Laborers-LIUNA's Chicago District Council Hearings July 22, 1997

1024

1 OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER

2 LABORERS' INTERNATIONAL UNION OF NORTH AMERICA

4 IN RE: )

5 TRUSTEESHIP PROCEEDINGS ) No. 97-30T

6 CHICAGO DISTRICT COUNCIL )

10 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS had in the

11 above-entitled cause at the offices of the FBI,

12 Chicago Division, 219 South Dearborn Street, 9th

13 Floor, on the 22nd day of July, A.D. 1997, at

14 approximately 9:45 a.m.

17 BEFORE: MR. PETER F. VAIRA, Hearing Officer

1025

1 PRESENT:

2 COMEY, BOYD & LUSKIN,

3 (1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W.,

4 Washington, D.C. 20007-5243), by:

5 MR. DWIGHT P. BOSTWICK,

6 MR. ROBERT M. THOMAS, JR.,

7 appeared on behalf of the GEB Attorney;

8 CARMELL, CHARONE, WIDMER, MATHEWS & MOSS, LTD.,

9 (225 West Washington Street, Suite 1000,

10 Chicago, Illinois 60606), by:

11 MR. SHERMAN CARMELL,

12 appeared on behalf of the Chicago

13 District Council of Laborers.

14 ALSO PRESENT:

15 MS. LAURIE HARTMAN;

16 MR. ERNEST T. LUERA,

17 MR. JIM WAGNER,

18 Federal Bureau of Investigation;

19 MR. JAMES O'ROURKE;

20 MS. COLLEEN RAE MASON, Legal Assistant,

21 Barack, Ferrazzano, Kirschbaum,

22 Perlman & Nagelberg.

23 REPORTED BY: JULIANA F. ZAJICEK, CSR 84-2604

24 DONNA S. PAPPAS, CSR 84-2194

1026

1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Ladies and gentlemen,

2 let's go on the record.

3 We are going to continue the hearing

4 and we presume you can hear us over at the

5 Midland Hotel, and we apologize. We had decided

6 to start this at nine o'clock and somehow or

7 other we managed to keep it a secret, so now we

8 are ready to proceed.

9 Sherman Carmell, you are about to

10 examine the witness. And, sir, you are still

11 under oath.

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

13 ROBERT COOLEY,

14 called as a witness herein, having been

15 previously duly sworn and having testified, was

16 examined and testified further as follows:

17 CROSS EXAMINATION

18 BY MR. CARMELL:

19 Q. When you began your career as a

20 Chicago police officer, what ward did you live

21 in?

22 A. It was the 10th Ward. No. I am

23 sorry. I am not sure what my ward was. I worked

24 in the 10th Ward. I worked out there in South

1027

1 Chicago. It was the 10th Ward. My ward, I am

2 not certain which ward mine was.

3 Q. Your father was a police officer?

4 A. Yes, sir, he was.

5 Q. Your grandfather was a police officer?

6 A. Yes, he was.

7 Q. And how many brothers and sisters do

8 you have?

9 A. I have six brothers and two sisters.

10 Q. And how many of your brothers were or

11 are police officers?

12 A. Four of them were policemen.

13 Q. Now, during the time that you were a

14 police officer and an attorney, you were familiar

15 with the term patronage system, weren't you?

16 A. Yes, sir, I was.

17 Q. And the city for purposes -- political

18 purposes, the democratic party was divided into

19 wards, is that correct?

20 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.

21 Q. The ward had a committeeman and had an

22 alderman, is that right?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. And jobs with the City of Chicago came

1028

1 from sponsorship through a ward person, be it the

2 ward committeeman or the alderman, isn't that

3 your understanding?

4 A. That for the most part was the way it

5 seemed to work, yes, sir.

6 Q. Were you familiar at all with either

7 the operation of the office at the 10th Ward or

8 the 11th Ward as far as being open at night for

9 citizens of the ward to come to see the alderman?

10 A. Well, I believe I knew Alderman

11 Vrdolyak was out there at that time and they were

12 open quite often different hours of the day and

13 night. He worked late quite often.

14 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions.

15 If you don't know these, just tell me because

16 many of these are just based on the fact I was

17 born and raised in the City of Chicago.

18 But citizens of a ward who wanted

19 something, be it better garbage pickup or help on

20 traffic tickets, would come to the alderman,

21 either in person or by phone, was that your

22 understanding?

23 A. I believe that was and probably still

24 is being done.

1029

1 Q. And these are ordinary citizens in

2 many cases?

3 A. In a lot of cases, yes, sir.

4 Q. Now, the neighborhood that you have

5 referred to and has been referred to as 26th

6 Street, Chinatown, that was made up of two wards,

7 wasn't it, the 1st ward and the 11th ward?

8 A. Yes, that's correct. Part of that

9 area was the 1st ward and part of it was the 11th

10 ward.

11 Q. In your direct testimony, you referred

12 to the fact that the Mayor of Chicago lived in

13 that area, and he lived in the 11th ward, isn't

14 that right?

15 A. I believe that's true, yes, sir.

16 Q. An area that's generally called, if

17 you know, called Bridgeport?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. And Bridgeport, during the time that

20 you knew it, was primarily people of Irish

21 descent, is that a fair statement?

22 A. A lot of Irish there, yes, sir.

23 Q. And the 1st ward had a number, or a

24 substantial number of people of Italian descent,

1030

1 is that correct?

2 A. In two of the sections of the 1st

3 ward, yes, sir.

4 Q. Now, you said that ordinary citizens

5 in the 26th Street area looked up to people who

6 you identified as organized crime figures. Do

7 you remember that?

8 A. Yes, sir, I did.

9 Q. And these people, or some of these

10 people, might not have known that the persons

11 that they looked up to were organized crime

12 figures, is that a fair statement?

13 A. Well, I think most of the leaders of

14 the group, again, I would have to personally say

15 that I would think most of the people there

16 realized who they were and what they were. I'm

17 certain that they did.

18 Q. And knowing that, these ordinary

19 citizens would come up and speak to these

20 persons?

21 A. Sometime -- well, you know, a lot of

22 times, they would and others wouldn't. Others

23 would just sit there and watch them go by. I

24 mean, again, it's a very -- it's an interesting

1031

1 neighborhood where everything is in like little

2 sections. I mean, there were certain people that

3 I would see out there that would never come out

4 and talk with anybody. They would sit and watch

5 us as we'd come back and forth. Certain ones

6 would never come into the restaurants or the

7 places where I would go.

8 Q. These various sections were pretty

9 close knit, wouldn't you say?

10 A. Oh, there's no question about that.

11 Q. And there were people who grew up in

12 the section, whose fathers were from the section,

13 when I say fathers, parents were from the

14 section, grandparents were from the section and

15 the children were raised in the section, isn't

16 that a fair statement?

17 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

18 Q. Now, when you first met -- when did

19 you first meet Marco D'Amico?

20 A. I met him when I was a police officer

21 working out of the 18th District. That was about

22 '65, '66.

23 Q. And at that time, you knew Marco

24 D'Amico as a gambler?

1032

1 A. When I first met him, yes, sir, he was

2 a person I was introduced to and I made bets

3 through him initially through Ricky Borelli.

4 Q. So he was a bookmaker?

5 A. I knew him to be a bookmaker, yes,

6 sir.

7 Q. When did you come to know that Marco

8 D'Amico, as far as you were concerned, was more

9 than just a bookmaker?

10 A. When I started practicing law and he

11 began referring me business and bringing me

12 business from certain families in the Chicago

13 area.

14 Q. So it was sometime after 1970?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. So --

17 MR. BOSTWICK: Can we get a clarification of

18 what he means by families? He said families.

19 BY MR. CARMELL:

20 Q. So between 19 --

21 MR. BOSTWICK: Can we get a clarification on

22 that point?

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm missing what

24 you're saying.

1033

1 MR. BOSTWICK: He said families. He said

2 certain families and I was wondering if we could

3 get a clarification before Mr. Carmell comes on

4 as to what he means by certain families.

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: I guess I sort of

6 missed it. I got his answer that he started

7 sending him business.

8 MR. BOSTWICK: Business from certain

9 families.

10 THE WITNESS: Well, I use that term in

11 relation to certain -- during the time that I

12 started practicing, I began to realize that these

13 organized crime, I call them families at times, I

14 call them groups --

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Groups.

16 THE WITNESS: -- I call them --

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: You're not just

18 referring to, like, the Murphy family or the

19 Jones family?

20 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I'm talking

21 about --

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Organizations is what

23 you're talking about?

24 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct, yes, sir.

1034

1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

2 BY MR. CARMELL:

3 Q. So between approximately 1960 and

4 sometime after 1970, you know Marco D'Amico only

5 as a bookmaker and gambler, is that right?

6 A. Well, again, I knew he was a bit more

7 as I got to know him because as I gambled and as

8 I was introduced to different major bookmakers,

9 and we had a major card game at my house, and

10 then there was one time when a card cheat got

11 into the card game and we found out about it and

12 I realized probably at that time that he was more

13 than just a bookmaker because they straightened

14 this person out.

15 Q. But it wasn't until you knew Marco

16 D'Amico for a number of years and knew him

17 personally that you heard from Marco D'Amico that

18 he was anything other than a bookmaker or a

19 gambler, isn't that true?

20 A. Could you repeat the question, please.

21 Q. Well, let me try it another way. How

22 did you -- did you ever learn from Marco D'Amico

23 directly that he was other than a gambler and a

24 bookmaker?

1035

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. And that arose because of the long

3 personal relationship that you and he had had

4 from the 1960s on, isn't that correct?

5 A. Well, from the late '60s on, yes, sir.

6 Q. What I'm getting at, when you first

7 met Marco D'Amico, he didn't raise his hand and

8 announce to you, I want to tell you that I'm a

9 street crew boss, did he?

10 A. Well, not as such, but, again, would

11 drop hints and would -- he also took me over,

12 after a short time over to the social club he

13 belonged to and just being in there, you could

14 see that certain things were going on and it was

15 more than just a group of people meeting socially

16 to play cards and whatever.

17 Q. And from that, you surmised that he

18 had a position that was different than being just

19 a bookmaker or a gambler, is that right?

20 A. I saw from his associations and from

21 the other people that were coming and the people

22 he was meeting with that he was more than just

23 merely a bookmaker, yes, sir.

24 Q. While a police officer between 1962

1036

1 and 1970, did you place bets with Marco D'Amico?

2 A. Yes, sir, towards the end of my career

3 in the police department, yes, sir, I did.

4 Q. Did you receive any bribes from Marco

5 D'Amico?

6 A. No, sir, not when I was a police

7 officer, no, sir.

8 Q. You began practicing law in 1970. Can

9 you tell me where your first office was?

10 A. When I first began, I was renting

11 space from Allan Ackerman at 100 North LaSalle.

12 Q. Allan Ackerman is a well-known state

13 and federal criminal attorney in this area, is

14 that right?

15 A. Yes, sir, he is.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes, he is. Yes, he

17 is. I attest to that. I've seen him in action

18 many times.

19 BY MR. CARMELL:

20 Q. Did you sit in on any of the card

21 games in Allan Ackerman's office during that

22 time?

23 A. Yes, sir, I did.

24 Q. And how long did you spend in that

1037

1 office?

2 A. I was with Alan probably for a year,

3 year and a half, maybe. Then I opened my own --

4 then I believe I went and I started renting

5 space, I believe, with Katz, Hirsch & Weiss in

6 the same building and then I got my own office in

7 the same building.

8 Q. How long were you with the Katz --

9 renting space in the Katz firm?

