UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
-------------------------------------------x
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
90 CIV 5722
-against- (CSH)
DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED
BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND
JOINERS OF AMERICA, et.al.,
Defendants.
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Independent Investigator Deposition
March 9, 2005
5:00 o'clock p.m.
DEPOSITION of SALVATORE TAGLIAFERRO,
taken by the Independent Investigator, Walter
Mack, Esq., pursuant to letter subpoena, at the
offices of Doar, Rieck & Mack, Esqs., 217
Broadway, 7th Floor, New York, New York
10007-2911, before Stewart Nissenbaum, a Shorthand
Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New
York.
TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
305 Madison Avenue 142 Willis Avenue
Suite 449 P.O. BOX 347
New York, N.Y. 10165 Mineola, N.Y. 11501
(212)349-9692 (516)741-5235
1 2
2 A P P E A R A N C E S :
3
4 DOAR RIECK & MACK
217 Broadway, 7th Floor
5 New York, New York 10007-2911
6 BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.
Independent Investigator
7
8
ALSO PRESENT:
9
Donald Sobocienski
10
11
12 * * *
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
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25
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2 MR. MACK: Let's go on the
3 record, please.
4 Good afternoon, Mr. Tagliaferro.
5 I want to spend a few moments, as it is
6 my habit, in going over some things, and
7 although we've spoken briefly
8 beforehand, I want you to understand all
9 of your rights as a witness who is
10 appearing here as a result of the notice
11 that I sent you. So it will be a
12 considerable time, or a few moments
13 here, that I will spend going over your
14 rights. But it is designed, because I
15 am a representative of the Court, to
16 ensure that you, as any witness who
17 appears here, understand your rights
18 before me.
19 Let me start from the beginning.
20 My name is Walter Mack. I am the
21 Independent Investigator appointed by
22 Federal Judge Charles S. Haight, Jr.,
23 and I have been appointed as a result of
24 the consent of the District Council of
25 Carpenters and the United States
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2 Attorney's Office in the Civil Division.
3 My duties, in general, are to run
4 the 24-hour hotline, our corruption
5 hotline; to investigate wrongdoing, as
6 defined in the Order, on jobsites; to
7 write reports for the Court, and to make
8 recommendations. I am not a prosecutor;
9 I have been a prosecutor. I am not a
10 defense lawyer; I have been a defense
11 lawyer. I am a defense lawyer in a
12 number of cases. My job is primarily
13 gathering facts and writing reports. I
14 leave to the parties and to the judge
15 what are the appropriate disciplines or
16 actions to be taken as a result of my
17 reports.
18 Now, I have talked to you briefly
19 on a number of subjects; and although I
20 think I know the answer to these
21 questions, the judge would require me to
22 ensure that you understand your rights,
23 so bear with me; let me go over them
24 again.
25 As I've told you, you have a
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2 right to have legal counsel present
3 here. It makes no difference to me
4 whether you have a lawyer present or not
5 present. It is up to you. You have
6 told me, and I will ask you again, if
7 you feel you need to have a lawyer
8 present, that is your choice. If at any
9 time during today's questioning you feel
10 that you would like to change your mind
11 and have a lawyer present, I will stop
12 this deposition and give you the
13 opportunity to find a lawyer to sit
14 beside you. But that lawyer, -- that's
15 up to you. Some people come with
16 lawyers some people don't. Makes no
17 difference to me.
18 The rule and the most important
19 rule is the same, whether you have a
20 lawyer or not. In a few moments you
21 will be placed under oath. You will be
22 under oath in which you swear to tell
23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
24 but the truth. What your lawyer would
25 have to say to you is what I'm saying to
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2 you now, that when I ask you a question,
3 you have to answer truthfully,
4 completely, to the best of your ability.
5 That is your obligation.
6 If you decline to do that, and
7 there have been carpenters who have sat
8 where you're sitting, and lied to me
9 under oath, I say to you what I've said
10 to all of them: If you lie to me under
11 oath, you can be certain that I will
12 recommend to the District Court that you
13 be prosecuted for perjury. I have no
14 prosecutorial authority. I cannot
15 prosecute you for perjury, myself, for
16 perjury. The only real power that I
17 have, as an agent of the Court, is to
18 recommend, based on my opinion as to
19 whether a witness has lied to me or not.
20 I say this to every witness. I'm
21 not singling you out; I'm not saying I
22 expect you to lie the me. On the
23 contrary, I expect you to tell the
24 truth. Should you lie to me or not
25 disclose to me, information of
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2 importance, relevant to my questions, in
3 other words, act in some way to prevent
4 me from understanding the truth and
5 getting to the bottom of the situations
6 that I'm going to be talking to you
7 about, you could also be charged with
8 the crime of obstruction of justice.
9 Obstruction of justice in this
10 case, would mean rather than assist me
11 in doing my job, in finding and
12 discovering what the facts are about
13 particular job -- the only reason that
14 you are here, I've sent you a notice, is
15 to focus on one job that has come to my
16 attention through a variety of different
17 ways, and all I'm saying to you is,
18 listen to my question, my question
19 should be simple and clear, and answer
20 it consistently with your oath. If you
21 don't do that, you risk being charged
22 criminally for lying to a federal
23 officer or obstruction of justice, both
24 of which crimes, should you be charged
25 or convicted, could result in a fine or
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2 imprisonment.
3 My words are almost exactly the
4 same for every person sitting where you
5 sit, contractor or carpenter. I'm
6 saying honor your oath. There have been
7 carpenters who have not honored their
8 oath. There will be, in my view,
9 prosecutions for perjury of people who
10 have come in and not told the truth.
11 That's important.
12 There are a number of other
13 rights that you have. If you don't
14 understand a question of mine, my
15 purpose, and the judge or his clerks
16 read these transcripts, and I am his
17 agent, I don't work for the District
18 Council, I do not work for the United
19 States Government. I work for Judge
20 Haight. He expects me to be fair,
21 thorough, and direct; and I try to be
22 that way. So, if you do not understand
23 my question, or you feel that you don't
24 understand what I'm asking you in some
25 way, all you have to do is say to me,
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2 Mr. Mack, I don't understand what you're
3 asking, and I will rephrase it.
4 This is not designed to be other
5 than an opportunity for me to inquire
6 about certain facts that have come -- or
7 allegations that have come to my
8 attention about a job on which you were
9 the shop steward. The judge would be
10 unhappy with me if he thought I was not
11 fair with you, and didn't ask clear
12 questions.
13 Another fact which is of some
14 importance: You have a Fifth Amendment
15 right when you appear before me. This
16 is not the District Council's process or
17 disciplinary system, of which I have
18 criticisms, significant criticisms, this
19 is a Federal Court proceeding and I as
20 an agent of the Court. I'm seeking
21 information in order to provide
22 information to the judge. If you were
23 standing in front of the judge and there
24 was q factual hearing underway, you
25 could do exactly what I'm talking to you
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2 about, and that is, refuse to answer the
3 question because a truthful answer to
4 that question would tend to incriminate
5 you. That's your constitutional right.
