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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
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3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
4 Plaintiff,
90 CIV 5722
5 -against- (CSH)
6 DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED
7 BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS
AND JOINERS OF AMERICA, et al.,
8
Defendants.
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10
11 Independent Investigator Interview of
12 WILLIAM HANLEY, taken by the Independent
13 Investigator Walter Mack, Esq., pursuant to letter
14 subpoena, at the offices of Doar, Rieck & Mack,
15 Esqs., 217 Broadway, New York, New York, on
16 Wednesday, May 18, 2005, at 2: 15 p.m., before
17 Margaret Eustace, a Shorthand Reporter and notary
18 public, within and for the State of New York.
19
20
21
22
23 TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
305 Madison Avenue 142 Willis Avenue
24 Suite 449 P.O. Box 347
New York, N.Y. 10165 Mineola, New York 11501
25 (212)349-9692 (516)741-5235
(212) 349-9692 TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY (516) 741-5235
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A P P E A R A N C E S :
2
DOAR RIECK & MACK, ESQS.
3 217 Broadway, 7th floor
New York, New York 10007-2911
4
BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.
5 Independent Investigator
6
7 On Behalf of the Witness:
8 PRYOR CASHMAN SHERMAN & FLYNN, LLP
410 Park Avenue
9 New York, New York 10022-4441
10 BY: VINCENT F. PITTA, ESQ.
11
12 Also Present:
13 Donald Sobocieski
14
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2 EXAMINATION BY
3 MR. MACK:
4 Q. Let's go on the record.
5 Let me give you some idea, Bill, of what
6 we are doing today. A lot of this I have just said
7 to you a few moments ago, but I want to do it again
8 because as I always say, it's very likely that Judge
9 Haight or people working directly for Judge Haight
10 in his chambers will be reading what we're producing
11 here today, and he will insist that I have gone
12 through all your rights, concerns and everything.
13 Although you are well represented and
14 ably represented by Mr. Pitta today, who has
15 probably done this many, many times, I consider it
16 my obligation and responsibility, one that would be
17 enforced by the Court, to make sure I answer any
18 questions that you might have and also that you
19 understand what we are doing today.
20 As you know, although I may not have an
21 awful lot of time left to me as Independent
22 Investigator, as the Judge decided recently,
23 notwithstanding what the website says, basically to
24 permit me to continue until a new Independent
25 Investigator is appointed by him.
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2 I expect that to happen soon. As I have
3 told District Council, I will continue to march and
4 do my job and submit reports until the Judge tells
5 me to stop. I may have the right to submit reports
6 after a new II is appointed.
7 As you do know, if not I will reiterate,
8 I am doing to report on Tri-Built Construction, Inc.
9 as my next report. I have done four reports, this
10 would be my fifth, concerning my findings as
11 Independent Investigator about Tri-Built
12 Construction.
13 In many respects, I say at least to me it
14 is even more shocking than Boom in terms of my
15 overall view. If you haven't read the Boom report,
16 you certainly should read the Tri-Built report when
17 it becomes available.
18 You, as a number of business managers who
19 have had some, at least possible interaction with
20 Tri-Built, come in or have come in to be interviewed
21 about the subject of Tri-Built, as well as a couple
22 of other subjects that are important to me based
23 upon investigative work that I have already done.
24 So that's why you are here today.
25 As business manager of 157, I have told
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2 District Council, and I am honoring my commitment,
3 that unless I feel that either the business manager
4 or agent is potentially guilty of some criminal
5 wrongdoing, out of respect for them and their
6 position and the difficulty of their position, I am
7 not conducting what I have done with almost every
8 shop steward -- with every shop steward and
9 contractor that I have done, as I have placed them
10 under oath and required sworn testimony.
11 But out of some deference to their
12 position and my confidence that if there are
13 failures in their performance, it is not intentional
14 and is something that is shared with me in trying to
15 improve for the future, that I am conducting this
16 interview to assist me in getting your side or
17 understanding your perspective on a number of
18 concerns of mine.
19 However, as I told you just a few moments
20 ago, because I do work for Judge Haight, and as such
21 I am an agent of the District Court, were somebody,
22 a prosecutor, let's say, which I am not, to conclude
23 that you willfully deceived me, lied to me or
24 withheld information that I should have had, that
25 would be considered, could be considered an
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2 obstruction of justice, which is a federal crime and
3 carries with it significant sanctions, were you to
4 be charged and convicted.
5 So I basically go through a much more
6 involved warning when I talk to carpenters, but, in
7 essence, what I am saying here is I am not a
8 prosecutor, I have been a prosecutor. I am not a
9 defense lawyer, and I am and have been a defense
10 attorney.
11 I am here acting as an investigator, and
12 really, the only way that you can run into a
13 significant issue with me or the Judge is for you
14 not to answer fully and accurately with me on the
15 subject that I am going to talk to you about.
16 I am not going to overstress that. I
17 expect you to be, and I have every expectation you
18 will honor your obligation to help me do my job for
19 the Court to be informed about the subject matter.
20 Is that clear?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. As I say to every witness who appears,
23 you have a right to have counsel present and you
24 have chosen to have Mr. Pitta represent you today;
25 is that correct?
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2 A. Yes.
3 Q. At any time, if you wish to have a
4 discussion with Mr. Pitta about any subject of
5 importance before a question or after a question or
6 what have you, all you have to do is say I would
7 like to talk to Vinnie or Mr. Pitta. This is a
8 relatively informal afternoon. I am always glad to
9 have counsel present for a person. I think they
10 give good advice and can have questions answered.
11 Now, Mr. Pitta and I have had a
12 conversation before today in which I asked whether
13 he wanted a representative of District Council to be
14 present at the time of this occasion today.
15 I told him I don't care one way or the
16 other, but if in fact the District Council is
17 present here, I have an obligation to inform the
18 U.S. Attorney's office and let them have a
19 representative here as well, since they are two
20 parties in the case.
21 Mr. Pitta considered that for sometime
22 and told me you are willing to proceed today and
23 would prefer to proceed without District Council and
24 the government being present.
25 Is that true?
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2 MR. PITTA: That is correct.
3 Q. I also asked Mr. Pitta and District
4 Council to provide to me documents, because I am a
5 document person, concerning two particular projects,
6 and I received a package of documents yesterday
7 basically delivered to me by Mr. Pitta's firm, and I
8 am going to refer to them as what I am going to call
9 WH 10.
10 I just want to show that to you and your
11 counsel to make sure that is in fact what has been
12 produced to me. If you could just take a moment and
13 take a look at it.
14 (Pause.)
15 A. These are the sheets that come over from
16 the council.
17 Q. I will represent that I have neither
18 removed or added anything in there, but I also want
19 to have a follow-up question.
20 A. We did send some over to you, didn't we?
21 Q. Let me be accurate. I was harassing your
22 counsel yesterday because I had not received any
23 documents.
24 A. I know, but I sent it over.
25 Q. In fairness to you and your counsel, the
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2 District Council today found what you had sent over
3 and apologized and furnished a copy to me, but I
4 didn't get it until this morning, and your counsel
5 was kind enough to himself get involved yesterday,
6 because I had insisted that I have at least a day to
7 review the documents before I had the privilege of
8 seeing you this afternoon.
