UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
-------------------------------------------x
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
90 CIV 5722
-against- (CSH)
DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED
BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND
JOINERS OF AMERICA, et.al.,
Defendants
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Independent Investigator Interview
June 1, 2005
4:35 o'clock p.m.
Interview of MARTIN DEVEREAUX by the
Independent Investigator, Walter Mack, Esq., held
at the offices of Doar, Rieck & Mack, Esqs., 217
Broadway, 7th Floor, New York, New York
10007-2011, before Stewart Nissenbaum, a Shorthand
Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New
York.
TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
305 Madison Avenue 142 Willis Avenue
Suite 449 P.O. BOX 347
New York, N.Y. 10165 Mineola, N.Y. 11501
(212)349-9692 (516)741-5235
1 2
2 A P P E A R A N C E S :
3
4 DOAR RIECK & MACK, ESQS.
217 Broadway, 7th Floor
5 New York, New York 10007-2911
6 BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.
Independent Investigator
7
8
LAW OFFICES OF MICHAEL DOWD
9 420 Fifth Avenue, 25th Floor
New York, New York 10018-2729
10
BY: TERRENCE RANDELL, ESQ.
11
12
ALSO PRESENT:
13
DONALD SOBOCIENSKI
14
15 * * *
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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2 MR. MACK: Let's go on the
3 record.
4 Let me welcome you, and thank you
5 for being here late in the day. And let
6 me go through what Terry Randell, your
7 counsel, has heard before, but it is
8 somewhat different; so I want you to
9 listen carefully, because it is very
10 likely that, as a result of some of the
11 things you say to me today, I will be
12 finishing my Tri-Built report tomorrow,
13 and that really, in many respects, is
14 one of the main reasons why I have been
15 adamant with Mike Dowd and the District
16 Council, and Terry, that I want to see
17 you and give you an opportunity to
18 discuss with me some questions, and get
19 the benefit of your experience, based
20 upon what I know.
21 So, what I have decided to do
22 with respect to all the business agents
23 that have come before me, and a number
24 have, that I have taken the point of
25 view that as long as I continue to be
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2 the Independent Investigator, and a
3 representative of the Court, that unless
4 I feel that there's some criminal
5 culpability by a business agent, which I
6 do not, in your case, or any case of any
7 business agent, that rather than place
8 the business agent under oath and go
9 through the formalities that I do with
10 the shop stewards, journeymen and
11 apprentices, what I do is give you what
12 I call an obstruction of justice
13 warning, which is not too dissimilar
14 from perjury, but it means this: I
15 actually mean this, notwithstanding the
16 90 to 2 vote that most business agents
17 and delegates should share with me, my
18 purpose, is digging the facts out and
19 holding the employer accountable for
20 whatever has occurred. And therefore,
21 because I see the business agents,
22 whether they see me that way or not, as
23 colleagues in that fight, or in that
24 goal, that therefore, were a business
25 agent to lie to me or to mislead me, or
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2 intentionally withhold information with
3 the hope that I would be unsuccessful as
4 an agent of the Court, they would be
5 committing a crime of obstruction of
6 justice.
7 Because I do see them as allies
8 and as eager as I am to dig out the
9 facts, that I see no reason to impose
10 upon them a perjury, a perjury
11 admonition, because I, my hope is you
12 would want me to be doing exactly what
13 I'm doing in terms of the facts, and
14 reporting them.
15 Given the fact that I have no
16 disciplinary authority of any kind, I'm
17 basically a fact-gatherer and a reporter
18 of facts, to, at least I perceive, the
19 Court and to the parties. And it is
20 really up to them and the Court whether
21 they wish to take any action whatsoever.
22 Now being several years wiser,
23 would I agree to the same terms that
24 were set out in December 2002?
25 Unlikely. I put it down to a wisdom
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2 development on my part; I always learn
3 new things.
4 It would be ill-advised,
5 Mr. Randell, I'm sure, has advised you,
6 to not give me the information. The
7 only way you can have a problem with me,
8 as the Independent Investigator, is if
9 you would intentionally seek to deceive
10 me or withhold information. I don't
11 expect you to do that. I don't see any
12 reason why this shouldn't be a
13 relatively pleasant, if that's the right
14 word, encounter, in which you enlighten
15 me about things you know.
16 To summarize what I said, if you
17 were to intentionally deceive me,
18 withhold information, or lie to me, you
19 would be exposing yourself to a federal
20 charge of obstruction of justice, which
21 is something I'm sure you wouldn't want
22 to do.
23 My purpose today is to cover
24 primarily Tri-Built questions. As I
25 have said off the record before we
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2 started today, I do intend to ask you
3 some questions about ongoing matters
4 that I will be -- if I don't finish
5 them, I will be recommending to my
6 successor, who I'm sure will be more
7 competent than I. He may get three
8 votes at the end of his term, rather
9 than two. I wish him success. But I
10 will be recommending to that person,
11 when the judge appoints them, and during
12 the transition period, that whatever I
13 have not completed, that he complete,
14 and I would be making a report of every
15 matter I refer or discuss with my
16 successor, to the Government as well as
17 the Court, and maybe even to the
18 District Council, because of my feeling
19 that there are things left undone that
20 should be done.
21 And I would say specifically with
22 respect to Tri-Built, I make a very
23 significant point that there's much that
24 the Benefit Funds have to account for,
25 and they have not accounted for it, and
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2 I'm hoping that my successor take those
3 issues on.
4 To summarize what we talked
5 about, the judge has issued an Order
6 saying that the District Council is
7 within its rights to impose the
8 termination provision, but that I'm to
9 continue with all responsibilities until
10 the judge issues an Order appointing my
11 successor. I'm going to continue doing
12 that until basically my successor is
13 appointed, and then I'm trying to
14 convince my successor that some of these
15 issues are worth pursuit.
16 I want to go over basic things.
17 Anytime that you wish to talk to Terry
18 Randell today about any subject, all you
19 have to do is let me know, and you can
20 go outside and spend whatever time is
21 necessary to get the benefit of his
22 advice.
23 If I ask you a question which you
24 believe -- I don't believe I'm going to
25 ask such a question, but you think could
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2 tend to incriminate you personally, you
3 have a right here, although not -- maybe
4 not before the District Council, to
5 assert a Fifth Amendment privilege. You
6 can basically refuse on the basis that
7 it might tend to incriminate you. I
8 don't anticipate asking a question of
9 that nature.
10 You have experienced counsel
11 beside you, if you think that's the
12 right way to answer it, I would
13 encourage you to discuss it with
14 Mr. Randell beforehand, before you do
15 it. I do report every assertion of the
16 Fifth Amendment to the Court,
17 eventually, and to the prosecutor.
