	8   proceeding that the delegates are too afraid to
	9   speak up and disagree with Council leadership?
	10        A.    Have I heard it here?
	11        Q.    Yes.
	12        A.    I have heard it mentioned, but I have
	13   never --
	14        Q.    Well, there is testimony in this case
	15   the delegates are too afraid to speak up and
	16   express dissent to the Council.
	17        A.    I haven't seen -- I haven't seen it.
	18        MR. BARR:  Nothing further.
	19		CROSS-EXAMINATION
	20   BY MR. THOMAS:
	21        Q.    Good morning, Mr. Frattini.  How are
	22   you?
	23        A.    Good morning.  Fine.
	24        Q.    You were -- were you here yesterday

 
	1   during any of the testimony?
	2        A.    Yes.
	3        Q.    Okay.  And you were here for the
	4   previous witness' testimony?
	5        A.    Today?
	6        Q.    Yes.
	7        A.    Yes.
	8        Q.    I am going to repeat some but not all
	9   of those questions.
	10	    First, let me ask you about the
	11   question or the issue of whether the mob exists.
	12   There were a couple of witnesses yesterday who
	13   indicated some disbelief in whether the mob in
	14   Chicago even existed.
	15	    Do you agree or disagree with that?
	16        A.    Well, according to television and
	17   movies I think we are all brainwashed about it,
	18   whether there is or not.
	19        Q.    So, your view is that it doesn't exist?
	20        A.    I didn't say it didn't exist.  I said I
	21   am not aware of anybody affiliated with or
	22   anything.  So, I couldn't actually say there is.
	23        Q.    Well, accepting that you don't have any
	24   personal knowledge of the activities of the mob,

 
	1   if it exists, based on your living in Chicago,
	2   reading the newspapers, hearing people talk, do
	3   you have an opinion one way or the other as to
	4   whether it exists?
	5        A.    I imagine there might be.
	6        Q.    If it exists do you think it, it
	7   specifically Organized Crime, should play any role
	8   in the affairs of this labor union?
	9        A.    No.
	10        Q.    And if it were shown that the union had
	11   some ties to Organized Crime, do you feel that it
	12   is proper to look into that and investigate that?
	13        A.    Yes.
	14        Q.    You mentioned that people feel free to
	15   discuss things, free to disagree, free to dissent
	16   and so forth.
	17	    It is true, is it not, that the one
	18   thing that has never been raised or at least one
	19   of the things that has never been raised since you
	20   have been a delegate is the question we have just

	21   raised and, that is, whether this union has ties
	22   to the mob?
	23        A.    I never heard any mention.
	24        Q.    So, what people feel free to discuss

 
	1   and what is discussed at District Council meetings
	2   is specific union business, whether to go on
	3   strike, whether to accept a certain nomination,
	4   whether an hourly wage is appropriate, that type
	5   of thing?
	6        A.    Yes.
	7        Q.    Not whether or not the leadership has
	8   loyalty to any outside organization?
	9        A.    I have never heard anything mentioned.
	10        MR. THOMAS:  Nothing further, Mr. Vaira.
	11        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Okay.
	12        MR. BARR:  Nothing.
	13        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Thank you very much,
	14   sir.
	15	        (WHEREUPON, the witness was
	16	        excused.)
	17        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Caught you by surprise.
	18        MR. BARR:  We do it enough we can streamline
	19   it a little bit.
	20        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I have been in a
	21   situation where judges have just taken me to
	22   task.  I just run short here and, I mean, they
	23   come out and they let you have it.
	24        MR. THOMAS:  Can we go off the record?

 
	1	        (WHEREUPON, discussion was had
	2	        off the record.)
	3        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Yes, sir.  Good
	4   morning.  The young lady will swear you in.
	5		JOSEPH COCONATO,
	6   called as a witness herein, having been first duly
	7   sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
	8		DIRECT EXAMINATION
	9   BY MR. BARR:
	10        Q.    State your name and spell your last
	11   name.
	12        A.    Joseph Coconato, C-o-c-o-n-a-t-o.
	13        Q.    Are you employed by the Laborers union,
	14   Mr. Coconato?
	15        A.    Yes, I am, Laborers Local 25.
	16        Q.    What position do you hold with Local
	17   25?
	18        A.    President, Business Manager.
	19        Q.    How long have you held that position?
	20        A.    Since 1994.
	21        Q.    When did you first become a member of
	22   the Laborers?
	23        A.    1977.
	24        Q.    Do you recall the circumstances how you

 
	1   became a member back then?
	2        A.    Yes.  I went to work for a place called
	3   Midwest Flexicore.  We used to make precast
	4   panels, beams and stuff like that for buildings
	5   and roads.
	6        Q.    What job classification did you take
	7   when you went to work there?
	8        A.    Just a general laborer.
	9        Q.    What kind of work did you do for them?
	10        A.    Pretty much just poured the panels, the
	11   beams, cleanup, a little bit of welding.
	12        Q.    And you joined Local 25 at about the
	13   time you became employed there?
	14        A.    Yes, in 1977, yes.
	15        Q.    When did you first hold union office?
	16        A.    1983.  Became an Executive Board
	17   member.
	18        Q.    Was that a part-time position?
	19        A.    Yes, it was.
	20        Q.    What were your duties as Executive
	21   Board member?
	22        A.    Just pretty much sit there, whatever
	23   the Business Manager at the time discussed, so you
	24   had a voice in what was going to happen in the

 
	1   affairs of the Local 25.
	2        Q.    How long did you hold that position of
	3   Executive Board member?
	4        A.    I still hold it, as President and
	5   Business Manager.
	6        Q.    Was that an at large position?
	7        A.    In 1983?
	8        Q.    Right.
	9        A.    Yes, it was.
	10        Q.    Okay.  So, did you take another
	11   position after holding the position of Executive
	12   Board member at large?
	13        A.    I became a field rep in 1986.
	14        Q.    How long did you hold that position?
	15        A.    Till I became Secretary-Treasurer in
	16   1991.
	17        Q.    Now, when you became a field rep in '86
	18   was that a full-time job?
	19        A.    Yes, it was.
	20        Q.    And were you still full time then when
	21   you became Secretary-Treasurer in 1991?
	22        A.    Yes, I was.
	23        Q.    And when you were simply that of or had
	24   the duties of only field representative, what were

