Please Donate to cover costs and finance law suits by NY Carpenters
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2
----------------------------------------x
3
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
4
Plaintiff,
5 Index No.
-against- 90CIV.6722(CSH)
6
DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
7 AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED
BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND
8 JOINERS OF AMERICA, et al.,
9 Defendants.
----------------------------------------x
10
October 29, 2003
11 10:50 a.m.
12
13
14
15 Deposition of JOSEPH FIRTH, taken by the Independent
16 Investigator, pursuant to letter notice, at the
17 offices of Doar Rieck & Mack, Esqs., 217 Broadway
18 (7th Floor), New York, New York 10007-2911, before
19
20 Donna A. Metz, a Registered Professional Reporter
21
22 and Notary Public within and for the State of New
23
24 York.
25
2
1
2 A p p e a r a n c e s:
3 217 Broadway (7th Floor)
New York, New York 10007-2911
4
By: WALTER MACK, ESQ.
5 of Counsel, Independent Investigator
6
7 LISA R. ZORNBERG, ESQ. (portion)
U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE
8 Attorneys for UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
33 Whitehall Street (8th Floor)
9 New York, New York 10004
10
11
O'DWYER & BERNSTEIN, LLP
12 Attorneys for Defendant District Council
52 Duane Street
13 New York, New York 10007
14 By: GARY ROTHMAN, ESQ.
of Counsel
15
16
17
18 Also Present:
19 DONALD T. SOBOCIENSKI
20
oOo
21
22
23
24
25
3
1
2 MR. MACK: Let's go on the record.
3 Good morning.
4 What I would like to do today or at
5 least initially here is spend a little time
6 reiterating what I just said off the record,
7 so that's sort of the situation, and any
8 questions that might arise and what-have-you.
9 I do want to say I think I have gotten
10 the permission of everybody to use their
11 first names, because, as I say, this is a
12 proceeding that is pursuant to notice.
13 I will remind you, Mr. Firth -- that
14 will be the only time I think I will call you
15 by your last name here today -- that you are
16 here pursuant to a notice by mail that I sent
17 to you.
18 And I want to show you something that I
19 have marked as II, and that is referring to
20 the Independent Investigator, JF, which
21 should be simply a copy of what you were sent
22 requiring your presence.
23 MR. FIRTH: Um-hum.
24 (Whereupon, document marked Exhibit
25 II-JF for identification, this date.).
4
1
2 MR. MACK: So I just want to go over
3 that.
4 MR. FIRTH: Fine. Um-hum.
5 MR. MACK: In essence, that describes
6 my authority by the District Court and
7 requires your presence to come and testify
8 concerning a number of subjects, which I
9 tried to describe in general form in the body
10 of the letter when I talked about various
11 contractors.
12 I know you have seen that because I see
13 the pile of documents.
14 MR. FIRTH: I have the copy with me
15 now.
16 MR. MACK: Great. So that, and I want
17 to reiterate what I said, the fact that I
18 have sent you a formal notice does not in any
19 way indicate that I am a prosecutor or I am
20 acting in that way. Basically, I have
21 authority under the order appointing me to
22 require members of the District Council to
23 appear under oath.
24 As I've said earlier, the purpose of my
25 doing so, because you and I have met before
5
1
2 and talked before, and although I am sure I
3 hope again on a more informal basis, but
4 because of the fact that I know that on a
5 number of matters that I will be asking you
6 about today that they are certain at least at
7 this time to be the subject of a report to
8 the Court, to Judge Haight, under my
9 authority, that I felt it best to use my
10 power to require sworn testimony.
11 It is not only because of the need that
12 it be as accurate as possible but also so
13 that when I am writing my report, as I
14 anticipate I will be in the coming weeks or
15 maybe months, I will have the benefit of a
16 record, a transcript that the reporter is
17 taking, sitting to your right.
18 So it doesn't in any way, nor am I
19 indicating that I am investigating your
20 conduct or that this is in investigative
21 proceeding in which you are suspected of
22 wrongdoing or misconduct. It is designed to
23 assist me in doing my job, which is to make
24 accurate reports to the court.
25 MR. FIRTH: Um-hum.
6
1
2 MR. MACK: I think you know, from what
3 I have said, I am still learning the job, I
4 am still gathering the facts.
5 Some things that I have found, for
6 instance, I am told this is the policy, and
7 as I get more and more into the details I
8 find out there is no policy or if there is a
9 policy it's not communicated to everybody.
10 So I want to be the first to
11 acknowledge that much of what is happening
12 these days under my investigative authority
13 is designed to find out what the facts are
14 and what's the best way to deal with certain
15 challenges dealing with the Out of Work List.
16 So I want you to understand that is the
17 spirit of your presence here today, and it is
18 not an inquisition that I suspect you of
19 wrongful conduct and I am looking to
20 discipline you.
21 I know you know sitting to your left is
22 Gary Rothman who is obviously a lawyer who
23 represents the District Council.
24 I want to make sure you understand that
25 as we sit here this morning there is no
7
1
2 lawyer in here who has the sole obligation of
3 representing Joe Firth. Okay?
4 Therefore, although I expect
5 Mr. Rothman to be available to you and I know
6 he has already told me this morning that you
7 and he have discussed certain aspects of
8 what's going on today to a limited degree,
9 and I am going to let him speak to that, but
10 the point I want to make here is that I don't
11 want you to have any misconception that there
12 is a lawyer here whose sole obligation is to
13 worry about you.
14 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
15 MR. MACK: As I have said in the notice
16 to you, if you had wish to bring your own
17 counsel or, as the day goes on because some
18 of my questions will be detailed, you feel
19 that you would like a lawyer present whose
20 sole job is to be concerned about you, all
21 you have to do is tell me that and we will
22 adjourn and give you an opportunity to get a
23 lawyer --
24 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
25 MR. MACK: -- or to consult with a
8
1
2 lawyer. Because my purpose in this
3 proceeding is to be as fair as I possibly can
4 be, to ask fair questions, clear questions,
5 and get accurate answers, so that I can make
6 further decisions.
7 I find it very important, now that I
8 have done a number of these, to ensure that
9 you understand your rights, and I am going to
10 spend considerable more time on what those
11 rights are, but I don't want you to have any
12 misconception that Gary is your lawyer here
13 today.
14 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
15 MR. MACK: He represents the District
16 Council.
17 I know Gary, even in the time that I
18 have been involved, will do what he can to be
19 helpful and any time you want to talk to him
20 or he wants to speak about a subject -- one
21 of the purposes in his being here is that he
22 is available to you, that he's available to
23 describe District Council positions or things
24 that I may have misunderstood or something
25 that he knows that would come up or should
9
1
2 come up that, because of my inexperience --
3 as I have said many times, what do I know? I
4 am just a lawyer. I'm not a carpenter.
5 Basically the hope here is that Gary's
6 presence not only could be helpful to you but
7 also could be helpful to me in gathering data
8 or understanding certain things that were
9 happening.
10 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
11 MR. MACK: Do you understand basically
12 what I've said?
13 MR. FIRTH: Yes.
14 MR. MACK: I also want to talk briefly
15 about assistant U.S. Attorney Lisa Zornberg,
16 who is also here, and I don't see her role as
17 that dissimilar in terms of helping me.
18 The Government, the U.S. Government,
19 has had a much longer role in dealing with
20 the District Council of Carpenters. They had
21 a hand in crafting the order that appointed
22 me.
23 They are likely to have a much greater
24 understanding of the history than I would
25 have, and she is not here to in any way
10
1
2 intimidate you.
3 She is not here -- I mean she could
4 speak for herself as to why she is here and I
5 certainly don't want to put my words in the
6 mouth of the United States Government, but
7 the reason that I have invited the Government
8 to be present is for generally my purposes.
9 They are parties to the civil
10 litigation. My own prediction would be that
11 Judge Haight would not prohibit their
12 presence; and third, and perhaps most
13 important to me, if there is a question or a
14 factual development that I simply am ignorant
15 of, I would have the benefit of that data as
16 the questioning goes on.