18 I'm going to mention to you, the
19 Silo Construction situation is something
20 that is ongoing as far, as I'm
21 concerned; the District Council has some
22 understanding of why I'm focused on it.
23 They should have an understanding, years
24 before, why any person in my job would
25 be focused on it. I do intend to make a
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2 criminal reference to a prosecutor
3 concerning aspects of Silo Construction.
4 I told the District Council that.
5 I don't believe that there's any
6 potential criminal, shall we say,
7 exposure by any carpenter or
8 representative of the carpenters, but I
9 do want to alert you that the Silo
10 Construction matter is something that
11 I'm sure will get scrutinized by
12 prosecutor's involved.
13 Of course, as I have said, I'm
14 just an investigator, I make
15 recommendations, I can't predict what
16 the judge will do, I can't predict what
17 the District Council will do, and I
18 certainly can't say what the prosecutor
19 would do.
20 The District Council should be
21 eager to assist me in digging out the
22 facts that I didn't dig out beforehand.
23 Maybe they did dig them out, and maybe
24 they didn't get reported.
25 Finally, Mr. Dowd, who has
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2 represented you, I know, for some time,
3 and who sent me a transmittal letter for
4 the documents I received today, dealt
5 with a topic that I just want to go over
6 very briefly. That's because the
7 District Council has made a point of at
8 least raising, maybe rhetorically, more
9 than anything else, a question of
10 whether or not Mike, he represents
11 Tri-Built Construction in the civil
12 case, can fairly represent you.
13 What I'm going to do is just mark
14 this letter that Mike sent me as a
15 transmittal today, as MD-1. MD just
16 means you; Martin Devereaux. It
17 concerns his representation or his
18 statement to me that he's represented
19 you for some time, and sees no conflict.
20 I don't know if you have seen that
21 letter or not. You should look at it,
22 because possible conflicts are issues
23 that lawyers have to deal with all the
24 time. You might take just a moment and
25 read that.
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2 (Transmittal letter from Mike
3 Dowd marked Exhibit MD-1.)
4 (Documents marked Exhibit MD-2.)
5 (Pause.)
6 MR. MACK: Let me just go over
7 why this is of some significance.
8 Mr. Dowd is representing
9 Tri-Built in various civil proceedings
10 in which the District Council is seeking
11 to obtain financial damages from them.
12 And you may know all of this, but I'm
13 just going to talk to you about it. And
14 the evidence that has been submitted to
15 me through subpoenas issued by the
16 judge, is basically cash payments to
17 carpenters on many, many Tri-Built
18 jobsites, basically from the mid '90s,
19 for a decade.
20 Basically, virtually every check
21 in these bank accounts reflects a
22 payment to a carpenter, although there
23 are other categories, but the primary
24 ones are carpenters being paid a non-
25 Collective Bargaining Agreement wage and
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2 benefit, or no benefit. So the numbers
3 are pretty staggering when you consider
4 they exist over a ten-year period, and
5 your President has indicated that
6 number, I think, is somewhere like $10
7 million, or something of that nature.
8 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Seven to ten.
9 MR. MACK: What it is, is
10 benefits owed to the Benefit Funds,
11 given Tri-Built's history of paying
12 cash.
13 When you go over the checks which
14 we have obtained through the Court, and
15 now I think are with the District
16 Council and its auditors, it is a very
17 large sum, there's a natural question,
18 you know, in other words, would Mike or
19 his partner, who Terry is, have an
20 interest in advising you to go soft on
21 Tri-Built, because they represented
22 Tri-Built in the 2001 situation; and
23 here they are representing you; and I'm
24 asking you questions which might be
25 critical of Tri-Built, or at least in
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2 the capacity of a report that will not
3 be complimentary of Tri-Built. That's
4 the theoretical conflict.
5 What Mike has said, and I've
6 taken the position, although in my past
7 as a prosecutor, I always didn't access
8 it, I had many more tools then, to
9 challenge conflicts, and I was pretty
10 good in figuring out when I was going to
11 challenge it or not. But in my job
12 here, I've taken the view that that
13 question is for the lawyer involved, and
14 for the witness. And if the witness
15 indicates happiness and contentment, and
16 the lawyer tells me in one form or
17 capacity that they have thought about
18 the potential conflict, and they don't
19 feel ethically it is an issue, that's
20 what Mike told me in this letter, you
21 leave it at that. Because who better to
22 decide who you want to represent you
23 than yourself? And most Courts do not
24 take kindly to imposing upon witnesses
25 or defendants, choice of lawyers; I
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2 certainly am not going to do that; I
3 think it very unlikely the judge would.
4 I have seen many worse potential
5 conflicts, in my course as Independent
6 Investigator, than this one.
7 So I'm basically, for the record,
8 going to ask, given at least an
9 awareness on your part, while
10 theoretically, the lawyer for Tri-Built
11 might have a conflict in advising you,
12 and having that explained to you, are
13 you willing to proceed with Mr. Dowd's
14 partner, Mr. Randell here, as your
15 lawyer?
16 MR. DEVEREAUX: Yes, I am.
17 MR. MACK: Terry, anything you
18 want to add to what I said?
19 MR. RANDELL: No. I will add for
20 the record, that Mr. Dowd has fully
21 informed Mr. Devereaux, prior to this
22 letter, of our representation of
23 Tri-Built, explained in general terms
24 the Tri-Built situation, which you have
25 just explained, and Mr. Devereaux had
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2 expressed his desire to continue with
3 Mr. Dowd as his counsel, or me, as his
4 partner; and that he did not feel that
5 there's a conflict sufficient to obtain
6 other counsel.
7 MR. MACK: The only time that
8 this -- the way that I have seen this
9 come back to haunt people, is that if it
10 turns out, and I say this, you know,
11 that basically you say something that is
12 untrue to me, because you're trying to
13 help Tri-Built -- I'm not suggesting you
14 are going to do it -- and I charge you
15 with lying to me or obstructing justice;
16 and you go back to the Court and say,
17 gee, that's not fair, because the lawyer
18 for Tri-Built was sitting by my side;
19 what do you expect me to do? You will
20 be unsuccessful. That is not a legal
21 defense. Your obligation is, no matter
22 who your lawyer is, once you've waived,
23 will be, to listen to my questions, and
24 answer them completely, to your best
25 ability; which you are going to do; am I
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2 correct?
3 MR. DEVEREAUX: Correct.
4 MR. MACK: I will try to be
5 reasonably precise today. I know you
6 don't want to know, but there probably
7 are a lot of other jobsites and people
8 that have come to my attention over the
9 course of time, but I know that I am a
10 lame duck, and my time is short. I'm
11 going to focus on what remains, what I
12 believe realistically I can complete in
13 the time remaining. I am trying to do
14 so efficiently.
