1
1
2 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
3 -------------------------------------------x
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
4
Plaintiff,
5 90 CIV 5722
-against- (CSH)
6
DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
7 AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED
BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND
8 JOINERS OF AMERICA, et.al.,
9 Defendants
-------------------------------------------x
10 Independent Investigator Interview
11 September 7, 2005
5:00 o'clock p.m.
12
13
14 INTERVIEW OF DECLAN DALY, taken at the
15 offices of Doar, Rieck & Mack, Esqs., 217
16 Broadway, 7th Floor, New York, New York, before
17 Margaret Eustace, a Shorthand Reporter and Notary
18 Public within and for the State of New York.
19
20
21
22
23 TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
305 Madison Avenue 142 Willis Avenue
24 Suite 449 P.O. Box 347
New York, NY 10165 Mineola, NY 11501
25 (212) 349-9692 (516) 741-5235
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1
A P P E A R A N C E S :
2
DOAR RIECK & MACK, ESQS.
3 217 Broadway, 7th Floor
New York, New York 10007-2911
4
BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.
5 Independent Investigator
6
7 LAW OFFICES OF JOHN N. TASOLIDES, P.C.
Attorney for Witness
8 6800 Jericho Turnpike, 110W
Syosset, New York 11791
9
BY: JOHN N. TASOLIDES, ESQ.
10
11 ALSO PRESENT:
12 DON SOBOCIENSKI, Investigator
13 WILLIAM CALLAHAN, UNITEL
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2 MR. MACK: On the record.
3 I do want to say I have told Mr.
4 Tasolides earlier that as of August 26th is the
5 actual entry of the order, Judge Haight has
6 appointed William Callahan as the Independent
7 Investigator. And he is here. He is actually a
8 court officer at this time.
9 However, Judge Haight, in a prior
10 opinion, indicated that I would have two months,
11 in essence, to wind up and complete the work that
12 I was doing. And Mr. Callahan has asked that I
13 continue working on the various investigations
14 that I have been working on. And they are OnPar
15 Construction, or OnPar Companies, as they are, is
16 one of those investigations.
17 So he has authorized me, Mr. Callahan
18 has authorized me to proceed today with today's
19 testimony of your client.
20 MR. TASOLIDES: Okay.
21 MR. MACK: I have explained that
22 generally to you. I hope that's consistent
23 with --
24 MR. CALLAHAN: Yes. I can't add any
25 more to that. So we can proceed.
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2 MR. MACK: So I have a considerable
3 time sort of explaining what's going on, why you
4 are here, what rights you have, some of which I
5 have mentioned to Mr. Tasolides beforehand. But
6 it's a fairly long process, but it's designed to
7 ensure that Judge Haight or his clerks, who will
8 eventually read this transcript, that you have
9 been treated fairly and that you've had all the
10 rights explained to you.
11 I would suggest you are represented by
12 able counsel today. You will have a chance to say
13 or raise any questions, things of that nature.
14 But a lot this is very fundamental material, all
15 of which I say to every witness who appears before
16 me, who has appeared before me. They are
17 important things, so please listen to them and
18 raise any questions that you may have.
19 Now up until August 26 I was the
20 Independent Investigator. The Independent
21 Investigator, I am one, and here is my successor,
22 we are appointed by the Judge, we are court
23 officers. I was -- and he is -- appointed by a
24 Federal District Court Judge. As such, there are
25 orders which specifically provide what authority
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2 we have. And since I am functioning under the
3 order of Mr. Callahan at the time, I should tell
4 you that the role is primarily one of gathering
5 facts and writing reports.
6 The Independent Investigator is not a
7 prosecutor, nor is it a defense counsel or defense
8 lawyer. Its purpose primarily is to comply with
9 the court order, gather facts and report them for
10 action, either by the parties, or by the Court, or
11 by whomever.
12 Now as I think you may be aware, there
13 has been an investigation underway of various, I
14 will call them Jim Murray companies. And the
15 general subject matter of that investigation is to
16 try to determine whether or not the Carpenters'
17 union and non-union working for his companies,
18 have been paid appropriate wage and benefits.
19 And I know this is not a shock, but we
20 have concluded that they have not for the most
21 part, and that it is an important part of the
22 investigation to try to determine who were
23 responsible for that and to try to quantify to
24 some extent what the deficiencies are so that the
25 benefit funds and the carpenters involved can be
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2 made whole.
3 And what I have said to your counsel is
4 I know you have been interviewed on a prior
5 occasion under the auspices of the District
6 Council. I actually, at his request, furnished a
7 copy of at least the interviewer, who works for me
8 at the time, what his recorded recollection of
9 that interview was. And I believe you actually, I
10 think it's a sworn statement as I remember what it
11 was.
12 What I have said to your counsel, which
13 I think is an important aspect, is that as long as
14 you tell the truth today and honor your oath --
15 and you will be given an oath in a short period of
16 time -- it is not my intention to recommend, and I
17 would recommend to Mr. Callahan that you not be
18 prosecuted for making a false statement to the
19 District Council at the time, or making a false
20 sworn statement. And that is contingent upon your
21 honoring your oath today.
22 Because probably the most important
23 thing I say in this introductory phase is that if
24 you lie under oath to me or Mr. Callahan --
25 MR. CALLAHAN: Yes.
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2 MR. MACK: -- or try to deceive us or
3 evade the truth, there are two federal criminal
4 laws which apply to that conduct. One is perjury,
5 which is lying under oath. The other one is
6 obstruction of justice, because Mr. Callahan is a
7 court officer and I am functioning as his agent
8 here. If you do not tell us truth, you are
9 preventing me and Mr. Callahan, as agents of the
10 Court, in finding out what the facts are and
11 holding people accountable.
12 I am not saying anything to you that I
13 haven't said to every carpenter who has appeared,
14 every person who's appeared. But probably the
15 most important thing I say to you today, and I
16 think counsel probably will agree and has probably
17 advised you, that once you are under oath, you
18 should think carefully about your answers. They
19 should be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
20 but the truth.
21 And I will tell you this -- I tell this
22 to everyone: If I determine that you have lied to
23 me and Mr. Callahan, or have sought to deceive us
24 for any reason, I will recommend -- I can't
25 predict what the outcome will be -- that you be
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2 prosecuted for that crime. It's a serious crime.
3 It carries with it large fines and significant
4 prison time. I don't expect you to do that. I
5 would very disappointed if you did, because the
6 consequences are just not worth it.
7 One of the reasons that we go through
8 the trouble of sending a notice and requiring this
9 proceeding, with a stenographer to take down every
10 word that is said, is to ensure that we have an
11 accurate record and that we know what your answers
12 were, so that you are treated fairly and it's not
13 a question of somebody writing a note or something
14 misdone. So I want you to understand how
15 important that is.
16 The next thing: Because this is
17 conducted under the auspices of the Court, you
18 have -- as any person would have, whether in front
19 of Judge Haight or his agents, which Mr. Callahan
20 and I are -- the right to take the Fifth
21 Amendment, which basically means: Hey, I think my
22 answer to that question would tend to incriminate
23 me personally, and therefore I exercise my
24 constitutional right to refuse to answer that
25 question.
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2 Now what I would suggest to you is that
3 before you do that, that you consult with your
4 counsel here today about the wisdom of doing that
5 under the circumstances. What I did say to him
6 and what I want to repeat to you are the
7 following: You have that right. Very few OnPar
8 carpenters have exercised that right. Because
9 most people who have had the experience of working
10 for the OnPar companies have realized now, being
11 that evidence is being produced by the banks, and
12 things of that nature, that there is really
13 nothing to be gained by doing anything other than
14 being truthful.
