Chicago Laborers Trusteeship Transcripts 09-18-1997

 
	1     OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER
	2   LABORERS' INTERNATIONAL UNION OF NORTH AMERICA
	3 
	4 
	5   IN RE:		 	   )

	6   TRUSTEESHIP PROCEEDINGS        ) No. 97-30T
	7   CHICAGO DISTRICT COUNCIL       )
	8 
	9 
	10		    September 18, 1997
	11		      9:32 a.m.
	12 
	13 
	14	    The hearing resumed pursuant to
	15   adjournment at the Days Inn, 644 North Lake Shore
	16   Drive Chicago, Illinois.
	17 
	18 
	19   BEFORE:  MR. PETER F. VAIRA, Hearing Officer.
	20 
	21 
	22 
	23 
	24

 
	1   PRESENT:
	2        COMEY, BOYD & LUSKIN,
	3        (1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W.,
	4        Washington, D.C.  20007-5243), by:
	5        MR. ROBERT M. THOMAS, JR.,
	6        MR. DWIGHT P. BOSTWICK,
	7	    appeared on behalf of the GEB
	8	    Attorney;
	9 
	10        CARMELL, CHARONE, WIDMER, MATHEWS & MOSS,
	11        LTD.,
	12        (225 West Washington Street, Suite 1000,
	13        Chicago, Illinois  60606), by:
	14        SHERMAN CARMELL,
	15        MR. MARTIN P. BARR,
	16        MS. SUZANNE M. LAW,
	17	    appeared on behalf of the Chicago
	18	    District Council of Laborers;
	19 
	20 
	21 
	22 
	23 
	24

 
	1   PRESENT:  (Continued)
	2        FARACI & FARACI, P.A.,
	3        (111 West Washington, Suite 1720,
	4        Chicago, Illinois  60602-2766), by:
	5        MR. PETER S. FARACI,
	6	    appeared on behalf of
	7	    John A. Matassa, Jr.
	8 
	9   ALSO PRESENT:
	10        MS. LAURIE A. HARTMAN.
	11 
	12   REPORTED BY:  DONNA. S. PAPPAS, CSR 84-2194,
	13	        JULIANA F. ZAJICEK, CSR 84-2604.
	14 
	15 
	16 
	17 
	18 
	19 
	20 
	21 
	22 
	23 
	24

 
	1        THE HEARING OFFICER:  We're going on the
	2   record.
	3	    Ladies and gentlemen, let's begin the
	4   hearing this morning.  And, Mr. --
	5        MR. BARR:  Barr.
	6        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I was going to say
	7   Barr -- Barr, and Ms. Law, Mr. Barr, you're about
	8   to proceed and you have a witness, Mr. Mann.
	9        MR. BARR:  Yes.  We call Joe Mann.
	10        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Barr, Mann, Law.
	11        MR. BARR:  We have a very simple
	12   nomenclature around here.
	13	        (WHEREUPON, the witness was duly
	14	        sworn.)
	15	        JOSEPH MANN,
	16   called as a witness herein, having been first
	17   duly sworn, was examined and testified as
	18   follows:
	19	        DIRECT EXAMINATION
	20   BY MR. BARR:
	21        Q.    Would you state your name for the
	22   record and spell it, please.
	23        A.    My name is Joseph Mann, M-a-n-n.
	24        Q.    Who are you employed by?

 
	1        A.    Laborers' Local 149.
	2        Q.    In what capacity are you employed by
	3   Local 149?
	4        A.    I am the business manager.
	5        Q.    How long have you been the business
	6   manager for Local 149?
	7        A.    Approximately 11 years.
	8        Q.    Since 1986?
	9        A.    Yes.
	10        Q.    Where is the office for Local 149?
	11        A.    It's located in Aurora, Illinois.
	12        Q.    Where is Aurora in relation to the
	13   City of Chicago?
	14        A.    It's about 40 to 45 miles west,
	15   southwest of Chicago.
	16        Q.    In what county is Aurora located in?
	17        A.    Kane County.
	18        Q.    Joe, when did you first become a
	19   member of the Laborers' Union?
	20        A.    March, 1978.
	21        Q.    What were the circumstances at the
	22   time?
	23        A.    I was going to college and I ran out
	24   of money and in January of that year, a guy asked

 
	1   me if I would be interested in working
	2   construction.
	3        Q.    And where was that?  Where were you at
	4   the time?
	5        A.    In the Aurora area.
	6        Q.    Okay.  And what did you do?
	7        A.    I told him "for that kind of wages,
	8   you bet."
	9        Q.    So were you hired then by some
	10   employer or contractor?
	11        A.    Yeah.  I was hired by a residential
	12   construction employer/developer.
	13        Q.    Do you recall the name of the
	14   employer?
	15        A.    Yes.  The name of the company was Don
	16   L. Dice, Incorporated.
	17        Q.    And what were you hired to do for that
	18   employer?
	19        A.    I was hired to be just as a general
	20   laborer, concrete and those types of duties.
	21        Q.    Were the contractor's laborers under
	22   contract with the Laborers'?
	23        A.    Yes, they were.
	24        Q.    And which local?

 
	1        A.    Local 149.
	2        Q.    So what sort of work did that
	3   contractor do?
	4        A.    Mainly residential development,
	5   building.
	6        Q.    Building homes basically?
	7        A.    Building homes.
	8        Q.    Were you an active union member for
	9   Local 149 after you became a member?
	10        A.    Shortly after becoming a member, I
	11   worked with some of the officers of the
	12   particular local, and they asked if I would be
	13   interested in coming to the meetings and getting
	14   involved.  And I agreed to do so.
	15        Q.    Did you attend the local meetings for
	16   Local 149?
	17        A.    Yes, I did.
	18        Q.    About how many members attended those
	19   meetings on a regular basis?
	20        A.    About 20 to 30.
	21        Q.    When did you first become an officer
	22   of Local 149?
	23        A.    I believe in 1983.
	24        Q.    What office did you take at that time?

 
	1        A.    Recording secretary.
	2        Q.    And how long did you hold the job of
	3   recording secretary?
	4        A.    For a couple of terms.
	5        Q.    Until about when?
	6        A.    Through 1986.
	7        Q.    What were the duties of recording
	8   secretary back then?
	9        A.    I kept the minutes and records of the
	10   meetings and correspondence.
	11        Q.    Is that a full-time or part-time
	12   position?
	13        A.    Part-time.
	14        Q.    So you continued to work as a laborer
	15   while you held the position as recording
	16   secretary?
	17        A.    Yes, I did.
	18        Q.    And did you -- what kind of work did
	19   you perform as a laborer up until '83?
	20        A.    Mostly in the concrete industry.
	21        Q.    Is that still in residential
	22   construction?
	23        A.    No.  Well, basically heavy highway and
	24   building construction, heavy highway and

 
	1   buildings, commercial, private, public.
	2        Q.    What was the next position you took
	3   after being recording secretary?

	4        A.    I was elected business manager.
	5        Q.    When did that occur?
	6        A.    1986.
	7        Q.    Was that a full-time or part-time
	8   position?
	9        A.    Full-time.
	10        Q.    So you continued working as a laborer
	11   when you were elected business manager?
	12        A.    That's correct.
	13        THE HEARING OFFICER:  That's generally
	14   the -- in smaller unions that's generally the
	15   course, isn't it, the business manager is usually
	16   only full-time?
	17        THE WITNESS:  Yes.
	18        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Sometimes
	19   secretary/treasurer, maybe not, but usually a
	20   smaller union of 400, 500, it is only the
	21   business manager is full-time, everybody else
	22   is -- they come to meetings?
	23        THE WITNESS:  That's right.
	24        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I don't know what

 
	1   point you began to get more full-time people.  At
	2   some point a full-time secretary/treasurer and
	3   then -- I don't know where that is.  That's after
	4   500 members or something.
	5   BY MR. BARR:
	6        Q.    Since 1986, has Local 149 had any
	7   other full-time Executive Board member or officer
	8   other than business manager?
	9        A.    A couple of times we have hired a
	10   full-time field rep on a temporary basis.
	11        Q.    Do you have one at the moment?
	12        A.    No, I do not.
	13        Q.    Can you tell the Hearing Officer what
	14   the duties have been since 1986 -- well, withdraw
	15   that for a minute.
	16	    Have your duties changed at all since
	17   1986 for the local?
	18        A.    No.  I am still, you know, up in the
	19   office.
	20        Q.    Tell us what you do on a typical day?
	21        A.    I get into the office about 7 o'clock
	22   and answer any messages that are there from the
	23   day before, make phone calls, talk to
	24   contractors, talk to the members, try to find a

 
	1   place for the guys to go to work if there are
	2   some guys out of work, you know, off of the list.
	3        Q.    You refer to the list.  What list is
	4   that?
	5        A.    It is the new list that's been
	6   implemented by the International.
	7        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Is that the new
	8   out-of-work list?
	9        THE WITNESS:  Yes, it is.
	10   BY MR. BARR:
	11        Q.    Go on.  What other duties?
	12        A.    And then I go out to the field, check
	13   the job sites, check the conditions, see if there
	14   is any problems with members, any complaints or
	15   if they need anything, look for work for the men
	16   and women.
	17        THE HEARING OFFICER:  How many members do
	18   you have, Joe?
	19        THE WITNESS:  400 plus.
	20   BY MR. BARR:
	21        Q.    About how many hours a day do you
	22   spend in the office performing your duties?
	23        A.    I spend probably six, six hours a
	24   day.

 
	1        Q.    And how many hours do you typically
	2   spend out in the field during the day?
	3        A.    Four hours.
	4        Q.    Now, you mentioned you have over 400
	5   members in Local 149.  Are they employed by
	6   private or public employers or both?
	7        A.    They are employed privately.
	8        Q.    And in what sort of industry do the
	9   members of Local 149 work?
	10        A.    My local -- our membership tends to
	11   work various types of construction and various
	12   types of construction industry projects, go
	13   anywhere from high-rise buildings to residential
	14   projects, to road building projects, demolition
	15   projects, asbestos, a little bit of everything.
	16        Q.    Is there a geographic jurisdiction to
	17   which Local 149 is bound?
	18        A.    Yes.  We have about a quarter of Kane
	19   County and all of Kendall.
	20        Q.    And where are those located in
	21   relation to Chicago?
	22        A.    Approximately 40 to 45 miles west,
	23   southwest of Chicago.
	24        Q.    Is there a typical wage rate that your

 
	1   members earn?
	2        A.    It's the same rate as the Chicago
	3   Council.
	4        Q.    And what is that rate?

	5        A.    22.35.
	6        Q.    Do they receive benefits on top of
	7   that?
	8        A.    That's correct.
	9        Q.    And what are the benefits that they
	10   receive on top of that wage rate?
	11        A.    Health and welfare and pension.
	12        Q.    Is there any license requirements for
	13   your members?
	14        A.    Certain individuals have licenses for
	15   different types of work, CDL license, asbestos,
	16   lead abatement, nuclear work, a little bit of
	17   everything.
	18        Q.    Do you have any nuclear plants in your
	19   jurisdiction?
	20        A.    No, I do not.
	21        Q.    You mentioned that your members
	22   receive health and welfare and pension benefits.
	23   Under what funds are your members located --
	24   covered?  Excuse me.

 
	1        A.    About a third are covered under the
	2   Chicago Laborers' Pension and Welfare Funds, and
	3   the other two-thirds are covered under the Fox
	4   Valley Laborers' Pension and Welfare Funds.
	5        Q.    Are you a trustee on any of those
	6   funds?
	7        A.    Just on the Fox Valley Laborers'
	8   Pension and Welfare Funds.
	9        Q.    And the Fox Valley fund is not any
	10   part of the Chicago District Council funds,
	11   correct?
	12        A.    No, it is not.
	13        Q.    How many collective bargaining
	14   agreements is your local a party to?
	15        MR. THOMAS:  Mr. Vaira, at this point I'd
	16   like to be heard.  I'm sure this is very
	17   interesting and we'd all like to know more about
	18   149 in another context, but the witness is called
	19   here to talk about his relationship and his
	20   knowledge of the District Council and I think to
	21   the extent that we are about to launch into
	22   another half hour of what 149 does and what
	23   Mr. Mann does for 149, I think we could all
	24   assume that that's going to be neutral as it

 
	1   applies to the District Council, so I'd ask that
	2   we move on to that topic.
	3        MR. BARR:  I have two responses, Mr. Vaira.
	4   One, I think it is important to know the
	5   background that each individual witness brings as
	6   a witness.  It's important to know where he's
	7   worked and what his experience has been in
	8   relation to the Council.  It's important to know
	9   things about his local so that it can be seen how
	10   his local is impacted by the Council.
	11        MR. THOMAS:  Well, if we could move on to
	12   those topics, that would be great.
	13        MR. BARR:  I'm not quite done.
	14	    We have a few more questions generally
	15   about how the local works and then we'll be
	16   dealing with how the local has been assisted by
	17   the Council, similar to the way we asked the
	18   witnesses yesterday.
	19        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I assumed that you
	20   were going to get there as you did.  I think
	21   you're following the same pattern, and if I
	22   remember yesterday, you went into some licensing
	23   and you sit on a board and then you began talking
	24   about his relationship.  So if you're going to go

 
	1   another few minutes to fill this in, and you go
	2   on.
	3	    I can understand your concern, too,
	4   Mr. Thomas.  I think he's pretty close to putting
	5   this in.
	6        MR. BARR:  In fact, this subject matter of
	7   contracts directly involves the District
	8   Council.
	9   BY MR. BARR:
	10        Q.    Joe, I asked how many contracts is
	11   your local a party to?
	12        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Let's do this.  It's
	13   just a matter of form.  And even though we're in
	14   a Laborers' union meeting and we're all together,
	15   I don't want this to look like the old south
	16   where the witnesses get called by their first
	17   name.  He's a real person and he's a bona fide
	18   witness, so even though you know him, even though
	19   you know him, one of the great criticisms of the
	20   system in the old south, when they put a minority
	21   on the stand, it's sort of demeaning by calling
	22   him Jack, Joe.  I know we're not trying to do
	23   that, but it's a formal proceeding and I think we
	24   ought to all refer to him as mister.