10 A. Probably maybe about a year, year and

11 a half.

12 Q. What was your practice when you began?

13 A. Basically traffic work, criminal

14 work.

15 Q. Had you begun at that time to fix

16 cases?

17 A. From the very beginning, yes, sir, I

18 did.

19 Q. And in the very beginning, the cases

20 that you fixed, did they all come from persons

21 that you would describe as being members of

22 organized crime?

23 A. Well, not all, but a lot of them, a

24 lot of my early business was gambling, other

1038

1 cases, in fact, from organized crime people, yes,

2 sir.

3 Q. But you have cases from let's just

4 call them ordinary citizens -- I don't mean by

5 that that they may be ordinary, but I am trying

6 to distinguish between those that you have

7 referred to as organized crime. You had other

8 than organized crime persons' cases, is that

9 right?

10 A. Yes, sir. I never advertised when I

11 first started. All of my business came from

12 associations or from friends or friends of

13 friends. I would get referrals from some

14 policemen that I knew in different areas, I would

15 get referrals from people that just met me.

16 Again, a majority of my business was probably

17 from Marco and people such as himself. That's

18 where the majority of my business came from.

19 Q. The non-majority business, did you fix

20 those cases also?

21 A. During that time, a lot of matters --

22 I would make sure I won. I won most of my cases

23 in the beginning and if I couldn't win it on the

24 up and up, I would certainly pay if I had to.

1039

1 Q. You testified that after cases were

2 won, the records would be expunged. Do you

3 remember that?

4 A. A lot of times, yes, sir, for a lot of

5 my clients. They would want that done.

6 Q. And that was a state statute that

7 permitted expungement, is that correct?

8 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

9 Q. So there was nothing devious about

10 getting a case expunged, is that correct? You

11 could file a petition under the state statute?

12 A. You could do that, but, again, we used

13 it for a different purpose. We used it so people

14 could have a clean record and get supervision for

15 a second or third or fourth time. In that sense

16 it was probably devious. During that time you

17 were only allowed to get supervision one time.

18 In other words, if you get arrested and charged

19 with something and you are found not guilty, you

20 were entitled to file a petition and have the

21 entire record expunged, but you were not supposed

22 to get it a second time. We would get somebody

23 supervision sometimes on a case and then at the

24 end of the period sometimes we would bribe the

1040

1 judge to make it supervision, terminate it in

2 stanter. He was given supervision for one day

3 and then it was -- then you could go and get it

4 expunged afterwards. Then if he gets arrested a

5 month or two or three months later, it would show

6 it as his first arrest and you could get him

7 supervision all over again.

8 Q. Staying with the expungement statute

9 for a moment again, as you understood it, anybody

10 who was convicted of a misdemeanor or a felony

11 could have the arrest and all of the materials

12 expunged according to statute by a petition filed

13 with the court, is that correct?

14 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

15 Q. And if a person had been placed on

16 supervision, two years after the supervision had

17 ended, the individual could then petition for

18 expungement under the statute, isn't that

19 correct?

20 A. That's the way the statute read, but

21 we worked around that.

22 Q. But you testified that it was expunged

23 and the expungement came from a court order, is

24 that right?

1041

1 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

2 Q. And in some cases you manipulated the

3 sentence, supervision or whatever it may be, in

4 order to make the person eligible under the

5 statute for expungement, isn't that correct?

6 A. Well, yes, and sometimes we just

7 forgot about the statute and the judges sometimes

8 would just forget about the statute and would

9 just expunge it as a matter of course.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: The state's attorney

11 has a right to object to that, does he not?

12 THE WITNESS: Again, in the early days the

13 system was very interesting and they just

14 wouldn't. They just would let it go by and they

15 would say nothing about it.

16 MR. CARMELL: The statute is mandatory. The

17 statute is mandatory and it is mandatory for --

18 it was changed in the '70s, 1971 to make it apply

19 to cases before 1971 and it is a state statute.

20 I can give you the reference if you want it.

21 BY MR. CARMELL:

22 Q. Now, Mother's -- the Mother's bar,

23 where was that located?

24 A. It was on Division Street and it was

1042

1 between Dearborn, Dearborn and State on the north

2 side of the street, on Division Street.

3 Q. And during what period of time did you

4 frequent Mother's with the group that you

5 testified about?

6 A. I started going there when I was in

7 law school and I was a policeman and I was in law

8 school during that time and I lived a short

9 distance from there. I lived only about a half a

10 mile from there.

11 Q. It watts a very popular bar with young

12 people during that period of time, wasn't it?

13 A. Yes, sir, it was.

14 Q. It was what was called or may be

15 called a happening place, it was a place to be if

16 you were young and on the street?

17 A. It was a very interesting place, yes,

18 sir.

19 Q. And when you went to Mother's during

20 the time that you were in law school, where

21 would -- what part of the bar would you go to?

22 A. Well, as I remember, it was a

23 downstairs section and that's where all of the

24 real activity was and I would hang there, I would

1043

1 hang in Butch McGuire's, I would hang in

2 different bars up and down the street there.

3 Those were my spots most every day.

4 Q. When did you get to the end of the bar

5 at Mother's that you described in your direct

6 testimony?

7 A. When did I get to the end of the bar?

8 Q. Yes. When did they let you in to that

9 end?

10 A. I don't understand.

11 Q. Well, as I understood it, there was a

12 part of the bar that you talked about that was

13 reserved for a group of people?

14 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection. I think he was

15 talking about another bar.

16 BY THE WITNESS:

17 A. I wasn't talking about at Mother's. I

18 was talking about later on.

19 BY MR. CARMELL:

20 Q. Faces?

21 A. Later on in Faces.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Faces, Faces.

23 BY THE WITNESS:

24 A. And at Ditka's.

1044

1 BY MR. CARMELL:

2 Q. And Mother's was the situation -- I am

3 sorry. Mother's was the situation where the --

4 there had been a fight and three young persons

5 had been charged with beating up a bartender, is

6 that right?

7 A. Oh, there were a lot more than three.

8 As I remember, there were a whole bunch of them,

9 but there were three in particular that the

10 parents were concerned about.

11 Q. Let's talk about Faces then for a

12 minute because I confused the name. That also

13 was a happening place, wasn't it?

14 A. That was a nightclub, one of the most

15 popular nightclubs probably in the city.

16 Q. And there were a lot of legitimate

17 people who went there, weren't there?

18 A. Oh, yes, sir.

19 Q. And did you go there while you were a

20 police officer?

21 A. No, sir.

22 Q. When did you begin going there?

23 A. When I got involved with these people,

24 when I began hanging with them because it was a

1045

1 private club and you were supposed to pay a

2 membership and I never paid a membership because

3 I was with them. They just let me come in.

4 Q. It was very popular and it was usually

5 very crowded, isn't that correct?

6 A. Most of the time, yes, sir.

7 Q. And you had an area at the bar where

8 you would spend your time with this group, is

9 that right?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. And the group could consist of

12 anywhere from 6 to 10 to 15 or 20 people, is that

13 right?

14 A. There was usually a good size crowd

15 around them, yes, sir.

16 Q. And not all of the people were there

17 always at the same time, is that right?

18 A. Well, there were three or four that

19 were -- just about every day were there. I mean,

20 others were there and were not there, but there

21 were Butchie -- at one time Butchie -- I am

22 sorry, not Butchie, but Larry, Richie, Larry and

23 Richie.

24 MR. BOSTWICK: Can we get a clarification on

1046

1 the last names if we are going to go through

2 this.

3 BY THE WITNESS:

4 A. Well, Larry Pusiteri, I think Richie

5 Catazone and a couple of others were always

6 there. When I say always, I mean almost always

7 on Wednesday and Friday nights. They would be

8 there sometimes other nights during the week too,

9 but others were sometimes there and were

10 sometimes not there and people would come and

11 people would go.

12 BY MR. CARMELL:

13 Q. And I believe you mentioned something

14 about that the cute girls in the place would come

15 to that area of the bar, is that right?

16 A. People were -- certain cute females

17 were invited, not too many strange males were

18 invited. They didn't like the competition.

19 Q. And at any given time, how many

20 females would be in this group?

21 A. At any time probably as many females

22 as there were males, sometimes more.

23 Q. And to your understanding, were a

24 number of these females, if I can say, citizens,

1047

1 just people from the neighborhood or working

2 girls, and I mean by working girls, legitimately

3 working girls?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It was also a very big place, I am

6 talking about Faces, for girls to come to?

7 A. Oh, yes. It was one of the happening

8 places in town.

9 Q. And Faces is located right in a very

10 popular area for young people, wasn't it?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. In fact, it was right around Faces

13 when the Bulls won that -- one of their

14 championships that the cars got overturned and

15 the young people had spilled out into the

16 street. Are you aware of that area?

17 A. I was -- I don't believe I was around

18 when the Bulls won -- started winning their

19 championships.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's a very small

21 area of very close -- there is Butch McGuire's,

22 Mother's, what's next to that, Treetops or --

23 THE WITNESS: No, but see Faces was a little

24 bit down the street. Faces was a little bit

1048

1 south of there. You had Butch McGuire's, you had

2 Mother's and you had a couple of other spots on

3 Division Street within about a two-block area and

4 then if you go up to State Street and you make a

5 right turn and you go south, it was about three

6 blocks up. It was past -- I lived in Newberry

7 Plaza which was about two blocks from Division

8 Street and you veer off on the side to Rush

9 Street and Faces was on Rush Street. It was

10 another block or two down.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Relatively close

12 proximity?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes. We walked back and forth

14 a lot of times from Division Street to those

15 places.

16 BY MR. CARMELL:

17 Q. How old were you during this period of

18 time?

19 A. Well, I was a policeman when I was

20 20. That was in '62. Around '70, I was 28, 30

21 years old, and moved on up from there.

22 Q. Were the people who were within this

23 group that you've described about the same age?

24 A. Some were older than us. I mean, but,

1049

1 some of us -- like I say, Richie was, Richie had

2 to be a good 10 years or more older than us.

3 Q. He was an old 32 or 33, yeah.

4 A. He was an old 40 at the time.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. But there were some people older.

7 There were some older people. Marco was a bit

8 older than me. Some of the others, now, Bobby

9 was younger than me. Bobby Abbinanti was a few

10 years younger than me. They were various ages.

11 Q. Was there a lot of drinking?

12 A. On occasion, I mean, yes. Some of

13 these people drank a lot. Marco had a real bad

14 drinking problem. Others drank and obviously

15 were able to hold it.

16 Q. There were occasions where fights

17 broke out within the group, isn't that right?

18 A. Not within the group. Usually if a

19 fight broke out, it was some poor stranger coming

20 by and maybe talking to one of the girls and

21 somebody would get upset and these guys would do

22 a job on some people in there.

23 Q. Now, for what period of time did you

24 spend at Faces, by years, with this group?

1050

1 A. Probably three, four years.

2 Q. And when did that end?

3 A. Well, when I moved away from the

4 neighborhood, when I moved out to the suburbs,

5 then I would come down maybe once a week, once

6 every couple weeks or whatever. I moved away in,

7 let's see, about '82, '83 is when I moved out to

8 the suburbs.

9 Q. Now, how long a period of time did you

10 have an office by yourself? You moved away from

11 the Katz firm, I believe it is.

12 A. When I moved away, when I moved away

13 from Katz, it was to get my own office. I had an

14 office on the same floor where Johnny then moved

15 their office next door to me after we became

16 associated. I stayed there until I broke away

17 from them. Then I moved to 180 North and I moved

18 in with Bruce Wexler and some other attorneys up

19 there and I stayed there for about two, three

20 years, and then I formed a partnership with

21 Senator Lemke out on the south side and I moved

22 out to Archer Avenue on the south side.