17 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
18 MR. MACK: I am responsible for this
19 proceeding.
20 I am responsible to see that it's done
21 fairly and thoroughly and it's something that
22 I do as an officer of the court and working
23 for Judge Haight.
24 I don't work -- I am not working for
25 the United States Government. I am not
11
1
2 working for the District Council. I am
3 working for Judge Haight with an obligation
4 to the court of being thorough, fair and
5 accurate, and that's really what we are about
6 today.
7 Okay?
8 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
9 MR. MACK: The person sitting to my
10 right, who I know you know, is Don
11 Sobocienski. He is the individual who I look
12 to for investigative assistance and
13 understanding of things. He is much more
14 knowledgeable than I am on many subjects.
15 His job is to try to see that I ask
16 reasonably decent questions, and I may turn
17 to him from time to time and ask him to ask a
18 few questions or to clarify something.
19 He's here as an aide to me to avoid the
20 downside of my having to tell him or rushing
21 out and what-have-you.
22 Again, it is primarily designed for my
23 assistance in conducting a thorough and
24 complete -- getting a statement on the
25 subject.
12
1
2 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
3 MR. MACK: Do you have any questions?
4 MR. FIRTH: No.
5 MR. MACK: I do want to go over a
6 couple of other things.
7 Any time today you need to take a break
8 or you don't understand my question, if you
9 want to talk to Gary outside of the room, you
10 want to make a call to someone, that's fine.
11 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
12 MR. MACK: Okay?
13 This is designed in my aid. I'm not a
14 prosecutor. I'm not part of the grand jury.
15 I am an independent investigator designed to
16 gather facts.
17 As I said a few moments ago there are
18 many uncertainties in my mind about exactly
19 how things work, so this is primarily
20 designed to help me and to go on.
21 Having said that, though, in a few
22 moments you will be sworn, and I want to just
23 point out to you a couple of pitfalls that I
24 have noticed in my experience as a person who
25 frequently works for a public authority.
13
1
2 There is a sickness in the land that
3 basically is of the view that if you lie or
4 withhold information -- I am not talking
5 about you, I am talking about people in
6 general -- that basically no one will ever
7 find out, and that when you take the oath to
8 tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
9 but the truth, that doesn't mean too much
10 because you can get away with almost anything
11 these days.
12 I want to really caution you that I
13 know of your reputation, I know the kind of
14 human being you are, both personally having
15 interacted with you and seen you. I want to
16 give you the strongest possible advice I can
17 give you, which is do not lie --
18 MR. FIRTH: Um-hum.
19 MR. MACK: -- for whatever reason. If
20 there is data which you know to be of
21 consequence to my question, don't withhold
22 it. It's the truth, the whole truth and
23 nothing but the truth.
24 I will tell you my experience has been
25 that sooner or later the truth comes out.
14
1
2 MR. FIRTH: Um-hum.
3 MR. MACK: And basically should there
4 be a situation, though I have the benefit of
5 your sworn testimony, I learn that you have
6 intentionally deceived me or sought to
7 deceive me, not only is that a possible
8 charge of perjury, which is lying under oath,
9 but because I am a court officer and seeking
10 to find out facts and circumstances to assist
11 the court, that you also, one would also run
12 the risk of contempt of court which is in a
13 sense a criminal sanction based upon the
14 concept that you -- and I give this warning
15 to everybody so please do not think I am
16 singling you out to be cranky. I am not.
17 MR. FIRTH: I understand.
18 MR. MACK: Basically I say this to
19 everybody. Because the only way, based upon
20 what I know, that you could get into a
21 problem with me is if you lie to me or you
22 try to deceive me or try to send me down a
23 wrong track.
24 Not only would that delay me in finding
25 out what the truth is but it could very well
15
1
2 be considered by a prosecutor or by the judge
3 as an effort to obstruct my investigation or
4 an act in contempt, because I am for the
5 purposes of my work, all of my work at the
6 District Council, a representative of the
7 U.S. District Court and Judge Haight.
8 I've known him for many, many years.
9 He is an absolute stickler for the truth and
10 does not take kindly to anyone who thinks, I
11 will tell him a little of this and a little
12 of that and manipulate.
13 Unfortunately, too many people feel
14 that the truth is a meaningless concept that
15 can be bent any way that's appropriate. I
16 don't see it that way. I am sure the Judge
17 doesn't see it that way.
18 So I really want to make certain that
19 you do your very, very best to be as accurate
20 and as complete as you can be.
21 Okay? Do you understand that?
22 MR. FIRTH: Yes.
23 MR. MACK: Let me see if there is
24 anything else.
25 One other thing which I feel I have a
16
1
2 right, and I may ask Gary about this because
3 it's an uncertainty that came up in another
4 situation. I don't anticipate it coming up
5 today but I feel I have an obligation to
6 mention it, especially since Joe does not
7 have a lawyer. If in the course of my
8 questioning -- I don't think this is going to
9 happen but I don't know what is in your mind,
10 I can't predict everything that's happened.
11 In fact, the reason you are here is I am
12 trying to get data on specific things. If
13 you feel that an answer to a question might
14 tend to incriminate you --
15 MR. FIRTH: Um-hum.
16 MR. MACK: -- because let's say, and
17 this is hypothetical, somebody told you to
18 say something that was untrue, or somebody,
19 you know there is something that's wrong and
20 you have been offered -- hey, you can have a
21 vacation in the Bahamas for two weeks if you
22 forget this conversation ever occurred,
23 something like that.
24 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
25 MR. MACK: I have no information and I
17
1
2 would be surprised that you fall for anything
3 like that, but the point is I don't know what
4 the facts are.
5 If you feel that if I ask a question,
6 because I am going to ask you a very broad
7 question in the beginning which you are going
8 to have to think about it a little bit, you
9 don't want to answer it because it might tend
10 to incriminate you, it would mean I am
11 admitting I did something wrong that can be a
12 crime, and there is a Constitutional right
13 you have to say, Mr. Mack, you're a nice guy,
14 but I'm not going to answer that question
15 because it might tend to incriminate me, all
16 right?
17 Many people in the course of our
18 history have taken that. It doesn't mean you
19 are guilty of anything. But you have that
20 right and basically I would encourage you --
21 well, let me say this. Since you are not
22 represented by counsel here, if you feel that
23 that's the best thing for you to do, my
24 suggestion is you tell me that I need someone
25 to talk to to discuss that topic, and we will
18
1
2 adjourn.
3 Gary is conflicted and I don't want him
4 to make the judgment as to whether you should
5 assert it or not.
6 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
7 MR. MACK: Now, one question that came
8 up last week, Gary, was, not having anything
9 to do with Joe, was two members whose
10 attorney was talking about, I think I am
11 going to advise them to take the Fifth in an
12 upcoming deposition.
13 I don't know whether Gary Silverman
14 mentioned this to you or not, but the
15 question that I have, which I don't know the
16 answer to is does the District Council have a
17 rule that should a member, leave it that way,
18 assert the Fifth Amendment in the context of
19 a job-related, union-related subject, do they
20 have a policy as to what the implications of
21 that are?
22 Gary Silverman did not know the answer
23 to that question and I think I would go at
24 special length, I don't anticipate it
25 happening today, but before Joe were to do
19
1
2 something like that I would want to make
3 certain that whatever impact upon his career,
4 it was known before he took the Fifth. I
5 think that would only be fair to him. I
6 don't know that there is but I just want to
7 make certain that you've thought about that.
8 Okay. I am almost finished with the
9 introductory stuff. This is designed
10 basically to be fair and to make sure that if
11 you have any questions or any issues.
12 I would say if you do take the Fifth
13 Amendment, and I am not anticipating that you
14 will, I also should tell you I believe I have
15 the power, since this is a civil matter, this
16 is not a criminal matter --
17 MR. FIRTH: Sure.
18 MR. MACK: -- to draw inferences from
19 that and what those inferences are is only
20 something I would have to think about or
21 what-have-you. So there are consequences to
22 taking the Fifth, at least in my view, at
23 least with respect to how I evaluate and
24 consider what you did.
