UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED BROTHERHOOD
OF CARPENTERS AND JOINERS OF AMERICA, et. al.,

INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATOR DEPOSITION

INTERVIEW OF MIKE GUERIN New York, New York Wednesday, June 8, 2005

Reported by:

Meredith Stoeckel JOB NO. 4115

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MR. MACK: I am going to go through all your rights and remedies and any questions that occur to you you feel free to raise. And so as I'm sure you know I am the independent investigator for whatever time remains appointed by the Judge -- Judge Haight. And I am an agent of the court and I function under an order and stipulation which is a public document.

And I know from the past Mr. Lombardi has a copy of and you may have read it or not. If you want a copy you as any carpenter can have it. And in essence it imposes certain obligations upon me and also limits my authority. And just to summarize I am in power to gather facts and write reports but I have no disciplinary authority of any kind. I can make recommendations but in essence the Judge is my boss and he determines what I do and what authority I have. And as I know you know from our past discussions the Judge has agreed with the district council's position that my

service as independent investigator terminates.

However, the Judge issued an order which basically said I should continue in my job until he appoints a successor which at least as I know as of yesterday, because I was with the Judge yesterday, basically has not happened as yet. And knowing the district council as I do they are doing their very best to get me replaced but they have not been successful so far. And I leave that to the parties the government and the district council to resolve that and when that happens I will no longer have that title.

However, I still have a number of duties as to assist my successor and in doing so whatever happens I can't predict I don't know who that will be. I don't know what their position will be. But the reason I say that is that my authority continues and I'm not bashful at all about going back to the Judge should a question arise as to what I

should be doing or not. And that doesn't happen infrequently and he is not at all bashful about telling me what he expects me to do. So I believe I am acting consistently with what he expects me to do today.

And as such what I have done is when a particular individual has come up as a subject of the hotline calls I frequently decide and I have deposed or questioned many individuals in your position as shop steward as to which complaints or issues have been filed.

Now, let me be the first to state that virtually all of the complaints that mention you are anonymous. And in my viewpoint and I certainly know the district council's perspective on anonymous complaints but that is an issue for the court and I happen to believe in hotlines.

And there are people who you know who you would never think would call the hotline who call the hotline whom I know by name who asked to be anonymous for

whatever reasons of their own. And I don't probe that, that's their choice whether they are anonymous or not.

So then I conduct my own evaluation to determine whether or not I think it's important for me to talk to that particular individual because I think I could learn something that could be of value in my examination. And that's why you are here today, that's what it boils down to.

I know it may not be the most pleasant place to be after a hard days work. I will try to be efficient and go about my duties in a way. And I will be the first to say that what is not at issue here is whether you are a good shop steward or a good union person or you do your job well, and whether you are an honorable human being and whether you take your union responsibilities. Those are not issues that I am probing into. I assume all of those things and I know from past experience and interaction with your peers and friends and maybe enemies

that you are an excellent shop steward. So I don't want you to think that the reason you are here is because I think you lack skills or knowledge as a shop steward.

What is at issue is how certain things that may have occurred on a job or certain methodologies which resulted in you being assigned to particular jobs at particular times. And you are among about 30 individuals, I think is the last number, around 30 people who are shop stewards who have been shop stewards or have shop steward skills who have come in to describe and explain what has happened, how certain things happen, all right.

I would also say that I write reports but whether or not anybody ever does anything about them is certainly a question in my mind, all right. And so I can't predict.

And I think the most important thing I will say to you tonight is that you will be under oath in a few moments

is listen to the question and answer it truthfully and completely. And the only real way that you and I can have an antagonistic position is if you lie to me. And some people have questioned, you know, why I refer -- I referred a couple of shop stewards for criminal prosecution, I'm referring other people for obstruction of justice from time to time, I actually have another criminal referral under way.

My view is for the most part whatever things happen are for the others to resolve and if it can be resolved fairly to the carpenter's union by the payment of money meaning if back benefits are to be paid and cash situations and what have you I don't look to put people in jail. I have had that job in my day and, you know, my own feeling is virtually any dispute as to wage and proper benefit and what have you should be able to be resolved by financial sanction or some other sanction not by sending someone to jail.

Where I differ on that is if somebody comes in and I ask him a question and they lie to me under oath and mislead me. And the people I have referred in general have been people who have come in, heard what I am saying now, seen a video tape or something, or know what the evidence is and then choose to intentionally deceive me or lie to me. And those people I do make a criminal reference on. But again I am not a prosecutor, I have been a prosecutor, I am not a defense lawyer, you have a fine defense lawyer at your side. So basically I'm a fact gatherer.

So the best advice anybody could give you including me is when you are under oath as you will be in a few moments listen to the question tell me the truth. My own view is that there are many things that have happened and happened in the past, may have been different situations that have occurred.

I have written a very strong report about the request system but the

district council has taken the view that that was a legitimate change and I certainly am not going to predict the Judge as to whether he is going to agree with that or not or as to whether he will ever decide. So I just want to reiterate the importance of telling me the way it is and direct. I have had shop stewards, I think I have even had shop stewards represented by Mr. Lombardi, who have simply said yes, I was told to do this or I did that or that's what everybody did at the time and it may not have been right. My feeling is it's far better to be truthful than give me a story that is not accurate.

I will tell you in the two years plus I am not a person of coincidences and I have learned a lot. There's a lot more I have to learn but in a sum it's best just to be direct and say this is what I did, this is what happened and that's it. You will be far better off than trying to tell me that something happened that I know didn't happen or

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couldn't have happened or is unlikely to happen. So is that reasonably clear? THE WITNESS: Yes.

MR. MACK: Now, because I am an agent of the court I would also tell you that even if you don't lie to me but you send me down something which you know is untrue or unlikely or in essence mislead me or deceive me you are in a sense misleading or deceiving Judge Haight whose clerk or himself will read this transcript. So basically because I am an agent of the court, as long as I am, if you try to deceive me that can be considered an obstruction of justice which basically means that, hey, I knew I was speaking to the Judge through his agent Walter Mack and rather than telling him straight what really happened here I made up some BS story to overcome what it is. And if the Judge agrees or a prosecutor agrees it is also a federal crime and can result in conviction and incarceration.

But the simple lesson is this is

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not a Grand Jury, you're not being investigated for criminal violations. You are here because there had been questions raised about certain of your assignments and I'm trying to figure out what were the methods and what is actually happening out there that affects the job referral rules. And is it the way it should be and should it be different or should it stay the same. Is the way it's functioning the way it should stay.

I am going to report the facts as I find them but others are going to decide and the district council who is ably represented here today will have their position before the Judge and the government who is represented here as well may have their position. And believe me I will never predict what Judge Haight will do or say. So in the simplest form it's important to listen, answer truthfully and get this evening over with and everybody will move on. And I will be long gone before anybody

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decides what is to happen.

Now, there are a number of things that I need to talk to you about which every witness has. And by the way there's nothing I am saying to you that I haven't said to every witness who has been here. You are not being singled out for a harsher or starker or different -­the concepts are all the same for everybody. And I go through this long spiel because I know the Judge wants me to ensure that every carpenter and every witness understands the stakes and the importance of being truthful and direct.

Should I ask a question tonight in which you feel could personally incriminate you you have the right as any witness in court would have to take the fifth amendment. And what that means basically is, hey, it's a possibility here that this could incriminate me personally. I'm not going to ask you a question like this but if I say have you ever something like -- have you ever smoked marijuana on the job and I'm

picking this solely out of the air -- I'm not going to ask you a question anything like that -- but should I ask a question and you say gee whiz, I know smoking marijuana is a crime. The Supreme Court just decided this week that even under states that permit it the Feds can prosecute it you have a right to say I respectfully refuse to answer that question because it might incriminate me. Every witness gets this warning.