15 If my question is unclear to you
16 in anyway, this is a relatively informal
17 situation, I have the famed and fabled
18 court reporter, Stewart Nissenbaum with
19 me today, because of my senility and
20 inability to remember what I say 24
21 hours later; and that's primarily for my
22 purpose.
23 I will be eventually appending a
24 copy of this transcript to my Tri-Built
25 report, although it will probably be
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2 sometime in the future, even if Mr.
3 Nissenbaum's expertise cannot produce
4 this tomorrow morning, you will get a
5 copy once there's a public record.
6 Mr. Randell may know this. I
7 actually have given a copy of my draft
8 report to the District Council. They
9 have until close of business, or,
10 actually, yesterday, to submit comments.
11 They have submitted only one, I think,
12 or two orally this morning to me. At
13 their request, I've given them 24 hours,
14 approximately, more.
15 I will be completing my Tri-Built
16 report, probably tomorrow, and filing it
17 with the Court on Friday; at which point
18 the District Council and the Government,
19 who gets a copy -- the Government
20 doesn't have a copy at the moment -- can
21 apply to the Court for amendments,
22 deletions, insertions, what have you.
23 And usually within approximately ten
24 days, the judge decides whether or not
25 he's going to make the report public.
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2 Every report I've done so far has been
3 made public.
4 Once it is public, anybody who
5 wants a copy of anything that's public,
6 it is yours to look at. I've filed a
7 number of reports. And what's going to
8 happen as a result of them, I cannot
9 predict. I'm only an investigator.
10 Having said all of what I said,
11 are there any questions either of you
12 gentlemen would like to ask me, or is
13 there anything on your mind before we
14 begin my rather focused questioning
15 today?
16 Mr. Randell?
17 MR. RANDELL: No, sir.
18 MR. MACK: Do you want to raise
19 any question about what you have been
20 informed by the District Council, or
21 anything at all that we talked about
22 beforehand?
23 MR. RANDELL: No, I do not.
24 MR. MACK: Mr. Devereaux, sir, do
25 you have anything else you would like to
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2 ask, or a question you would like to
3 clarify?
4 MR. DEVEREAUX: No.
5 MR. MACK: Mr. Sobocienski, who
6 is the brains of the Independent
7 Investigator outfit, may ask a few
8 questions here and there, to avoid my
9 general incompetence ceiling. But
10 that's why he is here, and may have some
11 questions as well.
12 What I've given you, which may be
13 of assistance to you, are copies of what
14 was furnished by your counsel to me
15 today. I just received it. And so I
16 will be referring to them, some by
17 dates, and what have you.
18 I also have given -- Mr. Randell
19 has it, you can look at them if you
20 wish, the Tri-Built Construction,
21 basically shop steward reports for
22 Fordham University, which we received
23 from the District Council and which
24 Mr. Dowd told me he did not have, but he
25 had been told the District Council
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2 already furnished them.
3 If you wish, at any time, to look
4 at those, and you may wish to do so with
5 respect to the dates, they are available
6 at your right hand.
7 MR. RANDELL: I would like to
8 interject that the reason why we were
9 not in possession of the shop steward
10 reports that you have, relating to
11 Tri-Built, is because shop steward
12 reports do not go to business agents.
13 It is my understanding that the shop
14 steward maintains one copy, and any
15 other copies, if there are any, they go
16 to the District Council, which
17 Mr. Devereaux did not have access to;
18 and therefore, he did not have copies to
19 provide to you.
20 MR. MACK: I'm not going to
21 criticize whether he had them or not.
22 608, 608 North, needs a document
23 retention practice. They are not clear
24 at the moment. Basically, this is a
25 point I've made indelibly clear to
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2 Mr. Rothman, that basically there's a
3 business agent presumably responsible
4 for the job and the accuracy of the shop
5 steward reports in terms of what's
6 there, and there's no reason why a full
7 set of the shop steward reports should
8 not be maintained at the local union's
9 office; and some local unions do.
10 Although there are significant
11 questions in the Tri-Built report as to
12 what I consider loss of control of shop
13 steward reports and inability to account
14 for them, when you read the report, and,
15 you know, Gary Rothman and many others
16 are reading the report, because it is a
17 draft and they have to comment on it,
18 there is no reason why 608 or 608 North
19 cannot maintain a copy of their own.
20 MR. RANDELL: Mr. Devereaux may
21 have seen them. He was never a person
22 to which an actual copy would have been
23 provided to him. That's why we had
24 advised you that the shop steward
25 reports needed to be obtained from the
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2 Local.
3 MR. MACK: Okay. Not from the
4 Local, from the District Council. Are
5 you distinguishing Mr. Devereaux from
6 the local, or --
7 MR. RANDELL: We made the
8 distinction simply because the business
9 agent reports that Mr. Devereaux
10 produced, are his own copies of reports.
11 He would have had to remove records to
12 provide you with any shop steward
13 reports. He felt it was a better
14 practice to ask for what's on file.
15 MR. MACK: Okay. My feeling is
16 -- I have had differing accounts of
17 where the shop steward reports are.
18 MR. DEVEREAUX: May I say
19 something?
20 MR. MACK: Why don't you, please,
21 Mr. Devereaux.
22 MR. DEVEREAUX: The process of
23 the steward sheets have changed,
24 differently in the last year. There was
25 one point where the steward's reports
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2 went directly to the District Council
3 from the steward. What year that was, I
4 don't have that.
5 MR. MACK: When did that end, if
6 you remember?
7 MR. DEVEREAUX: I don't remember,
8 Walter. But there was a time when all
9 those sheets from the steward went
10 directly to the District Council.
11 MR. MACK: And did it not stop at
12 the local?
13 MR. DEVEREAUX: It did not stop
14 at the local. Right now, all steward
15 sheets from all the jobs with the agent
16 in charge of that job, at his office,
17 are on file for at least two years.
18 MR. MACK: What I've said --
19 MR. DEVEREAUX: Back in 2000 and
20 2001, those sheets could have very well
21 been sent to the District Council
22 directly; I'm not 100 percent sure.
23 MR. MACK: A question raised in
24 the Tri-Built report --
25 MR. DEVEREAUX: There were some
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2 years there, but that definitely took
3 place.
4 MR. MACK: And you think that
5 that would have included 2000 and 2001?
6 MR. DEVEREAUX: I don't know.
7 MR. MACK: In other words, the
8 fact that you don't have any Tri-Built
9 reports for the Fordham steward reports,
10 for the year 2001, would give some
11 reason to believe that that was the
12 period --
13 MR. DEVEREAUX: Not necessarily.
14 MR. MACK: Explain it to me.
15 MR. DEVEREAUX: We do not keep
16 them because our paperwork picked up too
17 much. Back in 2000, 2001, we already
18 got rid of those sheets, because our
19 file cabinet can't take the current load
20 of ongoing jobs, unless we want to fill
21 up the office with files, and nobody can
22 find anything; you know, we don't have
23 that capability.