25 I don't think you have a reason to do
20
1
2 so. If I did, I would be even more concerned
3 about your having a lawyer here. I see this
4 primarily, as I have said before, as an aid
5 to me in trying to understand certain things
6 which I know I will be writing about.
7 Okay?
8 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
9 MR. MACK: Any questions you want to
10 ask me before I turn to Gary and Lisa about
11 anything they wish to say, anything on your
12 mind, any issue?
13 As I said, most important, if you don't
14 understand my question, you can say I don't
15 understand, what are you talking about?
16 Second of all, if you want to take a
17 break or if you want to think about
18 something, think about it. Choose your
19 words.
20 If you remember something, fine. Don't
21 make it up. Be accurate and precise. I
22 expect that. Okay? Fine.
23 Mr. Rothman, is there anything you want
24 to add or subtract?
25 MR. ROTHMAN: Just to complete that
21
1
2 thought.
3 MR. MACK: Yes, sir.
4 MR. ROTHMAN: Kind of the normal
5 boilerplate instructions on things like this:
6 Whereas, Mr. Mack said don't make
7 things up, choose your words carefully, think
8 about the answers so that you give a complete
9 and truthful answer.
10 Don't guess at an answer. Don't say
11 what you think the answer ought to be or what
12 you think the answer should be.
13 If you know, you know, and testify
14 completely and honestly about what you know.
15 What you don't know, don't guess at it. You
16 might say you don't know.
17 We discussed earlier this morning also
18 the possibility or the contingency, the
19 unlikely contingency that you might face some
20 question concerning which you would want to
21 take the Fifth Amendment. As we discussed, I
22 am not here as your personal attorney.
23 As Mr. Mack had suggested, if that
24 situation presents itself to you, as he
25 suggested, you should say that you want the
22
1
2 opportunity to talk to your personal attorney
3 concerning that and the matter will be
4 adjourned or Mr. Mack will perhaps go on to
5 other questions, so that you will have that
6 opportunity and you don't have to essentially
7 assert your Fifth Amendment privilege today.
8 The District Council has been faced now
9 with the situation -- not with the situation
10 but with the question of what its policy will
11 be with respect to a member that comes into
12 one of these hearings and asserts their Fifth
13 Amendment privilege.
14 The District Council has not had this
15 situation -- has not been confronted with
16 this situation until now, and as it is not an
17 AFL-CIO affiliated union, is not subject to
18 the rules concerning that procedure that
19 exists at the AFL-CIO or to my understanding
20 exists in the Teamsters or in some of the
21 other consent decrees.
22 I haven't reviewed our consent decree
23 to see if that addresses the issue, but that
24 is an issue that the District Council is now
25 sensitive to and has to review.
23
1
2 MR. MACK: Right, because it may arise
3 as early as Monday, this coming Monday, if
4 the lawyer for the gentlemen who will be
5 visiting us on Monday is a man -- he's
6 indicated that he anticipated that he would
7 be advising his two clients to assert the
8 Fifth.
9 So whether that's true, I, of course,
10 discouraged him from an automatic response,
11 but at the very least I said I would need to
12 have an answer.
13 I don't know exactly what the impact on
14 their membership in the District Council
15 would be and I think they are entitled to
16 know that in making a decision whether to
17 assert or not.
18 I give that digression. As I said, I
19 don't want Joe or any other witness asserting
20 it without a pretty clear understanding of
21 what, if any, consequences there are to their
22 membership in doing so.
23 MR. ROTHMAN: Okay.
24 MR. MACK: Anything else, Gary, you
25 would like to add?
24
1
2 MR. ROTHMAN: That's all. Thank you.
3 MR. MACK: I am going to say the same
4 things, that I will give both you and Lisa an
5 opportunity to ask questions at times. It is
6 designed, again, to assist me in not
7 overlooking important matters, something
8 which I may simply out of my own incompetence
9 and ignorance fail to ask. I do want to say
10 that's my view of the benefit of your
11 presence and the government's presence.
12 So I say that. And let me turn to
13 Attorney Zornberg and ask if there is
14 anything she would like to say?
15 MS. ZORNBERG: The only thing I would
16 say for the benefit of Mr. Firth's knowledge
17 is the United States Government had
18 absolutely no input in the decision to have
19 you appear here today for sworn testimony.
20 It was something, a decision that was
21 within the exclusive province of the
22 Independent Investigator, Mr. Mack.
23 It was not discussed with us. We were
24 simply informed of the deposition that was
25 scheduled after the fact of the schedule.
25
1
2 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
3 MS. ZORNBERG: Other than that, I have
4 nothing to say.
5 MR. MACK: As I said, Don Sobocienski
6 may, if I have neglected something that needs
7 to be done, he may ask questions from time to
8 time. He is basically part of the
9 Independent Investigator team. I am sure we
10 will be talking to you in much less formal
11 circumstances as we go on because of the
12 importance of many of the responsibilities
13 that you have.
14 He also has a responsibility to see
15 that I don't miss important topics today.
16 MR. FIRTH: Okay.
17 MR. MACK: Any other questions you want
18 to raise or thoughts?
19 MR. FIRTH: No.
20 MR. MACK: Donna, I would ask you to
21 swear in the witness, if you could.
22
23 J O S E P H F I R T H ,
24 having been first duly sworn by the Notary
25 Public (Donna A. Metz), was examined
26
1
2 and testified as follows:
3 EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. MACK:
5 Q. I am going to call you by your
6 first name, Joe, and you should feel
7 comfortable in doing so.
8 I am going to try to cover as
9 efficiently as possible certain areas you and I
10 have already talked about and others.
11 Before I begin, I want to say
12 certain of a couple of basic things and that is
13 the terms of the order appointing me.
14 Have you ever read the order?
15 A. Yeah, I had read it after you had
16 that big meeting with us in the basement.
17 Q. So you don't have really any
18 questions about what my job is?
19 A. No.
20 Q. There is one thing I have some
21 concerns about, not necessarily with you, but I
22 am not sure it's widely known, but there are
23 provisions within the order which specifically
24 require all members, including representatives,
25 that if they hear about or in some way learn
27
1 Joseph Firth
2 that there is wrongdoing, and I will use the
3 term, at a jobsite, that there is an obligation
4 to report it to me. Okay?
5 I don't know whether you have in
6 mind what those examples of wrongdoing are
7 because they are broader than one would think a
8 person who's only looking at the job referral
9 rules are. So I want to give you a couple of
10 examples.
11 It's very important in my mind,
12 and you should make sure this is communicated
13 to all your fellow business agents and
14 what-have-you, that should it come to your
15 attention, for instance, that a shop steward
16 report is inaccurate, that the 50/50 rule is
17 not being followed, that there is cash on the
18 job, or that there is an effort to bribe a shop
19 steward or a business agent, those types of
20 activities and others are specifically
21 described in the order.
22 So it's very important to me and I
23 would say to the anti corruption committee of
24 the District Council that should there be a
25 report, even if it's false, I mean we don't
28
1 Joseph Firth
2 really know. In other words, somebody who you
3 think is a complete idiot who has no basis, and
4 you've never trusted anything he said or she
5 said in their life, still gives you a report
6 that the shop steward or let's say that the
7 foreman is trying to bribe me --
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. -- that would be a situation that
10 you should make a record of and report it,
11 whether to Gary or to any representative of the
12 anti corruption committee, so that it could be
13 discussed and evaluated.
14 So let me say -- and this is
15 something which I am not sure all the business
16 agents understand, that if they get a report of
17 that it's something to be reported, whether to
18 Gary or to someone else, before there is action
19 taken to deal with it. All right?
20 And the reason I mention that is
21 that frequently, if there is corruption on a
22 jobsite, confrontation by the business agent
23 dealing with that means frequently that you
24 never find out whether there was corruption or
25 not.