15 Many, even most -- I would say most of
16 the OnPar carpenters who have appeared before me,
17 in one form or the other, have testified under
18 oath, in my view, truthfully and accurately and
19 completely. There are some exceptions to that.
20 However, they have all been told about a possible
21 Fifth Amendment right. And what I said to them, I
22 am saying the same thing to you.
23 If you exercise your Fifth Amendment
24 right, I'm going to notify the District Council
25 that you have done so. It's just a matter of
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2 their deciding, they don't recognize a Fifth
3 Amendment right. And there is the additional
4 issue of what you told them at the time that you
5 appeared there.
6 Two, I notify a prosecutor, usually the
7 Manhattan District Attorney's Office, or the U.S.
8 Attorney, and I say, "I don't know why Mr. Daly
9 took the Fifth. I can guess. But if you want to
10 consider prosecuting him or not, that's your
11 decision."
12 As I say, I am not a prosecutor. My
13 feeling is a just result here does not result in
14 Declan Daly being in jail for a criminal offense.
15 But that's your choice. You can make that
16 decision as to whether you want to take that risk
17 or not.
18 Finally, if you do take the Fifth,
19 recognize this: I have a lot of checks with your
20 name on it, that I know are not basically ones
21 that are consistent with a collective bargaining
22 agreement. I am aware in the broadest sense of
23 the benefits paid on your behalf and I know they
24 don't match your hours and they don't match the
25 hours that you worked. So I can simply conclude,
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2 on the basis of the records I have, whether you
3 tell me or not, that basically -- they call it
4 inferring from the evidence -- that you worked
5 from a non-collective bargaining agreement for a
6 period of time.
7 I don't know where. I don't know who
8 was responsible. I don't know who was there. So
9 it's not as good as a response from you, and I do
10 need your help and I am not going to say that I
11 don't. But the fact is, whether or not you did or
12 did not work for the rate is not really an issue I
13 am going to spend a lot of time on, whether you
14 take the Fifth or not.
15 So my view, and my recommendation to
16 your counsel, has been: Look, this may not be the
17 greatest fun that you have on a Wednesday
18 afternoon in September, and I appreciate the
19 situation. But given the circumstances, given
20 what is going on, the best thing for you and every
21 journeyman to do, who has been in the situation,
22 is simply make a clean breast of it. Get the
23 facts out and be part of the solution to the
24 issue, rather than part of the problem. That's my
25 advice, but basically follow your own and make
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2 your own decision. And you have counsel to do
3 that.
4 Now there are a couple of other things
5 that I should tell you. As I told you, I am not a
6 prosecutor, nor is Mr. Callahan. He is a
7 fact-gatherer. We can't predict what the Judge
8 will do, we can't predict what the District
9 Council will do. But I think it's fairly certain
10 that if you don't cooperate and don't help, that
11 your future as a union carpenter is somewhat
12 limited.
13 I don't know what the District Council
14 would do and will do. But certainly on value, and
15 I urged upon the District Council, as well as Mr.
16 Callahan, that when carpenters come in and help
17 rectify a situation, they should be treated
18 differently and more leniently than those who, in
19 essence, take the view: I am not helping, I'll
20 never provide any information, let them do what
21 they want with me.
22 That pretty much in my view, if that
23 position is taken, means there needs to be another
24 skill in your employment other than carpentry.
25 That's probably a summary of that view. But you
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2 are a free agent and you can take whatever
3 position you wish to take.
4 I know that our view has consistently
5 been, whether you have counsel or not is entirely
6 up to you. My general view is, I prefer counsel,
7 because I am less worried that you are not clear
8 on what your legal rights are, what have you, so I
9 am glad to have Mr. Tasolides here. He's been a
10 prosecutor. He's experienced in this area.
11 What I would say to you is this: Any
12 question that you have, please raise it either
13 with me -- I will give you that opportunity in a
14 moment. If you want to go outside the room and
15 discuss with Mr. Tasolides anything at all that is
16 in your mind -- what about this? What about that?
17 -- please do so. The judge would be very unhappy
18 with me were he to think that you were treated
19 unfairly by me and that I didn't go through these
20 rights and remedies.
21 What is the result going to be? I can
22 tell you that Mr. Murray faces a pretty serious
23 situation because of the impact on the benefit
24 funds, which it's in the multi-millions of dollars
25 of benefits that haven't been paid. When you look
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2 at it from an actuarial point of view, ten years
3 hence, fifteen years hence, when you are maybe not
4 quite as strong and other carpenters are looking
5 for more help, it's really over a hundred million
6 dollars by the time you figure it, in terms of
7 benefits and health.
8 So it's a consequential number for
9 people who, when they get older, and perhaps are
10 not able to do as many boards or something of that
11 nature, it will make a difference for those
12 people, whether they have access to that money or
13 not. And the decision of whether or not to
14 proceed criminally against Mr. Murray is not for
15 me. It's for the U.S. Attorney to consider. But
16 the numbers are high, and it's a serious matter
17 not paying benefits to hard-working carpenters,
18 for whatever reason.
19 Those are his problems and those are
20 things that he's going to have to deal with. My
21 position with respect to him is very different
22 than my position with respect to you in terms of
23 what the future should bring. That doesn't mean
24 he's a bad person. It just means that he may have
25 made some mistakes in decision-making. It is not
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2 for me to parse those out and work them out.
3 That having been said, let me ask you
4 this: Do you have any questions that you would
5 like to ask me about what we are doing here? Why
6 you are here? Why we've tracked you down? We
7 were eventually going to get to you sooner or
8 later. It was just a matter of time before we
9 started calling out the helicopters and the
10 ninjas. We are glad to see you here is what it
11 boils down to, but this day would have to come
12 eventually. I know it may not be the most
13 pleasant thing, but it's an unpleasant duty that
14 needs to be done so that we can accomplish
15 whatever roles, whatever jobs we have here.
16 Having said all of that, is there
17 anything you would like to ask me about what is
18 happening today or what's going on, or anything at
19 all on your mind?
20 Fire away.
21 THE WITNESS: I would just like to see
22 the checks.
23 MR. MACK: Sure, I'll show you some of
24 the checks. There are some questions, and you'll
25 get a chance -- you won't get a chance to see all
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2 of them because there are thousands of checks.
3 They're just starting to come in.
4 For reasons that I'm sure Mr. Murray is
5 questioning, he paid many, many of his carpenters
6 by check is what it boils down to. There was a
7 period when he paid them cash, but there also was
8 a period, a long period -- and the checks
9 themselves totaling in how many millions of
10 dollars?
11 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Twenty.
12 MR. MACK: $20 million in checks.
13 There are some checks, we are not sure whether
14 they are yours or not. We don't have every check.
15 We have a lot of checks -- I can't warrant to you
16 what I'll show you -- but we will eventually have
17 them all.
18 So one of the things that you've got to
19 be careful about is assuming I won't get any more,
20 because I will get more. My feeling is you are
21 going to want to cover as if I had them all today.
22 I don't want to reach a, well, he never told us he
23 was getting checks this month, you know, the bank
24 comes in with a whole series of Declan Daly
25 checks, in a month in which you say you were doing
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2 something else.
3 So there are some questions exactly
4 whether or not Declan Daly is you or not.