9 MR. PITTA: Walter, you are representing
10 that --
11 Q. I am representing that that is a copy of
12 what was provided to us by a representative of your
13 firm yesterday. That's how I received them.
14 Given that representation, does that at
15 least appear, and you can do whatever you want, and
16 I may refer to some of those documents as we move on
17 today.
18 I guess the main thing I wanted to ask,
19 with your counsel being present, is, are there any
20 other written or electronic, shall we say, records
21 which pertain to either of those job sites, Randalls
22 Island or what I call the Avalon project, which is
23 the Prince job at Houston and Christie?
24 A. No.
25 Q. I notice you have a document in front of
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2 you.
3 A. Being the business manager, I don't make
4 no business agent report, and I was taking care of
5 Georgie Deleseo's area at that time. He was out.
6 He had an operation on his back.
7 Q. I want to make sure, and what I would ask
8 is when we take a break, if you have notes in the
9 booklet in your hand right now --
10 A. Only times I went down to the Prince job.
11 Q. That's what I would like to make a copy
12 of during our break, because I would consider them
13 part and parcel of my document request.
14 Obviously, Mr. Pitta can look at those,
15 but I want to have the benefit of them after the two
16 projects.
17 MR. PITTA: I haven't yet seen this
18 notebook, and the other point I have told Mr.
19 Hanley, he is under continuing obligation if he
20 should find additional records that respond to the
21 request for reports, to provide them and he's agreed
22 to do that.
23 Q. Fine. All the point I want to make is
24 time is of the essence for me. After you have
25 reviewed the book, I am only asking for his notes
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2 that pertain to the Prince job.
3 A. I have them right here.
4 Q. Let your counsel look at them during the
5 break. I will make a copy of those and you can take
6 the book with you.
7 I am only interested in those entries
8 which pertain to the sites that I talked about, and
9 I think it's a fair assumption there is nothing in
10 there about the Randalls Island job.
11 A. No.
12 Q. So I am only interested in the Prince job
13 at Houston and Christie.
14 So let your counsel go through them on
15 the break and we'll deal with this again.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Is there anything else besides what has
18 been furnished by Pryor Cashman yesterday and your
19 own notebook that is a record of any kind of 157
20 that would refer or have some relationship to the
21 two jobs, Tri-Built job at Randalls Island or the
22 Prince construction job at Houston and Christie?
23 A. We gave you everything that we have.
24 Q. To your knowledge, have or has there been
25 any record that pertained to those two sites which
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2 have been destroyed or lost or unavailable for some
3 reason that they are not here?
4 A. No, I don't believe so, no.
5 Q. Let me go back to my sort of initial
6 spiel.
7 Since I am an agent of the court, you
8 have the same rights as any individual who would be
9 testifying appearing in front of Judge Haight. In
10 many respects, I am acting on behalf of Judge Haight
11 in a way that makes it easier for him to get data.
12 As such, you have certain rights which
13 you have that you would probably not have with the
14 District Council questioning you on these topics.
15 The most important, significant one is
16 what I consider a Fifth Amendment right, which your
17 counsel can explain to you.
18 This is what means in its simplest terms.
19 If I ask a question to you which a truthful answer
20 would tend to incriminate you personally, you have a
21 right to refuse to answer that question on Fifth
22 Amendment grounds.
23 Now, I give this warning to every
24 witness. Don't take anything from it, but I have
25 had witnesses who have taken the Fifth Amendment.
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2 So what I would say to you is number one,
3 if I get into an area, and I don't expect I will,
4 but should I, and it's what's in your mind that
5 counts, not what is in my mind, I would encourage
6 you to say let me talk to about Mr. Pitta about it.
7 Since this is a civil matter, not a
8 criminal matter, taking the Fifth Amendment could
9 have consequences. I can draw what they say in the
10 legal world inferences, why didn't Bill talk to me
11 about that. Maybe what the other guys told me were
12 right.
13 That's sort of drawing an adverse
14 inference, which means, in some cases, I am giving
15 you an opportunity to give me your side.
16 If you say I am not answering that
17 question, I have a right to say he must have
18 something to hide, why wouldn't he answer the
19 question.
20 I don't think the issue will arise, but I
21 want to have at least raised it with you and
22 encourage you to talk to Mr. Pitta about it should
23 you think it's appropriate.
24 I have no reason to believe it would be
25 and it might have consequences for you in the
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2 District Council.
3 I have taken the view that any time
4 somebody asserts the Fifth, one, I'm going to refer
5 it to the prosecutor, which is my practice, with
6 some kind of recommendation.
7 Two, I have taken the view that any
8 carpenter who takes the Fifth Amendment, there
9 should be an immediate question as to why he is
10 taking the Fifth. Does he have a right to assert
11 the Fifth before the District Council.
12 These are complex legal matters that I
13 don't think is ever going to occur here. If it
14 does, however, you have able counsel sitting at your
15 left to whom you can talk it, make your own mind up
16 to see if necessary.
17 I am not saying anything to you that I
18 haven't said to every other human being I would
19 questioned in the course of my time as independent
20 investigator.
21 It's an act of fairness to give you all
22 your rights and things of that nature.
23 Understand?
24 A. He wants to get me in trouble with Pete
25 Thomas.
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2 Q. That is something that I think is
3 important.
4 Is there anything else that I need to
5 tell you?
6 Basically, I will be making a report
7 about Tri-Built and I think I will be making a
8 report eventually about issues that deal with
9 Prince. I want to tell on the Prince job, I have
10 had a number of individuals testify under oath
11 before me already on the subject.
12 I want to make sure I understand your
13 perspective. It may not be different from them at
14 all. I don't want you to assume because you are
15 here, I have made up my mind or made any decisions
16 as to how the report should be written.
17 It's really an opportunity to hear what
18 you have to say and I encourage you to use that and
19 be comfortable about speaking your mind.
20 It's not an unfriendly atmosphere. It's
21 designed to give me the opportunity to hear what you
22 have to say on issues that are important to me.
23 Don Sobocienski, who we know has been on
24 your job sites from time to time. He works with me.
25 He's the brains of the II outfit. He may ask a
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2 question or two from time to time or encourage me to
3 remember to ask a question which is of concern. He
4 does that frequently. We are not going to gang up
5 on you, but he has an important role in ensuring
6 that I am accurate and I desperately seek to ensure
7 that my reports are accurate.
8 I give the District Council an
9 opportunity to respond to my reports. That's
10 probably the really only good reason I do so,
11 because of what I consider my effort to try to be
12 accurate.
13 Now, is there anything you want to ask me
14 or anything you would like to say before we get
15 started?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Let me talk to Mr. Pitta, have you heard
18 what I have had to say?
19 MR. PITTA: I have.
20 MR. MACK: Anything you would like to
21 add or ask about before we get started?
22 MR. PITTA: One question. You
23 referenced a Boom report. Will Mr. Hanley be
24 questioned about anything contained in that report?
25 MR. MACK: I hadn't planned to.
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2 Q. Have you ever had interaction with Boom
3 Construction?
4 A. No.
5 MR. PITTA: I haven't seen or read the
6 report. If you could provide me a copy, if you
7 could?