 
	1   your duties?
	2        A.    Pretty much stop on the outside
	3   construction sites, bring back whatever my
	4   findings were to the President and Business
	5   Manager, Secretary-Treasurer at the time of the
	6   local, organizing a little bit, stuff like that.
	7        Q.    And did you -- how did your duties
	8   change, if they did, in 1991 when you took on the
	9   position of Secretary-Treasurer in addition to
	10   that of field rep?
	11        A.    Pretty much when I became
	12   Secretary-Treasurer I used to take care of the
	13   health and welfare per capita, take care of paying
	14   of the bills in the office, stuff like that.  And
	15   I still maintained the field rep on the outside.
	16        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Secretary-Treasurer in
	17   your union itself is not a full-time job, right?
	18        THE WITNESS:  It was with Local 25.
	19        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Oh, it was?
	20        THE WITNESS:  Yes, it was.
	21        THE HEARING OFFICER:  So, full-time
	22   Secretary-Treasurer.  Did you have to give up
	23   being a field rep?
	24        THE WITNESS:  No, I maintained both.

 
	1   BY MR. BARR:
	2        Q.    And you maintained both until 1994 when
	3   you became Business Manager and President?
	4        A.    Yes, I did.
	5        Q.    What are your duties as Business
	6   Manager and President?
	7        A.    Still pretty much the same as field rep
	8   as far as go stopping on the job sites, stuff like
	9   that, representing guys on the outside if there is
	10   anything.  I also negotiate some plan contracts.
	11   That's as far as it goes for Business Manager.
	12   And for President I chair the meetings of the
	13   Executive Board and the membership.
	14        Q.    Since becoming business manager, about

	15   what percentage of your time is spent in the
	16   office and out of the office?
	17        A.    I usually go in the office in the
	18   morning, try to get there at around 6, 6:30, and I
	19   leave about 9 and most of the rest of the day I'm
	20   out in the field.
	21        Q.    Can you describe for the Hearing
	22   Officer the work jurisdiction of Local 25?
	23        A.    Western Cook County.
	24        Q.    And are the members of Local 25

 
	1   privately employed or employed by public
	2   municipalities and other employers?  Are they
	3   private or public?
	4        A.    Private.
	5        Q.    And what industry or industries do your
	6   members work in?
	7        A.    Outside construction, building
	8   buildings.  I have a few guys on roads.
	9   Underground work.  And then I also have some guys
	10   in plants, manufacturing concrete pipe.
	11        Q.    You mentioned plants.  Are those
	12   similar in any way to those members in Local 681?
	13        A.    Yes, they are, exactly.
	14        Q.    And how are they similar?  Do they
	15   perform the same work as some of the members of
	16   Local 681, just in a different area, or how are
	17   they different?
	18        A.    They do pretty much the exact same work
	19   for Local 681 pipe plants, not in -- I don't have
	20   nobody in the quarries and stuff like that.
	21        Q.    About what percentage of your members
	22   work in pipe plants versus construction industry?
	23        A.    I'd say I probably got about maybe 10
	24   percent in my pipe plants.

 
	1        Q.    And the balance in the construction
	2   industry?
	3        A.    Yes.
	4        Q.    Do your members have a typical
	5   classification?
	6        A.    On outside construction?
	7        Q.    Well, on outside construction.  Good
	8   point.
	9        A.    They're pretty much general laborers.
	10        Q.    And what about at the pipe plants, do
	11   they have a typical classification?
	12        A.    Some of them do.  Some of them are
	13   machine operators.  Some of them are forklift
	14   operators.  Some of them are just listed as
	15   general laborers, patch man.
	16        Q.    About how many members are in Local 25?
	17        A.    I have 534.
	18        Q.    Can you tell the Hearing Officer the
	19   rate for those members who work in the pipe
	20   plants?
	21        A.    I have one pipe plant that's at $13 an
	22   hour, up to, I believe it's 14.78 is the highest
	23   there.
	24        Q.    What about those members who work in

 
	1   the construction industry?
	2        A.    22.35.
	3        Q.    That's the standard rate negotiated by
	4   the Chicago District Council?
	5        A.    Yes, it is.
	6        Q.    Do your members -- are your members in
	7   the construction industry, first of all, covered
	8   by any Welfare Fund and Pension Fund?
	9        A.    Yes, they are.  They're covered by the
	10   District Council's Welfare Fund and the District
	11   Council's Pension Fund.
	12        Q.    What about those members who work in
	13   pipe plants, do they receive any benefit fund
	14   coverage?
	15        A.    They're covered by the District
	16   Council's Welfare Fund and they belong to LIUNA's
	17   International Pension Fund.  They call it LIUNA's
	18   Inter -- LIUNA's National Industrial Pension
	19   Fund.
	20        Q.    Who negotiates the collective
	21   bargaining agreement that covers your members in
	22   the construction industry?
	23        A.    The District Council.
	24        Q.    Have you ever participated in those

 
	1   negotiations?
	2        A.    No, I have never been on the meetings
	3   for them, no.
	4        Q.    Who negotiates your agreements covering
	5   your members employed in the pipe plants?
	6        A.    Myself and Local 681 do the pipe plants
	7   together.
	8        Q.    So you actually sit down at the table
	9   at the same time and negotiate together?
	10        A.    Yes, we do.
	11        Q.    How many pipe plants are there?
	12        A.    I believe there's a total of five.
	13        Q.    And are they represented individually
	14   or have they formed an association of some kind?
	15        A.    They have their own little association.
	16        Q.    So is it then one set of negotiations
	17   that you have with the five pipe plants?
	18        A.    Yes.
	19        Q.    Now, in the course of negotiating your
	20   collective bargaining agreement with the pipe
	21   plants association, have you ever found it
	22   necessary to obtain the assistance of the Chicago
	23   District Council?
	24        A.    Yes, we have.

