1
1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
-------------------------------------------x
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
4 Plaintiff,
90 CIV 5722
5 -against- (CSH)
6 DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED
7 BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND
JOINERS OF AMERICA, et.al.,
8
Defendants.
9 ------------------------------------------x
Independent Investigator Deposition
10
May 20, 2005
11 10:15 o'clock a.m.
12
13 Interview of JOHN FIRTH by the
14 Independent Investigator, Walter Mack, Esq., held
15 at the offices of Doar, Rieck & Mack, Esqs., 217
16 Broadway, 7th Floor, New York, New York
17 10007-2911, before Stewart Nissenbaum, a Shorthand
18 Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New
19 York.
20
21
22 TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
305 Madison Avenue 142 Willis Avenue
23 Suite 449 P.O. BOX 347
New York, N.Y. 10165 Mineola, N.Y. 11501
24 (212)349-9692 (516)741-5235
25
(212) 349-9692 TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY (516) 741-5342
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1
A P P E A R A N C E S :
2
3
DOAR RIECK & MACK, ESQS.
4 217 Broadway, 7th Floor
New York, New York 10007-2911
5
BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.
6 Independent Investigator
7
DIENST & SERRINS, LLP
8 Attorneys for Witness
233 Broadway, 18th Floor
9 New York, New York 10279
10 BY: RICHARD A. DIENST, ESQ.
11
12 ALSO PRESENT:
13 DONALD SOBOCIENSKI
14
15 * * *
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2 MR. MACK: On the record.
3 I would like to go on the record,
4 and I want both of you to listen very
5 carefully to what I have to say,
6 recognizing that there are some things
7 that I want you to consider; and
8 obviously, as you know, Joe, you and I
9 know each other for a couple of years,
10 and I want to start from the proposition
11 that I have a lot of respect and have
12 heard a lot of things that are very
13 positive concerning your service as a
14 business agent.
15 So in many respects, I am
16 honoring your request not to be placed,
17 which is basically my procedure with
18 respect to business agents, although I
19 did not put that policy in practice the
20 first time I took a statement from you.
21 So I want to go carefully and
22 slowly, recognizing that anytime you
23 wish to talk to Mr. Dienst, he and I
24 have known each other and went to
25 different schools together for decades,
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2 and he is very experienced and
3 intelligent counsel, but some of these
4 words may mean things to him that don't
5 have the same meaning to you, and so
6 anytime you feel it is important to
7 discuss something outside, I'll give you
8 whatever time and attention is
9 necessary; all right?
10 MR. FIRTH: Yes.
11 MR. MACK: There are some words
12 here that are of significance, that mean
13 a lot to lawyers, but may not mean a lot
14 to a business agent.
15 What I told Moe Leary several
16 months ago was, that when I'm writing
17 reports, and things of that nature, that
18 unless I felt a business agent had a
19 problem, a criminal problem in which I
20 needed to place them under oath, and you
21 have been an exception to that, I
22 intended to proceed by bringing business
23 agents in as appropriate, and conducting
24 an interview, because of my belief,
25 which I will describe again, which is,
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2 given your special position of authority
3 and responsibility as a business agent
4 for the Carpenters, that it is
5 unnecessary for me to place you under
6 oath as I did the first time when we
7 spoke years ago, more than a year ago.
8 MR. FIRTH: A year and a half.
9 MR. MACK: Right; whatever it
10 was. Because it is my view, and I think
11 the judge would agree with me, that
12 because of your special position as a
13 leader within the Carpenters, that were
14 you to be foolish enough to lie to me
15 and tell me an untruth or withhold
16 information, that that would be
17 considered an obstruction of justice
18 anyway. And I want you to know that
19 although I'm not going to place you
20 under oath and that while I'm not giving
21 you what I would consider a criminal
22 warning or a perjury warning, the impact
23 is really the same. Because you are a
24 leader within the District Council, you
25 have a special relation with me and to
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2 the Court of trying to assist the Court
3 and me get to the bottom of issues and
4 to talk to me fully and completely and
5 accurately.
6 Were you to withhold information
7 from me or tell an untruth, whether
8 you're under oath or not wouldn't make a
9 difference, because it would be a
10 potential obstruction of justice.
11 Although I'm not going to put you under
12 oath, I want you to understand that you
13 still have the same obligation to tell
14 the truth, and to help me, to help each
15 other, in a sense, to get to the bottom
16 of a couple of issues dealing with two
17 jobsites; that's all we are going to
18 talk about today, that have come into
19 concern.
20 Since you're a business agent
21 assigned to both jobsites, you're the
22 person I need to speak to about the
23 subject matter. So what I would say to
24 you, there is no issue in my mind, Mr.
25 Dienst can raise whatever questions he
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2 needs to, were you to tell me something
3 false or withhold information that is
4 relevant, that would be considered by me
5 an effort to prevent me from doing my
6 job; and since I am a court officer,
7 notwithstanding the joy that surrounds
8 the District Delegates at my departure,
9 I'm still on board; and the judge said
10 clearly, that until he signs an Order, I
11 still am the Independent Investigator
12 with the authority. Even though I may
13 be gone next week or next month,
14 depending on when the judge signs the
15 new Order, I still, as the judge said,
16 basically have a time of transition.
17 And I want to make certain that you
18 understand that even were the judge to
19 sign an Order right this instant, which
20 I know he does not have an Order before
21 him appointing someone else, I would
22 submit a report concerning these two
23 jobsites in whatever capacity.
24 I'm going to talk to you about
25 them, but I want to make certain, I
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2 recognize that the District Council has
3 succeeded in enforcing the contract, and
4 I am leaving; and I will do other
5 things, and move on. But until that
6 happens, I intend to, and I've said this
7 to Moe and Gary Rothman as recently as
8 Wednesday, the old Marine Corps motto,
9 "Hold until relieved." In any event, I
10 will be performing in that capacity, and
11 I will certainly spend time with the new
12 II, whoever that may be, at least
13 expressing an opinion on what should be
14 done. As to these two jobsites, I'm
15 going to act on them.
16 Do you have any questions about
17 what I have said, or any concern you
18 wish to express?
19 MR. FIRTH: No.
20 MR. MACK: Mr. Dienst and I have
21 known each other for years, and anytime
22 there's something that you want to talk
23 to him about, or if he needs to express
24 something, that's fine, believe me, I
25 don't want to over-formalize this, but
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2 my words, I'm choosing them carefully
3 henceforth.