My suggestion is Mr. Lombardi is certainly a well-informed individual. If I ask a question that you think could involve that you should say I would like to talk to Mr. Lombardi and go outside the room and discuss it with him and decide whether it's worthwhile.

Mr. Lombardi has had clients who assert the fifth and the district council has yet to develop a policy which in my view deals with that subject in a clear fashion so I can't predict what the district council will do. They certainly haven't done what I thought they should

do but that's for them to deal with.

But the point remains in this setting tonight you have the right to assert the fifth to any question which you believe you should and that's why you have a lawyer with you and I'm glad you have a lawyer with you. Mr. Lombardi I am sure is excellent and has proven his excellence in deciding whether that's a prudent thing for you to do or not to do. And I would encourage you to listen to his advice and decide whether you wish to assert it.

From my perspective I don't think I am going to ask any question which you will feel that need but it's not what I think it's what you think that counts. Do you understand what I have just said?

MR. MACK: Finally, Mr. Lombardi at least I believe as many of his peers and etcetera who have appeared for carpenters from time to time may in fact have a portion or a significant portion of his fees paid by the district council.

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I can tell that that is not an unusual subject, right?

THE WITNESS: No way I could afford a lawyer.

MR. MACK: So let me tell you -­let me try to explain to you the significance of that.

MR. LOMBARDI: I will state for the record exactly what it is. The district council pays my fee for representing -‑

MR. MACK: Your entire fee?

MR. LOMBARDI: For representing Mr. Guerin or anybody else for this deposition.

MR. MACK: So that having been said let me tell you why I as an agent of the court need to talk to you about this subject which I do in every case.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

MR. MACK: His job here today even though his fee is paid by the district council is to represent you Michael Guerin and you alone. And basically some of my questions could in fact expose the

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district council to criticism or at least question. So the way the law looks at it Mr. Lombardi sits at your side with his fee paid by some other party who may have an interest that you don't talk about certain subjects which could be critical of the organization that's paying him.

In other words if -- and I will give a hypothetical -- if some representative of the district council said to you, hey Mike, when you come and talk to that bozo Mack one way or the other basically don't tell him this. Or if you need to blame somebody blame this person but don't blame that person.

Now, if somebody was stupid enough to say that, well, that's a crime, that's a federal crime talking to a witness telling him what to say knowing it's not the truth -- that's one issue. But the issue I am talking to you about today is no matter what the district council tells you to do or not to do the way the law looks at it is it's Michael Guerin whose got the obligation to tell the truth.

And Mr. Lombardi sits at your side professionally and ethically obliged to say to you you have to tell the truth even if it hurts the people who are paying my fee. And if he doesn't do that he has breached his professional obligation and himself could run into difficulties not only from the bar associations but also in practice. Because he knows, and I'm not in any way thinking he would do this, but there have been attorneys that I have prosecuted who have done this in cases where their fees are paid by one person and they basically tell the other person that they are sitting beside in the courtroom do this do that. And even though they know it's not the truth or even though they know it's not what should happen those people often or unoften occasionally get prosecuted and the often get disbarred for doing that.

Now, I have great respect for Mr. Lombardi and so I have not moved to disqualify any lawyer who has sat and

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been paid by the district council. I don't intend to now or even think about it because you have the right as the witness to select any attorney you wish to represent you. But I'm telling you that I need to ask Mr. Lombardi and he understands this and that he feels he has no problem in representing you. And then I'm going to say to you are you prepared knowing of this potential conflict to recognize that your obligation whether it helps the district council or hurts the district council is to tell the truth to me and through me to the Judge.

So let me ask Mr. Lombardi having heard that before but I just want to make certain that you have thought about it and you feel that you can proceed given that fee arrangement and represent Mr. Guerin without conflict?

MR. LOMBARDI: Yes, I can and that's the fee arrangement that has been in place for some time which I think the --

MR. MACK: I know that but I raise

this conflict warning every time -

­MR. LOMBARDI: First time you thought to ask me so thank you.

MR. MACK: No, I usually ask or you usually say but if I haven't maybe I should revisit all the --

MR. LOMBARDI: No, I am unaware of any apparent or potential conflict of interest that would prevent me from representing Mr. Guerin in this deposition.

MR. MACK: And obviously should something happen during today that changes that you should tell me so we can get other counsel for Mr. Guerin if that's necessary.

Mr. Guerin, let me just tell you why this could be of importance to you. Generally the courts feel once you are informed of a potential conflict that you have the ability to choose and decide to proceed. And my guess is that you will tell me in a few moments that you're glad and privileged to have Mr. Lombardi at your side and that's fine and I think you

are. I mean Mr. Lombardi is certainly capable and competent and will do a good job for you.

But what you should understand is if some day down the road you give me an answer tonight which is untruthful and somebody figures it out and that untruth basically protects the district council, you say something that should have been said in truth that would have been critical but you don't say it for some reason, all right -- if you went in and said gee, it's unfair for me to be charged because I had the district council lawyer sitting at my side what do you expect me, how do you expect me to tell the truth about the district council when I have the district council paying the fees of the handsome gentleman sitting to your right.

If you made that argument as a defense, and I am talking about Mr. Garcia, the point is that defense would not be availing to you because they go back to this very few moments here. They

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will say listen Mr. Guerin Mack did his very best to point out to you that just because Mr. Lombardi's fees were being paid by the district council you still have to tell the truth whether it helps or hurts the district council, all right.

And I have dealt with that in one of my earlier lives and I realize courts will hold you, you would not have that defense. You don't have that defense today, you wouldn't have it in the future. But I don't, you know, my feeling is this -- this is not a difficult concept, you tell the truth. If it hurts the district council Mr. Lombardi is not going to try to persuade you not to say it. If he did he would be breaching his obligation. And if you did it and didn't tell the truth you would still be chargeable for perjury or obstruction.

So let me ask you the question. Are you prepared to proceed with Mr. Lombardi today?

THE WITNESS: Yes, I am.

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MR. MACK: Okay, fine. I think that just about does it. Just let me make sure if there is anything else. Obviously any question that you don't understand just say I don't know what you're asking me, basically rephrase it again or something like that.

My job and the Judge would be very harsh on me if I try to trick you or deceive you or do something which he thought is unfair. He is a very fair man and I try to emulate his direction to me to ask simple questions and get the answers and move on. But if anything isn't clear then you just say I don't understand it.

Any time you want to leave and discuss any question with Mr. Lombardi all you have to do is ask and you will be excused and given whatever time. We take breaks especially if the room is going to heat up here every 45 minutes, 50 minutes depending on how our reporter is holding up on the situation. She seems to be doing fine so far. She is the hardest

working person in here and basically we try to give her time to recover from having to deal with us. Any time you need to take a break or need some more water we will do that.

I will try to proceed with expedition but it is a detailed presentation going over some period of time. I have a series of questions so we will be here for a little while. We will have probably a least two or three sessions. When I say sessions I mean breaks and then we continue. So I am going to try to be efficient and get you out of here. I know you had a hard day and probably worked harder than anyone here in the room and I will try to respect that and make use of your time.

Mr. Lombardi is your counsel. He will have an opportunity to say object, raise questions, and what have you and I'm going to give him in a few minutes an opportunity to say anything he wishes to say. Mr. Garcia is here. He is the handsome gentleman I was discussing

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remind me that I forgot something to ask and he may ask a question from time to time. And he is the individual who basically oversees our investigation,. gathers facts, and talks to a lot of people from time to time. People that may surprise you as to who calls and who doesn't call is what it boils down to. And so he is here and that's the situation.

I will be asking most of the questions. And I will ask you just so you know about it some time before we end tonight other than being upset that you had to be brought in here and asked these questions which I know about and I understand, believe me I do, what I think is appropriate and I try to do it professionally and I don't take remarks personally one or the other. A lot of people don't enjoy coming in to speak to me and I can understand why not but that's neither here nor there.