23 Q. Was it a southern suburb that you

24 moved to?

1051

1 A. My own residence was in the southwest

2 suburbs, but my office was still in Chicago. It

3 was over on Archer Avenue in Chicago there.

4 Q. And how did your practice change, if

5 at all, when you formed your partnership with, or

6 moved in with Senator Lemke?

7 A. Well, I began a full service

8 partnership. I started doing -- we took in

9 everything from wills and from property matters

10 to personal injury. I did everything. At that

11 time, I was trying to break away from the

12 criminal practice and I probably had maybe 20

13 percent, 25 percent criminal work and the rest

14 was basically civil and civil related.

15 Q. And for what period of time were you

16 with Senator Lemke, the years?

17 A. For about three, four years, up until

18 a couple years before I began doing the work with

19 the Justice Department.

20 Q. And you began work with the Justice

21 Department in March of 1986, is that correct?

22 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

23 Q. And you left the City of Chicago

24 permanently in what year?

1052

1 A. '89. I believe it was November. It

2 was late in the year, November, December of '89.

3 Q. Now, the 20 percent of your criminal

4 business with -- 20 percent of the business that

5 was criminal while with Senator Lemke, did all

6 that business come from Marco D'Amico and people

7 like him?

8 A. No. I had tried to break away from

9 them a few years before that. I had a bad

10 situation with Marco where they referred a case

11 to me, Frank Renella, and while I was

12 representing Frank Renella, it was brought to my

13 attention that he was a stool pigeon who had been

14 informing on some dope dealers and when I was

15 told that, I knew that something would happen to

16 Frank when they found out and I went and warned

17 him, and when I warned him, I was told I was

18 going to be killed afterwards for that, for not

19 doing what I was supposed to do.

20 Q. Who told you that?

21 A. Well, somebody called me and warned me

22 and I left town and when I came back, I talked to

23 Marco about that.

24 Q. Did you then stop doing business,

1053

1 criminal business, with the people we've talked

2 about?

3 A. For a short period of time, yes, sir.

4 Q. How long?

5 A. I'd say it was six months to a year.

6 I stopped doing business with Marco and Marco

7 indicated, of course, he would never give me more

8 business, et cetera, and I told him I didn't want

9 their business. I was still getting some other

10 cases. But that was one of the reasons, again,

11 why I had broken away from these people and I

12 didn't want their business at that time.

13 Q. Did you end your social relationship

14 with Marco D'Amico?

15 A. For a period of time, yes, sir.

16 Q. How long?

17 A. I'd say it was about maybe six months

18 to a year.

19 Q. Did you continue during that six

20 months to a year to frequent the various bars in

21 Chicago that you had talked about?

22 A. Not those bars. I began to spend a

23 lot more time around 26th Street, in that area,

24 rather than going down to the Rush Street and

1054

1 those places. I would still on occasion go down

2 there, but I began spending a lot more time right

3 there in the 26th Street area and in Chinatown.

4 I had been referred that case by Pat

5 Marcy with the Chinese people and I had become

6 very friendly with the Chinese people, with On

7 Leong, and I began spending time both in

8 Chinatown and also in 26th Street.

9 Q. With reference to the On Leong case,

10 you testified that the On Leong group paid you

11 $100,000, is that correct?

12 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

13 Q. Are you aware that Wilson Moy told the

14 FBI that he had paid you $150,000?

15 A. Wilson Moy lied then to the FBI.

16 Q. So the 302 that we have in evidence

17 here in which Wilson Moy says that he gave you

18 $150,000, of which he took $25,000 and you kept

19 $25,000, is a lie?

20 A. Oh, yes, sir. I brought all this to

21 their attention when I came in. There had been a

22 problem when I was in New York, I was

23 representing the same people on a matter in

24 Boston from Eddie Chin, from the main Chinese

1055

1 individual in New York, and while I was in New

2 York, I was questioned as to how much I got paid

3 on my case, and I wouldn't tell them because I,

4 for whatever reason, got the impression that

5 Wilson had pocketed something for himself on that

6 money out of New York, and when I came back, I

7 was invited to a convention back in Chicago, and

8 when I was there, I was with Wing, who was one of

9 their main enforcers and Wing confronted Wilson

10 Moy about the amount that they had really paid me

11 and how much he had pocketed, and I had a little

12 discussion then with Wilson Moy about that

13 indicating that, you know, I don't know or care

14 how much he got, you know, I wasn't going to tell

15 these people. Well, he beefed on himself and he

16 apparently told them that he had pocketed -- he

17 told the people in New York he had pocketed the

18 additional money. Marcy questioned me about

19 that.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: What's the, aside from

21 what is true now, what is --

22 MR. CARMELL: Exhibit 42.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Just outline for me,

24 because there's a question --

1056

1 MR. CARMELL: It appears on Page 3, and

2 taking my cue from my fellow counselor, I'm going

3 to read the part.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Exhibit 42?

5 MR. CARMELL: Yes. It's page 3.

6 BY MR. CARMELL:

7 Q. Quote, "Concerning Cooley's fee, Moy

8 said Cooley told him jury trial would cost about

9 $75,000." Let me skip down because I'll get to

10 the sentence, the one sentence. Quote,

11 "According to Moy, the Olma, O-l-m-a, was

12 charged a total of $150,000. Of this Moy

13 maintained 125,000 went to Cooley and Wilson Moy

14 and Eddie Chan skimmed an additional 25,000 which

15 they split."

16 And the sum and substance of it is

17 your testimony is that that was a lie?

18 A. Well, again, Wilson Moy himself only

19 gave me 10,000 initially and then 40,000 after

20 the case, and I went to New York and I received

21 the additional 50,000 from Eddie when I was

22 brought to New York because they wanted to pay me

23 there. So actually Wilson only paid me 50,000.

24 I got the other 50,000 from Eddie back in New

1057

1 York.

2 Q. Whatever may be said of who gave what,

3 your testimony is that you received only $100,000

4 for the On Leong case?

5 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. It was

6 actually -- it wasn't the On Leong case. It was

7 Lenny Chow and two other people. It was on a

8 murder case.

9 Q. I want to talk about your testimony

10 concerning the dice game that took place a few

11 blocks away from the Hungry Hound Restaurant. Do

12 you remember that testimony?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. And you testified that you were there

15 for several years in 1978, maybe to early '80s,

16 is that correct?

17 A. It was somewhere around that time,

18 yes, sir.

19 Q. And how many times would you have

20 attended that dice game during that period?

21 A. A number of occasions. Probably, I'd

22 say, a dozen or more times I would stop in.

23 Q. You testified that all kinds of people

24 were at that game, is that right?

1058

1 A. Well, there were a lot of people. A

2 lot of people were at the game, yes, sir.

3 Q. And that there was a lot of -- it was

4 a dice game, there was a lot of yelling and

5 shouting that went on at the game?

6 A. Oh, yes. It was quite often very

7 noisy in there. Again, it wasn't a couple

8 blocks. It was down the block. I don't believe

9 it was two blocks away. It was across the street

10 and down the block on the north side of the

11 street, but it wouldn't have been two blocks away

12 from there.

13 Q. Were there, on the occasions you were

14 there, were there people who you did not

15 recognize or wouldn't identify as being organized

16 crime people in the game?

17 A. Well, there were people I didn't

18 know. I mean, there were certainly, I'm sure,

19 some gamblers there that may have just strictly

20 been gamblers and not organized crime people.

21 Q. Now, you got into the game, or got

22 into the room because somebody who was known

23 brought you to the game, isn't that right?

24 A. Well, I did not call Larry to tell him

1059

1 I was coming that night. I just went on the spur

2 of the moment. I remember I went there with Cal

3 Sirkin the first time.

4 Q. And when you went there, the person

5 behind the door saw you and wouldn't let you in

6 until he saw Cal Sirkin, isn't that right?

7 A. The person that was there, yes, sir.

8 The person that was there would not let me in

9 when I first -- when I knocked.

10 Q. Now, you said that certain people

11 stood around, or sat around, didn't play the

12 game. Do you recall that?

13 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

14 Q. You were one of them?

15 A. I was one of them.

16 Q. And you mentioned Rich Catazone, he

17 was one, is that correct?

18 A. On occasion, Richie would be there.

19 There were a few times when Richie would be

20 there, yes, sir.

21 Q. And he wouldn't be playing?

22 A. I don't recall Richie playing the

23 game, not when I was there.

24 Q. And your testimony was on several

1060

1 occasions a person you identified as Leo Caruso

2 was there?

3 A. On a couple of occasions, yes, sir.

4 Q. And did you ever see him at the game,

5 playing the game?

6 A. I never saw him playing, no, sir.

7 Q. Could he have been playing the game?

8 A. I mean, he may have on occasion, but

9 when I saw him, I didn't notice him playing at

10 the game. He was just there.

11 Q. And how long would you spend at the

12 game?

13 A. I might be there an hour, hour and a

14 half, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little

15 less.

16 Q. And what would you do while you were

17 there?

18 A. Just chitchat with people.

19 Q. So you were not watching the game at

20 all times?

21 A. I mean, I would be watching it. I'd

22 be curious when there would be a lot of activity,

23 I'd watch somebody win and lose. But, again, I

24 say I never played. I may have played once or

1061

1 twice for some short period of time, but dice was

2 not my game, and, you know, I just basically

3 would be there because I liked being there.

4 Q. How big was the room?

5 A. It was a good size room. Well, you

6 walked through the front, you went through the

7 front part first, it was like a store, it would

8 have been a store, probably, then there was an

9 areaway you walked back and you go back into a

10 big room in the back, a much bigger room in the

11 back, which then would lead out somewhere to the

12 alley. I guess, I was told they had an escape

13 route out there which would have gotten them out

14 the back in case there was trouble.

15 Q. How big was the room where the one

16 dice table was, where it was being played?

17 A. The room was actually probably a

18 little bit bigger than this, the room we're in.

19 Q. Do you have any -- can you give any

20 dimensions?

21 A. Oh, I don't know. This room is maybe

22 about 25 feet, 30 feet.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: About 20 by 50. What

24 do you say, gentlemen?

1062

1 BY THE WITNESS:

2 A. I'd say the room was probably about

3 the same size as this.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Maybe a little bit

5 longer than 50, a little bit longer than 50.

6 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me interject one

7 comment. You characterized it as one dice

8 table. He may -- you know, the record will stand

9 for itself, but I think he testified yesterday

10 that there might have been two.

11 MR. CARMELL: I believe his testimony was

12 there was another room where there was a dice

13 table, but at least he testified to one was in

14 use.

15 BY THE WITNESS:

16 A. No. I am saying this is a long time

17 back. I remember when you walked in, there would

18 be one table they would be playing at that was

19 directly in front of us as we were there. There

20 was like standing room and room to walk back a

21 little bit behind it. And I am almost sure over

22 a little bit to the right of that as you walk in,

23 I am pretty sure there was another dice table.

24 There was a table of sorts. I am pretty sure it

1063

1 was another dice table. Again, I am pretty

2 sure -- I am almost sure there were times when

3 there would be a couple of games going on, but,

4 again, I am not positive of that. I am pretty

5 sure there was a second dice table in there.

6 Whether it was being used or not I don't remember

7 right now.

8 Q. How many people would be in the room

9 at any given time?

10 A. Oh, I'd say probably 30 people, 30

11 people, maybe a few more.