6 Now, there's some people who have
7 asserted the Fifth, but not many. But
8 what I would encourage you to do, if you
9 feel that you should take the Fifth
10 Amendment, I would definitely tell you
11 to discuss it with an attorney before
12 you do so. You've asked me, Mr. Mack,
13 have I paid every cent in my tax, in
14 terms of income tax. I'm not going to
15 ask questions like that, but that might
16 be a question where you say, maybe I
17 didn't put that trip down, or whatever.
18 I'm not even going to hypothesize the
19 situation. Before you take it, the
20 Fifth Amendment, I would encourage you
21 to talk to a lawyer about whether you
22 should or shouldn't.
23 If you do take the Fifth
24 Amendment, there are a couple of things
25 you should understand. This is not a
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2 Grand Jury. This is a civil proceeding.
3 I can draw conclusions from your failure
4 to answer questions. In other words, in
5 a criminal matter, the assertion of the
6 Fifth Amendment cannot be used in any
7 way against the defendant. However in a
8 civil proceeding, if I ask you, well,
9 what about this guy on the shop steward
10 report; and you say, well, I'm not going
11 to answer that question, you know, I'll
12 take the Fifth Amendment on that
13 Mr. Mack, all due respect, I ain't
14 telling you about it. I say okay. But
15 I can decide, based upon other evidence,
16 and also based on your failure to answer
17 my questions, there's something wrong
18 about this guy or about this thing, or
19 what have you. I'm not limited from
20 using your failure to give me an answer
21 against you in a sense, because I'm
22 going the write a report about this
23 jobsite. There are a lot of things
24 about this jobsite that I'm interested
25 in. I don't want you to have any
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2 question about that.
3 In addition to that, if somebody
4 asserts the Fifth Amendment, I always
5 refer the matter to a prosecutor for
6 evaluation, either the U.S. Attorney or
7 District Attorney, because it is their
8 job to determine whether or not the
9 assertion of the Fifth Amendment is
10 covering up some criminal act, or it is
11 simply an act of prudence, so as quoted
12 to me many times, decent people assert
13 the Fifth Amendment all the time because
14 they don't want to give the prosecutor
15 any possible way of linking someone to a
16 job or site or a question or a person.
17 Just asserting the Fifth doesn't really
18 mean anything in this proceeding,
19 because I would have to have some reason
20 for inferences.
21 Your right, if you say to me,
22 hey, I'm not going to answer this
23 question, you know, I'm -- there's
24 nothing I can do about it. Only the
25 prosecutor can do something about it,
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2 immunize you and go through all kinds of
3 legal proceedings I don't want to dwell
4 on.
5 Most people don't take the Fifth
6 Amendment, and I don't know anything
7 that you would take the Fifth Amendment
8 about. It is your mind that counts, not
9 mine. I want to get your point of view,
10 and I'll ask you if you have any
11 questions.
12 It is my understanding that you
13 are willing to proceed this afternoon
14 without a lawyer; am I correct?
15 MR. TAGLIAFERRO: Yes, you are.
16 MR. MACK: So, if that view of
17 yours should change, all you have to do
18 is tell me, and I'll give you another
19 short period of time to find a lawyer,
20 and you can come back.
21 I'm a direct person. I want to
22 get the information you have, and move
23 on to other people and other things.
24 It is my understanding that when
25 I told you that you could have the
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2 District Council and the Government
3 here, not one or the other, but both,
4 you determined, and you are willing, to
5 proceed -- again, I don't really much
6 care -- in their absence. In other
7 words, if you don't feel that you need a
8 lawyer from the District Council and a
9 lawyer from the Government sitting here
10 during this proceeding, for whatever
11 reasons you might have -- again I don't
12 care one way or the other -- but you're
13 willing to proceed without both of their
14 presence here today; is that correct?
15 MR. TAGLIAFERRO: Yes, that is.
16 MR. MACK: All right. Now, there
17 are a couple of other things that I want
18 to deal with that are important. Any
19 time you want to take a break for any
20 reason, just let me know, we'll take a
21 break. This handsome gentleman to my
22 right is a person I work with
23 frequently, and when he gets tired, we
24 take a break; and I try to keep an eye
25 on him, and he gives me little signals
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2 by looking at his watch. That will
3 happen from time to time.
4 The most important thing I've
5 said to you, and I think I've said this
6 to you as I did beforehand, is: Listen
7 to the question, answer it to the very
8 best of your ability, and you won't have
9 any problem with me. I'm gathering
10 facts. Again, I have no particular
11 direction that I'm going in, except that
12 I'm very interested in a job that you
13 were the shop steward on, and I'm going
14 to ask you questions about that. The
15 only way you can have a problem with me
16 is if you lie to me. Just provide the
17 information.
18 I've had shop stewards sitting
19 where you are, who have lied to me under
20 oath. One of them has already been
21 arrested. There will be others arrested
22 because they have lied. If they simply
23 told the truth from the beginning, the
24 likelihood is they would never have any
25 involvement with the criminal law at
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2 all.
3 Number two, something I should
4 have told you when I told you about the
5 Fifth Amendment. Tonight, the District
6 Council, because I have pushed them so
7 hard on this subject, is considering a
8 resolution that should a carpenter
9 assert the Fifth Amendment and deny
10 information either to me or to them,
11 that they would be sanctioned for doing
12 so; meaning their shop steward skills
13 suspended, maybe a fine, maybe some type
14 of other disability or punishment. They
15 haven't voted it. I have been pushing
16 them.
17 There's been a shop steward that
18 I've had particularly in mind that did
19 exercise the Fifth Amendment. I've said
20 to the District Council, you have no
21 right to permit -- you should not permit
22 the shop steward to deny you information
23 about wrongdoing on the jobsite simply
24 because he asserts the Fifth. They have
25 come around to the point of view that
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2 will be discussed tonight: What should
3 the sanction be for a shop steward
4 asserting the Fifth. My view is, you
5 have that right here. But you may not
6 have that right should the District
7 Council require you to appear before
8 them and testify.
9 I can't predict what the judge
10 would do, I can't predict what the
11 District Council would do, although I'm
12 frequently discussing topics with them.
13 One other thing that, in fairness
14 to you, I should tell you, and I tell
15 every person who appears before me: The
16 District Council has acted to terminate
17 my position. Their view is, that my
18 appointment was two years, and that two
19 years was up in early January, give or
20 take a week or so. And they have taken
21 the position that basically I should
22 cease my function; and that whatever
23 authority I have should end, and that
24 maybe I should have some time to finish
25 certain matters I'm working on, of which
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2 this is one. But their position is,
3 that my time should be over.