8 MR. MACK: I'd be happy to. It's on the
9 website. Before you leave today, I will give it to
10 you.
11 A. I haven't read it.
12 Q. There is a report that is a public
13 record, which went through the procedure, that is my
14 fourth report. Those are all public records that
15 are there. You are welcome, as any member of the
16 public to read it, and I'd hope Mr. Hanley will read
17 it, because there will be some things in there that
18 occur as well in Tri-Built, and may be some wisdom
19 to be gained.
20 One of the things that was said and will
21 be said in Tri-Built is that the District Council or
22 its constituent unions had opportunities to catch
23 these people well before my staff did what was
24 necessary to do and come out with the information.
25 So one of the things when I sit with your
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2 friends Mr. Rothman and Mr. Weisman and say to them
3 you could spend less energy being upset with what I
4 say and more energy saying how do I avoid another
5 report like this coming out, what can I do for my
6 business agents, or what procedures can we implement
7 so that we catch these situations rather than the
8 outside.
9 If there is wisdom to be gained, that
10 might be something. The Boom report is a public
11 document. You might want to read it yourself, just
12 because it's on your website.
13 So let's start. I am going to ask you
14 about a number of jobs, but I want to establish for
15 the judge who you are, give me a little summary what
16 your job is, how long you have been a carpenter, how
17 you have become what you are and what are your
18 responsibilities as a business manager at 157.
19 A. What do you want first?
20 Q. When did you become a union carpenter?
21 A. 1970 or 1971.
22 Q. And you were a member of what local?
23 A. 257.
24 Q. How long were you a journeyman carpenter?
25 A. 20 years, I guess.
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2 Q. And --
3 A. I have been an officer like 15 years,
4 well, 14.
5 Q. First of all, tell me what happened to
6 257.
7 Where is 257 today?
8 A. 257 is no more.
9 Q. What happened to it?
10 A. It was, what would you say, combined with
11 another local, 135.
12 Q. When did that happen, approximately?
13 A. Was that '95? I am not sure.
14 Q. Give me a ballpark.
15 A. I think '95, '96.
16 Q. 135 and 257?
17 A. Yes.
18 I wasn't there.
19 Q. Where were you?
20 A. I was working.
21 Q. Where were you working?
22 A. On high-rise construction.
23 Q. You were not a carpenter at the time?
24 A. I was a carpenter.
25 Q. Not a union member?
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2 A. Yes, I was a union member. Working on
3 high rise. Concrete.
4 Q. When did 135 and 257 -- what happened to
5 them? Why aren't they around today? In your own
6 words.
7 A. The international came in.
8 Q. I am not asking for a detailed legal
9 explanation. I want to get your view what happened
10 to those locals.
11 A. The international came in. They took
12 over the whole District Council at the time and I
13 was in the District Council. I was just there six
14 months.
15 International came in, threw all the
16 executive committee out. I went back to work the
17 week after.
18 Q. You were a member of what local?
19 A. 257.
20 I don't know what they did. How they did
21 it, I don't know. International, I don't know how
22 they did it.
23 Q. So what happened, you are not a member of
24 257 today? You are the business manager of 157?
25 A. Right.
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2 Q. How did that happen, what happened?
3 A. I think they were combined by McCarren,
4 who is our general president.
5 Years later, I ran for office at 157.
6 Q. When did you run for office at 157?
7 A. 2000.
8 Q. Is it fair for me to assume you were
9 elected?
10 A. I was elected.
11 Q. You were elected as business agent?
12 A. No, I was elected as president.
13 Q. How did you evolve into your status
14 today?
15 A. I was still working as president. Then I
16 got appointed from EST.
17 Q. EST at the time was?
18 A. Mike Forde.
19 Q. When?
20 A. I think maybe March 2000, maybe April.
21 Q. You were appointed by EST Forde in
22 approximately 2000, I am not holding you to any
23 specific date, to be what, a business manager?
24 A. Business manager.
25 Q. Were you given particular instruction or
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2 direction other than to be a good business manager?
3 A. That's about it.
4 Q. Did he say I want you to do this, I want
5 you to do that?
6 A. No, just do your work. I was a business
7 agent before, so I knew a little bit about what to
8 do.
9 Q. So you have been a business manager of
10 157 since 2000?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, in terms of training and/or guidance
13 with respect to performing your duties as business
14 manager concerning the subject of possible
15 wrongdoing or corruption on the job site, have you
16 received any training on that subject?
17 Do you understand that question? It's a
18 long question.
19 A. Do it again.
20 Q. Since you have been business manager of
21 157, have you received any training that prepared
22 you for dealing with corruption or wrongdoing issues
23 within the jurisdiction of 157?
24 A. No. I got training from you, if we find
25 anything wrong, report it to you or report it to the
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2 director of operations.
3 Q. Do you recall receiving from the District
4 Council something to the business agents within,
5 say, the last year, that gave certain suggestions as
6 to the types of methods or methodology that would be
7 helpful in dealing with wrongdoing issues?
8 A. I don't remember. Did you send us
9 something? Yes, I think you did.
10 Q. I don't want to give you an answer. I am
11 sure counsel will ask you to take a look at that
12 document in the future.
13 A. All them things, about like putting jobs,
14 give everybody an assigned area, the business agent
15 reports, is that what you are talking?
16 Q. That's the general subject.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I know what was in writing, and your
19 counsel may at some time ask if you can't find it, a
20 copy of a several page document which goes through a
21 pretty long list of suggestions that would be
22 important to people, business agents as well as
23 yourself how to deal with, shall we say,
24 construction challenges. You may not wish to do a
25 lot of reading, but that might be helpful for the
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2 administration going forward.
3 MR. PITTA: Can I make a request when you
4 provide Boom, if you have a copy of that also?
5 A. I think I have a copy.
6 Q. You do.
7 Besides that written document, besides
8 the session that I had with you gentlemen given at
9 the school by District Council representatives as to
10 how to avoid corruption, wrongdoing challenges?
11 A. No, we had no training.
12 Q. What I would like to do is deal with
13 several jobs. There would be a number of questions
14 that I would have for you on the subject broader
15 than we talked about today, but my feeling is since
16 my time is short, meaning that I will be replaced
17 soon, I am going to focus on those subjects which I
18 have directly in mind, but I don't want you to think
19 I wouldn't have questions about other 157 jobs that
20 have come up on the radar screen from time to time.
21 I want to focus on a couple matters that
22 I would like to get at least your side of. First
23 one deals with the allegation by a gentleman that I
24 know you have a positive opinion of and I have a
25 positive opinion of, and that is Anthony Arguelles,
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2 not his brother Steven. Mr. Arguelles has testified
3 about a particular job that he was working at for
4 L&D Installers.
5 You are familiar with that contract?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That was a job that occurred near
8 Broadway in the period April through June of 2000.
9 So my first question is: Were you in the
10 office in April through June 2000?
11 A. I just said I was there maybe March,
12 April, yes, I think so.
13 Q. Do you know who Anthony Arguelles was?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Anthony Arguelles has been in 157 for
16 sometime?