24 MR. MACK: What I've said to the
25 famous Mr. John Greaney, is that whoever
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2 has the interest of Local 608 at heart,
3 should consider very carefully what the
4 document retention policies should be.
5 Because, for instance, as I learned from
6 one of your colleagues, that there is a
7 policy that after a year, destroy them.
8 That was his understanding of what the
9 current rule is, on notes.
10 I said that's a no-no, and that
11 basically when your credibility is being
12 measured against somebody else's who has
13 records and notes and contemporaneous
14 records, and investigations often don't
15 complete in a year, it is going to be
16 the business agent who is on the
17 defensive, because he has no fundamental
18 basis available to him to support his
19 actions on a particular day. Whereas,
20 the individual who has come forward and
21 said this happened and that happened,
22 here's my book or here are my notes, or
23 whatever records I have, is going to put
24 the business agent at a disadvantage,
25 and it is probably an imprudence, given
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1 27
2 that the Labor Department and the
3 Government specify a term of years that
4 records should be maintained.
5 MR. DEVEREAUX: They are
6 maintained at the District Council
7 Headquarters.
8 MR. MACK: If they aren't,
9 because in this case, with respect to
10 what has been marked as MD-2, which are
11 the records we got today from you, they
12 don't have any of these records at the
13 District Council, they came from you or
14 Local 608, at least that's what they
15 told us.
16 MR. DEVEREAUX: Here's our
17 records from 608 North to 608 South. In
18 the past year, since you have arrived,
19 they go to the District Council --
20 MR. MACK: You guys can deal with
21 that. We have been asking for the daily
22 activity reports for Tri-Built for about
23 six months now. We got them today. You
24 draw what conclusion you want from them;
25 because as I'm sure the reason I only
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1 Martin Devereaux 28
2 got two votes is, that I am a
3 paperwork -- you know, I insist on
4 paperwork, at least in terms of trying
5 to figure out what really happened, is
6 what it boils down to. And I've
7 certainly preached my view that it is
8 important for people on the forefront of
9 jobs, and things of that nature, to have
10 some ability to at least peripherally or
11 superficially, document where they were
12 and what they did.
13 Let's move on. But my first
14 question is:
15 BY MR. MACK:
16 Q With respect to your work
17 involving the four companies I'm going to ask
18 you about today, just to go over what they
19 are, my primary focus will be Tri-Built, Silo
20 Construction, Corinthian, which is another
21 one that's in my sights at the moment, and
22 finally, Boom. Do I have all the notes that
23 continue to exist, or records or what have
24 you, that you prepared, you know, in this
25 exhibit here, for the year involved, for
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1 Martin Devereaux 29
2 2001?
3 A For 2001. Minus the month of
4 February, which I can't figure out where that
5 was; I believe there were some other days
6 missing, there was notes there.
7 Q Right. But, in other words, if
8 they exist for the year 2001, I have them?
9 A That existed in my possession in
10 the Bronx office, you got them.
11 Q Is there any other place, given
12 my desire to ensure, and let's focus on
13 Tri-Built, that I have records of every visit
14 or every interaction by a District Council
15 representative or a business agent
16 representative; what else should I do to
17 obtain any other records concerning
18 Tri-Built? Should I talk to Maurice McGrath;
19 would he be an individual that might have
20 some of the records?
21 A Maurice McGrath was on that job
22 with me.
23 Q I know that.
24 A Actually, all the agents were on
25 that job, minus John Greaney.
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2 Q I want to make sure I did my best
3 effort to gather every written detail for
4 Tri-Built interaction with 608. I've done
5 608 South, thoroughly. I want to make sure,
6 is there any other place I should go to, to
7 try to see if there are other records that
8 might pertain to Tri-Built, that you know?
9 A No, I don't know.
10 Q Now, before coming here today,
11 and I'm not in any way interested in learning
12 what Mr. Randell or Mr. Dowd, what advice
13 they may have given you, but did you prepare
14 yourself in any way before coming hear?
15 A No.
16 Q You did read Pershing Venzen's
17 testimony?
18 A A week ago.
19 Q Who gave you that testimony?
20 A That came out of the District
21 Council. Actually, Maurice McGrath brought
22 me that. I told him to bring it to me.
23 Q How did you learn that they had
24 possession of it?
25 A Maurice Leary.
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2 Q What did Maurice Leary say to you
3 about the transcript?
4 A He just said that they had it; he
5 didn't really go into no detail.
6 Q Why did he encourage you to read
7 it?
8 A He didn't encourage me to read
9 it. I wanted to read it myself, because I
10 was curious to know what Pershing Venzen did,
11 and what he had to say about it.
12 Q Did you learn that Pershing
13 Venzen made some admissions about his time at
14 Tri-Built? In other words, how did you
15 become interested in what Pershing Venzen had
16 to say?
17 A Well, it is a common practice, if
18 anybody gives a deposition that's a District
19 Council carpenter, and if it involves our
20 area, we can read that.
21 Q I don't disagree. What I have
22 generally done, and I made an exception here,
23 and I'm trying to figure out whether it was a
24 wise exception, and it was primarily done
25 because I thought I would be through more
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2 quickly by releasing a transcript prior to
3 the releasing of my report; and I'm trying to
4 figure out whether that was a prudent
5 exercise or not, because generally, I don't
6 release transcripts until my report is done.
7 And I'm trying to find out whether or not I
8 was prudent to do that, in terms of --
9 obviously, your obligation is, whatever
10 Pershing Venzen said, to tell me your
11 perspective, whether Pershing was telling the
12 truth or lying.
13 I was trying to figure out how it
14 came to your attention that there was a
15 transcript available on Mr. Venzen's
16 testimony. Did Maurice Leary call you up and
17 say, Martin, do you want to read this?
18 A No.
19 Q How did it happen?
20 A I don't remember how it happened.
21 He didn't specifically call me up and tell me
22 that: I have Pershing Venzen's deposition.
23 Q If you would explain to me how it
24 came into your possession. You were actually
25 brought a copy of it; is that right?
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2 A Yes.
3 Q And Maurice McGrath did that.
4 What were the steps that led to -- Pershing
5 Venzen's testimony wasn't available to the
6 District Council for a long period of time;
7 and so I'm trying to figure out what
8 triggered your request for Pershing Venzen's
9 testimony.
10 A I was interested in Pershing
11 Venzen's deposition, because of the job that
12 was in our area.
13 Q It was?
14 A Yes.
15 Q I'm sort of leading my way up to
16 the point: Did you know that Pershing had
17 been brought in by the District Council and
18 asked about the Tri-Built job?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Were you informed of what he
21 said?
22 A No.
23 Q Did you look at his interviews
24 with the District Council?