 
	1        MR. BARR:  That would be fine.  I'd be happy
	2   to.
	3   BY MR. BARR:
	4        Q.    Mr. Mann, how many contracts is Local
	5   149 a party to?
	6        A.    Two.
	7        Q.    What are those two contracts?
	8        A.    The Chicago Laborers District Council
	9   agreement and the Fox Valley Laborers' agreement.
	10        Q.    Dealing with the Chicago District
	11   Council agreement, do you know who negotiates
	12   that agreement?
	13        A.    Yes.  There's a bargaining committee
	14   set up by the District Council to address that.
	15        Q.    And who does the District Council
	16   bargain that contract with?
	17        A.    MARBA and the associations that belong
	18   to MARBA.
	19        Q.    Those are employer associations?
	20        A.    Yes, that is.
	21        Q.    And what sort of contract does -- in
	22   form, I'm referring to, does the District Council
	23   execute with MARBA?
	24        A.    They execute a memorandum of

 
	1   agreement.
	2        Q.    About how many of your local's members
	3   are covered by the District Council and MARBA
	4   agreement?
	5        A.    That agreement is a standard agreement
	6   form that's executed for all employers that we
	7   work with.
	8        Q.    Do some of your members fall under the
	9   District Council agreement and some under the Fox
	10   Valley Association agreement?
	11        A.    Well, some of my members work in the
	12   Chicago area, which falls outside the -- and they
	13   may have a different set of work rules as opposed
	14   to what the other membership may work in the Fox
	15   Valley, which, again, is another set of work
	16   rules sometimes.
	17        Q.    Okay.  Now, who negotiates on behalf
	18   of Local 149 for the Fox Valley General
	19   Contractors Association?
	20        A.    We have three locals in Fox Valley and
	21   the three business managers from those locals
	22   negotiate with employment, construction
	23   employers.
	24        Q.    Who are the other two locals?

 
	1        A.    582 and 1035.
	2        Q.    And do they belong to the Chicago
	3   District Council?
	4        A.    Yes, they do.
	5        Q.    Have you personally negotiated the
	6   contract with the Fox Valley General Contractors
	7   Association?
	8        A.    Yes, I've sat in on negotiations.
	9        Q.    For how many negotiations have you
	10   done so?
	11        A.    Just a couple.
	12        Q.    Have you ever been on the bargaining
	13   team for the District Council with MARBA?
	14        A.    No, I have not.
	15        Q.    Are there any differences between the
	16   two contracts, the would be negotiated by the
	17   Chicago District Council and the one negotiated
	18   with the Fox Valley General Contractors
	19   Association?
	20        A.    There's a few terms or working rules
	21   that are minor, but they are different.
	22        Q.    What about the economics, is there any
	23   difference?
	24        A.    The moneys are the same as far as what

 
	1   the guy earns and the benefits.
	2        Q.    You mentioned that wage rate of 22.35
	3   an hour earlier.  Does that also apply to the Fox
	4   Valley General Contractors Association an
	5   agreement?
	6        A.    Yes, it does.
	7        Q.    Now, Joe, in your opinion, how would
	8   you describe the wages and economic package that
	9   have been included in the collective bargaining
	10   agreements negotiated by the Chicago District
	11   Council?
	12        A.    Those benefits and wages are
	13   outstanding.  In order to raise a family in this
	14   area, you need to have that type of income to do
	15   that, and those are very, very important.
	16        Q.    Mr. Mann, I'd like to ask you about
	17   assistance you might have received from the
	18   District Council in the area of jurisdictional
	19   disputes.  Has your local had any jurisdictional
	20   disputes in the past five years for which you
	21   needed Council assistance?
	22        A.    Yes.
	23        Q.    Which one -- well, how many have you
	24   had in the past five years?

 
	1        A.    We have had two.
	2        Q.    And when did the more recent one
	3   occur?
	4        A.    A couple of years ago we got one with
	5   the roofers' union and we had one before that
	6   with the electricians.
	7        Q.    Starting with the more recent one --
	8   well, excuse me.  The one that occurred longer
	9   ago, which local of the electricians was involved
	10   in that dispute?
	11        A.    It was Local 461 out of Aurora.  It
	12   was the Fermilab National Accelerator.
	13        Q.    Where is that located?
	14        A.    Batavia.
	15        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Is that IBEW?
	16        THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
	17   BY MR. BARR:
	18        Q.    And what was the nature of the dispute
	19   between your local and Local 461?
	20        A.    I had a signatory contractor that was
	21   doing the right-of-way work for underground
	22   utilities around the ring and the electricians
	23   thought that they should have the job and we told
	24   them it wasn't their work.

 
	1        Q.    Well, had there been any a tradition
	2   with respect to that sort of work in your area?
	3        A.    Yes, yes.  Chicago region enjoys the
	4   fact that we -- that laborers pretty much do all
	5   of the right-of-way utility duct work,
	6   underground work when it comes to those types of
	7   utilities.
	8        Q.    And who is the contractor or the
	9   employer involved in the work?
	10        A.    It was a Whittaker Excavating and they
	11   were the employer.
	12        Q.    Does Local 149 have a collective
	13   bargaining agreement with Whittaker?
	14        A.    Yes, we did.
	15        Q.    Did Local 461?
	16        A.    No.
	17        Q.    So did you personally try to resolve
	18   the matter yourself between your local and Local
	19   461?
	20        A.    In the very initial stages, I did.
	21   They were upset that laborers were putting in,
	22   you know, conduit.  We weren't pulling the wire,
	23   but we were putting in the conduit and they were
	24   complaining, so they contacted their

 
	1   international.  I contacted the District
	2   Council.  I talked to Joe.
	3        Q.    That's Joe Lombardo?
	4        A.    Yes.
	5        Q.    And how did you contact Joe?
	6        A.    And then Joe and I had some telephone
	7   discussions regarding the project, and because
	8   the IBEW local filed a jurisdictional with their
	9   international, Joe contacted our regional
	10   office.
	11        Q.    Regional office, what does that refer
	12   to?
	13        A.    The Chicago Laborers regional office.
	14        Q.    Where is that located?
	15        A.    In the suburbs.  I am not sure exactly
	16   which town.
	17        Q.    And did the regional office send a
	18   representative to any meeting that you held?
	19        A.    Yes, they did.
	20        Q.    Was a meeting held as a result of your
	21   telephone calls?
	22        A.    From mine and Joe's.  Joe asked their
	23   help in supporting us on getting this -- keeping
	24   the work.

 
	1        Q.    And was a meeting then held with the
	2   electricians?
	3        A.    Yes.  We met on the job site.
	4        Q.    And who attended the meeting for the
	5   electricians?
	6        A.    Jerry O'Connor and the local agents.
	7        Q.    And who for the Laborers'?
	8        A.    Myself and Bruce Monaco.
	9        Q.    And was Joe present?
	10        A.    No, he was not.
	11        Q.    You mentioned that there were two such
	12   disputes.  The one that was more recent, who did
	13   that involve?
	14        A.    It involved the roofers' union, Local
	15   11, the same area -- at the same project.
	16        Q.    You mean at the accelerator?
	17        A.    Yes.
	18        Q.    Who was the employer or contractor in
	19   that situation?
	20        A.    Wilfreds Construction.
	21        Q.    I am sorry.  Can you spell that for
	22   the court reporter?
	23        A.    W-i-l-f-r-e-d-s.
	24        Q.    And which local -- other union was

 
	1   involved in this dispute?
	2        A.    That was the roofers' union and they
	3   contended that the concrete tunnel -- where the
	4   atoms were sitting around, they contended that
	5   that was a building and it should be roofers to
	6   do the waterproofing.  And I called Joe and asked
	7   his thoughts on that.
	8        Q.    And was a meeting set up as a result
	9   of your contact with Joe Lombardo?
	10        A.    Yes.
	11        Q.    And who attended the meeting for each
	12   side?
	13        A.    Well, prior to the actual meeting, we,
	14   again, had a lot of telephone discussions and Joe
	15   would talk to the roofers and they'd talk to him,
	16   they'd talk to me and, again, we had possession
	17   of the work.  They thought we should not have any
	18   of the work.  And Joe offered a compromise to try
	19   to work the situation through, and they told us,
	20   no, it is not possible to do that.  So we went
	21   ahead and claimed the work.
	22        Q.    And what happened after that?
	23        A.    We met at the job site and it was an
	24   official claiming of the work between the

 
	1   international representatives.
	2        Q.    And did you attend that -- were you
	3   present at the job site when they claimed the
	4   work?
	5        A.    Yes.
	6        Q.    Did Joe attend that too?
	7        A.    No.
	8        Q.    Now, in your communications during the
	9   two incidents with the Council and Joe Lombardo
	10   in particular, how did you rate the assistance
	11   that Joe provided you in arranging meetings and
	12   getting the resolution?
	13        A.    Very supportive.  It is our members,
	14   it is their jobs, our work and we stay behind it
	15   until we get the -- unless we are told otherwise,
	16   and he was very helpful, and he did talk to the
	17   other locals that were involved from the other
	18   side, other unions, and they didn't want to
	19   concede anything.  They wanted it all for
	20   themselves, so.
	21        Q.    What was Joe's attitude throughout the
	22   communications?
	23        A.    If they did not -- was not willing to
	24   reach some type of compromise that would

 
	1   accommodate all concerned parties to the benefit
	2   of everybody, then that's fine.  We'll just leave
	3   them out of it entirely.
	4        Q.    Now, in your experience as the
	5   business manager for Local 149, have you been
	6   involved in any strike situation where the
	7   Council was involved?
	8        A.    Yes.  In 1991.
	9        Q.    Was that a local strike?
	10        A.    That was a District Council strike.
	11        Q.    And can you describe what that strike
	12   was about, why it occurred?
	13        A.    Our contract was up and we were
	14   looking for more money for the membership and
	15   their families.
	16        Q.    So it was over economics?
	17        A.    Economics.
	18        Q.    And who coordinated the strike effort
	19   on behalf of the Council?
	20        A.    Joe Lombardo and the other officers of
	21   the Council.
	22        Q.    Can you describe the activities that
	23   Joe was engaged in, he and the other officers who
	24   were involved, to your knowledge?

 
	1        A.    Primarily they coordinated the efforts
	2   of the picket lines throughout the various nine
	3   counties, different job sites, making sure we can
	4   maintain a strong presence at each picket.  There
	5   was probably a hundred of them or more.
	6        Q.    I am sorry.  100 locations?
	7        A.    At least.
	8        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Locations.
	9   BY THE WITNESS:
	10        A.    I would think at least that.  And to
	11   make sure that we maintain a strong presence and
	12   that the information, you know, got out to the
	13   men to make sure we weren't too disruptive or
	14   cause too many problems.  We want a disciplined
	15   effort to get our point across.
	16   BY MR. BARR:
	17        Q.    So this covered the entire nine county
	18   area throughout Chicago?
	19        A.    Nine county area.
	20        Q.    Were there any locals within the
	21   Council that were not involved, to your
	22   knowledge?
	23        A.    I believe that all locals were well
	24   represented.  And I would like to add a lot of

 
	1   times when unions go on strike, a lot of the
	2   public sometimes is not very happy with it.  But
	3   I encountered a lot of public sentiment that was
	4   in our favor, and it got to the point even some
	5   of the farmers, which are -- notoriously they
	6   don't like unions, were very, very supportive on
	7   our efforts.  And it was in the local media quite
	8   a bit about the strike.
	9        Q.    To what do you attribute that?
	10        A.    I think that because a lot of people
	11   starting out in their lives, they work in
	12   laborers, and either they are going onto college
	13   to become lawyers or they are doing something
	14   elsewhere.  They need the employment.  That's the
	15   craft they usually -- they a lot of times come
	16   to.  And since we provide good benefits and good
	17   wages, a lot of people in the general public have
	18   worked as laborers.
	19        Q.    Has the Council provided your local
	20   with any assistance in other areas, such as
	21   organizing?
	22        A.    Yes.  Yes, they have.
	23        Q.    Are you familiar with a company named
	24   GDC?

 
	1        A.    Yes, I am.
	2        Q.    Did that involve organizing?
	3        A.    Well, they were a contractor that was
	4   based out of Missouri that brought up work crews
	5   out of Missouri and they were attempting to steel
	6   our work and --
	7        Q.    When did this happen?
	8        A.    Last year.
	9        Q.    Do you recall what month or what time
	10   of the year?
	11        A.    Actually, it went from spring through
	12   winter.
	13        Q.    And what sort of work was this
	14   contractor involved in?
	15        A.    They were attempting to put in utility
	16   work at a much lower rate than what we had
	17   established in the area.
	18        Q.    And how did you first learn about this
	19   contractor known as GDC?
	20        A.    I believe the information came through
	21   the District Council and they were aware of the
	22   fact that these people were going to come in and
	23   start working in our different areas and they
	24   wanted us to be aware of it, so it wouldn't be a

 
	1   problem, because they would replace our local
	2   contractors in doing the work.
	3        Q.    Did the Council provide any picketing
	4   assistance out in your area?
	5        A.    The District Council directed all
	6   locals to help the locals who -- area where these
	7   crews were working.
	8        Q.    And this was your area, Local 149?
	9        A.    Well, I think all the -- a large part
	10   of the Chicago region was affected by it and all
	11   the locals pulled together.
	12        Q.    Did Local 2 have any involvement in
	13   the picketing out in your area?
	14        A.    Yes, they did.
	15        Q.    And who is the business manager of
	16   Local 2?
	17        A.    John Matassa, Jr.
	18        Q.    And did they send anyone to assist?
	19        A.    John requested that his agents, even
	20   though they were from more towards the city, come
	21   out and work with us and support us on a daily
	22   basis to help.
	23        Q.    And did they do so?
	24        A.    Yes, they did.  They were very good.

