UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
90 CIV 5722
-against- (CSH)
DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED
BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND
JOINERS OF AMERICA, et.al.,
Defendants.
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Independent Investigator Deposition
September 29, 2005
4:55 p.m.
DEPOSITION OF RONAN DOHERTY, taken by
Walter Mack, Esq., pursuant to Notice, at the
offices of Doar Rieck & Mack, Esqs., 217 Broadway,
7th Floor, New York, New York 10007-2911, before
Stewart Nissenbaum, a Shorthand Reporter and
Notary Public of the State of New York.
TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
305 Madison Avenue 142 Willis Avenue
Suite 449 P.O.BOX 347
New York, N.Y. 10165 Mineola, N.Y. 11501
(212)349-9692 (516)741-5235
2
1
A P P E A R A N C E S :
2
3
DOAR RIECK & MACK
4 217 Broadway - 7th Floor
New York, New York 10007-2911
5
BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.
6
7
WILLIAM P. CALLAHAN, ESQ.
8 Independent Investigator
17 Battery Place, Suite 1226
9 New York, New York 10004
10
11
ALSO PRESENT:
12
Donald Sobocienski
13
14
* * *
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
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25
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2 MR. MACK: On the record.
3 Mr. Doherty, I'm going to be
4 saying again pretty much what I said to
5 you a half-hour or so ago, and let me
6 tell you why I do that. Basically, as I
7 mentioned to you, my name is Walter
8 Mack, and I was the Independent
9 Investigator for the District Council of
10 Carpenters up until just about the end
11 of August. And at that time, under the
12 Order of Judge Haight, Mr. William
13 Callahan has been appointed to succeed
14 me, and he is currently the Independent
15 Investigator. But Judge Haight has
16 requested, and Mr. Callahan has also
17 permitted me, to continue, for whatever
18 time remains to me, which is about a
19 month, a little bit less than a month,
20 to work on the investigations that were
21 begun when I was the Independent
22 Investigator.
23 As I told you, we received many
24 calls about On Par Construction, and as
25 a result of that, Mr. Sobocienski, the
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2 handsome gentleman sitting over there,
3 basically, and I, spent some time trying
4 to gather information and talking to
5 people. And most recently, with the
6 discovery of a number of On Par checking
7 accounts which were not appropriate
8 payroll accounts, we have been bringing
9 in individuals named in those checks to
10 find out where they worked, and how
11 often they worked, and who were the
12 people responsible for them. That's a
13 summary of the situation.
14 As I told you, I am not a
15 prosecutor, nor is Mr. Callahan. We are
16 investigators. Our job is to gather
17 facts, write report, and make
18 recommendations. That's what the
19 situation is.
20 Now, as I told you, On Par
21 Construction is the subject of an
22 investigation, and there's a criminal
23 investigation underway right now
24 concerning On Par. What I also told
25 you, and the reason I'm saying it again
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2 is, the judge or his clerks will be
3 reading this transcript, and it is very
4 important to the Court that you, as a
5 witness, are treated fairly and
6 appropriately, and that you understand
7 the situation. And also my job is to
8 answer any questions you may have before
9 we begin today.
10 What I told you was, that you
11 basically had three choices this
12 afternoon. The first choice was that
13 if you want time to think about the
14 situation -- I showed you the checks or
15 some checks from On Par and some checks
16 from Pitcon, and basically said if you
17 wanted to take up to a week to see if
18 you wanted counsel or you wanted to talk
19 to someone, you could leave and come
20 back, and that was one of your choices,
21 and decide what you want to do.
22 I also told you that if you
23 wanted, you could take the Fifth
24 Amendment, and the Fifth Amendment means
25 that you wouldn't have to answer my
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2 questions, but the result of that would
3 be that I would notify the District
4 Council immediately that you were here,
5 and that you had not provided
6 information. I would notify the
7 prosecutor that when I gave you the
8 choice to help us out or not help us
9 out, you decided not to help us out; and
10 basically, I would conclude that these
11 checks and the records I do have,
12 although incomplete, we've only received
13 about half of the checks from On Par for
14 a limited period of time, are checks
15 from before 2000, which we haven't
16 gotten yet.
17 Did we subpoena those checks?
18 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: We've
19 identified the account.
20 MR. MACK: I told you that my
21 estimate is, there are around 20,000
22 checks from On Par and somewhere north
23 of $15 million in benefits that hadn't
24 been paid, based upon our calculations,
25 and we are still receiving checks. It
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2 is a very significant amount and there
3 are serious consequences, I think, in
4 the offing for On Par. But more
5 significantly, the shop stewards and the
6 foremen and assistant foremen and
7 project managers are those at On Par who
8 are responsible for this situation.
9 Again, that's going to be up to the
10 judge, it is going to be up to the
11 individual prosecutors.
12 Your choices, as I say, getting
13 back to them, your first choice, which
14 it is my understanding what we are going
15 to do today, is that you are going to
16 assist and help us with information
17 concerning the jobs you were on, and
18 were knowledgeable about your situation
19 there.
20 What I've told you is that at
21 least for purposes of this inquiry, I'm
22 going to limit my questions to
23 particular sites, to who the shop
24 stewards and the foremen were, and what
25 their knowledge was and how things
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2 worked on those sites. I'm going to ask
3 you for an estimate of how many people
4 were off the sheets, such as yourself
5 when you were off, and questions of that
6 nature. But I'm not going to be asking
7 any questions, at least at this stage,
8 of the particular other journeymen
9 carpenters who were off the sheets as
10 well.
11 I've also told you that if you
12 fully cooperate with the Independent
13 Investigator and me, it will be my
14 recommendation that because of that
15 cooperation, you not be prosecuted
16 criminally. And it will be my
17 recommendation, although I don't know
18 what Mr. Callahan's recommendation will
19 be, that if you do fully cooperate with
20 me and with him, that you, if you
21 continue in that cooperation, that you
22 not lose your union membership to the
23 District Council.
24 The District Council doesn't
25 listen to me very much, if they ever
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2 did, they certainly don't now, but my
3 feeling is, if you demonstrate today
4 your willingness to help us do our job,
5 I think that's something that should be
6 counted very much in your favor, because
7 it will make it much easier for them to
8 hold those people accountable at a much
9 higher level. I can't speak for the
10 District Council.
11 When I talked to you about your
12 having a lawyer, I said it didn't make
13 any difference to me if you had a lawyer
14 or not. Sometimes I prefer a lawyer, it
15 makes it easier for me, but what your
16 lawyer would say is the same thing I'm
17 saying to you. That is, in a few
18 moments you'll be placed under oath, and
19 really, the most serious consequences,
20 at least from me, would be if you lied
21 to me as an agent of the Court, and to
22 Mr. Callahan; we both work for the
23 Court. You would be lying under oath,
24 which is a federal crime. Anyone, at
25 least in my opinion, whom I believe has
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2 lied to me, I have always recommended
3 they be prosecuted for perjury.