12 Q. Now, the person you identified as

13 Frank Caruso, how many times did you see him in

14 that dice game during the period of time?

15 A. On a couple of occasions I saw him in

16 there.

17 Q. And did you ever see him playing?

18 A. I don't recall him playing. I don't

19 recall seeing him play. I just remember him

20 being there with a few other people.

21 Q. When you say with a few other people,

22 what do you mean by that?

23 A. There would be three or four or five

24 people just like standing in the back of the

1064

1 scenes, just milling around there. They had food

2 and stuff that was laid out there and whatever

3 and stuff for you to drink if you wanted

4 something to drink.

5 Q. So there was -- I am going to

6 grandiose it calling it a buffet. There was a

7 table there of food and it was free to go back

8 there and get food and you would see a person

9 identified as Frank Caruso on occasion, on the

10 occasions you saw him, at least one of the places

11 that you saw him was at that food table?

12 A. And milling around the room. It was

13 like a bizarre setting. As I say, the room was

14 relatively -- a relatively dark room. There were

15 lights in there, but it was a relatively dark

16 room. It was like a very interesting

17 environment. It was a very electric environment

18 in there.

19 Q. Returning for a minute to your

20 practice, you were very careful, were you not,

21 not to discuss the cases -- well, strike that.

22 If you took a case, you did not tell

23 the person who gave you the gambling case that

24 you were going to fix it, you just told him you'd

1065

1 take care of it, is that right?

2 A. Again, it would depend on the person.

3 I always assumed when I was dealing with people

4 that I was talking into a wire. That was always

5 my own practice when I practiced. When I would

6 talk to what I would call a stranger, somebody

7 that was not let's say a Marco or a Larry or a

8 Richie or Johnny or Patty or somebody that I was

9 in business with consistently, I would be very

10 careful how I would say things. I would quite

11 often indicate to a person coming in -- even when

12 a bookmaker would come in, a lot of times I never

13 told them what I was going to do. Marco would

14 send the people to me. They would come in. A

15 lot of times I wouldn't even have them come in.

16 A lot of times I would say I'll meet you in

17 court. I'll handle it. They a lot of times

18 would want you to say the magic words.

19 I would just say I will do what I can

20 do. I am pretty sure you'll be okay or I am

21 pretty sure there won't be a problem. It was not

22 that often that I would talk to a stranger and

23 tell them that I was going to fix something. I

24 would not use those words.

1066

1 Q. Who did you tell that you had fixed

2 the Harry Aleman case?

3 A. I didn't tell anybody other than the

4 people I was dealing with.

5 Q. Which would have been Pat Marcy?

6 A. Well, Pat Marcy wanted it done. I

7 mean, so, I just -- I never said to Pat, the case

8 is fixed. I said it will be taken care of and

9 the right thing will happen. I never discussed

10 that with -- well, Johnny D'Arco. I told my

11 partner obviously. At the time I was partners

12 with Johnny D'Arco. I discussed it with Pat

13 DeLeo I am sure because they were with me and

14 they were part of our group, but I did not

15 tell -- I did not tell any of my other friends

16 obviously that I was doing this.

17 Q. And you didn't tell them afterwards

18 that you had done it?

19 A. Well, not until I came forward and

20 started working with the federal authorities.

21 Q. Up until March of 1980 -- let me go

22 back. The Aleman case was fixed when?

23 A. I believe it was in '77, I believe.

24 Q. Between '77 and 1986, you did not tell

1067

1 any of your friends that you had fixed the case?

2 A. I can't think of anybody I did tell or

3 I would want to tell. That was not something I

4 would ever discuss with strangers. When I say

5 strangers, I mean somebody who wasn't part of our

6 world. I just didn't -- I had my own friends. I

7 had a lot of good friends and legitimate friends

8 that I dealt with. I would never discuss

9 anything like that with them.

10 Q. Did you tell your non-legitimate

11 friends, aside from the people you just

12 mentioned, that you had fixed the Harry Aleman

13 case?

14 A. I didn't tell, but I was aware a lot

15 of them knew it. A lot of them found out, but

16 not from me. I am talking about the organized

17 crime people. A lot of them. Well, see, when I

18 fixed the case, Marco was involved in the fixing

19 of the case. When I met with Harry, the first

20 time I met Harry to discuss the fact that I was

21 taking care of everything, Marco arranged the

22 meeting. Marco was the one who arranged to meet

23 in a hotel over there up in the northwest

24 suburbs, and so who all Marco told I don't know,

1068

1 but obviously Marco knew about it. He was

2 inter-involved in it.

3 Q. Let's go to Counselor's Row. There

4 was a table which has now been described as the

5 First Ward table, and when you would be there,

6 who would sit at that table?

7 A. Freddie Roti was there every day for

8 breakfast, he was there for lunch, he would be

9 there on again, off again.

10 When I first began with this

11 particular group, Pat Marcy would be there

12 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday

13 initially. He would be there four days a week,

14 but Pat would never usually come in until about

15 11:30, twelve o'clock. Freddie would usually be

16 gone about 4:00, 4:30, 5:00. Freddie would no

17 longer be there. Pat would be there. You'd

18 have -- I mean, a lot of elected officials, a

19 lot of mob guys would come there, some other

20 lawyers, a few other lawyers that were

21 inter-involved with these people and sometimes

22 Freddie would have a lot of other alderman, the

23 city clerk, the city clerk would be there.

24 Basically political people and inter-connected

1069

1 people. As I say, a lot of union, different

2 union officials from all around the county would

3 be coming back and forth to the table.

4 Q. Let me try and break this down a bit

5 if I might. Counselor's Row was located on what

6 street?

7 A. On LaSalle Street.

8 Q. And it was directly west of the City

9 Hall/County Building at that time, was it not?

10 A. That's correct, directly across the

11 street.

12 Q. And that's where all of the county

13 offices were, all of the city offices were and

14 some of the courts were there or they were just

15 in the building that was a block away?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. I don't think the Daley Center had

18 been built at that time, had it?

19 A. Oh, yeah, but it wasn't called the

20 Daley Center initially. Initially -- in fact, a

21 lot of cases were in that court, criminal and

22 civil, but it wasn't called the Daley Center. It

23 was called something else before that, but it was

24 there.

1070

1 Q. So all of the workings of the city and

2 county were in the building that was just across

3 the street to the east of Counselor's Row?

4 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

5 Q. And there -- at the First Ward table

6 as I understand it while you would be there,

7 there would be just numbers of people coming up

8 and going, politicians, is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Judges?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. City officials?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. County officials?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Labor union officials?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. People you have identified as

19 organized crime people?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. And at any given time when you would

22 be there at the table, how many persons would be

23 seated or near the table who would be described

24 as what we have just gone through?

1071

1 MR. BOSTWICK: I am sorry. Wait a minute.

2 That seems too broad a question.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, the question is

4 at any given time how many of these either

5 politicals, OC or public officials?

6 MR. BOSTWICK: So is he going to break that

7 down into groups?

8 MR. CARMELL: No, I am not asking groups. I

9 am just asking how many people could be at a

10 table at a given time or standing at the table.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: The description was

12 there are no really strangers hanging around

13 there. They had to fall into this group.

14 THE WITNESS: If you weren't invited, if you

15 weren't part of either the inter-circle or were

16 there for some specific reason for a short period

17 of time, it was -- as I say, it was like

18 Freddie's table early in the morning. Freddie

19 would have breakfast for as long as I knew him

20 almost every day there. He would be there at

21 like eight o'clock. A lot of different alderman

22 would be there at that particular time and you

23 would have -- like the city clerk was quite often

24 there. Stanley was there a lot and would be

1072

1 there. He would have a few of his people with

2 him. There would be other people inter-connected

3 with the alderman.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Stanley?

5 BY MR. CARMELL:

6 Q. Kusper?

7 A. Kusper. For a long time Stanley would

8 be there. Stanley would be there in the morning

9 sometimes with Freddie's group.

10 Then when Marcy would come in, it like

11 became -- it was like Marcy's table and so

12 Freddie would be fine and with his people until

13 about noon. When Pat would come in, if there

14 were no open chairs, the people would have to get

15 up and Pat usually had the same seat. Pat

16 usually sat where he could face what was coming

17 in. He liked to sit in the corner either against

18 the one wall or the wall to the left of him where

19 he could see everything coming and going around

20 him.

21 When Pat was there, there was rarely

22 an open chair from noon until about maybe two,

23 three o'clock. Then Pat would quite often go

24 upstairs to the ward office and do whatever he

1073

1 does. Then sometimes the table would -- there

2 would be nobody there. I would be there by

3 myself with my friends sometimes during that

4 period.

5 Q. So the First Ward office was upstairs

6 of Counselor's Row?

7 A. That was upstairs, yes, sir.

8 Q. And weren't there numbers of people

9 who would come by just to say hello, how are you,

10 Pat, how is it going?

11 A. Oh, all of the time, all of the time.

12 Q. Who didn't have anything more to say

13 than that?

14 A. I mean every day. I mean, we are

15 talking about hundreds of people probably in a

16 given day would walk by and just say hi and Pat

17 would just say hi and they would go about their

18 business.

19 Q. Now, you testified that legitimate, as

20 you put it, First Ward business was discussed at

21 the table. What would you describe as legitimate

22 First Ward business?

23 A. Well, non-fixing of cases.

24 Q. Sir, don't give me the negatives. Try

1074

1 and give me the positives.

2 A. Again, there were a series of alderman

3 down there a lot where they would be discussing

4 different political things that were going on,

5 they would be discussing parties or events or a

6 lot of things. Sometimes people from the ward

7 might come and sit and talk to the alderman there

8 about different problems or different things.

9 There were a whole series of legitimate things

10 that would take place in the every day -- in the

11 every day comings and goings.

12 Q. When you wanted to speak to Pat Marcy

13 about as you put it dirty things, you would go

14 out, you would do one of two things, you would go

15 out into the hall or go to the booth near the

16 register, is that right?

17 A. Well, I would walk in, a lot of times

18 it would be arranged. Pat would leave a message

19 for me or tell me to come. As I would see him,

20 when I would walk up, as soon as he would see me

21 we would make contact and I knew what to do. He

22 would make contact or I would, I would walk out

23 into the hall and he would come walking out right

24 behind me. Other times I would come in there not

1075

1 knowing something had to be done and when I would

2 walk in, as soon as Pat would see me he would

3 just motion me and he would go as a rule out into

4 the hall, but sometimes like when it was real

5 crowded, a lot of people were out there, he would

6 walk to the back of the room or on a given

7 occasion walk over to a booth alongside the cash

8 register, a short distance from the table.

9 Q. You gave in testimony instances with a

10 person you identified as Bruno Caruso having gone

11 out into the hall with Pat Marcy --

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. -- on a couple of occasions?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. And how many people on a given day

16 would go out into the hall with Pat Marcy while

17 you were there?

18 A. Some days nobody, other days one,

19 maybe two people, sometimes maybe even more

20 depending. I mean, Judge Scotillo would come

21 there a lot because Tony ran things over for him

22 over in the Civic Center. It used to be called

23 the Civic Center before the Daley Center. He

24 used to come over there and a lot of times he

1076

1 would come over there two, three times a day when

2 they were doing different deeds of theirs. Other

3 people too would come sometimes once, twice a

4 week, people like myself.

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who is this you are

6 talking about might come over two, three times?

7 THE WITNESS: Tony Scotillo when he was over

8 there. He was the one who did a lot of the

9 illegal things for Pat with the other judges in

10 particular.

11 BY MR. CARMELL:

12 Q. When you saw the person identified as

13 Bruno Caruso, were there other people in and

14 around the First Ward table when he came in?