29
1 Joseph Firth
2 Let me give you an example of that
3 because in my past I was responsible for
4 corruption in the New York City Police
5 Department.
6 A. Um-hum.
7 Q. And the first reaction of every
8 leader in the Police Department is that when
9 they hear there's something wrong in a
10 particular precinct is to go down and yell and
11 scream at the precinct commander. Okay?
12 The precinct commander always said
13 it never happened, denied it, and the
14 likelihood of our finding out, the Internal
15 Affairs Bureau, finding out whether it occurred
16 or not ended with that conversation. Okay?
17 Now, recently, and I want to go
18 slowly here, I want you to understand that it
19 is the purpose of the Anti Corruption Committee
20 to find out if there is corruption. Okay?
21 That's part of the job.
22 A. Um-hum.
23 Q. Because only by finding out
24 whether it exists or not can you take vigorous
25 action to root it out. Okay?
30
1 Joseph Firth
2 I would say Joe, one favor, you
3 should -- you should either say yes or no.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. Because when you nod your head,
6 Donna is unable to track that.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. Let me ask you this: Has there
9 been a situation recently in which some
10 carpenter reported to you an allegation of
11 corruption?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Tell me about that if you would.
14 A. 45 Broadway, Turbo Construction.
15 Gerry --
16 Q. We will go slowly.
17 A. -- he got dispatched to the job.
18 He called me up. I think it was that
19 afternoon. He didn't want to be on the job
20 first of all, but then he told me what they had
21 done, that the super, Sean, came up to him and
22 said supposedly they had been on the job
23 already before he got there for a while,
24 because I got the call one morning that, he
25 said to me he offered him cash and that
31
1 Joseph Firth
2 supposedly they all know about it up there and
3 everything else.
4 Q. This is Gerry speaking to you?
5 A. Yes. Well, I told Gerry to tell
6 them to go F themselves and to come and see me
7 in the morning. We're going to straighten this
8 out.
9 So Gerry met me down in the street
10 in the car as I was going into the office, and
11 he starts telling me this and that, and I was
12 pissed off.
13 Q. At Gerry?
14 A. No, at them.
15 Q. At the situation?
16 A. Gerry goes, I'm leaving that job.
17 You get back down to that freaking job and you
18 get another man, because I was trying to catch
19 50/50 and I think I dispatched a man that day.
20 There are a lot of jobs I deal
21 with or I told Frankie to get another job down
22 there.
23 Q. Frankie, you are talking about
24 Frank Schiavone?
25 A. Yes. I was real pissed off about
32
1 Joseph Firth
2 this. I think that night we are with the
3 council and speaking to Mike Murphy, and I told
4 him, do you believe this shit? You better
5 report that. He's right. I was supposed to
6 report that, and then I did report it about ten
7 minutes later to Maurice Leary and Gary Rothman
8 verbally.
9 I didn't do it by paper because
10 from now on I know what to do.
11 Q. A couple of things. Donna does
12 not have the benefit of knowing all the names,
13 so that the first time today when you mentioned
14 like Mo Leary --
15 A. Maurice Leary.
16 Q. You are doing fine, so you be at
17 ease. You relax. I'm relaxed.
18 A. That P'd me off, that situation.
19 Q. That's all right.
20 I want to hear about it because
21 obviously I am very concerned, too.
22 If there is something going on
23 that's amiss, and I want to make sure because
24 the decree that I work under I think had in
25 mind the importance of standing back and
33
1 Joseph Firth
2 letting the people whose job it is to deal with
3 corruption, which includes me, look at the
4 picture and say, okay, how do we determine is
5 this a truthful allegation of wrongdoing or is
6 it false. That's sort of our job to start
7 with.
8 I want to cover a couple of
9 things.
10 So as I understand the situation,
11 Gerry Burder called you, and what did he say to
12 you about what was happening on the jobsite?
13 A. Well, first of all it was -- he
14 didn't want to stay there and he was, after
15 leaving one or two jobs before that, he had, in
16 the summertime he got lucky, he got a high-rise
17 concrete job, 106th Street with Laquilla, and
18 that was probably one of his best jobs he ever
19 got and it was easy going for him.
20 He wanted another one like that.
21 There was another one coming up on 57th Street
22 with Laquilla and he would stay in contact with
23 the company, men on the job, when they were
24 going down there.
25 So what I tell most guys, it's the
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1 Joseph Firth
2 luck of the draw. It's a lottery system. The
3 lower you are the probably better off you are
4 to get sent to a job if it goes on.
5 Q. You are talking about a shop
6 steward dispatch?
7 A. Yeah. It's the luck of the draw.
8 It's a lottery system. He got sent to a
9 furniture job the other week and I said, what
10 the hell? What do you want? It's an
11 eight-month job and it turned out to be a
12 three-month job. I said Gerry's never happy.
13 So he left that job and we put in for a new
14 steward there.
15 He got a couple of one-day jobs,
16 two-day jobs. He walked off one job and left
17 and he said the company walked away.
18 Q. Go a little bit more slowly
19 because Donna has a difficult job.
20 A. There was so much in that one week
21 with him, it was so hectic.
22 Then he got sent to this --
23 Q. Turbo job?
24 A. Turbo job.
25 Q. At 45 Broadway?
35
1 Joseph Firth
2 A. Yeah.
3 He says, half the job is done
4 already. And I said, Gerry, from my
5 understanding there's at least three months of
6 work there. But I think he was P'd off because
7 it's not a fifty-man job. It's more like a
8 five-man job where you have to work. You have
9 to be there and you have to pull your weight.
10 Supposedly then this guy Sean came
11 up to him right away and right out, before he
12 got his tool pack on, supposedly asked him to
13 keep men off the sheet. This is what he told
14 me in the car.
15 He said, I don't want no part of
16 that. And I said, whatever that guy is telling
17 you, it's all bullcrap. I said, how many men
18 are on that list, Gerry, right now? He told me
19 like two or three.
20 I said, I'm sending down another
21 job. I think I told Frankie --
22 Q. Frank Schiavone?
23 A. Yes. We did send down another
24 guy.
25 Then I told Frankie, you better
36
1 Joseph Firth
2 keep an eye on that job.
3 They shut the job down.
4 Since then, like two or three days
5 later, I told Maurice and Gary what Gerry had
6 come to me about.
7 Q. Would it be fair to say that when
8 you heard this from Gerry Burder that it was
9 what, two or three days later that you told
10 Gary?
11 A. I would say within a day or two.
12 Q. Let me mention a couple of things.
13 A. Can I say one thing?
14 Q. Yes, absolutely.
15 A. I wasn't thinking. I know you
16 said to us that stuff like that was supposed to
17 be reported. It totally went over my head I'm
18 supposed to report that, and Murphy reminded
19 me, and I said you're right.
20 Q. Joe, as I said to you at the very
21 beginning of the day, there is a lot of policy
22 sort of snapping in, I call it. It's an old
23 military term which means there are a lot of
24 policies out there that I don't think people
25 understand how important they are, and that's
37
1 Joseph Firth
2 one of my purposes, to deal with it.
3 I understand there may be
4 uncertainties and I don't challenge your well-
5 meaning response. Okay? But I think it is
6 important to understand that from my point of
7 view it's always best when you get an
8 allegation like that to, before anything is
9 done, to report it.
10 A. Report it.
11 Q. Whether to Gary or to Maurice
12 Leary, and not take it on yourself. Okay?
13 MR. ROTHMAN: Can we go off the
14 record for a second, please?
15 MR. MACK: Sure. Let's go off the
16 record.
17 (Discussion off the record.)
18 MR. MACK: Let's go back on the
19 record.
20 MR. ROTHMAN: I would appreciate
21 it if you wouldn't keep reinforcing a
22 protocol that is not a protocol.