5 THE WITNESS: Okay.
6 MR. MACK: There may be another.
7 THE WITNESS: There is.
8 MR. MACK: And so I want to ask you
9 about that. I don't want you to be telling me
10 anything that's inaccurate. If there's another
11 Declan Daly or a Dermot Daly, because we do have
12 that name. We have a different writing on Declan
13 Daly. You've got to help us on that.
14 I am not saying we know everything.
15 I'm just saying we happen to know a lot, but we
16 don't know everything; otherwise, I wouldn't
17 bother to be talking to you. We need your help.
18 And I'm perfectly willing to tell you that's an
19 important reason. And I would say, were the judge
20 to ask me, your coming and testifying was of
21 value. That's one of the reasons why I say that I
22 will not recommend that you be prosecuted for your
23 false statements to District Council, because you
24 are here to help us. And I am asking for your
25 help, so I don't want that to be lost in my
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2 discussion.
3 So other than looking -- in other
4 words, that's a long-winded answer, saying I have
5 some checks but I don't have every check. My
6 guess is that some of those checks have your
7 writing on them.
8 Anything else that you would like to
9 ask?
10 THE WITNESS: No.
11 MR. MACK: Okay.
12 John, we spent a few moments before we
13 started this afternoon, and as I said to you, I
14 think I've covered most of what I said there, but
15 is there any concern or question you'd like to ask
16 me about what we are doing or concerns that you
17 have?
18 MR. TASOLIDES: Not at this moment.
19 MR. MACK: Okay.
20 Now I do want to introduce Don
21 Sobocienski, who, basically, is the brains of the
22 old II organization. He's an investigator who's
23 spent time with a number of our carpenters, as I
24 have. But he often has a greater facility and
25 knowledge of the detail than I do. He is here as
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2 a necessary part of my team, the old II team, and
3 will ask questions from time to time, have some
4 questions to ask as well. He works, basically,
5 with me and we are working to assist the new
6 Independent Investigator by finishing off
7 investigations that we have started in times here.
8 Mr. Callahan I have already introduced.
9 He's the court officer and the person who holds
10 the appointment of Judge Haight right now, which
11 is what it boils down to.
12 Okay. Anything further on any other
13 subjects before we begin?
14 MR. TASOLIDES: Do you want to talk to
15 me?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 MR. MACK: Fine.
18 (Discussion held off the record.)
19 MR. MACK: Let's go back on the record.
20 After that consultation, any further
21 questions or issues or anything that we want to
22 discuss?
23 MR. TASOLIDES: No.
24 MR. MACK: Okay. So let me ask that
25 the witness be put under oath.
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2 Whereupon,
3 DECLAN DALY
4 after having been first duly sworn, was examined
5 and testified as follows:
6 EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. MACK:
8 Q. Would you please state and spell for
9 the record your name?
10 A. Declan Daly -- D-E-C-L-A-N, D-A-L-Y.
11 Q. And could you tell us where you reside
12 and give us your phone numbers?
13 A. 45-48 43rd Street, Sunnyside, Queens,
14 New York, 11104. Telephone number: 718-482-0235.
15 Cell phone number: 347-262-7654.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Daly, I am going to show you
17 what we have done here. I have put some tags on.
18 These numbers mean absolutely nothing other than
19 to help you keep track of what I am showing you.
20 So I want to show you a copy of what I
21 have marked DD-1, and ask is this a copy,
22 basically, of the notice requiring your eventual
23 appearance before me?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. And to a number of various
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2 back-and-forth issues, you are here today in
3 response to that.
4 Would that be fair?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. One of the things we asked you for was
7 to bring in certain documents for us, and I notice
8 that you have an envelope there.
9 Can you tell us what you brought today?
10 A. My W-2s, statements, benefit checks and
11 paychecks.
12 Q. When you say "paychecks," are they --
13 A. Pay stubs.
14 Q. Pay stubs?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now for the purposes of broad
17 questioning here, are those records records of
18 payments that are made consistent with the
19 collective bargaining agreement rates, as far as
20 you know?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So none of the checks that are made out
23 in a non-collective bargaining agreement rate are
24 available from you?
25 A. No.
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2 Q. There are none, right?
3 A. No.
4 Q. What I would like to do is have those
5 copied. You will get the originals back.
6 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: I will do it.
7 MR. TASOLIDES: Would it be possible
8 to make a second set for me?
9 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Sure.
10 MR. TASOLIDES: Thank you.
11 Q. Is there anything else that you brought
12 us that is either required by the notice DD-1, or
13 is helpful in understanding the subject matter of
14 our questioning this afternoon?
15 A. Just the social security number is my
16 tax ID number.
17 Q. And that is because I know in your
18 interview there was a time in which your number
19 was not legitimate, right?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. But the one on the card here is
22 correct.
23 Is that right?
24 A. Yes, that's from the IRS.
25 MR. MACK: So I would like to have a
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2 copy of that, just make a copy of that when he
3 comes back.
4 We will make one for you, John, as
5 well.
6 MR. TASOLIDES: Thank you.
7 Q. Now what I intend to do today is go
8 through in a chronological fashion, which is when
9 you came, how you first got work, and what have
10 you.
11 But before I do that, I want to cover
12 one issue that we talked a little bit about here.
13 Our guess, and it is a guess, is that the checks
14 which are included in this Exhibit DD-4 are yours.
15 And I would like you to take a look at it.
16 This is a copy for yourself. As I told
17 you, these are not the only checks that we have,
18 but it's our view that this may be you in terms of
19 negotiation of your checks. Just take a look at
20 them to see if they are or not.
21 (Witness perusing).
22 MR. TASOLIDES: In other words, look
23 and determine if that's your signature or not.
24 Q. One quick way you can answer the
25 question, because each check has a different
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2 number on it, so we tried to put together what we
3 believed to be common signatures.
4 But if there is a particular check that
5 is yours or one that isn't, your answer can be:
6 "Well, 0102 is, but number such-and-such is not,"
7 or, "One looks close and one isn't." Because I
8 have another collection to show you and ask you
9 the same question.
10 A. Check 2497, I don't think it's my
11 handwriting.
12 Check 212 -- 0212 doesn't seem to be
13 mine either.
14 Check number 1212 doesn't seem to be
15 mine neither. I think that's about it.
16 Q. So would it be fair to say that the
17 ones collected in that exhibit which you didn't
18 just mention to me bear your signature?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I am going to show you another
21 collection of checks, also made out to Declan
22 Daly, and ask -- we grouped them as separately,
23 but maybe some of these are or are not.
24 If you would just take a look at that
25 collection. And that's DD-3.
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2 (Witness complies.)
3 A. None of those are mine.
4 Q. None of those are yours, okay.
5 So let me ask this question: Do you
6 know who is the person that signed the checks as
7 Declan Daly in DD-3?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Tell us who that is?
10 A. He is Declan Daly.
11 Q. Where does he reside?
12 A. As far as I know, he is at home in
13 Ireland.
14 Q. Was he a friend of yours or someone
15 that you knew on the job?
16 A. I only seen him through OnPar. That's
17 the only time I seen him.
18 Q. Can you tell us anything about him
19 other than you saw him now and then at OnPar and
20 you believe that he is in Ireland at the moment?
21 A. Yes, he is in Ireland.
22 Q. Do you know when he went to Ireland?
23 A. I have no idea. I think he went last
24 year sometime.
25 Q. Is there an individual named Dermot
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1 D. Daly
2 Daly?
3 A. Not that I know of.
4 Q. Not that you know of, okay.
5 What I would like to do is --
6 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Wait. He has a
7 brother -- Damian. I believe the brother also has
8 checks.