17 A. Yes, I don't know how long, but, yes.
18 Q. Do you remember having a conversation
19 with him concerning a job for L&D during that time
20 period?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Now, his testimony was that he had a
23 conversation with you, and that he was not, it was a
24 job that in the world that I have become somewhat
25 familiar with running under the radar no appointed
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2 shop stewards, no shop steward reports. In fact,
3 our review of that job, in so far as we have it,
4 there are no shop steward reports and no assigned
5 shop steward.
6 So the question I have is: Do you
7 remember having a situation like that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Back in April of 2000 or April through
10 June of 2000, would you have not taken action to see
11 that job did have a properly appointed shop steward?
12 A. I would have put a steward there, yes.
13 Q. That seems to have been the obligation
14 and goal of the business agent and managers?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. Certainly back in 2000?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. Have you talked to Anthony Arguelles
19 about this situation?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. As a result of those discussions, what is
22 your opinion of what happened there?
23 A. As a matter of fact, he came, he was
24 waiting for me down the hall one day, I said
25 Anthony, I am not mad at you. I said I don't even
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2 remember you going to the job over there.
3 I said, I don't know what you are talking
4 about. That's the truth. I seen him outside, I
5 went to that job, I said there, I shouldn't have did
6 it. I said I don't even remember you going there.
7 So I don't know what he is saying.
8 MR. PITTA: Can we get a time frame?
9 Q. Is this conversation a couple of weeks
10 ago?
11 A. Couple of weeks ago, right.
12 Q. Where was that conversation with Anthony?
13 A. Right outside in the hall.
14 Q. Your hall at 157?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What did Anthony say and what did you
17 say?
18 A. He said, "I don't want you being mad."
19 I said, "I am not mad at you."
20 He said, "But I said you sent me to a
21 job."
22 I said, "I never sent you nowhere." I
23 never did.
24 Q. You know Anthony and I know Anthony.
25 A. Right.
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2 Q. What is your opinion, did he lie to me
3 under oath? Is he making it up?
4 A. I don't know. I didn't send him to no
5 job. I would send a steward.
6 Q. This conversation you had with Anthony
7 recently, was anyone else present?
8 A. Yes, his brother.
9 Q. Steven?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What did Steven say, if anything?
12 A. I told him, because I heard rumors from
13 outside that he took cash. I said, "You are on your
14 fuckin' own. What are you doing that for?" Because
15 he said he was working on the job he never reported.
16 That's another thing, I said, "Steve, you
17 are crazy. They are going to throw you out of the
18 union if it goes that way."
19 Q. I don't know. The point I want to make
20 here is that I am pretty tough on people that come
21 in and I give them warnings when I put them under
22 oath.
23 A. That's exactly what happened that day.
24 Q. Obviously, what is major goal of mine,
25 and I think Mr. Forde and I, whatever our
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2 differences might be, would agree there can't be any
3 cash and there can't be unreported jobs, period.
4 A. I agree with you.
5 Q. I know you do.
6 What I am trying to do is figure out,
7 because L&D worked this job a lot of overtime, no
8 shop steward reports.
9 What happened here? How did this job run
10 without anyone noticing?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Is Anthony lying? This conversation
13 never occurred or you don't remember it?
14 In other words, he is saying, "I called
15 157. I informed you about the job." And he was
16 told, I am giving his direct -- I am not saying it's
17 true, I am telling you what he told me, I am looking
18 for your response, so that, that he should run, keep
19 an eye on the job but nothing else was done. I
20 asked him did you do any shop steward reports?
21 Negative.
22 Were there union people on the job?
23 A. I determined whether they were union
24 people or not, but I never did any reports.
25 Q. And he said he called up the hall?
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2 A. Yes. Walter, I don't remember it.
3 Q. Would it be fair to say if it had
4 occurred, if you had gotten a call from Anthony
5 Arguelles, "I am on the job and there isn't no shop
6 steward," what would you have done?
7 A. I would have sent a steward and I would
8 have called the contractor, too.
9 Q. Are you saying you don't recall, because
10 he said called up frequently. Not just once, it was
11 number of times.
12 BY MR. SOBOCIENSKI:
13 Q. In fairness to Billy, what Anthony
14 testified to, he said you had told him there was a
15 lot of work at this building of unknown address and
16 that he should go down, try to shape up work?
17 A. Who was at the building? I don't know.
18 Q. We are going to get to that. L&D is
19 going to be subpoenaed to come in here. There is no
20 question there was a job there and Anthony did it.
21 There is also no question, there was no
22 assigned shop steward and no shop steward report.
23 So, of course, what concerns me is the sworn
24 testimony that you had a hand in either sending him
25 to the job and had a hand in knowing the job was
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2 ongoing. So I want to make certain that, for
3 instance, if you had made a request to send a shop
4 steward or called it in, I would encourage you to
5 find out the identity of this job and see if there
6 is a record anywhere that reflects it came in to 157
7 and you did something, or maybe somebody else.
8 I want to make sure you have exhausted
9 every avenue to understand what happened here.
10 A. Go ahead.
11 Q. That's something --
12 A. If he called, "I am on the job, L&D," I
13 would send Guy or called Mike or Gary, one of the
14 owners.
15 Q. So I should take it that at this time you
16 don't recall it occurring?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And despite it occurring, because if it
19 had occurred, you would have taken direct action?
20 A. Yes, particularly L&D. They usually do
21 call in their jobs. You do catch them, you catch
22 all these guys, but they usually call the jobs in.
23 Q. We are going to get records and I think
24 District Council is going to get records, but right
25 now there are no shop steward reports of any kind
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2 for that job.
3 MR. MACK: Let me go off the record.
4 (Recess taken.)
5 (Discussion held off the record.)
6 MR. MACK: Let's go back on.
7 A. That's the year 2000, I just got in. I
8 am not making excuses. When I took over, we put
9 better records into it.
10 Q. That's fair. I have to tell you it is
11 2000, the allegation that is hanging out there?
12 A. I was just hanging off a goddamn building
13 the week before and I just got in. I don't
14 remember.
15 Q. Let me say that, in my view, this is an
16 outstanding allegation and that may be all the
17 answer you need to have. I am not disciplining, I
18 am saying it's one of those things. I have
19 confidence --
20 A. I feel bad that it got away on me.
21 That's what I am saying.
22 Q. There will be evidence. All I am
23 encouraging you to do, insofar as you and counsel
24 have the power, authority or meaning to do so, make
25 sure there wasn't somebody else who was there at the
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2 time or there was some other explanation so I have
3 your side.
4 The call never came in or it went to
5 someone else. That's for you to tell me. I am
6 inviting you to do that.
7 MR. PITTA: Mr. Mack, for the record, we
8 have not yet determined when it was the job was
9 performed through records.
10 MR. MACK: No, but we will have those
11 records.
12 MR. PITTA: At that point, it may raise
13 other issues. You are relying solely on Anthony
14 Arguelles' testimony.
15 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: And Anthony Arguelles'
16 paystubs and benefit remittances.
17 MR. MACK: There is no question the job
18 occurred and he worked at L&D and there are no shop
19 steward reports.
20 MR. PITTA: But it was union job and
21 paid benefits for employees?
22 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: At least for Anthony
23 Arguelles.
24 MR. MACK: One of the things we are
25 looking at is who else was there and did they pay
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2 benefits for them.