15 A. There were always people around the

16 table. I mean, when I say always, I can't think

17 of many times when there weren't a lot of people,

18 a lot of people there.

19 Q. Did you know at the time you saw Bruno

20 Caruso whether he held any position with any

21 union?

22 A. When I first met them and saw them,

23 no, I didn't know. When I very first saw certain

24 people, I didn't. I gained knowledge after a

1077

1 while that they had some position. What exactly

2 it was, I didn't know. I didn't know what any of

3 them did.

4 Q. And that carried through to your

5 testimony that you knew about Bruno Caruso in

6 Counselor's Row?

7 A. That's correct, even up until the time

8 I came to work for the government I never knew

9 what these people did or didn't do. I never

10 asked.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Sherman, if you're at

12 a spot, you may want a physiological break here.

13 MR. CARMELL: I think this is a good time

14 for it, if I might.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Take a

16 10-minute break.

17 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)

18 BY MR. CARMELL:

19 Q. Putting an end to the Counselor's Row

20 and people who would go out in the hall with Pat

21 Marcy, let me get the categories, there would be

22 judges, is that correct?

23 A. Well, there were a few judges I saw

24 him dealing with, yes, sir.

1078

1 Q. Some politicians?

2 A. There were, yes, sir, there were a few

3 politicians I would see him go outside with.

4 Q. Some attorneys?

5 A. A few attorneys, yes, sir.

6 Q. And some people who you didn't know

7 who they were?

8 A. Well, I mean, you know, some I -- some

9 others that I knew and some I didn't know, yes,

10 sir. There were some people I didn't know.

11 Q. Now, let's talk about the Rosewood

12 Restaurant. Where was it located?

13 A. You mean the Redwood, you mean?

14 Q. Redwood. I'm sorry.

15 A. It was on, I believe around 31st

16 Street and it was right around, I think,

17 Wallace. It was right there in the center of the

18 activity.

19 Q. Was it in the middle of the block?

20 A. No, it was on the corner.

21 Q. And so it was on the corner of Wallace

22 and 31st?

23 A. I'm indicating it was 31st or 32nd,

24 either 31st or 32nd. I think 31st was the busy

1079

1 street. It was not on a busy street, east-west

2 street. It might have been 32nd. And I believe

3 it was like Wallace or one of those streets right

4 there. It was on the southwest corner.

5 Q. And when did you first begin

6 frequenting Rosewood?

7 A. The Redwood.

8 Q. Redwood.

9 A. Redwood.

10 Q. Let me write this down.

11 A. Oh, I started probably 20 years ago, I

12 started going there, I went there for probably

13 about 8, 9, 10 years, starting about '7 -- in the

14 late '70s, early '80s.

15 Q. And when did you stop going to the

16 Redwood?

17 A. When I left town. I wore a wire in

18 there on a few occasions, not with Nicky. Nicky

19 was a straight -- Nicky wasn't organized crime.

20 He wasn't involved with those people, but it was

21 his bar, he owned the bar. But I wore a wire in

22 there when I talked to Dirge and a couple other

23 occasions I wore a wire in there when I was

24 dealing with some of the organized crime people

1080

1 in the neighborhood.

2 Q. And where would the barbecue be held?

3 A. He'd sometimes barbecue right out in

4 front. He had a grill he'd put out in front.

5 Q. Out front where?

6 A. On, I believe it would have been 32nd

7 Street, right there on the sidewalk.

8 Q. And were there tables outside?

9 A. He would have, like, like a little

10 stool, there would be like stools over there

11 along side the wall of the restaurant and I

12 imagine there were tables we put out there. The

13 food would then be put on the tables, and so

14 forth.

15 Q. Well, when you were out there at the

16 barbecue, where would you be standing or seated?

17 A. Just standing around there. There was

18 an area of sidewalk that was right there along

19 side the restaurant.

20 Q. And it ran along 32nd Street?

21 A. I believe it was 32nd Street there.

22 Q. Well, one of the number streets, 31st,

23 32nd Street, would that be fair?

24 A. Yes, sir.

1081

1 Q. Which side of 32nd Street -- let me

2 call it 32nd Street with the understanding we may

3 be off one or two. Which side of 32nd Street was

4 the restaurant located?

5 A. On the south side.

6 Q. And which way did the traffic go that

7 would pass by the restaurant closest to --

8 A. Both streets were two-way streets. He

9 had the restaurant -- it was more a bar, it

10 wasn't a restaurant, it was basically a bar.

11 They may have had sandwiches and stuff there.

12 And when I say he had a barbecue, that was just

13 his own thing. He sometimes for the, you know,

14 for his customers, he would have a barbecue out

15 in front and would just barbecue something. But

16 it was mainly just a bar where people went and

17 drank.

18 But it sat right in the corner, so on

19 the one side, you had, I believe, that was

20 Wallace, and I'm saying I think it was Wallace,

21 one of the streets that was pretty active with

22 traffic going up and down, and on 32nd Street,

23 and I think, again, it was 32nd, you had traffic

24 going east and west.

1082

1 Q. And the barbecue would be held on the

2 32nd Street side of the restaurant?

3 A. Well, when I say barbecue, he would be

4 barbecuing stuff out there. As I remember, any

5 time he did it, he usually did it right there

6 because there was a lot of room right there

7 alongside the restaurant.

8 Q. And a person who would be at the

9 barbecue would be on the 32nd Street side of the

10 restaurant, is that correct?

11 A. Well, we'd be standing on both sides.

12 I mean, you'd walk around the front, people would

13 be walking around on the one street or walking on

14 the other street. We'd be milling around there.

15 Q. So the customers, let me call them

16 customers, including you, would be milling around

17 on 32nd Street or on the Wallace side, is that

18 correct?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. And there would be foot traffic, is

21 that correct?

22 A. Not a lot of foot traffic around

23 there, no, there was not -- there was never a lot

24 of foot traffic around there other than people

1083

1 coming to the bar.

2 Q. And as far as automobile traffic, it

3 was a well trafficked area, is that correct?

4 A. There would be activity up and down

5 both the streets.

6 Q. And for what years did Nicky run or

7 serve this barbecue?

8 A. I mean, as long as I knew him. I

9 mean, he would on a given occasion do it, like

10 for the 4th of July, periods like that.

11 Sometimes he would just do it.

12 Q. Now, the barbecue obviously was held

13 when there was warm weather, is that correct?

14 A. I don't remember if we had it during

15 the cold weather or not. We may have on a given

16 occasion on the spur of the moment done

17 something, but usually it would be when the

18 weather was nice.

19 Q. Now, you identified having seen Angelo

20 LaPietra driving through the neighborhood. Do

21 you remember that?

22 A. On different occasions we would see

23 him drive through, yes, sir.

24 Q. Did you know Mr. LaPietra's

1084

1 automobile?

2 A. He would be -- he usually had the same

3 car, as I remember, for a period of time, he had

4 the same car. Other times he would be in

5 different cars with different people.

6 Q. And where did Mr. LaPietra sit in the

7 car?

8 A. He would usually be in the passenger's

9 side. Somebody else was usually driving.

10 Q. The windows wouldn't be rolled down,

11 would they?

12 A. Sometimes in the summertime. I mean,

13 the windows would be open on occasion.

14 Q. I want you to use all of the

15 experience you've had in all of these years and

16 all this testimony. According to your

17 testimony -- and LaPietra is the boss of the 26th

18 Street area, is that right?

19 A. He was, I believe he was more than

20 that for some period, just --

21 Q. Even higher up than that?

22 A. He seemed to be, yes, sir.

23 Q. And Angelo LaPietra is driving through

24 the neighborhood sitting in the front seat with

1085

1 the window down on the passenger's side?

2 A. Oh, there were occasions. That was

3 his neighborhood. That was his territory.

4 Q. I see.

5 A. I'm trying to remember, but as I

6 remember, the windows, they may have been up,

7 they may have been down, but I don't think it was

8 a very secure situation when he would go through.

9 Q. Mr. LaPietra was in the passenger side

10 of the car, is that correct?

11 A. He usually had -- I didn't usually see

12 him driving. Somebody else would normally be

13 driving.

14 Q. And he'd be in the passenger side of

15 the car?

16 A. Usually, yes, sir.

17 Q. All right. And that would -- the

18 passenger side of the car was the side that was

19 closest to your line of vision?

20 A. On occasion. It would depend if they

21 came down 31st or 32nd or if they went down

22 Wallace, but if he was on Wallace, he would not

23 be closest to me. The driver would be closest to

24 me. The other people might be there, you know.

1086

1 Q. So if they came down Wallace, for you

2 to identify Mr. LaPietra, you would have had to

3 look across the lanes of traffic through the

4 driver of the car and then see Mr. LaPietra in

5 the passenger side, isn't that correct?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. And were there other people -- I know

8 that you said that you saw the person you

9 identified as Bruno Caruso in the car with

10 Mr. LaPietra. Where was he sitting?

11 A. In the back seat. He'd be in the back

12 seat. Again, I saw them on more than one

13 occasion. So, I mean, on which particular

14 occasion? Usually there would be -- a lot of

15 times, again, I probably saw Angelo maybe a

16 couple dozen or more times over a long period,

17 before he went to the penitentiary. He was gone,

18 I believe, when I left town. But before that, I

19 mean, a lot of times you would see him. It was

20 not an infrequent situation.

21 Q. When, as you testified, you recall

22 seeing the person Bruno Caruso in the automobile

23 with Angelo LaPietra, where was Mr. Caruso

24 sitting?

1087

1 A. He would have been in the back seat,

2 as I remember.

3 Q. On the driver's side of the back seat

4 or the passenger's side of the back seat?

5 A. I really can't be specific. I really

6 don't know. I don't remember.

7 Q. Were there occasions when you saw the

8 automobile with Mr. LaPietra that had three

9 people in the back seat?

10 A. I don't think so. Usually it would be

11 a couple people. Usually it would be a couple

12 people. And quite often it was just him and the

13 driver. Quite often it would be just him and the

14 driver going wherever they went.

15 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Cooley, that you

16 didn't observe this, somebody told you that a

17 person in the car was Angelo LaPietra?

18 A. No, sir. I've never discussed that

19 with anybody else.

20 Q. You didn't know Angelo LaPietra

21 personally, did you?

22 A. I knew who he was. I knew him to see

23 him, but I never spoke to him other than to say

24 hello, other than to say hi.

1088

1 Q. Again, I want to know how did you know

2 it was Angelo LaPietra's automobile?

3 A. Because the people I was with, I'd be

4 there with Dirge, I'd be there with Frank, I'd be

5 there with Larry or somebody else, I mean, these

6 people all knew him.

7 MR. BOSTWICK: Frank who?

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who?

9 MR. BOSTWICK: Frank who?

10 THE WITNESS: Dirge's brother, Frank

11 Imperato.

12 BY MR. CARMELL:

13 Q. And these people would say, and I'm

14 just coining a phrase, there goes Angie in his

15 car or there goes Angelo or Hook's car?

16 A. Well, I mean, they never talked about

17 him with any kind of disrespect, those people.

18 They would wave sometimes, he would wave back

19 sometimes. Sometimes they would just go by and

20 we -- I might make some comments about it. I

21 would make silly comments about the entourage or

22 I wonder about who is in trouble today or things

23 like that, but these people would never joke

24 about that.

1089

1 Q. And the car that you say Mr. LaPietra

2 was in would drive by the Redwood, is that

3 correct?

4 A. Going through the neighborhood, yes,

5 sir.

6 Q. I want to talk about the

7 Italian-American Club. When did you become a

8 member of the club?