4 The judge, for whom I work, has
5 taken the view that he will consider
6 that point, and the Government has moved
7 to extend my term for, I think it is 18
8 months. The District Council's legal
9 papers are due Friday or next week, I'm
10 not sure which, in which they will be
11 arguing, I believe, to the judge, that I
12 should be terminated immediately;
13 whatever. Who knows? And the judge has
14 said until I rule, Mack, you keep going;
15 is what it boils down to.
16 So, in fairness to you, although
17 no one has done this, you could say,
18 well, listen, Mack, I really don't want
19 to spend time talking to you, because
20 who knows, you may not be around here in
21 a month or a week, what have you.
22 That's why I say that. I think that
23 would be a very risky course, because I
24 would immediately go to the judge and
25 have him issue an Order for you to
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2 appear here. And my own prediction
3 would be, the judge would say, until I
4 say Mack is gone, Mack is here.
5 So, but I mention it to you, if
6 only that you should know that, that
7 maybe I won't be around at a certain
8 time, maybe I'll never get to write the
9 report, maybe there will be a new guy
10 who will have to do it over again. I
11 think all of those, from the point of
12 view, I will stop, the judge will say
13 don't do any more; I think that's
14 unlikely. I tell you about it so you
15 can make up your mind and decide.
16 That's a long-winded
17 introduction. I give that introduction
18 to everybody. I'm not singling you out
19 for more of a warning or less of a
20 warning. I've said it exactly the same
21 way to other persons who sat where
22 you're sitting, under similar
23 circumstances.
24 That being said, is there
25 anything that you would like to ask
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2 about or any questions that you would
3 like to raise before we begin today?
4 MR. TAGLIAFERRO: One question.
5 If the judge does rule, be it tomorrow
6 or next week, that you cease to exist,
7 what's with this transcript?
8 MR. MACK: It is a little more
9 complex than I said. The judge is not
10 going to rule on this for weeks, because
11 the District Council's own legal papers
12 will not even be submitted, at the
13 earliest, the end of this week; and the
14 Government has another week to respond.
15 And then the judge will argue.
16 Let's assume, from one point of
17 view, that the judge agrees with the
18 District Council, and that: Mack,
19 you're history. I know the judge well,
20 and he said, Mr. Mack, do you have
21 anything to say? And I'll say, I have a
22 number of ongoing investigations as to
23 which I need the Court's direction as to
24 what the situation is, and I would like
25 to finish this. I've agreed to seal
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2 that, and I've made representations to
3 witnesses about what would happen and
4 what wouldn't happen. And it is my
5 view, I think it's almost a certainty,
6 that the judge would honor whatever I've
7 said and done.
8 I also think that I should tell
9 you this: The transcript is being taken
10 down here to permit the judge to look
11 beneath my recommendations, or to
12 second-guess me or to figure out, you
13 know, from the evidence, what my
14 question was, what your answer was.
15 But when I write the report about
16 Prince Carpentry at Houston and Chrystie
17 Street, the likelihood is that this
18 transcript will be an exhibit to the
19 report. Yours won't be the only
20 exhibit, but it will be exhibit.
21 I think I told you, if not, I
22 will tell you, I'm very likely to bring
23 Mr. Hanley down to talk to me about the
24 jobsite. I've had some people in. You
25 may know I had Mr. Anthony Arguelles in,
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2 to testify at length about this jobsite;
3 there will be others and there have been
4 others. I try not to telegraph in
5 general. If a witness tells me they
6 don't want the District Council present,
7 I don't tell the District Council, until
8 I file my report, who appeared and what
9 the transcripts are. Sometimes the
10 District Council is here, and I let them
11 ask questions. Generally, I honor the
12 request of the carpenter involved as to
13 who they want present.
14 That's the best answer I can give
15 you on that question. I don't know if
16 that answers your question. I tried to.
17 Anything else on your mind, sir?
18 MR. TAGLIAFERRO: Not at this
19 time.
20 MR. MACK: This gentleman over
21 here, Mr. Sobocienski, is an
22 investigator who works for me, as the
23 Independent Investigator. He is much
24 more factually prepared than I am on
25 almost everything, and he will or could
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2 very well be asking you questions at
3 some time during this proceeding, in
4 order to clarify an issue or bring an
5 issue up. So I invite him, and I will
6 ask him from time to time to
7 participate. If he thinks I've omitted
8 something, or there's some other topic
9 that should be raised, he certainly has
10 the power to raise that. Do you
11 understand that? Any questions?
12 MR. TAGLIAFERRO: No.
13 MR. MACK: Any reason why we
14 shouldn't proceed and get underway?
15 MR. TAGLIAFERRO: No, sir.
16 MR. MACK: Could I ask that the
17 witness be sworn, please?
18 S A L V A T O R E T A G L I A F E R R O ,
19 the witness herein, being first duly sworn by
20 Stewart Nissenbaum, a Notary Public of the
21 State of New York, was examined and testified
22 as follows:
23 EXAMINATION BY
24 MR. MACK:
25 Q Mr. Tagliaferro, I want to -- I'm
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1 Salvatore Tagliaferro 24
2 going to focus primarily today on a
3 particular jobsite at Houston and Chrystie
4 Street. Before I do so, there are a number
5 of preliminary matters that I always go
6 through.
7 I would like you to give me a
8 very brief description of how many years you
9 have been a carpenter, what your positions
10 are, an overview of your career as a
11 professional.
12 A I have been a carpenter since
13 1999 in Local 926. I have been a shop
14 steward since, I guess, I think it was maybe
15 2000, 2001. I'm currently the Vice President
16 of Local 926 in Brooklyn. I have been a
17 carpenter outside of the union, for over
18 twenty years.
19 Q What occasioned you to join the
20 union in 1999?
21 A I went to work for a contractor
22 who was nonunion; he went on a job, in the
23 middle of the job they organized the job, and
24 we had to become union, so I went down and
25 joined 926.
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1 Salvatore Tagliaferro 25
2 Q What was the name of the nonunion
3 contractor that you worked with, that was
4 organized?
5 A MLM.
6 Q Now, I'm going to, as is my
7 habit, so you're not surprised by these
8 questions which come near the end, I ask
9 everybody, when I basically go through the
10 topics that are of significance to me, I also
11 say, will ask, are there any things that you
12 think that I should be doing better, so you
13 can be thinking about that. Are there
14 matters of wrongdoing or corruption that you
15 have some general information about that you
16 would advise me about? Are there particular
17 matters which you think I should focus on
18 beyond what we talked about today?
19 You don't have to answer those
20 questions, but I make a habit of basically
21 raising that, so that any carpenter who
22 appears here, and I'm sure you would rather
23 be doing other things this evening, I don't
24 take that personally, the point I'm making
25 here is, I also -- maybe your desire to be
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1 Salvatore Tagliaferro 26
2 here is not the greatest.