 
	1        Q.    Do you recall when that happened most
	2   recently?
	3        A.    Most recent one was 1994.
	4        Q.    And who did that -- well, did it
	5   involve this one pipe plant association?
	6        A.    Yes, it did.
	7        Q.    And can you describe the situation for
	8   us that arose in 1994?
	9        A.    We were having problems coming up with
	10   a fair and economic package for our members.
	11   Basically our members -- everything we brought
	12   back to them that the contractor proposed was
	13   voted down.  We called Joe Lombardo to come and
	14   sit in with a meeting, and through his help,
	15   through the course of the day, we came up with a
	16   fair economic package for our members to accept
	17   and they did accept it.
	18        Q.    At the time you brought in Mr. Lombardo
	19   for assistance, were you facing a possible strike
	20   situation?
	21        A.    It could have been because it was
	22   coming very close to expiration of the contract,
	23   so it could have been, yes.
	24        Q.    And had a contract proposal or package

 
	1   been presented to your members prior to
	2   Mr. Lombardo being called in for assistance?
	3        A.    Yes.
	4        Q.    How many times had a contract been
	5   proposed to your membership?
	6        A.    I believe two times.
	7        Q.    And what was the result after the votes
	8   on those packages?
	9        A.    The membership would not accept it.
	10        Q.    Can you describe the type of assistance
	11   Mr. Lombardo provided during the negotiations
	12   after he was involved?  Did that include one
	13   meeting, by the way, or more than one meeting?
	14        A.    I believe it took one full-day
	15   meeting.  He was pretty much there all day long.
	16        Q.    Please describe the type of assistance
	17   Mr. Lombardo provided.
	18        A.    Basically, as I remember it, we were at
	19   a stalemate to receive more money for the guys.
	20   The contractors would not give us any more.  They
	21   said that was their last and final offer.  We need
	22   a little bit more to maintain the health and
	23   welfare and a fair wage for the guys.  And through
	24   Joey's input, we ended up -- I believe we ended up

 
	1   getting 5 cents more, I believe, that day, and the
	2   membership did accept it.
	3        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Was there some play
	4   back?  What do you do?  I mean, you're arguing
	5   about money, benefits, too?
	6        THE WITNESS:  Not so much benefits.  Pretty
	7   much just arguing about money that welfare was
	8   going to need.
	9        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Tell us -- give us some
	10   idea.  What did he do?  Mr. Lombardo comes in,
	11   usually on the other side of a table, and gave you
	12   assistance.  What did he do to move the ball?
	13        MR. BARR:  Can I ask just one question first,
	14   Mr. Vaira?
	15   BY MR. BARR:
	16        Q.    Did Mr. Lombardo take over negotiations
	17   as chief spokesman for the unions at that time?
	18        A.    No, no, he did not take over as chief
	19   spokesman.  Randy from Local 681 was the appointed
	20   chief spokesman at the time.
	21        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Tell me, here comes
	22   Lombardo in, he's going to give you assistance.
	23   What does he do to move the ball up so he can pick
	24   up -- is it 5 cents an hour?

 
	1        THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
	2        THE HEARING OFFICER:  What did he do?
	3        THE WITNESS:  Well, basically Mr. Lombardo
	4   has a better idea of exactly what welfare is going
	5   to need for the guys to maintain the exact same
	6   coverages they maintained in the past, and with
	7   him talking to them, telling them what the guys
	8   were going to get without cutting any coverages or
	9   anything like that, the company came up with 5
	10   cents more.
	11        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Did he argue figures?
	12   Did he give examples or what?  Each negotiator has
	13   a different feel.  Give us some idea of
	14   what -- you say he was able to move it.  Can you
	15   explain that?
	16        THE WITNESS:  Pretty much just with his
	17   conversation as far as it goes, like I say, just
	18   explaining how much money welfare was going to
	19   need effective June 1st.  The plant guys do not
	20   make what the outside guy makes.
	21        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I see that.
	22        THE WITNESS:  So we try to negotiate
	23   something to get it on their paycheck.  The guys
	24   in the plant, I mean, sometimes we've had some

 
	1   real bad negotiations where all their money went
	2   strictly to welfare, so none of their benefits
	3   could be cut, you know.  In this case here, the
	4   guys wanted, they wanted a big dollar.  They
	5   wanted a big dollar.  I mean, we didn't even get
	6   exactly what the guys wanted, but the guys settled
	7   on, you know, what we ended up getting.
	8        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Okay.
	9   BY MR. BARR:
	10        Q.    And how would you evaluate the
	11   assistance Mr. Lombardo provided you during that

	12   negotiation?
	13        A.    Very good.  I got a contract that day.
	14        Q.    Did his predecessor, Ernie Kumerow, get
	15   involved in a similar situation with you?
	16        A.    Ernie did pretty much the same thing in
	17   1991, and that was, I believe that was like a
	18   Saturday or a Sunday.  We had a meeting that --
	19        Q.    Had there been a vote on a contract
	20   before Mr. Kumerow got involved?
	21        A.    Yes, there was.  There was one time.
	22        Q.    And what was the result of that by the
	23   membership on the --
	24        A.    They would not accept it.

