UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED BROTHERHOOD
OF CARPENTERS AND JOINERS OF AMERICA, et. al.,

INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATOR DEPOSITION

INTERVIEW OF MIKE GUERIN New York, New York Wednesday, June 8, 2005

Reported by:

Meredith Stoeckel JOB NO. 4115

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MR. MACK: I am going to go through all your rights and remedies and any questions that occur to you you feel free to raise. And so as I'm sure you know I am the independent investigator for whatever time remains appointed by the Judge -- Judge Haight. And I am an agent of the court and I function under an order and stipulation which is a public document.

And I know from the past Mr. Lombardi has a copy of and you may have read it or not. If you want a copy you as any carpenter can have it. And in essence it imposes certain obligations upon me and also limits my authority. And just to summarize I am in power to gather facts and write reports but I have no disciplinary authority of any kind. I can make recommendations but in essence the Judge is my boss and he determines what I do and what authority I have. And as I know you know from our past discussions the Judge has agreed with the district council's position that my

service as independent investigator terminates.

However, the Judge issued an order which basically said I should continue in my job until he appoints a successor which at least as I know as of yesterday, because I was with the Judge yesterday, basically has not happened as yet. And knowing the district council as I do they are doing their very best to get me replaced but they have not been successful so far. And I leave that to the parties the government and the district council to resolve that and when that happens I will no longer have that title.

However, I still have a number of duties as to assist my successor and in doing so whatever happens I can't predict I don't know who that will be. I don't know what their position will be. But the reason I say that is that my authority continues and I'm not bashful at all about going back to the Judge should a question arise as to what I

should be doing or not. And that doesn't happen infrequently and he is not at all bashful about telling me what he expects me to do. So I believe I am acting consistently with what he expects me to do today.

And as such what I have done is when a particular individual has come up as a subject of the hotline calls I frequently decide and I have deposed or questioned many individuals in your position as shop steward as to which complaints or issues have been filed.

Now, let me be the first to state that virtually all of the complaints that mention you are anonymous. And in my viewpoint and I certainly know the district council's perspective on anonymous complaints but that is an issue for the court and I happen to believe in hotlines.

And there are people who you know who you would never think would call the hotline who call the hotline whom I know by name who asked to be anonymous for

whatever reasons of their own. And I don't probe that, that's their choice whether they are anonymous or not.

So then I conduct my own evaluation to determine whether or not I think it's important for me to talk to that particular individual because I think I could learn something that could be of value in my examination. And that's why you are here today, that's what it boils down to.

I know it may not be the most pleasant place to be after a hard days work. I will try to be efficient and go about my duties in a way. And I will be the first to say that what is not at issue here is whether you are a good shop steward or a good union person or you do your job well, and whether you are an honorable human being and whether you take your union responsibilities. Those are not issues that I am probing into. I assume all of those things and I know from past experience and interaction with your peers and friends and maybe enemies

that you are an excellent shop steward. So I don't want you to think that the reason you are here is because I think you lack skills or knowledge as a shop steward.

What is at issue is how certain things that may have occurred on a job or certain methodologies which resulted in you being assigned to particular jobs at particular times. And you are among about 30 individuals, I think is the last number, around 30 people who are shop stewards who have been shop stewards or have shop steward skills who have come in to describe and explain what has happened, how certain things happen, all right.

I would also say that I write reports but whether or not anybody ever does anything about them is certainly a question in my mind, all right. And so I can't predict.

And I think the most important thing I will say to you tonight is that you will be under oath in a few moments

is listen to the question and answer it truthfully and completely. And the only real way that you and I can have an antagonistic position is if you lie to me. And some people have questioned, you know, why I refer -- I referred a couple of shop stewards for criminal prosecution, I'm referring other people for obstruction of justice from time to time, I actually have another criminal referral under way.

My view is for the most part whatever things happen are for the others to resolve and if it can be resolved fairly to the carpenter's union by the payment of money meaning if back benefits are to be paid and cash situations and what have you I don't look to put people in jail. I have had that job in my day and, you know, my own feeling is virtually any dispute as to wage and proper benefit and what have you should be able to be resolved by financial sanction or some other sanction not by sending someone to jail.

Where I differ on that is if somebody comes in and I ask him a question and they lie to me under oath and mislead me. And the people I have referred in general have been people who have come in, heard what I am saying now, seen a video tape or something, or know what the evidence is and then choose to intentionally deceive me or lie to me. And those people I do make a criminal reference on. But again I am not a prosecutor, I have been a prosecutor, I am not a defense lawyer, you have a fine defense lawyer at your side. So basically I'm a fact gatherer.

So the best advice anybody could give you including me is when you are under oath as you will be in a few moments listen to the question tell me the truth. My own view is that there are many things that have happened and happened in the past, may have been different situations that have occurred.

I have written a very strong report about the request system but the

district council has taken the view that that was a legitimate change and I certainly am not going to predict the Judge as to whether he is going to agree with that or not or as to whether he will ever decide. So I just want to reiterate the importance of telling me the way it is and direct. I have had shop stewards, I think I have even had shop stewards represented by Mr. Lombardi, who have simply said yes, I was told to do this or I did that or that's what everybody did at the time and it may not have been right. My feeling is it's far better to be truthful than give me a story that is not accurate.

I will tell you in the two years plus I am not a person of coincidences and I have learned a lot. There's a lot more I have to learn but in a sum it's best just to be direct and say this is what I did, this is what happened and that's it. You will be far better off than trying to tell me that something happened that I know didn't happen or

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couldn't have happened or is unlikely to happen. So is that reasonably clear? THE WITNESS: Yes.

MR. MACK: Now, because I am an agent of the court I would also tell you that even if you don't lie to me but you send me down something which you know is untrue or unlikely or in essence mislead me or deceive me you are in a sense misleading or deceiving Judge Haight whose clerk or himself will read this transcript. So basically because I am an agent of the court, as long as I am, if you try to deceive me that can be considered an obstruction of justice which basically means that, hey, I knew I was speaking to the Judge through his agent Walter Mack and rather than telling him straight what really happened here I made up some BS story to overcome what it is. And if the Judge agrees or a prosecutor agrees it is also a federal crime and can result in conviction and incarceration.

But the simple lesson is this is

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not a Grand Jury, you're not being investigated for criminal violations. You are here because there had been questions raised about certain of your assignments and I'm trying to figure out what were the methods and what is actually happening out there that affects the job referral rules. And is it the way it should be and should it be different or should it stay the same. Is the way it's functioning the way it should stay.

I am going to report the facts as I find them but others are going to decide and the district council who is ably represented here today will have their position before the Judge and the government who is represented here as well may have their position. And believe me I will never predict what Judge Haight will do or say. So in the simplest form it's important to listen, answer truthfully and get this evening over with and everybody will move on. And I will be long gone before anybody

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decides what is to happen.

Now, there are a number of things that I need to talk to you about which every witness has. And by the way there's nothing I am saying to you that I haven't said to every witness who has been here. You are not being singled out for a harsher or starker or different -­the concepts are all the same for everybody. And I go through this long spiel because I know the Judge wants me to ensure that every carpenter and every witness understands the stakes and the importance of being truthful and direct.

Should I ask a question tonight in which you feel could personally incriminate you you have the right as any witness in court would have to take the fifth amendment. And what that means basically is, hey, it's a possibility here that this could incriminate me personally. I'm not going to ask you a question like this but if I say have you ever something like -- have you ever smoked marijuana on the job and I'm

picking this solely out of the air -- I'm not going to ask you a question anything like that -- but should I ask a question and you say gee whiz, I know smoking marijuana is a crime. The Supreme Court just decided this week that even under states that permit it the Feds can prosecute it you have a right to say I respectfully refuse to answer that question because it might incriminate me. Every witness gets this warning.

My suggestion is Mr. Lombardi is certainly a well-informed individual. If I ask a question that you think could involve that you should say I would like to talk to Mr. Lombardi and go outside the room and discuss it with him and decide whether it's worthwhile.

Mr. Lombardi has had clients who assert the fifth and the district council has yet to develop a policy which in my view deals with that subject in a clear fashion so I can't predict what the district council will do. They certainly haven't done what I thought they should

do but that's for them to deal with.

But the point remains in this setting tonight you have the right to assert the fifth to any question which you believe you should and that's why you have a lawyer with you and I'm glad you have a lawyer with you. Mr. Lombardi I am sure is excellent and has proven his excellence in deciding whether that's a prudent thing for you to do or not to do. And I would encourage you to listen to his advice and decide whether you wish to assert it.

From my perspective I don't think I am going to ask any question which you will feel that need but it's not what I think it's what you think that counts. Do you understand what I have just said?

MR. MACK: Finally, Mr. Lombardi at least I believe as many of his peers and etcetera who have appeared for carpenters from time to time may in fact have a portion or a significant portion of his fees paid by the district council.

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I can tell that that is not an unusual subject, right?

THE WITNESS: No way I could afford a lawyer.

MR. MACK: So let me tell you -­let me try to explain to you the significance of that.

MR. LOMBARDI: I will state for the record exactly what it is. The district council pays my fee for representing -‑

MR. MACK: Your entire fee?

MR. LOMBARDI: For representing Mr. Guerin or anybody else for this deposition.

MR. MACK: So that having been said let me tell you why I as an agent of the court need to talk to you about this subject which I do in every case.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

MR. MACK: His job here today even though his fee is paid by the district council is to represent you Michael Guerin and you alone. And basically some of my questions could in fact expose the

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district council to criticism or at least question. So the way the law looks at it Mr. Lombardi sits at your side with his fee paid by some other party who may have an interest that you don't talk about certain subjects which could be critical of the organization that's paying him.

In other words if -- and I will give a hypothetical -- if some representative of the district council said to you, hey Mike, when you come and talk to that bozo Mack one way or the other basically don't tell him this. Or if you need to blame somebody blame this person but don't blame that person.

Now, if somebody was stupid enough to say that, well, that's a crime, that's a federal crime talking to a witness telling him what to say knowing it's not the truth -- that's one issue. But the issue I am talking to you about today is no matter what the district council tells you to do or not to do the way the law looks at it is it's Michael Guerin whose got the obligation to tell the truth.

And Mr. Lombardi sits at your side professionally and ethically obliged to say to you you have to tell the truth even if it hurts the people who are paying my fee. And if he doesn't do that he has breached his professional obligation and himself could run into difficulties not only from the bar associations but also in practice. Because he knows, and I'm not in any way thinking he would do this, but there have been attorneys that I have prosecuted who have done this in cases where their fees are paid by one person and they basically tell the other person that they are sitting beside in the courtroom do this do that. And even though they know it's not the truth or even though they know it's not what should happen those people often or unoften occasionally get prosecuted and the often get disbarred for doing that.

Now, I have great respect for Mr. Lombardi and so I have not moved to disqualify any lawyer who has sat and

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been paid by the district council. I don't intend to now or even think about it because you have the right as the witness to select any attorney you wish to represent you. But I'm telling you that I need to ask Mr. Lombardi and he understands this and that he feels he has no problem in representing you. And then I'm going to say to you are you prepared knowing of this potential conflict to recognize that your obligation whether it helps the district council or hurts the district council is to tell the truth to me and through me to the Judge.

So let me ask Mr. Lombardi having heard that before but I just want to make certain that you have thought about it and you feel that you can proceed given that fee arrangement and represent Mr. Guerin without conflict?

MR. LOMBARDI: Yes, I can and that's the fee arrangement that has been in place for some time which I think the --

MR. MACK: I know that but I raise

this conflict warning every time -

­MR. LOMBARDI: First time you thought to ask me so thank you.

MR. MACK: No, I usually ask or you usually say but if I haven't maybe I should revisit all the --

MR. LOMBARDI: No, I am unaware of any apparent or potential conflict of interest that would prevent me from representing Mr. Guerin in this deposition.

MR. MACK: And obviously should something happen during today that changes that you should tell me so we can get other counsel for Mr. Guerin if that's necessary.

Mr. Guerin, let me just tell you why this could be of importance to you. Generally the courts feel once you are informed of a potential conflict that you have the ability to choose and decide to proceed. And my guess is that you will tell me in a few moments that you're glad and privileged to have Mr. Lombardi at your side and that's fine and I think you

are. I mean Mr. Lombardi is certainly capable and competent and will do a good job for you.

But what you should understand is if some day down the road you give me an answer tonight which is untruthful and somebody figures it out and that untruth basically protects the district council, you say something that should have been said in truth that would have been critical but you don't say it for some reason, all right -- if you went in and said gee, it's unfair for me to be charged because I had the district council lawyer sitting at my side what do you expect me, how do you expect me to tell the truth about the district council when I have the district council paying the fees of the handsome gentleman sitting to your right.

If you made that argument as a defense, and I am talking about Mr. Garcia, the point is that defense would not be availing to you because they go back to this very few moments here. They

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will say listen Mr. Guerin Mack did his very best to point out to you that just because Mr. Lombardi's fees were being paid by the district council you still have to tell the truth whether it helps or hurts the district council, all right.