9 A. It was probably around 19 -- about

10 1980, somewhere around there, '80, '81.

11 Q. And how long did you remain a member?

12 A. I paid dues one time and never paid a

13 second time. I paid dues one time and I got

14 stuck with some tickets, a lot during that

15 period, every time they had one of their

16 so-called benefits, I was stuck with a whole

17 bunch of tickets and I wound up eating them, I

18 wound up buying all of them, so I was there for,

19 I'd say, for one season, one year, whatever it

20 might be, but I never paid a second time.

21 Q. And the tickets that you purchased,

22 how many -- what was the dollar value of those?

23 What did you have to pay?

24 A. $100, $150. They would just give me a

1090

1 certain amount of tickets and just say -- you

2 know, and they expected you to sell them. You

3 were expected to sell them. I mean, everybody

4 would be selling these things, so there was no

5 way you were going to sell them. I wound up just

6 giving them the money.

7 Q. Where was the Italian-American Social

8 Club located when you were a member?

9 A. The first time when I went, I believe

10 they had actually two places, there was one place

11 a little bit south, a little bit south of where

12 the Redwood was, on one of the north-south

13 streets, but then they also had, the main place

14 was over on 26th Street.

15 Q. Did the main place come in after the

16 little one was closed?

17 A. I remember being at both of those.

18 And, again, I can't specifically say whether they

19 were both open at the same time. But initially I

20 believe I went to a club that was a little bit

21 south of where the Redwood was. And I tried to

22 think of this when I talked to him a couple weeks

23 ago and it just doesn't register what the exact

24 street was. But I remember then going to a place

1091

1 on 26th Street because I remember, again, the

2 first time I walked in there I was wearing a suit

3 and a tie and I came in in the daytime and there

4 was also somebody there at the door that was not

5 very friendly to me, apparently didn't know me or

6 recognize me in a suit and tie and a hat, and was

7 kind of crude until somebody said, oh, that's

8 Bobby, that's Bobby, let him in, and I walked in

9 then.

10 Q. Do you know the year that the July 4th

11 party occurred that you have testified to?

12 A. No, sir, I don't know. I believe

13 there were a couple of them. I know there

14 was -- I know there was one. For some reason,

15 I'm thinking there was a couple. There was a

16 couple of those 4th of July parties. I remember

17 being at one in particular.

18 Q. If I told you that the

19 Italian-American Club had approximately 800

20 members, would that surprise you?

21 A. No.

22 MR. BOSTWICK: This is currently?

23 MR. CARMELL: Had.

24 BY MR. CARMELL:

1092

1 Q. At the time that you were --

2 A. No, that wouldn't surprise me. I had

3 no idea how many people were paying.

4 Q. And on the July 4th party, at least

5 the one that you testified to, it was a very

6 large street party, as you referred to it, a huge

7 street party, isn't it?

8 A. Oh, that's correct. There were a

9 lot -- we all had to sell tickets for that. We

10 all had X amount of tickets to sell. It wasn't a

11 freebee event, and there were, I mean, you're

12 talking about a lot of people.

13 Q. There were families there, women,

14 children, et cetera, weren't there not?

15 A. Yes, sir, there were.

16 Q. And you referred to the club as Angelo

17 LaPietra's club. Do you remember that?

18 A. He was the main boss of the area. It

19 was his territory.

20 Q. Did you know that Angelo LaPietra had

21 founded the Italian American Club?

22 A. That certainly wouldn't surprise me.

23 That would not surprise me at all.

24 Q. And during the time that this huge

1093

1 street party was going on, you went over to say

2 hello to Angelo LaPietra?

3 A. I said hello certainly when I came

4 in.

5 Q. Did you see women and children going

6 over there to say hello to Angelo LaPietra?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. In fact, lots and lots and lots of

9 people went over to say hello to Angelo LaPietra,

10 is that correct?

11 A. Just about everyone that came in, yes,

12 sir.

13 Q. All right. Coming to the end.

14 When you decided to go to the FBI, you

15 had gambling debts of over $200,000, is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes, sir, I did.

18 Q. And the government gave you

19 approximately $72,000 to pay down the gambling

20 debt, is that correct?

21 A. Well, the government insisted on doing

22 that. I didn't have to pay the gambling debts at

23 all. That was their idea. I was told not to pay

24 the people.

1094

1 Q. You felt that you could just keep that

2 gambling debt out there of $200,000?

3 A. No. I had gone -- before I came to

4 the FBI, before I came in, I went to see Johnny

5 DiFronzo who at that time was probably one of the

6 acting bosses in the Chicago area. I went to see

7 him and he took care of it for me. He contacted

8 the people and told them I would pay them when I

9 was ready to pay them.

10 I went to see him again after I came

11 to the FBI and I told him -- I wore a wire when I

12 saw him the next time because they didn't believe

13 that I could go see him to get this thing taken

14 care of, so I went and talked to him on tape

15 where he again indicated to me that I told you

16 not to pay one person in particular. Why do you

17 want to pay him? I didn't have to pay those

18 people if I didn't want to.

19 Q. According to the questions from

20 Mr. Bostwick, you decided to go and cooperate

21 with the government because you wanted to put an

22 end to -- because you thought it was the right

23 thing to do, is that right?

24 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

1095

1 Q. You had once broken away from these

2 organized crime people when you went out to

3 Senator Lemke's office, isn't that correct?

4 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

5 Q. That didn't last very long, did it?

6 A. Oh, it lasted for a long time.

7 Q. About a year, six months to a year if

8 I remember your testimony?

9 A. It lasted for quite a while until Pat

10 Marcy got in touch with me and told me I had to

11 fix the Collela case and I just didn't want to do

12 that, but I did do it.

13 Q. Let me try and fix the time frame.

14 What was the period of time in which you would

15 say you were not involved with organized crime?

16 A. Well, when I say I am not --

17 Q. Other than representing people who

18 might be in a gambling case?

19 A. I still got some -- even though I

20 didn't get Marco's business for a while, I still

21 began -- I still was getting some business from

22 other areas, from other people that there is no

23 question they were involved in organized crime,

24 but these were like personal friends of mine that

1096

1 would send me the business on their own, but

2 there was a period of probably a couple of years.

3 Q. Let me ask you about involved with

4 organized crime. It is something I don't quite

5 understand. You testified that a person who was

6 a bookmaker paid a street tax, is that correct?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Now, the person who was a bookmaker,

9 was that person automatically involved in

10 organized crime just by being a bookmaker?

11 A. No. It depended on his relationship

12 with the people. There were different ways that

13 you paid. Sometimes you just paid a street tax

14 and sometimes you were partners with them. I

15 mean, Marco explained all of this on our

16 recordings.

17 Q. Let's try again. There were

18 bookmakers who in order to operate their own

19 bookmaking operation paid a street tax?

20 A. Yes, there were a series of those,

21 yes, sir.

22 Q. Did you call those persons being

23 involved in organized crime?

24 A. No. I mean, that alone in itself, no,

1097

1 would not be -- in my opinion would not have them

2 involved with organized crime in the way that I

3 used the term.

4 Q. So that merely by being in gambling,

5 the person would not necessarily be involved in

6 organized crime?

7 A. Not unless they are involved in

8 gambling and also involved in juice loans and

9 also involved in the burglaries and the robberies

10 and the rest of it, no, sir. That itself alone

11 would not be a reason for me to consider somebody

12 involved in organized crime.

13 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me interject a comment

14 here which is that he may be testifying as to his

15 understanding. We also have legal definitions

16 which apply to our process, and I am just doing

17 exactly what Sherman did.

18 MR. CARMELL: I don't know why that has to

19 come in.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Whatever he knows or

21 thinks he thinks.

22 MR. BOSTWICK: That's fine. This is his

23 opinion and he is testifying to it.

24 MR. CARMELL: It was put in obviously

1098

1 because he has used the phrase involved. I am

2 just asking him how he is using that phrase.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think the question

4 is legitimate because they are talking about

5 gambling and how the gamblers are involved and

6 who pays the street tax. It moves up the line,

7 becomes part of it.

8 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me clarify. I was not

9 objecting to the line of questioning or the

10 response or anything of the sort. I am just

11 interjecting that there are two different

12 situations going on here. There is his opinion

13 and there is also legal definitions and standard

14 in the process.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: We know there are

16 ultimate definitions that float around here

17 called associates which we are always wrestling

18 with and then all of the witnesses talk about he

19 is involved, he is with them and so forth and it

20 is a very legitimate line of questioning.

21 MR. CARMELL: Having only been partially

22 confused by that, give me a moment.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: I thought my

24 explanation was very clear.

1099

1 MR. CARMELL: Your explanation is clear.

2 Where I am is what is confused.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Sherman, you are right

4 at the point where you have just asked him simply

5 paying the tax doesn't make you a part of OC.

6 MR. CARMELL: I think it was something

7 else. I know what the simply is.

8 And on that high note, I have no

9 further questions.

10 MR. BOSTWICK: I have a short redirect. I

11 don't think we need to break now unless

12 anybody --

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Go right ahead.

14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

15 BY MR. BOSTWICK:

16 Q. Mr. Cooley, in response to

17 Mr. Carmell's questioning, you mentioned an

18 incident where you disassociated with Marco

19 D'Amico as a result of a death threat. Do you

20 recall that testimony?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Do you recall the time period of that

23 disassociation?

24 A. Well, again, it was during the Frank

1100

1 Renella case. They had just killed somebody who

2 had wore a wire against them and Frank Renella

3 was prosecuted for that case along with Donny

4 Scaliese and Nick Boulahanis, so it was -- it

5 happened when they -- when I was on trial with

6 Frank Renella. I am not sure what the exact year

7 was, but that was the exact date.

8 Q. Did you ultimately reestablish contact

9 with Marco D'Amico?

10 A. Well, after about six months to a

11 year, I would see him on occasion at certain

12 places and it wasn't until I came to work for the

13 government that I reestablished my -- then I did

14 go out and reestablish my relationship with him

15 and I was kind of surprised they would deal with

16 me as freely as they did after having not been

17 with them for a period of time especially under

18 the circumstances that I left them.

19 Q. And you were asked also about a -- to

20 clarify some of your understandings about this

21 dice game on the 26th Street area. Do you recall

22 that testimony?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. You testified that there were four or

1101

1 five people that you would see I believe it was

2 Frank Caruso hanging around with during that dice

3 game. Do you recall the names of any of those

4 individuals?

5 A. Well, Richie would be there on

6 occasion, Larry --

7 Q. Richie Catazone?

8 A. Larry would be there every time.

9 Larry made it clear that he ran the game for

10 these people and that he was in charge.

11 Q. Larry Pusiteri told you that?

12 A. Yes, sir. On many occasions, yes,

13 sir.

14 Q. Did you ever see -- well, strike

15 that.

16 Mr. Carmell also asked you a series of

17 questions about Counselor's Row and it is true

18 that there were a lot of legitimate people in

19 that restaurant discussing -- or having

20 legitimate conversations, having nothing to do

21 with organized crime, is that correct?

22 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

23 Q. And lots of those individuals said hi

24 or spoke either at length or briefly with Pat

1102

1 Marcy, is that correct?

2 A. Well, at the table, yes, sir.

3 Q. In fact, hundreds of people, hundreds

4 of those conversations I believe you testified

5 occurred every day?

6 A. I mean, maybe hundreds is

7 exaggerating, but there were a lot. It was a

8 constant -- there were people especially during

9 the lunch hour. I mean, a lot of people would

10 come by and say hi and just reach over or

11 whatever and others that were sitting there. I

12 mean, most every day there was some business

13 going on there at the table.