4 I want to talk about the
5 potential conflict issue now, and go
6 through it. I say it is a potential
7 conflict, but, you know, conflicts are a
8 legal concept, and it is something that
9 Mr. Dienst has to deal with, and should
10 discuss with you, if he hasn't already;
11 and my assumption is, he has.
12 Mr. Dienst represents John
13 Gaffney. John Gaffney appeared here
14 under oath, and testified at some length
15 a couple of weeks ago, something of that
16 nature. I've told Mr. Dienst that in my
17 view, John Gaffney -- I'm going to
18 recommend criminal charges against him
19 for lying. And basically, in addition
20 to that, I have done a great deal of
21 collection of evidence with other
22 witnesses about the jobsite, one of the
23 jobsites we are talking about today,
24 which is 455 Central Park West.
25 MR. FIRTH: 106th Street.
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2 MR. MACK: That's one of the two
3 we are going to talk about today. I
4 have obtained telephone records. I've
5 obtained sworn testimony from people
6 who, in my view, are credible; and there
7 are some very serious allegations
8 concerning Mr. Gaffney's conduct on that
9 jobsite. Okay?
10 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
11 MR. MACK: And I also have
12 collected District Council records
13 concerning a Grievance that was brought,
14 which you have some knowledge of. And I
15 also -- one of the concerns that you
16 know about, because I've said this, I
17 think it is a policy of the District
18 Council that when a shop steward report
19 is submitted referring to hours on a
20 jobsite, when a shop steward is not
21 present on the jobsite, I consider that
22 a potential criminal offense.
23 I have significant records which
24 John Gaffney could not possibly have
25 been on the jobsite at times he had
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2 signed shop steward reports, because he
3 was elsewhere on other jobsites or at
4 school or not around.
5 So, I don't want there to be any
6 question in your mind. I'm not a
7 prosecutor, I have been a prosecutor, I
8 have been through this. I cannot
9 predict what any prosecutor would do,
10 and I certainly can't predict outcome;
11 but I at least am going to make a
12 criminal reference with respect to John
13 Gaffney.
14 The prosecutor may say that's a
15 load of whatever, and not do anything.
16 You know, that guy Mack, he's a lame
17 duck, what the hell does he know. On
18 the other hand, they might start a Grand
19 Jury investigation. And I'm not going
20 to predict, they have discretion to do
21 what they want to do. And I think there
22 are some very serious matters for them
23 to think about.
24 The reason I'm going through all
25 of this is, that Mr. Dienst sits here as
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2 the lawyer for John Gaffney. That's why
3 I'm going through this at length, and
4 I'm bringing you in, and basically I'm
5 going to say to you what I normally say:
6 Tell me the story, tell me what
7 happened, what's your perspective.
8 I know you're a friend of John
9 Gaffney, at least he describes you as
10 such, and I think you would describe him
11 at such, as well. And the proper advice
12 that Mr. Dienst should give you, as your
13 attorney, would be: Listen, he could be
14 your best friend, best man, but under no
15 circumstances should you lie in front of
16 Mack concerning your knowledge of what
17 is there. And if he did anything other
18 than that, he would be subject to
19 criticism, because your obligation to me
20 is to tell me what you know.
21 I look upon our time together
22 today for you to give me your side of
23 some of these events. So whether it is
24 yours or 608's side, or whatever side it
25 is I'm looking for, whether it's the
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2 same or a different perspective, I want
3 to be able to say I've done everything I
4 can to get both sides of the subject
5 matter.
6 Mr. Dienst sits there,
7 recognizing that he retains an
8 obligation to John Gaffney, as to whom I
9 have told him, and said to you both, I
10 am pretty certain I'm making a criminal
11 reference. If you tell me, John
12 Gaffney, I have a videotape of him being
13 there, I have records, and Prince
14 Carpentry hates John Gaffney's guts and
15 they made all this up, and they would be
16 willing to lie under oath about what
17 John Gaffney did and said, and all of
18 this stuff, John is an innocent man, and
19 let me tell you why and how I know that.
20 That may be. If so, I want to at least
21 have done what I can to hear both sides.
22 That's why I brought John in and spent
23 time with him. And I'm not going to say
24 you couldn't persuade me that John is
25 being set up because of whatever
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2 situation it is; and that you have
3 records -- and I'm going to talk about
4 records in a moment -- or there are
5 records which would support John
6 Gaffney's side of the subject matter.
7 I need to get those, because no
8 matter what the District Council may
9 think of my performance as the II, I do
10 actually think I try to be fair and hear
11 both sides before I make a decision.
12 But the reason I'm going through
13 all of this is, Mr. Dienst may have a
14 conflict here, to represent both you and
15 John Gaffney. Because if you have
16 truthful, accurate information about
17 this jobsite, which would be critical of
18 John Gaffney, his advice to you, sitting
19 beside you today as a lawyer, I don't
20 care whether it helps or hurts John
21 Gaffney, you have to tell the truth. I
22 raise that issue at this time. I asked
23 Mr. Dienst today, because I also think
24 I'm going to bring John Greaney in to
25 talk about this before I make my
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2 reference, whatever it is.
3 MR. FIRTH: 106th Street?
4 MR. MACK: Yes, 106th Street.
5 If only for the reasons, I asked
6 John, who I know well enough to call on
7 the phone and say: John, I need all the
8 608 records concerning this jobsite.
9 All I got was shop steward reports.
10 MR. FIRTH: What were you asking
11 for?
12 MR. MACK: Activity reports,
13 reports of visits to the site.
14 MR. FIRTH: From me? Okay.
15 MR. MACK: So, you know, and
16 there's the other jobsite John is more
17 involved in. So the only reason I raise
18 it is, if Dick could possibly represent
19 John Greaney, that could be another
20 layer -- he's told me that he doesn't,
21 but I don't know what the future holds.
22 MR. DIENST: I've never had the
23 priivlege of meeting Mr. Greaney yet. I
24 haven't been contacted by him.
25 Of course, should he contact me,
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2 and retain me, I'll certainly be in
3 touch with you, and we'll set up a date
4 and time for him to come in.
5 In response to the conflict
6 issue, before we got started, after our
7 conversation earlier this morning, I
8 spoke to Joe Firth, and I had spoken to
9 him prior to today, as to the potential
10 of any conflict. I explained to him
11 what my responsibility was to him or his
12 responsibility is to you, and what my
13 responsibility is to you. I also
14 explained to him what my responsibility
15 is to John Gaffney, and what my
16 responsibility is to you in relation to
17 John Gaffney.
18 I feel secure that I have no
19 conflict of interest between Mr. Gaffney
20 and Mr. Firth. Mr. Firth has assured me
21 that he is comfortable with me, that he
22 will tell you the truth, and that he has
23 no feeling of any conflict of interest
24 between himself and Mr. Gaffney.