3 A It is my wedding anniversary.
4 Q I could be more efficient about
5 it. I've dragged you here at a time that's
6 not best for you, but if there are things
7 that should come out of this that would
8 improve my service or the judge's
9 understanding, I certainly want to give you
10 an opportunity to say those things, if you
11 wish; it is an opportunity, and you may have
12 some opinions and you may have opinions and
13 not wish the express them. That's your
14 personal business; but I will give you the
15 opportunity. That will not come for a while.
16 Let me show you what has been
17 marked SAL-1, which is -- all it is, is an
18 effort by me to keep track of notices that
19 eventually result in your arrival in my
20 office.
21 Would you take a moment and make
22 certain that that is a copy of the document
23 furnished to you, which required you to
24 appear here as my guest, to testify?
25 A Yes, it is,
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1 Salvatore Tagliaferro 27
2 (Notice to appear marked Exhibit
3 SAL-1.)
4 Q You will notice in there, that
5 there is an obligation to bring with you
6 records concerning your job, your shop
7 stewardship job for Prince Carpentry at 229
8 Chrystie Street, New York, New York. You are
9 familiar with that job, I take it?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Have you brought me any records
12 that deal with that job?
13 A I have most of my steward
14 reports, not all; being on the jobsite, some
15 of them do get lost.
16 Q What else have you brought?
17 A I have personal notes that I've
18 taken on the jobsite.
19 Q Why don't you give those to me.
20 What I'm going to do, give me your personal
21 notes that you have which pertain to this
22 jobsite, I don't want you to tear anything
23 out. Just give me the book and we can mark
24 any pages of the book which pertain to 229
25 Chrystie.
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2 A There's two pages here, front and
3 back of both pages.
4 Q All right.
5 A This is a date book that I have
6 some notes written down in, just, for
7 example, December 29th, "turned in sheets,
8 got work card at Local 157, 608." Stuff like
9 that. Then just -- a guy left the job. Some
10 of it is -- I'm not a secretary.
11 Q You're talking about legibility?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What I want to do is make copies
14 of this so I can return the originals to you.
15 A It started on October -- Friday,
16 October 29th, and in here it ends on
17 Wednesday, January 5th, 2005.
18 Q Is there anything else that you
19 brought that may pertain to this jobsite,
20 sir?
21 A I have copies of some of the
22 requests.
23 Q Why don't you give those to me if
24 they pertain to the jobsite. What I'm going
25 to do is have them copied, marked as
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1 Salvatore Tagliaferro 29
2 exhibits, and you take the originals home.
3 MR. MACK: Don, these are the
4 pages.
5 These are the pages?
6 THE WITNESS: The pages that I
7 didn't give you, don't really have any
8 information on them other than --
9 Q Do they pertain to the site?
10 A They really don't.
11 MR. MACK: Can you manage all
12 this, sir?
13 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Yes, I can.
14 MR. MACK: I'm going to continue
15 while you're having those done; all
16 right, sir?
17 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Yes.
18 Q Now, what I would like to do
19 while they are being copied, is, I would like
20 to start from the beginning and to give me
21 some idea of how -- let me ask this question:
22 Had you ever worked for Prince Carpentry
23 before this job at Houston and Chrystie?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q Do you know who the principals,
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2 or who are the, shall we say, executives, I
3 don't know if that's the right term, or
4 managers at Prince Carpentry; did you know
5 before you arrived there?
6 A Before I arrived there, no, I
7 didn't.
8 Q How did you arrive; what were the
9 circumstances under which you first arrived
10 at this site at Houston and Chrystie?
11 A I got a called from the District
12 Council out-of-work list, I was dispatched to
13 the job to be shop steward. I got the call
14 on October 28th, approximately 3:45 p.m. It
15 was a 7:00 o'clock start for Friday morning,
16 so I went there, and I became shop steward.
17 That's how I got on the job.
18 Q Now, prior to your arrival at the
19 jobsite, did anyone give you any guidance,
20 advice, or instructions about why you were
21 going there, or what happened at that site
22 before you arrived there?
23 A Before I arrived there? No.
24 Q When you arrived, did you arrive
25 there at 7:00 o'clock that morning?
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2 A 6:15.
3 Q When you got to the site, what
4 did you see; what happened? Tell me what
5 happened.
6 A I went to see the foreman. He
7 told me he didn't need a shop steward, he had
8 a steward. Anthony Arguelles was the
9 steward.
10 Anthony comes out and says, "I
11 don't know what the hell is going on, I guess
12 you're the steward now." I called the Local
13 to find out what was going on. The business
14 agent at the local informed me that I would
15 be the steward, and he was removed.
16 Q Let me cover that. That's been
17 the subject of some discussion in the past.
18 When you arrived, when you say you talked to
19 the foreman, who did you talk to?
20 A I'll refer to him as Phil. His
21 name is Jean-Philippe, I can't pronounce his
22 last name. I refer to him as Phil.
23 Q So, when you first got to the
24 jobsite, you talked to the foreman. He said,
25 I already have a shop steward?
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2 A Yes.
3 Q Did he say anything else?
4 A Yes. I said, why are they
5 removing this shop steward? He said, I had a
6 shop steward for over a year that I was
7 playing hide and seek for a thousand a week,
8 I got a guy that works, and now they are
9 going to remove him. He says if he sees me
10 on the cell phone, he is going the fire me.
11 If I don't work, he is going to fire me.
12 I told him, I work. As far as
13 the cell phone, if you're going to fire me,
14 you better make sure that I'm not talking to
15 the District Council, because I'm their
16 representative; there will be times when I
17 have to talk to them. I said, when you fire
18 me, make sure, make sure you know what you're
19 doing; I will sue you for unlawful
20 termination.
21 He didn't understand what I was
22 saying; he shook his head.
23 Q Would you consider yourself, Mr.
24 Tagliaferro, given your experience,
25 knowledgeable of what the rights are of a
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1 Salvatore Tagliaferro 33
2 shop steward, as a union member in the City?
3 A Better than most.
4 Q When Phil talks about playing
5 hide and seek with a shop steward, what was
6 he talking about or referring to, if you
7 know?
8 A My speculation is, that he was
9 referring to a shop steward in particular
10 that doesn't really work, he wanders about
11 the job and/or leaves the job, and just tells
12 him that he was doing something else for the
13 union, or whatever the case may be.
14 Q Did you at that time, on this
15 initial date or at any subsequent time, learn
16 what Phil was referring to about the shop
17 steward he was playing hide and seek with?
18 A No. The guy just wouldn't work.
19 Q Who are we talking about here, if
20 you know?
21 A He never told me the guy's name.
22 Q Did he ever tell you the site?
23 A He never told me the site. I
24 could speculate it was the site, but that
25 would be speculation.
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2 Q Obviously this was something that
3 Phil, if I understand what you told me, he
4 had a shop steward in the person of Anthony
5 Arguelles who worked, and he had had a shop
6 steward who didn't work?