4 If you don't tell us the
5 information which is important to us,
6 and give us like 50 percent of the
7 truth, or something, or try to protect
8 someone other than your fellow
9 journeymen, which I've already
10 acknowledged I'm not going to ask you to
11 name, that is an obstruction of justice;
12 that is also a federal crime. I would
13 recommend, were I to find out that you
14 did that, I would recommend that you be
15 prosecuted for that.
16 I'm saying, look, we need your
17 help, we need to understand who was
18 accountable, how things worked. And if
19 you want the benefit of our
20 recommendation, or at least my
21 recommendation on this subject, you're
22 going to have to honor your oath and
23 tell me the truth.
24 One of the things that I've told
25 everybody is that since we don't have
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2 all the checks, that there will be jobs
3 that we don't have the checks for. But
4 even if we don't have the checks now,
5 we'll eventually have the checks,
6 because the banks are producing them for
7 us by the thousand. So if it turned out
8 you were to say that for the period that
9 we don't have the checks for, you
10 weren't working at all, and then a lot
11 of checks come in with your name on it,
12 you would be in hot water with me. Even
13 though I don't have the checks yet,
14 unfortunately, you need to take me
15 through your jobs and tell me what's
16 there.
17 I've explained that I'm pretty
18 familiar with the pressures of the
19 marketplace, so I am not sitting here in
20 judgment and saying, how can any human
21 being do this. I'm trying to gather
22 facts and hold the people who I think
23 are responsible, accountable for this
24 type of situation, which, in the long
25 term, hurts every union carpenter. When
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2 they retire or when it gets cold and
3 it's hard to move on a jobsite, the
4 Benefit Fund is not going to be as
5 bountiful as it should be if On Par or
6 Pitcon were paying their benefits.
7 I heard last night, after
8 deposing a shop steward who admitted
9 that he permitted On Par people to work
10 off the sheets, I'm not going to tell
11 you who and what job, I got a call from
12 an individual who is a carpenter who I
13 talk to from time to time, and he said
14 that they had just learned that the
15 Medical Funds were hurting for money in
16 order to be able to pay and cover all
17 the medical expenses for the Medical
18 Fund.
19 Basically, there's a direct
20 relationship between contractors paying
21 their Benefit Fund obligations, and
22 carpenters having the money to get
23 reimbursed. So that's why I think it is
24 important in the investigation; that's
25 why I want to see it get done.
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2 I told you everything that I did
3 before. If I left something out, or you
4 have a question that you want to ask me,
5 now is a good time.
6 What concerns would you like to
7 talk to me about before we get started?
8 MR. DOHERTY: Nothing.
9 MR. MACK: Okay. I mentioned to
10 you, Mr. Sobocienski, who, as I say, is
11 the brains of the old II outfit, he may
12 ask questions from time to time.
13 Mr. Callahan is a quick study,
14 and is immersed in the investigation.
15 He is the II, and has authority, and I
16 invite his questions from time to time.
17 I will be doing most of the
18 questioning pretty much in a
19 chronological way, going through from
20 probably four to five years ago, up to
21 the present. And if you don't
22 understand my question or I am in some
23 way unclear about what I'm asking you,
24 this is a relatively informal proceeding
25 designed to find out what the facts are
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2 and to get your knowledge and
3 experience, so if my question is
4 unclear, tell me it is unclear: What do
5 you mean? Or be direct, directness is
6 rewarded here, and accuracy. So do
7 that.
8 We will be taking breaks from
9 time to time to give the hardest-working
10 person in the room, Mr. Nissenbaum,
11 sitting to my right and your left, a
12 break. But other than that, we'll go,
13 try to be efficient, get you out of here
14 so you can be on your way.
15 I have not invited the District
16 Council here. I have found in the
17 course of this investigation, that for
18 the most part, we are more likely to
19 obtain information in the absence of the
20 District Council. I will not be telling
21 the District Council, nor do I believe
22 that Mr. Callahan will tell the District
23 Council, of your presence and your
24 information, by name, until our report
25 is done.
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2 We have met with carpenters,
3 numerous, I don't know what the number
4 is now, but it is certainly fifteen On
5 Par people, a couple of stewards; there
6 are a lot more to do. My feeling is
7 that it certainly would be my intention,
8 and I think Mr. Callahan's intention, to
9 run like crazy, obtain the facts, and go
10 on to the next contractor.
11 So you're free to tell whomever
12 you wish to tell about your presence
13 here, but we are not going to be telling
14 people about your presence here, and you
15 don't have to tell anybody about your
16 presence here. That's your decision.
17 I will tell you this: You
18 mentioned at one time, concern that you
19 might have a problem with colleagues or
20 people if they found out that you were
21 here, or something of that nature. I
22 will tell you, since you are appearing
23 here under the stewardship of the
24 Federal District Court, if anyone should
25 act in a way to intimidate you or force
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2 you either to say something or to do
3 anything, or to try to in any way
4 harass, annoy, intimidate, that's a
5 federal crime; and you can call me
6 anytime, I'm available pretty much 24
7 hours a day, if you just call this
8 office, I'll give you my card, or Mr.
9 Callahan, and we will arrange -- because
10 that's a crime we take very seriously.
11 Our purpose is to gather facts, and
12 allow witnesses to tell the truth,
13 unintimidated, unmolested by anyone.
14 I've conducted a number of
15 investigations dealing with Boom
16 Construction and Tri-Built Construction,
17 and although there was a time when we
18 didn't have all the facts together, that
19 the contractor was discouraging people
20 from telling the truth. As soon as I
21 found out about that, that stopped very,
22 very quickly, and didn't happen again.
23 So, I will tell you, that it is best to
24 keep this to yourself and go about your
25 business.
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2 I don't want you to think that in
3 any way I am authorizing you, or is Mr.