 
	1        Q.    For what length of time did they help
	2   you on a daily basis?
	3        A.    I think they were out there most of
	4   the season just like the rest of the guys.
	5        Q.    When you say season, what are you
	6   referring to?
	7        A.    I'm referring to through at least
	8   April or May through the fall months.
	9        Q.    What about organizing activity, do you
	10   recall any instance where the Council has
	11   provided assistance with organizing activity?
	12        A.    Yes.  We encountered a year before
	13   that, a company out of Kansas came in doing the
	14   same thing for a lot less rates and we started a
	15   salting campaign.
	16        Q.    What is salting?
	17        A.    Where you have men go from the union,
	18   a couple of people that are somewhat trained to
	19   go to work for the nonunion to sort of infiltrate
	20   their ranks and try to work on getting the
	21   company to recognize you as a bargaining agent.
	22        Q.    And did you ask for any help from the
	23   Council with respect to salting?
	24        A.    Yes, I did.

 
	1        Q.    Would you tell us -- who did you ask?
	2        A.    I asked Joey and Bruno.
	3        Q.    And what happened as a result of your
	4   request?
	5        A.    We had some discussion and they said
	6   we'll support you and commit ourselves to helping
	7   you in any way possible.
	8        Q.    So did you, in fact, arrange for some
	9   salts to infiltrate that company?
	10        A.    Yes.  I was successful in getting two
	11   guys to go to work for that company.
	12        Q.    Who paid for that effort?  Who paid
	13   the salts?  Do they get a union rate when they do
	14   that?
	15        A.    The local and the District Council
	16   subsidized the difference on wages and benefits.
	17        Q.    These past two episodes you've
	18   referred to with GDC and the salting campaign,
	19   how do you assess the type of assistance you
	20   received from the Council in those cases?
	21        A.    Very supportive, very strong support
	22   from the District Council and its membership and
	23   its delegates, the officers from the board.
	24   These were important issues, these companies

 
	1   coming in from out of state like this attacking
	2   our rates, and very thought out and very
	3   professional discussions and ideas working with
	4   these two projects.
	5        Q.    Mr. Mann, how many delegates does
	6   Local 149 have in the District Council at this
	7   time?
	8        A.    Currently we have one.
	9        Q.    And how many is it authorized to have?
	10        A.    Two.
	11        Q.    And why do you only have one at the
	12   time?
	13        A.    We're trying to fill a vacancy.
	14        Q.    How long have you been a delegate to
	15   the Council?
	16        A.    Since 1983.
	17        Q.    Since you've become a delegate in '83,
	18   do you attend Council meetings?
	19        A.    Yes.
	20        Q.    How frequently do you attend?
	21        A.    80, 90 percent of the time.
	22        Q.    Where are they located, the meetings?
	23        A.    Diversey Avenue in Chicago.
	24        Q.    How often are they held?

 
	1        A.    The District Council meetings are held
	2   once a month.
	3        Q.    How would you describe how well the
	4   meetings are attended by the delegates?
	5        A.    Full attendance.
	6        Q.    In terms of a number, can you put a
	7   number to that, an estimate?  Well, are all the
	8   locals represented, to begin with?
	9        A.    Yes.
	10        Q.    And can you estimate how many attend
	11   from all the locals?
	12        A.    50 or more.
	13        Q.    Can you take us through a typical
	14   meeting and describe how it's conducted and what
	15   sort of business is performed?
	16        A.    The meetings open with a roll call and
	17   attendance is taken and then the outline from the
	18   International Constitution is followed.
	19        Q.    Go on.
	20        A.    And then we go through the different
	21   parts of that outline regarding the minutes, the
	22   financial report, motions are made and seconded
	23   and carried through, and we just continue all the
	24   way down with old business, new business, report

 
	1   of delegates, committees.
	2        Q.    What sort of old business and new
	3   business is discussed at a typical Council
	4   meeting?
	5        A.    Maybe something that would make
	6   mention of, like a problem with another trade,
	7   like the operating engineers or the carpenters.
	8   It would be like old business, something carried
	9   over from the previous meeting, that would
	10   address it, an update to the current time,
	11   anything that would involve complaints that maybe
	12   locals might have about something going on in the
	13   industry or the field or ideas.  There's various
	14   issues.
	15        Q.    Are delegates allowed to express their
	16   opinions at Council meetings?
	17        A.    Absolutely.
	18        Q.    And do they do so?
	19        A.    Yes.
	20        Q.    Do you recall any instances where
	21   dissent or disagreement has been raised on the
	22   Council floor about some issue?
	23        A.    I can recall one that I was involved
	24   with only because I carry some landscapers, and

 
	1   in the Fox Valley, we have a little bit lower
	2   rate, and the question was brought to the
	3   attention of the Council, does the District
	4   Council and its delegates and its locals want to
	5   work with this landscaping industry or do they
	6   prefer to stay away from this type of -- it
	7   seemed to have a lot of conflicts with it.  And
	8   it was a lot of discussion back and forth.  Some
	9   locals had more dealings with landscapers, some
	10   locals didn't have any.  And we reached a general
	11   consensus at the meeting after quite a bit of
	12   discussion basically to leave it alone.
	13        Q.    Leave it alone, meaning --
	14        A.    Not to deal with it.  We didn't want
	15   to -- we did not want it to overlap into our
	16   construction industry.
	17        Q.    So that the Council delegates agreed
	18   to keep jurisdiction over the landscape industry
	19   or to give it up?
	20        A.    They did not want to really have
	21   anything to do with the landscape industry.
	22        Q.    You mentioned earlier that the Council
	23   negotiates a collective bargaining agreement on
	24   behalf of the locals that belong to the Council.

 
	1   Do you recall if during the
	2   delegates -- excuse me -- during the Council
	3   meetings, the delegates are allowed input into
	4   what proposals should be made for inclusion into
	5   the new contract?
	6        A.    Every time there is an increase in
	7   wages, there's always an allocation for benefits,

	8   money set aside for the benefits, and there's
	9   always discussion amongst all the delegates,
	10   there are surveys provided to find out which
	11   direction the delegates would like to allocate
	12   these increases.
	13        Q.    And where does this take place?
	14        A.    At the Council.
	15        Q.    This discussion?
	16        A.    District Council.
	17        Q.    At a regular Council meeting?
	18        A.    Yes.
	19        Q.    How often does the District Council
	20   negotiate an agreement with MARBA?  At least
	21   since 1986, how frequently have they?
	22        A.    A couple times.
	23        Q.    And have they followed this procedure
	24   of discussion and input for each occasion?

 
	1        A.    Yes.
	2        Q.    I'd like to direct your attention to
	3   Council Exhibit 38-A and B, and ask you if you've
	4   seen these documents which bear the title
	5   Informational Survey.
	6        THE HEARING OFFICER:  That's the
	7   questionnaire.
	8        MR. BARR:  These were admitted into evidence
	9   yesterday.
	10   BY MR. BARR:
	11        Q.    Have you seen those surveys or
	12   questionnaires, Mr. Mann?
	13        A.    Yes, I have.
	14        Q.    Under what circumstances have you seen
	15   them?
	16        A.    The last couple of increases, these
	17   have been given to us to -- given to the
	18   delegates to look at to see how they would like
	19   to allocate the increase.
	20        Q.    Who provided these to the delegates?
	21        A.    The Executive Board.
	22        Q.    Anyone in particular on the Executive
	23   Board?
	24        A.    Joe and Bruno.

 
	1        Q.    And are the delegates instructed or
	2   requested to do anything with the surveys?
	3        A.    Yeah.  They're to take the surveys
	4   back with them to their locals and to return them
	5   after they figure out how they want to allocate
	6   the increase.
	7        Q.    Has your local done some?
	8        A.    Yes.
	9        Q.    There has been testimony throughout

	10   the hearing about appointments made to positions
	11   either on the Council Executive Board or to
	12   Health and Welfare or Pension Funds administered
	13   through the District Council.
	14	    Do you recall that those appointments
	15   have been brought to the Council floor for
	16   consideration by the delegates?
	17        A.    They are always brought to the floor.
	18        Q.    Can you describe for us how that is
	19   done, who presents it, what does he say and what
	20   happens at that point?
	21        A.    Bruno and Joe bring to the delegates'
	22   attention if there is a vacancy that needs to be
	23   filled and the people from the floor will
	24   nominate -- or vote yes or no, if they approve

 
	1   these filling of vacancies.
	2        Q.    How do they vote yes or no?
	3        A.    By aye or -- aye or nay.
	4        Q.    You mentioned a strike that occurred
	5   in 1991 Council-wide.  Did the Council bring to
	6   the delegates before calling the strike the
	7   question of whether such a strike should be
	8   called?
	9        A.    Yes, they did.
	10        Q.    And, again, tell us how that
	11   happened?  Who brought it up?
	12        A.    The officers of the board and Joe
	13   Lombardo and Bruno.  They indicated to us they
	14   were having problems with their negotiation,
	15   whether management was willing to accept the
	16   conditions that we were setting forth or wanting
	17   to give an increase.  And the delegates would
	18   attend a meeting and they would give their
	19   thoughts on it, what we should or should not do,
	20   and the last one we all decided as a group,
	21   totally -- you know, always -- on that one we
	22   were all in favor of going out on strike.
	23        Q.    This was in 1991?
	24        A.    Yes.

 
	1        Q.    How long did that strike last?
	2        A.    About a week.
	3        Q.    And at the end of that strike, was it
	4   brought to the delegates' consideration whether
	5   the strike should be called off?
	6        A.    I believe there was a meeting towards
	7   the end of the week where we were getting closer
	8   with the negotiations and the bargaining
	9   committee let us know particulars of how close we
	10   were and what seemed to be a problem or not a
	11   problem.  They anticipated, they thought that we
	12   were going to conclude the strike possibly before
	13   the beginning of the following Monday.
	14        Q.    And did it conclude then?
	15        A.    Yes, it did.
	16        Q.    And did the delegates vote on whether
	17   it should conclude by the following Monday?
	18        A.    Yes.
	19        Q.    Since you became a delegate in 1983,
	20   have you participated in elections held by the
	21   District Council for the positions within the
	22   Council?
	23        A.    Yes, I have.
	24        Q.    Do you recall how many you have

 
	1   attended since that time?
	2        A.    Just I think I believe two or three.
	3        Q.    And in those two or three occasions,
	4   have you received advance notice of the
	5   nomination meetings?
	6        A.    Yes.  The notices are always mailed to
	7   the local.
	8        Q.    Did you, in fact, attend the meetings
	9   then for the two or three?
	10        A.    Yes.
	11        Q.    Can you please tell us what happened
	12   at the nominations meeting?
	13        MR. THOMAS:  Could we specify which one we
	14   are talking about?
	15   BY MR. BARR:
	16        Q.    Well, were the meetings run in a
	17   different manner or a similar manner each time?
	18        A.    Each time that I have been at the
	19   meetings, there was a nomination held.
	20        Q.    Were they the same or different
	21   though?
	22        A.    No.  They were the same.  Nominations
	23   come from the floor.
	24        Q.    How then were they conducted each

 
	1   time?
	2        A.    Nominations would come from the floor
	3   and the people become elected.
	4        Q.    And who ran the meeting?  Who ran the
	5   last meeting?  The last election was in 1994.
	6        A.    Usually the -- Bruno or Joe will turn
	7   the meeting over to an attorney.
	8        Q.    And before Bruno became business
	9   manager in 1994, who ran the nominations
	10   meetings?
	11        A.    Ernie Kumerow.
	12        THE HEARING OFFICER:  So what you are saying
	13   is that the nomination meetings is Mr. Bruno
	14   Caruso became business manager, he sent out
	15   notices, the next meeting is going to be a
	16   nomination election meeting, you do it one time,
	17   because -- you don't -- there is no paper ballot
	18   of the business manager, it is by voice, right?
	19        THE WITNESS:  Well, at the nomination there
	20   is no opposition, everybody --
	21        THE HEARING OFFICER:  It is still a voice
	22   vote?
	23        THE WITNESS:  Yes, that's correct.
	24        THE HEARING OFFICER:  So what you are saying

 
	1   is that normally, since Mr. Caruso has come in, a
	2   notice is sent out ahead of time that next month
	3   is going to be the nomination meeting?
	4        THE WITNESS:  That the two -- since I have
	5   been a delegate, there has always been a notice
	6   mailed out and it is the same process that I have
	7   been involved with.  It hasn't changed any.
	8   BY MR. BARR:
	9        Q.    Mr. Mann, during any of the
	10   nominations meetings or the period just before
	11   those, since you have been a delegate in 1983,
	12   have you been coerced or threatened from running
	13   from office yourself?
	14        A.    No.
	15        Q.    Have you been coerced or threatened
	16   since becoming a delegate from nominating another
	17   delegate for office?
	18        A.    No.
	19        Q.    Have you felt inhibited for any reason
	20   from either nominating -- excuse me -- running
	21   for office yourself to the Council or nominating
	22   another delegate since 1983?
	23        A.    No, I have not.
	24        Q.    Have you heard that any other delegate

 
	1   has been threatened or coerced in some fashion
	2   from either running for office to the Council
	3   himself or nominating another delegate for
	4   office?
	5        A.    No, I have not.
	6        Q.    Are you presently on the Council
	7   Executive Board?
	8        A.    Yes, I am.
	9        Q.    When did you become an Executive Board
	10   member to the Council?
	11        A.    I believe in 1995.
	12        Q.    And since you became a member of the
	13   Executive Board, have you attended Executive
	14   Board meetings?
	15        A.    Yes, I have.
	16        Q.    How often are they held?
	17        A.    Once a month.
	18        Q.    When are they held in relation to the
	19   Council-wide meeting where the delegates all
	20   attend?
	21        A.    Prior to the regular meeting.
	22        Q.    And how long do the Executive Board
	23   meetings last?
	24        A.    About an hour.