7 A From Local 608, he did tell me
8 that.
9 Q So we know it is a shop steward
10 from 608. Do we know what jobsite it was on?
11 A I know the site was on the West
12 Side. I believe it was the Upper West Side.
13 I can't recall the exact street number.
14 Q I think you also told me that you
15 had a conversation with Anthony Arguelles;
16 correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Had you ever met Anthony
19 Arguelles before this day, your first day on
20 the jobsite?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Now, as best you can remember,
23 what did you say to Anthony Arguelles, and
24 what did he say to you?
25 A He told me that he was the shop
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2 steward. I said I was sent here to be the
3 shop steward. He goes, well, I don't know.
4 I says, the Local just told me that I'm the
5 shop steward. I said, so, you know, what do
6 you go down as, go down as company or Local?
7 He says, I don't care what you
8 put me down as, call the Local; let them
9 figure it out.
10 Later I found out that he was
11 removed by the District Council because they
12 felt that he had cheated with his position to
13 get the position as the shop steward. That's
14 why he kind of resented me.
15 Q In the early stage, was there any
16 resistance by him to prevent you from doing
17 your duties as shop steward, once you got to
18 the site?
19 A No, I wouldn't say that.
20 Q Did he explain to you, either
21 then or later, what his side of this dispute
22 or question was, what Anthony Arguelles's
23 side was?
24 A Yes, he did explain it.
25 Q What did he say to you?
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2 A He said that he was a steward
3 with them once before, up in the Bloomberg
4 building, if I'm not mistaken, and that the
5 foreman came to him and told him he was going
6 to get laid off. So he called up, put his
7 name on the out-of-work list. Later on that
8 day, they told him, you jumped the gun; it is
9 going to be a few more days. He already put
10 his name on the out-of-work list, so he
11 didn't take his name back off. And then next
12 thing he knows, he got called to go down here
13 on this job.
14 Q He got called by who>?
15 A He didn't say. Then he got the
16 call, which it's commonly referred to, when
17 you get a call, you get a call to go to work.
18 Q Is that call coming from the
19 out-of-work list, or is that call coming
20 from --
21 A He never relayed that message; he
22 never told me who gave him the call.
23 Q Did he tell you at all about why
24 the -- from his perspective, what the
25 District Council was doing, or why they
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2 removed him or -- what was the District
3 Council's view of this subject?
4 A Well, to quote him, no
5 disrespect, "the cocksucker Mack noticed that
6 I got the call out of turn, and the District
7 Council forced Billy to remove me from the
8 job." That was a quote. I'm not calling you
9 a cocksucker.
10 Q You would have a long list.
11 A I'm just quoting what was said.
12 I gave you the truth, the whole truth, and
13 nothing but the truth.
14 Q That's what I'm asking for. I
15 take the good with the bad. It wouldn't be
16 the first time that term has been used to
17 describe me.
18 MR. MACK: Let's go off the
19 record so you can take the phone call.
20 (Pause.)
21 MR. MACK: Let's go back on the
22 record. Have you had an opportunity to
23 deal with your telephone call?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
25 Q Let's continue. I just should
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1 Salvatore Tagliaferro 38
2 tell you, I'm not going to use the term that
3 Mr. Arguelles used to describe me, because no
4 use my repeating it.
5 I have no authority to remove. I
6 have no authority to remove a shop steward or
7 anyone else on any jobsite. I would
8 encourage you -- I actually had a
9 conversation with Mr. Arguelles on this
10 topic, although he didn't fully recount his
11 words at the time. I basically told him,
12 which is the fact, I have no authority to
13 remove or take any disciplinary action
14 against any carpenter or anyone, under the
15 terms of the Order.
16 Putting that aside, I'm just
17 interested in what was said. Was there
18 anything further that he said about why he
19 was removed, or whether he was going to fight
20 it, or what his side was, or anything of that
21 nature?
22 A It is his belief, my belief, and
23 90 percent of carpenters' belief, that the
24 way the contract is written right now,
25 contractors having the right to request men,
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1 Salvatore Tagliaferro 39
2 there's no way for us to make a living fair
3 and square, and what is he guilty of? Trying
4 to feed his family. I mean, is that wrong?
5 Q In other words, by trying to find
6 a way that he could continue his work for
7 Prince, although at another site, he was
8 doing, in a sense, what was best for his
9 family, to maintain his work, is what it
10 boils down to. Is that what you're telling
11 me?
12 A Trying to keep his own
13 employment.
14 Q You said a couple of things which
15 are of interest to me and maybe to the Court.
16 Lay out briefly what you were referring to
17 when you say the way the request system
18 works. I have a pretty good idea, because
19 I've written a report on that topic. I am
20 ignorant of your opinion, and why, Mr.
21 Tagliaferro. So please take just a moment
22 and state it clearly, so when the judge reads
23 your answer, he knows why you feel the way
24 you do.
25 A In our contract, it says that 50
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1 Salvatore Tagliaferro 40
2 percent of the men come from the out-of-work
3 list and 50 percent come from the company.
4 But it also says if you're an association
5 contractor, you could request 50 percent --
6 you could request everybody on the job, with
7 the exception of the shop steward, as long as
8 they are on the out-of-work list.
9 So what people are doing,
10 contractors are doing, and members are doing,
11 is, they are working, calling up at 1:30 in
12 the afternoon, saying, I got laid off, when,
13 in fact, they didn't get laid off, and then
14 tomorrow going to the next jobsite off the
15 request, saying they are requested.
16 Now they can't be coming from the
17 out-of-work list. Their 50, which is
18 supposed to be union guys, are now being
19 filled by the company. So right now, and
20 this is a fact, that our out-of-work list
21 today is higher than it ever has been before
22 in the history of the union in New York City.
23 Guys are out of work, some guys are out of
24 work seven, eight months, or longer. I mean,
25 that's ridiculous.
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2 Q I don't know whether you have
3 read the report to Judge Haight, written by
4 the Independent Investigator staff, or not,
5 but you might be interested in reading it,
6 because my conclusion is pretty much on all
7 fours for exactly that. I appreciate you
8 expressing your opinion on the subject.
9 One of the things that we will be
10 spending some time on this evening, I will
11 try to be efficient, given this is your
12 anniversary, is, how did people get to this
13 job, and what was your experience, and how
14 does the out-of-work list work, and how do
15 people end up on the jobsite.
16 Now, let me ask you this
17 question, to start with: Were there any
18 carpenters who worked on the jobsite, that
19 you knew about when you were there, that you
20 didn't record accurately the hours they spent
21 on the job?
22 A No. No, sir.
23 Q So I should rely on your shop
24 steward reports as being an accurate, within
25 reason, description of who was on the jobsite
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1 Salvatore Tagliaferro 42
2 and the hours they worked there. Would that
3 be fair?
4 A To the best of my ability, they
5 are 100 percent accurate, if I signed them.