25 I spoke with Mr. Gaffney. Mr.
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2 Gaffney has assured me that he has no
3 conflict of interest with my
4 representation of him, and my
5 representation of Mr. Firth.
6 So I am comfortable with this
7 situation, in light of the full
8 disclosure that I've made to both Mr.
9 Gaffney and Mr. Firth; the full
10 disclosure that I have made to you.
11 MR. MACK: Okay. As I say, I
12 have taken the position, and I will
13 continue to take the position, whatever
14 time remains to me, that that's a
15 decision for the attorney and the client
16 to make. In a different life at a
17 different time, I might have taken a
18 different view; I don't see myself in
19 that position.
20 The only reason I raise it, Joe,
21 is to make sure you understand
22 potentially there's a conflict. But as
23 Mr. Dienst just said, you have discussed
24 it, and it is your choice, and Mr.
25 Dienst, I certainly have great respect
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2 for his observations and knowledge.
3 I'm going to ask you, just to
4 make sure that the record is clear, that
5 you are happy with Mr. Dienst's
6 representation, that you understand the
7 potential for conflict, and that you are
8 prepared to proceed with Mr. Dienst as
9 your counsel.
10 MR. FIRTH: Yes, I am.
11 MR. MACK: As I say, if at some
12 time during the course of questioning,
13 that issue should arise, I mean,
14 obviously, you gentlemen can talk about
15 it. If it reaches a point where either
16 of you feel that that is no longer a
17 valid premise under which to proceed, I
18 will stop my questions, and allow you to
19 find other counsel to assist you.
20 But in my view, and I want to
21 impress upon you what I consider to be
22 serious issues with respect to John
23 Gaffney's situation, and so serious, as
24 I say, it is my current intention to
25 make a criminal reference concerning his
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2 behavior.
3 I also am aware of other
4 potential criminal charges that he may
5 potentially face in the future, not
6 dealing with this jobsite. That's only
7 potential. It has nothing to do with
8 me. You know, that is not a relevant
9 consideration; it just happened to have
10 come to my attention. My own feeling
11 would be, that we go ahead, and if
12 something arises to shake your
13 confidence in your counsel, which I
14 doubt would occur, if it does, feel free
15 to discuss it.
16 The other jobsite that we are
17 going to discuss today -- you and I have
18 discussed this site indirectly on the
19 cell phone on a Saturday morning, and it
20 deals with Peter Okeefe, Silo
21 Construction. It is a West 96th Street
22 job that Silo did, starting in the end
23 of 2001, going into 2002. He was also
24 the assigned shop steward for that site.
25 We are going to start off my
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2 questioning on that jobsite, and I'll go
3 through it step-by-step. But, in my
4 conversations with John Greaney, he said
5 to me -- I had told him about both
6 jobsites, I don't know if you've talked
7 to him or not, doesn't make much
8 difference, but the point I'm making
9 here is, I only have shop steward
10 reports for both of these sites; I have
11 no records concerning any visits to the
12 site, any efforts done. You and I
13 actually talked about a raid, it is not
14 a big deal, but I have no documentation
15 concerning the raid, either.
16 MR. FIRTH: From Silo?
17 MR. MACK: Concerning Silo, from
18 the District Council, or from 608.
19 Basically, what I want to do --
20 and I would ask that you do so, and that
21 the District Council either has been or
22 will be asked, I will renew my request
23 for data from the District Council on
24 these two jobsites. But what I want you
25 to do, since you are the business agent
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2 assigned to both of these jobsites, I
3 want you to find whatever records that
4 may exist in your own files or in the
5 files of 608 or 608 North, or whoever
6 had responsibility, wherever they might
7 be, whether there's a job folder or no
8 job folder, all I have from 608 are a
9 very modest collection of shop steward
10 reports.
11 MR. FIRTH: I can't give you
12 reports from 106th Street, the Silo job;
13 that's four years ago.
14 MR. MACK: Not quite that. It is
15 2002.
16 MR. FIRTH: Four years ago.
17 MR. MACK: It started at the end
18 of '01 and went into 2002, because I
19 have the shop steward reports. I can't
20 tell from the shop steward reports --
21 MR. FIRTH: I know there were
22 only a few shop steward reports from
23 Mr. Okeefe.
24 MR. MACK: This is your
25 opportunity and my opportunity for you
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2 to educate me with respect to the Silo
3 job.
4 MR. DIENST: Let him ask you the
5 questions before you answer.
6 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
7 MR. MACK: Let me go through a
8 couple of things.
9 I also intend to make a criminal
10 reference with respect to the Silo job
11 on West 96th Street. When I say a
12 criminal reference, I am not saying that
13 your conduct is the subject of my
14 reference. But what I am saying is, I
15 will be referring what I have learned
16 about that jobsite to to a prosecutor
17 for evaluation, I think that's the
18 fairest way to go, on the basis of
19 violations of certain criminal laws.
20 Therefore, what I'm asking is to
21 make sure that whatever records exist,
22 608, District Council, whatever
23 information that may reside in your
24 memory about what happened, because the
25 records, at least as I have found them
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2 so far, are extremely sketchy; extremely
3 sketchy.
4 My feeling is, I think it is
5 important, and would be important,
6 putting my prosecutor's hat on at the
7 moment, meaning if I were a prosecutor
8 how would I see the situation, I would
9 think that it would be very important to
10 have whatever records exist concerning
11 the jobsite.
12 So since I have such a poor --
13 all I have are scattered shop steward
14 reports; and I'm not saying it is 608's
15 fault; I'm saying that in the past on
16 the jobsites that have concerned me, and
17 if you read the Boom report, I don't
18 know whether you did or not, you know
19 how critical I am when the assigned
20 business agent has no record or
21 recollection of what they did on the
22 site. Unfortunately, it permits
23 inferences, which may not be fair, to be
24 drawn.
25 As you know, and I know, I have
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2 no -- basically, not only am I a lame
3 duck, but basically, I'm an
4 investigator.
5 We are in the fact-gathering
6 stage. The two sites have you as
7 business agent, and I have no record
8 from the Carpenters, and I have a lot of
9 records from other people. Those
10 records, I have been through, and I'm
11 assessing those and have assessed them.