23 Q. We went off the record briefly and
24 it is one of the great values in having
25 Mr. Rothman here, which is basically that there
38
1 Joseph Firth
2 is a protocol, Joe, which you and I heard off
3 the record quite clearly, that it should go to
4 the director of operations, Mr. Maurice Leary,
5 and I would say almost instantaneously.
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. I am not here to chastise you.
8 A. Like before I started, right away
9 you get a steward down there and you try to
10 straighten things out, and I got caught up in
11 that basically. Otherwise, I would have done
12 what I had to do.
13 Q. Joe, as I say, we realize there is
14 a process here of trying to deal with it in a
15 certain way, and this is something I happened
16 to hear about almost immediately and I wanted
17 to convey it.
18 I don't know whether it's true or
19 not.
20 Here's one of my questions: Did
21 you call the foreman Sean --
22 A. No.
23 Q. Because here's the way the
24 complaint came in --
25 A. Yes.
39
1 Joseph Firth
2 Q. -- that Sean was all over Gerry
3 the next day and it's Gerry's view, because
4 there is a complaint that was filed that went
5 into the District Council that in some way Sean
6 got wind that somebody was on his case or that
7 there was a challenge.
8 Now, I don't know whether any of
9 that is true. That's a complaint.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you in any way communicate
12 your unhappiness to Sean or to somebody else
13 working at Turbo, at this 45 Broadway place?
14 A. No. I will retract a little bit.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. Turbo's office is about two blocks
17 from us. When I found out about this I was
18 going out to the office -- actually, I called
19 them first, their office, to see was it them
20 that was down on the job because the guy that
21 called was an anonymous phone call from the
22 building.
23 Who knows what he was.
24 So I called their office to find
25 out if they worked there. I asked for Terrence
40
1 Joseph Firth
2 Buckley. He is the owner, I think.
3 So he wasn't there. I left a
4 message. He called me back.
5 I said, I am just out on Eighth
6 Avenue. His office is two or three blocks
7 down. I said, I got to meet with you.
8 I asked him face to face, is that
9 your job? And he said, yeah, it is.
10 And I said, well, this is the way
11 it is. You're getting a shop steward and, I
12 said, you have the power to request men. Make
13 sure you use it.
14 And that is the only time I ever
15 talked to anyone from that company.
16 Sean Buckley I did not speak to on
17 a cell phone or a telephone call about
18 anything.
19 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to
20 whether or not someone, some representative of
21 Turbo was informed that there had been a
22 complaint about trying to keep carpenters off
23 the shop steward report?
24 A. Say that again.
25 Q. It's a long question. Let me try
41
1 Joseph Firth
2 to make it simple.
3 I am trying to find out, and you
4 may not know, but if you do know, I need to ask
5 you, whether anyone who represents Turbo,
6 foreman, owner, secretary, got wind of the fact
7 or learned to some degree that a complaint had
8 been made that the foreman was trying to get
9 carpenters to work without being on the shop
10 steward report.
11 A. No, no, not that.
12 But about a week later they had
13 left Turbo. Terrence Buckley called back and
14 he said, we're going back under our
15 international.
16 And I said, first of all, I don't
17 think you can do that. And I said, what the
18 hell is up with your brother? Your brother's
19 an asshole. You don't do that shit.
20 Q. So Sean is Terrence's brother?
21 A. Yeah.
22 So I said, you speak to Frankie.
23 I said, that's Frankie handling that job. You
24 call Frankie. His number is the same as mine,
25 29.
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1 Joseph Firth
2 Frankie had checked that job on a
3 Sunday and everything else, too. We have a
4 feeling that they're up to no good, and that's
5 it.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. But no one -- I, anyway, and I
8 don't think Frankie did, said to Turbo that
9 there's been a call made into the hotline,
10 because I don't think there was at the time.
11 Q. So that's another point that I
12 want to make sure gets out there to everybody,
13 is that whether there's a call to a hotline or
14 not, that's carpenter business in respect and
15 no one, because there certainly is a concern
16 that I might have, say I have it, that if
17 someone does call the hotline that they get
18 sanctioned in some way for calling the hotline.
19 In other words, discouraged from calling the
20 hotline or criticized for calling the hotline,
21 and I want to make certain that it is the right
22 of everyone, including you, to call the hotline
23 and complain about anything you want. Okay?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. I don't want there to be any --
43
1 Joseph Firth
2 whether it's an implication or it's a feeling
3 that it's a bad thing for a carpenter to call
4 the hotline because very frequently we find out
5 important things because of the hotline.
6 A. Honestly, I think it helps --
7 keeps people on their toes and they think twice
8 about being straight.
9 Q. That's the purpose of it.
10 So I guess the point I want to
11 make here is that when there's wrongdoing, an
12 allegation, whoever it is, even if you think
13 that person is an idiot and not worth listening
14 to, and I am sure there are people out there
15 that you have that opinion of --
16 A. Sure.
17 Q. -- the owner said Mo Leary is the
18 next person to hear about that --
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. -- and let Mo decide once that is
21 communicated what to do about it.
22 A. Um-hum.
23 Q. He is the one to be held
24 accountable for what it is and for what
25 happens, and I certainly need to hear about it
44
1 Joseph Firth
2 as well,, but if Sean Buckley was in fact, if
3 there was a conversation by Sean with Gerry or
4 whoever about no shop steward or keeping people
5 off the sheet or paying cash, I'd like to catch
6 him doing that. I'd like to nail him is what
7 it boils down to, because it's obviously
8 something that needs to be stopped, and it is
9 something obviously that we all need to hear
10 about.
11 But right now my guess is that the
12 Buckleys are going to be pretty careful, and
13 we'll discuss whether at a later meeting, maybe
14 tomorrow, whether they can simply invoke the
15 international agreement and things of that
16 nature, but we are not going to take time doing
17 that today.
18 Now, do you understand my point
19 here about the reporting and all that bit?
20 A. Yeah.
21 I did report it. Maybe not as
22 soon as I should have but I'm in the process of
23 learning this.
24 Q. You are. Me, too. And I
25 appreciate your telling me.
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1 Joseph Firth
2 Now, let me start -- what is your
3 position, what is your job?
4 A. Business representative and
5 trustee.
6 Q. Do you hold that position with
7 respect to any specifical local?
8 A. Local 608.
9 Q. What is the jurisdiction of Local
10 608?
11 A. West side of Manhattan, Fifth
12 Avenue over to the water and the Borough of The
13 Bronx.
14 Q. Currently, do you have any
15 specific territory or objective of assignments
16 that you are accountable for today?
17 A. Yes. From 60th Street to 110th
18 Street, all of Ground Zero, and the World
19 Financial Center, and 7 World Trade Center,
20 basically the buildings that were damaged
21 during the attack.
22 Q. So that's a lot of responsibility.
23 A. Yeah,, and if there's trouble, I
24 always get sent. I'm the runner. I go around.
25 Q. Why is that?
46
1 Joseph Firth
2 A. I guess because I'm the youngest
3 guy.
4 Q. I am not going to ask you to
5 comment on your fellow business agents.
6 Do you have enough time to do what
7 you consider your responsibilities are?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. I want to state, and I think you
10 know this, if there are concerns and questions
11 about being able to perform your duties, you
12 should not be quiet or bashful about it.
13 A. I wouldn't be.
14 Q. Good. Because in many respects,
15 as I have certainly said in the Anti Corruption
16 Committee meetings, the key to the success of
17 an anti corruption program in the District
18 Council are the accuracy of the shop stewards'
19 reports and the shop stewards doing their job,
20 supported by the business agents.
21 A. Um-hum.
22 Q. Now, one thing that you said today
23 that has come up recently in our meetings is
24 the fact that if a shop steward is dispatched
25 to a job and they simply walk away because they
47
1 Joseph Firth
2 don't like the job, or they say, oh, this is
3 not a long enough or a good enough job, it's
4 within the authority, and my understanding is
5 this is what Mo Leary said, and I could be
6 corrected, if the business agent feels that
7 they are just job shopping or they are not
8 performing their duties appropriately, they can
9 be sanctioned and sent to the bottom of the
10 shop steward list.