6 Q Okay.
7 A I want to emphasize, if I signed
8 them.
9 Q We are going to get to a period
10 of time that you didn't sign them; and that's
11 certainly on my list of questions to ask you.
12 Don't think that I'm omitting that; I just
13 want to start from the proposition, because
14 there have been a number of shop stewards who
15 cannot answer that question as precisely and
16 as honestly as you just did. I don't mean to
17 insult you. I simply want to make sure that
18 I can start from the proposition that what's
19 on your shop steward report, I can go to the
20 bank on, or I can rely on, or whatever it is
21 in terms of who was there and the number of
22 hours they were there; is that correct?
23 A That's correct.
24 Can I correct one thing?
25 Q Sure.
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2 A In some instances, the foreman
3 would send people home half a day, or ask
4 people to leave. I still put them down as
5 seven hours, because it says in our contract
6 that no carpenter shall be dispatched for
7 less than seven hours. The foreman kind of
8 disagreed with me on that. The way I read
9 the contract, and I told him, I'm putting it
10 down as seven hours.
11 Whether he paid them for seven
12 hours or not, that's out of my hands; I have
13 no way of checking that. If they were on the
14 job, they would be down for two hours or
15 seven hours, and I don't believe I put
16 anybody down for two. If there's something
17 there less than seven hours, they came and
18 voluntarily told me they wanted to leave;
19 that's why he got paid for less than seven
20 hours.
21 Q Were there people who left early,
22 let's say, left, you know, over an hour and a
23 half or over two hours early, and still were
24 on your shop steward report?
25 A There was people that the foreman
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2 would tell to leave, or whatever the case
3 was, he wasn't happy with them. Some people
4 he would lay off at 12:00 o'clock, you know,
5 one guy he laid off at 1:00 o'clock, I said
6 that guy has to be paid for seven hours.
7 Some people left; I don't know why he said
8 this guy had to leave early. I said, I'm
9 putting him down for seven hours. I can't
10 recall who, when, and why they left. I just
11 know that that did happen over the period of
12 time, on a few occasions.
13 And as I said before, according
14 to the contract, the way it is written, no
15 contractor shall be -- no carpenter shall be
16 dispatched for less than seven hours. So my
17 interpretation of that is, if the guy comes
18 to work, unless he voluntarily says, I have
19 to leave -- one guy I believe I have down for
20 five and a half hours because he got sick and
21 he said, listen, I got to leave; he threw up,
22 I got to leave. He left after five and a
23 half hours, so I put him down for five and a
24 half because he voluntarily left the jobsite.
25 It would be illegal and not right
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2 for me to, for a contractor, to pay a guy for
3 time on the job that he wasn't on the job.
4 Q Were there any people recorded on
5 your shop steward reports who, in fact, did
6 not work, who basically, I won't say didn't
7 show, you've told me that you wouldn't put
8 somebody down who didn't actually go to the
9 jobsite and be there; correct?
10 A Correct.
11 Q Were there any people who came to
12 the jobsite, on your shop steward reports,
13 who came and basically sat around in the sun
14 or went sunbathing?
15 A Not for Prince.
16 Q In a few moments, I will get your
17 shop steward reports, the copies that you
18 brought, but in the meanwhile, I want to ask
19 you some specific questions. Could you
20 generally tell me how workers came to your
21 jobsite, how they came to be employed as
22 carpenters under your stewardship, in
23 general?
24 A I would say most of them were
25 company requests or company men. Other than
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2 myself, no one name sticks out, of a
3 journeyman that came off the out-of-work
4 list. There may have been, but I don't
5 recollect any journeyman coming directly from
6 the out-of-work list.
7 Q So that is something that I
8 always ask about. Was there a situation in
9 which, what we call a pure, a pure is an
10 individual sitting on the out-of-work list,
11 has not worked for Prince before, is truly
12 unemployed, and simply comes off because of
13 the need for a union person to be pulled off?
14 A I would say almost all, with a
15 couple of exceptions, apprentices, they are
16 pure. Most of the apprentices, again it
17 might have been one or two, that weren't pure
18 apprentices, but most of the apprentices came
19 directly off the out-of-work list.
20 I would also state that we've
21 called for probably three times the amount of
22 apprentices than showed up. Most apprentices
23 didn't show up.
24 Q What about mechanics, or a
25 journeyman; was there any situation where you
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1 Salvatore Tagliaferro 47
2 can remember, by name, when they were a pure
3 dispatch situation, rather than a request for
4 a company man?
5 A If you told me there was one, I'd
6 be surprised.
7 Q Is that customary, to your
8 experience at other sites, that association
9 members basically will not really have any
10 pure journeyman dispatches?
11 A Yes, sir; unfortunately.
12 Q Has this issue, which in fact
13 I've written on and which I feel strongly
14 about, ever been raised at union meetings, or
15 raised in the context of discussion for
16 change?
17 A Every meeting.
18 Q What happens?
19 A And my President told us,
20 unfortunately the way the District Council
21 has the contract written right now, he
22 doesn't see how they would be able to change
23 that. Although I want to say that he was
24 opposed to that requesting also; it is my
25 belief he's opposed to it, because we would
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2 have to give them something. Why would the
3 contractor want to take that out of the
4 contract; because next year the contract is
5 up, and we all feel that that has to be
6 removed from the contract, that right. He
7 doesn't see how it could possibly be done.
8 Q Who is your President; who are
9 you talking about?
10 A Mr. Sal Zarzana.
11 Q Are you aware, yourself, Mr.
12 Tagliaferro, or based upon what you've heard
13 from others, as to how this provision got
14 into the contract?
15 A Yeah, I would think -- I don't
16 know how it exactly got in, but I would
17 speculate Mr. Ford and Mr. Thomason wanted to
18 get the carpenters more money in their wages;
19 so in exchange for money, we gave up our
20 jobs.
21 Q Has that ever been put to you?
22 Is that your speculation, based upon your own
23 experience as an experienced professional, or
24 has anyone ever said that to you as an
25 explanation?
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2 A That was the explanation that was
3 given on the floor at out meetings on several
4 different occasions, by delegates, other
5 trustees to the Local, other Executive Board
6 members, other business agents, and other
7 rank and file members, as myself.
8 Q To your knowledge, because I'm
9 always interested in, to your knowledge, has
10 the fact that the Independent Investigator
11 has written a report on this subject, almost
12 exactly very critical of it, has that ever
13 come to the attention of members at 926?
14 A Of course. The report was there.
15 Sal is also a delegate, besides being our
16 President. And he, I would say, is the most
17 educated and the most knowledgeable rank and
18 file member of any of the Locals. He affords
19 us all the knowledge of the operations of the
20 Council and any reports that are handed down
21 to him through the delegate body.
22 Q Do you know whether or not the
23 reports of the Independent Investigator have
24 been made available to Mr. Zarzana?