 
	1        Q.    They would not accept the package
	2   offered by the association?
	3        A.    They would not accept the proposal,

	4   correct.
	5        Q.    All right.  Then go on.  What occurred
	6   with Mr. Kumerow's assistance?
	7        A.    Pretty much -- that was pretty much the
	8   last minute, that's why we met on a weekend.  If I
	9   remember right, I believe my local already had the
	10   signs getting printed at the printer.
	11        Q.    Had what?
	12        A.    Getting the signs made up to go on
	13   strike at the printer.  And we ended up getting a
	14   contract that day as well.
	15        Q.    And how do you rate the assistance
	16   Mr. Kumerow provided during that situation?
	17        A.    Very good.  I got a contract that day.
	18        Q.    From your observation of Mr. Lombardo
	19   during the '94 negotiation, what did it appear to
	20   you his objective or purpose was at the bargaining
	21   table?  What was he trying to do as far as you
	22   could see?
	23        A.    I pretty much think he was on the
	24   laborers' side, and he understands that the

 
	1   laborers in the plants do not make the same amount
	2   of money, so he was there to get the best package
	3   he could for us.
	4        Q.    What about Mr. Kumerow in 1991, what
	5   did it appear that his objective or purpose was?
	6        A.    The same thing.
	7        Q.    Have you been involved in any
	8   jurisdictional disputes which required the
	9   assistance of the District Council to get
	10   resolved?
	11        A.    Yes.
	12        Q.    Say, within the last five years?
	13        A.    Yes.
	14        Q.    On how many occasions did you require
	15   Council assistance?
	16        A.    We've had a few.  Pretty much with one
	17   contractor, one contractor that works with me
	18   pretty well by the name of Martin Cement.

	19        Q.    Do you recall the most recent
	20   occurrence?
	21        A.    With that particular company, I would
	22   say it was around 1994, 1993, somewhere around
	23   there.
	24        Q.    And did you or your local contact the

 
	1   Council for assistance?
	2        A.    Yes, I did.
	3        Q.    Is that because you weren't able to get
	4   it resolved at the local's level?
	5        A.    Correct.
	6        Q.    Who was the other union involved in
	7   that case?
	8        A.    Operating engineers, Local 150.
	9        Q.    And what was the nature of the dispute
	10   back then?
	11        A.    Martin Cement has what they call
	12   bobcats, and they maintain that it should be the
	13   laborers running it, we maintain that it should be
	14   the laborers running it.  150 was claiming it.
	15   They wanted to get my guys off the machine and put
	16   their guys on the machine.
	17        Q.    And Local 25 had a relationship with
	18   Martin Cement --
	19        A.    Yes, I --
	20        Q.    -- for some length?  For how long have
	21   they had a relationship?
	22        A.    Longer than I've been around.
	23        Q.    What about Local 150?
	24        A.    A relationship with Local 150?

 
	1        Q.    Right, a bargaining relationship.
	2        A.    I get along with some of the 150 BAs.
	3        Q.    But did 150 have a bargaining agreement
	4   with Martin Cement?
	5        A.    No, they did not, no.
	6        Q.    Was this a new category of work that
	7   Martin Cement had somehow created back in '93 or
	8   '94?
	9        A.    Local 150 has been after Martin Cement
	10   for a numerous amount of years to get them to sign
	11   a 150 agreement.  They wouldn't do it.  There was
	12   an agreement that came about between the District
	13   Council and Local 150 and that's what 150 was
	14   trying to use to get Martin Cement to sign a
	15   contract with them.
	16        Q.    And in this case did you have to go to
	17   the Council to get their assistance to resolve the
	18   problem with Local 150 over the Bobcats?
	19        A.    Yes, I did.  I talked to Mr. Joe
	20   Lombardo.
	21        Q.    And what occurred as a result of your
	22   conversation with Mr. Lombardo?
	23        A.    The Laborers maintained the equipment.
	24        Q.    How many delegates does Local 25 have

 
	1   to the District Council?
	2        A.    Two.
	3        Q.    How long have you been a delegate
	4   personally?
	5        A.    1987.
	6        Q.    Since becoming a delegate have you
	7   attended the District Council's meetings?
	8        A.    Yes, I have.
	9        Q.    And how frequently do you attend the
	10   meetings?
	11        A.    I -- 98 percent of the time.
	12        Q.    And are the meetings held each month?
	13        A.    Yes, they are.
	14        Q.    Can you describe the attendance at the
	15   meetings you have attended since becoming a
	16   delegate?
	17        A.    Every local is represented.
	18        Q.    What is the typical procedure followed
	19   at the Council meetings that you have attended,
	20   Mr. Coconato?
	21        A.    Meeting is called to order and then
	22   roll call of officers is taken by the
	23   Secretary-Treasurer.  He makes sure pretty much
	24   everyone is attendance, every local is

 
	1   represented, then he turns the chair back over to
	2   the President and the President conducts whatever
	3   business as far as it goes, north side committee,
	4   south side committee, reports on things that the
	5   District Council is looking into, political
	6   league, everything, you know, like that.
	7        Q.    Are delegates free to or allowed, I
	8   should say, to speak and present their opinions on
	9   any subject at the Council meetings?
	10        A.    Yes, they are.
	11        Q.    Do you recall if the District Council
	12   has requested or allowed input from the delegates
	13   into the Council's bargaining demands with MARBA,
	14   the employer association?
	15        A.    Yes, they do.
	16        Q.    How frequently does that arise?
	17        A.    If we negotiate a three-year contract
	18   it ends -- they sit there and bring it up at the
	19   end of that term, the end of that contract.
	20        Q.    Has it occurred for every contract
	21   negotiations for MARBA since you have been a
	22   delegate?
	23        A.    Yes.  I remember one time they asked us
	24   to write stuff down and actually give it to them.

 
	1        Q.    Who asked you to write stuff down?
	2        A.    The District Council.
	3        Q.    Anyone in particular?  Can you recall
	4   who said it?
	5        A.    I believe at the time Ernie Kumerow was
	6   the President at the time.
	7        Q.    Has the Council followed the same
	8   procedure in terms of requesting input from the
	9   delegates on the bargaining demand for all its
	10   contracts since you have been a delegate?
	11        A.    Sure, yes.
	12        Q.    And would you describe what that
	13   procedure has been concerning the request for
	14   input from the delegates?
	15        A.    Basically I mean you could stand up and
	16   voice your opinion if you would like or write it
	17   down, whatever you would like.  Whatever best is
	18   for yourself.
	19        Q.    In that gray folder in front of you,
	20   there are two documents, Council Exhibits 38-A and
	21   38-B, both identified as informational surveys.
	22        A.    Yes.
	23        Q.    Have you seen those before?
	24        A.    Yes, I have.