14 Q. You have used the phrase dirty

15 conversations or dirty discussions. Did you use

16 that phrase at the time?

17 A. I don't understand the question.

18 Q. In other words, dirty conversations to

19 indicate conversations relating to organized

20 crime or fixing cases or the like?

21 A. Anything illegal. If we were going to

22 discuss anything illegal or anything we wouldn't

23 want picked up on tape, anything we wouldn't want

24 to be overheard, we would not talk at the table.

1103

1 Q. Did you clearly understand from

2 discussions with Pat Marcy, John D'Arco, Senior,

3 Judge Costillo --

4 A. Scotillo.

5 Q. -- Scotillo and others that there was

6 a procedure for discussing this illegal business?

7 A. Oh, absolutely. That's just the way

8 it always was.

9 Q. And of those types of conversations,

10 conversations that were conducted in a certain

11 manner where Pat Marcy got up away from the

12 table, went to the hall, et cetera, in a private

13 conversation, you testified that there were only

14 a few of those conversations, either zero, one,

15 two, or three or so during a given day, is that

16 correct?

17 A. That's correct, yes, sir. I mean,

18 some days none, but it was a regular experience.

19 It was not at all unusual.

20 Q. And it was those types of

21 conversations conducted in that type of way that

22 you indicated that you saw Bruno Caruso and Leo

23 Caruso involved with Pat Marcy, is that correct?

24 A. Yes, sir.

1104

1 Q. You testified also in response to

2 Mr. Carmell's questions that you didn't know

3 specifically what Bruno Caruso, for example, did

4 specifically for organized crime, is that

5 correct?

6 A. I still don't. I still don't know to

7 this day.

8 MR. CARMELL: I don't think that was the

9 question. I asked what he did with the union.

10 MR. BOSTWICK: Oh, I am sorry.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think he asked him

12 do you know what he did with the union or if he

13 was with the union and I don't think he knew

14 either.

15 BY THE WITNESS:

16 A. I still don't know what they do with

17 the union.

18 MR. CARMELL: That was his answer then.

19 BY MR. BOSTWICK:

20 Q. Did you have a clear understanding

21 that Bruno Caruso was associated with the 26th

22 Street Crew?

23 A. I was aware of this for a long period

24 of time, yes, sir.

1105

1 Q. Is this understanding based in part on

2 your viewing of Bruno Caruso riding with Angelo

3 LaPietra?

4 A. It was based upon, you know, upon

5 everything I saw, everything I did, the people I

6 talked to.

7 Q. Over a course of years?

8 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

9 MR. BOSTWICK: That's all of the questions

10 that I have.

11 MR. CARMELL: Nothing.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

13 MR. BOSTWICK: If we can take maybe a

14 15-minute break or so and then put on the next

15 witness or do we want to --

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Sure. We will put the

17 next witness on and --

18 MR. CARMELL: Who is our next witness?

19 MR. BOSTWICK: Our next witness is Guy

20 Bills, Charles Francis Bills known as Guy Bills.

21 MR. CARMELL: Do you have -- are there any

22 documents that were part of our exhibits that

23 referred to Guy Bills?

24 MR. BOSTWICK: Yes, and at the break why

1106

1 don't we discuss those.

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Sir, thank you

3 very much, and we are done with you and you are

4 free.

5 (Witness excused.)

6 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)

7 (WHEREUPON, Mr. Joseph E. Griffin

8 entered the arbitration

9 proceedings.)

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, we're back

11 on the record and I see you have brought a new

12 witness in and we'll have him sworn. I'm the

13 Independent Hearing Officer, sir.

14 Okay. Miss Reporter, would you

15 administer the oath.

16 (WHEREUPON, the witness was duly

17 sworn.)

18 CHARLES FRANCIS BILLS,

19 called as a witness herein, having been first

20 duly sworn, was examined and testified as

21 follows:

22 DIRECT EXAMINATION

23 BY MR. BOSTWICK:

24 Q. Good late morning, I guess it is.

1107

1 Sir, could you give us your given name.

2 A. Charles Francis Bills.

3 Q. Were you known by any other names?

4 A. Guy.

5 Q. What is your age?

6 A. 56.

7 Q. Is Guy Bills or Charles Francis Bills

8 the name you currently go by?

9 A. No, it's not.

10 Q. Why is that?

11 A. I was in the Witness Protection

12 Program and they changed it.

13 Q. Have you provided testimony in federal

14 criminal trials?

15 A. Yes, I have.

16 Q. Approximately how many?

17 A. Twice.

18 Q. Who were the defendants in those

19 cases?

20 A. Albert Tocco and Frank Calabrese.

21 Q. So Albert Tocco and Clarence Crockett,

22 were they one trial?

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. Tell us a little bit about that case,

1108

1 the Al Tocco and Clarence Crockett indictment.

2 A. It was about paying, junk yards paying

3 taxes and myself collecting taxes in a stolen car

4 operation.

5 Q. When you say taxes, do you mean street

6 taxes?

7 A. Street taxes, yes, I do.

8 Q. Is this for organized crime in

9 Chicago?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. How about the Calabrese case you

12 referred to, was Mr. Calabrese -- well, in fact,

13 weren't there two Calabreses?

14 A. Yes, there was.

15 Q. Frank, Sr. and a Jr.?

16 A. Yes, but the only one I knew was

17 Frank, Sr.

18 Q. I see. Were there other defendants in

19 that trial as well?

20 A. There were numerous defendants.

21 Q. What was the general subject matter of

22 that trial?

23 A. About juice loans.

24 Q. Okay. Juice loans relating to

1109

1 organized crime?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Here in the City of Chicago?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Have you also provided information

6 regarding organized crime in the City of Chicago

7 to the FBI?

8 A. Yes, I have.

9 Q. Have you agreed in the past to meet

10 with individuals associated with organized crime

11 to further FBI investigations?

12 A. Yes, I have.

13 Q. Have some of these meetings been tape

14 recorded?

15 A. Yes, they were.

16 Q. Mr. Bills, have you heard of the term

17 Chicago Outfit?

18 A. Yes, I have.

19 Q. How would you describe that term?

20 A. They run anything that's illegal in

21 Chicago.

22 Q. They meaning the Chicago Outfit?

23 A. The Chicago Outfit.

24 Q. What about the term crew or street

1110

1 crew?

2 A. There's different crews throughout the

3 city.

4 Q. What is the function of crews or

5 street crews?

6 A. They enforce anything that's illegal,

7 that anybody is in business, that they collect

8 the money or they put them out of business.

9 Q. Were you associated during a period of

10 time with either the Chicago Outfit or one of

11 these street crews?

12 A. Yes, I was.

13 Q. During what period of time? You can

14 give me an approximation.

15 A. '77 to the early '80s.

16 Q. And what crew was that?

17 A. With Angelo LaPietra and Albert Tocco.

18 Q. Angelo LaPietra, is that individual --

19 what crew is he a part of?

20 A. 26th Street Crew. He's the boss.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We are talking

22 about the same -- I know we're talking about the

23 same individual, even though they might have

24 different pronunciations. I always knew of him

1111

1 as Angelo LaPietra. How about you, Mr. Bills?

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. I just pronounce

3 it wrong.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

5 BY MR. BOSTWICK:

6 Q. And Al Tocco that you mentioned -- I'm

7 sorry. Did you mention Al Tocco?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. What crew was he the head of?

10 A. Chicago Heights. He was the under

11 boss.

12 Q. Whose the boss of that crew?

13 A. Al Pilotto.

14 Q. Were you involved in juice loans in

15 any way?

16 A. Yes, I was.

17 Q. Could you define the term juice

18 loans? What does that mean?

19 A. If you can't get a loan anywhere, then

20 you would go to a juice loan operator, who would

21 loan you $1,000 and you would pay back 10 percent

22 a week.

23 Q. Did the amounts that you paid back per

24 week vary at times?

1112

1 A. No, they don't. You're supposed to

2 pay 10 percent a week.

3 Q. What specifically did you do with

4 respect to juice loans?

5 A. I loaned the money on the street.

6 Q. For what organization?

7 A. Angelo LaPietra.

8 Q. Over what period of time?

9 A. For about a year and a half, I think.

10 I'm not sure on the time.

11 Q. Is this that same time period, late

12 '70s, early '80s?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you ever have any involvement in

15 juice loans with the other crew that you

16 mentioned, Al Tocco or Al Pilotto's crew?

17 A. No, sir, I didn't.

18 Q. Were you ever involved in the

19 collection or payment of street tax for the

20 Outfit?

21 A. Yes, I was.

22 Q. Okay. Can you define for us briefly

23 what you understand the term street tax to mean?

24 A. Anybody who is doing anything illegal

1113

1 pays a tax to the Chicago Outfit.

2 Q. And what is the purpose of that tax?

3 A. So you don't get hurt or killed.

4 Q. Did you ever collect street tax?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. For who?

7 A. For Angelo LaPietra's crew and Albert

8 Tocco's crew.

9 Q. Is this during that same time period,

10 late '70s and early '80s?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Mr. -- well, who did you give that

13 money to?

14 A. Ronald Jarrett or Albert Tocco.

15 Q. Tell us about how a collection of

16 street tax works. What types of people did you

17 collect street tax from?

18 A. Car thieves, chop shop operators, and

19 gamblers.

20 Q. And you would collect, what, a set

21 amount during a set period of time?

22 A. Once a month.

23 Q. Approximately how much would you

24 collect? Did it depend on the business that they

1114

1 were doing, the criminal business?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Who set that amount?

4 A. Frank Calabrese.

5 Q. For the one crew?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. And which crew was that?

8 A. Angelo LaPietra's crew.

9 Q. When you collected it, who did you

10 then give it to?

11 A. Ronald Jarrett.

12 Q. Who is Ronald Jarrett?

13 A. He works under Frankie Calabrese for

14 Angelo LaPietra.

15 Q. And that's during the same period of

16 time, the '70s and early '80s, late '70s and

17 early '80s?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Mr. Bills, you mentioned chop shop

20 operations. Were you ever involved in chop shop

21 operations?

22 A. Yes, sir, I was.

23 Q. Could you tell us what a chop shop

24 operation is?

1115

1 A. That's where you chop a car up for the

2 parts and resell it.

3 Q. What role did you play in chop shop

4 operations?

5 A. I had my own chop shop. I stold cars

6 for the chop shop and I had a junk yard at one

7 time.

8 Q. Approximately what time periods are

9 these events taking place?

10 A. In that same amount of time that I

11 gave you already.

12 Q. Did you pay a street tax to operate a

13 chop shop?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. And who did you pay that street tax

16 to?

17 A. Ronald Jarrett and Frank Calabrese.

18 Q. Over what period of time did you do

19 that?

20 A. For about a year.

21 Q. Is that late '70s, early '80s?

22 A. That would be in the late '70s.

23 Q. Mr. Bills, have you ever been

24 convicted of a federal crime?

1116

1 A. Yes, I have.

2 Q. Were you convicted of interstate

3 shipment of stolen goods in the early '70s?

4 A. Yes, I was.

5 Q. Could you tell us briefly what that

6 related to?

7 A. From a trailer, we stold a trailer and

8 we sold the stuff.

9 Q. What type of stuff?

10 A. Radios and clothing.

11 Q. Did you commit burglaries over time?

12 A. Yes, I have.

13 Q. A number of them?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. With a number of different people?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Where was this

18 conviction for stolen goods?

19 THE WITNESS: Interstate theft.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Where was it?

21 THE WITNESS: Chicago. I went to trial in

22 the federal building.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who prosecuted you?