25 A I don't know of one that was made
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1 Salvatore Tagliaferro 50
2 available to him.
3 Q Because you should tell him, and,
4 you know, that any report, and the judge has
5 made this point, that any report of the
6 Independent Investigator that the judge has
7 accepted for filing, is a public document and
8 available here, and calls for reproduction.
9 If you want a copy, or Mr. Zarzana wants a
10 copy of any report made public, you can read
11 it here, or you can get a copy of it, at
12 cost.
13 A Thank you. I didn't know that.
14 Q You should tell Mr. Zarzana that.
15 The judge is very focused on ensuring the
16 rank and file and the leadership have
17 available to them, all the papers that are
18 filed with the Court, which include my
19 reports.
20 And in addition to that, just for
21 your own information, it is not required
22 reading, the Government's position on the
23 motion on termination is also available
24 within the District Council files, their
25 paper on my termination, that is also a
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2 public record, when that happens. Those may
3 be of value or may not be. It is entirely up
4 to you and Mr. Zarzana as to whether they
5 wish to read them, or he wishes to read them
6 or not. I know the judge wants rank and file
7 and the members and leaders aware of what the
8 Court is doing and what his agents are doing.
9 The District Council has no
10 ability, no right to foreclose any carpenter,
11 any member, from knowing what the Court is
12 doing, or the Court's agents are doing; and
13 I'm one of the Court's agents. I pass that
14 on for your own information.
15 Let me proceed. I want to ask
16 for your experience, when you got to the site
17 and you had heard from Phil and you had heard
18 from Mr. Arguelles, then what did you do on
19 the site, initially, in order to act as
20 steward. Did you walk the site, meet the
21 people there? What were your activities?
22 A I would take a daily count of
23 every person on the jobsite; every carpenter.
24 Because some carpenters come right to the --
25 would go right to their work station, more or
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2 less.
3 I would walk the floor, the whole
4 building, 14 floors at the time, and check to
5 see who was there, and check everybody's card
6 to make sure they were current and
7 up-to-date.
8 Then when I was done with that,
9 usually by 8:15, I would put on my tool belt
10 and go to my work assignment.
11 And then I would blow the whistle
12 for break, which, in my opinion, wasn't
13 really very effective, being that it is 14
14 stories and nobody could hear it.
15 Q Right.
16 A I made sure to convey to every
17 member that they have a right to take a
18 break, and that they should take that break.
19 I told everybody that they have to stop for
20 lunch; if they work through lunch, they have
21 to let me know that they are working through
22 lunch.
23 I made sure that the jobsite was
24 safe. I made sure that they had bathrooms,
25 what was necessary; and I worked, performed
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1 Salvatore Tagliaferro 53
2 my duty as a carpenter.
3 Q Let me ask you this: During the
4 course of your stewardship of this jobsite,
5 in your opinion, were you ever asked by
6 either Phil or some representative of Prince,
7 to ask your carpenters to undertake some
8 activity that, in your opinion, was not
9 consistent with the Collective Bargaining
10 Agreement?
11 A No.
12 Q So did you find any effort or
13 pressure by Prince, to force any of your
14 journeymen or apprentices to do anything
15 which was either improper or not consistent
16 with the Collective Bargaining Agreement?
17 A I would have to say -- I don't
18 know if they forced -- I don't think, in my
19 opinion, the guys were starting or going to
20 the work stations before they should have,
21 because it says in the Collective Bargaining
22 Agreement that work is to start at the
23 shanty; therefore, the way I read it, they
24 should have left the shanty at 7:00 o'clock,
25 and most members, although I told them
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1 Salvatore Tagliaferro 54
2 countless times that they are supposed to
3 start at 7:00, they would leave about 10, 15,
4 20 minutes early. It became fruitless,
5 seemed like I was screaming at the wind.
6 Unfortunately being that they were all, quote
7 unquote, company guys --
8 Q Meaning that they wanted to
9 maintain that relationship to Prince, so they
10 would be continued to be requested and hired
11 on this site, as well as other sites;
12 correct?
13 A Correct.
14 Q They were willing to leave the
15 shanty early, in order to go to where their
16 work station was?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Were there any other requests by
19 Prince, or representatives of Prince, to bend
20 or to change work rules, or to perform their
21 service in some way that you believed was
22 inconsistent with the Collective Bargaining
23 Agreement?
24 A No.
25 Q Were there any other work
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2 pressures or methods, or directions given
3 during the course of your stewardship there,
4 which, in your opinion, was, and whether it
5 is consistent with the Collective Bargaining
6 Agreement or not, improper or unethical,
7 wrongful, corrupt; any word you want to use?
8 A I think the foreman screened it a
9 lot. In my definition and my words,
10 over-abusive in some instances; I believe
11 Phil, as a foreman, is a screamer; he is not
12 really a foreman.
13 Q Can you give examples of that
14 situation, if you would?
15 A One example is, if you give me a
16 minute, I'll look for a date. I've got one
17 person on the job unloading a truck -- two
18 people were unloading a truck, and the truck
19 driver moved -- that day was Wednesday,
20 December 8th.
21 Q Bear with me. You're looking at
22 something, and I wanted to be able to capture
23 it.
24 A Wednesday, December 8th.
25 Q Let me find what is the right
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2 exhibit number.
3 A It would be in there.
4 Q We've given this the exhibit
5 number, SAL-3.
6 (Document, notes by Mr.
7 Tagliaferro, marked Exhibit SAL-3.)
8 Q Let me turn to the date that you
9 are looking at. State for me again which
10 date it is.
11 A Wednesday, December 8th.
12 Q I'm looking at it now. Just tell
13 me what you've written. That's in your
14 writing?
15 A That is in my writing, and the
16 irony of this date is, when I'm on the train
17 coming back from the Local, as is my
18 customary fashion, I write down notes of what
19 happened at the Local just to remind myself.
20 I went into the Local that morning and I told
21 Billy Hanley, that I think Phil is being a
22 little abusive towards the men.
23 Q Should I be looking at December
24 8?
25 A Yes.
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2 Q Let me read that to myself.
3 (Pause.)
4 Q "Turned in sheets, told Bill,"
5 and that's Bill Hanley?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Or Billy. "Phil is abusing men
8 and cheating them out of 10 or 15 minutes a
9 day. I went" --
10 A "Went over the 50/50."
11 Q -- "went over the 50/50. He" --
12 Who is the "he"? "He changed four guys."
13 A I had four guys down as company
14 and/or union, where he said I was mistaken.
15 If I had them down as company it should have
16 been union; if I had them down as union it
17 should have been company.
18 Q Do you remember who they were?
19 A No, I would have to go back to
20 the sheet and look at that.
21 Q We are going to do that. I want
22 to make sure I understand whatever changes.