 
	1        Q.    Are the meetings actually chaired or
	2   run by anyone in a formal fashion?
	3        A.    I think Bruno or Joe will ask
	4   questions or throw out, "what do you guys think
	5   about this or think about that."  It is pretty
	6   much a general discussion.
	7        Q.    And to what extent are all of the
	8   members of the board allowed to express their
	9   opinions about the issues that are discussed?
	10        A.    Whatever you want to -- however you
	11   feel, you are supposed to -- you should -- we
	12   express it.
	13        Q.    What sort of issues are discussed at a
	14   typical Executive Board meeting?
	15        A.    Well, if there is problems with other
	16   crafts, how we should -- how should we respond,
	17   should we do things as far as working with
	18   carpenters or the operators.  If locals have
	19   problems, have encountered problems on the job
	20   sites, difficulties, need assistance, we discuss
	21   those issues.
	22        Q.    Have you ever been somehow intimidated
	23   or felt inhibited from expressing your opinions
	24   at the Executive Board meetings?

 
	1        A.    No.
	2        Q.    Since you became a delegate in 1983,
	3   have you seen or observed anything which caused
	4   you to think that the Council has been run by
	5   persons involved with organized crime?
	6        A.    No.
	7        Q.    Have you seen or heard anything since
	8   becoming a delegate that led you to believe that
	9   the Council was not a democratically run
	10   organization?
	11        A.    No.
	12        Q.    Have you seen anything since -- or
	13   heard anything since becoming a delegate that led
	14   you to believe that the Council discouraged
	15   delegates from running for office or nominating
	16   other delegates?
	17        A.    No.
	18        Q.    Have you seen anything since becoming
	19   a delegate that led you to believe that the
	20   Council discouraged its delegates from expressing
	21   their opinions?
	22        A.    No.
	23        Q.    Do you have any opinion as to why
	24   there has been no contested election for office

 
	1   since you became a delegate in 1983?
	2        A.    I think everybody agrees with whoever
	3   is nominated, that they think that's a good
	4   candidate.  They support that.
	5        Q.    There has been some opinion expressed
	6   during this hearing that delegates are too afraid
	7   to voice dissent or opposition to the council.
	8   Do you agree or disagree with that?
	9        A.    Rephrase that.
	10        Q.    Do you agree or disagree with an
	11   opinion expressed during the hearing that
	12   delegates are too afraid to speak their minds?
	13        A.    That's not true.
	14        Q.    Why do you say that?
	15        A.    Because everybody has a free voice to
	16   speak and we do speak.  Everybody can debate or
	17   discuss anything they want to and there is no one
	18   to sit around and tell them any different.
	19   Everything -- we discuss things as a group for
	20   the benefit of the whole group and it is always
	21   the general consensus.  We all pretty much agree
	22   because we are all working to doing the same
	23   thing, helping our friends, our families, our
	24   members that are in the construction industry.

 
	1   That's what we are all about.
	2        MR. BARR:  One moment, please.
	3	        (Short pause.)
	4        MR. BARR:  Nothing further.
	5        THE HEARING OFFICER:  What is your position
	6   on the Executive Board of the Council?
	7        THE WITNESS:  Executive Board member.
	8        THE HEARING OFFICER:  You are what they call
	9   at large.  How many board members other than the
	10   regular officers; three?
	11        THE WITNESS:  Yes, I believe there is a
	12   couple of board members and there is regular
	13   officers.
	14        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Five or two -- a total
	15   of seven, right?
	16        THE WITNESS:  (Nodding head.)
	17	        CROSS EXAMINATION
	18   BY MR. THOMAS:
	19        Q.    Good morning, Mr. Mann.
	20        A.    Good morning.
	21        Q.    You and I have never met or spoken,
	22   have we?
	23        A.    No.
	24        Q.    My name is Bob Thomas.  I am with the

 
	1   GEB Attorney.  And I'd like to ask you a few
	2   questions about your direct examination
	3   testimony.
	4	    As an initial matter, let me ask you,
	5   how much do you know about the allegations of
	6   this trusteeship hearing?  Do you know what this
	7   is about?
	8        A.    I really wasn't aware of too much
	9   until the hearings started.
	10        Q.    And what's your present understanding
	11   of what this hearing is about?
	12        A.    That they believe we are not running
	13   our affairs correctly.
	14        Q.    So based on what you have heard from
	15   the --
	16        THE HEARING OFFICER:  There is a couple of
	17   fellows raising their --
	18        A SPEAKER:  We can't hear him.  He is too
	19   far away from the mic.
	20        MR. THOMAS:  You can't hear me or the
	21   witness?
	22        A SPEAKER:  I can't hear you.
	23        MR. THOMAS:  With all deference, I really
	24   don't like to sit when I am asking my questions.

 
	1   But I'll do my best.
	2        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Otherwise they get to
	3   hear the answers and not the questions.
	4        MR. THOMAS:  The answers are much more
	5   interesting than the questions anyway.
	6   BY MR. THOMAS:
	7        Q.    So your understanding is that the --
	8   all this is about is whether or not the union is
	9   running its affairs properly?
	10        A.    That's correct.
	11        Q.    You have not read the complaint?
	12        A.    Just what's been sent to our offices
	13   through the GEB's offices.
	14        Q.    So you have read the complaint?
	15        A.    Yes.
	16        Q.    You are aware that the complaint makes
	17   very specific allegations about mob or LCN
	18   influence?
	19        A.    Yes.
	20        Q.    So would you modify your earlier
	21   answer to that extent, when I asked you what this
	22   hearing is about?
	23        A.    It is about allegations that we don't
	24   run our affairs properly.

 
	1        Q.    Well, it's also about, is it not,
	2   whether or not this union is infiltrated by the
	3   Mob?
	4        A.    That's in the Complaint.
	5        Q.    All right.  So would you agree with me
	6   that essentially those issues can be analyzed
	7   separately?
	8        MR. BARR:  Objection.  This is sort of
	9   ambiguous and perhaps legal.
	10        MR. THOMAS:  I think he can understand
	11   perfectly what I'm getting at.
	12        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Do you understand the
	13   question, Mr. Mann?
	14        THE WITNESS:  No, I don't.
	15   BY MR. THOMAS:
	16        Q.    The question of whether the Mob has
	17   infiltrated this union is a separate question
	18   from whether or not the union negotiates good
	19   contracts or has good benefits?
	20        A.    I guess.
	21        Q.    That sounds right to you, doesn't it?
	22        MR. BARR:  I have an objection, Mr. Vaira.
	23   These are legal --
	24        MR. THOMAS:  Let him answer the question.

 
	1   It is not a legal question.  It's a factual
	2   question.
	3        MR. BARR:  I'm speaking to Mr. Vaira,
	4   Mr. Thomas.
	5        MR. THOMAS:  I beg your pardon.
	6        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Gentlemen, gentlemen.
	7   The question, maybe I can rephrase it, is there's
	8   an allegation in the Complaint, many allegations,
	9   that this union is overrun and affiliated with
	10   organized crime.  That's one issue.  Mr. Thomas
	11   asked you that the other issue, at least he says
	12   it is, is whether or not the union is being run
	13   correctly, it's being run in a businesslike
	14   manner as a union should, and his question is,
	15   can you separate those two issues, whether the
	16   union is being run correctly and whether it's
	17   affiliated with the Mob.  That's his question.
	18        THE WITNESS:  There's two issues.
	19   BY MR. THOMAS:
	20        Q.    Okay.  So you agree with what I said?
	21        THE HEARING OFFICER:  He said there's two
	22   issues.
	23   BY THE WITNESS:
	24        A.    I didn't agree.  I said there's two

 
	1   issues.
	2   BY MR. THOMAS:
	3        Q.    And you can look at those questions
	4   separately, can't you?
	5        A.    Yes.
	6        Q.    That's all I'm asking.  A very simple
	7   question.
	8	    You indicated you have been a delegate
	9   since 1983, is that right?
	10        A.    That's correct.
	11        Q.    So you've been in the Chicago area for
	12   at least that long, correct?
	13        A.    That's correct.
	14        Q.    And you read the papers?
	15        A.    Sometimes.
	16        Q.    Okay.  And are you saying to us that
	17   since 1983, you've never seen any of the Chicago
	18   District Council names mentioned in public
	19   articles relating to Mob or LCN stories?
	20        A.    I was not made aware until the
	21   hearings started.
	22        Q.    Until the hearing started, you had
	23   never seen any article on John Matassa with
	24   connection to the Mob?

 
	1        A.    No.
	2        Q.    Never seen any articles about Frank
	3   Caruso in connection to the Mob?
	4        A.    No.
	5        Q.    Never seen any articles about Vince
	6   Solano in connection to the Mob?
	7        A.    No.
	8        Q.    Never seen any articles about Ernie
	9   Kumerow in connection to the Mob?
	10        A.    No.
	11        Q.    But you do read the papers?
	12        A.    Yes.  And just recently, there's stuff
	13   in the papers because of the hearings.
	14        Q.    Did that recent press coverage give
	15   you any second thoughts about the question
	16   Mr. Barr asked you about Mob influence?
	17        A.    No.
	18        Q.    So you think that article, the one
	19   that had the pictures of the Carusoes, and so
	20   forth, and led off with that story, you think
	21   that article was completely wrong and off base?
	22        A.    It could be.
	23        Q.    Well, I'm asking your opinion.
	24        A.    My opinion is it could be.

 
	1        Q.    Where along that -- it could be or
	2   could not be, according to you I guess is what
	3   you're saying?
	4        A.    Well, is all the facts there?  I don't
	5   know.  I have no --
	6        Q.    Let me read to you an article that was
	7   published in 1990 when you were a delegate.  This
	8   is in evidence.  It's a Chicago Magazine
	9   article.  "The litany of Mob-associated Laborers'
	10   officials in Chicago is breathtaking."
	11	    Does that statement surprise you?
	12        A.    Yes.
	13        Q.    I take it you don't agree with that
	14   statement?
	15        A.    No.
	16        Q.    It's not been visible to you?
	17        A.    No.
	18        Q.    All right.  Let me ask you, you became
	19   a delegate in 1983.  So that means you knew
	20   Mr. Caporale and Mr. Pilotto?
	21        A.    I did not know Mr. Pilotto.
	22        Q.    But you did know Mr. Caporale?
	23        A.    Briefly.
	24        Q.    Well, he was on the District Council

 
	1   in a leadership capacity until 1987, was he not?
	2        A.    That's correct.
	3        Q.    So you had some four years of overlap
	4   with him?
	5        A.    Yes.
	6        Q.    And, sir, you were aware of what had
	7   happened to Mr. Caporale in Florida, weren't you?
	8        A.    No.
	9        Q.    You were not aware?
	10        A.    No, I was not.
	11        Q.    You had no idea that he was indicted
	12   and convicted in a scheme to defraud this union's
	13   health and welfare funds?
	14        A.    No.
	15        Q.    No one talked about that?
	16        A.    No one discussed that with me.
	17        Q.    It didn't come up in any meeting?
	18        A.    I was not aware of it.
	19        Q.    That a leader of the District Council
	20   had been convicted of stealing this union's
	21   benefit funds, or I should clarify that and say
	22   taking kickbacks with respect to this union's
	23   benefit funds and no one mentioned it?
	24        A.    No.  I never heard anything about it.

 
	1        Q.    There was no sign of outrage there?
	2        A.    No.  I only -- the meeting is only
	3   once a month.  I mean, I never heard anything.
	4        Q.    But if you're there to exercise some
	5   voting rights, that's why you're there, right?
	6        A.    Sure.
	7        Q.    To represent your local, you're
	8   telling me that from the meetings you attended,
	9   there was no sign of outrage or disgust at
	10   Mr. Caporale's coming back to that union to
	11   maintain a leadership position there?
	12        A.    No.
	13        Q.    Do you know -- what happened to
	14   Mr. Caporale in 1987?
	15        A.    I don't remember.
	16        Q.    He went to jail for that offense,
	17   didn't he?
	18        A.    I guess if that's what you say.
	19        Q.    Well, I'm not testifying.  I'm asking
	20   if you know that.
	21        MR. BARR:  Objection.  Does he know it now?
	22   Did he know in 1987?  It's not clear.
	23        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I can clarify it very
	24   quickly.  Were you made aware in 1987 that

 
	1   Mr. Caporale went to jail as a result of his
	2   federal conviction?
	3        THE WITNESS:  I really don't remember.
	4   BY MR. THOMAS:
	5        Q.    So as you sit here today, admittedly,
	6   it was 10 years ago, but you don't remember
	7   anybody saying that the reason he was stepping
	8   down was because he finally had to face the music
	9   and do hard time in jail for ripping off this
	10   union?
	11        MR. BARR:  Objection.  The evidence doesn't
	12   show that he ripped off the union.
	13        MR. THOMAS:  Well, the record will speak for
	14   itself as to why he was going to jail.
	15        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Well, he was
	16   convicted; sort of a Chicago style of expressing
	17   that, he has to face the music.  But anyway, you
	18   get the picture.  The question is did you know
	19   that he eventually went to jail for the problems
	20   with the union fund.
	21        THE WITNESS:  I was made aware of that
	22   during these hearings.  I wasn't aware of that at
	23   the time.
	24   BY MR. THOMAS:

 
	1        Q.    But in 1987 you had no idea that the
	2   reason he stepped down was because he had to go
	3   into a federal penitentiary?
	4        A.    No, I was not aware of that.
	5        Q.    Nobody talked about that in the union
	6   meetings, did they, that you attended?
	7        A.    I don't remember.
	8        Q.    You have no recollection of that ever
	9   being raised or ever anyone saying anything about
	10   what he had done?
	11        A.    No.
	12        Q.    And yet it's still your testimony that
	13   there is a free and open feeling of discussion
	14   and democracy in this union?
	15        A.    There absolutely is.
	16        Q.    All right.  So the fact that someone
	17   can do what he did and go to jail for what he did
	18   and no one even mentions it, that doesn't give
	19   you any hesitation in answering that question?
	20        MR. BARR:  Objection.  He's arguing with the
	21   witness, Mr. Vaira.
	22        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I think he made his
	23   point.  The next question is this one here is --
	24   he's admitted he didn't hear it and there wasn't

 
	1   anything about it.  The next question is a lot
	2   of, sort of argument, final argument.  I think
	3   that's right.  I think you can move on with this
	4   one.
	5        MR. THOMAS:  Fair enough.  Fair enough.
	6   BY MR. THOMAS:
	7        Q.    Sir, you were a delegate at the time
	8   that -- no.  I beg your pardon.  You were not.
	9   1983 is when you came on as a delegate, is that
	10   right?
	11        A.    That's correct.
	12        Q.    What do you know about any criminal
	13   allegations with respect to Mr. Matassa?
	14        A.    I was not aware of anything until the
	15   hearing started.
	16        Q.    You had never heard that Mr. Matassa
	17   had been criminally indicted in an extorsion case
	18   involving the shakedown of gay bar owners?
	19        A.    No.
	20        Q.    And you never saw that in the papers?
	21        A.    No.
	22        Q.    What do you know about Mr. Frank
	23   Caruso's criminal background?
	24        A.    Nothing.