12 I want to reiterate very clearly,
13 my mind is open with respect to things
14 that may -- let me mention Gaffney
15 again. I've heard one side, maybe both
16 sides. I had John in here at length, so
17 I am -- I don't want you to take from
18 what I've said to you, that basically my
19 mind is shut and I'm not willing to
20 listen. I'm just doing the best I can
21 to gather whatever other records or
22 information may be pertinent in
23 understanding what happened at these two
24 sites.
25 So, that being said, let me go
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2 through my normal situation, and
3 describe what both you and Dick have
4 heard before.
5 Since this is an interview, and,
6 one, Mr. Dienst and I have talked, and
7 he has agreed that -- I don't know if
8 "prefers" is the right word, but is
9 willing to proceed without a
10 representative of the District Council
11 present. Is that correct?
12 MR. DIENST: That's correct.
13 MR. MACK: Two, I also asked him,
14 because of the nature -- I found that
15 having people from my staff taking
16 notes, it was not really with the
17 clarity and specificity, he's also
18 agreed with me that we could have a
19 reporter taking down the questions and
20 answers as being a more accurate way of
21 knowing what was said; is that correct?
22 MR. DIENST: That's correct.
23 MR. MACK: Since I am an agent of
24 the Court and not an agent of the
25 District Council, and no one knows that
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2 better than me at this time, I have to
3 say, that if I ask you a question which
4 a truthful answer to the question would
5 tend to incriminate you personally,
6 Joe, -- let me say this: I don't
7 believe I will ask such a question. If
8 I thought I would, I would give you that
9 warning, I would say you're a subject of
10 my inquiry, and you better be on notice
11 here that I think you're involved with
12 whatever happened here. I'm not saying
13 that.
14 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
15 MR. MACK: Okay. But the point
16 I'm saying is, that I don't know what's
17 in your mind, I don't know what
18 happened, and there may be issues here
19 in which it would be prudent for you,
20 with a lawyer's advice, to assert the
21 Fifth Amendment. That's your call.
22 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
23 MR. MACK: Just listen to what I
24 say to you. If I ask you a question
25 which a truthful answer would tend to
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2 incriminate you, I would suggest you
3 talk it over with Mr. Dienst and decide
4 what, in your best interest, to do.
5 From my point of view, I've
6 thought about it carefully, I know, I
7 watched you work, I have respect for
8 you, so I don't think I'm going to ask
9 you a question to which your answer
10 would be incriminatory. I would be
11 upset if you were knowledgeable about
12 some of the things I'm now knowledgable
13 about. I don't really know what's in
14 your mind and what happened.
15 And I think there are things --
16 you know, when I don't see any records,
17 things of that nature, that gives me
18 pause. I say, if Joe was there doing
19 something, I would like to know when he
20 was there and what he did and who he
21 spoke to and what happened; because in
22 many respects, that's my view on how
23 things should be done.
24 There's no question in my mind
25 that John Gaffney signed shop steward
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2 reports that bear your signature, in
3 which he is not present for the time he
4 says he is there.
5 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
6 MR. MACK: All I'm saying to you,
7 which is my habit, I say it to every
8 business agent, I've said it to every
9 carpenter I put under oath, that when
10 you speak to me, you have a Fifth
11 Amendment privilege. You can assert it.
12 I can't speak to what the consequences
13 would be, but as far as I'm concerned,
14 you have that right, and you should take
15 it. You don't have a right to tell me
16 something untrue. The only real way
17 that you can get into a problem with me
18 is to tell me an untruth, is to tell me
19 something that you know to be wrong, or
20 to leave out something which you know I
21 should know in order to do my job.
22 Let me see if there's anything
23 else that I should be concerned about.
24 I talked about conflicts, Fifth
25 Amendment; given the subject matter. I
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2 told you I could very well make a
3 criminal reference, and I told you about
4 the jobsites and what I want you to do
5 after you leave today.
6 I spoke to Mr. Greaney about if
7 there are any records of any kind,
8 whether by you or anybody at 608,
9 because what I said to John, what I said
10 to Moe, that Joe Firth is the guy I need
11 to talk to, because he's the business
12 agent assigned to these jobsites. But
13 if there's any other person, business
14 agent at 608 who went there, had
15 involvement with these sites for
16 whatever reason, for instance, Ed Mosley
17 took one of the sites for a week when
18 you were on vacation, or something like
19 that, and he did a report; I think I see
20 Ed on a couple of shop steward reports.
21 MR. FIRTH: 106th Street.
22 MR. MACK: Yes.
23 MR. FIRTH: Might have signed
24 off.
25 MR. MACK: It says, "Joe Firth on
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2 vacation."
3 What I'm saying to Mr. Dienst
4 here, if there is a report or record, a
5 note, a memorandum which reflects a
6 visit and what happened on the visit,
7 and the person who was talked to or in
8 issue, I don't have it, and I should
9 have it. I need to have it.
10 608, they have some shop steward
11 reports, but they don't have a lot of
12 them. There are no memoranda concerning
13 whatever happened, let's say, on the
14 raid, what have you, at the West 96th
15 Street site. I don't have anything
16 except a few shop -- I say a few, very
17 few, at the West 96th Street site. And
18 with respect to the 106th Street site,
19 they are incomplete. The date is
20 missing, the page is missing, and
21 nothing else. I have many more, don't
22 get me wrong, at 106th Street, many
23 more, and I've actually gotten some from
24 the District Council, as well.
25 I'm not so worried about the
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1 J. Firth
2 completeness of the shop steward
3 reports, as the lack of having anything
4 else but shop steward reports.
5 So, the message I'm giving you
6 is, that you, as a representative of
7 608, need to go back, with your
8 counsel's assistance and guidance, and
9 gather every record that I don't have.
10 The only records I do have are shop
11 steward reports, just as to these two
12 sites, and whoever gave them, whether it
13 is John, Ed, Jerry Philbin, whoever
14 else, because my feeling is, I think it
15 is important to have the documentation;
16 and the answer could be, we threw them
17 out, we didn't do it. I've heard every
18 answer in the book as to why there are
19 no records.
20 But the point is, if I don't get
21 any records, I'm going to say -- you
22 know, I'm going to try to say what
23 happened, or they were lost. I want to
24 give an accurate report as to what the
25 story is. Okay?
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2 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
3 MR. MACK: I know you and I have
4 discussed Mr. Okeefe before on the
5 telephone, and I know that you and he
6 have a history of some kind; I don't
7 know what that is, but whatever it is, I
8 want to hear about it today.
9 My prime interests are going to
10 be on this particular jobsite. I have
11 certain exhibits which I'll show you
12 from time to time as they are
13 appropriate. I'm going to proceed
14 pretty muuch chronologically. And any
15 time you want to take a break or you
16 want to talk to Mr. Dienst, you just
17 have to say so; okay?