25 A No. I have never looked at any
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2 interview with the District Council for any
3 company.
4 Q Maurice Leary called you --
5 A I wouldn't --
6 Q Tell me what it is.
7 A I don't know if he called me. We
8 had a conversation. Who called who? I don't
9 remember. But we talked to people at
10 headquarters, our local, we communicate back
11 and forth all day long. How that came up, I
12 could be talking to him about another matter,
13 I don't remember what.
14 Q Okay. As a result of that
15 conversation, Maurice McGrath delivered you a
16 copy of the Pershing Venzen testimony?
17 A Correct.
18 Q Did you read the testimony?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q What was your -- after having
21 read it, what was your opinion or view?
22 A I was amazed that he had admitted
23 to taking between 15,000 and 17,000, under
24 our eyes.
25 Q Is there anything else?
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2 A It is disturbing.
3 Q Okay. Was there anything else
4 that was furnished to you, or you obtained,
5 that helped you, or you were interested in
6 reading about, concerning Tri-Built, besides
7 Mr. Venzen's testimony?
8 A I was only concerned at the
9 location and the job that was under my area.
10 Q I guess what I'm asking: Was
11 there anything else that you read or heard to
12 help you understand what went on in your area
13 concerning Tri-Built?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. What were those things?
16 A He stated that when we drove in
17 the driveway, the carpenters saw us coming
18 and they took off. And therefore, they were
19 never on the job when we arrived.
20 Q Or they hid?
21 A Or they hid, yeah.
22 Q That's true. That's what he
23 said.
24 A Uh-huh.
25 MR. RANDELL: Can I ask at this
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2 juncture, did the District Council have
3 any instructions when they received this
4 transcript, as to what they were to do
5 with it, or not do with it?
6 MR. MACK: I don't know if I
7 would use the word "instruction." I
8 think the request was made, and I made
9 some suggestions, which clearly they did
10 not follow. That's between me and the
11 District Council, and that's something
12 that --
13 MR. RANDELL: I would also assume
14 that Mr. Devereux, not being aware of
15 any restrictions, didn't do anything
16 improper --
17 MR. MACK: I'm not suggesting
18 that.
19 MR. RANDELL: -- in obtaining the
20 transcript?
21 MR. MACK: I'm not suggesting he
22 did anything wrong. I'm just trying to
23 find out what was the process whereby
24 the transcript, which was my normal
25 habit, you know, because you used to ask
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2 for transcripts and I told you I was not
3 going to give you transcripts until my
4 report was done, and I made an
5 exception, and whether I am still around
6 or not, I would stick to my customary
7 policy.
8 You didn't do anything wrong,
9 Martin. I'm trying to figure out how
10 the circumstances occurred.
11 Q It doesn't really change your
12 obligation to be perfectly forthcoming. You
13 know, Pershing Venzen may have been accurate
14 in some respects and inaccurate in others.
15 That's one of the main reasons you're here
16 today, to assist me. I also want to make
17 sure, were you given any guidance about what
18 you should say or do today, besides from your
19 attorneys, whose job it is to do that?
20 A Absolutely not.
21 Q Was there anything else besides
22 Mr. Venzen's sworn testimony, that you read
23 or assessed, evaluated, studied, what is the
24 word, besides his testimony, before you came
25 here today?
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2 A No. None of it.
3 Q There are a couple of other
4 things I'm missing, but let's go here, and
5 I'll try to be reasonably efficient.
6 What was your responsibility, at
7 the beginning of 2001; how would you describe
8 your job?
9 A What happened in the beginning,
10 we rotated with different partners.
11 Q Would you describe your position
12 as a business agent with 608 North, or what
13 would be -- how would you describe your title
14 in January 2001?
15 A In January 2001, I was a business
16 agent for Local 608.
17 Q Did you have any area of
18 responsibility, a particular part of the
19 City, to deal with?
20 A For a short period of time, we
21 were given areas, we rotated. We would work
22 one month from, say, 14th Street, down to
23 West Fourth Street. The next month you could
24 be up in the Bronx. You would have to read
25 where I was. Off the top of my head, I can't
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2 remember. We did rotate a lot.
3 Q You were not assigned to any
4 particular contractor or jobsite?
5 A No.
6 Q Who determined, you know, where
7 you would conduct your activities in 2001;
8 how was that determined?
9 A 2001, our activity was governed
10 by John Greaney.
11 Q I notice that on what you have
12 given me, from time to time, I see the name
13 Raymond Budd?
14 A He was my partner for the longest
15 period of time.
16 Q When you say your partner --
17 A Worked together. Teamwork.
18 Q I'm big on teamwork. Before
19 Budd, was the routine that when you went
20 about your duties, you would generally have a
21 partner with you?
22 A Yes, yes.
23 Q And your partners during 2001
24 were whom, besides Mr. Budd?
25 A I don't remember.
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2 Q Why don't you take, so you have
3 in front you, because I notice not only is
4 February missing, but I wonder if you could
5 just tell me which months bear your writing,
6 because the writing is very different.
7 A Okay. This is my writing.
8 Q The month of January?
9 A The week of 1/5, Page 2.
10 Q I'm looking at -- all of these
11 are included in one exhibit, which we called
12 MD-2, that stands for Martin Devereaux. They
13 have been arranged by month, starting with
14 January 2001 through December 2001. And so,
15 for instance, on the top page for the week
16 ending January 5th, 2001, it is Tommy McKeon
17 and yourself, listed at the top?
18 A Correct.
19 Q So the writing that you say is
20 yours --
21 A Is on the second page.
22 Q The second page. I could
23 probably figure that out, because on the
24 first page, there's a little bracket saying
25 "Tom and Martin"?
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2 A Yes.
3 Q Would it be fair that the first
4 page reflects Tommy's writing?
5 A Correct.
6 Q So that printing that goes on for
7 the rest of January, I think without any
8 exception, starting on Page 2, is all your
9 writing -- I see a visit -- I actually see a
10 week ending February 2nd, 2001 in there.
11 A Like at the top date. I think it
12 is really January. 1/31.
13 Q You're right. Is that Mr. Budd's
14 handwriting?
15 A Looking at February?
16 Q I'm looking at the very end of
17 the January collection, not the last page.
18 It looks like the second to last, and the
19 third to last.
20 A The script writing is Raymond
21 Budd.
22 Q Now, going to the next month's
23 collection, which starts off Friday March 2,
24 2001, I presume, whose printing is that?
25 A That is Vinny Taddeo.
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2 Q Going through the month of
3 March --
4 A Not all his writing.
5 Q Your writing starts around the
6 last page of March 16th; would that be fair?
7 A On 3/12, that's my writing.
8 Q Right.
9 A But not individual pages. 3/16.
10 Q Right.
11 A 3/20; 3/21; 3/26. But --
12 Q I think I'm able to discern your
13 writing, so I'm not going to bother you with
14 it until I have confusion.