I am going to ask you because I do and I have said that I respect you as a

I ask you before we leave tonight to seize the moment which I am giving you to speak directly through me to the Judge about what needs to be done to make life better for union carpenters today in the city. So that question will come and it will come near the end and I urge you to speak your mind and speak what you think needs to be done perhaps to improve things.

And I'm actually going to ask you a question right up front about the request system and see where you come out on that because it's a question I ask every shop steward and that comes pretty early on is what it boils down to.

I think I have been through everything that the Judge requires me to tell you about what's happening tonight and what's going on.

First question, do you have any questions for me? Anything you would like to say or ask before I go around the room here?

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MR. MACK: Anything you would like to add or subtract or state here before we start tonight?

MR. LOMBARDI: No.

MR. MACK: Mr. Garcia?

MR. GARCIA: No, Mr. Mack.

MR. MACK: Ms. Wong?

MS. WONG: No thank you.

MR. MACK? Mr. Sobocienski?

MR. SOBOCIENSKI: No.

MR. MACK: Great. What I ask is that we put the witness under oath.

MIKE G U E R I N, called as a witness, having been duly sworn by a Notary Public, was examined and testified as follows:

EXAMINATION BY

MR. MACK:

Q. Please state your name for the record.

A. Mike Guerin.

Q. Mr. Guerin, forgive me if I have called you and not pronounced your name correctly. I will try to do better in the future. One of the things -- I will go through the routine here and just sort of tell you what we will be doing.

Which is I have collected as I do for every person

in your position a number of exhibits. And I don't know whether Mr. Lombardi has secured that information for you beforehand but I'm going to give you now a number of exhibits which basically are a roadmap to what will happen tonight is what it boils down to and that includes your benefit fund remittances.

In other words when a contractor pays into the benefit funds for you there's a record of every payment that comes in. I'm also going to be giving you your job referral history which goes through this computer printout. It goes through every interaction you've had with the district council job referral list. There are other exhibits that will come up from time to time that I have questions about.

I did not pick you at random. I don't want you to think we sit here and throw darts on the wall and let's bring in Mr. Guerin. You have been the subject of a number of complaints basically dealing -- and the general statement is -- how does Mike Guerin get all these great jobs and we are sitting out there without any. That is the gist of what they are. And I have had, you

know, virtually that's true of 80 to 90 percent of the shop stewards I bring in.

And virtually every one of them as you know I think indicated you know certain techniques they had or certain things that happened or whatever helped and what have you. What we do is go through and take a look at things that occur. You know, job skills being added, jobs being deleted, hold calls going on, going off, immediate dispatches, all kinds of little indicia.

Now, some shop stewards say that's just coincidence Mr. Mack. I reject the coincidence. I have great respect for the intelligence of carpenters and their advisers in terms of how to deal with the job referral list is what it boils down to. So I go back and I look and one of the things that frequently or not so frequently anymore but some carpenters say just because I received benefits on a particular day doesn't mean that the employer doesn't report him late or report him for a time different than is on the benefit record.

I will tell you then any situation where you think you have a legitimate complaint

that you weren't working at the time I will subpoena the company for their own employment records and I'm not afraid to do that. What I would ask you is that in your heart of hearts if you know you were working at the time you save everybody a lot of trouble by my not doing so. And in the one situation when that was done, you know, if I was really a tough son of a gun I would have said to the lawyer your client -- it wasn't a failure of recollection he was just thinking I wasn't going to get the records because in every situation he was working when the reports came in.

And so in my old days as a prosecutor I would have said the guy he recalled he was just telling me he didn't recall but, you know, so if you think legitimately a contractor has

misreported your benefit remittances I will get any record necessary to probe that. I don't want you to think I'm denying you an opportunity to challenge anything but if you know that you were likely working at the time what I would ask you to do is not put everybody through that exercise, fair enough?

A. Fair enough.

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MR. LOMBARDI: Do you understand what he is saying?

THE WITNESS: I have done it.

MR. LOMBARDI: There's no question yet.

Q. Having said all that I am going to give you certain exhibits. The fact that it has MG and a number on it doesn't mean anything other than it tells me it's likely an exhibit in Mike Guerin's deposition. The numbers mean nothing -- just a way to keep track. So let me show you what has been marked as MG-1 and just ask you if that is a copy of the notice which obliged you to come visit with me sooner or later?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you will notice that in there I have asked for records concerning your skill certification. And are there any records other than what you have provided me here because in the quick look through them -‑

A. No, I don't think there's a skills -- I mean skills of being a carpenter or, you know, what we do for a living.

Q. I understand that and basically what

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many carpenters bring in to me is like an ID card or a certificate from the school or something of that nature. And you know my view is if I think it becomes relevant because there are some times on your job referral you will see a skill goes on at one time and it goes off and then it comes back on again.

I am going to start from the proposition that you're entitled to whatever skills you put on and that you're not putting a skill on that you don't deserve. And believe it or not there have been shop stewards who have put skills on that they didn't deserve and you know that has been uncovered. It doesn't make them look as their most professional, put it that way, but I'm going to start with the proposition that when you add a skill you are entitled to add that skill for whatever schooling has been necessary.

For instance there's a 32-hour scaffolding skill that I am going to be talking to you about. And one of the things I was going to look for tonight is when you went and took that course is what it boils down to. So that's a question that's coming because it -- did you take

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a 32-hour scaffolding course at the district council?

A. No.

Q. So that's one of the reasons I would have liked to have seen that. But you have given me an honest answer and if I get to a skill, because I trust you Mr. Guerin, I start with the proposition you're an honest man and you may not be happy to be here but you're not going to compound the difficulty by lying to me which would be a mistake.

If I talk about a skill which you know you're not entitled to have just tell me direct up because you're far better off demonstrating to me and the court you are an honest and direct human being and you're not going to play games with anybody. Eventually the truth always comes out, that has been my experience. Fair enough?

A. Fair enough.

Q. So this being said what I am going to do is give you the exhibits that you can refer to as we go through the situation, all right. And I am going to have one for everybody here I think, I hope. I am going to give you what is marked as

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MG-3 and this is a record of the benefit remittance. Would you mind you and Mr. Lombardi sharing?

MR. LOMBARDI: It's easier that way.

Q. I'm going to give you also MG-5 which is what's maintained. These are the records of the hold calls that have come in and if you guys could share that would be -- Mr. Garcia and Ms. Wong and Mr. Sobocienski if you wish. And if you wish you can take some time to review what I am giving to you before we proceed if you would like to do so.

And I'm going to give you MG-2 which is a record of the job referral computer printout as to you. I'm giving that also to my colleagues here. What I think I will do is once I give these out I'm going to take a five minute break to allow you to familiarize yourself with what I have given you because there's a lot of data being communicated here. I'm going to also give you MG-7 which is basically a record of the dispatches that have basically handwritten directions about them.

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And finally last but not least because this is going to be one of my first questions at least this is what has been furnished to us by the district council of the charges that at one time were presented to you that's what was given to us as a record of what you were charged with way back.

And I know you have described already your perception of what happened there and again I reiterate I have no authority to charge anybody with anything so I don't want you to feel that I'm going to reiterate. The district council is the only one that has the authority to charge. I have a right though to raise questions about what the charges were and what the results were. But I have no authority, you know, to charge and I won't to be perfectly honest because I have always said I'm evaluating the district council's disciplinary system based upon what they do. I have no authority to do it, fair enough?

A. Fair enough.

Q. So what I would like to do is take five minutes and allow Mr. Lombardi and Mr. Guerin to just familiarize yourself with what I have given

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you. We are just going to go through them and you will need to be -- and I will ask you to look at this, what does that mean and you should at least have some idea what I am talking about and let me say this. I'm going to go slowly and one of the things that I think is important -- for instance, there are little idiosyncrasies Mr. Lombardi is familiar with although he may have forgotten them since he hasn't been here in some time.

For instance, the clock for the job referral system is on California time so basically the time that is being demonstrated you have got to add three hours to know what is New York time, all right?