11 A. I thought that but it seems to me
12 a couple of times we have done that and I don't
13 know how the guy gets in front of the list
14 again so quick.
15 Q. Recognize this: My primary
16 responsibility is to see that the Out of Work
17 List and the dispatch is done fairly.
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. That's the whole purpose pretty
20 much of my job. There are other things that I
21 do but that's the key to my performance.
22 So if there are things -- that's
23 wrongdoing if a shop steward or a carpenter
24 manipulates the list in some way such as to
25 take an advantage that they are not entitled
48
1 Joseph Firth
2 to. That is something that should go up to the
3 corruption committee.
4 A. I don't know how it is, but I've
5 seen where we've all had a problem with the
6 shop steward before where he just hops off from
7 job to job.
8 I know one instance where I put
9 him in the back of the list, did not show up on
10 that job and somebody else did, and this guy
11 didn't go nowhere.
12 Q. It wasn't affected on the list, is
13 that what you are telling me?
14 A. That's what I think.
15 Q. This is what I would ask you to
16 do, and I am not going to take your time today
17 because I have discrete specific problems I
18 want to talk about today, but when we have our
19 routine discussions in the Anti Corruption
20 Committee it is my belief, that I am told, that
21 if a business agent finds or believes that a
22 shop steward is manipulating either the list,
23 the dispatch, or in some way is simply jumping
24 off a job because they don't like it, that you
25 have the authority, one, to raise it and to
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1 Joseph Firth
2 sanction that shop steward, I would assume,
3 with collaboration or discussion with the DOO.
4 Because I will tell you now that I
5 am going to be looking at many dispatches going
6 forward if I feel that a shop steward -- I say
7 a shop steward because those are one of the
8 most important things to me is simply jumping
9 off jobs because they are trying to wait for
10 the big one or something of that nature, I am
11 going to be asking the business agent going
12 forward, why wasn't that shop steward
13 sanctioned for simply job shopping?
14 It's my understanding that the
15 District Council expects a shop steward
16 dispatched to a job, to show up and to do their
17 job, whatever that job is. That's what's been
18 told to me.
19 MR. MACK: That's a fair
20 statement, isn't it, Gary?
21 MR. ROTHMAN: Yes.
22 Q. So my view is that I look to you
23 and your fellow business agents to enforce that
24 policy.
25 If in fact you feel as a
50
1 Joseph Firth
2 professional that the list is being manipulated
3 or failing to reflect what should happen,
4 that's something that should be brought to the
5 DOO, Mr. Leary, and come to my attention so
6 that it can be discussed, because I think
7 that's an essential part of an effective
8 dispatch system that those who seek to
9 manipulate the list face reality.
10 I mean, I realize some of these
11 policies are not enforced routinely but they
12 are going to be enforced routinely because that
13 is at least what I am being told is the policy.
14 So that's why you are not going to
15 see me being particularly cranky on some
16 subjects because I don't think all the business
17 agents understand what the policies are and how
18 to enforce it.
19 So that's one of my purposes here.
20 I want to say to you loud and
21 clear that if you find that you believe the
22 list has been manipulated by someone, whether
23 as a journeyman, less likely an apprentice, but
24 more certainly the shop steward, that's
25 something to be raised to the people in the
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1 Joseph Firth
2 District Council and for possible discussion at
3 the Anti Corruption Committee.
4 All right?
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. And because I take the view that
7 the business agents, I am going to hold the
8 business agents accountable, that if there's
9 wrongdoing on their watch and stuff like that,
10 I'm getting to the point where I am going to
11 say, look, this is the policy. What happened
12 here?
13 I am going to be less, shall we
14 say, tolerant if I think that they have become
15 aware of something which was wrong and simply
16 looked the other way or simply forgot it.
17 So that's sort of a message that
18 should go out there because I look to you folks
19 as being the people holding the system together
20 and making it work correctly.
21 Do you have any questions about
22 that?
23 A. No. I am going to say one thing.
24 Q. You say what you think needs to be
25 said.
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1 Joseph Firth
2 A. I don't agree with the eleven
3 days. I think a guy needs more time than
4 eleven days. I think at least three weeks. I
5 mean, that's tough. You're a family guy and
6 you get a job --
7 Q. Joe, let me say this: This is not
8 a dictatorship.
9 A. I just put my two cents in.
10 That's tough on a family guy, eleven days.
11 MR. MACK: I hope Mr. Rothman
12 hears that loud and clear.
13 THE WITNESS: They've heard that
14 before.
15 Q. Don't be bashful.
16 A. I won't.
17 Q. I know you won't.
18 My feeling is this, that if there
19 are inequities, my purpose is to make the
20 system better and I think it's fair to say the
21 District Council, and I would also say the
22 Government, nobody here wants a system that is
23 not responsive and sympathetic to the members.
24 All right?
25 A. Okay.
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1 Joseph Firth
2 Q. If the system needs adjustment in
3 order to be fairer and more appropriate, I
4 don't think there's anyone in this room or in
5 the District Council in the leadership who are
6 trying to push a system that can't be changed.
7 It can be changed. It's been
8 changed regularly. It's going to be changed
9 again, I am sure of it.
10 The business agents have an
11 important role in giving feedback back to the
12 District Council and saying this isn't right.
13 All right?
14 Whether that's a personal matter
15 about one person or it's a systemic issue,
16 don't be bashful about trying to make it work
17 better, because I know how much cynicism there
18 is out there even in the relatively short time
19 it's there, and I look to you as I look to the
20 District Council to say, all right, how do you
21 make it better? How do you make it fairer?
22 So we are going to be talking
23 about some of those situations today.
24 Now, before coming here today, did
25 anyone other than Mr. Rothman talk to you about
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1 Joseph Firth
2 what you should say or how to answer a question
3 or things of that nature?
4 A. I spoke to, that I was coming
5 here. I let my business manager know, John
6 Greany. I let Maurice Leary know.
7 Q. Great.
8 A. I actually spoke to Michael Forde
9 yesterday.
10 I told a few people. I'm not
11 hiding nothing.
12 Q. There is nothing wrong about that.
13 Has any one of those people told
14 you how to answer a question?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Or encouraged or discouraged you
17 from saying something --
18 A. No.
19 Q. -- or doing something?
20 A. No.
21 Q. I wouldn't expect it and there's
22 nothing wrong. You can talk to anybody you
23 want to. You can talk to anyone. I have the
24 right to ask about it.
25 A. I understand.
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1 Joseph Firth
2 Q. I want to talk about some of my
3 favorite jobs. Okay?
4 A. Okay. And I know what your
5 responsibility is.
6 Q. I want to say this. I want to be
7 efficient today but if there's something else
8 that I should hear about that comes up today, I
9 want to hear. I'm a person that -- I'm a fact
10 person and I like to hear what the situation is
11 and I can tell already, you tell it like it is.
12 That's fine.
13 If something was wrong about it or
14 something needs to be said, you say it. All
15 right? My view is you be perfectly comfortable
16 here. This is designed to educate me.
17 One of the sites that I am most
18 interested in is 7 World Trade Center. So what
19 I would like you to do for me is to sort of
20 start from the beginning.
21 I notice you have brought some
22 documents with you.
23 A. I just brought my sheets and daily
24 reports when I went there.
25 Q. So what I would like to do -- I am
56
1 Joseph Firth
2 just wondering, maybe we should take a break in
3 about five or ten minutes because if there are
4 sheets there that deal with 7 World Trade
5 Center it might be helpful to me to have looked
6 at them before I ask you questions.
7 In other words, do you keep a
8 diary of some kind or a record of what you do?
9 A. No, just a daily report. The
10 jobsite I went to and like 7 World, John
11 Corrigan shop steward, Tom McGeown super, Frank
12 Konners On-par.
13 Q. Let me start from the beginning on
14 7 World Trade Center.
15 Joe, when was the first time that
16 that site became something that you dealt with
17 or heard about?