15 How did you decide, between you
16 and your partner, who was going to keep a
17 record of the day's work?
18 A This is how it worked: When two
19 guys worked together, one guy drove, the
20 other guy took the notes, vice versa. Seeing
21 there was two of us together, it was really
22 no point, we thought, in writing notes
23 separately. But somewhere in the future,
24 John Greaney decided that we all had to write
25 our daily sheets ourselves. So that changed.
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2 Q Sometime after 2001?
3 A Sometime after -- we had so many
4 changes, but the current policy, has been in
5 effect for quite some time.
6 Q You keep your own records?
7 A Each individual, even if they are
8 partners, write their own daily reports.
9 Q Let me ask some fundamental
10 questions here. Do you recall the first time
11 you ever had an interaction with Tri-Built
12 Construction?
13 A That was the first time.
14 Q You'd never seen that contractor
15 before?
16 A I think I probably was Downtown,
17 the Downtown office, but it would have been,
18 if it was anything, it would have been
19 something small. I never remember any big
20 job.
21 Q Do you recall who the owners of
22 Tri-Built were, or are?
23 A I know Noel McCall. I never knew
24 his partner.
25 Q Have you had any dealing with
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2 Noel, let's say in the last two years?
3 A As a matter of fact, in Fordham,
4 I never talked to Noel, during the course of
5 that job, on the visits I made.
6 Q I guess I'm asking the broader
7 question: Have you had any, let's say,
8 conversations with Noel, in the last two
9 years?
10 A Absolutely not. No dealings at
11 all, whatsoever. The Fordham job was the
12 only one.
13 Q If you were friendly with Noel, I
14 mean, theoretically, you say: Noel, what's
15 the story here, I hear stuff. That never
16 happened?
17 A There was no relationship there.
18 Q All right. Let's stick with
19 Tri-Built, at least to begin with. What is
20 your first recollection of becoming aware
21 that Tri-Built had a job in your area, 608
22 North? You've told me Fordham. Let's say
23 Fordham.
24 A I believe that job was already
25 ongoing when we went to work in the Bronx.
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2 Q Just tell me, when you say we
3 went to work, you mean you, when you went up
4 to the Bronx. When were you up at 608 North
5 for the first time?
6 A Probably January --
7 Q Feel free to look at anything
8 that would help you that you furnished me.
9 I see your writing --
10 A I was Downtown on 1/5. The month
11 of January, I think is basically Downtown.
12 Q Let me ask a quick aside here. I
13 see in January that you have an FPC. I
14 happen to know FPC Construction. Was that a
15 company that -- I'll show you what I'm
16 talking about here; on January 9th, 2001,
17 from 12:15 to 12:30, 550 West 43rd Street. I
18 think that's your writing, it looks like your
19 writing.
20 A On the 3rd?
21 Q On the 9th?
22 A 1/9, yeah, FPC Construction, 550
23 West 43rd.
24 Q What does that indicate to you;
25 what does that entry mean to you, Martin?
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2 A That the steward would be sent
3 the next day.
4 Q Does that mean there's any
5 implied criticism there, that you go to the
6 job and find there isn't a steward and you
7 need to send one? In other words, what
8 should I draw from that entry, if anything?
9 A We have changed that policy in
10 our daily reports from back then.
11 MR. RANDELL: If you know now; do
12 you know what that meant? If you don't
13 know --
14 THE WITNESS: I know what it
15 meant. "Send steward."
16 A Therefore, the next business day,
17 the steward would be sent.
18 Q I'm trying to figure out whether
19 when you say "send steward," it means that in
20 your visit you found out that they should
21 have a steward, and you said it to them,
22 therefore, they are wrong in not telling you
23 the job started? Does that entry mean they
24 told you the job started on that occasion,
25 and you were simply doing a routine act of
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2 sending a steward?
3 A That would be a routine visit,
4 most likely, and found the contractor there,
5 saying he had one carpenter or no carpenters.
6 Q That's what I'm asking.
7 A I don't know, Walter.
8 Q I'm trying to figure out, because
9 I --
10 A The policy of the carpenters in
11 general, like a business agent, he will go on
12 the job, if he found a carpenter and he found
13 enough work there, he will send a steward.
14 Just because there's a carpenter on the job,
15 that doesn't mean that the end of the world
16 is going to take place.
17 Q Let's say there were ten
18 carpenters there?
19 A Then you have to file a
20 Grievance.
21 Q I'm trying to find out how to
22 interpret your remarks. In other words, if I
23 just see "send steward," it doesn't mean that
24 you found anything of significance?
25 A Exactly.
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2 Q And if you had found ten
3 carpenters working there?
4 A I would have said, file a
5 Grievance.
6 Q That would be the indicator of
7 wrongdoing?
8 A Most likely. We are doing it
9 different now than back then, so --
10 Q When I look at the report for the
11 week ending March 2nd, it still appears to
12 me, for the month of March, that you were
13 Downtown.
14 A 1411 Broadway, yes.
15 Q What was it that occurred between
16 March and April that occasioned your going
17 Uptown? You'll see starting in April, you're
18 Uptown.
19 A Month of March, Downtown.
20 Q What happened which occasioned
21 your having responsibilities moved Uptown, if
22 you remember, in March; or what were the
23 circumstances of your having a different area
24 of responsibilities?
25 A At that particular time?
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2 Q Yes.
3 A We were rotating, I think, from
4 the beginning of that year. Other guys could
5 have been in the Bronx. I don't know. I
6 don't recollect.
7 Q But --
8 A When I was rotating, there was
9 other people rotating. I wasn't the only
10 guy. The whole crew was being rotated.
11 Q Do you have any idea who was
12 responsible for 608 North during the first
13 three months of 2001?
14 A We took over that Local -- more
15 than likely, Mike Russo, Raymond Budd, Taddeo
16 is with me here, and Frank Schiavone.
17 Q If you were to advise me of the
18 best of your recollection, who was
19 accountable or responsible for the problems
20 for the first three months of 2001, where it
21 at least appears, at least for January and
22 March, you were Downtown; do you have a
23 recollection or an opinion as to who was
24 accountable for 608 North during that time
25 period?
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2 A John Greaney was in charge of the
3 whole lot.
4 Q Were there specific agents that
5 you rotated with at the end of March 2001,
6 that resulted in your becoming responsible
7 for the Bronx or north, and then moving to
8 the south?
9 A I don't know.
10 Q Who were the business agents
11 under John Greaney's supervision, first
12 quarter of 2001? Frank Schiavone?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Vinny Taddeo?
15 A Correct.
16 Q Raymond Budd?
17 A Yes, Mike Russo. Martin
18 Devereaux. Jerry Philbin.
19 Q Was Jerry Philbin ever in the
20 Bronx?
21 A Yes. He rotated. He spent a
22 month.