4 Callahan, to accept cash on jobs in the
5 future. One of the things that I spent
6 some time with the shop steward last
7 night was, if you're on a union job and
8 you're not getting full wage and
9 benefits, you should call the hotline
10 anonymously, you don't have to give your
11 name, and tell -- it is being run by Mr.
12 Callahan, tell the people that: I'm on
13 this job and the contractor is paying
14 cash for overtime, for night or regular
15 work, and give Mr. Callahan the
16 information so that he can stop it. But
17 I don't want you, going forward, being
18 in a situation where someone can say
19 that you're tolerating a violation of
20 the rules.
21 Are you working now?
22 MR. DOHERTY: No.
23 MR. MACK: When is the last time
24 you worked?
25 MR. DOHERTY: During the summer.
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2 MR. MACK: Is that right?
3 MR. DOHERTY: Yes.
4 MR. MACK: Were you on an On Par
5 job?
6 MR. DOHERTY: I haven't been on
7 On Par for almost two years.
8 MR. MACK: We'll talk about some
9 of these things, because Judge Haight is
10 a very fair individual, and he's going
11 to want to hear both sides of
12 everything. That's why I said to you
13 that one of the reasons you're here is
14 that I do get a chance to hear your side
15 about these things, and that's the
16 purpose of my questions.
17 Shall we get started?
18 MR. DOHERTY: No questions.
19 MR. MACK: Could the witness be
20 sworn, please.
21 R O N A N D O H E R T Y , the witness
22 herein, being first duly sworn by Stewart
23 Nissenbaum, a Notary Public of the State of
24 New York, was examined and testified as
25 follows:
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1 Doherty
2 EXAMINATION BY
3 MR. MACK:
4 Q Mr. Doherty, I did give you,
5 before we went on the record, a number of
6 exhibits, but I just want to go over a couple
7 of things beforehand, which is part of my
8 practice.
9 These orange stickers have no
10 significance of any kind, other than to help
11 me identify what I'm showing to you.
12 Let me show you what has been
13 marked as DOH No. 1, and ask you if that's a
14 copy of the original Notice that was sent out
15 concerning your testimony. I know it was
16 subsequently sent to your new address, but I
17 just want to make sure that's the right
18 person.
19 (Notice to Appear marked Exhibit
20 DOH-1.)
21 A Yes.
22 Q Any of these things you can keep
23 to take with you, or you can throw them out;
24 I don't care.
25 A I got them.
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1 Doherty
2 Q One of the things we asked you
3 for, do you have any records of your
4 employment with Pitcon?
5 A No.
6 Q Those you throw out, or what
7 happens?
8 A Never keep them.
9 Q Okay. The other thing I wanted
10 to show you, DOH-2, a record of the District
11 Council of your membership in the District
12 Council. That's DOH No. 2.
13 (Record from District Council
14 marked Exhibit DOH-2.)
15 Q So I would like you to look at
16 the cover there of DOH No. 2, the first page.
17 I just want to make sure that I have the
18 right information for you.
19 First of all, what is your
20 current address?
21 A My current address is -- I'm
22 between addresses -- Maspeth, 53-61 65th
23 Place.
24 Q In Maspeth?
25 A Yes.
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1 Doherty
2 Q What's the zip there?
3 A 11378.
4 Q Do you have a cell phone?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Can you give us that number?
7 A 347-489-4957.
8 Q What would you say if I or Mr.
9 Callahan wanted to reach you for any reason,
10 what would be the best way to do that?
11 A Probably phone me.
12 Q Phone you at the cell phone?
13 A Yes.
14 Q I don't intend to do that, but I
15 want to be able to reach you if necessary, if
16 there's a question; for instance, if I
17 received a check or something of that nature.
18 Now, my role of winding up and
19 transitioning is going to end in a month, so
20 I'm laboring hard to try to get all the
21 things that I have been working on in a
22 format so that Mr. Callahan can conclude
23 those or work on those.
24 If I have a question, you only
25 have to worry about my calling you for a
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1 Doherty
2 month, and I don't think I will. My
3 intention is to gather information today,
4 make sure I understand the situation, who is
5 responsible; and then you probably will not
6 hear from me, you may never hear from me
7 again.
8 MR. CALLAHAN: Is that your
9 permanent address?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 MR. CALLAHAN: You previously
12 lived at 60-46 Flushing Avenue?
13 THE WITNESS: A few years back.
14 MR. CALLAHAN: How long have you
15 been here?
16 THE WITNESS: This address, three
17 years.
18 MR. CALLAHAN: Three.
19 Q I want to go over some of the
20 other information here to make sure it's
21 correct. Your birth date is August 5, 1975?
22 A Yes.
23 Q You became a member of 608, at
24 least by this document, on April 26th, 2001?
25 A I don't know.
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1 Doherty
2 Q Okay. Now, I guess one of the
3 things -- Mr. Sobocienski went through a
4 number of your payroll records. It would
5 seem to me that you, -- although I don't have
6 your Benefit Fund record here, I don't have
7 that, there are not an awful lot of benefits
8 paid to your credit on the account.
9 Certainly with On Par, we went
10 through a lot of the On Par, not all, but a
11 lot of On Par payroll accounts, and we only
12 found you very, very seldom.
13 So, unless you were working for
14 some other contractor, which I don't think
15 you were at the time, that was paying
16 benefits, you should understand that your
17 benefit remittance report is going to be
18 pretty meager. I can't speak for the
19 District Council, but at least, if I were
20 your lawyer and Mr. Murray paid the benefits
21 for all carpenters who worked on all jobs,
22 some of those benefits should go to you for
23 credit. At least it is a possibility. It is
24 an argument that should be made by you or
25 somebody with your interest at mind some day,
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1 Doherty
2 not today. I raise that to you, because we
3 went through On Par's payroll records in
4 which it is their job to report proper
5 payroll and benefits paid, and there were
6 precious few situations where we found it.
7 MR. MACK: Would that be fair,
8 Mr. Sobocienski?
9 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Yes.
10 Q I don't think your record of
11 benefit remittances is going to be complete.
12 That's something you have to worry about
13 yourself.
14 We only have one dispatch for
15 you, and that is an On Par request, and
16 that's the last page of that document. Just
17 so you know, this is something that we've
18 worked with all the time, but you're very
19 seldom in the records of the District
20 Council. All right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, let me jump to one question
23 which is a question I always ask. Do you
24 remember the circumstances of your becoming a
25 member of 608?