3 MR. PITTA: Do you have any idea how big
4 a job --
5 MR. MACK: Big job, maybe 600 hours.
6 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Lots of overtime,
7 maybe 8 or 10 guys.
8 MR. MACK: It was a big job.
9 Q. Let's go to another topic here and we
10 will take a break in about 10 minutes and then I
11 will finish up. I am going to try to see that Mr.
12 Pitta makes his meeting without difficulty, but I
13 also want to do what I must do.
14 MR. PITTA: No need to rush on my
15 account.
16 (Discussion held off the record.)
17 MR. MACK: Back on the record.
18 Q. We talked about, this is a Boom-related
19 question, but not directly having to do with Boom
20 work.
21 At one time you visited me at the
22 anti-corruption committee meeting, and I asked you a
23 question dealing with membership and 157 practices,
24 okay, and about what procedures potential carpenter
25 or union members have to go through in order to
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2 become a member of your local.
3 I would like you to restate those for me
4 again today. In other words, what are the means
5 whereby --
6 A. They usually come from apprentice school
7 or they come through, they get a letter from a
8 contractor to become a full mechanic. We usually
9 try to keep them employed for one year.
10 Q. What do you want to say in the letter?
11 A. That they want to keep new members
12 employed for one year at least.
13 Q. Let me ask you fundamental questions
14 here.
15 If an unskilled carpenter who did not go
16 through the apprentice program wanted to become a
17 member of 157, would it be sufficient simply to
18 bring in a letter, "So-and-so contractor is willing
19 to employ me for a year," would that get you into
20 the local if you had no carpentry skills at all?
21 A. I wouldn't know if he had no carpentry
22 skills.
23 Q. You could require a letter --
24 A. It says, "I want to employ this man as a
25 full mechanic." If the contractor is willing to pay
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2 him.
3 Q. In other words, it's sufficient for the
4 membership that a contractor is willing to employ
5 the person in a carpentry type of environment; is
6 that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is there any other obligation of
9 membership?
10 I am asking this question with respect
11 to, let's say the time period of the last three
12 years. You are a business manager, but I am trying
13 to find out what are the obligations or requirements
14 to become a member of 157?
15 A. Usually, it's somebody -- sometimes, it's
16 a father and son thing. They come in, too.
17 Q. What does the father have to say to get
18 the son in?
19 A. "Can I bring my son in? He is a
20 mechanic. He has been working a trade somewhere
21 else."
22 Q. Does that have to be in writing?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Who makes the decision whether or not
25 that membership should be approved?
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2 A. One of the business agents or myself.
3 Q. Now, let's say, again, using a
4 hypothetical, an axe murderer, has a narcotics
5 record and has this horrible record but I go to the
6 contractor who is my brother-in-law, I say, "Either
7 you write me a letter -- I have never lifted a
8 carpentry tool in my life and I have a criminal
9 record and I just got out of prison, I want you to
10 write a letter to let me become a union member,"
11 could I become a member?
12 A. If we don't know the contractor, say we
13 don't know --
14 Q. No, it's a contractor who I have
15 terrified into writing a letter, "You write this
16 letter or I will kidnap your family."
17 Is there any way to stop someone like
18 that from becoming a member of 157?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Can that person stay a 157 person for
21 whatever years, a decade, without anybody ever
22 challenging him?
23 A. I don't know what you mean by
24 "challenging him."
25 Q. I have no carpenter skills, I am a felon.
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2 A. He will never make it in the business.
3 Q. That's what I am asking you.
4 Let's say I have an organized crime
5 conviction, loan sharking or whatever it is, and I
6 don't have any skills and basically I can intimidate
7 somebody or have a relationship with some contractor
8 who is well known to write a letter saying, "Employ
9 Walter Mack in a trade for a year," is that all I
10 need to get into your union?
11 A. I don't know.
12 MR. PITTA: To quote a very famous
13 lawyer, My Cousin Vinny, that's a trick question.
14 Please forgive me. We can posit the same question
15 as lawyers and doctors. I think Billy's answer was
16 eventually a mechanic who is represented to be a
17 mechanic is going to show an inability to perform or
18 somebody will find out about his organized crime
19 connection or a rape conviction. I don't know,
20 outside the purview, outside a consent decree,
21 whether or not prior conviction of child rape, say,
22 deprives him or her of being a member of a union,
23 but there are practicalities.
24 MR. MACK: I am trying to explore them.
25 A. Let me put it this way. We are supposed
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2 to take members in. We try to discourage guys
3 coming into the local unless it comes with a letter.
4 Q. Let's say -- I will make it simpler. I
5 have an organized crime background, whatever is
6 necessary, because there is decree which says
7 organized crime association is a no-no for District
8 Council. So there is a court order to that effect.
9 I am trying to figure out in the course
10 of 157 operations when or how you determine that I
11 have an organized crime association, in other words,
12 or it comes to your attention, if ever? It may
13 never, at least I am understanding if I got a letter
14 from somebody, I would get in is what it boils down
15 to.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. As counsel said, in the course of time
18 you would find out about it.
19 How would you find out about it?
20 A. The guy won't be working.
21 Q. Let's say I go to the job site -- you
22 mean he won't go to the job site?
23 A. Who is going to pay him to work for
24 nothing, I don't know.
25 Q. What you are telling me, in other words
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2 if I go to the job site --
3 A. I am talking about the contractor paying
4 a guy a salary for doing nothing.
5 Q. Yes, that happens all the time.
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. You don't think it happens?
8 A. I don't think so.
9 Q. If it did, how would it come to your
10 attention?
11 A. It wouldn't come to my attention, right?
12 Q. I don't know. If there is a situation
13 where I have a relationship with somebody or I
14 terrified somebody, I am going to show up, is there
15 any mechanism at 157 that would expose me, the fact
16 that I am not honoring my union obligation as a
17 union member being a good carpenter?
18 A. They take an oath when you join the
19 union.
20 Q. Has that situation ever arisen at 157
21 where there is a person who should not be, because
22 of his record or methods or anything of that nature,
23 should not be permitted to be a member of 157?
24 A. Not that I know of.
25 Q. Now we talked about a particular, and you
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2 may remember this, a carpenter who was put on, and
3 this is what I would ask you to go back and double
4 check, for Boom, a guy named Mike Mullin.
5 Do you remember him?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. He was, produced a letter to me from Deco
8 Construction?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now what I am asking you to do here is,
11 because that witness has sworn under oath that he
12 has no linkage of any kind to Deco Construction,
13 never had, never presented him a letter, so what I
14 am asking you to do, because you furnished a letter
15 as background for permitting Mike Mullin, a Boom
16 person, into your local?
17 A. I did.
18 Q. You did or somebody in the local. I want
19 you to double-check that.
20 A. I will.
21 Q. Because the next question is, in other
22 words, for every individual that becomes a member of
23 157 is there a folder, a reliable document system in
24 place?
25 A. The girl usually holds onto the letter.
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2 Q. Let's me say that one of the reasons I
3 called your president to task today was on your
4 website there is a reference to a girl, and this is
5 a situation where the girl is older than the age of
6 10 and works as a secretary. I make it a habit of
7 trying to discourage working men referring to women
8 employees as girls. I try to encourage you, since
9 it's law, to refer to women the same way you would
10 refer to a carpenter. You don't refer to office
11 personnel as girls.