23 Q How about Maurice McGrath?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Anybody else?
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2 A Joe Firth. John did not work in
3 the Bronx.
4 Q John Greaney?
5 A No.
6 Q Do you have a recollection of
7 your first visit to Fordham, or recognition
8 that Tri-Built was a job within your area of
9 responsibility?
10 A I believe when we first went to
11 the Bronx, we got teamed up with one of the
12 guys that was already in the Bronx, and was
13 familiar with the area.
14 Q Do you recall who that was?
15 A Don't know. Don't remember.
16 Q Now, prior to your -- I think
17 you've told me that the first time that you
18 became acquainted with Tri-Built, as best you
19 recall, was on the Fordham job, with the
20 possible exception of years ago?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Did Tri-Built have any
23 reputation, in your mind, before your first
24 visit to Fordham? In other words, was it
25 known -- did it have a reputation for either
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2 accountability or reliance or reliability, or
3 otherwise?
4 A I don't know.
5 Q For instance -- I sit down and do
6 this a lot with shop stewards. I say, are
7 there contractors that I should be involved
8 with or look at? I would say one of the
9 reasons I came to Tri-Built was for that type
10 of reason; and that certain contractors have
11 reputations to the knowledgeable people, as
12 ones you have to be careful with; and others
13 you can always rely on to do work in a
14 particular way, and pay their benefits or
15 stamps.
16 I'm trying to find out, in your
17 mind, prior to finding them at Fordham, and
18 the fact that you had known Noel, did they
19 have a reputation, good or bad, in your mind,
20 if you remember?
21 A That would be like assuming.
22 Q True.
23 A Assuming, I won't make a judgment
24 on a person unless that person screws me.
25 That's my philosophy.
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2 Q You would say that prior to your
3 visit to Fordham, you had no opinion about
4 Tri-Built, good or bad?
5 A No. Correct.
6 Q The first time that I see any
7 reference in your notes to Tri-Built, is on
8 April 16th. You might want to take a look at
9 that.
10 (Pause.)
11 Q Let me ask the first question.
12 How likely would it be, if you visited
13 Tri-Built, that it wouldn't be reported on
14 the Business Agent Weekly Activity Report?
15 In other words, how complete are the Business
16 Agents Weekly Activity Reports in terms of
17 visits to the site? Would they contain them
18 all, 50 percent, or what?
19 A Basically, what we did back then,
20 we recorded the jobsite, and, you know,
21 really, we didn't go into much other detail.
22 Q Would there be occasions that you
23 would go to the jobsite and not record it in
24 the weekly activity report?
25 A Unless we forgot to write it out.
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2 Q Your intent would be to write it
3 out every time you went to the site?
4 A Absolutely; absolutely.
5 Q I see on April 16th, 2001, that
6 at least, if I'm reading your writing
7 correctly, you did not find the steward on
8 the job?
9 A At 11:30, yes.
10 Q At 11:30?
11 A Yes.
12 Q My question is, what would that
13 entry, or what did that entry, I'll be more
14 precise, occasion you to do, if anything?
15 A You got to remember now, back in
16 those years, we weren't aware of all these
17 stewards that had all these problems. We are
18 assuming that everybody is good out there.
19 We are not aware that there's all this
20 hanky-panky taking place. So the policy of
21 the union at that particular time, was to
22 visit the job, if the guy had gone to lunch,
23 it was no big deal to us back then, not like
24 today, where you have to be -- you have to
25 really go over it with a fine-tooth comb,
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2 because of the things that came to light.
3 Back in those years, we wouldn't have known
4 about that.
5 MR. RANDELL: Could this entry
6 simply have meant that the steward was
7 on lunch or a coffee break?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, or he went
9 home sick. There's a million different
10 reasons for that. As I said, we did
11 not, at that particular time, think that
12 was a big deal.
13 Q Well, I need to understand what
14 happened here. I mean, if you went to a
15 jobsite and did not find the steward, because
16 there are not many entries of that nature on
17 your sheets --
18 A I would like to know who the
19 steward was that date.
20 Q Take a look at the shop steward
21 reports. Pershing Venzen.
22 MR. RANDELL: We don't have the
23 steward reports here.
24 MR. MACK: Yes, you do. If not,
25 I apologize.
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2 MR. RANDELL: I'm sorry. I stand
3 corrected.
4 Q I'm looking at 4/16 --
5 MR. RANDELL: It would have been
6 Pershing Venzen.
7 A Their wasn't a change. There was
8 four stewards on the job.
9 Q Let's go slowly, that's why I'm
10 trying to figure it out. I see Pershing
11 Venzen, and you read Pershing Venzen's
12 testimony, so you now know what he admitted
13 to.
14 But the question is, I'm going to
15 presume that your entry on April 16th, 2001,
16 means that the steward wasn't on the job.
17 A Yes, he definitely wasn't there,
18 if I wrote it in, he wasn't there. The
19 reasons why he wasn't there, I don't know.
20 Q So my actual question is: When a
21 steward is not on the job, best question is,
22 what did you do? You don't remember taking
23 any particular steps as a result of this
24 entry?
25 A You would maybe call the guy the
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2 next day or that day, where he was, not
3 necessarily recording it, you know.
4 Q Let me ask it this way: Do you
5 remember what you did, if anything, when you
6 didn't find him on the job?
7 A No.
8 Q Now, of course, Pershing Venzen
9 has recorded on April 16th, that he worked
10 seven hours on that day?
11 A Right.
12 Q You know now, I would be unhappy
13 about that unless there's a note explaining
14 why. During the time, I'm asking, given --
15 A It could be simply that the guy
16 went to lunch, we didn't want to wait around
17 for his return from lunch; could be that
18 simple of an answer.
19 Q It could be he took the day off
20 and was paid for not coming in; that's the
21 opposite extreme. You can't tell me which it
22 is?
23 A Yeah.
24 Q Do you recall your practice when
25 you noted that there was, let's say, as you
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2 did note here and did not find the steward on
3 the job, on the 16th, would you have taken
4 any particular -- would you have tried to
5 reach him?
6 A Definitely called him.
7 Q What is your first recollection
8 of actually having a conversation either
9 personally or on the phone or any way, with
10 Mr. Venzen?
11 A Walter, I don't remember who I
12 talked to yesterday. I'm going to remember
13 what I did back in 2001?
14 Q I'm going to ask you, do you
15 remember at all, as you sit here today, any
16 interaction with Pershing Venzen?
17 A Yes; one.
18 Q Tell me about that.
19 A The one occasion that I went to
20 that job with Maurice McGrath, who was with
21 me that particular day, we found one
22 carpenter, a retired carpenter, Pat Creaney.
23 Q Tell me what happened on that
24 day.