9 MR. MACK: All right. Okay.
10 Q. Does your brother Damian also work for
11 OnPar?
12 A. He does, yes.
13 Q. Currently?
14 A. He has left them actually now.
15 Q. We are still in the process of
16 gathering every check. And it is at least
17 possible in the future that, based upon the
18 signatures that you've told us about in DD-4 being
19 yours, we may have a further collection to ask you
20 about to make sure. But we will probably be able
21 to do that by mail through your counsel, Mr.
22 Tasolides.
23 What I would like to do now is have you
24 take me through in chronological fashion how you
25 came to be associated with OnPar or OnPar
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1 D. Daly
2 companies. Now recognize that you certainly do
3 not know every OnPar company or every name, one
4 way or another, so when I ask you about an OnPar
5 company, there are a number of companies in which
6 Mr. Murray paid and people worked for.
7 So my question is, when did you first
8 start working for OnPar? How did that come to
9 pass? Even if it wasn't for OnPar, but it was for
10 some other company that was part of the OnPar
11 family? That is included in the question.
12 Do you understand what I have just
13 said?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you just start us, when did you
16 first work for an OnPar company?
17 A. Well, you mean OnPar company? I only
18 started at OnPar in 2002.
19 Q. Let me ask a different question: When
20 did you first start performing work as a
21 carpenter?
22 A. In 2000.
23 Q. And was that in this country?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What were the circumstances? Tell me a
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1 D. Daly
2 little bit about that.
3 A. Just different companies, working for
4 the same thing -- cash, checks.
5 Q. So I would like to know, in other
6 words, when did you come to this country?
7 A. The 20th of April of 1998.
8 Q. Did you find employment as a carpenter
9 shortly after you got here?
10 A. No, not until around 2000. Maybe late
11 1999.
12 Q. Okay. Let's say 2000, maybe late 1999.
13 What was the first company that you did
14 carpentry work for?
15 MR. TASOLIDES: If you remember. Don't
16 guess.
17 A. Tribilt Construction.
18 Q. Tribilt Construction, is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. We are very familiar with Tribilt
21 Construction is what it boils down to. We
22 actually have written a report about Tribilt
23 Construction.
24 How did you come to work for Tribilt?
25 A. I can't remember, to tell you the
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2 truth.
3 Q. Do you know who hired you? Was it Noel
4 or Dermot?
5 A. I would be guessing. I would say
6 through the office. You ring up and get a phone
7 call back to go to a job.
8 Q. Now the reason I tell you that we have
9 written a long report about Tribilt is to ease
10 your concern that you are giving us information
11 that we don't have... about Tribilt. Tribilt is
12 the subject of a long report represented by
13 counsel. And so we know a lot about Tribilt --
14 not to say we know everything about Tribilt, but
15 we know a lot. Their owners have come in and
16 cooperated, basically, and have done the
17 situation.
18 So I don't want you to feel that you
19 are providing information, at least the most
20 important part of which we don't already have.
21 I am interested in what job sites you
22 worked on for Tribilt?
23 A. Jesus, I couldn't remember.
24 Q. Were you a union carpenter? I pretty
25 much know you became initiated on December 2,
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2 1999, is when you were initiated into 157.
3 A. That could be right, yes.
4 Q. So I'm going to give you a copy of
5 DD-2, which is the computer record of your
6 membership and job-referral history -- and a copy
7 for John. I may ask you whether that's inaccurate
8 or accurate at some later time.
9 But would it be fair to say that you
10 started working for Tribilt before you became a
11 union member?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And how long did you work for Tribilt?
14 Why don't you give me an estimate of the months
15 that you worked for Tribilt. You started late
16 '98, early '99 --
17 A. It had to be '99, definitely wasn't
18 '98.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Probably six or eight months roughly.
21 Q. What type of work were you doing?
22 A. Just rock-and-frame --
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. -- general carpentry, ceilings.
25 Q. All right.
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2 And do you remember where your job
3 sites were? Whether they were in Westchester or
4 New York City?
5 A. I would say New York City.
6 Q. Do you know what borough they were in?
7 A. Just the city.
8 Q. Brooklyn?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Queens, Manhattan?
11 A. Manhattan.
12 Q. What type of building was it? Was it
13 an office building, a store front?
14 A. An office building.
15 Q. And do you remember the names of any of
16 the shop stewards or any people that you worked
17 with?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Were you ever visited by a business
20 agent on the job site in which you were working
21 for Tribilt?
22 A. Not that I can remember.
23 Q. Let me move on.
24 After Tribilt, what was your next
25 employer?
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2 A. Late that year I was out of work and I
3 went back just labor, no carpentry work, just
4 labor. Because it was very bad, them years. Then
5 I think I started with OnPar, when was it? 2000.
6 Q. Let me go back.
7 What were the circumstances under which
8 you became a member of 157?
9 A. I don't understand.
10 Q. In other words, I want to know what was
11 the process that resulted in your becoming a
12 member of 157? Did somebody sponsor you? How did
13 you become member of 157?
14 A. I just -- I can't really remember, I
15 think I just went in and joined up, you know.
16 Q. There is, at least supposed to be, some
17 method of routine about having employment
18 somewhere that justifies your becoming a member.
19 I realize it's five years ago, over
20 five years ago, but most people have some
21 recollection of the circumstances under which they
22 became a member of the District Council.
23 A. I can't really remember, to tell you
24 the truth.
25 Q. Do you remember, do you recall whether
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2 you paid any money in order to become a member?
3 A. No. The only money is you pay the
4 dues.
5 You mean extra money?
6 Q. That's what I mean?
7 A. No, definitely not.
8 Q. Did anybody sponsor your membership?
9 A. No, I paid the membership myself.
10 Q. Do you remember going to the local, the
11 hall of 157 to sign up?
12 A. Yeah, I think I do, yeah.
13 Q. Do you remember, because the first
14 time, if I am reading this correctly, that you are
15 on the out-of-work list is June of 2003. That's
16 the first time I see you actually listed on the
17 out-of-work list.
18 A. The first time I really ever get union
19 pay was 2002 -- 2003 actually.
20 Q. So that was going to be one of my
21 questions.
22 2002?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So let me keep going. We will get
25 there eventually.
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2 So you really don't remember the
3 circumstances or how you became a member of 157?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. You don't remember whether you were
6 sponsored by anybody and you don't remember the
7 circumstances of your gaining admission?
8 A. I think I just went in myself. I never
9 got sponsored. Even though I had the card I never
10 worked union, you know what I'm saying? The only
11 time I worked union was, the first time was
12 6/30/2002.
13 MR. TASOLIDES: Declan, by "sponsored"
14 I don't think they mean somebody paid the money
15 for you, but they mean somebody said, "Here's a
16 good fellow, you should bring him into the union."
17 Something like that, a reference.
18 THE WITNESS: I probably got a
19 reference but I don't know who it came from
20 specifically.
21 MR. MACK: Okay. I mean 157 may have
22 a file.
23 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Were you working
24 for a contractor at the time that you joined the
25 union?
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2 THE WITNESS: I think I was working
3 for Tribilt at the time.
4 MR. MACK: We will check it.
5 Q. As we get closer and closer to the
6 present, my questions become more and more
7 important.
8 When would you say is the first time
9 that you became employed for an OnPar company?
10 A. 2002.
11 Q. What did you do from December of '99
12 until 2002?
13 A. Worked for different companies.
14 Q. Were you working as a carpenter?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What were the names of those companies?
17 A. I can't really remember them all.
18 Q. I want you to think about it. I can
19 mention some is what it boils down to, but my
20 feeling is, did you ever work for Eclipse?