 
	1        Q.    Under what circumstances have you seen
	2   those?
	3        A.    They were given to us, I would be --
	4   I'm guessing April of every year for the last two
	5   years for a June 1st, how to allocate the money,
	6   the economic package.
	7        Q.    How were they given to you and by whom,
	8   if you remember?
	9        A.    When you walk in the District Council,
	10   there is a packet laying there with your local
	11   number on it.  I believe they were attached to
	12   that.
	13        Q.    And was there any discussion on the
	14   Council floor at those meetings in 1996 and 1997
	15   about the informational surveys?
	16        A.    Yes, there was.
	17        Q.    Do you recall who on the Executive
	18   Board was involved with the discussion about the
	19   informational surveys?
	20        A.    I believe it was somebody from the
	21   trust fund.  I believe that's who it was.  An
	22   actuary or somebody from the trust fund.  I
	23   believe that's who it was.
	24        Q.    Some professional to the trust fund?

 
	1        A.    Yes.
	2        Q.    And did any delegates participate in
	3   the discussion at the '96 or 1997 meetings
	4   concerning the informational surveys?
	5        A.    Of course.
	6        Q.    Were the delegates asked to do anything
	7   in particular with the surveys?
	8        A.    Yes.  You're asked to sit there and
	9   fill it out and send it back.
	10        Q.    And did your local do so?
	11        A.    Yes, I have.
	12        Q.    Since you have become a delegate has
	13   the Council asked for input from the delegates
	14   with respect to recommendations for appointments
	15   to Council positions?
	16        A.    No, I do not think so, no.
	17        Q.    Do you recall if any situations
	18   involving a vacancy -- withdraw that.
	19	    Has a vacancy in any position to the
	20   District Council arisen prior or shall I say in
	21   between elections to the District Council?  Do you
	22   recall that situation?
	23        A.    Do I recall some?  Yes.
	24        Q.    Do you recall that situation coming up?

 
	1        A.    Yes, I do.
	2        Q.    And do you have any recollection of
	3   the -- any member of the Executive Board making a
	4   recommendation to the delegates for the
	5   appointment of a position to fill the vacancy that
	6   arose in between elections?
	7        A.    I don't sit on the Executive Board.
	8   So, no, I don't know of any.
	9        Q.    I'm referring to a District Council
	10   meeting.  I mean if you don't recall, but I am not
	11   sure I asked you the proper question.
	12	    Do you recall if at a District Council
	13   meeting a representative from the Executive Board
	14   made a recommendation for an appointment to a
	15   vacancy that arose in between scheduled elections?
	16        A.    In other words, that they brought it up
	17   to the delegates to recommend somebody, is that
	18   what you are asking me?
	19        Q.    A recommendation brought up to the
	20   delegates at a District Council meeting.
	21        A.    Yes, I do remember that.
	22        Q.    Do you remember that?  Do you remember
	23   any in particular, any particular vacancies I
	24   mean?

 
	1        A.    I believe in the case of Ernie Kumerow
	2   to Bruno Caruso, that was the most recent one.
	3        Q.    What do you recall about that one?
	4        A.    Basically Ernie stepped down due to ill
	5   health.
	6        Q.    And did he or someone else recommend a
	7   successor to Ernie Kumerow?
	8        A.    I believe it was recommended, the
	9   Executive Board recommended Mr. Caruso.
	10        Q.    Do you recall if the delegates voted on
	11   whether Mr. Caruso should be appointed to Ernie
	12   Kumerow's successorship?
	13        A.    Yes.
	14        Q.    Do you recall a strike called by the
	15   District Council in 1991 over its negotiations or
	16   failure to reach a satisfactory collective
	17   bargaining agreement with MARBA, the employer
	18   association?
	19        A.    Yes, I do.
	20        Q.    Do you recall if the District Council
	21   asked for input from the delegates before a strike
	22   was actually called?
	23        A.    Yes, they did.
	24        Q.    Can you describe how that occurred?  If

 
	1   you can recall, please tell us who said what about
	2   the contract, status of the contract.
	3        A.    I don't believe it was any one person.
	4   I believe it was all the delegates.  They did not
	5   like the wages, the economic package that was
	6   offered, and we all voiced opinion not to accept
	7   it.
	8        Q.    To accept their recommendation to
	9   strike, you mean?
	10        A.    To not accept MARBA's economic package.
	11        Q.    It was the -- was there the option of
	12   striking discussed on the Council floor?
	13        A.    Yes, it was.
	14        Q.    Were the delegates asked to take a vote
	15   on whether there should be a strike?
	16        A.    Yes.
	17        Q.    And did they do so?
	18        A.    Yes.
	19        Q.    What was the form of the vote?
	20        A.    Yeas and nays.
	21        Q.    And did they authorize the strike?
	22        A.    Yes.
	23        Q.    Do you recall if there was a similar
	24   discussion about whether to end the strike in that

 
	1   particular instance?
	2        A.    Yes, it was brought back to the
	3   delegates again to accept it or not to accept it.
	4        Q.    And did the delegates again vote on
	5   whether to end the strike?
	6        A.    Yes.
	7        Q.    And did they vote to end the strike?
	8        A.    Yes, they did.
	9        Q.    Have you participated since becoming a
	10   delegate in the District Council elections?
	11        A.    No, I have not.
	12        Q.    Have you attended nominations meetings
	13   that have been held by the Council?
	14        A.    Yes, I have.
	15        Q.    Would that be on two occasions, in 1990
	16   and 1994?
	17        A.    Yes, it would be.
	18        Q.    Did you receive advanced written notice
	19   of the nominations?
	20        A.    Yes, I did.
	21        Q.    And how did you receive them?
	22        A.    By mail.  I believe I got one mailed to
	23   my house and one to my office.
	24        Q.    Do you recall the contents of the

 
	1   notice, notices?
	2        A.    I believe it was one piece of paper
	3   notifying us that there was nomination to be held
	4   on such and such a date.
	5        Q.    And did you say that you did attend
	6   both nominations meetings in 1990 and 1994?
	7        A.    Yes, I did.
	8        Q.    Who ran the meetings, if you recall?
	9        A.    The President started the meetings and
	10   then turned it over to counsel.
	11        Q.    And what did counsel do after the
	12   meeting was turned over to him?
	13        A.    He ran the meeting, basically set the
	14   wages, opened up the nominations, asked three
	15   times for on every position if any opposition.
	16   Hearing none, then he would close that position.
	17        Q.    Before either of those meetings or
	18   during the meetings did anyone coerce or threaten
	19   you from running for office?
	20        A.    No, they did not.
	21        Q.    Before or during the meetings did
	22   anyone coerce or threaten you from nominating
	23   another delegate?
	24        A.    No, they did not.