25 A On that particular day, we met
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2 Venzen right at the car, and the car is here,
3 but the building is very close; so we met him
4 out there. But I had to have been there
5 prior to that, that I saw him, I had to be on
6 the job the previous week.
7 Q To see Venzen?
8 A To see that guy, Pat Creaney. I
9 must have looked at the shop steward sheet
10 and I said to Venzen, Pat Creaney is not on
11 the sheet. Somewhere I observed that.
12 Q Before this conversation with
13 Pershing Venzen, the shop steward, you
14 believe you had seen Pat Creaney on a prior
15 occasion on the site; is that correct?
16 A Sometime prior to that, and not
17 that day.
18 Q Not that day, but at a day prior?
19 A I don't think it was that day. I
20 don't think it was that day, but it was
21 prior; just prior. So I says to Pershing,
22 where is Pat Creaney? He is not on the
23 sheet. His reply back to me was, he would
24 not show me his card.
25 I told him, go in there and bring
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2 out Pat Creaney to me right now.
3 He brought him out, I asked Pat,
4 did you not show him your card when you were
5 asked? He says, he never asked me for my
6 card. I said, do you have your card right
7 now? And he handed to it Pershing. And I
8 said, put that guy on. Never forget this. I
9 said, Pershing, I don't want to write you up,
10 but if you ever pull this shit again, I will
11 remove you. I let it go with not writing it
12 up and sending a report to the Council.
13 Q You did not send a report?
14 A I did not. I gave the guy the
15 benefit of the doubt --
16 Q This was a --
17 A Just a misunderstanding, a simple
18 misunderstanding.
19 Q Did that event cause you to be
20 more careful or do more at that site, because
21 of Pat Creaney being there, or not?
22 A We moved around so much, I don't
23 know if I continuously monitored that job
24 from that time forward. We rotated, so I'm
25 not 100 percent sure.
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2 Q What was Pershing Venzen's
3 response beyond what you told me, about the
4 situation?
5 A He said he was very sorry. He's
6 a good steward, and he would never let that
7 happen again. He was very apologetic.
8 Q Other than this incident that you
9 just told me about, do you recall any other
10 interaction with Mr. Venzen?
11 A No other blow-up in any form,
12 nothing that came to my attention that I
13 needed to --
14 Q Take action?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Was there anything else about
17 that site, that Fordham site, that came to
18 your attention, that either troubled or
19 caused you to be suspicious or concerned?
20 A No. Actually, that job, with the
21 number of people that I seen on the job,
22 could be done very easily with that number of
23 people. It was not a difficult job.
24 Q Well, I'm going to keep going
25 through it here, and just to make sure I've
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2 done everything I can, but, for instance:
3 There was a time when a new steward came,
4 after Venzen, and the numbers went up
5 significantly higher than they were when
6 Venzen was there. Of course, I have the
7 benefit of Venzen's admissions as to what
8 happened, and the benefit of admissions of
9 Noel; so it is a lot easier for me to see
10 things now.
11 The question I have: Did it ever
12 come to your attention as to perhaps
13 something unusual or suspicious, or about the
14 fact that when a new stop steward came to the
15 site, there were significantly more
16 carpenters on the sheet than there were when
17 Venzen was there?
18 A No. In our construction
19 industry, sometimes the carpenter load goes
20 up, and sometimes it goes down. They yank
21 guys out, they bring people in. Any given
22 day, if they have a job some other place,
23 they could pull out ten guys. So it is not a
24 red flag for us, for the numbers to go up or
25 down. That wouldn't -- you look at the
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2 paperwork, you know, two or three years
3 later, but as a carpenter, that would not put
4 up the flag.
5 Q What would put up the flag?
6 A Some form of an incident on the
7 job.
8 Q Like Pat Creaney?
9 A Yeah, we see him, we knew he was
10 retired. At that particular time, we had a
11 problem with -- retired carpenters seemed to
12 be working more than the forty hours. We
13 zeroed in on retired carpenters at that
14 particular time.
15 Q I'm jumping ahead a little bit.
16 Since we are here, let me ask about it.
17 Given your expertise, and now that you have
18 read Pershing's testimony, and if you were
19 instructing new business agents at 608 so
20 there aren't any more Boom Construction or
21 Tri-Built Construction reports being written
22 by an outsider like me, what would you tell
23 business agents, recognizing the difficulties
24 of the job, but what would you tell them as
25 to how to avoid being taken in by Pershing
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2 Venzen or by a contractor? How would you
3 change your procedures today, knowing what
4 you know today?
5 A The procedure that we have with
6 the stewards, it seems like you, for
7 instance, would give a lot of credit to a guy
8 that would call you and complain about a
9 business agent trying to remove him as a
10 steward.
11 Q I would give credit to --
12 A You would pay attention and give
13 a lot of credence to him, and then -- in
14 other words, the business agent is at fault,
15 and not him.
16 Q I don't agree with that, to be
17 perfectly honest. I don't know of a
18 situation where that occurred.
19 A They were different back then,
20 that the agent thought about removing a
21 steward, they looked at the agent as, you
22 know, he's heavy-handed.
23 Q I don't know that that's
24 attributable to me. If anything, I go the
25 other way.
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2 But my point is, what my question
3 is addressed to, given your experience, given
4 your knowledge of the situation, how would
5 you advise business agents today, to avoid
6 situations such as Tommy McKeon had at
7 Jacobi?
8 A A lot more training for our
9 stewards; a lot more training. More
10 qualified stewards. More training. A lot
11 more training.
12 Q Okay. We are talking about
13 agents now. In terms of business agents, --
14 because, for instance, I reject -- I hear so
15 many times from the business agents who I ask
16 about, for a steward that has finally come
17 forward and admitted that they were taking
18 cash: Hey, I presumed, I assumed, I knew
19 this steward; he was a good guy, he was
20 someone I thought I could trust.
21 But that, to me, has not proven,
22 at least in this case, to be a valuable
23 methodology. Because very frequently -- for
24 instance, Pershing Venzen felt he was
25 particularly vulnerable, in other words, and
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2 because his mother died in St. Thomas, he had
3 to go down. Maybe that was an excuse.
4 A There is vulnerability and they
5 are not as strong as they should be.
6 Q And recognizing I have taken the
7 view it is far better for the business agents
8 and the leaders to catch the Tri-Builts and
9 the Booms, and the other people who are
10 corrupting, how would you -- what advice
11 would you give a business agent today, going
12 to a jobsite, in terms of how to try to catch
13 the people who are taking cash or have been
14 corrupted?
15 A You have to pay a lot more
16 attention to the job, a lot more attention
17 than it used to be.
18 Q What kinds of attention, what
19 kinds of --
20 A More visits to the job, a lot
21 more visits.
22 Q How about arriving at the job and
23