24 THE WITNESS: Geeze, I can't remember the

1117

1 guy's --

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: I wasn't the

3 prosecutor on that case, was I?

4 THE WITNESS: No, you were not.

5 MR. CARMELL: Do you know what year it was?

6 BY MR. BOSTWICK:

7 Q. Do you know the approximate year? He

8 said sometime in the early '70s, I believe.

9 A. '71, '72 maybe. The guy later went

10 on -- the guy who prosecuted me, later went on, I

11 believe, that union official that got killed.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: That would be Matt

13 Lyden prosecuted you?

14 THE WITNESS: No, Matt Lyden wasn't on the

15 case. I know who Matt Lyden is. This guy was

16 stocky.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: And prosecuted the

18 union official later?

19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, but away from here. The

20 union official they killed wasn't from here.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: I prosecuted a lot of

22 ITSB cases during that time, the early '70s, and

23 I thought I or one of my men might have done

24 that, but I don't think so.

1118

1 THE WITNESS: I don't think so.

2 BY MR. BOSTWICK:

3 Q. Were you also convicted of stolen --

4 taking stolen cars over state lines?

5 A. Yes, I was.

6 Q. Approximately when was that?

7 A. The indictment was after I was in

8 jail.

9 Q. On that first matter?

10 A. Right.

11 Q. I see. So what happened to that case?

12 A. I was given, Judge Marovich give me, I

13 believe, four years to run concurrent with the

15 Q. So you didn't go to trial on that

16 matter?

17 A. I pleaded guilty.

18 Q. And the last matter, were you

19 convicted of a RICO conviction in the mid to late

20 '80s?

21 A. Yes, I pled guilty on that.

22 Q. And what did that relate to, what type

23 of activity?

24 A. Selling stolen parts across the state

1119

1 line.

2 Q. Did it also relate to chop shop

3 activity?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Where did you grow up, Mr. Bills?

6 A. On the -- I lived on the south side

7 for a while, around 74th and Emerald, and I lived

8 in Bridgeport for about five or six years.

9 Q. Is this in the 26th Street area of

10 Chicago?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. Who is your father?

13 A. Charles "Duckie" Bills. That was his

14 nickname, Duckie.

15 Q. Was your father involved in any

16 criminal activity?

17 A. Bookmaker.

18 Q. How do you know that?

19 A. I worked in his office.

20 Q. During what period of time -- when you

21 say his office, I take it you mean -- let me

22 strike that first question and say when you

23 worked in his office, I take it you mean his

24 bookmaking office?

1120

1 A. Yes, which would be called the wire

2 room.

3 Q. During what period of time did you

4 work in his bookmaking operation?

5 A. In the early '60s.

6 Q. Was this bookmaking involved with the

7 26th Street Crew in any way?

8 A. Yes, it was.

9 Q. What types of bets did your father

10 take?

11 A. He took bets on the horses and later

12 football.

13 Q. Did your father know people in

14 leadership positions of the Outfit?

15 A. Yes, he did.

16 Q. In the 26th Street Crew?

17 A. Yes, he did.

18 Q. Who were some of his closest

19 associates in those groups?

20 MR. CARMELL: I'm going to object to it. It

21 requires him to speculate who his father believed

22 were members.

23 MR. BOSTWICK: Well, let me ask you on --

24 MR. CARMELL: That's the way the question is

1121

1 written.

2 BY MR. BOSTWICK:

3 Q. Did you have discussions with your

4 father about people in the Outfit?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Did you have discussions with your

7 father about people in the 26th Street crew?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Did you meet some of these people?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Did you have discussions with them

12 specifically about their involvement?

13 A. Later on, I did.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Why don't you

15 establish who he met and then we'll figure out

16 who they are.

17 BY MR. BOSTWICK:

18 Q. Did you meet an individual named Gus

19 Alex?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. And who is Gus Alex?

22 A. He was the boss of the Chicago Loop.

23 Q. How did you meet Mr. Alex?

24 A. Through my father.

1122

1 Q. Did you know a Sam Alex?

2 A. That was his brother.

3 Q. What position, if any, did Mr. Sam

4 Alex hold in the Chicago Outfit?

5 A. From what I heard, he was a killer and

6 a big boss.

7 Q. Who did you hear that from?

8 A. From my father and other people.

9 Q. Did he have any relationship or family

10 ties to your father?

11 A. He was married to my aunt.

12 Q. This is Sam Alex?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. So Sam Alex and Gus Alex were

15 relatives, in effect, of yours?

16 A. Sam Alex was. I don't think Gus was

17 because he married my aunt. I don't know if that

18 would be a relation or not.

19 Q. I guess it depends on how far one

20 extends the family tree.

21 Did you discuss these individuals, Gus

22 Alex and Sam Alex, and their position in the

23 Outfit with your father?

24 A. Yes, I did.

1123

1 Q. During what period of time?

2 A. Since I was about 13.

3 Q. Did they ever come to your home?

4 A. Yes, they have.

5 Q. Did you see them on other occasions?

6 A. Yes, sir, I have.

7 Q. In and around the neighborhood?

8 A. At wakes, weddings.

9 Q. Did you see people in the 26th Street

10 area interact with these people?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. How were they treated by -- Sam Alex

13 and Gus Alex, how were they treated in the 26th

14 Street area?

15 A. Very respectfully.

16 Q. Were you and your father treated any

17 differently because of a family relationship with

18 Gus and Sam Alex?

19 A. We were treated a little better than

20 the average person, yeah.

21 Q. Let me show you a couple of photos

22 here, and ask you to look. This binder,

23 Mr. Bills, is marked as Exhibit 6, and then there

24 are tabs in the exhibits. I'm going to ask you

1124

1 to look at 6-B and 6-D, if you would, please.

2 First of all, 6B, the person behind

3 the tab?

4 MR. CARMELL: Is that B as in boy?

5 MR. BOSTWICK: B as in boy, yeah.

6 BY MR. BOSTWICK:

7 Q. You go behind Tab B. Who is that

8 individual?

9 A. Gus Alex.

10 Q. Go behind Tab D. Could you tell me

11 who that individual is?

12 A. Frank "Skid" Caruso.

13 Q. How do you know who Frank "Skids"

14 Caruso is?

15 A. I know him since I was a young kid.

16 Q. Did he have any relationship with your

17 father?

18 A. Yes, he did.

19 Q. What was the nature of that

20 relationship?

21 A. They were friends.

22 Q. Was -- did Frank Skids Caruso have any

23 involvement in your father's bookmaking

24 operation?

1125

1 A. Yes, he did.

2 Q. And what was the nature of that

3 involvement?

4 A. They had to call all of the bets in

5 Skid Caruso's office.

6 Q. Who did; your father?

7 A. Yes, they did.

8 Q. Why was that?

9 A. Because they were 50/50 partners.

10 Q. Can you describe in a little more

11 detail how that partnership between Frank Skids

12 Caruso and your father worked with respect to the

13 bookmaking and in the Chicago Chinatown area?

14 A. They would call in all of the bets

15 that they had during the day to Skids' office and

16 winnings or losing would be 50 percent either

17 way.

18 Q. Do you remember an individual named

19 Tony Bova?

20 A. Yes. He was working in Skids' office.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: How do you spell that

22 name?

23 BY MR. BOSTWICK:

24 Q. Do you know?

1126

1 A. B-o-v-a, I believe.

2 Q. What role did Mr. Bova play in Frank

3 Skids Caruso's office?

4 A. He ran the sports office for Skid.

5 Q. When you say office, again, you are

6 referring to the illegal bookmaking operation?

7 A. Right. Anybody who was booking in

8 that neighborhood would have to call their bets

9 into that office or they couldn't book.

10 Q. What would happen if they didn't?

11 What was your understanding?

12 A. They would get hurt or they would pay

13 the money.

14 Q. Did you see Frank Skids Caruso with

15 your father on occasion?

16 A. Yes, I have.

17 Q. A number of occasions?

18 A. A lot of times.

19 Q. Have you talked with -- to your father

20 about Frank Skids Caruso?

21 A. Yes, I have.

22 Q. With other individuals in the

23 neighborhood?

24 A. With other individuals in the

1127

1 neighborhood, no. He talked about Skid, but I

2 have heard it from other people.

3 Q. I am sorry. Have you talked about

4 Frank Skids Caruso with other people in the

5 neighborhood as well?

6 A. Yes, I have.

7 Q. What did you understand Frank Skids

8 Caruso's position in the 26th Street Crew to be?

9 A. He was a boss.

10 Q. And what period of time was this?

11 A. Until he died.

12 Q. Do you know approximately when that

13 was?

14 A. No, I don't know.

15 Q. But does this period cover the '60s

16 and '70s or at least a portion of those periods?

17 A. Yes, it does.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Look at 6A, picture

19 6A.

20 MR. BOSTWICK: 6A?

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes. The very

22 beginning.

23 Do you see Gus Alex in there?

24 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.

1128

1 BY MR. BOSTWICK:

2 Q. Let me show you -- have you take a

3 look at Exhibit 6M, behind the Tab 6M. Do you

4 recognize that individual?

5 A. Angelo LaPietra.

6 Q. Were you aware from discussions with

7 your father and others what his position in the

8 Outfit was?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. And what position was that?

11 A. He was a boss. He became boss of the

12 whole 26th Street area to 31st Street.

13 Q. Approximately what time period?

14 A. Whenever he moved into the

15 neighborhood and built his house. I don't know

16 what time frame that is.

17 Q. Was there a period of time when

18 Mr. LaPietra was forced to leave the 26th Street

19 area?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Approximately when was that?

22 A. I can't -- when my father got shot.

23 Q. Can you tell us did Mr. LaPietra's

24 having to leave the neighborhood have something

1129

1 to do with your father's being shot?

2 A. Yes, it did.

3 Q. Can you tell us about what happened?

4 A. My father was shot through the door of

5 the house.

6 Q. How old were you?

7 A. Young. I am trying to think.

8 Q. Early teenage years or younger?

9 A. Maybe just a teenager.

10 Q. Did you witness the shooting?

11 A. No, I didn't.

12 Q. Did you go to the hospital with your

13 family after the shooting?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. How soon following the shooting?

16 A. A couple of days, I believe. I am not

17 sure on the time frame.

18 Q. Did you see your father in the

19 hospital?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Did -- was anybody else present?

22 A. There was a lot of guys standing

23 around.

24 Q. Who was there?

1130

1 A. Jimmy Catura, my uncle.

2 Q. That would be Sam Alex?

3 A. No, no. My other uncle, Gurgone,

4 G-u-r-g-o-n-e. Sam I believe is his first name.

5 He had a nickname.

6 Q. Was -- do you recall whether Sam or

7 Gus Alex were in the room?

8 A. Gus Alex came there.

9 Q. Could you describe what was said as

10 you recall it?

11 A. There was another gentleman there who

12 I don't know, I can't remember his name, and one

13 of my uncles and they were wanting revenge for

14 what happened to my father, and Gus Alex says,

15 don't worry about it. I'll take care of

16 everything. Everybody better hope this Irishman

17 lives.

18 Q. Did you become aware through

19 subsequent -- well, did you become aware that

20 Mr. LaPietra left the neighborhood after that

21 period of time?

22 A. Yes. Years later.

23 Q. Years later he left?

24 A. I found out years afterwards.

1131

1 Q. How did you find that out?

2 A. Oh, maybe about 10 or 15 people

3 besides my father told me. Jimmy Catura told me.

4 Q. Did you father also have discussions

5 about that incident with you?<