A. Excuse me, this is the out of work list referral system? And this is on California time?

Q. Yes, it is.

A. I got the same.

Q. That you brought as well -‑

A. I brought the same -‑

Q. So I have done my level best to provide everything the district council has so that we are all on the same playing field here in terms of understanding what's there. The only idiosyncrasy

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is that timing and some of the entries you may not understand.

So why don't we take five minutes or seven minutes just to see what you have and then we will get started.

(Recess taken.)

(Discussion off the record.)

Q. We have had a little discussion that I want to make sure that my decision as independent counsel independent investigator is clear with respect to potential discipline of Mr. Guerin based upon anything that comes out tonight.

What I have said is that I have strong criticisms and I have had for many months maybe even years of the district council's disciplinary system because to me it is not transparent, it's not clear to the carpenters. It's not uniformly enforced and it is not something that most carpenters understand or know about or can rely upon or have confidence in.

And what is the most telling thing is almost any discipline can be appealed to the general convention which could occur every four years. And the sanctions imposed are such that

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they would be stayed or not in effect and I have found numerous cases when discipline has in fact been imposed and the district council never did anything about it. They didn't tell the carpenter, they didn't suspend the privileges. I have said very clearly to the director of operations and council that I felt significant work needed to be done to make the disciplinary system functionable and useful to the district council and I am saying it to you tonight. So because of my lack of respect for the disciplinary system as I understand it although I will say in fairness to the district council that they are seeking to improve it and it is evolving and starting to gain some of the attributes necessary for a good disciplinary system, one that can be relied upon and that the union members know.

I am not going to make a recommendation for you or for any other carpenter on dealing with riding the list let's say that way. I don't have enough confidence that the result is one that I can predict and is fair. And I say that to you tonight I am not going to recommend it. I can not

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predict what the district council is going to do with what they learn tonight or what has happened in the past. Those questions are questions for counsel and the district council to answer themselves.

So the only thing, and I will reiterate this, is I will definitely recommend to the Judge and to a prosecutor if you lie to me that you be prosecuted for perjury and obstruction of justice. I accept without question your commitment to tell me the truth tonight and that's the way I am going to proceed. So that is a summary of what I have just said and that hopefully addresses your concern. And if there's anything you would like to further ask, Mr. Guerin, or you want to say I think that's a recapitulation of what we said before we went on the record, fair enough?

A. Yes.

Q. You don't have to say anything but my position on that has been made clear to the director of operations for a long time and I would say this. When I learned that waivers were given to many people initially based upon a lot of efforts and a lot of people were riding the list

Page 43 Guerin

routinely or regularly or more than once I expressed what I felt was displeasure. There were people in the same group one who had ridden the list for the first time, just did it once, and there were people who had ridden the list numerous times and they got exactly the same results. That just didn't seem fair to me.

That was my view then and it is my view now. It didn't make any difference to the district council and they continued to do what they felt was appropriate and that's what they should do run their own union. And if in fact they change the disciplinary system I think they should and if I were around a little bit longer I would write a pretty direct report about what I thought about the disciplinary system and that could be a reason I will not be around. So maybe they will find someone who has more positive things to say about it but I wouldn't. Clear enough?

A. Clear enough.

MR. MACK: Anything else to be said, Mr. Lombardi?

MR. LOMBARDI: Nothing.

Page 44 Guerin

MR. MACK: Mr. Garcia?

MR. GARCIA: No.

Q. Let's proceed here. Now, let's turn right to what has been marked as Exhibit MG-4. And this is what has been furnished to me as a collection of the various charges that were at least presented to you and I don't need to go through them but let me ask this.

Does this appear to be the full collection of charges that you received copies of?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, in your own words and whatever help you need from Mr. Lombardi tell me what was the result of these charges?

A. Of these charges?

Q. Yes.

A. I agreed -- I admitted that I did ride the list and I signed the waiver basically giving me amnesty from these so-called charges or the slap of discipline and promised to never do it again and I haven't.

Q. Let me just go over this. Do you as we are here today in each one of these they refer to specific times and there's one hold call charge as

Page 45 Guerin

well. I can point that out to you where basically you say you were working at a time you placed a hold call in. Do you remember that?

A. Probably on more than one occasion I have done that.

Q. What I am asking here is did you in fact ride the list and be working when you put the hold call in as these charges are? In other words I want to make certain you're not telling me, hey, the only reason I plead guilty here was because I was going to get a good result and they are not true and I want to challenge them.

A. No, these are true. I worked and I put my name on the out of work list. I continued to work knowing that after I put my name on the out of work list to ensure a steady pay check, pay bills and food and what not.

Q. We're going to cover that and I want to say this -- every single carpenter who has said this to me has said exactly what you have and I respect that. I don't want you to think that if the out of work list with its rules is something that should not continue to affect carpenters that is something that the Judge needs to resolve. I

Page 46 Guerin

have had no role in designing the job referral list, recommending it, and that's one of the things that is nice about my job.

I can analyze it and find out facts about it and whether it should continue to exist and whether it serves its purposes. So you're not hurting my feelings if you tell me the way in which I think most people are, including myself, that people work hard to take care of those they love and have responsibilities and do the very best they can to maximize those qualities and those attributes. And I don't disrespect you for that and I hope you can understand my views on that.

A. I understand.

Q. Explain to me perhaps in a little greater detail who presented the benefits or the description of the waiver to you, how did that come?

MR. LOMBARDI: Let's go off the record.

MR. MACK: Tell me why you want to go off.

A. This is -- we already discussed the

Page 47 Guerin

waiver. We thought it was a non-issue, took it off the table and now you're bringing it back to the table.

MR. LOMBARDI: I have an objection to the question.

Q. I want to understand what the terms of the waiver are and who presented them, that's all. I'm not changing my -‑

MR. LOMBARDI: Do you have the waiver?

MR. MACK: I don't have a waiver. MR. LOMBARDI: Can you get the waiver?

MR. MACK: I don't know, I have asked for the waiver. I do not have the specific waiver. Just tell me the terms of the waiver that's all.

MR. LOMBARDI: I think he already has.

MR. MACK: Then you state it.

MR. LOMBARDI: No, I think he has. MR. MACK: Which are what?

MR. LOMBARDI: I think he already has.

Page 48 Guerin

MR. MACK: To me I missed it.

MR. LOMBARDI: With all due respect we're here almost two hours now and we have had a lot of statements made for the record about your disapproval of the district council and the handling of the disciplinary system yet you have no power to discipline.

So we are here I think to ask some questions of Mr. Guerin about his referral history, about his skill set, about the additions and deletions and benefits history. I am not going to have him interpret legal policies of the district council and I'm not going to do it either. And he has given you his understanding of what the waiver entailed.

By counsel Mr. Guerin has already responded to the question. And my understanding of his response and of the waiver itself is that so long as Mr. Guerin agrees to abide by the union rules and bylaws in their entirety with respect

Page 4 9 Guerin

to the proper maintenance of the list and things related thereto that he would not be sanctioned in any way for the charges identified in the June 9, 2004 charge form.

MR. MACK: All right, so all the charges that are contained in MG-4 is that what you are referring to?

MR. LOMBARDI: He received a waiver with respect to those charges.

Q. And a waiver means that there is no sanction either in terms of fine or anything of that nature; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

MR. MACK: Now, what I would like to do and let me ask this question to counsel -- what is your client's understanding if there were additional, if any, charges that were not covered specifically by these would that affect the waiver or not?

MR. LOMBARDI: I'm not sure if I understand your question.

MR. MACK: In other words if there

Page 50 Guerin

were charges of riding the list that were not specifically mentioned in the exhibits -‑

MR. LOMBARDI: In MG-4.

Q. Was there any understanding that it included not only what was there but any possible other violations up to a certain date?

MR. LOMBARDI: Do you understand his question?