12 I think your counsel would agree that's
13 not favored usage in the marketplace today. But
14 what I am asking basically is this: Do you have a
15 reliable system for maintaining those records,
16 whatever they are, that refer to the membership
17 application of people in your local?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what I am asking you to do is to
20 double-check for Mr. Mullin, because the record as
21 it sits before me today is that Deco letter that you
22 furnished to me is not a letter that he ever -- he
23 never knew anybody from Deco, never had it, never
24 got it and never requested it.
25 MR. PITTA: For my benefit, Mr. Mack, I
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2 don't know who Mr. Mike Mullin is.
3 MR. MACK: He was an employee who worked
4 at the Boom site. A 157 member who I told Bill
5 testified that he walked in without any letter or
6 anything, talked to a person from the local, paid a
7 certain sum and became a member.
8 Q. And you have disputed that. I just want
9 to double-check because the letter you furnished me,
10 we can go back to him. He basically said, "That
11 letter has nothing to do with me, I don't know the
12 guy. I don't know the contractor."
13 A. Walter, I don't know the guy either. The
14 woman in the office, she looked it up. That day
15 from your office I called the office to find out if
16 Mike Mullin called the union. She got the letter.
17 Q. All I am asking you, Bill, is to
18 double-check that because again there is a challenge
19 to that and my feeling is I want to be careful
20 because it's something that is somewhat significant
21 to me and I just want to ensure that there may be
22 some issues as to control and are records being
23 maintained in a proper way and are records that are
24 being used records that apply to that member?
25 A. The woman holds on to all these letters
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2 if they come in to the union through a contractor.
3 Q. I am just asking you to double-check your
4 representations to me.
5 A. Want me to call her up now?
6 Q. No. I want you to take your time. You
7 do have the benefit of Mr. Pitta's assistance on
8 that question because I am going to ask more
9 important questions about the member in a few
10 moments and I want to make sure the same care and
11 attention is given to the subject. That's all I am
12 asking.
13 MR. MACK: I would like to take a 5
14 minute break and we will continue and move into a
15 couple more areas and then we will be done.
16 (Discussion held off the record.)
17 MR. MACK: Let's go back on the record.
18 Q. I am having copied those pages and you
19 will get yours back, Bill.
20 A. Thanks.
21 Q. If there is any, we will get to the job
22 that's in there in a few moments. Let me talk to
23 you about one of the primary reasons you are here
24 and that's Tri-Built Construction is what it boils
25 down to.
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2 Do you remember the location of any job
3 sites that Tri-Built worked under the jurisdiction
4 of 157?
5 A. Only one is Randalls Island.
6 Q. Why don't you in your own words tell me
7 about that job site, recognizing that having been
8 through WH 10, I have only found a few shop steward
9 reports for that job site and I have no other
10 records pertaining to it.
11 So I guess if you would explain to me
12 what happened there on that site.
13 A. I don't know what happened on that site.
14 Q. Explain to me what occurred such that
15 there is not any reason to know or you have no
16 knowledge about what happened.
17 A. I have no knowledge what happened on the
18 site.
19 Q. Why is that? Just explain it to me.
20 A. I never visited the site.
21 Q. When you say you, I don't want focus this
22 solely on you. There are other business agents that
23 worked for 157.
24 A. Right.
25 Q. I have no record of any business agent
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2 ever visiting Randalls Island job site.
3 To your knowledge, did any business
4 agent, you or anybody else, visit that site?
5 A. To my knowledge, no, nobody visited that
6 site.
7 Q. What's explanation for that? Why didn't
8 anybody visit?
9 A. Because we thought we had two good
10 stewards there.
11 Q. Explain to the judge. Recognize although
12 I know what you mean, Judge Haight or a Clerk will
13 be reading this and you need to expand on that a
14 little bit.
15 A. We thought we had an experienced steward
16 there and a steward we had known for a long time and
17 we had nothing to worry about. Randalls Island is a
18 little bit out of the way for us, so we thought that
19 was, that he had the job, he took care of the job
20 and we didn't have nothing to worry about on that
21 job.
22 Q. I have questioned him under oath, so has
23 District Council. There is no reason not to use his
24 name.
25 What is his name?
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2 A. John Scivoli.
3 Q. What was the basis of your opinion that
4 you had confidence in John Scivoli?
5 A. I know him 30 years and I know him
6 personally too.
7 Q. So what happened there? You just maybe
8 assumed -- maybe is the right word -- that he would
9 do the right job?
10 A. Yes, I did assume it, yes.
11 Q. I'm sorry, finish your answer.
12 A. I know it was wrong, but I did assume --
13 MR. PITTA: Once again, can we have a
14 time frame?
15 A. Yeah, when was that, I forget too.
16 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: We can look at the
17 steward reports.
18 Q. Job was over on March 20, 2003, and the
19 job start was September -- the shop steward reports
20 here say job started September 6, 2002.
21 So at least, I think there are more
22 reports, but the job was at least approximately six
23 months. So it actually occurred during the time of
24 my appointment.
25 A. We were under an understanding it wasn't
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2 an ongoing job. It was on and off. That's what he
3 was telling us.
4 Q. This is what I want you to tell me. Tell
5 me --
6 A. There was a fire house or fire training
7 facility that they would work on. Then they would
8 leave for a while, I don't know how long, then they
9 will go back, leave for a while, then go back.
10 Q. That's based on what information?
11 A. The information from the steward.
12 Q. John Scivoli?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, we have a lot of information. We
15 have taken the sworn testimony of Mr. Scivoli and we
16 have a pretty good idea of what happened, and you
17 will get a chance to read his testimony at some
18 point to find out what really happened.
19 Okay. But basically what we are asking
20 is: Did you ever question him about the job, or
21 did you or somebody working for you ever question
22 him about the job?
23 A. Not really.
24 Q. I know the answer to this, but I want to
25 make sure it's clear, did you or anyone working for
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2 you ever visit the job site?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Was there a review with Mr. Scivoli of
5 the accuracy of his shop steward reports, meaning
6 did he bring his reports and have a sit-down with
7 the business agent?
8 A. He did bring his reports in.
9 Q. Who did he bring the reports to?
10 A. I don't know. Yes, Danny, okay.
11 MR. PITTA: Mr. Mack, according to the
12 steward weekly payroll report, the business agent
13 assigned to the site was Daniel DeMarato.
14 Q. Did you ever have conversation with Mr.
15 DeMarato about the site and what was he doing to
16 justify his assignment to the site?
17 A. I don't remember.
18 Q. I mean, within 157, what does it mean,
19 this is relatively recent, that a business agent is
20 assigned to a job site? What's that supposed to
21 mean?
22 A. You are supposed to go visit the job
23 site. The big ones first, the ones that you give us
24 that we have to go, and ones that we didn't think
25 that we had to worry about, because we had a shop
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2 steward that we trusted there.
3 Q. There may be lesson learned there.
4 A. There is a lesson learned.
5 Q. It is not the first time that a business
6 agent or someone told me that I trusted the steward?
7 A. I understand that.
8 Q. The question I am asking you as business
9 manager, did you ever have a conversation with Danny
10 DeMarato, Danny, what's the story here, what
11 happened?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Why not?