And I have dealt with that in one of my earlier lives and I realize courts will hold you, you would not have that defense. You don't have that defense today, you wouldn't have it in the future. But I don't, you know, my feeling is this -- this is not a difficult concept, you tell the truth. If it hurts the district council Mr. Lombardi is not going to try to persuade you not to say it. If he did he would be breaching his obligation. And if you did it and didn't tell the truth you would still be chargeable for perjury or obstruction.

So let me ask you the question. Are you prepared to proceed with Mr. Lombardi today?

THE WITNESS: Yes, I am.

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MR. MACK: Okay, fine. I think that just about does it. Just let me make sure if there is anything else. Obviously any question that you don't understand just say I don't know what you're asking me, basically rephrase it again or something like that.

My job and the Judge would be very harsh on me if I try to trick you or deceive you or do something which he thought is unfair. He is a very fair man and I try to emulate his direction to me to ask simple questions and get the answers and move on. But if anything isn't clear then you just say I don't understand it.

Any time you want to leave and discuss any question with Mr. Lombardi all you have to do is ask and you will be excused and given whatever time. We take breaks especially if the room is going to heat up here every 45 minutes, 50 minutes depending on how our reporter is holding up on the situation. She seems to be doing fine so far. She is the hardest

working person in here and basically we try to give her time to recover from having to deal with us. Any time you need to take a break or need some more water we will do that.

I will try to proceed with expedition but it is a detailed presentation going over some period of time. I have a series of questions so we will be here for a little while. We will have probably a least two or three sessions. When I say sessions I mean breaks and then we continue. So I am going to try to be efficient and get you out of here. I know you had a hard day and probably worked harder than anyone here in the room and I will try to respect that and make use of your time.

Mr. Lombardi is your counsel. He will have an opportunity to say object, raise questions, and what have you and I'm going to give him in a few minutes an opportunity to say anything he wishes to say. Mr. Garcia is here. He is the handsome gentleman I was discussing

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remind me that I forgot something to ask and he may ask a question from time to time. And he is the individual who basically oversees our investigation,. gathers facts, and talks to a lot of people from time to time. People that may surprise you as to who calls and who doesn't call is what it boils down to. And so he is here and that's the situation.

I will be asking most of the questions. And I will ask you just so you know about it some time before we end tonight other than being upset that you had to be brought in here and asked these questions which I know about and I understand, believe me I do, what I think is appropriate and I try to do it professionally and I don't take remarks personally one or the other. A lot of people don't enjoy coming in to speak to me and I can understand why not but that's neither here nor there.

I am going to ask you because I do and I have said that I respect you as a

I ask you before we leave tonight to seize the moment which I am giving you to speak directly through me to the Judge about what needs to be done to make life better for union carpenters today in the city. So that question will come and it will come near the end and I urge you to speak your mind and speak what you think needs to be done perhaps to improve things.

And I'm actually going to ask you a question right up front about the request system and see where you come out on that because it's a question I ask every shop steward and that comes pretty early on is what it boils down to.

I think I have been through everything that the Judge requires me to tell you about what's happening tonight and what's going on.

First question, do you have any questions for me? Anything you would like to say or ask before I go around the room here?

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MR. MACK: Anything you would like to add or subtract or state here before we start tonight?

MR. LOMBARDI: No.

MR. MACK: Mr. Garcia?

MR. GARCIA: No, Mr. Mack.

MR. MACK: Ms. Wong?

MS. WONG: No thank you.

MR. MACK? Mr. Sobocienski?

MR. SOBOCIENSKI: No.

MR. MACK: Great. What I ask is that we put the witness under oath.

MIKE G U E R I N, called as a witness, having been duly sworn by a Notary Public, was examined and testified as follows:

EXAMINATION BY

MR. MACK:

Q. Please state your name for the record.

A. Mike Guerin.

Q. Mr. Guerin, forgive me if I have called you and not pronounced your name correctly. I will try to do better in the future. One of the things -- I will go through the routine here and just sort of tell you what we will be doing.

Which is I have collected as I do for every person

in your position a number of exhibits. And I don't know whether Mr. Lombardi has secured that information for you beforehand but I'm going to give you now a number of exhibits which basically are a roadmap to what will happen tonight is what it boils down to and that includes your benefit fund remittances.

In other words when a contractor pays into the benefit funds for you there's a record of every payment that comes in. I'm also going to be giving you your job referral history which goes through this computer printout. It goes through every interaction you've had with the district council job referral list. There are other exhibits that will come up from time to time that I have questions about.

I did not pick you at random. I don't want you to think we sit here and throw darts on the wall and let's bring in Mr. Guerin. You have been the subject of a number of complaints basically dealing -- and the general statement is -- how does Mike Guerin get all these great jobs and we are sitting out there without any. That is the gist of what they are. And I have had, you

know, virtually that's true of 80 to 90 percent of the shop stewards I bring in.

And virtually every one of them as you know I think indicated you know certain techniques they had or certain things that happened or whatever helped and what have you. What we do is go through and take a look at things that occur. You know, job skills being added, jobs being deleted, hold calls going on, going off, immediate dispatches, all kinds of little indicia.

Now, some shop stewards say that's just coincidence Mr. Mack. I reject the coincidence. I have great respect for the intelligence of carpenters and their advisers in terms of how to deal with the job referral list is what it boils down to. So I go back and I look and one of the things that frequently or not so frequently anymore but some carpenters say just because I received benefits on a particular day doesn't mean that the employer doesn't report him late or report him for a time different than is on the benefit record.

I will tell you then any situation where you think you have a legitimate complaint

that you weren't working at the time I will subpoena the company for their own employment records and I'm not afraid to do that. What I would ask you is that in your heart of hearts if you know you were working at the time you save everybody a lot of trouble by my not doing so. And in the one situation when that was done, you know, if I was really a tough son of a gun I would have said to the lawyer your client -- it wasn't a failure of recollection he was just thinking I wasn't going to get the records because in every situation he was working when the reports came in.

And so in my old days as a prosecutor I would have said the guy he recalled he was just telling me he didn't recall but, you know, so if you think legitimately a contractor has

misreported your benefit remittances I will get any record necessary to probe that. I don't want you to think I'm denying you an opportunity to challenge anything but if you know that you were likely working at the time what I would ask you to do is not put everybody through that exercise, fair enough?

A. Fair enough.

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MR. LOMBARDI: Do you understand what he is saying?

THE WITNESS: I have done it.

MR. LOMBARDI: There's no question yet.

Q. Having said all that I am going to give you certain exhibits. The fact that it has MG and a number on it doesn't mean anything other than it tells me it's likely an exhibit in Mike Guerin's deposition. The numbers mean nothing -- just a way to keep track. So let me show you what has been marked as MG-1 and just ask you if that is a copy of the notice which obliged you to come visit with me sooner or later?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you will notice that in there I have asked for records concerning your skill certification. And are there any records other than what you have provided me here because in the quick look through them -‑

A. No, I don't think there's a skills -- I mean skills of being a carpenter or, you know, what we do for a living.

Q. I understand that and basically what

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many carpenters bring in to me is like an ID card or a certificate from the school or something of that nature. And you know my view is if I think it becomes relevant because there are some times on your job referral you will see a skill goes on at one time and it goes off and then it comes back on again.

I am going to start from the proposition that you're entitled to whatever skills you put on and that you're not putting a skill on that you don't deserve. And believe it or not there have been shop stewards who have put skills on that they didn't deserve and you know that has been uncovered. It doesn't make them look as their most professional, put it that way, but I'm going to start with the proposition that when you add a skill you are entitled to add that skill for whatever schooling has been necessary.

For instance there's a 32-hour scaffolding skill that I am going to be talking to you about. And one of the things I was going to look for tonight is when you went and took that course is what it boils down to. So that's a question that's coming because it -- did you take

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a 32-hour scaffolding course at the district council?

A. No.

Q. So that's one of the reasons I would have liked to have seen that. But you have given me an honest answer and if I get to a skill, because I trust you Mr. Guerin, I start with the proposition you're an honest man and you may not be happy to be here but you're not going to compound the difficulty by lying to me which would be a mistake.

If I talk about a skill which you know you're not entitled to have just tell me direct up because you're far better off demonstrating to me and the court you are an honest and direct human being and you're not going to play games with anybody. Eventually the truth always comes out, that has been my experience. Fair enough?

A. Fair enough.

Q. So this being said what I am going to do is give you the exhibits that you can refer to as we go through the situation, all right. And I am going to have one for everybody here I think, I hope. I am going to give you what is marked as

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MG-3 and this is a record of the benefit remittance. Would you mind you and Mr. Lombardi sharing?

MR. LOMBARDI: It's easier that way.

Q. I'm going to give you also MG-5 which is what's maintained. These are the records of the hold calls that have come in and if you guys could share that would be -- Mr. Garcia and Ms. Wong and Mr. Sobocienski if you wish. And if you wish you can take some time to review what I am giving to you before we proceed if you would like to do so.

And I'm going to give you MG-2 which is a record of the job referral computer printout as to you. I'm giving that also to my colleagues here. What I think I will do is once I give these out I'm going to take a five minute break to allow you to familiarize yourself with what I have given you because there's a lot of data being communicated here. I'm going to also give you MG-7 which is basically a record of the dispatches that have basically handwritten directions about them.

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And finally last but not least because this is going to be one of my first questions at least this is what has been furnished to us by the district council of the charges that at one time were presented to you that's what was given to us as a record of what you were charged with way back.

And I know you have described already your perception of what happened there and again I reiterate I have no authority to charge anybody with anything so I don't want you to feel that I'm going to reiterate. The district council is the only one that has the authority to charge. I have a right though to raise questions about what the charges were and what the results were. But I have no authority, you know, to charge and I won't to be perfectly honest because I have always said I'm evaluating the district council's disciplinary system based upon what they do. I have no authority to do it, fair enough?

A. Fair enough.

Q. So what I would like to do is take five minutes and allow Mr. Lombardi and Mr. Guerin to just familiarize yourself with what I have given

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you. We are just going to go through them and you will need to be -- and I will ask you to look at this, what does that mean and you should at least have some idea what I am talking about and let me say this. I'm going to go slowly and one of the things that I think is important -- for instance, there are little idiosyncrasies Mr. Lombardi is familiar with although he may have forgotten them since he hasn't been here in some time.

For instance, the clock for the job referral system is on California time so basically the time that is being demonstrated you have got to add three hours to know what is New York time, all right?

A. Excuse me, this is the out of work list referral system? And this is on California time?

Q. Yes, it is.

A. I got the same.

Q. That you brought as well -‑

A. I brought the same -‑

Q. So I have done my level best to provide everything the district council has so that we are all on the same playing field here in terms of understanding what's there. The only idiosyncrasy

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is that timing and some of the entries you may not understand.

So why don't we take five minutes or seven minutes just to see what you have and then we will get started.

(Recess taken.)

(Discussion off the record.)

Q. We have had a little discussion that I want to make sure that my decision as independent counsel independent investigator is clear with respect to potential discipline of Mr. Guerin based upon anything that comes out tonight.

What I have said is that I have strong criticisms and I have had for many months maybe even years of the district council's disciplinary system because to me it is not transparent, it's not clear to the carpenters. It's not uniformly enforced and it is not something that most carpenters understand or know about or can rely upon or have confidence in.

And what is the most telling thing is almost any discipline can be appealed to the general convention which could occur every four years. And the sanctions imposed are such that

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they would be stayed or not in effect and I have found numerous cases when discipline has in fact been imposed and the district council never did anything about it. They didn't tell the carpenter, they didn't suspend the privileges. I have said very clearly to the director of operations and council that I felt significant work needed to be done to make the disciplinary system functionable and useful to the district council and I am saying it to you tonight. So because of my lack of respect for the disciplinary system as I understand it although I will say in fairness to the district council that they are seeking to improve it and it is evolving and starting to gain some of the attributes necessary for a good disciplinary system, one that can be relied upon and that the union members know.

I am not going to make a recommendation for you or for any other carpenter on dealing with riding the list let's say that way. I don't have enough confidence that the result is one that I can predict and is fair. And I say that to you tonight I am not going to recommend it. I can not

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predict what the district council is going to do with what they learn tonight or what has happened in the past. Those questions are questions for counsel and the district council to answer themselves.

So the only thing, and I will reiterate this, is I will definitely recommend to the Judge and to a prosecutor if you lie to me that you be prosecuted for perjury and obstruction of justice. I accept without question your commitment to tell me the truth tonight and that's the way I am going to proceed. So that is a summary of what I have just said and that hopefully addresses your concern. And if there's anything you would like to further ask, Mr. Guerin, or you want to say I think that's a recapitulation of what we said before we went on the record, fair enough?

A. Yes.

Q. You don't have to say anything but my position on that has been made clear to the director of operations for a long time and I would say this. When I learned that waivers were given to many people initially based upon a lot of efforts and a lot of people were riding the list

Page 43 Guerin

routinely or regularly or more than once I expressed what I felt was displeasure. There were people in the same group one who had ridden the list for the first time, just did it once, and there were people who had ridden the list numerous times and they got exactly the same results. That just didn't seem fair to me.