A. I understand it. If you don't mind -­when I signed the waiver I admitted it from that day back.

Q. I see.

A. With any charge that they did not bring or bring I admitted to when I signed the waiver. Yes, I rode the out of work list, I did change my skills to obtain a job.

Q. Okay.

MR. LOMBARDI: So within the time period covered.

A. But since that day until today I have not done that infraction.

MR. LOMBARDI: What Mr. Mack is

asking you is in the time period covered

Page 51 Guerin

by MG-4.

A. 1998 through 2004.

Q. I don't have a copy of the waiver.

A. I don't have a copy of it either and I did ask and it's hard to come by as of yet.

Q. Can you give me an estimate. I think I know because I remember sometime it was in the winter of 2004. But do you have any recollection of what month it was that this waiver was signed by you?

A. Not in particular, no.

MR. LOMBARDI: It wasn't on June 9, 2004 the date on the charges or was it after?

Q. Even a season would be fine.

A. It was in the spring so it was right around that time, might have been right around up to that time.

Q. Around spring of 2004?

A. Yes.

Q. Let me just state this just so that I understand that in your mind because I don't have the document. I have asked for the document the waiver and I would if I were your lawyer I would

Page 52 Guerin

certainly want to ensure that this was in writing to protect you.

MR. LOMBARDI: I'm going to ask you to refrain further from telling him what you would do if you were his lawyer or what I should do as his lawyer.

MR. MACK: I think it's important.

MR. LOMBARDI: We are not here specifically to record what you think is important. We are here for a deposition but pretty soon we are going to have to start asking him questions.

MR. MACK: I don't know what that means but --

MR. LOMBARDI: Very plain what that means. This has been one long political statement since we have got here, more than usual. Please, I think we have on the record that from the time he executed the waiver in approximately June 2004 back to -‑

MR. MACK: Is it June 2004?

MR. LOMBARDI: Sometime in the spring of 2004 sometime around the time

Page 53 Guerin

of the plea form.

A. Yes.

MR. LOMBARDI: Back to the

earliest charge I see here is August 1998 that for that entire period of time there was an amnesty conferred upon you for the waiver for any charges that are in here or anything else.

MR. MACK: Or anything else?

MR. LOMBARDI: Or anything else.

A. That is my understanding.

MR. LOMBARDI: That's my client's understanding.

Q. So that will at least affect the questions I ask you but there are some questions in that time period. I'm not affected by that amnesty in terms of asking questions about specific jobs. It not only affects you but also affects other individuals so let me ask some series of questions some of which Mr. Lombardi has heard before types of questions.

And then we're going to go over some specific instances that I am interested in finding out more data about. You don't have a copy of the

Page 54 Guerin

amnesty?

A. No.

Q. Do you recall was there a written document prepared at the time that you signed?
A. Yes.

Q. And you were not furnished a copy of that?

A. I might have been I'm not too organized in paperwork.

Q. Let me ask some general questions. At any time, and I don't need to go all the way back to 1998, I would like to start in 2000, has any contractor on any job site in which you were on offered to cause you or ask you to change your shop steward report to be inaccurate or to record carpenters in an inaccurate way?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever received any type of cash or things of that nature or even offered cash in order to do something which you knew not to be consistent with union rules?

A. Excuse me one minute please.

MR. LOMBARDI: You're talking about since 2000?

Page 55 Guerin

MR. MACK: Since 2000.

A. No.

Q. Was there a time within this amnesty period and let me say in which I want you to understand that even though you took the position get out of my face with this, or I don't want to hear it, what have you, my question is broader than that. It's saying the contractor come to you and try to get you to do something which you refused to do, that question would also call for that answer.

A. No.

Q. So it never happened?

A. No.

Q. Now, have there been any occasions in which a business agent has recommended or provided guidance or direction to you that would assist you at your assignment as a shop steward to a job site?

A. Repeat the question again.

Q. I'm going to go through specific ones but I want to ask the broad question. Have there been any occasions and let me again limit my question to from 2000 going forward and not

Page 56 Guerin

withstanding the amnesty, I don't recognize any amnesty, so I don't want you to feel that the district council gave me amnesty, I don't have to answer it. I am asking you the question.

Has there been an occasion in which a business agent or business manager, let me be that broad, has advised you or given you advice that would have the effect to increase your chances or did in fact assist you in getting a job?

THE WITNESS: Can we step out a minute?

Q. It's a broad question. I can ask the question more than once.

(Discussion off the record.)

Q. So just take me through it if you would and so I can listen carefully and tell me what the answer is.

A. Yes.

Q. When, with whom, where, what occasion?

A. On a couple occasions when I was working with Jerry Philbin. He was my agent and I would work closely with Jerry and Jerry would

Page 57 Guerin

mention he had something coming up. Maybe I should add a few skills or delete a few skills to ensure or maybe you might be able to get that job and work with Jerry again and I did.

Q. I just lost you -- work with Jerry?

A. As a business when you work with a business agent he relies on you to be up front with him and help him, let him know what is going on with the job. And he trusted me to tell him what was going on with the job and we worked well together, we had a good rapport and yeah, he helped me get some work.

Q. Now, do you remember specific jobs that he assisted you in getting work? We can go through some because I would like to get the benefit of your recollection to start.

A. Yes, there are two -- 2002.

Q. So are there others before 2002?

A. There might have been a few occasions where he helped me to secure some employment, yes.

MR. MACK: Let me ask and I know this is a dangerous thing but let me ask Mr. Lombardi what is the most efficient way for me to cover each one? Do you

Page 58 Guerin

want me to start or does your client -­can he specify based upon what I have provided or what his preparation today to isolate the job because you know what -­where was the job, who said what, all of that detail, what is your suggestion?

MR. LOMBARDI: I suggest we let Mr. Guerin attempt to direct you to the individual instances and then not go over them again afterwards.

MR. MACK: Well, if I have further questions.

MR. LOMBARDI: Further questions. MR. MACK: I will try to do my best listening.

Q. You fire away if you would and identify -- if you could start at the earliest point and take me forward.

A. There was an office tower 745 Seventh Avenue. That was Jerry's job, it was a concrete job, a goulash job, meaning that it was a steel job with, you know, concrete form made around the steel for fireproofing and structural strength. I had done that back in the day when I broke into

Page 59 Guerin

the business as a goulash carpenter doing concrete work. So he said we have a nice job coming up. Put down that you do concrete work and protection work and we will see if we can stay on the list as long as possible and then when your number drops low enough you'll submit the job to the district council.

Q. Okay, now what I would like to do just so that I can be specific I would like to find the job the dispatch. Do you remember the contractor's name?

A. Century Max.

Q. So let's find that dispatch and that will make it easier for me. If you know what approximately was the date of that?

A. It was right around -- right after the winter so March.

MR. LOMBARDI: What year?

THE WITNESS: 2000.

Q. I'm looking at MG-7.

A. That's right.

Q. So let me look at that. So what I'm looking at here is a dispatch which appears to be May 3, 2000; is that correct?

Page 60 Guerin

A. Yes.

Q. And that's a Century Max job. The location is at 49th and Broadway. Is that the job we are talking about?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, what is the significance if any of the fact that the request form which I am looking at which is MG-7 has Maurice McGrath as the caller?

A. There was only -- that's in the office. I really couldn't tell you what this one is, you understand, I didn't send that in, I never seen this before until today. So I don't know any names. I know I had a deal with Jerry Philbin so when I got the phone call I called up Jerry and that's who I dealt with, no other agent, any other business on the job I dealt with Jerry and that was it.

Q. Now, when you say you got the phone call just tell me what that phone call is -- from whom?

A. District council.

Q. And the district council assigned you to the job?

Page 61 Guerin

A. Correct.

Q. So just if you would take me through how Jerry assisted you in getting this job again - and be as precise as you can be.

A. There was a foundation job that was going to be an office tower for Morgan Stanley Dean Witter and it would have been a long time job for four or five months and he said change your skills set. Put down concrete, wood framing, layout protection and when your numbers come down low enough he will submit the job to the council.