 
	1        Q.    Did you feel inhibited in any way from
	2   running for office if you chose to?
	3        A.    No, I did not.
	4        Q.    Did you feel inhibited for any reason
	5   in nominating some other delegate to run for
	6   office?
	7        A.    No, I did not.
	8        Q.    Have you heard about any other delegate
	9   being coerced or threatened from running for
	10   office himself?
	11        A.    No.
	12        Q.    Or from nominating some other delegate
	13   to office?
	14        A.    No.
	15        Q.    Have you seen or heard anything which
	16   caused you to think that the District Council is
	17   run by members of Organized Crime?
	18        A.    No, I have not.
	19        Q.    Have you seen or heard anything which
	20   caused you to think or believe that the Council
	21   was not democratically run?
	22        A.    No, I have not.
	23        Q.    Have you seen or heard anything which
	24   caused you to think that the Council discouraged

 
	1   its delegates from running for office?
	2        A.    No, I have not.
	3        Q.    Or for nominating some other delegate
	4   to run for office?
	5        A.    No.
	6        Q.    Have you seen or heard anything which
	7   caused you to believe that the Council discouraged
	8   delegates from expressing their opinions on the
	9   Council floor about any subject?
	10        A.    No.  The floor is open for discussions.
	11        Q.    Do you have any opinion as to why there
	12   has been no contested election for positions to
	13   District Council since you have become a delegate?
	14        A.    They do a great job.
	15        Q.    There has been testimony in this
	16   proceeding that delegates are too afraid to speak
	17   their minds and to voice dissent or oppose Council
	18   leadership.  Do you agree or disagree with that?
	19        A.    I disagree.
	20        Q.    And why do you disagree?
	21        A.    The floor is open.  I mean for any
	22   discussions.  So, if you have an opinion,
	23   that's -- you are supposed to stand up and state
	24   it.

 
	1        MR. BARR:  One moment, please.
	2	    Nothing further, Mr. Vaira.
	3		CROSS-EXAMINATION
	4   BY MR. THOMAS:
	5        Q.    Good morning, Mr. Coconato.  How are
	6   you?
	7        A.    Good morning.  How are you?
	8        Q.    Good, thanks.  Were you here for any of
	9   yesterday's testimony or this morning's testimony?
	10        A.    Not yesterday.  I was here for this
	11   morning.
	12        Q.    If I were to represent to you that
	13   there were a couple of delegates yesterday who
	14   testified that in their view there is no such
	15   thing as a mob in Chicago.  Do you agree or
	16   disagree with that?
	17        A.    I pretty much read in the paper and
	18   stuff.  They lead you to believe that there is.
	19        Q.    And that's just from your general
	20   knowledge as a citizen of Chicago reading the
	21   papers, talking to people, observing what normal
	22   people observe, correct?
	23        A.    Pretty much so, yes.
	24        Q.    If there is such a thing as Organized

 
	1   Crime in your view does it have any role to play
	2   in the Laborers union?
	3        A.    No, it does not.
	4        Q.    And if you had evidence of Organized
	5   Crime in your local, you would exercise your
	6   fiduciary duties to try and eradicate it, correct?
	7        A.    Yes.
	8        Q.    Let me put to you the questions that I
	9   gave to some of the earlier witnesses.
	10	    If one of your fellow officers in Local
	11   25 embezzled funds and was charged with that and
	12   convicted of that but had an appeal pending, what
	13   would you feel was the appropriate disposition of
	14   his status as an union officer during that period
	15   of time?
	16        MR. BARR:  Just to clarify.  We are talking
	17   about present day.
	18        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Present day.
	19        MR. THOMAS:  Sure, if this happened today.
	20   BY THE WITNESS:
	21        A.    If he is appealing it?
	22   BY MR. THOMAS:
	23        Q.    Yeah, but he's been convicted, he's
	24   been found guilt by a jury of embezzling your

 
	1   union's funds.  What do you think would be the
	2   appropriate thing for your fellow officers to do
	3   in that situation?
	4        A.    If he's appealing it, that means he's
	5   not been proven guilty, so I say he maintains his
	6   position.
	7        Q.    And, of course, the question assumes
	8   under current law that it would be technically
	9   allowable for the person to stay.  You would let
	10   let him stay until he's -- his appeals are
	11   exhausted?
	12        A.    Correct.
	13        Q.    So at least to that extent, you
	14   disagree with Mr. Penning when he said that he
	15   would actually remove him pending appeal?
	16        A.    Then, yes, then I disagree, yes.
	17        Q.    The jury's finding unanimously beyond a
	18   reasonable doubt, which, of course, is the
	19   standard in criminal cases, wouldn't sway you at
	20   all?
	21        A.    Not if he's appealing it.
	22        Q.    And suppose the appeals took, as they
	23   did 15 years ago in Mr. Caporale's case, five
	24   years, you are working with someone who has been

 
	1   found guilty of that kind of conduct and you've
	2   just got to wait for the process to run its course
	3   and it takes as long as five years, you'd still
	4   leave the man in there that whole period of time?
	5        A.    Yes, because I believe an appeal is
	6   he's not found totally guilty yet.
	7        Q.    Well, let's, for the moment, anyway,
	8   leave aside the question of the criminal process.
	9   It doesn't raise any concerns about what the
	10   person is doing?
	11        A.    Sure, it raises concern, yes.
	12        Q.    But you wouldn't give it any weight
	13   until the appeals are final?
	14        A.    Correct.
	15        Q.    And you wouldn't do any extra scrutiny
	16   of that person's performance in the meantime?
	17        A.    Yes.  I mean, if you're asking if I
	18   would watch him a little closer, yes.
	19        Q.    Why is that?
	20        A.    Well, basically because there is some
	21   evidence there.  He's appealing, though, that he's
	22   not officially guilty yet.
	23        Q.    So you might exercise a higher level of
	24   scrutiny, but you wouldn't actually remove him?