18 A. In the building process?
19 Q. In the building process, not the
20 destruction process. We all have some
21 familiarity with that.
22 A. I couldn't give you the specific
23 month because I used to be at Ground Zero every
24 day for months after that. We were always
25 wondering, there was always talk about that
57
1 Joseph Firth
2 building's going first, that building's going
3 first. I don't know.
4 I know Urban went in there, Urban
5 Foundation. That's basically when, you know,
6 it's going to take off.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. That would have been in December
9 or January of last year.
10 Q. Of 2003 or 2002?
11 A. December 2002, January, maybe even
12 Thanksgiving.
13 Q. My feeling is this: If you have a
14 record that has a specific -- I am going to
15 show you some documents today that have
16 specific dates on them that I have gotten from
17 the carpenters. So I will use those and that
18 will help you with dates.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. But if you have documents, a diary
21 or an entry or a log that says, whatever it is,
22 on this day I talked to X or Y or did this, I
23 would like you to bring it up to me and show
24 me. I know I talked to so-and-so on this day
25 because I wrote it in my diary and I visited
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1 Joseph Firth
2 the site.
3 A. I wrote it on my sheet.
4 Q. What I am going to do is copy
5 everything that you brought to me so that I
6 have it.
7 You will have to be patient with
8 me because I haven't seen it.
9 Since this is a site I am
10 interested in, if you have a record that you
11 went on a date or had a conversation on a date,
12 tell me about it because I haven't looked at
13 your records as yet.
14 MR. ROTHMAN: He can keep them
15 out. This is not a closed book test.
16 MR. MACK: Absolutely.
17 Q. All I want to make sure, if you
18 look at one that you tell me about it so I can
19 see it.
20 A. I can't specifically tell you what
21 I talked about on all of them.
22 Q. Joe --
23 A. Regarding Tom McGeown, I
24 specifically talked to the guy three or four
25 times in my life.
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2 Q. Be patient with me.
3 All I want to know, if you are
4 looking at a particular document I can mark it
5 and look at it, that's all we are doing here,
6 because I tend to be a detail person.
7 If you talked to X on X date, I
8 would like to know that because the dates are
9 important, and so we want to be as precise as
10 we can.
11 Now, with respect to, what is it,
12 Urban Foundation; is that the name of it?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Did you talk to someone at Urban
15 Foundation when they were starting to do work
16 there?
17 A. I think I might have got a call
18 from Frank Malloy. I am not sure. He was the
19 shop steward at Ground Zero, and he told me
20 Urban were over there with a couple of men. I
21 am not sure but that might have been an
22 immediate dispatch.
23 Q. Tell me what you remember about
24 that. I am talking about Urban Foundation.
25 Did you go to the site?
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1 Joseph Firth
2 A. Just to get a steward down there.
3 At first the dock builders would
4 have been there ahead of us. So they will
5 always tell you, oh, it's dock builders work.
6 So you got to keep an eye on it because they
7 will keep doing your work if you don't stop
8 them.
9 Malloy would be watching it.
10 Q. Malloy, where was he working at
11 the time?
12 A. At Ground Zero, which is just the
13 fences, if you see through the fence you can
14 look right in. A tunnel goes in from Ground
15 Zero into 7 World. It's still there.
16 It's hard to say, but I think that
17 is how I got told that there were carpenters in
18 there.
19 Q. Did you go to 7 World Trade to
20 talk to somebody from Urban Foundation?
21 A. I spoke to, it was a super. I
22 forgot his name. I spoke to him once before, a
23 real nice guy, and he told me that they were
24 coming in a couple of weeks, like when I had
25 gone in there a few times.
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1 Joseph Firth
2 Q. This is Urban Foundation?
3 A. Urban Foundation.
4 Q. Did you go to 7 World Trade and
5 see what Urban Foundation was doing?
6 A. Yeah. I'm always looking in on
7 the jobs.
8 Q. I know you do and you have that
9 reputation. I applaud that, for going there
10 and making sure you know what is happening.
11 That is very good.
12 What I want to ask you is, how
13 many carpenters did Urban Foundation have when
14 you went?
15 A. I can't tell you. I don't know.
16 They might have had two and a couple of dock
17 builders.
18 All I know is they were there.
19 They were going to start.
20 Q. Were you the one who called in the
21 immediate dispatch for the shop steward for
22 Urban Foundation?
23 A. See, at that time Maurice McGrath
24 was like downtown. So he was around the area,
25 too. I had already known. I wasn't waiting a
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2 day. He got a call from Urban.
3 Q. Did you ask, if you remember, in
4 your immediate dispatch, did you ask for any
5 specific job skills for the shop steward?
6 A. I had the folder this morning and
7 I was going to bring it. I probably would have
8 pulled in basic concrete, wood framing,
9 protection. I tried to keep that on all my
10 concrete jobs.
11 Q. Tell me what your policy is on
12 your concrete jobs as far as skills.
13 What is your practice?
14 A. Concrete, wood framing, protection
15 most of the time.
16 Q. With respect to 7 World Trade, we
17 will get that dispatch.
18 A. Yeah. There might have been some
19 scaffolding on that, too, because that was --
20 there was a serious amount of scaffolding down
21 on the ground.
22 Actually, a lot of guys got hurt
23 falling off scaffolding to the rebar there.
24 Q. Is that right?
25 A. Yeah, one or two guys it went
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1 Joseph Firth
2 right through them. There might have been
3 scaffolding on that.
4 Q. Let me ask you -- what is the
5 difference between 8-hour scaffolding, 16-hour
6 scaffolding and 32-hour scaffolding?
7 A. The time, I guess. I honestly
8 don't know.
9 Q. This is one of the things that we
10 discussed.
11 Have you ever, for instance, had
12 someone explain to you whether the skill, the
13 difference between 8-hour, 16 or 32?
14 A. No, but I'm sure it's more
15 advanced. I mean, there's different types of
16 scaffolding. It's not your basic stuff and
17 that's what it is, if it's more.
18 Q. Other than --
19 A. We used to have, and I don't know
20 what it is now, on the Council's
21 qualifications.
22 Q. Right.
23 A. But for scaffolding it was an
24 8-hour scaffold. So I would have a list on my
25 bulletin board or my pin board and I would look
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1 Joseph Firth
2 up, boom, eight hours.
3 Q. We don't have the dispatch and we
4 will get the dispatch and we will look at it,
5 and I may call you about it if I have a
6 question.
7 In your mind, if you are looking
8 at a jobsite, how do you determine whether or
9 not the skill should be eight, sixteen or
10 thirty-two?
11 A. I can't answer that because I very
12 rarely, almost never do I put in scaffolding.
13 I think I put it in once or twice.
14 Q. Is it your practice to ask someone
15 from the contractor as to which one to put in
16 or do you just make the judgment yourself?
17 A. No. If a contractor -- why would
18 you put in 32-hour if the contractor didn't ask
19 you to do it? There's got to be something for
20 it.
21 Q. As a general rule, if a contractor
22 asks you to put a skill in for a job, what is
23 your practice when that happens?
24 A. Oh, I put it in, especially, if he
25 says that's what he wants, that's what he
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1 Joseph Firth
2 wants. I'm not going to argue with the guy.
3 Q. Right.
4 A. It's just like this came up with 7
5 World now with Donaldson.
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. That was a little odd.
8 Q. I don't know about that one. What
9 did Donaldson ask for?
10 A. But, again, that's -- I don't
11 know. It was drywall, framing, protection.
12 But there was one thing that kind
13 of stood out, but they probably know more about
14 the job than I do. They called it in. They
15 are doing the bolts, the Con Ed bolts, which is
16 very tedious. So that's a situation where they
17 knew something more than I would have known.
18 Q. So do you pretty much accept what
19 the contractor says is the skill?
20 Let's say they put a skill on
21 like, you know, asbestos or something of that
22 nature, and you don't think there is any reason
23 at all that you could know of, will you
24 challenge them?