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1 Doherty
2 A No.
3 Q Do you understand that question?
4 A No.
5 Q The question is, you know, and
6 I'm only guessing here, there might have been
7 a time that you were working and you were not
8 a union member, and then something happened.
9 Something happened and somebody says, I need
10 you to be a member, or they will help you be
11 a member; or something happens that results
12 in your becoming a member. One way to find
13 that out, we start from the beginning and go
14 to the end. We'll do that, too. But also
15 sometimes a person remembers how it came
16 about that they became a member of 608.
17 A I remember, the shop steward was
18 coming to the job often.
19 Q Is that right?
20 A Yes, so they had to give people
21 cards so they can cover themselves; and I was
22 one of them.
23 Q When you say the shop steward,
24 the shop steward is supposed to be on the job
25 every working day. Do you mean the business
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1 Doherty
2 agent?
3 A Sorry. The BA.
4 Q Do you remember that particular
5 jobsite? It looks like it had to be around
6 April 2001. Do you know where you were on
7 April 1?
8 A 34th and Eighth Avenue.
9 Q What was that job, do you
10 remember?
11 A A cinema at the bottom and
12 apartments on the top.
13 Q Was that an On Par job?
14 A Yes.
15 Q When did you start on that site?
16 A Years ago; four; maybe three.
17 Q Had you been on that site for
18 awhile before the BA came on the site?
19 A Yes.
20 Q So if you were to estimate for me
21 how long you were on that site before the BA
22 showed up, what would be your estimate?
23 A Say a month.
24 Q Month. Do you remember the name
25 of the shop steward who was on the site?
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1 Doherty
2 A His first name.
3 Q What's his first name?
4 A Mike.
5 Q Can you describe him for us?
6 A Irish American guy, heavy;
7 fifties.
8 Q Would you know his last name if
9 you heard it?
10 A Brown?
11 Q Could it be Brennan?
12 A Brennan.
13 Q Brennan?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Before you got your card, when
16 you were on that site, Mike Brennan, did he
17 know you were on the job?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Did he card you? Excuse me. Did
20 he know -- before you got your card, did he
21 know you were working there?
22 A Yes.
23 Q How do you know that?
24 A Because he seen me.
25 Q He did?
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1 Doherty
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did he ask you, say: What's the
4 story here with your card, why are you on my
5 job and you don't have a union card?
6 A I'm not sure. I can't remember
7 that.
8 Q But he knew you were there?
9 A Almost one hundred percent sure,
10 yes.
11 Q Did there come a time, then, when
12 somebody told you, hey, the BA is coming to
13 the job or the BA was on the job -- in other
14 words, I'm trying to find out what caused you
15 to become a 608 member on that occasion. Did
16 the BA catch you, or did you just --
17 A We were told to go to a certain
18 part of the job and stay there until someone
19 comes and gets us. The foreman came over and
20 said, you have been here for a half-hour.
21 Q Just speak slowly, because
22 Mr. Nissenbaum may not be able to pick up
23 your accent as well as I do, because I'm
24 hearing you pretty well. I'm going to go
25 slowly anyway, because this is important.
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1 Doherty
2 Maybe I'll try to put it in my words, and you
3 correct me if I'm wrong.
4 A Okay.
5 Q You were working at this time, at
6 34th and --
7 A Eighth. I think it was 34th or
8 33rd.
9 Q I think I know this job. We know
10 this job. And you're there about a month;
11 correct?
12 A Yes, I think so, yes.
13 Q You're pretty much a hundred
14 percent certain that Mike Brennan knew you
15 were there during that month?
16 A Yes.
17 Q He saw you frequently, saw you
18 occasionally? Tell me.
19 A It was a huge job. I'm pretty
20 sure he seen me.
21 Q Describe the job, what kind of
22 job?
23 A Cinemas at the bottom and
24 apartments at the top.
25 Q Now, you correct me, because I
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2 don't want to put words in your mouth; who
3 said on the job that the BA was going to
4 come, how did you find that out?
5 A Foreman.
6 Q Who was the foreman?
7 A Tom McCarthy.
8 Q What did Mr. McCarthy say?
9 A He said, go to a certain part of
10 the job, stay there for a little while.
11 Q What part of the job was it; a
12 place to hide out?
13 A No, a certain area where it was
14 quiet, no one there.
15 Q What was the purpose of that?
16 A Because the BA was coming on the
17 job.
18 Q Did a BA come to the job?
19 A I don't know. Never seen him.
20 Q Basically, you just go to a place
21 where he didn't expect the BA to come?
22 A Yes.
23 Q How many people were in that
24 quiet area; how many people were with you?
25 A With me or working there?
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2 Q With you in the quiet area when
3 the BA was coming.
4 A Two more.
5 Q Just two more?
6 A Yes.
7 Q It would be a total of three?
8 A Yes.
9 Q How long were you in that quiet
10 area?
11 A Half an hour.
12 Q In that time, at the end of that
13 half-hour, had the BA left?
14 A I don't know.
15 Q What happened at the end of the
16 half-hour?
17 A We were told to go to 35th, I
18 think, and Eighth, and wait for Mike Brennan.
19 Q 35th and Eighth and wait for the
20 shop steward?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And that's Mike Brennan?
23 A Yes.
24 Q You went to 35th and Eighth, and
25 what happened?
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2 A He came along and took us
3 upstairs to the union.
4 Q Where did he take you?
5 A The Local.
6 Q Where was that, do you remember?
7 A It is on 34th and Eighth, I
8 think.
9 Q So who was with you, the shop
10 steward, Mike Brennan?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Was it all three of you
13 gentlemen?
14 A Another guy came.
15 Q A total of how many?
16 A Four of us.
17 Q Would it be fair to say you know
18 the names of those four people, one of them
19 is you, but the other three? I'm not asking
20 you to name them, just asking if you know who
21 they are.
22 A Two of them.
23 Q What did Mr. Brennan do, did he
24 take you up to the Local?
25 A Upstairs, and sat around for
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2 awhile, then had a meeting, I got a card.
3 Q Did not?
4 A Got a card.
5 Q Did Mr. Brennan say anything to
6 you; explain what was happening?
7 A Didn't say a thing.
8 Q He just took you, basically, to
9 get your card at the Local?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Do you remember anything that was
12 said there, anything that happened?