 
	1        A.    Correct.
	2        Q.    Would you raise it at all --
	3        A.    Raise what?
	4        Q.    -- in discussion?  The fact of the
	5   conviction.
	6        MR. BARR:  I'm not sure that's a very clear
	7   question, raise it at all.  I mean, with whom,
	8   when, how?
	9   BY MR. THOMAS:
	10        Q.    Would you talk about it with your
	11   fellow officers?
	12        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Refine the question.
	13   BY MR. THOMAS:
	14        Q.    Would you talk about it with your
	15   fellow officers, after the conviction, but before
	16   the appeal?
	17        A.    Yes.
	18        Q.    You would have a full and frank
	19   discussion with your cohorts?
	20        A.    With my board members, yes.
	21        Q.    With the board members, and you'd say,
	22   we've got this issue, it's a serious issue and we
	23   need to decide what approach to take?
	24        A.    Yes.

 
	1        Q.    And there might be some strong opinions
	2   on that, right?
	3        A.    There could be, yes.
	4        Q.    One way or the other, you might not be
	5   unanimous about what the proper approach would be?
	6        A.    Yes.
	7        Q.    I did not understand one thing that you
	8   said.  When Mr. Barr asked you about your
	9   participation in the most recent election cycles,
	10   you indicated that you had participated in 1990
	11   and '94 elections, is that right?
	12        A.    Yes.
	13        Q.    Did I misunderstand your earlier
	14   testimony that you have been a delegate since
	15   1994?
	16        A.    A delegate?
	17        Q.    Yes.
	18        A.    A delegate since 1987.
	19        Q.    Since 1987.  I beg your pardon.  Okay.
	20   So you've been able to observe the election cycle
	21   as well as the filling of vacancies phenomenon of
	22   the District Council for some 10 years or so?
	23        A.    Yes.
	24        Q.    And in every instance in which a

 
	1   vacancy has been filled, the Executive Board has
	2   met on its own, come up with one name for the
	3   delegates to consider, and that name has been

	4   accepted virtually unanimously every time,
	5   correct?
	6        A.    Yes, it has.
	7        Q.    Similarly, with respect to the election
	8   cycle, when the notices go out and the vote is
	9   actually taken, one name per position is
	10   recommended and submitted for a vote, there have
	11   been no challenges and those names have been
	12   accepted, again, virtually unanimously, correct?
	13        MR. BARR:  I've got an objection.  It's got
	14   about three parts to the question.  It talks about
	15   a recommendation.  I think we're talking about a
	16   nomination process.  It sounds like coupled within
	17   the question is perhaps an objection to someone's
	18   qualifications to be nominated and even run for
	19   the position.  So it seems to have many, many
	20   components which I think make it a --
	21        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Well, the way to solve
	22   this is to ask each part one at a time and once
	23   you get to the end, then you can ask the question
	24   that follows it.

 
	1   BY MR. THOMAS:
	2        Q.    Okay.  Mr. Coconato, with respect to
	3   the election process, in every instance, notices
	4   have gone out, correct?
	5        A.    Yes.
	6        Q.    And one name has been nominated per
	7   position in every instance, correct?
	8        A.    On the notice, there's one name, you're
	9   saying?
	10        Q.    Yes.
	11        A.    No, I don't believe there's any names
	12   on the notice.
	13        Q.    Okay.  Well, when the vote is taken,
	14   when the meeting comes up to vote, one name is
	15   given to the membership, to the delegates, for
	16   purposes of a vote, correct?
	17        A.    For that particular position, yes.
	18        Q.    Okay.  So one name per position?
	19        A.    Correct.
	20        Q.    And in every instance that you can
	21   recall, those votes have been unanimous or
	22   virtually unanimous, correct?
	23        A.    Yes, they have.
	24        Q.    And never has anyone stood up and

 
	1   questioned anyone's qualifications, have they?
	2        A.    No.
	3        Q.    No one has ever questioned their prior
	4   criminal indictments?
	5        A.    No.
	6        Q.    No one has ever questioned their
	7   affiliations?
	8        A.    No.
	9        Q.    No one has ever questioned whether or
	10   not these people have loyalties outside the union?
	11        A.    No.
	12        Q.    And no one has ever stood up and said,
	13   wait a minute.  I want to run against this guy and
	14   I'd like to be heard on that?  No one says that?
	15        A.    Not since I've been there, no.
	16        Q.    Back in 1994 or 1995, Frank Caruso left
	17   the District Council.  Do you recall that?
	18        A.    Yes, I do.
	19        Q.    Do you know what the circumstances
	20   were?
	21        A.    The guy that was over at the Pension
	22   Fund retired.  Frank applied for the job.
	23        Q.    Is that what was publicly stated to the
	24   members of the union, or privately stated?