23 "Phil called" --
24 A That's the irony, I wrote that on
25 the train, then I came back to the job, it
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2 was about 8:15. And about 9:00 o'clock this
3 next incident which happened -- 9:30, it was,
4 I'm sorry, because I got the time there, at
5 9:30, Augustine and Robert O'Driscoll were
6 unloading the truck. The apprentice, Robert
7 O'Driscoll, told the truck driver to move.
8 Phil started to scream at them, calling them
9 idiots, "why did you tell the guy to move.
10 Augustine respectfully went to Phil and said:
11 "Listen, I'm a man, please treat me as such,
12 and don't call me a name."
13 Q What name was he being called;
14 idiot?
15 A Yes, idiot. It was an F'ing
16 idiot. He said, please don't call me that
17 name. It was the second time that Phil was
18 personally abusive towards him in my
19 presence.
20 Q And Augustine, tell me, is
21 Augustine's name, but he is on your shop
22 steward report?
23 A I think he is a 926 member. He
24 was put on the job through the coalition.
25 Q We are going to have to go into
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2 that. Maybe I'll reserve the coalition
3 questions for one block, because we are going
4 to get there. Let's just deal with Phil's
5 conduct here. Just take me through this
6 incident.
7 Augustine confronted him in a
8 respectful manner. So Phil fired him, is
9 that what that says there?
10 A Yes.
11 Q So what happened then?
12 A Phil fired him. They got into an
13 argument and Phil fired him and told him: I
14 don't got to show you respect, I just got to
15 pay you; whatever the case was. I intervened
16 almost immediately, as quickly as possible,
17 and I explained to Phil that we are all
18 members under the constitution, you're
19 violating the constitution on two grounds:
20 You're causing dissent amongst the
21 membership; and secondly, you're being
22 disrespectful towards a brother.
23 And I explained to him that it is
24 in the constitution, and he's violating the
25 constitution. And he just looked at me and
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2 says: Are you a lawyer or a carpenter? I
3 said, well, I guess in your case, I have to
4 be both, because you don't know how to read
5 the constitution.
6 Q Did Augustine --
7 A He was fired, terminated. He
8 went to the Local to try to bring him up on
9 charges. The Local gave him a hard time.
10 Q The Local gave Augustine a hard
11 time?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Why?
14 A They felt it was stupid to bring
15 up a gay on charges for calling him an idiot.
16 Q Did you get involved after that?
17 A Danny DeMorato called me up and
18 said, get down here; he wants to talk to me.
19 I went to the Local, Billy Hanley
20 yelled at me, who is educating this guy? I
21 said, in our Local, we educate our men. The
22 guy asked for a copy of the constitution, I
23 had the secretary give him a copy of the
24 constitution. I told him to read it. He
25 read it. He still felt he wanted to bring
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2 the guy up on charges. I felt he should have
3 brought the guy up on charges, not
4 necessarily for calling him an idiot; just
5 for being abusive and disrespectful.
6 Q What was Mr. Hanley's reaction to
7 your position here?
8 A He was unhappy with me.
9 Q I'm a direct individual, and, you
10 know, I will say I'm not -- I have no
11 particular opinion, one way or the other,
12 about Bill Hanley; I've talk to him many
13 times. But certainly his conduct on that
14 jobsite is the subject of my inquiry.
15 I want to know what his position
16 was. What did he say to you and what was the
17 substance of his communication with you on
18 this subject of Augustine?
19 A He thought it was frivolous. He
20 thought it was ridiculous that I would
21 educate the guy and tell the guy that he has
22 a right, this is customary for people to be
23 called idiots. It is different if he was
24 called a racial slur; but that wasn't the
25 case.
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2 My position to Billy was, Bill,
3 if the guy walked on the floor and there was
4 ten people there, and said, you guys are a
5 bunch of idiots, I wouldn't take offense.
6 But when you single one person out and call
7 one person an idiot, that is disrespectful;
8 and I don't believe we should be treating
9 each other like that. I don't think this is
10 a position that we should be arguing over.
11 This is a case for the Council. Let the guy
12 file the charges; let the Council figure out
13 if it's merited as charges or not. If it's
14 not, throw it out; if it is, go forth.
15 Q What was Mr. Hanley's view of
16 that suggestion?
17 A Again, he was unhappy with my
18 position.
19 Before I say the next statement,
20 I want to go on record saying I think Billy
21 is a very good business agent. He
22 probably -- probably one of the best we have
23 out there in this union right now. But he's
24 also schizophrenic.
25 Q What does that mean?
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2 A One minute he's the nicest guy in
3 the world; the next minute he doesn't know
4 you, and he's just nuts; it is like he's like
5 Jekyll and Hyde.
6 Q Was it Hyde's side or Jekyll's
7 side evident?
8 A If Jekyll was the bad side, I
9 think it was Jekyll.
10 Q Let me ask you a couple of
11 questions here about SAL-3. I don't want --
12 we copied this. Say to me again the
13 circumstances under which you would write in
14 SAL-3 when you're writing things down. Are
15 these things what you write down, what is the
16 criteria for writing things down in SAL-3?
17 A These are things that I think are
18 noteworthy, things that I think that I would
19 want to remember, trying to refresh my
20 memory. I believe that -- I'm always
21 concerned with not dotting my "i's" and
22 crossing my "t's", because of one of the
23 conversations that I heard in the Local where
24 they said, and I quote, "fuck the scumbag
25 steward, leave him out to dry." I don't want
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2 to be one of those scumbag stewards who is
3 left out to dry, so I try to cover myself by
4 having things in writing; this way when
5 something is said and it becomes a question
6 of whether he said or she said and I'm the
7 "he," and the business agent is the "she,"
8 they always seem to take the business agent's
9 side, I have something in documentation
10 written down. I think it would be an -- an
11 independent person might put more weight into
12 what I'm saying because I have something
13 based off of it.
14 Q Let me commend you. I'm trying
15 to get the business agents to do that
16 themselves. You make an effort when you
17 write down here in SAL-3, to record what is
18 said as you heard it, and what your
19 impressions are. Would that be fair?
20 A Yes. I sum it up. I sum up most
21 of it, because, you know, otherwise SAL-3
22 would be as thick as the encyclopedia.
23 Q SAL-3 is written in your writing
24 and is an effort by you to accurately sum up
25 or record what happened and what was said.
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2 Would that be fair?
3 A Yes, that would be fair.
4 Q Let me ask you about a couple of
5 things here that are in this exhibit. "Billy
6 wanted to know last time I spoke to Don."
7 A Oh, that's Thursday --
8 Q December 9?
9 A Right.
10 Q What was that about?
11 A Because Don --
12 Q Our Don, sitting with us here
13 right now?
14 A Yes. -- had called me, I believe
15 it may have been a week, two weeks, may have
16 just been a couple of days after I had
17 arrived on the job, and told me, made me
18 aware that he was aware that I was on the
19 job; which in turn really prompted me to
20 write this down to make sure, because I felt
21 at that point, after one steward bein