21 A. I worked for Eclipse in Manhattan.
22 Q. I am really looking for the period,
23 let's say, between 2000-2001. Let's take those
24 two years, those twenty-four months, 2000 through
25 2001.
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2 Can you remember the name of any
3 company that you worked for as a carpenter during
4 those twenty-four months?
5 A. Could have been with Tribilt maybe,
6 in-between that time as well. You know, like jump
7 ship, but I went with OnPar in 2002.
8 Q. Before I get to OnPar I want to know
9 who you worked for in that time period, 2000 and
10 2001?
11 A. I couldn't -- I was laboring, you know,
12 I wasn't always working as a union carpenter.
13 Q. I know, but sometimes there are
14 jurisdictional issues. If you are carrying
15 sheetrock or something to a floor, some people say
16 that's laboring, but if you ask a carpenter, he'll
17 say that's carpentry if you're carrying sheetrock.
18 A. No, I was working on Long Island,
19 laboring, plastering, stuff like that.
20 Q. So you confirm you were working on the
21 Island, is that what you're telling me?
22 A. Yes, I was.
23 Q. Meaning Long Island?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So you don't remember the name of the
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2 company you were working for?
3 A. It was a friend, but I don't really
4 want to give his name, you know.
5 Q. My feeling is that I will focus on
6 OnPar and city union carpenters, but you take a
7 risk that the likelihood is that I'm not going to
8 do anything with it, with respect to a Long Island
9 company. One, I don't have any jurisdiction over
10 them; and, two, my feeling is that it's really not
11 part and parcel of what I am interested in.
12 But I think it is important that you
13 recognize that you need to be as accurate and
14 complete in your accuracy as you can be. So if
15 you worked for a large company on the Island.
16 Well, maybe I will go at it that way.
17 Is this a large company? Or is it a
18 small --
19 A. No. It's only a guy doing stucco on
20 houses is all it is. No carpentry in it.
21 Q. Okay.
22 Did you do any carpentry work in the
23 city -- let me limit my question -- during the
24 years 2000 and 2001?
25 A. I probably did.
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2 Q. And the companies you did it for were
3 Tribilt -- any others?
4 Let me make it easier for you. If it's
5 a small company in which it's a friend in which
6 you are doing very small work, I am not interested
7 in pursuing those types of employments. If, on
8 the other hand, you are working for a company like
9 Tribilt, Pyramid, Turbo, K&F, Perimeter, Pittcon,
10 or any of those?
11 A. I never worked for them.
12 Q. All right.
13 The work that you did do for that
14 period, would it be fair to say that they were for
15 very small companies?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were they union companies?
18 A. No.
19 Q. I am going to make the election not to
20 pursue those, okay, because I don't think they are
21 things that I have jurisdiction over. I certainly
22 don't have any jurisdiction now, but are ones that
23 Judge Haight is going to be concerned about.
24 But I am interested, of course, when
25 you started working for union companies after
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2 2001.
3 When would be the first time that you
4 did that?
5 A. For OnPar.
6 Q. What were the circumstances of how you
7 came to work for OnPar?
8 A. Same thing. I just probably rang up
9 the office, they call you back, you get to start.
10 Q. This is something that I want to make
11 sure that we understand. In my profession,
12 basically, we want to be as precise as we can be.
13 And when we use the words "probable," "could be,"
14 or "possible" in a courtroom, the judge would
15 strike that answer. He would say anything is
16 possible.
17 What is your recollection of coming to
18 work for OnPar? The last time I had someone who
19 was asked in this way, his lawyer pointed out it's
20 a way of seeking, when they say "probable," they
21 mean that's my best recollection, that's what it
22 means.
23 I want to be clear with you here. I
24 don't want you guessing. I don't want you saying
25 "must have been, " or whatever. I want you to
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1 D. Daly
2 think back. It's not that long ago, it's 2002.
3 How did you come to work for OnPar?
4 Did you call the office and ask for work?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is that your best recollection?
7 A. That's my best recollection.
8 Q. Who did you talk to there, if you
9 remember? Was it a woman in the office? Was it a
10 project manager? Was it Mr. Murray?
11 A. It was one of the receptionists.
12 Q. Do you remember her first name?
13 A. Could have been Maureen.
14 Q. And what did -- do the best you can --
15 what was the substance of what you said to her,
16 and what did she say to you?
17 A. Probably just told her I was looking
18 for work, and she rang me back, and, you know, you
19 get to start that way.
20 Q. I've heard it from many individuals. I
21 don't want to challenge, I just want to make sure
22 I'm not missing anything.
23 Now did she ring you back and give you
24 an assignment?
25 A. Yes.
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2 Q. What was that first assignment?
3 A. First job I was on was 56th Street.
4 Actually, it was, yes, 56th Street on Broadway.
5 Q. What type of building was that?
6 A. It's a brand new high-rise.
7 Q. And that job, you started that job,
8 when would you estimate was the first month you
9 started on that job?
10 A. I would say, to the best of my
11 recollection, I would say January.
12 Q. January, 2002?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When you first arrived there, what was
15 the state of the project? What stage was it at?
16 A. Only starting.
17 Q. Was there a foundation?
18 A. Yes. All the concrete was nearly
19 poured. To the best of my recollection, I think
20 they were still doing some of the concrete.
21 Q. And when you first arrived there, who
22 did you report to when you went to that job site?
23 A. The shop steward and the foreman.
24 Q. And who was the shop steward?
25 A. Mike Mitchell.
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2 Q. And you had a union card at that time.
3 Did you show him your card?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And who was the foreman?
6 A. Noel Brady.
7 Q. I have seen Noel Brady, I am going to
8 see him again. He's got to decide what he is
9 going to do. My feeling is they have to make
10 decision. He is not going to get really a
11 different situation than you do, in terms of an
12 opportunity to be helpful.
13 So, in any event, what was your rate of
14 pay in January, 2002?
15 A. $28.00, I would guess, approximately.
16 Q. So $28.00, that's a pretty high amount
17 for a starting OnPar person.
18 Are you sure that's what you started
19 at?
20 A. I think it was actually $26.00.
21 Q. How was that money paid to you?
22 A. Checks.
23 Q. Was it checks right from the beginning?
24 A. Some cash. Maybe a couple of weeks
25 cash, and checks after that.
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1 D. Daly
2 Q. So it was just a couple of weeks cash?
3 A. I am guessing. I would say a couple of
4 months.
5 Q. Okay.
6 Now what was your understanding of why
7 it went from cash to checks?
8 A. I would have no idea.
9 Q. Did anybody raise a question that there
10 was some risk involved in being paid by check?
11 A. No.
12 Q. So you can't help me at all as to why
13 he went from cash payment to check payment?
14 A. I have no idea. It's the same thing.
15 It's just in a check, you know.
16 Q. Right.
17 Now what type of work were you doing
18 when you first arrived there on 56th Street?
19 A. Framing.
20 Q. How long did you stay on that site?
21 A. I was on that job until March 2003.
22 Q. So you were on that site for fourteen
23 or fifteen months?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And did you work steady all that time?
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1 D. Daly
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And how many hours per week were you
4 putting in?
5 A. Forty.
6 Q. No overtime?
7 A. Very little, very little.
8 Q. Were there night crews coming in and
9 people working weekends?
10 A. No.
11 Maybe weekends, probably yes.
12 Q. Were you on any of the weekend work?
13 A. Yes, probably on the weekend. Some
14 Saturdays, not every Saturday.
15 Q. So when you are telling me forty hours,
16 are you --
17 A. Say forty-eight.
18 Q. Forty-eight. So that would be fair,
19 forty-eight hours?