14 A. Afterwards, yes.
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. I thought John was okay. He knows John a
17 long time, too. We were very surprised about the
18 whole thing.
19 Q. I am sure that's true.
20 A. We were.
21 Q. So did Danny, I know I am asking hearsay
22 question, but there is no reason why not to because
23 you are the business manager, did Danny himself
24 explain, or maybe you just told me why he didn't go
25 to job site.
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2 A. I just told you, yes.
3 Q. I want to make sure I got it all.
4 In other words, did Danny explain to you
5 why he didn't at least visit the site one time even
6 just to check it out?
7 A. Right. He was doing other jobs and he
8 thought Randalls Island is a little bit, it is not
9 really, it's in Manhattan, but it's out of our way.
10 We thought the job was good.
11 Q. Are you telling me by making that
12 statement that it was inconvenient to go there?
13 A. No, he could have made it there, but we
14 thought the job was good. And he kept saying it
15 wasn't an ongoing job, it was on and off. When he
16 would go back, he would come in, yes, I am back
17 there.
18 He would bring the steward sheets in, I
19 am back to work over there. I don't know how long.
20 We will be on and off.
21 Q. Was it your practice at 157 to make
22 decisions about whether or not you'd visit a site
23 based upon your perception of whether the shop
24 steward was a reliable one or not?
25 A. A lot of times, yes.
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2 Q. Again, if there is anything that has been
3 shown by both Boom and the Tri-Built situation is
4 that you need to have ability to check --
5 A. We are busy doing your reports, too.
6 Where we had 9 to 13 guys, 9 guys going up and down
7 looking for 3 guys Sheetrocking, at a 52-story
8 building that I walked up and down all the time.
9 Q. I'm not saying there haven't been
10 excellent examples, and I do think there are
11 methodologies here.
12 A. There are a certain amount of jobs that
13 we have to do.
14 MR. PITTA: Mr. Mack, how many jobs are
15 we talking about? How many man-hours on this
16 Randalls Island job?
17 MR. MACK: We will give it to you, I am
18 not going to give it to you before the report, but
19 there are much more than the shop steward report.
20 John Scivoli already admitted he took cash and kept
21 carpenters off the sheet. There is no question
22 about culpability of the shop steward.
23 A. And took cash, too?
24 Q. Yes. You will read about that in a few
25 weeks.
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2 And Tri-Built's owners have, in fact,
3 admitted that they have paid him cash.
4 A. I don't even know the owners.
5 Q. You will know about them in a few weeks.
6 In a sense, this is a job site in which there was
7 significant wrongdoing in terms of the inaccurate
8 reports and cash on the job admitted by the steward
9 and the owners.
10 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: And engineered his own
11 dispatch.
12 A. What?
13 Q. He arranged that he be dispatched to the
14 site because of the perception by the owners that he
15 could be corrupt.
16 MR. PITTA: You're talking about John
17 Scivoli?
18 MR. MACK: Yes.
19 A. How did he get dispatched there?
20 Q. By skill and manipulation. You will read
21 about it. Right now, I am trying to find out why
22 Tri-Built was able to get away -- because any visit
23 to the site at almost any time would have
24 demonstrated to an observant business agent that Mr.
25 Scivoli was not giving accurate reports. I am
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2 trying to find out why there was not one visit.
3 You assumed John Scivoli could be
4 trusted.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is there any reason other than that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Because it will be my conclusion that any
9 visit to the site would have revealed Mr. Scivoli
10 was not providing you accurate information.
11 So my feeling is it would have been
12 apparent to any visitor to the site that the shop
13 steward reports were inaccurate.
14 MR. PITTA: You had no knowledge of
15 corrupt activity on behalf of John Scivoli?
16 THE WITNESS: No.
17 MR. PITTA: The first time you heard
18 about John Scivoli taking cash was today?
19 THE WITNESS: Cash, yes. I knew he
20 compromised the job. I didn't know about the cash.
21 I knew he was taking off. That was rumors.
22 MR. MACK: You will read about it in a
23 week or so.
24 A. That I heard from scuttlebutt.
25 Q. That's why I am trying to --
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2 A. Not at the time. Afterwards I heard.
3 Q. I hope not.
4 I will ask the question: Was there any
5 inkling by Danny or you that something was wrong at
6 the job site?
7 A. No.
8 Q. That it was worthy of a visit to find
9 out?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Were you aware of Tri-Built's reputation
12 within the District Council for being a cash outfit?
13 A. No.
14 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Let me ask a question.
15 MR. MACK: Sure.
16 BY MR. SOBOCIENSKI:
17 Q. Is it 157, yourself or any business
18 agents other than those dispatchers that Scott
19 Danielson asks the business agents to certify if a
20 contractor calls in for a steward with a particular
21 set of skills, do business agents address that? Do
22 they look at those skills and determine whether or
23 not they are necessary if they are not the ones who
24 send it in?
25 A. For contractor?
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2 Q. I didn't phrase it very well.
3 Scott Danielson sends certain dispatchers
4 to business agents to certify?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. In case of John Scivoli's dispatch to
7 this job site, it wasn't sent in by Scott but the
8 contractor itself, Tri-Built, requested a certain
9 set of skills, so the business agent didn't have a
10 part in those skills.
11 Does the business agent ever look at
12 that, address the skills?
13 A. What was it, Sheetrock?
14 Q. One was laboratory furniture, which is
15 probably what got him the job.
16 A. Really?
17 BY MR. MACK:
18 Q. Yes. How much laboratory furniture do
19 you think Randalls Island fire academy --
20 A. I don't know. I wasn't there.
21 Q. In hindsight, 20/20 -- you will read what
22 I have to say. I think there may be lessons for
23 everybody, but my viewpoint is that laboratory
24 furniture, even to me, the ignorant lawyer, should
25 have sent some type of signal that something was
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2 going on. Why do you need laboratory furniture at a
3 building that you are burning down all the time?
4 There is some basis for that skill. There wasn't,
5 and that's how the contractor got a compliant shop
6 steward who he could corrupt.
7 A. We have been doing all that now.
8 Q. It's less likely to happen now because
9 you couldn't put on laboratory furniture without a
10 30-day lag, so if Gary Rothman were here on behalf
11 of the District Council, at least that portion of
12 this complaint by you would not occur today.
13 But there is a side of me that says to
14 you gee, here is a job that they don't go to in
15 which laboratory furniture is placed to get a guy
16 there, John Scivoli, who had just worked for
17 Tri-Built, how much do you need for the bells to
18 start ringing?
19 A. I don't even think we looked at shop
20 steward skills. It never came back to us either.
21 Q. You would have gotten a copy?
22 A. I mean, I don't think we looked at the
23 skills.
24 Q. But laboratory furniture?
25 A. We don't know it was on there.
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2 Q. In other words, are you getting all the
3 documents, are you throwing the documents away that
4 might help.
5 For instance, I will say in the report
6 that sometimes there is a red flag waved in front of
7 your face that something is worth looking at. I
8 would be humble enough to suggest that laboratory
9 furniture, when that dispatch came in, somebody
10 should have said this is a fire academy, what are
11 they doing, laboratory work out there? Maybe they
12 are. Let's go see.