13 A No, I can't remember.
14 Q Did you have to pay any money?
15 A We did.
16 Q Do you remember what you paid?
17 A I think it was 400.
18 Q Was it in cash?
19 A Yeah.
20 Q Where did the cash come from?
21 A On the job, the foreman came
22 over, when he came to tell us to meet Mike
23 Brennan, give him the money.
24 Q It wasn't coming out of your
25 wage?
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2 A The week after, I had to pay it
3 back.
4 Q Is that right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q So Tom McCarthy provided the cash
7 for each of the carpenters to become members,
8 would that be fair?
9 A The three of us.
10 Q The three of you?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What about the fourth?
13 A He just -- I seen him on the
14 corner of the street, don't know where he
15 came from. He came from somewhere.
16 Q Would it be fair to say that the
17 other two of the three who went to the quiet
18 area, one of which was you, had the other two
19 been working on the site during the entire
20 time period before?
21 A Yes.
22 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: How many
23 carpenters were on the site working,
24 total, at this time?
25 THE WITNESS: It was a huge job.
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2 I was on the cinemas. We are spread
3 out. Apartments, I was never up there.
4 They had their side and we had our side.
5 I couldn't tell who was up above.
6 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: How many were
7 on the cinemas in the area, that you
8 knew?
9 THE WITNESS: That's hard to tell
10 because it was spread out, huge floors.
11 Estimate, just carpenters, maybe ten,
12 fifteen.
13 Q Ten or fifteen?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Up above, you couldn't see?
16 A I was never up there.
17 Q Was Mr. Brennan the shop steward
18 for upstairs as well?
19 A I think so, I'm not sure; I don't
20 know. I was never there; I'm not sure.
21 Q Let me ask you this: When you
22 were working there, did Mr. Brennan walk the
23 job and do his job as a shop steward?
24 A Well, I don't know if he was
25 doing his job as a shop steward, but he was
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2 walking the job.
3 Q Was he there a full day, was he
4 there in the early morning, and worked for
5 the day?
6 A He could have been upstairs,
7 anywhere else, but I didn't see him all the
8 time.
9 Q That's a fine answer. That's
10 fine. All we are asking is what you saw.
11 Did you know the identity of the
12 business agent who came to the job on that
13 day?
14 A No.
15 Q Did anyone tell you anything
16 about who he was, afterward?
17 A No.
18 Q Did anyone tell you what that
19 person did?
20 A No.
21 Q So you went to 608 with Mike
22 Brennan and got your union card and you paid
23 about $400 for that, that Tom McCarthy had
24 given you that day; correct?
25 A Yes.
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2 Q And that money was taken back
3 from your check the following week?
4 A No. It wasn't taken back from
5 the check.
6 Q It wasn't paid?
7 A I said, I'll pay you back. And
8 he said, whenever you get it, give it back.
9 He gave it out of his pocket.
10 Q Let me compliment you on being
11 precise.
12 A Okay.
13 Q I'm not trying to put words in
14 your mouth. You tell it the way it happened,
15 and I'm glad. There's a difference between
16 the money came out of your check and paying
17 it back. I'm glad you pointed that out,
18 because we definitely want to be precise
19 here.
20 A No problem.
21 Q You got your union card. Did you
22 go on the sheets right away, or at all?
23 A No.
24 Q Did you go to either Mr. McCarthy
25 or Mr. Brennan and say, look, I got my union
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2 card now; why don't I go on the sheet?
3 A I didn't want to lose my job. I
4 was a nobody on that job, I was just happy to
5 have a job. I would have lost my job.
6 Q As I understand it, Mike Brennan
7 takes you to get your union card. You go
8 back to the site and you're still not on the
9 sheet; is that correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Now, so that answers that.
12 I'm going to start from the
13 beginning and go through, I'm always
14 interested; to me, that's a telltale sign.
15 What causes you to get your union card? He
16 takes you to get your union card. When you
17 get the card, who knows about it? And then
18 does it change how you're accounted for?
19 In your case, it didn't change how you were
20 accounted for, did it?
21 A Didn't.
22 MR. CALLAHAN: How did you get to
23 the site to start with?
24 THE WITNESS: From where I live?
25 MR. CALLAHAN: Who told you about
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2 this site?
3 THE WITNESS: On Par told me
4 about it.
5 MR. MACK: I'm going to start and
6 go through every site, all the way
7 through it, Bill, so we should have that
8 in order. I don't want to cut you off.
9 I think it would be better to start from
10 the beginning and go through.
11 MR. CALLAHAN: Fine.
12 Q Take me through your
13 chronological jobs, and I'll ask you the
14 questions.
15 When did you come to this
16 country?
17 A '99.
18 Q '99. Did you have carpentry
19 skills in Ireland when you were there?
20 A No.
21 Q When you arrived in '99, what was
22 your first employment?
23 A I was in Philadelphia. My first
24 employment was Jersey Shore.
25 Q What were you doing?
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2 A Working on the boardwalk.
3 Q How long were you doing that?
4 A About four months.
5 Q What was your next position?
6 A I came to New York.
7 Q Did you have any carpentry
8 skills?
9 A No.
10 Q So what was your first job once
11 you came to New York?
12 A Worked with a carpenter.
13 Q Was this a union carpenter, or a
14 nonunion?
15 A Nonunion.
16 Q What type of work were you doing?
17 A Framing and rocking.
18 Q Where were you primarily doing
19 it?
20 A All around the City.
21 Q Was that small residential?
22 A Very small, very small. Just me
23 and the boss.
24 Q Did there come a time when you
25 changed your employment?
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2 A Yes.
3 Q When was that? Could you put an
4 approximate date on it?
5 A April 2000.
6 Q April 2000. What did you do
7 then?
8 A Got a job with On Par.
9 Q Tell us how you got that job; how
10 did you go about it?
11 A Called up and give them the
12 details, and they called me back and said
13 start here. I can't recollect the first job.
14 Q That's a common statement by your
15 colleagues and friends. I mean, we've heard
16 it before, not remembering your first job.
17 A No, I can't.
18 Q Was it in Manhattan? Do you
19 remember what borough it was in?
20 A More or less all of Manhattan.
21 Q Do you remember what type of a
22 job? Was it a high-rise, was it a commercial
23 building, or was it residential?