20 A. Forty-eight hours.
21 Q. So you were working eight-hour days?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you were starting when, at 7:00?
24 Quitting when, 4:00?
25 A. 3:30.
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1 D. Daly
2 Q. 3:30.
3 And your Saturday days?
4 A. 7:00 to 3:30.
5 Q. Did Mike Mitchell -- I think you told
6 me that there was a time period that you were paid
7 the right wage on that job.
8 Am I misunderstanding what you told me?
9 A. One day.
10 Q. Let me make a copy of that, if I may.
11 June 30, 2002, is that what you are
12 telling me?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You got eight hours. And we are going
15 to mark this DD-7, and I will give you the
16 original back.
17 You got one day? You worked fifteen
18 months and you got one day of a proper wage? What
19 happened on this one day?
20 A. That was a Saturday --
21 Q. Oh, that was the day there was a raid,
22 or something like that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is that what happened?
25 A. Yes.
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2 MR. MACK: Were you on that raid?
3 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: No.
4 Q. So what happened on June 30, 2002? You
5 were working. That's a Saturday, you were
6 working.
7 A. Two agents came in and caught us,
8 carded us. A government guy.
9 Q. And for that day, and that day alone,
10 Mike Mitchell put you on the shop steward's
11 report?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you ever have a discussion with
14 Mike Mitchell as to why you were not on his shop
15 steward's report?
16 A. I didn't. I didn't ask him clearly
17 because I didn't have my tax ID number or anything
18 like that there. I could never claim it back, so
19 it suited me to work for cash.
20 Q. But, as you know, his obligation in one
21 way or the other --
22 A. -- is to report to the union.
23 Q. That's correct.
24 How many times did he card you?
25 A. Every quarter, to make sure the card is
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2 paid up.
3 Q. Would he card you every quarter to make
4 sure your dues were paid?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you ever have a discussion why he
7 is carding you and yet he never put you on the
8 shop steward report?
9 A. I didn't want to be on it.
10 Q. Well, did you ever have a discussion
11 with him in which he said do you want to be on it
12 or not be on it?
13 A. No, not to my recollection.
14 Q. Do you understand what I am asking,
15 that you may have said, as some carpenters do,
16 "Put me on," or "Don't put me"?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you ever have that conversation
19 with him?
20 A. Never.
21 Q. So as far as you know, he never knew
22 whether you wanted to be on or off; correct?
23 A. That would be correct.
24 Q. In terms of getting your pay, did it
25 stay at $26 for the entire time period?
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1 D. Daly
2 A. It went up to 28. Maybe I would say
3 June, July approximately.
4 Q. How was that given to you? How did you
5 receive either cash for a couple months and then
6 the checks?
7 A. All checks.
8 Q. Who gave them to you? How were they
9 received?
10 A. They were sent to the job and you got
11 them.
12 Q. Tell me, as far as you know, who sent
13 them?
14 A. The office.
15 Q. The OnPar office?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was there any particular person who
18 brought the checks to the job site?
19 A. I wouldn't see that because it's a
20 high-rise, so whoever brings them in, the foreman
21 would hand them out.
22 Q. So would it be fair to say that
23 basically the foreman paid you your check every
24 Thursday or Friday?
25 A. Every Thursday.
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2 Q. Would he go to your job location or
3 give you where you were working or was it given
4 out at the shanty?
5 A. No. He would walk around the job and
6 hand them out to every man. That's the way it
7 was.
8 Q. Now, did the envelope ever include
9 anything besides the checks? When he was paying
10 by check, did it ever have some portion of it in
11 cash?
12 A. No, all checks. When it went to
13 checks, it was all checks.
14 Q. And did you work at any other jobs
15 during that period, let's say from January 2002
16 through March 2003?
17 A. I would say no. I would say I was
18 there the whole time.
19 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Walter, you should
20 say for the record that DD-4 is representative of
21 the checks he received while he was on that job
22 site.
23 Q. Is that true?
24 A. That would be right, yes.
25 Q. So we should basically have a check for
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1 D. Daly
2 you for every week probably starting March of
3 2002, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you cash your check -- where did
6 you cash your check?
7 A. In the bars.
8 Q. Let me ask this: Did you ever have
9 any problem or complaints with the number of hours
10 that you were being paid for?
11 A. Never.
12 Q. How were your hours kept? Who kept
13 your hours?
14 A. I clocked in every day.
15 Q. Tell me the details of that.
16 A. The foreman would probably ring up the
17 office say every man 3:30. Usually on the jobs
18 there it's a set time, 7:00 to 3:30. That's it.
19 You wouldn't have to clock in and out.
20 Q. But was there any sign-in sheet at the
21 shanty when you went in or was this foreman
22 eyeballing you and calling you in?
23 A. The foreman would see you on the job
24 and he would call you in.
25 Q. Did shop steward, Mike Mitchell, did he
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1 D. Daly
2 have any role with respect to you at all?
3 Did you have any interaction with him
4 at all other than when he checked your card for
5 dues?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did he ever give you any direction or
8 ever take any action that you were directly
9 involved in?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you ever have discussion with Mike
12 Mitchell about this job site at any time, either
13 on the job site or up to today?
14 A. About working for cash?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Has Mike Mitchell made any effort to
18 talk to you or to find out what you are going to
19 do?
20 A. About this?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. No.
23 Q. One thing I should tell you, and I am
24 sure if Mr. Tasolides hasn't told you, he should,
25 that if anybody tries to influence you in any way
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2 for you to say something that isn't true, that's a
3 federal crime as well.
4 And, basically, obviously, your job is
5 to tell the truth, period. And if anybody tries
6 to influence you to tell something more or other
7 than the truth, you should tell Mr. Tasolides
8 about that.
9 Have you had discussion with Mr. Murray
10 about being here today?
11 A. No, absolutely not.
12 Q. Now, did you have a discussion with
13 anyone concerning trying to get a raise? Let's
14 say move from 26 to 28, if that's what the numbers
15 were. Did you have discussion saying it's about
16 time for a raise or some way to increase your pay?
17 A. Yes, you would go through office. Ring
18 them up and tell them, "I want a pay raise."
19 Q. Who would you talk to there?
20 A. Maureen.
21 Q. So Maureen would have role in deciding
22 or was she just the person communicating your
23 request?
24 A. She was the communicator.
25 Q. Did you ever talk to Jim Murray at all?
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2 A. No.
3 Q. Never talked to him at all?
4 A. Talked on the job?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Yes, I talked to him.
7 Q. Did you ever talk to him about pay or
8 working conditions?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you ever have, while you were on
11 this job on West 56th Street, did you see any
12 payments that you thought were inappropriate or
13 anything that you thought was improper or any
14 wrongdoing or criminal conduct that seemed to you
15 to be wrong?
16 A. No.
17 Are you talking backhanders?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did any business agents, other than the
21 one day, I think it's June 30, 2002, did a
22 business agent ever come to that job site at any
23 time?
24 A. I never seen them. They never carded
25 me, I should say.
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2 Q. So other than that one day, June 30,
3 2002, which was a Saturday, you never saw a
4 business agents on that job site?
5 A. No.
6 BY MR. SOBOCIENSKI:
7 Q. Were you ever told to take a walk or to
8 hide when a business agent was coming?
9 A. No. We were on the 24th floor, 24 up,
10 so they don't really want to come up there, you
11 know.