 
	1        Q.    You did not realize that he had been
	2   indicted criminally in an extorsion case in the
	3   1980s?
	4        A.    No.
	5        Q.    You only learned that through these
	6   hearings?
	7        A.    That's correct.
	8        Q.    I take it from your testimony that
	9   those indictments never caused any discussion
	10   within the union that you know of?
	11        A.    I don't remember if there was.
	12        Q.    And are you aware of the circumstances
	13   of Mr. Frank Caruso's resignation from the
	14   District Council?
	15        A.    No, I am not.
	16        Q.    And are you aware of any of the

	17   circumstances that led up to his becoming the
	18   head of the Pension Fund, the top employee of the
	19   Pension Fund?
	20        A.    I guess he got a job there.  He went
	21   to work there.
	22        Q.    But you don't know the circumstances?
	23        A.    I do not.
	24        Q.    In the mid-1980s when you were a

 
	1   delegate here, do you recall there being any
	2   discussion about the congressional testimony
	3   about this union in Washington, D.C.?
	4        A.    No, I haven't heard.
	5        Q.    Did anyone in this union mention the
	6   fact that Vince Solano was a major Mob boss in
	7   Chicago?
	8        A.    No.
	9        Q.    You knew Mr. Solano, did you not?
	10        A.    No.
	11        Q.    Well, you were a delegate when he was
	12   here, were you not?
	13        A.    I was a delegate, but I didn't know
	14   him personally.
	15        Q.    I guess you attended meetings with
	16   him?
	17        A.    Sure.
	18        Q.    In those meetings where Mr. Solano was
	19   a part of the leadership structure of this union
	20   and you were a delegate and he was a delegate,
	21   did anyone ever raise the fact that his name was
	22   publicly mentioned in congressional hearings as a
	23   major Mob boss in the north side of Chicago?
	24        A.    No.

 
	1        Q.    Just never came up?
	2        A.    No.
	3        Q.    Are you aware that Mr. Joe Abate in
	4   Local 225 has recently been indicted for
	5   bookmaking?
	6        A.    Not until the hearings.
	7        Q.    Are you aware that Mr. Jimmy DiForti
	8   has recently been indicted for murder?
	9        A.    Not until the hearings.
	10        Q.    Did you know anything in the mid-1980s
	11   about the circumstances of Mr. Palermo and
	12   Mr. Guzzino's convictions in a Mob-related case?
	13        A.    Not until the hearings.
	14        Q.    Those were your fellow delegates,
	15   well, one of those, Mr. Guzzino, was a fellow
	16   delegate here of the District Council, was he
	17   not?
	18        A.    I don't know.  I don't know him.  I
	19   don't know the guy.  I never heard of him.
	20        Q.    Are there some delegates that you
	21   don't know?
	22        A.    Yes.
	23        Q.    Is that because they are too numerous
	24   to know them all?

 
	1        A.    Yes, that's correct.
	2        Q.    What did you know -- when Mr. Kumerow
	3   was head of the District Council, did you know
	4   what his relationship was to Anthony Accardo?
	5        A.    I had heard that he was his
	6   son-in-law.
	7        Q.    And how did you hear that?
	8        A.    I can't remember who told me.  I heard
	9   it somewhere.
	10        Q.    Within the union or outside the union?
	11        A.    I can't remember where I heard it.
	12        Q.    Do you remember any sign of discomfort
	13   or dissent or concern about the fact that
	14   Mr. Accardo's son-in-law was head of the union?
	15        A.    No.
	16        Q.    That issue never came up?
	17        A.    No.  Ernie did a good job for the
	18   Laborers'.
	19        Q.    No, that was not my question.
	20        A.    He was a strong leader.
	21        Q.    That's not my question.  Let's assume
	22   that he did a good job as a union leader.
	23        A.    Sure.
	24        Q.    The question is:  Did anyone ever

 
	1   express any concern that the union leader was the
	2   son-in-law of the major Mob boss in Chicago?
	3        A.    No.
	4        Q.    Has anyone ever raised concerns about
	5   Joe Lombardo's father's criminal convictions?
	6        A.    No.
	7        Q.    Do you know anything about those?
	8        A.    No.
	9        Q.    As a delegate, you interact, except on
	10   the couple of the occasions that you've
	11   indicated, you basically interact with the
	12   District Council once a month, is that right?
	13        A.    That's correct.
	14        Q.    Okay.  There are a couple of special
	15   occasions, I think you mentioned some contracts,
	16   some strikes, some jurisdictional disputes, where
	17   you might have phone calls or other contacts, but
	18   basically it's a once-a-month interaction with
	19   the leadership, is that right?
	20        A.    That's correct.
	21        Q.    You're not involved in the
	22   administration of the District Council on a
	23   day-to-day basis, are you?
	24        A.    No, I am not.

 
	1        Q.    That's someone else's job, right?
	2        A.    That's correct.
	3        Q.    And what those people do on their own
	4   time when they're not working for the union is
	5   something that is, A, not your business, and, B,
	6   not known or visible to you, anyway, correct?
	7        A.    That's correct.
	8        Q.    And who they may be associating with
	9   or affiliated with is not your business and not
	10   something that's known or visible to you, either,
	11   correct?
	12        A.    That's correct.
	13        Q.    So if John Matassa is meeting with
	14   someone at midnight at a restaurant, that's just
	15   something that you're not going to know about, is
	16   it?
	17        A.    That's correct.
	18        Q.    When Mr. Barr asked you about the
	19   freedom you feel to express your opinion in
	20   District Council meetings, and so forth, you
	21   indicated that you do remember there was one
	22   occasion where there was some dissent, and I
	23   think you mentioned something about a Fox Valley
	24   contract involving a lower rate, is that right?

 
	1        A.    That's correct.
	2        Q.    So that was a disagreement about a
	3   specific labor related issue, was it not?
	4        A.    That's correct.
	5        Q.    It was not any dissent or major
	6   discussion about whether or not this union was
	7   Mob'd up?
	8        A.    No.
	9        Q.    It had nothing to do with the LCN or
	10   the Mob or whether the leadership structure was
	11   tied in with the Mob, correct?
	12        A.    Correct.
	13        Q.    You also said something interesting
	14   with respect to nominations.  If I heard you
	15   correctly, you said that the way it works
	16   essentially is that everyone is there in the
	17   meeting, delegates, the leadership, and someone
	18   from the floor makes a nomination and everyone
	19   votes aye or nay and that person gets elected.
	20   Is that essentially right?
	21        A.    That's correct.
	22        Q.    Am I right that it has never been the
	23   case that you have multiple nominations for the
	24   same post and you have a good old fight over who

 
	1   is going to get it?  That does not happen, does
	2   it?
	3        A.    I don't recollect that.
	4        Q.    Okay.  In 14 years of being a
	5   delegate, that has not happened, has it?
	6        A.    I don't remember if it has.
	7        Q.    Everyone is just vigorously agreeing
	8   on who the nominees should be and whether they
	9   should be elected?

	10        A.    I believe the delegates when they --
	11   when a person is nominated, the delegates know
	12   the integrity, the type of person that's been
	13   nominated and I believe they all agree that that
	14   guy is a good guy to have fill that position.
	15        Q.    And so essentially it is unanimous, it
	16   is all but unanimous, maybe a few hands don't go
	17   up, but essentially there is no disagreement
	18   about the candidates, right?
	19        A.    Sure.  I never had any disagreement
	20   about my candidacy as a business manager.
	21        Q.    I am not following that answer.
	22        A.    I have been elected several times.  I
	23   have no opposition, and not one person stood up
	24   and said, "Hey, he shouldn't be business

 
	1   manager."
	2        Q.    And you are not tied in with the mob,
	3   right?
	4        A.    Pardon?
	5        Q.    You are not tied in with the mob?
	6        MR. BARR:  Objection.  He is arguing with
	7   the witness.
	8        MR. THOMAS:  That's a fact question.
	9        THE HEARING OFFICER:  He can answer.
	10   BY THE WITNESS:
	11        A.    No.
	12   BY MR. THOMAS:
	13        Q.    You have never been indicted?
	14        A.    No.
	15        Q.    You have never been cited in
	16   congressional testimony as being tied in with the
	17   mob or being a mob boss?
	18        A.    No.
	19        Q.    You have not been indicted for
	20   bookmaking or murder, have you?
	21        A.    No.
	22        Q.    You have not been mentioned publicly
	23   in articles as being a corrupt union official,
	24   have you?

 
	1        A.    Not that I know of.
	2        Q.    You are a hard working guy who works
	3   for his guys in the local, right?
	4        A.    I think so.
	5        Q.    And you are rewarded with being voted
	6   in time and time again for that, right?
	7        A.    I hope so.
	8        Q.    You indicated that "people are not
	9   afraid to talk.  We work on a consensus.  We air
	10   things out.  We reach agreement on things."
	11	    When there is a topic that needs to be
	12   aired out and a consensus reached, it has to do
	13   with a labor issue and a union issue, right?
	14        A.    Yes.
	15        Q.    It has to do with whether we should do
	16   this contract or that contract or whether this
	17   benefit is a good idea or whether this employer
	18   is treating us fairly, those types of issues,
	19   right?
	20        A.    That's correct.
	21        Q.    It has never been the case that this
	22   union has aired out internally or otherwise the
	23   allegations that are out there publicly about mob
	24   infiltration of this union?  That discussion has

 
	1   never happened, has it?
	2        MR. BARR:  Objection to the time frame.  He
	3   said it has never been the case.
	4   BY MR. THOMAS:
	5        Q.    Since you have been a delegate, in 14
	6   years, this union, to your knowledge, has never
	7   internally aired out the question of whether the
	8   mob has got its tentacles into it?
	9        A.    No.
	10        Q.    It has just not happened?  The
	11   discussions that occur, whether they are
	12   disagreements or consensus-type of discussions,
	13   have to do with labor issues only?  They are not
	14   any kind of a revolt, if you will, about mob
	15   infiltration?
	16        A.    I think it is just hearsay, isn't it?

	17        Q.    Just answer the question.
	18        A.    Allegations, hearsay.
	19        Q.    Just answer the question.
	20        MR. CARMELL:  That is the appropriate
	21   answer.
	22        THE HEARING OFFICER:  You may answer, but
	23   then he wants you to answer it yes or no.  You
	24   may add your comment, of course, but the question

 
	1   is has the mob issued --
	2   BY MR. THOMAS:
	3        Q.    I am not asking you to assume the
	4   truthfulness of anything or whether it is --
	5   whether it is hearsay or whether it is true or
	6   untrue.  There are public issues out there,
	7   articles in magazines, at least two binders of
	8   newspaper articles, congressional testimony,
	9   public indictments, public convictions of people
	10   who are affiliated either directly or indirectly
	11   with this union.
	12	    And my question to you is when union
	13   members air things out and discuss things and
	14   disagree and try to reach consensus, it doesn't
	15   have to do with those issues, it has to do with
	16   union labor issues, right?
	17        A.    Our discussions is regarding union
	18   issues.
	19        THE HEARING OFFICER:  The issue is sort of a
	20   long discourse.  Has the issue, whether it is
	21   true or not, allegations of mob influence, ever
	22   come to the floor for debate at your meetings?
	23        THE WITNESS:  No.
	24        MR. THOMAS:  Nothing further.

 
	1        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Mr. Barr?
	2	        REDIRECT EXAMINATION
	3   BY MR. BARR:
	4        Q.    Mr. Mann, you mentioned early in your
	5   direct testimony that you to some extent read
	6   newspapers.  Which ones have you read say since
	7   1990 on a regular -- on any kind of basis?
	8        A.    Since 1990?
	9        Q.    Right.  Have you read the Chicago
	10   papers, for example?
	11        A.    Maybe on occasion, but not regularly.
	12        Q.    On occasion.  How frequently do you
	13   read the Chicago newspapers?
	14        A.    Now I read them regularly.
	15        Q.    Before this proceeding, how often --
	16   did you regularly read Chicago newspapers?
	17        A.    I probably didn't start getting the
	18   Sun-Times or the Tribune until only the last
	19   couple of years.
	20        Q.    And where do you live?
	21        A.    I live in the far west county.  Out by
	22   Iowa.
	23        Q.    Do you get a paper at your home?
	24        A.    No.