That was my view then and it is my view now. It didn't make any difference to the district council and they continued to do what they felt was appropriate and that's what they should do run their own union. And if in fact they change the disciplinary system I think they should and if I were around a little bit longer I would write a pretty direct report about what I thought about the disciplinary system and that could be a reason I will not be around. So maybe they will find someone who has more positive things to say about it but I wouldn't. Clear enough?

A. Clear enough.

MR. MACK: Anything else to be said, Mr. Lombardi?

MR. LOMBARDI: Nothing.

Page 44 Guerin

MR. MACK: Mr. Garcia?

MR. GARCIA: No.

Q. Let's proceed here. Now, let's turn right to what has been marked as Exhibit MG-4. And this is what has been furnished to me as a collection of the various charges that were at least presented to you and I don't need to go through them but let me ask this.

Does this appear to be the full collection of charges that you received copies of?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, in your own words and whatever help you need from Mr. Lombardi tell me what was the result of these charges?

A. Of these charges?

Q. Yes.

A. I agreed -- I admitted that I did ride the list and I signed the waiver basically giving me amnesty from these so-called charges or the slap of discipline and promised to never do it again and I haven't.

Q. Let me just go over this. Do you as we are here today in each one of these they refer to specific times and there's one hold call charge as

Page 45 Guerin

well. I can point that out to you where basically you say you were working at a time you placed a hold call in. Do you remember that?

A. Probably on more than one occasion I have done that.

Q. What I am asking here is did you in fact ride the list and be working when you put the hold call in as these charges are? In other words I want to make certain you're not telling me, hey, the only reason I plead guilty here was because I was going to get a good result and they are not true and I want to challenge them.

A. No, these are true. I worked and I put my name on the out of work list. I continued to work knowing that after I put my name on the out of work list to ensure a steady pay check, pay bills and food and what not.

Q. We're going to cover that and I want to say this -- every single carpenter who has said this to me has said exactly what you have and I respect that. I don't want you to think that if the out of work list with its rules is something that should not continue to affect carpenters that is something that the Judge needs to resolve. I

Page 46 Guerin

have had no role in designing the job referral list, recommending it, and that's one of the things that is nice about my job.

I can analyze it and find out facts about it and whether it should continue to exist and whether it serves its purposes. So you're not hurting my feelings if you tell me the way in which I think most people are, including myself, that people work hard to take care of those they love and have responsibilities and do the very best they can to maximize those qualities and those attributes. And I don't disrespect you for that and I hope you can understand my views on that.

A. I understand.

Q. Explain to me perhaps in a little greater detail who presented the benefits or the description of the waiver to you, how did that come?

MR. LOMBARDI: Let's go off the record.

MR. MACK: Tell me why you want to go off.

A. This is -- we already discussed the

Page 47 Guerin

waiver. We thought it was a non-issue, took it off the table and now you're bringing it back to the table.

MR. LOMBARDI: I have an objection to the question.

Q. I want to understand what the terms of the waiver are and who presented them, that's all. I'm not changing my -‑

MR. LOMBARDI: Do you have the waiver?

MR. MACK: I don't have a waiver. MR. LOMBARDI: Can you get the waiver?

MR. MACK: I don't know, I have asked for the waiver. I do not have the specific waiver. Just tell me the terms of the waiver that's all.

MR. LOMBARDI: I think he already has.

MR. MACK: Then you state it.

MR. LOMBARDI: No, I think he has. MR. MACK: Which are what?

MR. LOMBARDI: I think he already has.

Page 48 Guerin

MR. MACK: To me I missed it.

MR. LOMBARDI: With all due respect we're here almost two hours now and we have had a lot of statements made for the record about your disapproval of the district council and the handling of the disciplinary system yet you have no power to discipline.

So we are here I think to ask some questions of Mr. Guerin about his referral history, about his skill set, about the additions and deletions and benefits history. I am not going to have him interpret legal policies of the district council and I'm not going to do it either. And he has given you his understanding of what the waiver entailed.

By counsel Mr. Guerin has already responded to the question. And my understanding of his response and of the waiver itself is that so long as Mr. Guerin agrees to abide by the union rules and bylaws in their entirety with respect

Page 4 9 Guerin

to the proper maintenance of the list and things related thereto that he would not be sanctioned in any way for the charges identified in the June 9, 2004 charge form.

MR. MACK: All right, so all the charges that are contained in MG-4 is that what you are referring to?

MR. LOMBARDI: He received a waiver with respect to those charges.

Q. And a waiver means that there is no sanction either in terms of fine or anything of that nature; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

MR. MACK: Now, what I would like to do and let me ask this question to counsel -- what is your client's understanding if there were additional, if any, charges that were not covered specifically by these would that affect the waiver or not?

MR. LOMBARDI: I'm not sure if I understand your question.

MR. MACK: In other words if there

Page 50 Guerin

were charges of riding the list that were not specifically mentioned in the exhibits -‑

MR. LOMBARDI: In MG-4.

Q. Was there any understanding that it included not only what was there but any possible other violations up to a certain date?

MR. LOMBARDI: Do you understand his question?

A. I understand it. If you don't mind -­when I signed the waiver I admitted it from that day back.

Q. I see.

A. With any charge that they did not bring or bring I admitted to when I signed the waiver. Yes, I rode the out of work list, I did change my skills to obtain a job.

Q. Okay.

MR. LOMBARDI: So within the time period covered.

A. But since that day until today I have not done that infraction.

MR. LOMBARDI: What Mr. Mack is

asking you is in the time period covered

Page 51 Guerin

by MG-4.

A. 1998 through 2004.

Q. I don't have a copy of the waiver.

A. I don't have a copy of it either and I did ask and it's hard to come by as of yet.

Q. Can you give me an estimate. I think I know because I remember sometime it was in the winter of 2004. But do you have any recollection of what month it was that this waiver was signed by you?

A. Not in particular, no.

MR. LOMBARDI: It wasn't on June 9, 2004 the date on the charges or was it after?

Q. Even a season would be fine.

A. It was in the spring so it was right around that time, might have been right around up to that time.

Q. Around spring of 2004?

A. Yes.

Q. Let me just state this just so that I understand that in your mind because I don't have the document. I have asked for the document the waiver and I would if I were your lawyer I would

Page 52 Guerin

certainly want to ensure that this was in writing to protect you.

MR. LOMBARDI: I'm going to ask you to refrain further from telling him what you would do if you were his lawyer or what I should do as his lawyer.

MR. MACK: I think it's important.

MR. LOMBARDI: We are not here specifically to record what you think is important. We are here for a deposition but pretty soon we are going to have to start asking him questions.

MR. MACK: I don't know what that means but --

MR. LOMBARDI: Very plain what that means. This has been one long political statement since we have got here, more than usual. Please, I think we have on the record that from the time he executed the waiver in approximately June 2004 back to -‑

MR. MACK: Is it June 2004?

MR. LOMBARDI: Sometime in the spring of 2004 sometime around the time

Page 53 Guerin

of the plea form.

A. Yes.

MR. LOMBARDI: Back to the

earliest charge I see here is August 1998 that for that entire period of time there was an amnesty conferred upon you for the waiver for any charges that are in here or anything else.

MR. MACK: Or anything else?

MR. LOMBARDI: Or anything else.

A. That is my understanding.

MR. LOMBARDI: That's my client's understanding.

Q. So that will at least affect the questions I ask you but there are some questions in that time period. I'm not affected by that amnesty in terms of asking questions about specific jobs. It not only affects you but also affects other individuals so let me ask some series of questions some of which Mr. Lombardi has heard before types of questions.

And then we're going to go over some specific instances that I am interested in finding out more data about. You don't have a copy of the

Page 54 Guerin

amnesty?

A. No.

Q. Do you recall was there a written document prepared at the time that you signed?
A. Yes.

Q. And you were not furnished a copy of that?

A. I might have been I'm not too organized in paperwork.

Q. Let me ask some general questions. At any time, and I don't need to go all the way back to 1998, I would like to start in 2000, has any contractor on any job site in which you were on offered to cause you or ask you to change your shop steward report to be inaccurate or to record carpenters in an inaccurate way?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever received any type of cash or things of that nature or even offered cash in order to do something which you knew not to be consistent with union rules?

A. Excuse me one minute please.

MR. LOMBARDI: You're talking about since 2000?

Page 55 Guerin

MR. MACK: Since 2000.

A. No.

Q. Was there a time within this amnesty period and let me say in which I want you to understand that even though you took the position get out of my face with this, or I don't want to hear it, what have you, my question is broader than that. It's saying the contractor come to you and try to get you to do something which you refused to do, that question would also call for that answer.

A. No.

Q. So it never happened?

A. No.

Q. Now, have there been any occasions in which a business agent has recommended or provided guidance or direction to you that would assist you at your assignment as a shop steward to a job site?

A. Repeat the question again.

Q. I'm going to go through specific ones but I want to ask the broad question. Have there been any occasions and let me again limit my question to from 2000 going forward and not

Page 56 Guerin

withstanding the amnesty, I don't recognize any amnesty, so I don't want you to feel that the district council gave me amnesty, I don't have to answer it. I am asking you the question.

Has there been an occasion in which a business agent or business manager, let me be that broad, has advised you or given you advice that would have the effect to increase your chances or did in fact assist you in getting a job?

THE WITNESS: Can we step out a minute?

Q. It's a broad question. I can ask the question more than once.

(Discussion off the record.)

Q. So just take me through it if you would and so I can listen carefully and tell me what the answer is.

A. Yes.

Q. When, with whom, where, what occasion?

A. On a couple occasions when I was working with Jerry Philbin. He was my agent and I would work closely with Jerry and Jerry would

Page 57 Guerin

mention he had something coming up. Maybe I should add a few skills or delete a few skills to ensure or maybe you might be able to get that job and work with Jerry again and I did.

Q. I just lost you -- work with Jerry?

A. As a business when you work with a business agent he relies on you to be up front with him and help him, let him know what is going on with the job. And he trusted me to tell him what was going on with the job and we worked well together, we had a good rapport and yeah, he helped me get some work.

Q. Now, do you remember specific jobs that he assisted you in getting work? We can go through some because I would like to get the benefit of your recollection to start.

A. Yes, there are two -- 2002.

Q. So are there others before 2002?

A. There might have been a few occasions where he helped me to secure some employment, yes.

MR. MACK: Let me ask and I know this is a dangerous thing but let me ask Mr. Lombardi what is the most efficient way for me to cover each one? Do you

Page 58 Guerin

want me to start or does your client -­can he specify based upon what I have provided or what his preparation today to isolate the job because you know what -­where was the job, who said what, all of that detail, what is your suggestion?

MR. LOMBARDI: I suggest we let Mr. Guerin attempt to direct you to the individual instances and then not go over them again afterwards.

MR. MACK: Well, if I have further questions.

MR. LOMBARDI: Further questions. MR. MACK: I will try to do my best listening.

Q. You fire away if you would and identify -- if you could start at the earliest point and take me forward.

A. There was an office tower 745 Seventh Avenue. That was Jerry's job, it was a concrete job, a goulash job, meaning that it was a steel job with, you know, concrete form made around the steel for fireproofing and structural strength. I had done that back in the day when I broke into

Page 59 Guerin

the business as a goulash carpenter doing concrete work. So he said we have a nice job coming up. Put down that you do concrete work and protection work and we will see if we can stay on the list as long as possible and then when your number drops low enough you'll submit the job to the district council.

Q. Okay, now what I would like to do just so that I can be specific I would like to find the job the dispatch. Do you remember the contractor's name?

A. Century Max.

Q. So let's find that dispatch and that will make it easier for me. If you know what approximately was the date of that?

A. It was right around -- right after the winter so March.

MR. LOMBARDI: What year?

THE WITNESS: 2000.

Q. I'm looking at MG-7.

A. That's right.

Q. So let me look at that. So what I'm looking at here is a dispatch which appears to be May 3, 2000; is that correct?

Page 60 Guerin

A. Yes.

Q. And that's a Century Max job. The location is at 49th and Broadway. Is that the job we are talking about?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, what is the significance if any of the fact that the request form which I am looking at which is MG-7 has Maurice McGrath as the caller?

A. There was only -- that's in the office. I really couldn't tell you what this one is, you understand, I didn't send that in, I never seen this before until today. So I don't know any names. I know I had a deal with Jerry Philbin so when I got the phone call I called up Jerry and that's who I dealt with, no other agent, any other business on the job I dealt with Jerry and that was it.

Q. Now, when you say you got the phone call just tell me what that phone call is -- from whom?

A. District council.

Q. And the district council assigned you to the job?

Page 61 Guerin

A. Correct.

Q. So just if you would take me through how Jerry assisted you in getting this job again - and be as precise as you can be.

A. There was a foundation job that was going to be an office tower for Morgan Stanley Dean Witter and it would have been a long time job for four or five months and he said change your skills set. Put down concrete, wood framing, layout protection and when your numbers come down low enough he will submit the job to the council.