24 A Framing and rocking, that's
25 mostly office work, high-rise.
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2 Q What was your rate of pay?
3 A $12 an hour.
4 Q Was there a shop steward on the
5 job?
6 A I don't think so. I'm not sure.
7 I can't really remember. I'm trying to
8 remember the foreman.
9 Q Let's try to remember the
10 foreman. Can you remember the foreman?
11 A His first name was Aidan,
12 A-i-d-a-n.
13 MR. MACK: Mr. Sobocienski, can
14 you remember a job with a foreman with
15 that first name? I think we have that
16 job.
17 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Another
18 thought. Were you doing framing and
19 rocking, or labor?
20 THE WITNESS: Labor.
21 Q Were you being paid by cash or
22 check?
23 A To start, I was paid cash.
24 Q When you are doing labor, what
25 were you doing; deliveries?
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2 A Deliveries, helping the
3 carpenters, and then you become a carpenter's
4 helper. You start picking it up and then you
5 get better and better, and ask for more money
6 and you get more money.
7 Q That's a theme that we have heard
8 from many of your colleagues. We just need
9 to go through it in some detail as best we
10 can. But on your first jobs, you were being
11 paid cash, green cash; right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q How was that cash delivered to
14 you?
15 A I come on the jobsite and there
16 would be envelopes, the foreman would go out
17 and hand it out, the name is on the front.
18 Q How was your time accounted for;
19 how did they know how much to give you?
20 A They come in the morning, foreman
21 gets names, clocks you in, calls the office,
22 and then he leaves. He writes down what time
23 you finished and calls the office.
24 Q What is he writing on, at least
25 in this time, does he have a timesheet or is
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2 it a little peace of paper?
3 A No idea.
4 Q Is the foreman's timekeeping
5 pretty accurate?
6 A Yes, yes.
7 Q Now, do you remember whether
8 there was a shop steward on this job or not?
9 A First job, no.
10 Q You don't remember whether there
11 was a shop steward or not?
12 A No.
13 Q How many carpenters were on the
14 site?
15 A I'm having problems remembering
16 information. I don't know. As a laborer, I
17 didn't know what was going on.
18 Q All I can ask you to do, is do
19 your best. You're having a hard time
20 remembering your first job?
21 A That was a long time ago.
22 Q Some people remember; some people
23 don't.
24 A I just remember the foreman, the
25 foreman's first name was Aidan.
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2 Q We'll see if we can find that.
3 How long were you on that first job?
4 A About two weeks.
5 Q What was your second job?
6 A I have no idea what my second job
7 was. I remember the first job because of the
8 foreman, he said he would buy me lunch.
9 Q Your second job, what was the
10 nature of that job, if you remember?
11 A Laborer.
12 Q How long were you there?
13 A I don't remember the second job;
14 but I remember I was a laborer for a couple
15 of years.
16 Q Basically, I want to see -- when
17 do we get to a point where you remember a job
18 that you were on?
19 A I do remember the second job, it
20 was a hospital in Brooklyn.
21 Q Do you remember where it was?
22 A No. I had to go on the E or the
23 C train. It is a rough neighborhood.
24 Q Can you remember the name of the
25 hospital, the Kings County Hospital?
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2 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Interfaith?
3 A I don't know. I was there about
4 three months.
5 Q Can you describe what it looked
6 like?
7 A There was an extension on the
8 side of it, and there was a railroad track by
9 it.
10 Q Was there a shop steward on that
11 job?
12 A I'm not sure. I'm trying to
13 think. I'm not sure.
14 Q Do you remember the foreman on
15 that job?
16 A Mike. He is from Kerry. Mike
17 Hanna.
18 Q Hanna?
19 A Hanna.
20 Q Do you know a Mike Hannon?
21 A No.
22 Q Have you seen this Mike Hanna at
23 other jobs after that job?
24 A He was with the company for a
25 long time, but I didn't get on any of his
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2 jobs. That was the only job I was on that he
3 was on.
4 Q Mike Hanna, on this hospital job,
5 was he the one paying you the cash, or
6 providing the envelopes with cash in it?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Was your pay primarily cash on
9 that job, rather than a check?
10 A Yes.
11 Q You were on that job, what,
12 approximately three months?
13 A Yes.
14 Q How many carpenters, approximate
15 estimate, were on that job, would you say?
16 A Fifteen, twenty.
17 Q Fifteen, twenty. It would be
18 surprising to me if there wasn't a shop
19 steward.
20 A I was just quiet, kept my head
21 down, working.
22 Q Did anybody come to you and try
23 to get your name, and: Let me see your card?
24 A Just the foreman. I don't
25 remember, they might have, but I don't
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2 remember. Just the foreman.
3 Q Let me say this: When you say --
4 I want to make sure, you're doing deliveries.
5 Were you doing any protection, did you have
6 tools on at any time?
7 A For the last two or three weeks I
8 had tools on, that's where I got my break to
9 start, was right there.
10 Q Even before you put the tools on
11 for two to three weeks, were you moving
12 sheetrock around on the job?
13 A Yes.
14 Q You were working on the
15 deliveries?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Were you doing anything else
18 besides those things, before you put the
19 tools on?
20 A No, not that I can remember, no.
21 Q Did a business agent ever come to
22 that jobsite?
23 A I don't know.
24 Q Were you ever told to hide at any
25 time; anything like that?
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2 A No.
3 Q What was your next jobsite, if
4 you can remember?
5 A The reason why I remember that
6 one, because that Christmas I went home.
7 Q You went home?
8 A Yes, I went home. Trying to
9 remember when I came back.
10 Q Where are we now, the end of --
11 Christmas 2000 or Christmas '99?
12 A Christmas 2000.
13 Q Okay. How long were you in
14 Ireland?
15 A About a month, a month and a
16 half.
17 Q And you come back to New York
18 City?
19 A Yes.
20 Q You go back to work for On Par?
21 A Yes.
22 Q When you come back from home,
23 what's the next jobsite they sent you to?
24 A I don't -- can't remember. Many
25 jobs, I can't remember.
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2 Q We are going to have places where
3 we have you on the shop steward report; and
4 as we get closer and closer to the present, I
5 hope you'll remember.
6 A It is coming back to me.
7 Q All right. Just do your best.
8 We are going to take a break in five minutes,
9 and then we are going to keep going until we
10 get done.