 
	1        THE HEARING OFFICER:  What county are you
	2   in?  What is your county?  Where do you live?
	3        THE WITNESS:  Kendall.
	4   BY MR. BARR:
	5        Q.    Now, you were asked some questions
	6   about your uncontested elections to office as
	7   business manager of Local 149.  I'd like to ask
	8   you some similar questions about some of the
	9   Council officers.
	10	    First Bruno Caruso.  In your
	11   opinion -- do you have an opinion about whether
	12   Bruno is approved for appointment as business
	13   manager in 1994 due to his work habits?
	14        A.    Yes.
	15        Q.    And what do you think his -- the
	16   reputation for Bruno's work habits were when he
	17   was appointed and confirmed by the delegates in
	18   1994?
	19        A.    He is very hard working, diligent.  I
	20   mean, always available if you need him.
	21        Q.    And did you have an opinion about
	22   whether Bruno had been doing a good job when he
	23   was appointed in 1994 and confirmed by the
	24   delegates?

 
	1        A.    He had done a great -- he had been
	2   doing a great job.
	3        Q.    Did you have an opinion in 1994 about
	4   whether Bruno deserved to be appointed and
	5   confirmed by the delegates as business manager to
	6   the Council?
	7        A.    I thought he was a good selection.
	8        Q.    Prior to 1994, you attended nomination
	9   meetings where Ernie Kumerow was elected in an
	10   uncontested election to the position of business
	11   manager of the Council?
	12        A.    Yes.
	13        Q.    Do you have an opinion as to what his
	14   work habits were?
	15        A.    Another hard-working individual.
	16        Q.    Did you have an opinion about whether
	17   he was doing a good job?
	18        A.    He was doing a great job.
	19        Q.    Did you have an opinion about whether
	20   he deserved to be elected?
	21        A.    Yes.
	22        Q.    And back to 1994, concerning John
	23   Matassa, did you have an opinion at that
	24   nominations meeting about his work habits?

 
	1        A.    Yeah.  He ran a tight ship.  He had a
	2   good, strong local and he had some good field
	3   reps and he -- he did a good job.
	4        Q.    Did you have an opinion in 1994
	5   whether Mr. Matassa deserved to be elected to the
	6   position of vice president?
	7        A.    I felt he was another good selection.
	8        Q.    And the elections in 1990 and 1994,
	9   did you have an opinion about the work habits of
	10   Joe Lombardo, Junior?
	11        A.    He is a workaholic.  He works all of
	12   the time.  He is there early in the morning.  He
	13   is there at night.  His No. 1 concern is the
	14   membership and their families.
	15        Q.    Did you have an opinion about whether
	16   Joe deserved to be elected, Mr. Lombardo deserved
	17   to be elected to the position of
	18   secretary/treasurer in 1990, 1994?
	19        A.    I thought he was a good selection.
	20        MR. BARR:  I have nothing further.
	21	        RECROSS EXAMINATION
	22   BY MR. THOMAS:
	23        Q.    Just if I could follow up briefly.
	24	    Mr. Mann, you are saying, if I am

 
	1   understanding you correctly, from your
	2   perspective these folks are doing a great job and
	3   deserve to be elected because from where you sit
	4   you are getting what you need from these folks,
	5   correct?  You are getting backed up when a local
	6   needs support, correct?
	7        A.    Correct.
	8        Q.    You are getting collective bargaining
	9   help when you need collective bargaining help,
	10   correct?
	11        A.    Correct.
	12        Q.    You are getting an increase in
	13   benefits when you need an increase in benefits,
	14   correct?
	15        A.    Correct.
	16        Q.    And none of that has anything to do
	17   with whether or not there is improper influence
	18   over those people?
	19        A.    That's correct.
	20        Q.    What you see is a more limited angle
	21   or a more limited focus, and it has to do with
	22   whether your members are being backed up
	23   appropriately by the leadership structure of the
	24   union?

 
	1        MR. BARR:  Objection.  Limited?
	2        THE HEARING OFFICER:  He may not understand
	3   limited.  Rephrase the question.
	4        MR. THOMAS:  I will rephrase the question.
	5   BY MR. THOMAS:
	6        Q.    Your perspective is from that of
	7   running a local and whether the District Council
	8   gives you the kind of help that you want and need
	9   from the leadership of the union, right?
	10        A.    This support and help and back-up
	11   effects people living in nine counties.  I see it
	12   as a large perspective.
	13        Q.    Well, let's assume that there are
	14   other managers of locals that would say the same
	15   thing.  It is a separate question as we started
	16   off this cross-examination.  The question of
	17   whether you get the support you need is a
	18   separate question from whether or not there is
	19   improper influence on these people?
	20        A.    That's correct.

	21        MR. THOMAS:  All right.  Nothing further.
	22        THE HEARING OFFICER:  All right, gentlemen.
	23   Thank you.  Let's take a break here.  We will
	24   take a ten-minute break.

 
	1	        (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.).
	2        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Call your witness.
	3        MR. BARR:  Liberato Naimoli.
	4        THE HEARING OFFICER:  All right, sir.  Let's
	5   have the court reporter swear you in.
	6	        (WHEREUPON, the witness was duly
	7	        sworn.)
	8	        LIBERATO NAIMOLI,
	9   called as a witness herein, having been first
	10   duly sworn, was examined and testified as
	11   follows:
	12	        DIRECT EXAMINATION
	13   BY MR. BARR:
	14        Q.    Will you state your name, please?
	15        A.    My name is Liberato Naimoli,
	16   L-i-b-e-r-t-o N-a-i-m-o-l-i.
	17        Q.    Are you employed by the laborers'
	18   union, Mr. Naimoli?
	19        A.    Employed by Cement Workers Local 76.
	20        Q.    In what capacity are you employed by
	21   Local 76?
	22        A.    President, business manager.
	23        Q.    How long have you been business
	24   manager and president?

 
	1        A.    Since 1991.
	2        Q.    When did you first become a member of
	3   the Laborers?
	4        A.    1970.
	5        Q.    What local did you become a member of
	6   at that time?
	7        A.    Local 76.
	8        Q.    Can you tell us how that came to be?
	9   Who were you hired by?
	10        A.    I applied for application with the
	11   City of Chicago for cement mixer's position and I
	12   got called for employment.
	13        Q.    Could you tell us again who were you
	14   employed by in 1970 when you became a member of
	15   Local 76?
	16        A.    City of Chicago, Department of
	17   Concrete Maintenance.
	18        Q.    And what classification did you hire
	19   into at that time?
	20        A.    Cement mixer.
	21        Q.    How long did you work for the city as
	22   an employee?
	23        A.    Seven years.
	24        Q.    And during those seven years, what

 
	1   work did you perform for the city?
	2        A.    I poured concrete, broke concrete, dug
	3   ditches, laid out material, carried supplies.
	4        Q.    You were a member of Local 76 during
	5   that seven years?
	6        A.    Yes.
	7        Q.    When did you first become an officer
	8   of Local 76?
	9        A.    1977.
	10        Q.    What office did you assume at that
	11   time?
	12        A.    The office of auditor.
	13        Q.    And what duties did the auditor
	14   position involve?
	15        A.    Review the financial reports of the
	16   secretary/treasurer.
	17        Q.    How long did you remain an auditor?
	18        A.    Until approximately 1980.
	19        Q.    And what job did you take on at that
	20   time?
	21        A.    Recording secretary.
	22        Q.    How long were you recording secretary?
	23        A.    From 1980 to 1983.
	24        Q.    And what were your duties as recording

 
	1   secretary?
	2        A.    To record the minutes of meetings and
	3   prepare new minutes of the meetings.
	4        Q.    And were either of those first two
	5   positions full-time positions with Local 76?
	6        A.    At that time, yes.
	7        Q.    Both were?
	8        A.    Yes.
	9        Q.    And after spending some time as
	10   recording secretary for the local, did you take
	11   another position?
	12        A.    In 1983, I was nominated and
	13   elected -- in 1983, I filled a vacancy of
	14   recording -- secretary-treasurer.
	15        Q.    How long did you hold the position of
	16   secretary-treasurer?
	17        A.    From 1983 to 1991.
	18        Q.    And what were the duties you performed
	19   as secretary-treasurer?
	20        A.    The day-to-day activities as far as
	21   financial business of the local and collecting of
	22   the dues and paying of the per capita.
	23        Q.    And was it after you were employed as
	24   secretary-treasurer that you became the business

 
	1   manager of the local in 1991?
	2        A.    In 1991, there was a vacancy created
	3   by the death of our business manager.
	4        Q.    Who was that?
	5        A.    James O'Brien.
	6        Q.    And it was then that you became
	7   business manager and president?
	8        A.    Yes.
	9        Q.    What have your duties been as
	10   president and business manager of Local 76 since
	11   1991?
	12        A.    To oversee the day-to-day activity of
	13   the local union.
	14        Q.    And what are those day-to-day
	15   activities that you perform in a typical day?
	16        A.    Collective bargaining, organizing,
	17   soliciting membership, directives of the local to
	18   the members, grievances, answering grievances.
	19   It could be many other things.
	20        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Mr. Naimoli, I assume
	21   the business manager of that local is full time?
	22        THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
	23        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Secretary-treasurer
	24   was or was not?

 
	1        THE WITNESS:  It was also full time.
	2        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Also full time.  You
	3   must have a good amount of members.  What's your
	4   number?
	5        THE WITNESS:  900.
	6        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Do you have field
	7   reps, too?
	8        THE WITNESS:  Just the two of us, just
	9   myself --
	10        THE HEARING OFFICER:  You're the field rep
	11   and secretary/treasurer?
	12        THE WITNESS:  And secretary/treasurer.
	13   BY MR. BARR:
	14        Q.    Do the 900 members of Local 76 have a
	15   common or typical job classification?
	16        A.    Yes, they do.
	17        Q.    What is that?
	18        A.    Laborers.
	19        Q.    And what duties do the laborers who
	20   are members of your local perform?
	21        A.    General construction, predominantly
	22   road construction type of work, pouring concrete,
	23   curbs, sidewalks, pouring concrete pavement and
	24   constructing concrete bridge decks.

 
	1        Q.    Does your local include as its members
	2   any public employees?
	3        A.    Yes, it does.
	4        Q.    About how many of your members or what
	5   proportion of your members are public employees?
	6        A.    Approximately 25 percent.
	7        Q.    Who are the public employees who are
	8   your members employed by?
	9        A.    City of Chicago, Department of
	10   Transportation.
	11        Q.    Would that be all of your members who
	12   are public employees?
	13        A.    Yes.  There's a few in the Fire
	14   Department that are laborers, also.
	15        THE HEARING OFFICER:  How is that?
	16        THE WITNESS:  There's various crafts that
	17   are employed by the Fire Department, millwrights,
	18   they do all their in-house work, and we tend the
	19   other trades.
	20        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Oh, okay.
	21   BY MR. BARR:
	22        Q.    The remaining three-quarters of your
	23   local's membership, who are they employed by?
	24        A.    By private contractors.

 
	1        Q.    To what extent do your members who are
	2   involved in the cement industry, to what extent
	3   can they work all year-round?  About how many of
	4   your members work all year-round?
	5        A.    Approximately 25 years.
	6        Q.    The balance, what months do they
	7   typically work?
	8        A.    December -- oh, no.  They normally
	9   work from April until December.
	10        Q.    Why is that that a number of them
	11   don't work the entire year?
	12        A.    Basically for climate, because of
	13   seasonal conditions, due to climate.
	14        THE HEARING OFFICER:  You can't lay concrete
	15   in the snow.
	16        MR. BARR:  I used to think you could if you
	17   had enough straw, but maybe not.
	18        THE HEARING OFFICER:  No.  It takes a while
	19   to set up.
	20   BY MR. BARR:
	21        Q.    Now, you mentioned there was a typical
	22   classification, Mr. Naimoli.  How many different
	23   wage rates do your members earn in a typical
	24   classification?

 
	1        A.    One wage rate.
	2        Q.    What wage rate is that?
	3        A.    22.35 an hour.
	4        Q.    Do you recall when that rate went into
	5   effect?
	6        A.    Yes.  June 1st, 1997.
	7        Q.    Do your members have any license
	8   requirements?
	9        A.    Some of them have certification for
	10   flagging, certification for -- to be a competent
	11   person in underground conditions, also CDL
	12   licenses, lead abatement and hazardous waste
	13   licensing.
	14        Q.    Do your members receive benefits?
	15        A.    Yes, they do.
	16        Q.    For those who are employed by the
	17   City, what benefits do they receive?
	18        A.    They receive health insurance and
	19   pension.
	20        Q.    From whom or how does the members who
	21   are City employees receive health insurance?  Who
	22   provides that insurance?
	23        A.    The insurance is provided by the City
	24   of Chicago.