Q. Jerry would?

A. Well, in this case it was Maurice. He probably told me to hang on until the job was ready, until my number came down. And when my name came down low enough they sent it to the council and that's how I got the phone call for that job.

Q. So would it be fair to say you anticipated -‑

A. I anticipated that job.

MR. LOMBARDI: Let him finish the question.

Q. Now, did you have any conversations

Page 62 Guerin

with Maurice McGrath about this job that you can recall?

A. No.

Q. So you yourself had no interaction with Maurice McGrath about getting this job?

A. No.

Q. Just bear with me for one moment. I want to say one thing to you and I'm not suggesting
you do this or are doing this. But I would say that there is some evidence in other matters having nothing to do with you, all right, and so I just want to raise it that it is a matter under some consideration that some carpenters have been advised. Since Jerry Philbin is no longer around to defend himself that if there is someone to blame for certain actions, and I'm just saying this in the most courteous way, and I'm not in any way suggesting that you are not telling the truth, but I will tell you because I think I have the duty to tell you. There is a hotline call, several on this very point, obviously by people whom have close relationships currently or in the past with Jerry Philbin.

They are to the effect that either they

Page 6 3 Guerin

were advised or some people have been advised that if there is a choice to blame somebody pick on Jerry because, you know, he is gone is what it boils down to. And again let me say this in the most positive and constructive way. I don't accuse you of that but there are people who feel that sometimes Jerry is unfairly blamed for things that he didn't do. So I would ask you and I know your lawyer has also said this is to blame, you know, whatever happened. If it's Jerry it's Jerry but if it's somebody else it's somebody else, fair enough?

A. Yup.

Q. What was your relationship with Jerry Philbin?

A. Jerry was like a mentor to me from back in the day. He was one of the first big time shop stewards with a few other gentlemen and as he moved up the ranks he relied on certain individuals and I had a lot of good times with Jerry. I'm not going to shirk that but we were good friends.

Q. Now, I have asked you this but with respect to this particular job at Century Max you

Page 64 Guerin

had no contact with Maurice McGrath but you can't speak as to what Jerry did or anything concerning Maurice McGrath, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Why don't we go to the next occasion in which you had assistance from a business. I'm not going to assume it is Jerry. I'm going to wait for you to tell me what happened and the specific case.

A. The next job would have been -‑

Q. You may want to go through your dispatch, that may be a more efficient way.

A. The other job was the Westin Times Square.

Q. So can you give me an approximate time period?

A. That was in December of 2000 through October of 2001 -- Sorbara.

Q. Is that 660 Eighth Avenue?

A. Yes.

Q. So the time period that I am showing I am going to look at what I consider to be the dispatch and the request so I have that as being November 24, 2000; is that correct?

Page 65 Guerin

A. That's correct.

Q. If you would just tell me what happened there. And I notice there were a whole series of skills added and deleted and just take me through that if you would.

A. Same case scenario -- the office tower was winding down and it was busy, a lot of work around, there was a job coming up, a reinforced concrete job at 43rd and Eighth Avenue.

Q. That was the Westin?

A. Yes, so I put my name on the out of work list so I kept working at the hotel probably added and deleted to play the game with the out of work list and secured that job. And I did deal with Maurice McGrath for a short period of time.

And then there was a switch with business agents and Jerry was my agent again. So when I had to bring down my time sheets I brought a few down to Maurice they switched.

Q. Just say that to me again I didn't understand what you told me. The business agents switched?

A. They all switched their locations. I was told to see Jerry again -- to deal with any

Page 66 Guerin

business matters on the job to see Jerry Philbin.

Q. Now, let me just pull together because I want to ask you some specific questions on this job.

Now, with specific reference to this job at the Westin here when you told me that you originally dealt with Maurice McGrath -‑

A. Yes.

Q. Does that mean that you were just simply bringing your reports to him or that he was advising you what skills to have on your sheet?

A. I was to bring my time sheets to Maurice McGrath. It was his area at the time and that's what I did.

Q. Was he advising you -- was Mr. McGrath advising you ever how to increase the likelihood that you would get the Sorbara job?

A. No.

Q. Now, is it fair for me to believe that you were working at the time that you went on the out of work list?

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, what we see on your job referral history is that you added skills, sexual

Page 6 7 Guerin

harassment, power activated tool. And then if you look with me -‑

MR. LOMBARDI: When was that?

MR. MACK: The actual add was

November 20, 2000.

Q. And basically two days later the dispatch is out and I have the dispatch in front of me and you can have it as well and it's part of MG-7.

Are you telling me that it was Jerry Philbin who recommended that you add those skills for the jobs to increase your likelihood?

A. I had taken classes down at the district council and they were part of the requirements and, yes, he said add these to get that.

Q. Okay, and the "he" in that sentence is Jerry Philbin?

A. Yes.

Q. Had you taken the 10-hour OSHA course at the school?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, again you will notice -‑

MR. LOMBARDI: Just for the record

Page 68 Guerin

the 10-hour OSHA was not added on those dates.

MR. MACK: The 10-hour OSHA was added on November 13th.

MR. LOMBARDI: Before that we are talking about two days before.

MR. MACK: Thank you for helping me and basically -‑

MR. LOMBARDI: I want the record to be accurate.

MR. MACK: Thank you for watching the record on my behalf.

MR. LOMBARDI: You're welcome. And also for the record demand and request does not reference sexual harassment but it does reference the OSHA.

MR. MACK: The OSHA and the power activated tool.

MR. LOMBARDI: Right but not sexual harassment.

MR. MACK: As we say in the trade the document speaks for itself.

Q. And what I do want to refer to now is

Page 69 Guerin

the fact that again Maurice McGrath is identified as the caller for that and I ask the same question as before.

Do you understand or know why it would be Mr. McGrath at least on this sheet who made the call?

A. Yes, because at the time that was Maurice's area to -- he had the jurisdiction of that area so that building was in his location. I got to the job a few weeks after I -‑

Q. Jerry switched?

A. Everything switched and I was told Jerry said come see me.

Q. Okay, so were you on this job before you became the shop steward, is that what you are telling me?

A. No, I was on the office tower.

Q. So was Jerry the responsible business agent on November 22, 2000 the date of the assignment because you will notice that the dispatch has Maurice McGrath?

A. Maurice was the responsible business agent at the time and then there was a switch.

Q. But that occurred after --

Page 70 Guerin

A. After I had landed on the job.

Q. Can you tell me if you know whether Maurice in fact made the call on the Sorbara job or not or in other words I have a record that reflects Maurice as being the caller on this date November 22, 2000.

MR. LOMBARDI: To the district council.

MR. MACK: Right.

MR. LOMBARDI: Do you personally know if he made that call?

THE WITNESS: No, I don't.

Q. Do you know if Jerry had in fact made recommendations or had some role since I think you just told me if I understand you correctly that Jerry did not take over responsibility for several weeks after the dispatch?

A. Correct.

Q. So I am trying to find out whether Jerry had a hand in this specific request for dispatch?

MR. LOMBARDI: Do you know?

THE WITNESS: Not particularly, no, I don't know.

Page 71 Guerin

Q. But was it Jerry or Maurice who gave you the recommendation as to the skills to add?

A. I already had those skills so Jerry. I just finished taking the power activated tool class and he said put that on your skills. And when I put that on the skills they must have talked to each other, I don't know what they do.

Q. That's for me to find out.

But you don't have any knowledge of that?

A. No.

Q. Take me to the next job in which you had some assistance in increasing the likelihood of you being assigned to it.

A. I went down to a job 200 Vesey Street the American Express Tower right after 9/11. I went down there, I got laid off from the hotel. Jerry said put these down, delete these, you got to get down there, that's what I did.

Q. So let's see if -- it was right after September 11th so I am naturally going to turn to September 20, 2001 which appears to be around the time period.

When did you get laid off from the

Page 72 Guerin

Sorbara job approximately?

A. Right around -- right after 9/11 -­right around that happened.

Q. So I have you going back on September 20, 2001. You're added to the OUL, the out of work list, and you change your phone?

A. I just bought a phone. I was using my home phone but then I have to be home to get the phone call and it was an upstate number so I bought a phone and started using a cell phone.

Q. The only reason I mention that is it may assist you in remembering what happened. Then as you will see and I will just read this briefly to you. On September 26th you added acoustical ceiling siding you deleted welding and refrigeration.

A. That is correct.

Q. You did that at the suggestion of Jerry Philbin?

A. Right away he said you got to get down there, change your qualifications, and that's what I did.

Q. So was this a recommendation by Jerry on the phone or in person?

Page 73 Guerin

A. Right in person. I went down to the union hall -- he said right way -- he said do this right now and that is what I did.

Q. Do you know whether or not he had a role in seeing that this job was called in right away?

A. I'm not particularly sure about that, I wouldn't know that.

Q. Actually you have some help on this because if you just turn you will see that there is a call on September 26th directly there from Jerry with specific skills.

A. Yes, that's what I did.

Q. So you basically were following Jerry's advice to do what he told you?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay, let me ask you a general question and it may save some time. There are a number of occasions where I see you are referred to a job and you stay on it almost very brief. This is sort of the opposite, very brief period of time, sometimes a matter of hours. So the question is we can go through specific ones, but would it be fair that if you are referred to a job which you

Page 74 Guerin

believe not to be worth staying at you will simply leave?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. On some of those occasions you leave because you know there's a better job coming down or you would like at least a better job?

A. It would be more fair to say that after sitting on the out of work list for three months I can't take a three week job. I'm going to wait another couple of days to get a decent job for three months. I can't afford to sit home another three months, work for three weeks, sit out for three months, I would be -‑

Q. So you want to make sure you get --

A. A decent job, not a long term, a decent job.

Q. Let me ask this. In your own words, I know you alluded to it before, tell me what is a decent job, what is a job that you wish to try for, what are its components?

A. Anything for six months is a good job. Anything longer than that is a little bonus but

Page 75 Guerin

four to six months is a good job.

Q. And I think we have agreed that if there is a job that doesn't appear to be in that category you may stay a very short time with the hopes that another job will come along?

A. That's correct.

Q. At the time period and I'll even say during the waiver period so that you're not getting nervous that I'm trying to fool or trick you with a question again -‑

A. All right.

Q. When you know you're riding the list -­and I'm going to presume unless you tell me that you know that the out of work list at least to some means that you're not actually working and you were working during the time period -- in terms of your analysis of why you had to do that or why it needed to be done or why people do it, just go through it for me and the Judge. I have heard it from many but just tell me why it's okay or why you did it from time to time, let me put it that way.

A. Myself in general?

Q. Your own perspective on it.

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A. I do it to keep working because you know that's the business so as being a carpenter steward I take a lot of grief from the company. I take a lot of grief from the contractors and from my own people but, you know, I feel like maybe I should be one-up on a regular guy. I extend myself to do what I have to do, the right thing to do by the union, but maybe they should extend themselves for me to move on quickly without waiting so long on the list, you know what I mean.

Q. I want to do justice to this. My feeling is this -- that I want to make sure I understand in your mind, you know, when you say you did more than many -- in other words you are I am sure an outstanding shop steward but when you tell me that you do more or that you fight for the union or do -- just set that forth to me. Why on behalf of the district council is your presence on a job site so important?

A. Well, my presence on a job is to protect our jurisdiction, to make sure that the contractor is on the legitimate end of the business and that all the men get their benefits, they have a safe working condition and to, you

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know, facilitate it is a clean working union job.

Q. Now, presumably that is the objective of every shop steward, that is what the school probably trains. But is it your view, and I happen to know it is the view of a number that you know, there are certainly different qualities, some shop stewards are better than other shop stewards. Do you see yourself in other words that you are in that category of excellent shop stewards?

A. I don't want to paraphrase you but I am sure you would say some lawyers are better than others, correct? I just want to be the average guy. I'm not looking to be above and beyond I'm no superman. I'm not going be taken advantage of either, you understand?

Q. So if I understood you correctly before and if I didn't then you should correct me but I seem to sense that you were saying because of what you do as a stop steward in your mind it was okay for you to be riding the list on occasion. Did I misunderstand that?

A. No, you're right.

Q. That's a hard thing to quantify for

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let's say a policy maker whether it's the district council or the government. Or in other words are there reasons that justify people being on the list when they are working? I want to make sure I have given you an opportunity to explain why you say it that way.

A. Well, if you were sitting where I'm sitting most company guys and foremen alike they get to move around without impunity. They go to all the good jobs and wherever the company is working. And back in the day it would have been evenly matched with the 50/50 that the local guys would have gotten a lions share of the job but we don't get that today. So in my case in general I extend myself to the working guy and I try to keep -- I expect -- not that I expect -- excuse me -- I pretend in my own mind maybe that I should go out above the regular guy.

Q. And therefore the rules of the out of work list should not apply to you as stringently; would that be fair?

A. That would be fair because we don't get any extra moneys like a foreman gets extra moneys for running the jobs. He gets holidays and

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vacation we don't get that. We get the grief from the working guy and the company and the super and the general contractor and even sometimes from our own, you know, because they see things. They are not on the job. When you're on the job every day that daily grind believe me it wears you down.