12 Q. Too far to walk?
13 A. Yeah. That's probably why you wouldn't
14 see them.
15 MR. CALLAHAN: You are talking about
16 the business agents?
17 MR. MACK: Yes.
18 BY MR. MACK:
19 Q. So the only time you saw a business
20 agent on that job site at West 56th Street was on
21 June 30, 2002 when you were carded?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that was the only day that you were
24 paid benefit and wage under the collective
25 bargaining agreement?
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2 A. Yes.
3 BY MR. SOBOCIENSKI:
4 Q. On that particular day, were you
5 getting a delivery?
6 A. No. We were on the tools.
7 BY MR. MACK:
8 Q. And do you know who the business agents
9 were that day?
10 A. I wouldn't have it clear.
11 I am very bad with names and that's not
12 just an excuse. I just can't remember.
13 Q. Do you know whether they were 157 or
14 608?
15 A. I don't know.
16 MR. MACK: What I would like to do is
17 I have to make a phone call, so let's take about a
18 three-minute break and then we will pick up with
19 your next job right after that.
20 (Recess taken.)
21 MR. MACK: Let's go back on the record
22 and I will try to get it done efficiently.
23 MR. CALLAHAN: I have a few
24 intermittent questions.
25 MR. MACK: Fire away.
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2 BY MR. CALLAHAN:
3 Q. You mentioned this other Declan. I am
4 looking at the checks. They are both issued for
5 the same period of time, November '02, September
6 '02.
7 Do you know who this other Declan is?
8 A. Yes, he is Declan Daly.
9 Q. And you are Declan Daly?
10 A. Yes, and he is P. Daly.
11 Q. Identical names?
12 A. Identical.
13 Q. And you don't know him?
14 A. I know him from -- I never knew him
15 until OnPar. I met him on an OnPar job.
16 BY MR. MACK:
17 Q. Was it West 56th Street?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So he worked on that job as well?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was he on the sheets?
22 A. I don't think so.
23 BY MR. CALLAHAN:
24 Q. Who was Patrick Brosman who endorsed
25 some of your checks?
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2 A. I don't know that.
3 Q. Did you give checks to a Patrick
4 Brosman?
5 A. No. That is why I picked them three
6 out.
7 Q. Is DD-4 your checks?
8 MR. MACK: Most of those checks are
9 his checks.
10 MR. TASOLIDES: I think he said other
11 than the three.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 BY MR. CALLAHAN:
14 Q. You have a funny line on your
15 signature.
16 A. I said 2497; correct?
17 MR. MACK: I have to go back, but the
18 record will have precisely what you identified.
19 Q. Patrick Brosman endorsed that check.
20 You must have had him -- did you owe him money or
21 something?
22 A. No.
23 MR. TASOLIDES: Those are the three
24 checks he said he wasn't sure of.
25 Q. Give me one number you are sure of in
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2 DD-4?
3 A. 0212 -- no, no.
4 Definitely 0467 is mine.
5 Q. 0467 you are sure of?
6 A. Yes. Pretty much, yes.
7 Q. I have to question the signature if you
8 look at the ones that you say are not your checks
9 and look at ones that you say is your check?
10 A. It's very close, isn't it?
11 Q. Awfully close, which indicates was Daly
12 trying to counterfeit your name or mimic your
13 signature?
14 A. I definitely don't know Patrick
15 Brosman.
16 Q. There is something wrong there. There
17 is no way in the world. That's more than a
18 coincidence.
19 I am just curious if someone else was
20 masquerading as you or did anybody ever ask you
21 for your carpenter card?
22 A. No, I always had my own.
23 Q. Have you heard about cards being
24 transferred to other people?
25 A. I am sure it happened.
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2 Q. You are sure it has happened or you
3 know it has happened?
4 A. I know it has happened.
5 Q. Do you know any guys who went back to
6 Ireland and left their card here with somebody
7 else?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And your brother works for 608?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. And you don't know Mr. Murray at all, I
12 take it from your earlier testimony, you don't
13 know him personally?
14 A. Not personally. I know him from coming
15 to the job. I know him to say hello to.
16 Q. Did somebody in Ireland tell you, your
17 brother or anybody else, that when you came here
18 go to the hiring hall and become a carpenter?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Why did you come to the United States?
21 A. I only originally came to the United
22 States for three months, and then I just said I
23 would stay on.
24 Q. You stayed over on your visa?
25 A. Yes, I did.
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2 Q. Your brother, did he tell you to come
3 over?
4 A. No, I came over on me own free will.
5 Myself, me girlfriend and sister.
6 Q. When you were getting cash, did you get
7 the cash on the job site or did you go to some
8 bars?
9 A. No, you would get the cash on the job
10 site.
11 Q. Was there any pressure to go to certain
12 bars to get cash?
13 A. Never.
14 Q. What bars do you hang out in?
15 A. Just local ones.
16 Q. Sunnyside?
17 A. Sunnyside, Woodside.
18 Q. Not in the Bronx?
19 A. No.
20 MR. CALLAHAN: No other questions.
21 BY MR. MACK:
22 Q. Let's go back and finish off West 56th
23 Street.
24 Can you make an estimate of how many
25 carpenters on that site working for OnPar were not
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2 on the sheets?
3 A. If I had to make a rough guess --
4 Q. Rough guess.
5 A. -- I would say 15, 20.
6 Q. And can you name several of them that
7 you think were not there, who were not on the
8 sheets?
9 A. I don't really want to, because I drink
10 with these guys and work with them and socialize
11 with them.
12 Q. Let me ask the question a different
13 way.
14 On June 30, 2002 when the business
15 agents came to the job site, and it was the only
16 day that you were paid the right wage, how many
17 other people would you estimate were in the same
18 situation who got paid for only that day?
19 A. I would say 15. I can't give you exact
20 numbers.
21 Q. I understand that.
22 A. I would say roughly 15.
23 Q. Would you say there were approximately
24 15 people on Mike Mitchell's shop steward report
25 for June 30, 2002, including you, who actually
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2 were working on that job site fairly routinely?
3 A. See, I don't know what anybody else is
4 getting, only meself (sic), so I can't speak for
5 anyone else.
6 Q. I am not asking what they got paid. I
7 can ask them that.
8 A. I can't say who was on and who was not
9 on. All I know is meself, I wasn't on and I
10 didn't want to be on. It suited me to work for
11 cash, cash checks.
12 Q. Were there other people, I mean, you
13 have friends and what have you who were in the
14 same situation as you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who did not want to be on?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And but you don't want to name who
19 those people are?
20 A. You will get them.
21 Q. Yes, we will get them.
22 A. But I don't want to give any man's
23 name.
24 Q. Who was the project manager for West
25 56th Street?
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2 A. I think it was Sean Convy.
3 Q. Noel Brady was the foreman?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Sean Convy was the project manager?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How often was the project manager on
8 the job site?
9 A. I couldn't tell you, because it was
10 that big. You wouldn't see guys in the building.
11 Them buildings are that big that you wouldn't see
12 guys, so I couldn't tell you because he wouldn't
13 see me anyway.
14 Q. All I am asking you is for in terms of
15 your knowing that Sean Convy, for instance, was
16 there, would you see him once a week?
17 You see Noel basically every day, he
18 was the foreman, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You would see Mike Mitchell virtually
21 every day.
22 Let me ask this question: Was Mike
23 Mitchell there a full day?
24 A. I don't think so.
25 Q. Why do you say that?
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2 A. You would never see them all day. I
3 wouldn't even see Noel all day. The way high-rise
4 works is you three would probably be laying out.