 
	1        Q.    And who pays for the cost of the
	2   insurance?
	3        A.    There is a co-payment allowed by the
	4   member of like $22 a pay period and the rest is
	5   assumed by the City of Chicago.
	6        Q.    And what type of insurance are they
	7   covered by?
	8        A.    General coverage, major medical,
	9   dental, vision.
	10        Q.    Is that through an insurance company?
	11        A.    BlueCross BlueShield, yes.
	12        Q.    What about retirement, do the City
	13   employees receive retirement?
	14        A.    Yes, they do.  They are members of the
	15   Laborers' Annuity Retirement Plan.
	16        Q.    Is that handled or administered
	17   through the Chicago District Council?
	18        A.    Strictly through the City of Chicago.
	19        Q.    So that fund has no connection with
	20   the Laborers'?
	21        A.    No.
	22        Q.    The Laborers' Union, I should say.
	23        A.    No.
	24        Q.    What about the contractors, the

 
	1   members who are employees of the contractors,
	2   about three-quarters of your membership, do they
	3   receive health insurance?
	4        A.    Yes, they do.  They're covered by the
	5   Laborers' Health and Welfare Plan.
	6        Q.    And that's the plan administered
	7   through the Chicago District Council?
	8        A.    Yes, it is.
	9        Q.    Do they receive a retirement benefit?
	10        A.    Yes, they do.
	11        Q.    What do they receive?
	12        A.    They receive --
	13        Q.    Through what?
	14        A.    Through a pension basically.
	15        Q.    And does that pension have anything to
	16   do with the Chicago District Council?
	17        A.    It's bargained on behalf of the
	18   Chicago District Council.
	19        Q.    Is that the Laborers' Pension Fund?
	20        A.    Yes, it is.
	21        Q.    How many collective bargaining
	22   agreements cover the local's private sector
	23   employees?
	24        A.    In our industry, we're covered

 
	1   predominantly by two, Illinois Road Builders
	2   Association and Concrete Contractors Association.
	3        Q.    Are those two associations represented
	4   by MARBA?
	5        A.    Yes, they are.
	6        Q.    This is the same MARBA that negotiates
	7   the collective bargaining agreement with the
	8   Chicago District Council?
	9        A.    Yes, it is.
	10        Q.    Who negotiates the contract on behalf
	11   of the District Council, the one with MARBA?
	12        A.    It's negotiated by a negotiating
	13   committee through the District Council.
	14        Q.    Have you ever participated on the
	15   bargaining team for the Chicago District Council
	16   in its negotiations with MARBA?
	17        A.    Yes, I have.
	18        Q.    On how many occasions?
	19        A.    At least four times.
	20        Q.    How frequently have the contracts come
	21   up for renewal between the Council and MARBA?
	22        A.    It could be three or four years apart.
	23        Q.    Will you describe how the bargaining
	24   team -- well, has the bargaining team been formed

 
	1   on those three or four occasions the same or in
	2   different manners?
	3        A.    Basically in the same manner.
	4        Q.    And how have they been formed?
	5        A.    They'll approach you, if you would be
	6   willing to volunteer your services on the
	7   negotiating committee.
	8        Q.    When you say they, who are you
	9   referring to?
	10        A.    Normally the officers of the District
	11   Council.
	12        Q.    Do the officers of the Council
	13   approach people, as you say, on the Council floor
	14   or outside Council meetings?
	15        A.    Normally at a Council meeting.
	16        Q.    So typically how is that done?  How is
	17   the bargaining team put together?
	18        A.    Well, it's made up of normally
	19   business managers, approximately maybe seven,
	20   between seven and ten business managers.
	21        Q.    Is there a chairperson or a
	22   spokesperson for the bargaining team?
	23        A.    Yes, there is.
	24        Q.    Is it typically a certain officer of

 
	1   the Council?
	2        A.    Normally it's been the business
	3   manager of the District Council.
	4        Q.    That's been the case the three or four
	5   times?
	6        A.    And occasionally the
	7   secretary/treasurer, also, co-chairs it.
	8        Q.    Is there -- well, how many collective
	9   bargaining agreements cover the membership of the
	10   local with the City, who are City employees?
	11        A.    One.
	12        Q.    And is there a bargaining team put
	13   together for those negotiations?
	14        A.    Yes, there is.
	15        Q.    How does that bargaining team get put
	16   together?
	17        A.    Pretty much the same way.  There's
	18   three locals involved and the three business
	19   managers and -- or other officers are involved in
	20   it.
	21        Q.    Is there any input requested of the
	22   delegates at the Chicago District Council for
	23   inclusion on the bargaining team?
	24        A.    Pertaining to the City contract?

 
	1        Q.    Correct.
	2        A.    Well, yeah, just in the same order,
	3   they would ask me if I was -- would be willing to
	4   participate in the negotiations.
	5        Q.    Is there anything unusual about the
	6   bargaining with the City with respect to the
	7   laborers?  I mean, how many sets of negotiations
	8   are involved in bargaining with the City?
	9        A.    Very many.
	10        Q.    Is there something called a
	11   coalition?
	12        A.    Yes.
	13        Q.    Tell Mr. Vaira what the coalition is.
	14        A.    There's 30 separate entity -- union
	15   entities that bond together and form a coalition
	16   to negotiate common issues pertaining to all of
	17   the City employees.
	18        Q.    What are some of the examples of the
	19   common issues that are common to all City
	20   employees that get bargained through coalition?
	21        A.    Holiday pay --
	22        Q.    When you say how they pay, what are
	23   you referring to?
	24        A.    Holiday pay.

 
	1        Q.    Oh, holiday pay?
	2        A.    Vacation pay, insurance matters.
	3        Q.    You said there is about 30 separate
	4   trades, did you say, that are on the coalition.
	5   Can you identify a number of the trades for us?
	6        A.    Sure.  Mechanics union, operating
	7   engineers, carpenters, service employees union,
	8   AFSCME, plumbers' union.
	9        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Now, when you come up
	10   to negotiate, the cement workers as such, 1006
	11   has got, 1006, 1001 -- no.  1001 has street
	12   workers.  They negotiate different times or you
	13   guys all go together?
	14        THE WITNESS:  We all go together.
	15        MR. BARR:  I was going to get to that,
	16   Mr. Vaira.
	17        THE HEARING OFFICER:  When you said
	18   coalition, I was wondering if that was what that
	19   was about?
	20        THE WITNESS:  Only on common issues.
	21   BY MR. BARR:
	22        Q.    Well, prompted by Mr. Vaira, are any
	23   of the Laborers' locals who belong to the Chicago
	24   District Council represented on the coalition?

 
	1        A.    Yes, there is.
	2        Q.    Is that one local or more than one
	3   local?
	4        A.    More than one.
	5        Q.    Which are those?
	6        A.    1001, 1092 and 76.
	7        Q.    Now, of these 30 or so trades that are
	8   members of the coalition, how many of those have
	9   representation on the coalition?
	10        A.    Everyone.
	11        Q.    Have you in the past been on the --
	12   well, does the coalition form a bargaining team
	13   for its negotiations with the city?
	14        A.    Everyone is present there as far as
	15   negotiation goes.  It is a full body.
	16        Q.    So every one of the trades on the
	17   coalition has a representative on the bargaining
	18   team?
	19        A.    Yes, they do.
	20        Q.    And how -- withdraw that.
	21	    How frequently do the contracts with
	22   the city come up for negotiations?
	23        A.    They vary between three and four
	24   years.

 
	1        Q.    When did Local 76 first enter a
	2   contract with the city, approximately when?
	3        A.    1985.
	4        Q.    Do you know if that's true for Local
	5   1001 and 1092?
	6        A.    Yes, it is.
	7        Q.    Have you personally been on the
	8   coalition bargaining team?
	9        A.    Yes, I am.
	10        Q.    On how many occasions have you been on
	11   the coalition bargaining team?
	12        A.    Since 1985.
	13        Q.    So since the very beginning?
	14        A.    Yes.
	15        Q.    And how many contracts would that
	16   cover approximately?
	17        A.    Three.
	18        Q.    Does the coalition have any chairman,
	19   chair persons?
	20        A.    Normally they form -- they have two
	21   chair persons, one of -- from the Laborers Union
	22   and one from the Teamsters Union this last time.
	23        Q.    Well, in your experience, from the
	24   contracts which you have helped bargaining since

 
	1   1985, have the Laborers had a chairman on each of
	2   those contracts?
	3        A.    Yes, they have.
	4        Q.    For each of those negotiations?
	5        A.    Yes, they have.
	6        Q.    And who has been the chairman for the
	7   negotiations in which you have participated?
	8        A.    Ernie Kumerow and Bruno Caruso.
	9        Q.    When were negotiations last held
	10   between the City of Chicago and the coalition, do
	11   you recall?
	12        A.    Last year.
	13        Q.    1996?
	14        A.    Actually 1995.
	15        Q.    Was it those negotiations on which
	16   Bruno Caruso served as the chair person along
	17   with another trade?
	18        A.    Yes.
	19        Q.    And was it those negotiations on which
	20   a representative from Teamsters Local 726 was a
	21   chair?
	22        A.    Yes.
	23        Q.    And are you saying that in earlier
	24   negotiations the other chair was not from a

 
	1   Teamsters local?
	2        A.    It was also.
	3        Q.    On how many occasions did Ernie
	4   Kumerow serve as chairman of the coalition for
	5   the bargaining purposes?
	6        A.    Twice.
	7        Q.    And how often has Bruno Caruso?
	8        A.    Once.
	9        Q.    Now, are the two chairman actually the
	10   spokespersons for the 30 or so trades during
	11   negotiations?
	12        A.    Yes, they are.
	13        Q.    Does the coalition bargain any
	14   economic or wage matters other than perhaps the
	15   insurance you referred to earlier?
	16        A.    No, they don't.
	17        Q.    Well, for the most recent negotiations
	18   in 1995, can you estimate how much -- or the
	19   length of time that was required to negotiate a
	20   contract between the coalition and the city?
	21        A.    Approximately one year.
	22        Q.    About how many meetings took place
	23   between the parties for negotiations before they
	24   were able to reach a contract?

 
	1        A.    Over 40 on the coalition basis.
	2        Q.    It seems as though the economic issues
	3   are not addressed by the coalition.  So who
	4   bargains those that effect Local 76?
	5        A.    I do.
	6        Q.    And do you do that -- well, do you
	7   have to wait until the coalition is done
	8   bargaining before you engage in bargaining over
	9   economic matters?
	10        A.    After a period of time then we
	11   simultaneously do both.
	12        Q.    And does Local 76 bargain alone with
	13   the city over economic matters?
	14        A.    We bargain together, but we have
	15   individual interest.
	16        Q.    When you say together, together with
	17   whom?
	18        A.    With the two other locals.
	19        Q.    That would be 1001 and 1092?
	20        A.    1092, correct.
	21        Q.    And they are both part of the Chicago
	22   District Council, correct?
	23        A.    Yes, they are.
	24        Q.    What is the work jurisdiction, if you

 
	1   know, of Local 1092?
	2        A.    1092?
	3        Q.    Who do they represent?
	4        A.    Basically, sir, water distribution and
	5   sewer department and aviation.  A few other
	6   departments I am not sure of.
	7        Q.    And 1001, what is its jurisdiction?
	8        A.    Sanitation, asphalt, bureau of
	9   electricity, forestry.
	10        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Street workers too?
	11        THE WITNESS:  And clerical people also.
	12        THE HEARING OFFICER:  And also street
	13   workers?
	14        THE WITNESS:  Right.
	15   BY MR. BARR:
	16        Q.    I believe you testified earlier that
	17   Local 76 has one classification, is that correct?
	18        A.    One classification.
	19        Q.    And how many, if you know, does Local
	20   1001 have, classifications?
	21        A.    Various classifications.
	22        Q.    More than five, more than ten?
	23        A.    Maybe 50.
	24        Q.    Maybe 50.  How about Local 1092, do

 
	1   you have any idea how many classifications?
	2        A.    Just as many.
	3        Q.    Now, other than the economics -- well,
	4   withdraw that.
	5	    What do you refer to as the economic
	6   issues that get negotiated by the three locals
	7   with the city?  What are those?
	8        A.    The economic issues are based
	9   predominantly on different elements.  Prevailing
	10   wage rate is set, the economics are set at
	11   negotiations from the outside sector, the city
	12   normally accepts the prevailing wage rate into
	13   their categories that serve prevailing wage-type
	14   of work, and then there is negotiated rates of
	15   pay, union rate of pay by the other unions, other
	16   than prevailing rate.
	17        Q.    Prevailing rate, who negotiates the
	18   prevailing rate that you just referred to?
	19        A.    The District Council does.
	20        Q.    And who does the Council negotiate
	21   that prevailing rate with?
	22        A.    With MARBA.
	23        Q.    I see.  So after those negotiations
	24   are completed, the rate information is given to

 
	1   the City of Chicago?
	2        A.    Correct.
	3        Q.    What does the city do with that
	4   information?
	5        A.    They accept it.
	6        Q.    Have you personally been on the
	7   bargaining -- well, withdraw that.
	8	    The three locals, do they put together
	9   a bargaining team when they bargain economics
	10   with the city?
	11        A.    Yes, we do.
	12        Q.    Have you been on the bargaining team
	13   put together for the three locals?
	14        A.    Yes, I have.
	15        Q.    On how many occasions have you been on
	16   the three locals' bargaining team?
	17        A.    Since 1985 until currently.
	18        Q.    So it would be the same number of
	19   negotiations that you have been on for the
	20   coalition?
	21        A.    Yes, it has.
	22        Q.    And has anyone else -- well, when were
	23   the most recent negotiations between the three
	24   locals on the one hand and the city on the other?

 
	1        A.    1995.
	2        Q.    Did anyone else from Local 76
	3   participate in the bargaining in 1995?
	4        A.    No.  Just myself.
	5        Q.    And who participated for Local 1092 in
	6   1995?
	7        A.    Charles LoVerde, Robert LoVerde and
	8   Charles LoVerde the third.
	9        Q.    And for 1001?
	10        A.    Bruno Caruso, Nicky Gironda and
	11   basically those two officers.
	12        Q.    Who served as the chief spokesperson
	13   in 1995 for the three locals?
	14        A.    Well, we pretty much share -- normally
	15   Bruno was the chief spokesman.
	16        Q.    But you all have --
	17        A.    Input.
	18        Q.    -- some participation?
	19        A.    Yes, we all do.
	20        Q.    And before Bruno -- before 1995 and
	21   when Ernie Kumerow was chief spokesperson, did --
	22   excuse me -- when he was business manager of the
	23   counsel, did he participate in these negotiations
	24   between the three locals and the city?

 
	1        A.    Yes, he did.
	2        Q.    Now, in 1995, about how many meetings
	3   took place between the three locals and the city
	4   before you could come to agreement on the
	5   economic matters?
	6        A.    Approximately just as many.  Maybe 40
	7   meetings.
	8        Q.    To what extent do the three locals
	9   bargain economics that are identical for each of
	10   the locals or separate for each of the locals?
	11        A.    Well, there are so many -- being so
	12   many classifications of labor, we all have our
	13   own concerns and our own identity as far as the
	14   type of work, so it is very intricate.
	15        Q.    Is it fair to say that most of the
	16   discussions pertain to the classifications for
	17   the other two locals since they have so many more
	18   than you do?
	19        A.    Pretty much so, yes.
	20        Q.    And other than wage rates, is anything
	21   else bargained during the negotiations for the
	22   three -- like grievance procedure, for example?
	23        A.    Absolutely.
	24        Q.    Absolutely?