Q. I am sure that's true.

A. It's not an easy thing to do correctly.

Q. I'm sure that's true and as I have said many times here I'm just a lawyer and not a carpenter and that's why I do ask these questions. And now that the topic has come up let me seize the moment and ask you what is your opinion of the request system as it currently functions?

A. It doesn't work.

Q. I have written about it but .I would like to hear your views on that subject.

A. It's unbiased, it's unbalanced, and it doesn't work. The contractor has the whole pie and is only giving you a sliver.

Q. Just explain that because the Judge will be reading this or his clerk and he spends less time thinking about these subjects than I do so you need to be very clear about what you're

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telling him.

A. When you have a job that is company manned they don't care for the union because they are relying on the company to keep them working, you understand. So they will do whatever the contractor asks them to do. You want to work through lunch, you want to start early, you want to work a little late without getting paid they will do that. Do you understand?

Q. Yes.

A. I mean there are certain safety issues that they skirt and violate because they need to keep working. So they won't look for a harness to put on, they'll just go do what they got to do. Meanwhile I would say put a harness on and I'm a bad guy and I don't want to be the bad guy. But I want to make sure that guy goes home to his wife and kids. So the out of work list is a means of keeping the local guys out of work and the company guys working because those guys go on the list, off the list, on the list every day. But when that local guy does it or a carpenter does it he gets brought up on charges for violating the out of work rules.

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Q. Just so that the Judge knows you're lifting up the exhibit with your charges.

A. Right.

Q. What is that number?

A. MG-4.

Q. I just want to spell it out because I do have opinions. You and I agree on this to be perfectly honest. There are areas of agreement and I have written about it and I have written a report you should read it, it's pretty strong about the 50/50 system.

In any event just to make sure spell it out because the contractor not only picks the company men he also by requesting people that are on the list maybe just that instant or for a very short time really in effect is picking 90 percent or more of the work force on the site.

A. Correct.

Q. And in fact the shop steward is theoretically the only individual who is coming off the list?

A. From unemployment.

Q. Is there anything else about the request system or your view that you want the

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Judge to have in mind?

A. To be fair the contractor shouldn't have that kind of power, you know, because it's all one sided.

Q. Let me give you the push back that the district council as well as the contractors who sat where you have come back. They say, hey, listen Mr. Geurin and Mr. Mack -- what happens when we take people off the list we get people in the concrete world and concrete, especially concrete, as you know is very arduous, you need people to know what they are doing. We pay X amount per hour so much per day and the people the union sends us off the list are not competent to do the work we ask them to do. And that's why we have to have this right to pick and choose our entire work force. What is your answer to that argument?

A. That's insignificant because any guy, any carpenter, should be able to walk on to any job and do any aspect of that trade.

Q. I also add to that that if he doesn't or she doesn't know that there are school and other people who can train them in a short period

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of time to be adequate. Would that be fair?

A. That is fair.

Q. Let's move on to the next job in which you had some assistance or guidance in being able to be assigned to it. And you just keep moving along and see if there are others.

A. I didn't really particularly care for working down here after 9/11 so I asked to leave.

Q. I see -- you're going back. Now, there's a time, let me see here, that you actually were on that job and I see you back on the out of work list on October 26, 2001.

A. That's right.

Q. That is because you were uncomfortable as I was.

A. Right, that was November 26th.

Q. All right.

A. I was there exactly two months.

Q. So you were actually, all right -- and so you went back -- so tell me again was there another job or what is the next job in which you had some guidance or assistance in being assigned?

A. There was the Northside job at the Trump.

Q. Let's talk about that job because I know a little bit about that job which I don't understand.

A. Trump Building F.

Q. I know the building but I would like you to take me through how you came to be assigned to that job, what happened there?

A. When I stepped off the Ground Zero job there were a few things working, you know, around the city. At the time everybody was concentrating down here, there was very little things going on. Everybody like froze, all those jobs uptown stopped, everybody was concentrating down here.

So then in the meantime before I went to that Northside job I did one week at 96th Street and West End Avenue with Oilean Concrete. That job was a plank job meaning that they're structural planks for the slab. So the concrete work that we did on that particular job we were on the second floor. There was only two walls and a staircase wall and once that was formed and poured and stripped brick layers would come and block the exterior walls, a few hallway walls, and put the planks on top of that and then we could come back.

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I didn't come back because the guy -- I was there four days.

Q. What was the problem?

A. Because the guy told me I have no work for you come back in two weeks. I said no I will leave and get my money and I am leaving. I ended up going to the Northberry job.

Q. Tell me what happened at the Northberry job. I have heard a lot about that job. Did you have some assistance or guidance in getting that?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me about it.

A. Jerry believe it or not.

Q. Okay.

A. I work closely with Jerry and he said yeah, we have something coming uptown with Northberry. I never worked with these guys before so we'll make some arrangements for you to go up there.

Q. Say that last sentence to me again. We will make some arrangements.

A. We discussed my out of work skills, my work skills.

Q. Who is the we in that sentence?

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A. Me and Jerry.

Q. Anyone else in the we?

A. No.

Q. And tell me what your discissions were and what you decided to do and what was done as best as you can remember?

A. At that time I had drywall after just coming from 9/11 and acoustical ceilings on my skills. I switched that back to concrete protection and layout.

Q. Was that because Jerry recommended you do that?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, were you aware that you missed the first dispatch on this job?

A. No, no, I didn't know that.

Q. So that never came to your attention that basically there was a referral, an immediate dispatch, and you were bypassed because you didn't answer your phone?

A. I believe that was 65th Street.

Q. Okay, we will get to that.

A. On the Trump Building F.

Q. The Trump Building F the skills that

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were added -- did you have eight-hour scaffolding?

A. At that time, yes.

Q. But those skills were in fact it was recommended to you that you add them by Jerry Philbin; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

MR. LOMBARDI: For this job? MR. MACK: This job.

MR. LOMBARDI: It's almost over a month ahead of time.

THE WITNESS: What -- this job?

MR. LOMBARDI: When you added the eight-hour scaffolding it was on November 14th.

THE WITNESS: I had taken that class that class was for Ground Zero.

Q. Eight-hour scaffolding?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay, I didn't know that.

But anyway Jerry assisted you with what skills should be necessary for Trump Building F, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Did you know at the time John

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Vecchione?

A. No, that was the first time I met him.

Q. That was on the Trump job?

A. Right and at that time he was working finishing up another job so I only met the guy for like five minutes and then left.

Q. So how long were you on building F?

A. We were doing the make up. We made all the form work, we were there at least three weeks before he came in, maybe four weeks, small crew of guys making forms. We made sets of forces and walls and columns.

Q. And basically you were working for Northside when you were added to the out of work list or at one time I have you added on July 11th 2002.

A. July 11th?

Q. I have you originally assigned -- you can look at the benefits -- it looks like December 10, 2001.

A. December 18th.

Q. December 18th, right.

A. July -‑

MR. LOMBARDI: The bottom of page

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seven.

Q. You were on that job -- approximately how long that really was my question -- if you remember. And you will see that you go back on the out of work list in July 2002.

A. It's a better job. I did work -- I did work those two months until -- that's a better job with Trump Building A -- I did work with my name on the out of work list.

Q. I'm not going to dwell on that one thing. Did you ever come into contact with a company called Silo Construction?

A. When I was on 96th Street one day that Thursday when I was leaving a gentleman came in and said he was doing the protection and he worked for Silo. So I carded him and he said he was the carpenter steward there so I took him for his word and I was leaving that day so I really -- you know.

Q. What job site are you talking about -­West 96th Street?

A. Yes, the 96th and West End Avenue.

Q. When did that occur in 2001?

A. That was the day with Oilean that was

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yeah, Oilean, right, I was in between the two jobs, right.

Q. Do you remember the name of who that person was?

A. Not today no.

Q. Was there anything about the conduct of Silo Construction in that short period that gave you reason to question anything about them?

A. No.

MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Do you know who the GC was on that job?

THE WITNESS: Actually I'm not too familiar with the GC. I remember it was a real rough job, you know, barely organized. It was pretty pathetic actually and I really didn't pay too much attention because I seen the job. From my point of view it was a short term job so I wasn't really too concerned about what was going on there.

MR. SOBOCIENSKI: How about the construction manager if there was one?

THE WITNESS: I didn't meet no construction manager. There was a GC

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there but I can't recall the contractor or the person running the job.

Q. Did a business agent come to the site when you were there at any time?

A. Joey Firth did come one day and he was like what is going on here, are you okay here.

And I told him I will be leaving by the end of the week and he said all right.

Q. Did it ever come to your attention that Joey Firth might have had an altercation,

argument, dispute, interaction of a violent nature with anyone on that job site?

A. No.

MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Do you know a contractor by the name of Finbar O'Neal?

THE WITNESS: I heard of that name before.

MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Did you know him to be on that job site?

THE WITNESS: I didn't see him at any particular time, no.

Q. Did you hear at all that he was there or had any organization or persons there at the job site?

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A. No, I had just the people I was working with Oilean.

Q. Now, when you say the job was disorganized or you had criticism can you flesh that out for me a little -- what you mean by that in terms of your own -‑

A. It was a mess.

Q. Just tell me what.

A. It was in disarray. There was debris and shit all over the place. It was a safety hazard, complete chaos. I didn't think the guy had a handle on the job. It gave me another reason to step off, I didn't feel like getting hurt.

Q. What was the nature of the safety issues that you saw at that job site?

A. Garbage, debris piled up, holes that were without protection, it was a mess, it was a disgrace.

Q. Did you communicate any of your concerns?

A. I did, there was a site safety guy there as a matter of fact and he didn't seem too concerned about it either.

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Q. Do you know from where or when?

A. I think it was Total Site Safety.

Q. And he seemed unconcerned?

A. He was concerned but he didn't really force the issue.

Q. Why not, any opinion?

A. No, I have no opinion.

Q. And did you communicate any of your concerns about the job site to Joe Firth or any other business agent?

A. I might have called and said this place is a mess and I won't be too long here and I'm leaving.

Q. Do you believe you did that?

A. I believe I did that, believe me I did that, I left on my own accord.

Q. Do you believe that you communicated your concerns to Joe Firth?

A. Yes, I told Joey this is a shit hole and I'm packing my shit up and I'm leaving.

Q. I would like you to take me to the next job in which you had advice or counsel or assistance from a business agent that helped you get the job.

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A. There was that Sorbara job.

Q. Okay.

A. That was breaking right around the same time I was finishing up and I kept my name on the out of work list. There was no real help there but I went there, I went there and I was a carpenter steward for the foundation company. HRH was the general contractor -- regular straight up job.

Q. Did you get any assistance in getting that job?

A. I had told Jerry that there was a foundation breaking because I was in the neighborhood you know F to A it was a short walk all the heavy equipment you couldn't miss it. So I advised them there's a job breaking up on 72nd Street and he said all right maybe we could slot you in there. I said that will be fine I like the neighborhood and I got comfortable there.

Q. How do you stay informed -- and I think I know the answer to this -- but I want to hear from you. How do you stay informed about good jobs that are breaking or jobs that are in the pipeline?

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A. The first good sign of a good job is the general contractor, you see Tishman you know that's a home run job. You want to get on that job. Safety is good, money is right, the contractor is going to be good. And you work your way down, you know, from Tishman, Bovis, Turner, HRH, all the way down to the shit on the bottom of your shoe. You know that's the one you want to avoid.

Q. And tell me how do you stay informed about those contractors and what their work plans are?

A. You know, you see people, you meet and greet, this is our business, you know, like you know other lawyers we know other tradesmen. They talk to each other and we talk to them and that's how we stay in touch.

Q. Did the business agents also help in that perspective?

A. They understand, they got the dodge report, they go through the dodge report, they know the scenario and once they see the GC on the title of the dodge report that's a good job.

Q. Do they communicate that to everybody

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or only stewards that they have respect for?

A. Most of the time they don't say it. They might put it out as -- throw it out there to see who is listening but anything decent they would -‑

Q. Speak to the stewards they feel that are the most competent?

A. That is correct.

(Recess taken.)

Q. Unless I forget this although we talked with primary emphasis upon Jerry Philbin tonight in terms of any of these skill changes or advice did John Greaney have any role in this?

A. Not particularly.

MR. LOMBARDI: Are you talking about the jobs we have already covered?

MR. MACK: Jobs we have already covered.

A. Like I said I dealt with Jerry. We were good friends, drinking buddies, the whole scenario.

Q. But for instance on some of the jobs and others that come up John Greaney is involved. You will see one in a minute, all right.

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A. These cover sheets we don't see so we don't know. So then what they do is when I got my phone call saying this is going in, be ready, I said okay. I had no knowledge of this scenario at all.

Q. You say this scenario just so the Judge knows what we're talking about the handwritten dispatch sheets that are part of MG-7, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. So the point I'm making is when Jerry Philbin you're telling me when he called you he would say the job has gone in or is going in, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. You don't know who actually called the job in?