25 A. I really haven't come across that
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1 Joseph Firth
2 too much.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. Sometimes, like we had that
5 problem down in -- we actually had to run a
6 class for asbestos, EuroTech, down at Ground
7 Zero because the building asked the company to
8 do that and then they called us.
9 They called me up the other day
10 and asked me -- the guys' licenses all ran out
11 and they had to renew them again because they
12 are expecting with Deutsche Bank down there
13 some major work.
14 Most of the time I won't question
15 it unless it's really out there.
16 MR. MACK: Why don't we take ---
17 let's say somewhere five to eight
18 minutes, and we will pick up again. So
19 why don't we take a break.
20 (Whereupon, a recess was taken at
21 11:57 a.m.)
22 (Whereupon, the deposition resumed
23 at 12:07 p.m.
24 BY MR. MACK:
25 Q. You are still under oath. You
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1 Joseph Firth
2 have all the same rights you had before.
3 We will take a break for lunch and
4 we will return after lunch. I am sorry to take
5 so much of your time but you are providing a
6 lot of help to me and I appreciate that.
7 I want to pick up with 7 World
8 Trade Center. I am not sure, I may have
9 forgotten what you told me about Urban
10 Foundation.
11 Did you go and actually visit 7
12 World Trade while Urban Foundation was there?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. What did you see? What did the
15 site look like?
16 A. It was just a mess. You know,
17 just dispatched carpenters, a shop steward I
18 think actually at first it was Neil O'Shea, got
19 the job. I think it was an immediate.
20 Q. We are going to get the data and I
21 am going to do my level best not to have you
22 come back. If there are things we need to tie
23 up details I will let Gary know and I will
24 simply call you on the phone.
25 A. Sure, no problem.
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1 Joseph Firth
2 Q. I don't have that dispatch but you
3 believe you were the one who requested the
4 immediate?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. What was the next development that
7 you can remember about that site? What
8 happened next?
9 A. Nothing, just the foundation was
10 taken -- it was a lot of work, a lot of time,
11 and they were talking about who was going to
12 get the job, the upper. That was the talk.
13 Q. When you say "they," I am going to
14 ask you who is the "they"?
15 A. The carpenters on the job, the
16 carpenters at Ground Zero, they were all
17 wondering who was going to do the upper. You
18 always hear rumors, this person's doing it.
19 Q. What did you hear were the
20 candidates for the -- do they call it the
21 superstructure?
22 A. The upper structure.
23 Q. The upper structure?
24 A. Did we have Laquilla? I don't
25 know. It turned out Sorbara got it.
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1 Joseph Firth
2 Q. When was the first time you heard
3 that Sorbara was possibly going to get the
4 upper structure for 7 World Trade Center?
5 A. I probably would have heard it
6 from Neil O'Shea, the shop steward down there,
7 and probably a couple of weeks before they came
8 in.
9 I can't give you --
10 Q. We are going to talk about it.
11 And remember what I said to you. If you have
12 something in front of you which would help you
13 be more precise in your answer, in other words,
14 if you have a note, I was on the jobsite here
15 and I talked to so-and-so, you have those in
16 front of you. As Gary said, this is an
17 open-book test. I just need to be able to
18 capture what the sheet is that you are looking
19 at. So you feel free to look at that.
20 Neil O'Shea was the shop steward
21 for Urban Foundation?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Was he handing in and completing
24 his shop steward reports accurately?
25 A. Yeah. He only had the top eight
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1 Joseph Firth
2 guys at one time.
3 Q. Those eight guys, how long did
4 that part of the job last?
5 A. Actually, they had a lot of
6 shutdown time because they were running into
7 the old foundation. The drawings were nothing
8 what they previously thought it what.
9 So they had times when they would
10 be out of work a week or two, three weeks.
11 They just finally finished six -- five weeks
12 ago. So they had different phases.
13 Q. Has Neil O'Shea been the shop
14 steward all along?
15 A. Yeah. He didn't put his name back
16 on the list. He finally -- I think he got
17 called the other day to go out after about six
18 weeks.
19 Q. Do you believe it was Neil O'Shea
20 who was the first person who mentioned to you
21 that it might be Sorbara Construction?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Okay. What was the next thing
24 that you did with respect to 7 World Trade?
25 What did you do?
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1 Joseph Firth
2 A. Nothing. I just got to sit and
3 wait until they were ready for it.
4 Q. When did you first hear or learn
5 that it in fact would be Sorbara?
6 A. Probably down at the jobsite. I
7 would pull in my car right there and you would
8 hear that Sorbara got it.
9 Q. Say that again.
10 A. You hear definitely that Sorbara
11 got it.
12 I am trying to think, there was
13 one other company that I was hearing might get
14 it and it might be Di Fama. You were hearing
15 all kinds of stuff and I was hoping that it
16 wasn't Di Fama.
17 Q. We are going to go into Di Fama
18 today so don't worry about it.
19 When you have a specific
20 recollection of a conversation with someone, or
21 have received a writing, and we will get to
22 some writings, you tell me about it, because
23 I'm trying to be as precise as possible.
24 If you can't recall it, I know you
25 are doing your best, give me your best
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1 Joseph Firth
2 recollection, but I am interested in the names
3 and the places.
4 In my business, and again, I say
5 this because Mike Forde always says this to me,
6 "What do I know, I'm a carpenter." And I
7 always say, "What do I know, I'm a lawyer."
8 The point is, lawyers, their
9 frequent questions are who, what, where, when,
10 how. That's what they're looking at.
11 So if you are having a
12 conversation with someone, I'm thinking, who
13 was the person, who was present, what was the
14 conversation about, when was it, where was it,
15 and what was said.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. So if you can have that in mind it
18 would allow me to save me asking you that every
19 time.
20 A. Sure.
21 Q. So what is your best recollection
22 of how you learned that Sorbara would be the
23 company to do the upper structure?
24 A. I would say from Neil O'Shea
25 telling me that Sorbara, and then -- it was
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1 Joseph Firth
2 Neil O'Shea and then a couple of days later I
3 went down there and I saw McGeown there.
4 Q. We are talking about Tom McGeown?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Who is Tom McGeown. Let's make
7 the record clear.
8 A. He works for Sorbara. I thought
9 he was a carpenter but he's actually an
10 engineer at the time.
11 He used to be a carpenter, they
12 told me later on. So I thought I was dealing
13 with a carpenter, but I was dealing with an
14 engineer.
15 Q. In your first contact with Tom
16 McGeown, what was his position at Sorbara, if
17 you know?
18 A. On the jobsite itself?
19 Q. In general.
20 A. In general, right now he's like a
21 general super.
22 Q. Okay. Now, in your first
23 conversation with McGeown, Tom McGeown about 7
24 World Trade, what was said? What happened?
25 A. This place is a mess. The
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1 Joseph Firth
2 drawings, nothing matches up. And I said I
3 know they have problems with foundation. It
4 was going to be a couple of weeks.
5 Q. When would you say that
6 conversation occurred, as best you can guess?
7 Let me give you a hint.
8 The dispatch was around February.
9 A. I was going to say January.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Maybe.
12 Q. That's your best recollection?
13 A. I know it was cold.
14 Q. Did this conversation occur
15 actually on the jobsite?
16 A. Yeah. Actually, I could tell you
17 exactly right where I met him.
18 Q. You tell me.
19 A. With Neil O'Shea, right at 7 World
20 as you're coming down Greenwich Street you run
21 right smack into 7 World, there's a side street
22 that goes up, right around there, I met him for
23 a couple of minutes. That was my first meeting
24 with McGeown.
25 I had heard of him but that was my
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1 Joseph Firth
2 first meeting ever with him.
3 Q. Did the conversation concern
4 anything having to do with the shop steward?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Tell me what was said. I want to
7 hear it.
8 A. When are you going to be ready?
9 When you need a shop steward, give us a call.
10 And he said, I don't know which way it's going
11 right now.
12 Q. What does that mean? He doesn't