11 A Yeah, fine. Yes.
12 Q Now, when you came back, did your
13 rate of pay change because you were on the
14 tools?
15 A I was coming back and I was on
16 the tools before I left.
17 Q And when you went away, since you
18 had been on the tools, you were moving away
19 from pushing sheetrock; right?
20 A Yes. I came back and told them
21 in the office, and they said talk to the
22 foreman. I'm trying to remember what foreman
23 it is.
24 Q I bet you can remember that
25 foreman.
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2 A I'm trying to remember.
3 Q Let's think about it for a
4 minute.
5 A I can't remember. I wasn't on
6 the tools.
7 Q What did Mr. McCarthy say? Why
8 didn't he put you back on the tools?
9 A I'm not too sure. I think it was
10 the cinemas.
11 Q Back to the --
12 A I mean, that's where I came back.
13 Q Back to 34th Street?
14 A 34th and Eighth. I think. I'm
15 not sure.
16 Q Was the shop steward,
17 Mr. Brennan, still there?
18 A Well, as far as I remember, he
19 was still there. I was only on that job
20 once. I never went back. I think that meant
21 have been the job.
22 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: This is his
23 first time going to that job.
24 MR. MACK: I understand that.
25 Q Right after Christmas, you're
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2 back. You think you might have gone to 34th
3 Street. That might have been the time you
4 went there?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You told me about four years
7 before, you were on that job once, and that's
8 what happened when you were there?
9 A Yes.
10 Q So, did you ever go on the sheet
11 at the 34th Street job?
12 A No. I was getting paid bad
13 money, they are not going to put me on the
14 sheets. Getting paid bad money makes sense
15 for them, not to me.
16 Q I understand your way of
17 thinking. You're moving sheetrock?
18 A They don't understand that.
19 Q I'm not blaming you, I'm just
20 saying that's the type of work, moving rock
21 and things of that nature.
22 A I understand that now, but back
23 then, I didn't understand it.
24 Q I'm not criticizing you. So
25 after the 34th Street job -- how long, remind
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2 me what you told me, how long were you on
3 that job?
4 A Say maybe four to five months;
5 maybe six. I'm not sure.
6 Q During that four to six months
7 time, you were never on the sheets; right?
8 A Never, never. Just laborer the
9 whole time.
10 Q What was your rate of pay, $12,
11 or more?
12 A I got a pay raise on that job, 12
13 to 14.
14 Q Were you being paid by check or
15 by cash?
16 A I think check.
17 Q Can you tell me what happened;
18 why did it go from cash to check, if you
19 know?
20 A I have no idea.
21 Q Did anybody ever raise a question
22 and say, hey --
23 A I don't know; laborers and
24 carpenters never talk. They work themselves
25 up. Nobody told me nothing. I didn't ask
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2 questions. I was new.
3 Q I guess what I'm trying to figure
4 out, knowing laborers and carpenters, that
5 when you change from cash to check, that's a
6 difference, it is a piece of paper?
7 A I was curious why it was
8 happening, but I never asked. I still got
9 the same amount of money. Didn't complain.
10 Q Where were you cashing your
11 check?
12 A Anywhere I could.
13 Q So you're there four to six
14 months at 34th Street, and I think what I'm
15 going to do, since Mr. Nissenbaum needs a
16 break, let's take a five-minute break and
17 we'll pick up there.
18 (Short recess taken.)
19 MR. MACK: Back on the record.
20 Mr. Doherty, I want to state for
21 the record, has been discussing matters
22 with Mr. Sobocienski and perhaps Mr.
23 Callahan, but has continued to cooperate
24 and help us during the break while I was
25 trying to convince the U.S. Attorney not
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1 Doherty
2 to put a client in jail.
3 Basically, should we go to a
4 couple of sites, specifically, Mr.
5 Sobocienski, to --
6 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: I think we can
7 go chronologically.
8 BY MR. MACK:
9 Q After you were on 34th and
10 Eighth, what would have been your next
11 jobsite, Mr. Doherty, if you remember?
12 A I don't remember.
13 Q So when is the next jobsite that
14 you recall, by general location, that you
15 actually recall being there?
16 A 1745 Broadway.
17 Q Let's talk about 1745 Broadway.
18 Could you give me some idea what type of a
19 job that was?
20 A That was a high-rise.
21 Q When would you estimate that you
22 came to that site; about when?
23 A I came there in October.
24 Q Of what year, approximately?
25 A About two years, three years ago.
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2 Q When you got to the job, what
3 state was the job in, how far along was it?
4 A The total amount of floors was
5 70. I think it was on the early 50s.
6 Q Early 50s?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Who sent you to the jobsite?
9 A The office.
10 Q Is there any particular person in
11 the office that made those assignments? Was
12 it a woman?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you know the first name of
15 that woman?
16 A Maureen.
17 Q Maureen. Would it be fair to say
18 that Maureen sent you to 1745?
19 A I'm pretty sure.
20 Q When you first arrived there, who
21 did you meet with when you first arrived at
22 the site?
23 A A fellow called Noel Brady.
24 Q What was he; was he the foreman?
25 A Foreman.
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2 Q What did he tell you about what
3 was going to happen on that site?
4 A It was him and two other guys
5 there, On Par just arrived on the job, they
6 are laying concrete, so we had to get the
7 floors ready.
8 Q What did that mean?
9 A Clean the floors, so they could
10 frame it.
11 Q Was there a shop steward on the
12 site when you got there?
13 A I don't know about when I got
14 there, but soon afterward, shop steward.
15 Q Soon afterward is what, a week,
16 two weeks, three weeks?
17 A Say a couple of days.
18 Q Who was that shop steward?
19 A I can't remember his name, but I
20 can remember his face. He went to jail.
21 Q We know who that is. How long
22 was he the shop steward there before he went
23 away?
24 A Most of the time. I was there a
25 year, maybe longer; say eight months, seven
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2 months.
3 Q During the time that you were
4 there, were you ever on the sheets?
5 A I don't think so, no. I was
6 still a laborer.
7 Q Did you have the tools on?
8 A No.
9 Q When you say laborer, are you
10 doing what you did before as a laborer?
11 A Yes.
12 Q You're doing deliveries?
13 A Deliveries, yes.
14 Q And moving rock?
15 A Moving rock.
16 Q Anything else; getting coffee?
17 A Sometimes, yeah. As the job
18 progressed, guys came, more laborers came, so
19 they got me to control the laborers.