 
	1        A.    Yes.
	2        Q.    And what other things are bargained
	3   besides the wage rates?
	4        A.    A whole slew of things; grievance,
	5   leaves, bumping rights, iron rights, leave -- I
	6   said leave.  I can't think there are so many.
	7   Grievance procedures, employees' rights.  Many
	8   things.
	9        Q.    In 1995, were bargaining demands --
	10   were there common bargaining demands that the
	11   three locals had?
	12        A.    Yes, there were.
	13        Q.    And how did the three locals formulate
	14   their bargaining demands and decide which ones to
	15   put forward to the city?
	16        A.    Two meetings and opinions between the
	17   three of us.
	18        Q.    So all three locals had input into
	19   what the meetings were?
	20        A.    Yes.
	21        Q.    Do you recall if there was any
	22   disagreement over the demands which would be put
	23   to the city by the three locals?
	24        A.    Occasionally there may have been.

 
	1        Q.    Do you recall any in particular?
	2        A.    For instance, one of mine, I was
	3   concerned about the co-payment towards the
	4   insurance benefits.  A few of my members are only
	5   seasonal workers.  They don't earn very much
	6   money.  I didn't think it was fair that they
	7   assumed the full amount of pay, so we dissented
	8   on that issue that we have thought we should make
	9   the special accommodation for people making less
	10   money to pay.
	11        Q.    So how was that resolved, do you
	12   recall?
	13        A.    Well, and the two other locals agreed
	14   that the seasonal people should be given a
	15   special exemption as far as paying the full rate
	16   of pay.
	17        Q.    And was that included in the eventual
	18   contract that was executed?
	19        A.    Yes, it was.
	20        Q.    Now, as business manager and president
	21   for your local, to what extent were you allowed
	22   to have input into the demands and the eventual
	23   agreements that were reached between the three
	24   locals and the City?

 
	1        A.    Complete agreement -- input.
	2        Q.    Before 1995 and those negotiations in
	3   which Ernie Kumerow participated, to what extent
	4   did your local have input into the demands and
	5   eventual agreements that were reached between the
	6   three locals and the City?
	7        A.    We had total input.
	8        Q.    Do you ever feel as though your local
	9   is not allowed to make suggestions or
	10   recommendations for contract demands?
	11        A.    Never, no.  I never had that.
	12        Q.    How would you evaluate the leadership
	13   that Bruno Caruso provided in 1995 for both the
	14   negotiations with the coalition where he served
	15   as chairman and for the three locals with the
	16   City?
	17        A.    Did a fine job.
	18        Q.    And why do you think he did a fine
	19   job?
	20        A.    I'm sorry.  I didn't hear you.
	21        Q.    Why do you think he did a fine job?
	22        A.    Because I was involved with him.
	23        Q.    And what did you see from your
	24   involvement?

 
	1        A.    That we had to work very hard to gain
	2   our accomplishments.
	3        Q.    Did you determine from your
	4   participation and your observations what
	5   objectives Bruno Caruso had in mind when he was
	6   co-chairman for the coalition and participating
	7   with the three locals?
	8        A.    It was always for the best interests
	9   of the working man.
	10        MR. THOMAS:  Move to strike that on the
	11   basis of, at least as to the way the question was
	12   phrased.  He can't testify as to what was in
	13   Mr. Caruso's mind.  He can testify as to what he
	14   observed.
	15        MR. BARR:  That's what I intended to ask the
	16   witness.  I could rephrase it.
	17        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Why don't you just ask
	18   him that again.
	19   BY MR. BARR:
	20        Q.    Based on your observations at the
	21   bargaining table, both with the coalition and
	22   with the three locals, with the City of Chicago,
	23   based on your observations, what did you perceive
	24   to be the objectives that Bruno Caruso had in

 
	1   mind when he negotiated with the City?
	2        MR. THOMAS:  Just, had in mind, take it out
	3   of that question.  That's all.
	4        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I think it's fair.  If
	5   you were watching him, what did you, what did
	6   he -- did it appear to be he was trying to
	7   achieve?
	8        THE WITNESS:  I can answer that.
	9        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Okay.
	10   BY THE WITNESS:
	11        A.    He apparently tried to achieve, as we
	12   all did, the utmost for all our members.
	13   BY MR. BARR:
	14        Q.    To what extent was the coalition
	15   successful in 1995 in achieving the utmost for
	16   its members, in your opinion?
	17        A.    In my opinion, I think we achieved the
	18   best contract for all the locals involved.
	19        Q.    Mr. Naimoli, has your local in, say,
	20   the past five years been involved in
	21   jurisdictional disputes with other locals, our
	22   unions?
	23        A.    On a daily basis.
	24        Q.    Do you literally mean that, every

 
	1   single day?
	2        A.    Every single day.
	3        Q.    And just to give us a few examples,
	4   what unions do you have such disputes with
	5   virtually every day?
	6        A.    Carpenters Union, Operating Engineers
	7   Union, Ironworkers Union, Roofers Union, Cement
	8   Finishers Union, anybody that works alongside us,
	9   basically.
	10        Q.    How do you normally try to resolve
	11   those disputes that you have with other unions?
	12        A.    Normally fight it out on the street at
	13   first.
	14        Q.    Do you mean between your local and the
	15   other organization?
	16        A.    Yes.
	17        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I assume he seems they
	18   settle the dispute on the job site is what he's
	19   trying to say.

	20        THE WITNESS:  Yes.
	21   BY MR. BARR:
	22        Q.    Can we assume you mean orally fight it
	23   out?
	24        A.    Yes, orally.

 
	1        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I can understand the
	2   dispute with the Cement Finishers, pretty close.
	3        THE WITNESS:  All the time.
	4        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Pretty close.  In
	5   fact, I've often wondered why this union never
	6   took them over because they're not that big, are
	7   they not, the Cement Finishers?
	8        THE WITNESS:  Their numbers are dwindling.
	9   Actually, they feel the other way.  They always
	10   tell me why don't I call myself a cement worker
	11   and not a laborer.
	12        THE HEARING OFFICER:  There's not that many
	13   of them?
	14        THE WITNESS:  No, not anymore.
	15        THE HEARING OFFICER:  How does the dispute
	16   arise between you folks and them?  The line is
	17   pretty clear, you pour it and they finish it.
	18        THE WITNESS:  Over the years, naturally, you
	19   know, they tend not to do as much as they did in
	20   the past.
	21        THE HEARING OFFICER:  They have machines
	22   now.
	23        THE WITNESS:  For instance, cutting
	24   concrete, they deem that should be their work and

 
	1   we've always historically sawed concrete.  So we
	2   have arguments on that on a daily basis.
	3        THE HEARING OFFICER:  What's the term you
	4   used again?
	5        THE WITNESS:  Saw, sawing concrete.
	6        THE HEARING OFFICER:  What is that?
	7        THE WITNESS:  When they pour concrete and
	8   they score the lines in it.  They claim that that
	9   should be theirs because they lay it.
	10        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Go ahead.  I was just
	11   curious.
	12   BY MR. BARR:
	13        Q.    All right.  So about what percentage
	14   of the time when you attempt to fight it out with
	15   the other union are you successful in obtaining a
	16   resolution?
	17        A.    I never relinquish any work if I don't
	18   have to.
	19        Q.    But are you able to get a final
	20   agreement with the other union by yourself every
	21   time you try?
	22        A.    No, not always.
	23        Q.    So about how often are you able to?
	24        A.    It depends.  It's hard to say.

 
	1        Q.    Are there times when you have to seek
	2   other assistance then?
	3        A.    Yes.
	4        Q.    And who do you obtain or try to obtain
	5   assistance from?
	6        A.    I have to normally go through the
	7   District Council.
	8        Q.    Tell us typically how that works, who
	9   you would contact, how you contact them.
	10        A.    Normally I walk into Joey's office,
	11   tell him I'm having a dispute with such-and-such
	12   union, can't seem to have it resolved.
	13        Q.    You say walk into Joey's office.  How
	14   close is his office to yours?
	15        A.    I share an office in the same
	16   building.
	17        Q.    Okay.  So after making that initial
	18   contact, what typically happens?
	19        A.    Well, then normally Joe gets on the
	20   phone to the other union and discusses the
	21   situation, and sometimes, you know, through his
	22   insight, he can cut it off there, or maybe not,
	23   and then it calls for further discussions.
	24        Q.    And what happens then when you can't

 
	1   resolve it at the telephone stage and have to
	2   have further discussion?
	3        A.    If it's a large issue, then he'll say
	4   hold your position, and if they want, we'll go
	5   through a resolution board.
	6        Q.    Do you have informal meetings before
	7   you go to a resolution board?
	8        A.    Yes, we do.  The first thing we'll do
	9   is we'll contact the Chicago Building Trades
	10   Council and we'll set up a meeting between the
	11   two bodies and try to resolve it there.
	12        Q.    What is the Building Trades Council?
	13        A.    It's the governing body of the Chicago
	14   construction trades.
	15        Q.    When the Building Trades Council gets
	16   involved, then what occurs?
	17        A.    We'll have an informal meeting there,
	18   try to resolve the issue.
	19        Q.    Is that a form of mediation then?
	20        A.    Somewhat.
	21        Q.    On how many occasions have you had to
	22   go to the Building Trades Council on a
	23   jurisdictional dispute, say, in the last year?
	24        A.    In the last year, a couple times.

 
	1        Q.    And over the last five years, how
	2   often have you had to go there?
	3        A.    At least two times a year.
	4        Q.    Now, in the past year, who has been
	5   the spokesperson for Local 76's position before
	6   the Building Trades Council?
	7        A.    Joey Lombardo.
	8        Q.    Can you describe for us what's
	9   happened on those occasions in the past year at
	10   the meetings where some solution has been
	11   attempted to be informally worked out?
	12        A.    Well, the last resolution was not
	13   worked out.  We went forward with it.  He advised
	14   me to file a -- to the Joint Jurisdictional Board
	15   of the Chicago Building Trades.
	16        Q.    Have there been occasions where you
	17   haven't had to go to the Joint Jurisdictional
	18   Board of the Chicago Building Trades?
	19        A.    Sometimes.

	20        Q.    So describe the typical meeting before
	21   the Building Trades Council where mediation is
	22   attempted.
	23        MR. THOMAS:  Mr. Vaira, please.  I've been
	24   trying to be patient, but this question has

 
	1   nothing to do with the District Council, and I
	2   think, you know, a little bit of background is
	3   fine, but I think there comes a point.
	4        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Give me that question
	5   again.
	6        MR. BARR:  Well, I'm not sure who attends
	7   those meetings, so I'd first like to ask the
	8   witness, with your permission.
	9        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Okay.  But let me
	10   just --
	11        MR. BARR:  I don't recall the exact
	12   question.  We could read it back.
	13        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Give me the subject
	14   matter.
	15        MR. BARR:  We're talking about a
	16   jurisdictional dispute.
	17        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Right.  We're at the

	18   Building Trades Council, Joey Lombardo is their
	19   spokesman.
	20        MR. BARR:  I wasn't sure that was
	21   established.
	22        THE HEARING OFFICER:  He said that.  Joey
	23   Lombardo, he's the major spokesman at the
	24   Council.  You're on whether it's an arbitration

 
	1   or a mediation or something.
	2   BY MR. BARR:
	3        Q.    Describe the typical developments at a
	4   meeting, who says what and how it goes.
	5        THE HEARING OFFICER:  The objection at this
	6   point was?
	7        MR. THOMAS:  I just think that if we go into
	8   10, 15 minutes of detail about what these
	9   meetings are like, the point is a simple one, and
	10   it's probably one that we would be prepared to
	11   stipulate to, that Mr. Lombardo participates and
	12   represents and helps the union, and so forth, and
	13   I have no problem with that.
	14        THE HEARING OFFICER:  What does Joey
	15   Lombardo do with this?
	16        MR. BARR:  I'm not going to ask about the 10
	17   that he's participated in in the last five
	18   years.  He said he's had two a year for five
	19   years.  I'm asking him to give a summary of what
	20   goes on at the typical meeting over the last five
	21   years.
	22        THE HEARING OFFICER:  You can do that in
	23   short fashion.  Tell us what occurs and what
	24   Mr. Lombardo does.

 
	1        MR. BARR:  Sure.  He probably would have
	2   been done with his answer a minute ago.
	3   BY THE WITNESS:

	4        A.    It's very simple.  Mr. Lombardo's
	5   position is as always don't give up any work.
	6        THE HEARING OFFICER:  He argues on behalf of
	7   the local.  Who is on this?  Are members of the
	8   building trade sent down, other members?
	9        THE WITNESS:  Other members of other unions
	10   and also management.
	11        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Management, too?
	12        THE WITNESS:  It's a co-committee.
	13        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Do you get a vote or
	14   is it a mediation?
	15        THE WITNESS:  It's a vote.
	16        THE HEARING OFFICER:  You win or lose?
	17        THE WITNESS:  Yes.
	18   BY MR. BARR:
	19        Q.    Well, is there any recourse available
	20   to Local 76 if you're not satisfied with what
	21   happens at the Building Trades Council meeting
	22   that you just described?
	23        A.    Sometimes there is.
	24        Q.    You mentioned earlier going forward to

 
	1   the Joint Jurisdiction Board of the Chicago
	2   Building Trades.
	3        A.    Yes, that's what I was speaking of,
	4   right.
	5        Q.    And what is that organization?
	6        A.    It's a resolution committee made up of
	7   labor and management to resolve jurisdictional
	8   problems.
	9        Q.    How is it different from the meeting
	10   you just described involving the Building Trades
	11   Council?
	12        A.    The Building Trades Council is
	13   basically attended by the president,
	14   secretary/treasurer of the