5 Guys would come behind you framing. You just do
6 your own work and you don't actually see the
7 foreman all the whole time. You might not see him
8 all day, so I can't tell you if he was there all
9 day or if he wasn't.
10 Q. I have great respect for carpenter's
11 ability to know what's going on on their job site,
12 because they talk to each other and get an
13 impression of whether they have a good foreman
14 and, more importantly, a good shop steward or not,
15 and someone who is there.
16 Was there an opinion as to whether Mike
17 Mitchell was there a full day or not?
18 A. I would say he wasn't there a full day.
19 Q. What is the basis for that view?
20 A. You mean how often?
21 Q. Why do you have that opinion?
22 A. Because I would never see him maybe a
23 full day. I wouldn't see him anyway. You would
24 see him maybe in the morning, but you weren't
25 guaranteed to see him in the evening, because not
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2 everybody would -- you go down a different hoist,
3 you know what I mean. You never see every man.
4 The guys, we leave at different times.
5 There gang boxes on different floors.
6 Maybe every three floors was a gang box, so you
7 may see certain guys all the time. You might not
8 see guys for a couple of weeks.
9 Do you know what I am saying?
10 Q. Now, you told me that Mike Mitchell
11 would card you and make sure your does were paid?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did he come around on a normal work day
14 or on a work day and see what you were doing?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So would he see you every day?
17 A. He wouldn't see you every day. Maybe
18 once or twice a week maybe.
19 Q. When he came around to your position,
20 what would he do? Would he write anything down?
21 Would he talk to? Would he comment about your
22 work?
23 A. He would talk to me, say hello what's
24 going on.
25 Q. Would he have any conversation about
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2 your work or what's going on on the job or
3 anything of that nature?
4 A. Probably just tell you the job is good,
5 you are doing a good job.
6 As far as anything else, no.
7 Q. There is no question, though, that you
8 would see him once or twice a week at least while
9 you were working there?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And there is no question that he would
12 card you, certainly, to make sure that your dues
13 were paid up?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you remember anything that Mike
16 Mitchell did, as shop steward, that served the
17 interests of the union carpenters on the site?
18 Do you understand that question?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you have any or can you point out to
21 me any function that Mike Mitchell had, other than
22 checking your card to see that your dues were
23 paid, that he performed on that job site at West
24 56th Street?
25 A. No.
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2 Q. After that job, after I think it's
3 March 2003, I think you told me around there?
4 A. Yes, 2004.
5 Q. I think we went from --
6 A. 2003, yes.
7 Q. What were the circumstances of your
8 departure from the West 56th Street site? Were
9 you laid off?
10 A. No, I went down to 7 Times Square.
11 Q. Were you just assigned to go there?
12 A. Yes.
13 But I was gone for a couple of weeks in
14 that period. I left December 26th of '02 and I
15 come back on the 6th of January '03.
16 Q. So was that just for a holiday visit?
17 A. My mother died.
18 Q. I'm sorry to hear that.
19 So you went back to Ireland?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. And that was really only that period of
22 time you were gone.
23 You came back to the site at West 56th?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When were you assigned to 7 Times
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2 Square?
3 A. 3/17/2003. March 17th. It was the day
4 before Patty's Day -- I think it was the day
5 before Patty's day.
6 Q. You will forgive me if I don't remember
7 the exact date of Patty's day in 2003, but I can
8 find that out?
9 A. The 18th.
10 Q. Who assigned you to 7 Times Square on
11 March 17th?
12 A. You would get a call from the office
13 telling you to go to another job.
14 Q. You get a call from was it Maureen in
15 March of 2003?
16 A. No, I think Maureen was gone.
17 Q. Who was the woman there?
18 A. I don't know who was in charge at that
19 time. Personally I have no dealing with the
20 office. When you are on the job, you have no
21 reason to be calling them.
22 Q. I just want you to explain to me what
23 were the actual details of your moving from West
24 56th Street to 7 Times Square.
25 A. The foreman told me on West 56th Street
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2 to go to 7 Times Square.
3 Q. Was that Noel Brady?
4 A. No. That was Dave Curry.
5 Q. Were there just two foremen at West
6 56th Street?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So it was Dave Currin?
9 A. I think it's Curry.
10 Q. On West 56th Street?
11 BY MR. SOBOCIENSKI:
12 Q. The other address would be 1745
13 Broadway?
14 A. It was Random House.
15 Q. And what was the date of the one date
16 you were paid properly?
17 A. 6/30/2002.
18 Q. That's listed on the shop steward as a
19 Sunday.
20 A. It's a Saturday.
21 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: I don't know.
22 MR. MACK: So the signature of the shop
23 steward --
24 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: That's Mitchell.
25 MR. MACK: Okay, it's hard to read.
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2 BY MR. MACK:
3 Q. In any event, I want to keep going
4 here.
5 The foreman when you were assigned to 7
6 Times Square was, you believe to be Dave Currin;
7 is t correct?
8 A. I think it's Curry.
9 Q. Curry, okay.
10 Did the office have any role in your
11 going to 7 Times Square?
12 A. I wouldn't think so. They just tell
13 you to go down there because the job was nearly
14 finished at that time.
15 Q. At west 56th Street?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What was happening?
18 A. Probably just doing punch list.
19 Q. So you went 7 Times Square, and whom
20 did you report to when you got there?
21 A. Tom McCarthy was the foreman.
22 Q. And was there a shop steward?
23 A. Yes, there was.
24 Q. Who was that?
25 A. Michael Brennan.
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2 Q. Did you see Michael Brennan when you
3 first got there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did he card you?
6 A. Yes, he did.
7 Q. And he put you on the shop steward
8 report?
9 A. Yes, he did.
10 Q. And how long were you on the shop
11 steward report at 7 Times Square?
12 A. Until I left that job.
13 Q. So you were paid appropriate wage and
14 benefits for that entire sometime?
15 A. Yes, I was.
16 Q. What was that period?
17 A. I left in August '04, the 7th of August
18 2004.
19 MR. TASOLIDES: Just so the record is
20 clear, you don't have any independent recollection
21 of those dates. You are taking them from a
22 printout you have from the union?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 Q. And that printout is based upon when
25 you were paid benefits?
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2 A. Yes.
3 Q. My question is: You were at 7 Times
4 Square for approximately how long?
5 A. A year and four months is it, five
6 months.
7 Q. And you were on the shop steward report
8 for that entire time period?
9 A. Yes, I was.
10 Q. What was the reason, if you know, why
11 you were on the shop steward report for that
12 entire time?
13 A. When I went onto that job I was on the
14 sheets straight away. There were no questions
15 asked, nothing. Then I went and got my tax ID
16 number because it's the right thing to do. And
17 that's the way I went. I just went all union
18 because I have two kids here now, I need the
19 coverage for them.
20 Q. Yes, you do.
21 Did you however -- because there were
22 people at 7 Times Square who were not on the
23 sheets, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And I would like to get your estimate
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2 of approximately how many were there?
3 A. Again, I wouldn't know who was on and
4 who was off. You could take a rough guess and say
5 maybe 10 or 15.
6 Q. What I am trying to find out is what
7 happened between the West 56th Street job and 7
8 Times Square?
9 And I am glad it happened, don't get me
10 wrong. Every carpenter should be getting the
11 right wage and benefit, but what happened when you
12 moved to 7 Times Square that resulted in your
13 being paid the way you should have been paid?
14 A. Probably the shop steward.
15 Q. Well, the shop steward, at least in our
16 information, there were people he wasn't p