Q. Jerry would?

A. Well, in this case it was Maurice. He probably told me to hang on until the job was ready, until my number came down. And when my name came down low enough they sent it to the council and that's how I got the phone call for that job.

Q. So would it be fair to say you anticipated -‑

A. I anticipated that job.

MR. LOMBARDI: Let him finish the question.

Q. Now, did you have any conversations

Page 62 Guerin

with Maurice McGrath about this job that you can recall?

A. No.

Q. So you yourself had no interaction with Maurice McGrath about getting this job?

A. No.

Q. Just bear with me for one moment. I want to say one thing to you and I'm not suggesting
you do this or are doing this. But I would say that there is some evidence in other matters having nothing to do with you, all right, and so I just want to raise it that it is a matter under some consideration that some carpenters have been advised. Since Jerry Philbin is no longer around to defend himself that if there is someone to blame for certain actions, and I'm just saying this in the most courteous way, and I'm not in any way suggesting that you are not telling the truth, but I will tell you because I think I have the duty to tell you. There is a hotline call, several on this very point, obviously by people whom have close relationships currently or in the past with Jerry Philbin.

They are to the effect that either they

Page 6 3 Guerin

were advised or some people have been advised that if there is a choice to blame somebody pick on Jerry because, you know, he is gone is what it boils down to. And again let me say this in the most positive and constructive way. I don't accuse you of that but there are people who feel that sometimes Jerry is unfairly blamed for things that he didn't do. So I would ask you and I know your lawyer has also said this is to blame, you know, whatever happened. If it's Jerry it's Jerry but if it's somebody else it's somebody else, fair enough?

A. Yup.

Q. What was your relationship with Jerry Philbin?

A. Jerry was like a mentor to me from back in the day. He was one of the first big time shop stewards with a few other gentlemen and as he moved up the ranks he relied on certain individuals and I had a lot of good times with Jerry. I'm not going to shirk that but we were good friends.

Q. Now, I have asked you this but with respect to this particular job at Century Max you

Page 64 Guerin

had no contact with Maurice McGrath but you can't speak as to what Jerry did or anything concerning Maurice McGrath, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Why don't we go to the next occasion in which you had assistance from a business. I'm not going to assume it is Jerry. I'm going to wait for you to tell me what happened and the specific case.

A. The next job would have been -‑

Q. You may want to go through your dispatch, that may be a more efficient way.

A. The other job was the Westin Times Square.

Q. So can you give me an approximate time period?

A. That was in December of 2000 through October of 2001 -- Sorbara.

Q. Is that 660 Eighth Avenue?

A. Yes.

Q. So the time period that I am showing I am going to look at what I consider to be the dispatch and the request so I have that as being November 24, 2000; is that correct?

Page 65 Guerin

A. That's correct.

Q. If you would just tell me what happened there. And I notice there were a whole series of skills added and deleted and just take me through that if you would.

A. Same case scenario -- the office tower was winding down and it was busy, a lot of work around, there was a job coming up, a reinforced concrete job at 43rd and Eighth Avenue.

Q. That was the Westin?

A. Yes, so I put my name on the out of work list so I kept working at the hotel probably added and deleted to play the game with the out of work list and secured that job. And I did deal with Maurice McGrath for a short period of time.

And then there was a switch with business agents and Jerry was my agent again. So when I had to bring down my time sheets I brought a few down to Maurice they switched.

Q. Just say that to me again I didn't understand what you told me. The business agents switched?

A. They all switched their locations. I was told to see Jerry again -- to deal with any

Page 66 Guerin

business matters on the job to see Jerry Philbin.

Q. Now, let me just pull together because I want to ask you some specific questions on this job.

Now, with specific reference to this job at the Westin here when you told me that you originally dealt with Maurice McGrath -‑

A. Yes.

Q. Does that mean that you were just simply bringing your reports to him or that he was advising you what skills to have on your sheet?

A. I was to bring my time sheets to Maurice McGrath. It was his area at the time and that's what I did.

Q. Was he advising you -- was Mr. McGrath advising you ever how to increase the likelihood that you would get the Sorbara job?

A. No.

Q. Now, is it fair for me to believe that you were working at the time that you went on the out of work list?

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, what we see on your job referral history is that you added skills, sexual

Page 6 7 Guerin

harassment, power activated tool. And then if you look with me -‑

MR. LOMBARDI: When was that?

MR. MACK: The actual add was

November 20, 2000.

Q. And basically two days later the dispatch is out and I have the dispatch in front of me and you can have it as well and it's part of MG-7.

Are you telling me that it was Jerry Philbin who recommended that you add those skills for the jobs to increase your likelihood?

A. I had taken classes down at the district council and they were part of the requirements and, yes, he said add these to get that.

Q. Okay, and the "he" in that sentence is Jerry Philbin?

A. Yes.

Q. Had you taken the 10-hour OSHA course at the school?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, again you will notice -‑

MR. LOMBARDI: Just for the record

Page 68 Guerin

the 10-hour OSHA was not added on those dates.

MR. MACK: The 10-hour OSHA was added on November 13th.

MR. LOMBARDI: Before that we are talking about two days before.

MR. MACK: Thank you for helping me and basically -‑

MR. LOMBARDI: I want the record to be accurate.

MR. MACK: Thank you for watching the record on my behalf.

MR. LOMBARDI: You're welcome. And also for the record demand and request does not reference sexual harassment but it does reference the OSHA.

MR. MACK: The OSHA and the power activated tool.

MR. LOMBARDI: Right but not sexual harassment.

MR. MACK: As we say in the trade the document speaks for itself.

Q. And what I do want to refer to now is

Page 69 Guerin

the fact that again Maurice McGrath is identified as the caller for that and I ask the same question as before.

Do you understand or know why it would be Mr. McGrath at least on this sheet who made the call?

A. Yes, because at the time that was Maurice's area to -- he had the jurisdiction of that area so that building was in his location. I got to the job a few weeks after I -‑

Q. Jerry switched?

A. Everything switched and I was told Jerry said come see me.

Q. Okay, so were you on this job before you became the shop steward, is that what you are telling me?

A. No, I was on the office tower.

Q. So was Jerry the responsible business agent on November 22, 2000 the date of the assignment because you will notice that the dispatch has Maurice McGrath?

A. Maurice was the responsible business agent at the time and then there was a switch.

Q. But that occurred after --

Page 70 Guerin

A. After I had landed on the job.

Q. Can you tell me if you know whether Maurice in fact made the call on the Sorbara job or not or in other words I have a record that reflects Maurice as being the caller on this date November 22, 2000.

MR. LOMBARDI: To the district council.

MR. MACK: Right.

MR. LOMBARDI: Do you personally know if he made that call?

THE WITNESS: No, I don't.

Q. Do you know if Jerry had in fact made recommendations or had some role since I think you just told me if I understand you correctly that Jerry did not take over responsibility for several weeks after the dispatch?

A. Correct.

Q. So I am trying to find out whether Jerry had a hand in this specific request for dispatch?

MR. LOMBARDI: Do you know?

THE WITNESS: Not particularly, no, I don't know.

Page 71 Guerin

Q. But was it Jerry or Maurice who gave you the recommendation as to the skills to add?

A. I already had those skills so Jerry. I just finished taking the power activated tool class and he said put that on your skills. And when I put that on the skills they must have talked to each other, I don't know what they do.

Q. That's for me to find out.

But you don't have any knowledge of that?

A. No.

Q. Take me to the next job in which you had some assistance in increasing the likelihood of you being assigned to it.

A. I went down to a job 200 Vesey Street the American Express Tower right after 9/11. I went down there, I got laid off from the hotel. Jerry said put these down, delete these, you got to get down there, that's what I did.

Q. So let's see if -- it was right after September 11th so I am naturally going to turn to September 20, 2001 which appears to be around the time period.