20 Q What was your rate of pay there?
21 A At that time, it was fourteen.
22 Q Fourteen?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Was that being paid by check?
25 A Check.
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2 Q Were you ever on the shop steward
3 report, as far as you know?
4 A I don't think so, no.
5 Q Did you ever have a
6 conversation -- let's talk about the shop
7 steward who went away to jail. That guy, did
8 you ever talk to him, did he know you were on
9 the job?
10 A Yeah, talking a lot.
11 Q Is that right?
12 A Yes. Didn't like him.
13 Q Why was that?
14 A He talked too much.
15 Q He talked too much?
16 A Yes. Nobody liked him.
17 Q Explain to me, and recognize, the
18 judge or his clerks will be reading this,
19 what was the problem in talking too much? He
20 wasn't doing anything, or what?
21 A Doesn't do anything. Shop
22 steward don't do nothing.
23 Q What I would say is, a good shop
24 steward works.
25 A I have no idea. I don't ask
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2 questions, I happened to be on the job.
3 Q Let's talk about this particular
4 shop steward. Did he come in when the
5 workday started, on time?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Did he stay for the full workday?
8 A I don't know, I didn't see him
9 all the time. It was a huge job, but I seen
10 him there a few times at the end of the day.
11 Q Did you ever have a conversation
12 with him, this is the steward that left
13 because of criminal problems, about whether
14 you should be on the sheet or not?
15 A No.
16 Q Explain, I think I know, but
17 explain to the judge why you didn't go up and
18 say, hey, listen, I'm moving rock all day,
19 why don't I get paid?
20 A It's --
21 Q You are earning a very low wage?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And because of that, your place
24 in the hierarchy of the job is pretty low;
25 would that be fair?
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1 Doherty
2 A Yes.
3 Q And so no one was listening to
4 you?
5 A No one.
6 Q But did you ever try to get
7 someone to listen to you, and say: I should
8 be paid more?
9 A It was not worth trying.
10 Q It wasn't worth trying; why? You
11 felt if you did, you could risk your job?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Would that be right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Any other reason why it wasn't
16 worth trying?
17 A Because on a high-rise, you need
18 so many people doing what I was doing. So
19 they help the carpenters. That's why there's
20 no way in the world you can get higher up,
21 they have enough carpenters. They need a lot
22 of people doing what I do. A lot of people
23 walk away.
24 Q Make sure I understand that. In
25 other words, they had plenty of carpenters,
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2 one way or the other?
3 A Yes.
4 Q They don't need you to be a
5 carpenter?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And number two, it would be very
8 easy to replace you, because of the level of
9 work you were doing;correct?
10 A That's it.
11 Q Therefore, you felt that if you
12 complained and asked for more, you might not
13 be working any longer?
14 A I wouldn't have lasted the day.
15 Q Would not have lasted the day?
16 A No.
17 Q Now, did there come a time -- let
18 me ask you this: Give me an estimate of
19 approximately how many people, what you call
20 laborers, I will call them carpenters, let's
21 say, doing labor-type duties and carpentry,
22 who you believe were off the sheets?
23 A I can't say, because I don't ask
24 people what they are getting paid. I don't
25 ask questions. I collect what I got. About
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2 ten.
3 Q Who were in the category that you
4 would call laborers?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And would it be your opinion that
7 most of those people, if not all of them,
8 were off the sheets?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Were they all being paid around
11 the same rate of pay as you?
12 A Probably less.
13 Q Probably less?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Was Mr. Brady the foreman on that
16 job for the entire time?
17 A Yes.
18 Q You were on that job
19 approximately how long, seven to eight
20 months?
21 A No. About a year.
22 Q Was your rate of pay no higher
23 than $14?
24 A It went to 16.
25 Q How did it get to 16; how were
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1 Doherty
2 you able to arrange that?
3 A Because I asked the foreman, I
4 was there so long, I asked him, and he said:
5 Soon, soon, soon.
6 Q You never went on the tools at
7 that job?
8 A No. Sorry. At the very end.
9 Q Very end is approximately how
10 many weeks?
11 A Weeks?
12 Q In other words, the very end
13 means for how long a time were you on the
14 tools?
15 A On the tools, about a month and a
16 half, two months.
17 Q When you went on the tools, what
18 was your rate of pay then?
19 A 16.
20 Q 16.
21 When the shop steward had an
22 engagement with law enforcement, who replaced
23 him?
24 A Mike Murphy -- Mike Mitchell;
25 sorry.
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2 Q That's his full name, Mike
3 Mitchell; right?
4 A I don't know. I think so.
5 Q When he came on the job, did you
6 have any discussions with him?
7 A No.
8 Q Did he know you were there?
9 A Yes.
10 Q How do you know that?
11 A Because I talked to him.
12 Q How frequently would you talk to
13 him?
14 A Probably every day; every second
15 day.
16 Q You had your card; right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Did he ever ask for your card?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Did he ever check to see that
21 your card was paid up?
22 A Yes.
23 Q What about the other people who
24 were doing what we'll call labor work, but in
25 your view they are doing carpentry work?
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2 A You can't get on the job without
3 a card.
4 Q Did Mike Mitchell card those
5 people?
6 A Yes. He carded everybody.
7 Q Did you ever talk to Mike
8 Mitchell and say, hey, I got a 608 union card
9 here and I'm not on your sheet, how come?
10 A No.
11 Q For the same reason you told me
12 before?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Let's talk about Mike Mitchell.
15 Was he on the job early mornings?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Did he stay the whole day?
18 A I seen him leaving early a few
19 days, but I can't say every day.
20 Q If we are taking a five-day week,
21 how many days did he stay a full day?
22 A I don't know.
23 Q I know you can't be precise.
24 A I don't know where he goes.
25 Q Just describe the job for me
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2 again, we know it was huge job?
3 A Apartments, there was two --
4 three sets of carpenter contractors on that
5 job. There was offices at the bottom and
6 apartments at the top. We had the
7 apartments.
8 Q Who were the other contractors,
9 if you know?
10 A One was Jacobson. One was
11 Prince.
12 Q Any reason to believe that either
13 Jacobson or Prince had people off their
14 sheets?
15 A No.
16 Q No reason one way or other?
17 A I know they didn't.
18 Q Prince didn't?
19 A No.
20 Q How do you know?
21 A Because he asked a lot of