 
	1        A.    No.  You asked me what I thought
	2   happened.  That's what I believe happened.
	3        Q.    What was your information about the
	4   head of the Pension Fund retiring?  Did someone
	5   tell you that or was there a notice on that?
	6        A.    No.  I knew him and he was retiring.
	7        Q.    And with respect to Mr. Frank Caruso's
	8   replacement as sergeant at arms of the District
	9   Council, what do you recall the nomination or the
	10   recommendation process being from the Executive
	11   Board there?
	12        A.    I believe the Executive Board appointed
	13   Leo Caruso to fill that vacancy.
	14        Q.    And was that submitted to the delegates
	15   for any form of approval?
	16        A.    Yes, it was.
	17        Q.    And that was approved unanimously?
	18        A.    Yes, it was.
	19        Q.    No one questioned Leo Caruso's
	20   affiliations?
	21        A.    No.
	22        Q.    No one questioned his qualifications?
	23        A.    No.
	24        Q.    No one questioned any involvement he

 
	1   may or may not have had with organized crime?
	2        A.    No.
	3        Q.    Did anyone express any interest in
	4   themselves being sergeant at arms in 1995?
	5        A.    Not to me.
	6        Q.    So it was essentially a fairly routine
	7   and uneventful process, a name was given, a vote
	8   was taken and it was unanimous, Leo Caruso
	9   replaced Frank Caruso?
	10        A.    Yes.
	11        Q.    Were you a delegate in 1987 when
	12   Mr. Caporale stepped down and Mr. Lombardo came
	13   in?
	14        A.    Yes.
	15        Q.    Was it your understanding that in order
	16   to be an officer of the District Council, a person

	17   had to be affiliated with a local and, indeed, an
	18   officer of a local?
	19        A.    At that time, I was so new, I didn't
	20   even under -- know all the rules.  I didn't
	21   understand the rules.
	22        Q.    Do you understand that today?
	23        A.    Yes.
	24        Q.    Was Mr. Lombardo an officer, president,

 
	1   business manager, of any local in 1987, to your
	2   knowledge?
	3        A.    I don't know.  To my knowledge, no.
	4        Q.    Did anyone raise that issue, to your
	5   recollection?
	6        A.    No.
	7        Q.    You indicated that at District Council
	8   meetings, people feel free to discuss things,
	9   correct?
	10        A.    Yes.
	11        Q.    The things that people feel free to
	12   discuss are basic union business, whether a
	13   contract is acceptable, whether a wage rate is
	14   acceptable, whether the benefits can be improved,
	15   those types of issues, correct?
	16        A.    Yes.
	17        Q.    What is not discussed and has never
	18   been discussed is whether there are organized
	19   crime ties in this union, correct?
	20        A.    Correct.
	21        MR. THOMAS:  Nothing further, Mr. Vaira.
	22        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I have a couple
	23   questions, just a clarification.
	24

 
	1	        EXAMINATION
	2   BY THE HEARING OFFICER:
	3        Q.    Local union election, there's a
	4   nomination process, I'm a member, I stand up and I
	5   nominate Mr. Barr, and after, I don't know if
	6   there has to be a second or not, but let's assume
	7   that it's done.  Then Mr. Barr and whoever else is
	8   running have to go before the judges of election
	9   to see if they qualify.  Am I right?
	10        A.    Correct.
	11        Q.    Okay.  But on the District Council,
	12   that's not necessary because these -- everybody
	13   there has already been elected.  They are already
	14   there by having passed through one election
	15   process?
	16        A.    No, there is still judges of election.
	17        Q.    There are judges of election?
	18        A.    And you have to be a current member for
	19   two years.
	20        Q.    Okay.
	21        A.    In good standing.  Never been
	22   suspended.
	23        Q.    Are there judges of election at the
	24   District Council?

 
	1        A.    Yes, there is.
	2        Q.    All right.  So, the process then takes
	3   place.  We are at the District Council.  This is
	4   nomination night.  All right.  Somebody stands up
	5   and says Sergeant-at-Arms, the position is open.
	6   They are all open.
	7	    Is it like I am going to describe, I
	8   stand up and say I nominate Mr. Barr to be
	9   Sergeant-at-Arms?  Is that how it occurs?
	10        A.    Yes.
	11        Q.    There must be --
	12        A.    And there must be a second.
	13        Q.    So, there has to be warm bodies who
	14   have to stand up and say that?
	15        A.    Correct, yes.
	16        Q.    Okay.  Then what happens?  What
	17   happens?  Do the judges of election then --
	18        A.    If there is a first and second you are
	19   saying?
	20        Q.    Yes.
	21        A.    If there is a first and a second and
	22   there is opposition, even if there isn't
	23   opposition, you have to present your credentials,
	24   showing that you have been a member in good

 
	1   standing for two years and in the case of the
	2   District Council as a District Council delegate.
	3        Q.    And you are working the calling.
	4        A.    Well, as a District Council delegate.
	5   And once you prove that, then your name goes on
	6   the ballot.
	7        Q.    And then that all occurs at one time,
	8   in one meeting?
	9        A.    Yes.
	10        Q.    So, nobody -- do you take time out and
	11   go present your credentials to the judges of
	12   election?
	13        A.    Yes.  Even if there isn't opposition.
	14        Q.    Let's assume there is no opposition.
	15   Time out.  You get a person is nominated.  What do
	16   you do, take five minutes out and everybody go
	17   out -- and everybody hand the judges of election
	18   their paper or what?
	19        A.    Yes.  Once all positions are filled and
	20   all nominations are complete.
	21        Q.    Okay.
	22        A.    Not for Sergeant-of-Arms and then it's
	23   you stop for five minutes.  But through the whole
	24   District Council.

 
	1        Q.    You take the name and judges of
	2   election examine them and say, okay, everybody is
	3   qualified here and then there is usually the
	4   motion, since there is nobody running, do I hear
	5   any more and there is no more so then by a vote of

	6   acclamation those persons are elected?
	7        A.    It's asked three times if there is any
	8   opposition.
	9        Q.    That is the way it occurs.  So, it's
	10   not so much -- the only place there could be
	11   dissent if somebody went over to the judges of
	12   election and said Barr hasn't been working at the
	13   calling or we haven't seen him in two years.  What
	14   is he doing here, something like that?
	15        A.    Correct, yes.
	16        Q.    Okay.  And then the opportunity to --
	17   what we are talking about is the nomination
	18   process, there just isn't any other nominations if
	19   it's unopposed?
	20        A.    Correct.
	21        Q.    That's technically the way it works.  I
	22   was unaware th