A. That is correct.

Q. And when he says the job is going in it means someone from the district council or knowledgeable is calling the out of work list telling the job needs a steward?

A. That is correct.

Q. Have you ever discussed any of these issues concerning assistance to get the particular

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job with John Greaney or in John Greaney's presence?

A. I'm sure I might have suggested it or talked about it sitting and having a cocktail but I can't specifically recall anything that you would -- you know, but I basically dealt with Jerry on day-to-day business with jobs.

Q. Primarily?

A. Primarily.

Q. But there may have been occasions where other business agents were in his company when these issues were discussed?

A. Actually Jerry was kind of secretive. He didn't want everybody knowing everybody's business and I particularly -- I liked that you mind your own business when you're not being spoken to, you understand what I'm saying.

Q. Now, other than with your attorney, Mr. Lombardi, as to whom I would never try to breach any confidential communication between you and him, but other than him have you discussed your testimony here today with any other human being?

A. I did -- when I did get the letter I

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did call Don.

Q. That I know.

A. I did call up Maurice Leary and I was venting to Don and Maurice about I signed a waiver, what is this, I'm being, you know, harassed or whatever, but not on your end, you know, the hotline end, you know what I mean. Because I know guys that are calling that are jealous, they see me but they don't see what I do.

Q. You know I'm not going to irritate you by saying that their point is some people follow certain rules and other people don't. So the point here is to gather facts but what I'm asking you now is did anyone other than your lawyer provide you guidance or advice about how you should conduct yourself here today?

A. No.

Q. Now, one thing just for the record and I have said this and I don't know whether I have communicated it but I know this was one of the issues that was presented in terms of my trying to supplement my income by doing things that are unnecessary.

A. You're going to hold on to that for a

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while. You keep bringing that up -- I don't want to say -- this time you slipped it in a little too far.

Q. Listen to what I'm saying to you. So any time you or any other carpenter wants to come down and look at my bills every one of you are invited.

A. I appreciate that.

Q. So my view is that if you wish to do so I would be glad to make them available to any carpenter who wants to look at them.

A. Since you put it on the record I would like to see a bill or all your bills since they have been incorporated into this because you offered them to me. I will take you up on that offer.

Q. All you have to do is call the people who work here and you come down and go through every one of them, fair enough?

A. Fair enough.

Q. Now, take me through or to the next job in which you had some assistance, guidance, direction or whatever is the right word to assist you to get to a job?

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A. When I was doing the foundation at building A I would walk up to Broadway and walk down to the union hall and I would see that job in the early stages of the process of the foundation. And in that process I was working for Trump Building A and they were doing a foundation for Glenwood who was the general contractor owner developer on 65th and Broadway so I was snooping around, I talked to Dominick the super.

Q. Do you know Dominick's last name?

A. No. So I talked to Dominick on the street. I was getting a little information and I would go down to talk to Jerry because I had a short term foundation job. It was a quick shot, you know, three, four months in and out but it was a 40-hour week so it ain't too bad.

So I mentioned to Jerry that it would be nice if I could make arrangements to work up there and then I heard Northberry was the superstructure contractor and I talked to John Vecchione.

Q. You knew him because -‑

A. I had worked with him already and he said, yeah, I am going to do that job, talk to

Page 102 Guerin

Jerry and make some arrangements so we can get, you know, if I can get that job.

Q. Make some arrangements so that you can get that job?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, just spell out for the Judge what arrangements, what do you mean by that?

A. Well, at that particular time I really didn't have to change too many job skills because they are all particularly the same. I might have added one or two to facilitate that job and I did miss that phone call.

Q. You did, what happened there?

A. It did not come to my phone. It came on the answering machine and I was wild, I was upset. So I called up John Vecchione. I told him to cancel the job due to weather and submit it in a couple days and he did.

Q. That's what we thought happened.

A. That's exactly what happened.

Q. There was some weather that day.

A. Yes, there was -- I knew to play it off on the weather.

Q. He was agreeable to do that?

Page 103 Guerin

A. Yes.

Q. Because he wanted you as his steward. Do you have any idea who was the person who got that job the first time?

A. No, why should I care?

Q. I hear you, he cares but so be it.
MR. SOBOCIENSKI: So for the couple of days of cancellation did the job run without a steward?

THE WITNESS: No, there was nobody there.

Q. Basically John Vecchione wanted you at the job site and was prepared to do whatever was necessary to get you there?

A. Right.

Q. Now, let me show you something that has puzzled me a little bit but I think you can answer the question for me. MG-8 -- what can you tell me -- what can you tell me about this piece this exhibit here?

A. This is the first time I seen this letterhead. Anthony Martinelli, the owner's son, had told me they had wrote a letter to have me

Page 104 Guerin

requested to come up there as a carpenter steward. I said Anthony that's not going to work. So I said there was no real weight in this. So I have heard of this but I didn't see it until today.

Q. Now, this actually was used for the dispatch, all right, now, first of all do you know whose writing this is?

MR. LOMBARDI: There are two pages.

MR. MACK: Right.

A. The first page looks like John Vecchione's handwriting, right, and the second page --

MR. LOMBARDI: Let's be careful.

I am saying that to you Mike. It appears to be different styles of handwriting.

MR. MACK: I think there is different handwriting here. I am asking whether your client recognizes any of the handwriting, Mr. Lombardi, on any of the documents.

MR. LOMBARDI: And you think you recognize John Vecchione's. Maybe indicate to Walt which of the writing

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appears to be his.

A. I would say the first page looks to be like his handwriting and that was written after.

Q. Let me specify. I'm looking for the writing which starts with the word -- I need a shop steward -- and runs through Northside structure near the bottom.

A. That would be John Vecchione's handwriting.

Q. Now, you recognize that as his?

A. Yes, from whatever correspondence like on a job. There ain't too much correspondence in writing. If there is it would be in numbers four foot three -- you know what I mean?

Q. So I guess what I'm asking you is what is the source of the 32-hour scaffold training, where did that request come from?

MR. MACK: It's your client's opinion that it looks look John Vecchione's handwriting but I'm asking a different question. I don't care whose

Page 106 Guerin

handwriting it is.

Q. What is the source if you know for the skill there described as 32-hour scaffold training?

MR. LOMBARDI: Do you understand? (Discussion off the record.)

Q. The date that would be of significance you added I will tell you when it is -- for the job at 32-hour scaffolding -- January 8, 2003.

MR. LOMBARDI: That's the referral date.

MR. MACK: Correct.

Q. That letter was considered the job referral and you see 32-hour scaffold training I need a shop steward with 32-hour.

A. I might have manipulated the out of work list to add that at that particular time but I did not take that particular class.

Q. Thank you. Where did the idea come from that 32-hour scaffold training would be a positive attribute to this job?

A. There were a couple of guys like John Corrigan and Joe Connelly and we talked and we always -- to stay in the same loop we might have

Page 107 Guerin

mentioned it to each other.

Q. That would be a good skill because it separates a lot of people out?

A. Correct.

Q. But were there any other skills in that category that you, John Corrigan and John Connelly thought would be helpful in that regard?

A. Well, I know there was the -- I took a 40-hour site safety class I did and that was a legitimate class that I took down -- site safety class.

Q. Took that at the carpenter's school?

A. Yes, I had mentioned it to these guys that I was using that for skills too.

Q. Were there any other skills that you and the two Johns felt would be helpful in getting jobs?

A. Not particularly no.

Q. Why did you not take the 32-hour scaffolding training?

A. Maybe I was -- I should have taken it but, you know, I had worked with scaffolding all my life. I broke into the business with Regional Scaffolding. I have well more than 32 hours

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already under my belt.

Q. I'm sure that's true.

A. I just don't have a certificate saying that I know the scaffolding business. The eight hour class should cover what I need to know on a certificate.

Q. I understand that. What I'm trying to figure out and you have explained one aspect -­why is John Vecchione writing down 32-hour scaffold training if you know on this request?

A. Like I said before this is the first time I've seen MG-8 and I had no idea that this guy was doing this. And then when I get here -­from the owner's son I didn't know -- he never showed me anything to this.

Q. Let me ask the question again. Did you suggest to anyone at Northside or Northberry, whatever they were calling themselves at the time, that 32-hour scaffolding would be a good skill to request?

MR. LOMBARDI: That's a different question so you are not asking it again.

MR. MACK: Okay.

A. Can you repeat the question?

Page 109 Guerin

Q. Sure, all right.

A. You got me all crazy now with the 32's.

Q. In other words I am trying to determine how if you know or have a reason to believe that this exhibit which I have shown you MG-8 has the words 32-hour scaffold training on it?

A. I could have told John this might get me the job if we put down 32-hour scaffold training. I might have said that to him.

Q. When you say you might in my world might is --

A. Okay, I did.

Q. Do you believe you did?

A. No, but I don't want to be hung up on one little aspect. I know it's important to you but it ain't important to me, you understand what I'm saying. Like I said I broke into the business in scaffolding with more than 32 hours. I just don't have a certificate to show it. I might have said to John why don't we do this to get that.

MR. LOMBARDI: But you don't recollect?

THE WITNESS: I can't remember.

Q. You might have and you might not,

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you're not sure?

A. Correct.

Q. Did you have any discussions -- let's leave the scaffolding aside for a moment -- I think I know what I need to know on that.

Did you have any other further conversations concerning how John or anybody from the Northside or Northberry could increase the likelihood that you would be their shop steward?

A. Say that again.

Q. All I'm asking you again is really I want to make sure I have picked up every suggestion or method that was used as far as you know about to assist or make more likely that you would be their shop steward on this job site.

A. Yes, I told him why don't we put the protection and wood framing down and that's what he did. He might have added the 32-hour after talking to Jerry.

Q. Or talking to you?

A. Or talking to me or anybody else.

Q. And all I'm entitled to is your best recollection. I don't want you to feel you have to make up or guess but I am --

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A. I don't remember talking to him about that now.

Q. About the scaffolding?

A. Exactly.

Q. But you do remember talking about the job.

A. About the job, not particulars about what I need to get the job.

Q. But you do remember the purpose of those discussions was to make it more likely that you would be their steward?

A. Correct.

Q. And the people who participated in those discussions or discussion were Jerry Philbin?

A. Correct.

Q. You?

A. Yes.

Q. John Vecchione?

A. Yes.

Q. Anyone else?

A. No.

Q. None of the Martinelli family?

A. Like I said no, no, no.

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Q. So that was just you three gentlemen?

A. That's correct.

Q. Now, you have told me about your irritation in missing the original call.

A. That is correct.

Q. And you called -- you called John I think it was.

A. That's right.

Q. And basically he changed the job?

A. Correct.

Q. Did it ever come to your attention that there had been any further inquiry or had been any further request for information about that job?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever learn that in fact there was a request to someone in the district council or at 608 to certify why the job had been cancelled?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever discussed this job in any way with John Greaney?

A. No, like I said before small circle with Jerry -- business was business and that was it.

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Q. But of course you don't know whether Jerry in your absence or without your knowledge talked to other people, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, how long were you on this Northside job?

A. One year.

Q. So this would have fit in the category of a job worth having?

A. Yes.

Q. Maybe I can simplify a whole series of questions that I would have had about your system of using hold calls. Were there any hold calls and if I over simplify you set me straight, you tell it the way it is, the way you remember it. But would it be fair to say you used your hold call privileges from time to time to make yourself available at a time in which you knew a job would be coming on that you wanted?

A. Correct.

Q. Were there any hold calls that you used that were really in a sense solely for personal purposes because you were unavailable?

A. Say that again.

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Q. All I'm trying to find out in my collection of hold calls was there one that was actually for the purpose that they were designed for because you were traveling or sick or something of that nature?

A. No.

Q. When you for instance as you did from time to time request a hold call for a long date and then shorten it to a date did that change the actual period, was that ever as a result of advice from a business agent?

A. That was advice to set -- there was no work, there was nothing decent coming up so sit tight, freeze your name and number until something better comes along and then unfreeze it when we will send the job in.

Q. Who is giving you that guidance?

A. Jerry Philbin.

Q. Anyone else give you that guidance?

A. Like I said before I dealt with Jerry and that was it. When he passed away now I'm dealing with Joey but in particulars business was business with Jerry and you don't stray.

Q. He was the person who you had the most

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confidence?

A. That's right.

Q. Now, when Jerry passed on did Joe Firth ever give you guidance about when to hold and when not to hold?

A. We don't have that kind of relationship, it's strictly business.

Q. Because I believe there are, you know, we're going to get to a job -- well, let's wait to we get to that job. Now, after this Northside job and I'm not going to waste your time with questions like was there any cash.

A. No, nothing.

Q. You realize that there is a policy which I believe to be in effect that when you record hours for a particular carpenter that carpenter is there for the hours recorded?

A. Correct.

Q. Is that your policy that you enforce?

A. That's true.

Q. Have there been and again I have asked this any situations let's say since 2000 in which you recorded hours for a carpenter who was not present for the time period that was listed? In

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other words a no-show or a person who worked very few hours yet you recorded them for a full workday?