13 A. Was it on the dispatch sheet?
14 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: That's my best
15 recollection.
16 A. It said laboratory furniture on these
17 sheets here?
18 MR. PITTA: Has Mr. Scivoli made any
19 allegation or has anyone from Tri-Built made any
20 allegation that --
21 MR. MACK: That would be a different
22 format.
23 MR. PITTA: Can I finish my question?
24 Has Mr. Scivoli or any officer or
25 proprietor of Tri-Built made an allegation that
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2 Scivoli was working in concert with a representative
3 of Local 157?
4 MR. MACK: No. If so, this would be a
5 different interview.
6 What I am dealing with in this situation
7 is trying to find out why this could occur, and
8 perhaps suggesting to your client that there are
9 things that you have to be more careful about going
10 forward. This will not put the District Council's
11 anti-corruption program in the most positive life.
12 Tri-Built was paying cash to carpenters
13 for almost a decade. Almost a decade. We have the
14 checks and we have admissions that they were paying
15 cash. So I am just saying it's unfortunate that Mr.
16 Scivoli was in that situation.
17 A. I didn't run into them too much,
18 Tri-Built. I will be honest with you.
19 Q. Let's move on.
20 Is there anything else about this job in
21 fairness to your local or to your business agents,
22 to yourself, that should be said to explain how this
23 occurred on your watch that I haven't asked you
24 about?
25 A. No.
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2 Q. If you think of something in the future,
3 let me know.
4 A. I will, of course.
5 Q. I don't want to be unfair, but I want to
6 be certain there may be lessons. Let's talk about
7 Houston and Christie. Maybe one way to proceed
8 here, what was your first awareness as business
9 manager for 157 of this Prince job? How did it
10 first come to your attention?
11 A. I knew the job was going on, Laquilla did
12 the foundation, and I was down there for the
13 foundation, I went to see them down there. Sabarro
14 was doing the upper structure and I didn't know
15 Prince was going to do it.
16 Q. When did it first come to your attention
17 that Anthony Arguelles was moving from one Prince
18 job to another Prince job?
19 A. That came to my attention, I don't know
20 when it did. When did he get the job? I think it
21 may have been on a Friday in the summertime, because
22 I was out in Long Island and Freddy Kennedy said
23 dispatch came over that Anthony Arguelles got the
24 job. Then a couple of minutes or an hour later, I
25 got a call, Bill, I got dispatched to Prince. Okay.
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2 Q. What happened?
3 A. This was late in the afternoon.
4 Q. Did it occur to you there might be some
5 question how he was able to move from one Prince job
6 to another Prince job?
7 A. We didn't even call the job in. You
8 know, we didn't call the job in and he was there. I
9 went to the job, I don't know what day it was. He
10 was there, he was working with some other guys, I
11 don't think it was going to be the general foreman.
12 It was another guy there. They were doing
13 protection.
14 MR. PITTA: Can we get a time frame?
15 MR. MACK: I will look at your exhibit.
16 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: August last year.
17 MR. PITTA: 2004.
18 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: August or September,
19 maybe even October, fall of 2004.
20 A. Look, I didn't question the job. He got
21 sent from Council. I seen it, I don't know how --
22 you know.
23 Q. Let me give you a viewpoint of August 23,
24 '04. Right in your exhibit, the third to last page,
25 it's the protection foreman on the job and Anthony
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2 is there. It's a shop steward report. I can find
3 it for you in your set.
4 MR. PITTA: Why don't you just show me
5 your document?
6 MR. MACK: Okay.
7 Q. What I have shown to counsel is from my
8 collection of exhibits --
9 A. Wait a second. This is the first report?
10 Q. What pay week does it say?
11 A. Pay week start 10/3/04. Date job started
12 8/23, it says.
13 Q. Right.
14 A. Okay, I am just thinking when I went
15 there, there were only 2 or 3 guys on the job. Not
16 all these men.
17 Q. I am just responding to counsel's
18 question as to the time frame. There is the time
19 frame starting August 2003.
20 One piece of information that has also
21 become fairly obvious to me, likelihood is
22 coincidental that a shop steward moves from one
23 contractor to the same contractor at another job
24 site is almost zero, unless something has happened.
25 That given the way shop stewards are
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2 assigned out, the likelihood that he would go to the
3 same contractor is very, very small.
4 So that's a red flag that should go up
5 under almost any circumstance, because the random
6 nature of the shop steward assignments, the
7 likelihood of one Prince job to another Prince job
8 is almost zero.
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Again, if it comes to your attention or
11 your business agents in the future that the shop
12 steward on a Prince job at one location is ending up
13 going immediately to another Prince job as shop
14 steward, it should occasion attention almost
15 immediately.
16 A. I know, but we don't send out the
17 stewards.
18 That's the list. I don't know what is
19 going on with the list.
20 Q. That's my point. In other words, going
21 forward, you know Anthony, you have known him for
22 years. There is no likelihood, almost zero, that he
23 could be a shop steward for Prince and move from one
24 to the other.
25 A. Me and Freddy said that to each other,
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2 how the hell did he get the job.
3 Q. Who?
4 A. Freddy Kennedy.
5 Q. What did he say?
6 A. The District Council called. Okay.
7 Q. What happened then? He got removed,
8 didn't he?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How did that happen?
11 A. I don't know. Did you remove him? You
12 found out something with him?
13 Q. I have no authority to remove a shop
14 steward.
15 A. I don't know who did.
16 Q. One of the things I encourage you to do
17 going forward as a manager of your local is one, be
18 sensitive to the reality that under almost no
19 circumstances can a shop steward for one contractor
20 move to be shop steward for the same contractor
21 without there being something worth looking at.
22 A. Tell me what was there to look at.
23 Q. It was a manipulated assignment, because
24 the contractor wanted the same shop steward to go
25 there. That's what the District Council determined
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2 and removed him, under some pressure and insight
3 from us as well.
4 It also turned out he was riding the
5 list.
6 A. That's what we did, we removed him.
7 Q. All I am saying, though, is that is
8 another indicator where you should be cautious.
9 Like laboratory furniture coming up on a dispatch,
10 there no likelihood of laboratory furniture being
11 used.
12 A. We are depending on Council -- the list.
13 We don't think they are getting the list wrong. I
14 said why is Anthony there. But it came from the
15 Council, he got all the paperwork. It came from the
16 Council.
17 Q. You can decide as business manager
18 whether you want to leave that issue to the District
19 Council or not. I would suggest in my absence that
20 you not. That you do your own.
21 A. How did you get from this job to that
22 job.
23 Q. Right. What happened here, Anthony? Did
24 you try to pull maneuver to move with this contract?
25 A. Wasn't he off? I mean, he had to be off.
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2 He didn't go from one job to the next, did he?
3 Q. He was still on the payroll when he was
4 assigned?
5 A. We don't know that.
6 Q. But you can find it out, is my point.
7 You can take ownership of your job sites. That's my
8 point here.
9 A. I got you.
10 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Let me add, Prince
11 requested this dispatch, too.
12 A. I don't know who called it in.
13 Q. Prince did.
14 All I am saying is this is not a
15 corruption issue, it's how do I run my local.
16 A. I take your advice, that's good, that's
17 good.
18 Q. Do you recall your participation when