When did you get laid off from the

Page 72 Guerin

Sorbara job approximately?

A. Right around -- right after 9/11 -­right around that happened.

Q. So I have you going back on September 20, 2001. You're added to the OUL, the out of work list, and you change your phone?

A. I just bought a phone. I was using my home phone but then I have to be home to get the phone call and it was an upstate number so I bought a phone and started using a cell phone.

Q. The only reason I mention that is it may assist you in remembering what happened. Then as you will see and I will just read this briefly to you. On September 26th you added acoustical ceiling siding you deleted welding and refrigeration.

A. That is correct.

Q. You did that at the suggestion of Jerry Philbin?

A. Right away he said you got to get down there, change your qualifications, and that's what I did.

Q. So was this a recommendation by Jerry on the phone or in person?

Page 73 Guerin

A. Right in person. I went down to the union hall -- he said right way -- he said do this right now and that is what I did.

Q. Do you know whether or not he had a role in seeing that this job was called in right away?

A. I'm not particularly sure about that, I wouldn't know that.

Q. Actually you have some help on this because if you just turn you will see that there is a call on September 26th directly there from Jerry with specific skills.

A. Yes, that's what I did.

Q. So you basically were following Jerry's advice to do what he told you?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay, let me ask you a general question and it may save some time. There are a number of occasions where I see you are referred to a job and you stay on it almost very brief. This is sort of the opposite, very brief period of time, sometimes a matter of hours. So the question is we can go through specific ones, but would it be fair that if you are referred to a job which you

Page 74 Guerin

believe not to be worth staying at you will simply leave?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. On some of those occasions you leave because you know there's a better job coming down or you would like at least a better job?

A. It would be more fair to say that after sitting on the out of work list for three months I can't take a three week job. I'm going to wait another couple of days to get a decent job for three months. I can't afford to sit home another three months, work for three weeks, sit out for three months, I would be -‑

Q. So you want to make sure you get --

A. A decent job, not a long term, a decent job.

Q. Let me ask this. In your own words, I know you alluded to it before, tell me what is a decent job, what is a job that you wish to try for, what are its components?

A. Anything for six months is a good job. Anything longer than that is a little bonus but

Page 75 Guerin

four to six months is a good job.

Q. And I think we have agreed that if there is a job that doesn't appear to be in that category you may stay a very short time with the hopes that another job will come along?

A. That's correct.

Q. At the time period and I'll even say during the waiver period so that you're not getting nervous that I'm trying to fool or trick you with a question again -‑

A. All right.

Q. When you know you're riding the list -­and I'm going to presume unless you tell me that you know that the out of work list at least to some means that you're not actually working and you were working during the time period -- in terms of your analysis of why you had to do that or why it needed to be done or why people do it, just go through it for me and the Judge. I have heard it from many but just tell me why it's okay or why you did it from time to time, let me put it that way.

A. Myself in general?

Q. Your own perspective on it.

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A. I do it to keep working because you know that's the business so as being a carpenter steward I take a lot of grief from the company. I take a lot of grief from the contractors and from my own people but, you know, I feel like maybe I should be one-up on a regular guy. I extend myself to do what I have to do, the right thing to do by the union, but maybe they should extend themselves for me to move on quickly without waiting so long on the list, you know what I mean.

Q. I want to do justice to this. My feeling is this -- that I want to make sure I understand in your mind, you know, when you say you did more than many -- in other words you are I am sure an outstanding shop steward but when you tell me that you do more or that you fight for the union or do -- just set that forth to me. Why on behalf of the district council is your presence on a job site so important?

A. Well, my presence on a job is to protect our jurisdiction, to make sure that the contractor is on the legitimate end of the business and that all the men get their benefits, they have a safe working condition and to, you

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know, facilitate it is a clean working union job.

Q. Now, presumably that is the objective of every shop steward, that is what the school probably trains. But is it your view, and I happen to know it is the view of a number that you know, there are certainly different qualities, some shop stewards are better than other shop stewards. Do you see yourself in other words that you are in that category of excellent shop stewards?

A. I don't want to paraphrase you but I am sure you would say some lawyers are better than others, correct? I just want to be the average guy. I'm not looking to be above and beyond I'm no superman. I'm not going be taken advantage of either, you understand?

Q. So if I understood you correctly before and if I didn't then you should correct me but I seem to sense that you were saying because of what you do as a stop steward in your mind it was okay for you to be riding the list on occasion. Did I misunderstand that?

A. No, you're right.

Q. That's a hard thing to quantify for

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let's say a policy maker whether it's the district council or the government. Or in other words are there reasons that justify people being on the list when they are working? I want to make sure I have given you an opportunity to explain why you say it that way.

A. Well, if you were sitting where I'm sitting most company guys and foremen alike they get to move around without impunity. They go to all the good jobs and wherever the company is working. And back in the day it would have been evenly matched with the 50/50 that the local guys would have gotten a lions share of the job but we don't get that today. So in my case in general I extend myself to the working guy and I try to keep -- I expect -- not that I expect -- excuse me -- I pretend in my own mind maybe that I should go out above the regular guy.

Q. And therefore the rules of the out of work list should not apply to you as stringently; would that be fair?

A. That would be fair because we don't get any extra moneys like a foreman gets extra moneys for running the jobs. He gets holidays and

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vacation we don't get that. We get the grief from the working guy and the company and the super and the general contractor and even sometimes from our own, you know, because they see things. They are not on the job. When you're on the job every day that daily grind believe me it wears you down.

Q. I am sure that's true.

A. It's not an easy thing to do correctly.

Q. I'm sure that's true and as I have said many times here I'm just a lawyer and not a carpenter and that's why I do ask these questions. And now that the topic has come up let me seize the moment and ask you what is your opinion of the request system as it currently functions?

A. It doesn't work.

Q. I have written about it but .I would like to hear your views on that subject.

A. It's unbiased, it's unbalanced, and it doesn't work. The contractor has the whole pie and is only giving you a sliver.

Q. Just explain that because the Judge will be reading this or his clerk and he spends less time thinking about these subjects than I do so you need to be very clear about what you're

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telling him.

A. When you have a job that is company manned they don't care for the union because they are relying on the company to keep them working, you understand. So they will do whatever the contractor asks them to do. You want to work through lunch, you want to start early, you want to work a little late without getting paid they will do that. Do you understand?

Q. Yes.

A. I mean there are certain safety issues that they skirt and violate because they need to keep working. So they won't look for a harness to put on, they'll just go do what they got to do. Meanwhile I would say put a harness on and I'm a bad guy and I don't want to be the bad guy. But I want to make sure that guy goes home to his wife and kids. So the out of work list is a means of keeping the local guys out of work and the company guys working because those guys go on the list, off the list, on the list every day. But when that local guy does it or a carpenter does it he gets brought up on charges for violating the out of work rules.

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Q. Just so that the Judge knows you're lifting up the exhibit with your charges.

A. Right.

Q. What is that number?

A. MG-4.

Q. I just want to spell it out because I do have opinions. You and I agree on this to be perfectly honest. There are areas of agreement and I have written about it and I have written a report you should read it, it's pretty strong about the 50/50 system.

In any event just to make sure spell it out because the contractor not only picks the company men he also by requesting people that are on the list maybe just that instant or for a very short time really in effect is picking 90 percent or more of the work force on the site.

A. Correct.

Q. And in fact the shop steward is theoretically the only individual who is coming off the list?

A. From unemployment.

Q. Is there anything else about the request system or your view that you want the

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Judge to have in mind?

A. To be fair the contractor shouldn't have that kind of power, you know, because it's all one sided.

Q. Let me give you the push back that the district council as well as the contractors who sat where you have come back. They say, hey, listen Mr. Geurin and Mr. Mack -- what happens when we take people off the list we get people in the concrete world and concrete, especially concrete, as you know is very arduous, you need people to know what they are doing. We pay X amount per hour so much per day and the people the union sends us off the list are not competent to do the work we ask them to do. And that's why we have to have this right to pick and choose our entire work force. What is your answer to that argument?