A. Whoever was on the job was recorded on the job, was recorded that day, and that was it.

Q. And for the hours they worked?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, after the Northside job was there another job in which you received guidance or suggestions to increase the likelihood that you would be sent to a job site?

A. No, that was -- after that job.

Q. The Northside?

A. If I am not mistaken Walter Mack came to town.

Q. Walter Mack was around a long time.

A. You weren't around a long time with us. I was on unemployment from January through April and I worked with Difarma Concrete to August and I was unemployed again until this current job.

Q. Now, in the period that you were unemployed were you getting advice from any business agent about jobs coming up or knowing that a job was going to come up?

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A. I was unemployed for three months, did I get anything, no.

Q. I noticed that one of your hold calls is called in or faxed in from a structure tone.

A. I'd have to see it, could have been a one day job I went into. Nothing in particular it was probably, you know, the job was winding down, I was probably the fifth or sixth steward through the place already, you know what I mean.

Q. We just didn't find any structure tone benefits.

A. I didn't work -- they have a general contractor, the subcontractor, it was probably a day job if I am not mistaken.

Q. I just -‑

A. They don't hire carpenters. Like I said I was unemployed from January from that job to the Difarma job.

I might have -- you know, there was nothing in between. There was no work, nobody helped me get any work, I was on my own then. I had a lot of one day jobs.

I noticed that because there was nothing to sink my teeth into. I am out of work

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four months I can't afford to take a job for three weeks it's crazy. Then I'm going to go back on the list again. I'd rather wait out the days. On the tenth, eleventh day it's like playing Russian roulette, it is what it is.

Q. How do you lessen your chances -- in other words what can you do -- in other words a smart person who has connections how do you try to maximize that within your 11 days you're going to get a job that is a valuable one from your perspective?

A. Hopefully by then I went to a union meeting and talked to guys at the meeting or run into guys or I call guys. But on that tenth or eleventh day I am looking for a foreman because I can't be a steward. I just got to get a job so I grab a foreman see what's available if he can put me on.

Q. What are the techniques for a

well-informed highly competent carpenter who wants to be the shop steward on a longer job? What techniques do you use to try to, you know, figure out how to deal with a Russian roulette situation?

A. Freeze your name and work the system

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until you actually land a job. Nobody helped me out after January, you know, because they had a person -- a new sheriff in town. And I didn't want to be disrespectful.

I already went down the road with Armstrong and Convoy. I didn't want to end up in here today. So I did my time on the bench I didn't want to cause nobody grief but me and my family and that's the bottom line.

Q. Who is your family -- how many people do you need to support?

A. Me and my wife.

Q. Now, so what are the techniques that an individual needs to do in order in this day and age if the system is functioning the way -‑

A. Hook up with a company.

Q. Be a company person?

A. Forget about the out of work list. You're never going to make it, it ain't going to happen.

Q. What about though if you want to be a steward?

A. You got to play that game.

Q. Which is what?

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A. Catch and release, freeze and release, you know, you don't land it you got to go. Like I said you can't afford to sit on a list for four months and work a job for three weeks. The numbers don't add up.

Q. Because you go back on -‑

A. You go back to the bottom of the list and you got to wait another four months before your number comes up again.

Q. I think I understand but what do you --

A. You work the list like everybody else -- job jump, freeze your name, jump a job, work a while, get out, get back. You got to put food on the table. You go hat in hand to jobs, you got to grab a foreman, that's what you do, you got to do what you got to do.

Q. And when you say you grab a foreman you mean -‑

A. You talk to a guy, you know, I have worked with a lot of foreman, listen I got to get a job, I have to get my hours, my wife has mesothelioma. If I don't have my hours in I go crazy at these guys. And then they say let's see what we can do. But it really doesn't pan out, I

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play the game, catch and release.

Q. Is there any technique you can use that you know a decent job is coming down and you are moving your way down the list?

A. Today nobody talks to you.

Q. Why is that?

A. There's a new sheriff in town.

Q. But the sheriff is gone.

A. But you got to understand something. I want to respect your position. I am not going to go jeopardize -- these guys don't want to touch me.

Q. These guys being the business agents?

A. Exactly, they don't want to touch me. That's why I got to play that game. That's why I got to go hat in hand. This is what I got to do so I got lucky with this -- you want to know what this job is? This job is a fucking nightmare.

Q. Tell me about it. You tell me and don't hold back.

A. It's a nightmare. The contractor -‑

Q. Who is the contractor?

A. Gateway Acoustics. It's too small for this job.

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Q. The company?

A. The company it's a 45-story building it's going to be converted to condos. They're just not geared like RNJ, Prince, Woodworks. They want to get there but they are not there. They're not going to make it. They're not paying

benefits. I'm on top of this guy riding the guy all the time for our money, our benefits, it's crazy.

Q. Are you getting the respect or the consideration from the district council that you feel is appropriate?

A. Yeah, when I call -- but I can't keep burying the contractor because I can't let him go out of business either, you know what I mean. I got to carry him through this job but he also has to pay.

Q. How do you do that -- how do you do that balance?

A. I shut him down once already, you know, I kicked him and I figured he would have been like all right let me keep paying this guy but he just can't get the money from the owner. The owner doesn't pay him enough money. If the guy needs

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$100,000 to make the payroll the owner gives him 75, that's the kind of guy he's dealing with.

Q. What do you as shop steward, how do you keep what I think you're telling me the company in business so that it can do the work, maybe in time finish and pay all the benefits, but at the same time not get so far back?

A. I talked to Joey, I talked to the council. Where are we going to get this money from? I can't go abracadabra and say here's some cash for you to pay for our benefits. He has got to go to the owner, go to the super of the job, Newmark, you got to give this guy some money. He tells me he has already drawn the most money at that particular -‑

Q. Who was the owner?

A. The owner is Joe Moyna, the general contractor is Newmark, the super in charge is Pete Harrdecker.

Q. So the idea is to try to keep the balance that the job stay -‑

A. I can't let him go too far in the arrears of the benefits. Believe me I got 45 guys there you don't want to hear 45 guys bitching all

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day and production is down, morale is low, the checks start bouncing, it's a mess.

Q. How far in arrears are they on the benefits?

A. Right now used to be three now it's five.

Q. Has he ever been more than that?

A. He's been up to five weeks.

Q. And what's the likelihood that if they get thrown off the job because they don't maintain their -‑

A. Then 45 guys are out of their benefits.

Q. What's the likelihood another

contractor, another union contractor, would be called in to finish the job?

A. He will come in but he ain't going to hire any of those guys. Those guys are gone. He will bring his own company guys. That goes back to that scenario.

These guys are all wall and ceiling guys, association -- can't crack them. You only get one guy that's it, that's it.

Q. Okay, I think that's important to
understand. So in terms of this Gateway job where

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you are now which is the Downtown Athletic Club any action taken by you to help you get -- did you know that job was coming down?

A. No, no, believe me when I tell you none. You know where I live?

Q. I do know actually -- it's on your sheet.

A. I only like to go down to 42nd Street, you know what I mean. Now it's a two-hour trip instead of a one-hour trip. It would be a better job for a guy in Staten Island than it would be to a guy like me.

Q. I just have a couple of more. I think we are close. So what you are saying to me basically in the last year or slightly more you have had no help from any business agent -‑

A. No, not a one.

Q. To get a job?

A. No.

Q. Now, before you got this job there were a couple of situations that I see that you are using hold calls, you're on and you're off. Did you know the job was coming up then is that why you were using your hold calls?

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A. Listen I work a one-day job and I get the scenario and it ain't going to pan out. I put my name on the out of work list, I freeze my number, I play a craps shoot. I take a week off and try it again. It don't pan out same scenario that's what I do.

Q. Do you have -- and this is a question I should have asked before -- are you getting some information that there is a decent job so that therefore you should erase your hold calls so you have some chance of getting that job?

A. No.

Q. So let me ask you some questions that I said I would. First of all, let me talk about the incident that occurred on that Northberry or Northside structure job -- you know what I'm talking about.

A. Eddie.

Q. Tell me as far as you know what happened that day.

A. It was a Friday morning, it was freezing out and cold. So the elevator comes up, there are 30 carpenters on the platform. They all run in there. The operator said can you step

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outside I need a little room to run the car up. Eddie got belligerent, went wild, mother fucked this guy up 35 floors the whole way up. White boy cracked -- the whole scenario.

Q. Were you present on the car?

A. No, it was too crowded. He should have stepped off the car. He had to get upstairs for whatever reasons who knows but he wanted to be in the crew with the elevator because when you're on the elevator the ball breaking starts early in the morning. So he mother fucked this guy up the stairs, up the elevator, he comes back down to me he tells me.

Q. He is Eddie?

A. The operator.

He comes down and I said okay, listen I will go up and talk to the guy. So I didn't particularly go upstairs that day, I waited until Monday morning to talk to Eddie. I said Eddie what went on Friday? He said you know that guy wouldn't take me up, there was plenty of room, we had a few words. I said but you know Eddie you can't do that, you got to do the right thing and apologize to the guy and leave it at that. And I

Page 12 8 Guerin

didn't think it was going to get any further then that.

Well, that midday the operator got his partner and grabbed the engineer and then went upstairs to talk to Eddie. In the meantime when they get upstairs Eddie sees these guys coming to talk to him and he went wild. Carrying on, you know, stupid shit so -‑

Q. Did you see anything?

A. I didn't see nothing. So there was a bit of an argument and then a scrum, some pushing and shoving, one over the shoulder, one

underneath, Eddie pulls a knife -- then everything is broken up. They tell Eddie get off the job. Eddie goes down the stairs and I see him in the third floor I said what's going on he says I got to leave so he left.

Q. Was there any sign of injury or anything?

A. Nothing, no sign of injury at all. And then it was he went to the police department and called the hotline, called Maurine Leary up, Maurice Leary called me up and said what went on up there. I said it was a big to-do. Eddie had

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an argument with the guy Friday and on Monday I told him to apologize. The engineers went up, the operator went up there to talk to him, a bit of a scrum, a few wild roundhouses and the blade comes out. And he was like the blade? I said yeah, the blade. He said he never told me about a blade. I said, yeah, Eddie pulled a knife on the guy. Really? I said yeah, so I brought, you know, I said he went to the police. Well, did he tell the cops that and he said no.

Did he tell you that -- I am asking you now? Did Eddie tell you that he pulled a knife?

Q. I never talked to Eddie. I never talked to him personally. I have notes of what Mr. Leary told me.

A. In that particular incident, you know, well, you know, this guy is defending himself in one aspect but then he could be brought up on charges for attempted murder. So we had to diffuse the situation, squash it, and not let it get out of hand. So I brought the super down from Northberry, Tom Henry, he gave a statement to Maurice and as far as I know I don't know what happened after that.

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Q. Now, did you yourself personally see any part of what you just told me?

A. No.

Q. Were you present at any of the scrum or whatever happened?

A. No.

Q. Did it ever come to your attention that one of the engineers or the individuals who went to talk to Eddie which is always a situation that you know is in the eye of the beholder as to what's going on there was a carpenter?

A. No, from what they told me as soon as they got off the elevator this guy went wild.

Q. Eddie?

A. Eddie. Now I got 30 guys up there. I don't think it would be too smart for these three clowns to mess around because then it would have been a worse case scenario and we don't need that, correct.

Q. I'm not big on violence anywhere.

A. So the best thing to do was diffuse the situation, try to get it under wraps. We don't need the whole scenario getting blown out of proportion. I wish he would have mentioned he

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pulled a knife because then it could have given us a little more to go after this guy.

Q. This guy being Eddie?

A. No, the operator.

Q. Did you ever see the knife or did you ever have the knife described? In other words was it a carpenter's knife or was it a knife for protection?

A. It was a knife for protection.

Q. Did you ever see the knife?

A. A 007.

Q. Did you have any prior experience with Eddie before this incident occurred about his skills, level headedness, professionalism?

A. He was a little loud, you know, cocky, you know, self assured but, you know, what are you going to do. He was a good worker, knew what he was doing, he was a good guy.

Q. Well, I mean I can see both sides of the situation.

Did it ever come to your attention that one of the three individuals was an individual who was or had been a carpenter?

A. Yes.

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Q. Who was that person?

A. The engineer.

Q. Do you know what his last name was?

A. Anthony Carallo.

Q. Did you ever yourself interview or try to find out what his role was in this situation?

A. I know a little bit about the guys background.

Q. Tell me what you know about his background.

A. That he was a carpenter, he worked in the business down at the district council. He got asked to leave and he ended up working for the 14. That's all I knew but as far as the particulars go I didn't want to get into any investigation. I'm not a cop or a detective or anything so as far as it is like I said keep the situation calm because we need to get the guys up and down the elevator, you know what I mean.

Q. Right.

A. So that's what we did.

Q. Is there anything else about this incident in terms of what you heard or what others told you that you haven't mentioned to me tonight?

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A. Not particularly, no.