18 I've tried to be thorough and
19 complete. And eventually you will get a
20 copy of this transcript. Because I'll
21 be gone, I think whatever authority I
22 have -- you may not get it before I make
23 the reference, but you'll definitely get
24 a copy of the transcript, as is my
25 habit, and especially when I think I'm
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2 gone, I'll talk to the new II on what
3 the practice is. But I'm going to make
4 my reference, whether the new person
5 agrees with it or not.
6 Having gone through all of that
7 material, is there any question, Joe,
8 that you have, or any question or
9 statement Mr. Dienst would like to make
10 before we start today? Mr. Dienst?
11 MR. DIENST: I have no statement
12 I wish to make at this time.
13 MR. MACK: Mr. Firth, is there
14 any question you have? I realize this
15 is not the most enjoyable time of the
16 day for you, perhaps, but I'm going to
17 try to be efficient and go through it.
18 Anytime you have a question or my
19 question is not clear or you want to
20 take a break, just tell me.
21 Is there anything you want to
22 ask, or is anything on your mind before
23 I start?
24 MR. FIRTH: No, not at this time.
25 MR. MACK: Okay.
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2 J O S E P H F I R T H, was asked the
3 following questions and gave the following
4 answers:
5 BY MR. MACK:
6 Q Let me ask you, when was the
7 first time that you met Peter Okeefe?
8 A Local 608 union hall.
9 Q Can you give me an approximate
10 year?
11 A No. But I thought this job was
12 in 2001.
13 Q I'll show you the -- I'll show
14 you what I have.
15 A I need to be refreshed.
16 Q I'm going to show you what I
17 have. This is not questioning by ambush.
18 A First time I met him was in the
19 union hall.
20 Q Do you remember the significance
21 or what was the reason he was in the union
22 hall?
23 A To come in with the weekly shop
24 steward sheets.
25 Q Was that the weekly shop steward
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2 sheets for this job on West 96th Street, the
3 Silo job?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Let me just go through a couple
6 of things that trouble me, and let me see
7 whether you have any knowledge about it. Let
8 me ask you the same question to start with.
9 When did you first become familiar or
10 acquainted with Silo Construction?
11 A The time I met Mr. Okeefe, I
12 didn't really know Silo, I never dealt with
13 them before or after that jobsite, and I
14 didn't -- no flags went up; didn't think
15 nothing.
16 Q Do you know why I'm focusing on
17 Silo?
18 A I'm hearing bits and pieces, and
19 I heard bits and pieces after, about Silo.
20 Q What did you hear?
21 A That they may be connected to
22 organized crime.
23 Q Any particular reason why they
24 might be; or what would give anyone reason to
25 believe that they could be?
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2 A No. They are just a dirty
3 company.
4 Q Let me ask you this, it might
5 save a lot of time. What came to your
6 attention that would give you some reason to
7 suspect or believe that they were a dirty
8 company?
9 A It was after this so-called raid
10 where John and Jerry went up. At that time,
11 I was in Florida, visiting my mother who was
12 dying of cancer.
13 Q Sorry.
14 A They told me when I came back,
15 what had happened.
16 Q What did they tell you, Joe?
17 A That they had gone up there, and
18 there was, like, ten men on the job. From
19 what I remember, there was men on the job and
20 only two or three on the sheet. I was a
21 little thrown back. Mr. Okeefe used to come
22 into the office, looking like he could never
23 do nothing wrong; happy, friendly. He would
24 come in and tell me he would be gone a couple
25 of hours a week because of cancer treatment.
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2 I was thrown back when I came back and they
3 told me what was going on up there.
4 Q What did they tell you,
5 besides -- you said there were more
6 carpenters up there than were on the sheets?
7 A Yes, I think a few of them, when
8 they went up there, they were running out of
9 the building.
10 Q Anything else they told you about
11 what might have been wrong with the job?
12 This is John and Jerry.
13 A No. I'm going to go back a
14 little bit.
15 When that job first came out of
16 the ground, was the first time I was up
17 there. There was a problem up there, the
18 concrete guys were putting in the foundation
19 and the Dock Builders were up there; and we
20 got a call from one of the Dock Builders who
21 said there was some nonunion carpenters on
22 the site. I think they were four Polish men.
23 I went up to the site, and I went
24 in, I spoke to the super, and there was some
25 men doing some nonunion work, doing
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1 J. Firth
2 protection work, carpenters, so I told the
3 super -- I guess he was the super at this
4 jobsite --
5 Q Do you know that person's name?
6 A No, I can't remember none of
7 that. I didn't even get to that. You know,
8 those guys don't have cards, they have to
9 leave, or I'm going to shut the whole job
10 down.
11 He tried talking to me, it's only
12 this, that. But I didn't budge. And then
13 himself and another man, I was kind of
14 threatened.
15 Q Go slow, because you know me.
16 A I can't remember. They pretty
17 much made a comment to me, but it was a
18 physical threat; so no matter what, I will
19 not fight on the jobsite, I would always go
20 outside the jobsite.
21 So I went outside the gate; and I
22 said to the guy: Come out here and say that.
23 And he was mouthing off. I said, come out
24 here, let's see you say that; I'll kick the
25 shit out of you in front of your men. He
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2 didn't comment. He left the job and I left.
3 That was the first visit on the jobsite.
4 Q Did you create any type of
5 written document that refers to that
6 incident?
7 A I can't remember at this time.
8 If I did, it is a couple of years ago, I
9 would have got rid of it.
10 Q These are things -- I'm going to
11 give you a piece of paper. I'm going to go
12 back. All of this stuff is very important
13 stuff. There's no question in my mind that
14 this site is going to receive a prosecutor's
15 scrutiny for reasons you will discern in a
16 few moments.
17 Here's a pretty good reason to
18 start with. What I would ask, if and when
19 you guys get a Grand Jury subpoena, it is
20 going to come sooner or later, you might as
21 well go about -- in my opinion, I can't
22 predict what the U.S. Attorney is going to
23 do, what I would do, there would be a Grand
24 Jury subpoena submitted to turn over all
25 documents.
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2 MR. DIENST: Let me explain that
3 to you. The Grand Jury or the
4 prosecutor may perceive you to be the
5 custodian of these records. You're not
6 getting subpoenaed personally.
7 I think what Mr. Mack is saying
8 is, that if you have documents to
9 provide him with, fine; provide them.