A. That's insignificant because any guy, any carpenter, should be able to walk on to any job and do any aspect of that trade.

Q. I also add to that that if he doesn't or she doesn't know that there are school and other people who can train them in a short period

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of time to be adequate. Would that be fair?

A. That is fair.

Q. Let's move on to the next job in which you had some assistance or guidance in being able to be assigned to it. And you just keep moving along and see if there are others.

A. I didn't really particularly care for working down here after 9/11 so I asked to leave.

Q. I see -- you're going back. Now, there's a time, let me see here, that you actually were on that job and I see you back on the out of work list on October 26, 2001.

A. That's right.

Q. That is because you were uncomfortable as I was.

A. Right, that was November 26th.

Q. All right.

A. I was there exactly two months.

Q. So you were actually, all right -- and so you went back -- so tell me again was there another job or what is the next job in which you had some guidance or assistance in being assigned?

A. There was the Northside job at the Trump.

Q. Let's talk about that job because I know a little bit about that job which I don't understand.

A. Trump Building F.

Q. I know the building but I would like you to take me through how you came to be assigned to that job, what happened there?

A. When I stepped off the Ground Zero job there were a few things working, you know, around the city. At the time everybody was concentrating down here, there was very little things going on. Everybody like froze, all those jobs uptown stopped, everybody was concentrating down here.

So then in the meantime before I went to that Northside job I did one week at 96th Street and West End Avenue with Oilean Concrete. That job was a plank job meaning that they're structural planks for the slab. So the concrete work that we did on that particular job we were on the second floor. There was only two walls and a staircase wall and once that was formed and poured and stripped brick layers would come and block the exterior walls, a few hallway walls, and put the planks on top of that and then we could come back.

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I didn't come back because the guy -- I was there four days.

Q. What was the problem?

A. Because the guy told me I have no work for you come back in two weeks. I said no I will leave and get my money and I am leaving. I ended up going to the Northberry job.

Q. Tell me what happened at the Northberry job. I have heard a lot about that job. Did you have some assistance or guidance in getting that?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me about it.

A. Jerry believe it or not.

Q. Okay.

A. I work closely with Jerry and he said yeah, we have something coming uptown with Northberry. I never worked with these guys before so we'll make some arrangements for you to go up there.

Q. Say that last sentence to me again. We will make some arrangements.

A. We discussed my out of work skills, my work skills.

Q. Who is the we in that sentence?

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A. Me and Jerry.

Q. Anyone else in the we?

A. No.

Q. And tell me what your discissions were and what you decided to do and what was done as best as you can remember?

A. At that time I had drywall after just coming from 9/11 and acoustical ceilings on my skills. I switched that back to concrete protection and layout.

Q. Was that because Jerry recommended you do that?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, were you aware that you missed the first dispatch on this job?

A. No, no, I didn't know that.

Q. So that never came to your attention that basically there was a referral, an immediate dispatch, and you were bypassed because you didn't answer your phone?

A. I believe that was 65th Street.

Q. Okay, we will get to that.

A. On the Trump Building F.

Q. The Trump Building F the skills that

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were added -- did you have eight-hour scaffolding?

A. At that time, yes.

Q. But those skills were in fact it was recommended to you that you add them by Jerry Philbin; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

MR. LOMBARDI: For this job? MR. MACK: This job.

MR. LOMBARDI: It's almost over a month ahead of time.

THE WITNESS: What -- this job?

MR. LOMBARDI: When you added the eight-hour scaffolding it was on November 14th.

THE WITNESS: I had taken that class that class was for Ground Zero.

Q. Eight-hour scaffolding?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay, I didn't know that.

But anyway Jerry assisted you with what skills should be necessary for Trump Building F, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Did you know at the time John

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Vecchione?

A. No, that was the first time I met him.

Q. That was on the Trump job?

A. Right and at that time he was working finishing up another job so I only met the guy for like five minutes and then left.

Q. So how long were you on building F?

A. We were doing the make up. We made all the form work, we were there at least three weeks before he came in, maybe four weeks, small crew of guys making forms. We made sets of forces and walls and columns.

Q. And basically you were working for Northside when you were added to the out of work list or at one time I have you added on July 11th 2002.

A. July 11th?

Q. I have you originally assigned -- you can look at the benefits -- it looks like December 10, 2001.

A. December 18th.

Q. December 18th, right.

A. July -‑

MR. LOMBARDI: The bottom of page

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seven.

Q. You were on that job -- approximately how long that really was my question -- if you remember. And you will see that you go back on the out of work list in July 2002.

A. It's a better job. I did work -- I did work those two months until -- that's a better job with Trump Building A -- I did work with my name on the out of work list.

Q. I'm not going to dwell on that one thing. Did you ever come into contact with a company called Silo Construction?

A. When I was on 96th Street one day that Thursday when I was leaving a gentleman came in and said he was doing the protection and he worked for Silo. So I carded him and he said he was the carpenter steward there so I took him for his word and I was leaving that day so I really -- you know.

Q. What job site are you talking about -­West 96th Street?

A. Yes, the 96th and West End Avenue.

Q. When did that occur in 2001?

A. That was the day with Oilean that was

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yeah, Oilean, right, I was in between the two jobs, right.

Q. Do you remember the name of who that person was?

A. Not today no.

Q. Was there anything about the conduct of Silo Construction in that short period that gave you reason to question anything about them?

A. No.

MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Do you know who the GC was on that job?

THE WITNESS: Actually I'm not too familiar with the GC. I remember it was a real rough job, you know, barely organized. It was pretty pathetic actually and I really didn't pay too much attention because I seen the job. From my point of view it was a short term job so I wasn't really too concerned about what was going on there.

MR. SOBOCIENSKI: How about the construction manager if there was one?

THE WITNESS: I didn't meet no construction manager. There was a GC

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there but I can't recall the contractor or the person running the job.

Q. Did a business agent come to the site when you were there at any time?

A. Joey Firth did come one day and he was like what is going on here, are you okay here.

And I told him I will be leaving by the end of the week and he said all right.

Q. Did it ever come to your attention that Joey Firth might have had an altercation,

argument, dispute, interaction of a violent nature with anyone on that job site?

A. No.

MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Do you know a contractor by the name of Finbar O'Neal?

THE WITNESS: I heard of that name before.

MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Did you know him to be on that job site?

THE WITNESS: I didn't see him at any particular time, no.

Q. Did you hear at all that he was there or had any organization or persons there at the job site?

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A. No, I had just the people I was working with Oilean.

Q. Now, when you say the job was disorganized or you had criticism can you flesh that out for me a little -- what you mean by that in terms of your own -‑

A. It was a mess.

Q. Just tell me what.

A. It was in disarray. There was debris and shit all over the place. It was a safety hazard, complete chaos. I didn't think the guy had a handle on the job. It gave me another reason to step off, I didn't feel like getting hurt.

Q. What was the nature of the safety issues that you saw at that job site?

A. Garbage, debris piled up, holes that were without protection, it was a mess, it was a disgrace.

Q. Did you communicate any of your concerns?

A. I did, there was a site safety guy there as a matter of fact and he didn't seem too concerned about it either.

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Q. Do you know from where or when?

A. I think it was Total Site Safety.

Q. And he seemed unconcerned?

A. He was concerned but he didn't really force the issue.

Q. Why not, any opinion?

A. No, I have no opinion.

Q. And did you communicate any of your concerns about the job site to Joe Firth or any other business agent?

A. I might have called and said this place is a mess and I won't be too long here and I'm leaving.

Q. Do you believe you did that?

A. I believe I did that, believe me I did that, I left on my own accord.

Q. Do you believe that you communicated your concerns to Joe Firth?

A. Yes, I told Joey this is a shit hole