Q. In other words did you ever go back to Eddie and say Eddie I hear this is about a knife -- what's the story? Do you really want to go with the police or -‑

A. After that scenario we said to Eddie what really went on, he never said that he pulled a knife or nothing. He heard there was a group of guys there, you know, Tom Henry called around to get him a job and he did.

Q. Did he go to another job site?

A. He went to another job site.

Q. Now, did anyone ever tell you or did it ever come to your attention that at least at one time Eddie said that he was threatened about being thrown off the roof or thrown off the job site?

A. He did mention that to me but I find that highly unlikely because there was no talking to the guy. He was wild. Like I said these guys came off the elevator I had 30 guys up there, you understand. It would have been the other way around. Those three guys would have been tossed off the roof you understand. I had more guys than he needs for backup. He acted and carried on to

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get everybody's attention and he did. So at no time did anybody say we're going to throw you off the roof, you know what I mean. Scrum, pushing, shoving, over, under, nothing really landed on anybody.

Q. When it was the three individuals let's say interacting, whatever is the right verb, did any carpenters respond to help Eddie as far as you know?

A. All of them. He started carrying on, he got everybody's attention and we went to go back, that's what they did.

Q. Is there anything else about this incident that you know or think might be relevant in my assessing it whether I will assess it or not I think I probably will not.

A. No.

Q. Now, let me ask the question before I turn it over to other participants here. Usually they don't have a lot to ask but Mr. Lombardi is promised an hour or two of questions. Now, I would like to ask you a question.

Based upon your experience and views and recognize that even though I may not be around

Page 13 5 Guerin

when and I may be, you never know what happens in the world of the law, is what it boils down to. But if you were to speak to the Judge and assume the Judge or his clerk will read what you have to say, in your experience and in your judgment what needs to be done, what message would you give to him about what needs to be done for district council carpenters besides a request system?

A. A 50/50 would be a starting point. The associations -- I don't see how come they have to join an association when they are already in the union, you know what I mean.

Q. Say that again. You mean why should associations have special privileges?

A. Yes, exactly. If that was the case maybe then everybody should have special privileges, correct? Why single out certain groups that pay into a certain group and they get to control the lions share of the jobs?

Q. Let me just state that to make sure I have it right. What you're saying is why should association members who have to pay certain fees and things of that nature get the tremendous benefit of being able to request workers which

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allows them to control just about all carpenters on the site?

A. Correct.

Q. Is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. You are far better than anyone in this room based upon your experience -- how many years have you been a union carpenter?

A. Nineteen.

Q. Of all the time that's there if you were in fact and you do have an opportunity to recommend a course of action for the court what would you feel besides the 50/50 and the request system he ought to think about?

A. Well, I know we are kind of top heavy.

Q. What does that mean?

A. We have more agents then we have jobs. If we could consolidate our forces, regroup, come back as one individual city local we might be able to defend ourselves against a non-union onslaught that's killing us. And help these companies get more better guys by weeding out the guys that can't comprehend or tolerate the work.

Q. When you say that you're talking about

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people who do not have the skills and ability to work -- to do what is necessary to compete in the market place; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. I have always taken the view that is something the union can control.

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Any other topic or area that you think that the court should be interested in or should have some thoughts about?

A. Outside of the out of work list the 50/50 thing, the associations like I said, merge all the locals together, make it one local in the city, the five boroughs, weed out the top heavy end, and retrain and reclassify carpenters to be -- everybody should be a mechanic not just a guy in one aspect doing just drywall. He should be able to do drywall, ceiling, woodwork, cabinets, doors, concrete, finish, floors, whatever the case may be.

Q. What about as you did and it's harder to do now but what about skill classifications? How do you control or recommend or do you just insist that every carpenter have a certain

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fundamental skill set and make it easy for them to take other skills?

A. So that way they can always maintain their livelihood of working in the business. Like I went from the concrete to the drywall which I'm doing today and then after a little while I might go do scaffolding or like -- well, I can't do scaffolding without the 32-hour.

Q. Just use the eight-hour not the 32.

A. You know that way you get a well-rounded guy, he would be more effective on a job. If you have a single guy working for one company all the time he just knows that way, you understand?

Q. I do.

A. If he doesn't broaden his own horizon he can't see what life is outside of that company.

Q. What you're telling me or have told me before this is today in order to because of the way the out of work list works you have to find a company slot that you stay there otherwise you risk staying on a list for months at a time?

A. Exactly right.

MR. MACK: Let me turn to my

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colleagues here and start with Mr.

Lombardi because I know he's been itching to say things and make statements about whatever incompetencies he has perceived in my performance tonight. But beyond that what if anything would you like to add or subtract, sir?

MR. LOMBARDI: Beyond that nothing.

MR. MACK: Mr. Garcia?

MR. GARCIA: No questions.

MR. MACK: Ms. Wong?

MS. WONG: No thank you.

EXAMINATION BY

MR. SOBOCIENSKI:

Q. In the period of time after the Northside job and you said you were unemployed we can't distinguish by looking at the work referral history on these immediate or they're bypassed whether or not you are actually not getting the call.

A. You mean the dispatcher.

Q. Or are you refusing it because it's an immediate or it's an overtime job?

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A. No, no, no when you get called to an immediate dispatch job you either drop your drawers and book down to the job or it's just not really worth you getting that crazy to run all the way downtown. And when you get there it's a day job. Man, I broke my ass coming down here for one day, I ain't happy about that.

Q. And you're not able to identify that until you get there?

A. They don't tell you, they just tell you go to the job -- what is it, we can't tell you. They tell you they can't tell you. The out of work list don't tell you what kind of job it is or how long it's going to be. They don't get that information.

MR. MACK: They tell you the contractor and the address.

THE WITNESS: And that's it They don't tell you it's 15 floors or it's five boards. You don't know, it's Russian roulette again.

Q. So what you're saying then is you are receiving these calls but you're opting not to go and take them?

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A. Not all the time because like I said you look at the phone, you don't want to eat a day on your 11 days for a one-day job. You just don't want to expend -- that's expensive after a while. You get eight or nine days. You are like I ain't taking this call but you don't know what you're walking into.

Q. And in looking at your job you're on now the Gateway job which you were dispatched to on the 25th of October and on the 14th of October you had put yourself on hold calls from 10/14 to 10/26. But you elected to erase that on the 25th one day before it was actually expired and that was the day you got the job. You had no knowledge of this job?

A. No, believe me if I had knowledge of this job I would give it back. I'm telling you these guys shouldn't even be doing this job. Like I said it's out of the way for me. When you get desperate and hungry you just take what they give you. And I just left the shoe store, you know what the size is -- the shoe store is about the size of this room to that size.

Man, that's disheartening. I come from

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doing a 40-story building. My ego humbling is very good though it brings me back down to reality. But, you know, you walk in you're like -- so I go down to this job but before I went down to this job -- let me tell you what I did before I went down to that job. I stood at Times Square looking to grab a foreman and beg that guy I need a job I got to get my hours in, that's how bad it was.

All right, fuck it, I go down there. I walk in there, I'm like wow this ain't too bad. They're still doing demo, a little unsafe but let me see how it plays out. I go meet the General Contractor, Pete Harrdecker, I had recognized him from a few jobs uptown. I said okay he's a decent super. He's got a good head on his shoulders, it will be a decent job. I meet the contractors, young fellows like my myself. I said let me give him an opportunity where an opportunity is given. So I said let me stick this one out and do the right thing. And hopefully we could get this guy to be the next Prince or the next RNJ but it ain't panning out that way.

It just ain't got the capital because

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when you take on a job like that you need to float the payroll for at least six months and he can't do it -- just ain't got the -‑

BY MR. MACK:

Q. Was there a reason that you came off your hold call that day or so earlier?

A. It could have happened any day.

Q. Did somebody say to you Mike there's a job coming up you might want, you ought to make sure you're available or something like that?

A. No, I don't think, no.

Q. Because from our point of view being we are ignorant we see you want to go then you come in you come back on the list before that and right away you go out. So from our point of view we're saying gee isn't it likely that somebody gave you heads up. There's a job you might want, could want, is good, give it a shot and be available.

A. Usually at the end of week the better jobs go in because that's the way the scenario works. Like most companies want to start the job on a Thursday and Friday get a feel for it before they gear up on a Monday so you take that. Like I said a crap shoot. Somebody is going to send in a

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decent job on a Friday and they usually pan out to be better than most.

Q. Assume for the moment just a

hypothetical question but that you did not erase your hold calls. Would you have put your hold calls -- it would have expired in two days -­would you have put in your hold calls again?

A. If I had a day left no I couldn't. I was down on my last -- that's why I was at Times Square looking for a guy that I knew who could possibly put me off to get me through the holidays, you know.

BY MR. SOBOCIENSKI:

Q. That document that is in front of you now -- MG-3 you see the company down that contributed benefits by initials?

A. K-A-F-C-I.

Q. Do you know who that is?

A. Finbar O'Neal I know the guy, I said I know the guy, I work for them.

Q. And how long had you worked for him -­we only started benefits at that time and you worked for them a considerable time prior to that?

A. I did the Gap and I did the Sheraton

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the Executive Sheraton.

BY MR. MACK:

Q. And at no time were you offered cash on either of those jobs?

A. No.

Q. Was there a job that you were offered cash by Finbar O'Neal or Finbar O'Neal & Company?

A. At '97 -- 1997.

Q. Just tell me what that is?

A. The Gap on 15th Street and Fifth Avenue.

Q. Who offered you cash there?

A. Malicy O'Neal.

Q. What was that for -- how long a job was that?

A. That was three months, four months.

Q. And you did not accept the cash?

A. I did accept the cash.

Q. Were you the shop steward on the job?

A. Yes.

Q. And the cash that you received what did you provide if any service for that cash?

A. A couple of Irish guys I let work on the job.

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Q. Do you know those Irish guys by name?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever done that before?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever done that since?

A. No.

Q. I'm basically taking -- I have some interest in Finbar O'Neal and Malicay O'Neal or that family because they're still around in the industry is what it boils down to. Have you done any work for either of them since that time?

A. Only the Sheraton Center and that was the last time.

Q. Did you receive any cash on that job?

A. No.

Q. Were you offered cash on that job?

A. No.

Q. I'm just not going to go back to '97 to raise those issues but I appreciate you being honest about the situation.

MR. MACK: Anything further you want to add?

MR. SOBOCIENSKI: No.

Q. Are there companies today not that you

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work for but that are companies that you know from your contacts and experience that I should look at or my successor should look at for violations of the collective bargaining agreement? Do you understand what I am asking?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And if you were advising me and you could choose not to you could say Mr. Mack not for nothing I don't know, I'm not going to get into that. But I would say to you if you told me that if there are companies out there that deserve the scrutiny of the independent investigator I would ask you whether anonymously or not to call the hotline and provide that information if you don't want to tell me on the record.

A. Mr. Mack, I would prefer to mind my own business in that case because I really couldn't tell you the truth if I knew the truth, you understand. I don't want to implicate somebody into something that turns out to be misleading.

Q. But recognize this and again it's an invitation it's up to you. Our ability to find the cash companies that we have and hold them accountable and I believe strongly that a company

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working in the industry that's a signatory should pay the carpenters appropriate wage and you do too because you don't permit it to occur. Since '97 you have not permitted a contractor not to follow the collective bargaining agreement.

A. Correct.

Q. So I share that view and so what I'm asking you to do or consider doing, you can do it anonymously or otherwise, is find a way to make sure that either myself or people who succeed my position can go out to those companies who are abusing those union carpenters.

A. I could do that anonymously.

Q. Anonymous is fine. Anything that you would like to say or any comment you would like to make. I know you have had more pleasant evenings but hopefully it hasn't been as bad as you anticipated.

A. Thank you very much for your time and patience, I appreciate your thoroughness.

Q. I appreciate your candor.

A. I am up at 4:00 in the morning, I have a long ride home, I would like to go home. MR. MACK: Thank you, thank you

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for your help tonight. Thank you for being here.

(Time ended: 8:16 p.m.)

MIKE GUERIN

Subscribed and sworn to before me this___day of _________ 2005.

Page 150

CERTIFICATE

STATE OF NEW YORK    )

: ss.

COUNTY OF NEW YORK )

I, Meredith Stoeckel, a Notary Public within and for the State of New York, do hereby certify:

That MIKE GUERIN, the witness whose deposition is hereinbefore set forth, was duly sworn by me and that such deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the witness.

I further certify that I am not related to any of the parties to this action by blood or marriage, and that I am in no way interested in the outcome of this matter.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this 20th day of June, 2005.

MEREDITH STOECKEL

Page 151

WITNESS

MIKE GUERIN

EXAMINATION BY MR. MACK

MR. SOBOCIENSKI

PAGE

4, 30, 143, 145 139, 144

WITNESS ERRATA SHEET

NAME OF CASE: United States of America

v. District Council of New York City

DATE OF DEPOSITION: 6/8/05

NAME OF WITNESS: Guerin, Mike

Reason codes:

1.To clarify the record.

2. To conform to the facts.

3. To correct transcription errors.

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MIKE GUERIN