10 Despite the fact that you may not be
11 able to provide him with documents, the
12 prosecutor may subpoena any documents in
13 your possession. You're not getting
14 subpoenaed personally, the documents are
15 being subpoenaed.
16 Does that make it clear?
17 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
18 Q Just so that this exercise, which
19 is an important exercise, Joe, I would say if
20 this happened to you tomorrow, the same
21 thing: You call me on the phone and say,
22 Walter, what do I do? The first thing I
23 would tell you to do is write down what
24 happened.
25 A I know that now.
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2 Q The second thing I would tell you
3 to do is: What do we do to deal with a
4 business agent of 608 being threatened on a
5 jobsite, physically? The first thing I would
6 tell you to do, if you were about to be
7 beaten up by a gang of five people, I would
8 call 911.
9 MR. DIENST: It will take more
10 than five.
11 Q The point I'm making is this:
12 I'm not asking you for anything that it is
13 unlikely a prosecutor will ask you for.
14 Let's do it now. I thought I had already
15 done it, not to you directly, I did it with
16 John Greaney and I did it with Moe Leary. I
17 need you to look, because somebody besides me
18 is going to ask you, Joe, when did that
19 occur, did you write something down, who did
20 you tell about it, and what was done.
21 I'm going to ask you those
22 questions now. Number one, did you write
23 anything down at the time about this
24 incident?
25 A I honestly can't remember. I
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1 J. Firth
2 will look. I doubt I kept -- like, every
3 year we get rid of the records now.
4 Q Don't get rid of records.
5 A I have been told that now; keep
6 them as many years as possible.
7 Q They can be your friends.
8 A I'm learning that. If I have
9 anything, I will look, I don't think so.
10 Q Look.
11 Next question: Did you tell
12 anybody about this incident?
13 A Yeah.
14 Q Who?
15 A John Greaney and Jerry Philbin.
16 Q Jerry, unfortunately, I can't
17 speak to, and I notice you're wearing his
18 memory on your sleeve, and that's fine. But
19 John, that's a subject I'm going to talk to
20 John about.
21 Did you tell Jerry and John the
22 full story, or a sanitized version of the
23 story, if you remember?
24 A I told him exactly what happened.
25 Q The people, just so that I get it
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2 right, this incident, were these people
3 workers for Silo Construction?
4 A No, because Silo wasn't there at
5 the time.
6 Q Who were these people working
7 there?
8 A I don't know. Construction
9 manager or general contractor, it was the
10 beginning of the foundation of the building.
11 Q Is there a record at 608? I
12 mean, this is union work?
13 A Golden Vale was the company,
14 Olean, two different names --
15 Q Be careful so Stu gets it right.
16 A -- was the concrete outfit there,
17 but that wasn't who those guys were working
18 for, they were the general contractor, and
19 the construction manager overseeing the
20 building.
21 Q I'll look at the shop steward
22 report in a minute here. Maybe I'll do that
23 right now. I see JBF, 700 Pacific Avenue, as
24 the general contractor.
25 A That sounds familiar. I don't
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1 J. Firth
2 know what it stands for.
3 Q I'll give it to you. This is an
4 exhibit, these are the shop steward reports
5 given to us by the District Council or John
6 Greaney.
7 A District Council. John only had
8 a couple.
9 Q Let me give them to you for your
10 use.
11 A Peter Scalia.
12 Q You go through them and look at
13 them, I'm going to ask you questions about
14 the job. This is the jobsite, 323 West 96th
15 Street. The job starts December '01. Just
16 go through the sheets, you will see what it
17 is.
18 (Pause.)
19 A I'm just reading about the
20 benefits. That should ring a bell. I don't
21 remember Richie Torres --
22 Q I'm not the enemy here. I'm
23 trying to assist you.
24 A I guess -- when he got removed,
25 Richie Torres --
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2 Q Use those. Those are for you to
3 keep. I got them from the District Council
4 or 608.
5 A Am I supposed to notice something
6 here?
7 Q I'm going to take you through all
8 of it.
9 MR. DIENST: Wait for the
10 questions.
11 Q What I'm doing here is, that's
12 all I got, except a few other things I'm
13 going the show you. I have no other record
14 reflecting a visit by a 608 business agent to
15 this jobsite, other than what you are looking
16 at.
17 A Okay.
18 Q What I want to make sure is clear
19 here, is that I've asked you as a
20 representative of 608, and your counsel, to
21 do whatever it takes to find whether there
22 exists, anything other than what I've just
23 shown you. Okay?
24 A Okay.
25 Q You know, my feeling is, that if
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2 I had them, I would show them to you. I'm
3 not trying to trick you, I'm trying to give
4 you the benefit of the doubt, refresh your
5 recollection.
6 Let's start again back on this
7 site. That's all I'm talking about today.
8 That's the site you went to and had this
9 discussion with the gentleman, West 96th
10 Street?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Now, again, let me ask you:
13 Where were these guys from, who did you talk
14 to, or what kind of identification can you
15 give me of this human being who you invited
16 outside the site?
17 A I don't know who they were. They
18 were so-called acting supers for the general
19 contractor.
20 Q When you say the general
21 contractor, the only general contractor whose
22 name I can find so far on this jobsite, is
23 the one shown on the shop steward reports.
24 A That's bringing back a memory.
25 JBF.
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2 Q Was that JBF?
3 A I think so.
4 Q What were that person's words to
5 you, as best you can recall them, that, in
6 your mind, represented a physical threat?
7 A He made a comment about something
8 coming off the building or something -- I
9 really don't remember.
10 Q Give me the substance.
11 A I can't. It was a physical
12 threat, definitely was a physical threat. It
13 was a physical threat.
14 Q All right. Now I have respect
15 for your hardiness as a business agent; and
16 at the same time, there are allegations here,
17 allegations that this site was seen by
18 business agents at 608, as a site in which
19 physical threats would not be an unheard-of
20 thing. In other words, it was a site in
21 which you were not the only individual who
22 may have been threatened concerning it.
23 So I want to ask you this very
24 broad question: Other than this incident,
25 which you've just described to me, were you,
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1 J. Firth
2 to your knowledge, ever threatened in any way
3 again, concerning whether it is JBF, Silo, on
4 this jobsite, West 96th Street site here?
5 A Never.
6 Q Any other occasion?
7 A Never.
8 Q Never. Were you ever told by
9 anybody that they had been threatened, or
10 that they felt threatened with some
11 relationship to this jobsite?
12 A No.
13 Q Think carefully about it.
14 A I'm tying -- did anybody else
15 tell me they were threatened?
16 Q Yes, or give you clues that they
17 were in a threatening environment?
18 A No.
19 Q I'm going to continue for a
20 while. Let me go chronologically. The
21 person who physically threatened you with
22 words that you are unable to recall today --
23 A It was four years ago.
24 Q Well, tell me when it was.
25 A Four years ago.
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2 Q I can read the calendar as well
3 as anybody. But the point is, I don't know
4 when this was, because the shop steward --
5 the job starts in December.
6 A How come -- I'm telling you it is
7 four years ago, and you keep telling me you
8 can read the calendar. This guy wasn't even
9 on the job when I was threatened. I was
10 threatened a year before that, or six months,
11 whatever it is.
12 Q That's what I want to ask you.
13 Listen to my question. My question is, can
14 you put a date --
15 A No.
16 Q -- when it happened, when you
17 were threatened physically?
18 A No. It wasn't too cold out,
19 though, I know that.
20 Q Do you think it was the summer; I
21 mean, you said not too cold. Spring, summer
22 fall?
23 A It would help if I got the shop
24 steward sheets for the concrete company,
25 because it was the beginning of the job.
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2 Q That's great.
3 A It was around warm weather time.
4 That's the best I can do. I don't know if it
5 was the fall or spring, but this job started,
6 looks like December 20. I would say it was
7 probably in the late summer, fall. But
8 that's not definite yet.
9 Q What I'm asking is, because this
10 is my effort to gather whatever facts I can,
11 I wasn't on this jobsite, so I have to rely
12 upon you for any records that would reflect
13 the goings on on this job.
14 I talked to John Greaney,
15 business manager, and I talked to Moe Leary.
16 What I said was, I want any document having
17 to do with this address. So the fact that I
18 don't have the shop steward reports for the
19 concrete contractor, is not because I didn't
20 ask for it.
21 A May I say something?
22 Q Yes.
23 A Did you ask John Greaney
24 specifically for Silo and Prince; am I right?
25 Q My feeling is, I'm here in a
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2 search for information. One of the reasons
3 that I'm talking to you and Mr. Dienst today
4 is to say: Look, these are my problems,
5 these are my questions; I'm asking for your
6 information, and if there's other information
7 that would help me in understanding what
8 happened here, please provide it to me so
9 that I can do a better job of being accurate.
10 That's really how you should see what I'm
11 doing.
12 If I was going to be accusing you
13 of wrongdoing, this interview would have
14 started differently.
15 MR. DIENST: What he is also
16 suggesting that you do, is listen to the
17 questions that he asks you. Answer the
18 questions that he asks you.
19 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
20 Q If my question starts, isn't it a
21 fact that X, Y, Z, then you have reason to be
22 upset with me. I'm not asking questions that
23 way, Joe, I'm asking questions: Can you help
24 me, do you know what it is, is there a
25 record, do you remember.
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2 A No. It was definitely four years
3 ago, because it was when my mother was sick.
4 Q I'm not challenging that; I'm
5 going by the record. That's why I want the
6 records. The only records I have, show me
7 the job starting in December 2001. If there
8 are other records showing ten years ago, I'm
9 asking for them, because I'm trying to figure
10 out what happened here, and I'm looking to
11 you for help in doing so. Okay?
12 A Yes.
13 Q You were threatened. This person
14 who physically threatened you with words that
15 you don't recall, and I can understand, but
16 you understood it as a threat, right?
17 A Yes, I did.
18 Q Can you describe this human being
19 to me?
20 A Fifties, early fifties; Italian.
21 Q Early fifties, Italian. Height,
22 weight?
23 A About 5'8", 5'9", stocky.
24 Q Have you ever seen this human
25 being again anywhere, anyplace?
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2 A No.
3 Q You're sure?
4 A Yeah.
5 Q Was he a carpenter or not, was he
6 a union member or not, if you know?
7 A No.
8 Q You don't know or he wasn't?
9 A To my knowledge, he wasn't.
10 Q Did you try to card these people
11 on the site when you were up there at this
12 time?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q Did any of them have cards?
15 A No.
16 Q What was the total there, four or
17 five? I'm not sure what you told me.
18 A From what I remember, it was
19 four.
20 Q One of them was this gentleman
21 who threatened you?
22 A No. Besides -- there was four
23 guys besides him. He came over when I asked
24 them for the union cards.
25 Q How was he dressed; did he have
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2 tools on?
3 A Just dressed casual.
4 Q Does that mean a shirt --
5 A Jeans and a pair of boots.
6 Q No tools?
7 A No.
8 Q To your knowledge, did this
9 individual who threatened you, indicate his
10 relationship to the job, or what his position
11 was, or anything about him?
12 A Excuse me. I think basically he
13 was the super overseeing the job.
14 Q You're going to try to find me
15 shop steward reports, if they exist?
16 A They would be in the Council. We
17 don't keep shop steward reports that long.
18 Q I would encourage you again,
19 perhaps to consider the significance of
20 maintaining your own records. That's
21 something for you for the future, long after
22 I'm gone.
23 A I can't get them from the
24 Council; you have to get them.
25 Q I'll get them. In terms of the
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1 J. Firth
2 Council, I'll get them. If I don't get them,
3 I'll find out why. I've had that experience
4 on another matter. I'm good at that.
5 A Okay.
6 Q The point I want to make is, I
7 want to now go to the appointment of the shop
8 steward, Mr. Okeefe, the gentleman who you
9 see there on the very front page of that
10 exhibit, which I think is -- whatever the
11 number is on the front, JF-24.
12 (Shop steward reports, West 96th
13 marked Exhibit JF-24.)
14 Q Did you have any role or any kind
15 or participation in the selection or the
16 dispatch of Mr. Okeefe to that jobsite?
17 A None whatsoever.
18 Q Did you ever discuss with anyone,
19 whether a business agent, Mr. Okeefe or
20 another carpenter, how he got to that
21 jobsite?
22 A I may have talked to Jerry or
23 John about it. I can't be definite, but I'm
24 sure you have the dispatch, and you'll show
25 me that there was definitely unusual
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2 qualifications put in.
3 Q You bet; you bet, Joe.
4 What I'm asking you is, what is
5 your knowledge of that subject?
6 A I don't know.
7 Q Do you have any recollection
8 that --
9 A No.
10 Q You say they are unusual skills.
11 Is that based upon your review at the time,
12 or is it, how did this guy get there, or is
13 it based on something recently that you have
14 looked at?
15 A No, no, I didn't look at it.
16 From what I am thinking, -- I found out later
17 on that he worked for them in the Bronx. Am
18 I right?
19 Q You bet.
20 MR. MACK: Is it the Bronx or
21 Manhattan?
22 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: I think it was
23 the Bronx.
24 A It was the Bronx. I never came
25 across these guys in Manhattan, so -- I think
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2 later on, after all this crap, we put
3 together that he was part of them; you know,
4 he was in cahoots with them, from before,
5 too.
6 Q I'm putting that together, too.
7 Right now, what I'm asking you
8 is, what is your recollection, or what did
9 you learn? I want the benefit of your
10 knowledge and assessment of what happened
11 here. That's one of the reasons you're here
12 today.
13 What happened here; how did this
14 guy get to this jobsite?
15 A The Council sent him.
16 Q Let's be careful. True, he was
17 dispatched from the out-of-work list, but
18 what about the skills that went on and what
19 have you; did you ever look at it and form
20 your own opinion that something didn't look
21 right to you?
22 A I can't remember if I did or I
23 didn't, at this time.
24 Q Didn't you just tell me just a
25 second ago, you looked at it, and it
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1 J. Firth
2 looked --
3 A Later on, I probably might have
4 looked at it again. I figure this guy was in
5 cahoots with them. He was in the Bronx.
6 Q No question he is in the Bronx.
7 No question as to how he got to this jobsite.
8 What I'm trying to figure out is, what, if
9 any, knowledge, and when did you figure this
10 out, or how did you figure it out, if you
11 remember?
12 Let me say it again. You're not
13 wrong.
14 A I know. That's the first time I
15 met him. I never knew this guy. I'm only
16 putting bits and pieces -- you have more
17 information than I have.
18 Q I'm just a lawyer. You were
19 there.
20 A I'm just a dumb carpenter.
21 Q Don't play that one on me. I
22 have been through that. This is your
23 jobsite. You're the guy in the sense that he
24 is supposed to be reporting to you, and you
25 are telling me, if I hear you correctly, at
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2 some time you came to at least the impression
3 or opinion that something wasn't right about
4 his getting to this jobsite, and I'm trying
5 to find out when and why you came to that
6 conclusion.
7 A I came to the conclusion he was
8 in cahoots with them, after it happened. I
9 don't know how we found out that he worked
10 with them in the Bronx, but we definitely
11 found out he was in the Bronx.
12 Q You can look at what his last
13 jobs were.
14 A I think I asked for a bunch of
15 dispatches for his history.
16 Q When did you do that?
17 A After I came back from Florida,
18 after all this crap went on.
19 Q Lay out for me, the crap.
20 A Where Jerry and John went up to
21 the job when I wasn't around, because they
22 had got the call that there was something
23 wrong going on up there, and either there was
24 guys working there that were not on the
25 sheets, or there might have been cash going
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2 on, or something. I wasn't there.
3 Q You didn't hear what they said
4 about what they found?
5 A When I came back, Jerry told me
6 about it.
7 Q Jerry Philbin?
8 A Yes.
9 Q What did he say?
10 A I can't give exact words. It is
11 a couple of years ago. But he pretty much
12 told me the motherfucker Okeefe was up there
13 fucking around. I think Jerry is the one
14 that replaced him.
15 Q I'm going to show you the
16 dispatch.
17 A Okay.
18 Q The point I'm trying to get, I
19 hear what Jerry did. Did John ever weigh in
20 what's going on here? When did you figure
21 out that Okeefe had been on an earlier Silo
22 job?
23 A Well, first of all, I felt like
24 an idiot that I got the wool pulled by this
25 guy. I just thought he was such a nice guy.
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2 Q What was his behavior?
3 A He would be smiling. How's the
4 job? We are still laying out. Just small
5 talk. If you look at him, you think -- I
6 would never think he was involved with
7 corruption, you know.
8 Q Things are often not what they
9 seem, Joe.
10 A I learned that in the last five
11 years.
12 Q But the point is this: There's a
13 lot more to this than you may know, and so I
14 want to go through it.
15 A I'm sure.
16 Q I don't want you to assume that
17 Okeefe is all bad, either; I don't want you
18 to lay everything off on him.
19 A I'll save that opinion to later.
20 Q Reserve judgment. I need your
21 help in telling me what you saw and heard.
22 Did you know that Okeefe was having cancer
23 treatment, and was basically --
24 A He had told me that. Actually,
25 he showed me some paperwork from some
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2 hospital.
3 Q During the time he was on this
4 job?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Did he say that that prevented
7 him from being there all the time, that he
8 had to go for health care?
9 A No. He would be missing one or
10 two hours a week in the afternoon because of
11 chemo, I think. I think he was going up to
12 Columbia Presbyterian, I think he said.
13 Q Did you talk to him about why he
14 wouldn't be on the site at certain times
15 because of his chemo?
16 A No, it wasn't major time. He was
17 only going to be gone an hour.
18 MR. DIENST: Were you
19 particularly sensitive about this
20 because of any personal situation?
21 MR. FIRTH: At the time, my
22 mother was dying of cancer. Yeah, I
23 was. That was another thing, too.
24 Q My feeling is, notwithstanding
25 being called abusive by the President of the
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2 District Council, and this is an inside joke,
3 the point I'm making here is, I'm sensitive
4 to the need to accommodate somebody who has a
5 health issue. I'm trying to find out, did
6 you try to accommodate him with respect to
7 his chemo?
8 A Yes, I cut him -- sure, I wasn't
9 going to tell him that he was going to stay
10 on the job. It wasn't like he was supposedly
11 missing days at a time. It was only a couple
12 of hours a week.
13 Q Did you make any record of any
14 kind, that you had given him permission to be
15 away two hours on Wednesday, or whatever time
16 it was?
17 A No.
18 Q Did he note on any of his shop
19 steward reports -- he didn't; but I mean, the
20 point is, did you ever have, as the subject
21 of conversation, that when you're not there,
22 just note that you're not there; if the
23 contractor wants to pay you for your chemo;
24 fine?
25 A At that time I probably didn't
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2 tell him that. At that time, we weren't at
3 where we are now.
4 Q True.
5 A It was a learning process. I'm
6 going to say no, I didn't ask him to make any
7 notes on the sheet.
8 Q Let's go back to the subject of
9 his appointment to this job as shop steward.
10 Either at the time of his appointment or at a
11 later time, did you come to the opinion or
12 conclusion that there had been some
13 manipulation in order to get him to this
14 jobsite on West 96th Street?
15 A I can't remember. I would have
16 to see the thing.
17 Q "I can't remember." That's your
18 answer; right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q I