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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
90 CIV 5722
-against- (CSH)
DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED
BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND
JOINERS OF AMERICA, et.al.,
Defendants.
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Independent Investigator Deposition
December 1, 2004
4:20 o'clock p.m.
DEPOSITION of RONALD RAWALD, taken by
the Independent Investigator, Walter Mack, Esq.,
pursuant to letter subpoena, at the offices of
Doar, Rieck & Mack, Esqs., 217 Broadway, 7th
Floor, New York, New York 10007-2911, before
Stewart Nissenbaum, a Shorthand Reporter and
Notary Public of the State of New York.
TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
305 Madison Avenue 142 Willis Avenue
Suite 449 P.O. BOX 347
New York, N.Y. 10165 Mineola, N.Y. 11501
(212)349-9692 (516)741-5235
(212) 349-9692 TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY (516) 741-5235
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A P P E A R A N C E S :
2
DOAR RIECK & MACK, ESQS.
3 217 Broadway, 7th Floor
New York, New York 10007-2911
4
BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.
5 Independent Investigator
6
O'DWYER & BERNSTEIN, ESQS.
7 Attorneys for District Council
52 Duane Street
8 New York, New York 10007
9 BY: GARY SILVERMAN, ESQ.
10
11 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
U.S. Attorney's Office
12 Southern District of New York
86 Chambers Street
13 New York, New York 10007
14 BY: EDWARD SCARVALONE, ESQ,
Assistant U.S. Attorney
15
16 DINO J. LOMBARDI, ESQ.
Attorney for Witness
17 52 Duane Street
New York, New York 10007
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* * *
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2 MR. MACK: Let's open the record.
3 Mr. Rawald, let me introduce
4 myself. As I'm sure you are aware, my
5 name is Walter Mack, and I am the
6 Independent Investigator appointed by
7 Judge Haight to fulfill certain roles
8 and obligations set forth in an Order,
9 which is a public Order, and I was
10 appointed with the consent of the
11 District Council as well as the U.S.
12 Attorney's Office in the Civil Division,
13 in order to overlook a number of things,
14 the corruption program, assess it, but
15 also hiring and the use of job referral
16 lists.
17 In furtherance of that, I have
18 certain powers, one of which is to
19 require carpenters to appear before me
20 and testify under oath about matters
21 that have come to my attention. You
22 have been the subject of a number of
23 anonymous complaints about certain
24 aspects of your past, and you, as many
25 other individuals, have appeared before
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2 me and are testifying, like this, when I
3 felt it important to make inquiry about
4 certain subjects, things of that nature.
5 Because of those complaints and
6 because of my decision, you received a
7 notice which required your appearance at
8 some time, and I'm going to show you a
9 copy of that. You're ably represented
10 here by Mr. Lombardi, but I'm the person
11 of the side of setting forth practices
12 and procedures in as clear a way as I
13 can, so that if you have questions or
14 anything you wish to ask me, you can ask
15 me directly or have the benefit of Mr.
16 Lombardi's advice and experience.
17 (Notice to appear marked Exhibit
18 RR-1.)
19 MR. MACK: Let me show you what
20 has been marked as RR-1, and that symbol
21 and little sheet has absolutely no
22 significance, other than permitting me
23 to keep track of the pieces of paper
24 that are here. And I have given one to
25 your counsel; here is another one for
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2 you to keep. But my question is, is
3 that a copy of the document which you
4 received, which basically asks for your
5 appearance, to appear before me?
6 MR. RAWALD: Yes, sir.
7 MR. MACK: So, I have the
8 authority to require carpenters to
9 appear. And as set forth in that
10 document, you have the right to be
11 represented by counsel, if you wish, and
12 you are appearing today with Mr. Dino
13 Lombardi, who has appeared on other
14 occasions, representing carpenters. But
15 I want to make certain that he is in
16 fact your chosen legal counsel for
17 today's event.
18 MR. RAWALD: Yes, he is.
19 MR. MACK: Okay. Now, you have a
20 whole series of rights and obligations
21 that I want to go through, and it is
22 important that I do so, so I would like
23 you to listen carefully. And if at any
24 time today, whether now or as we proceed
25 through the evening, you have a question
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2 that you would like to discuss with your
3 counsel, all you have to do is speak to
4 me or speak to him, and you will be
5 excused and given an opportunity to talk
6 to him outside of the room so that you
7 have a private ability to make inquiry
8 and get the benefit of his advice.
9 Actually, it is my preference
10 that carpenters have counsel with them,
11 because, in many respects, some of the
12 concepts that I talk about, it is
13 beneficial to have an attorney
14 explaining them, too, who is your
15 attorney, and he is the only person in
16 the room -- eventually there will be
17 someone from the District Council here,
18 and that person also is an attorney for
19 the District Council, but that person
20 does not represent you, and have the
21 obligation to be concerned about you,
22 legally. Only one person in this room
23 has the legal obligation to give you the
24 best legal advice that's possible, and
25 that is Mr. Lombardi, although you may
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2 wish to discuss matters with, whether
3 it's Mr. Rothman or Mr. Silverman,
4 whoever is going to appear; you have
5 that right as well.
6 I'll try today, as best I can, to
7 make sure that if you have a question or
8 you need to get the benefit of advice of
9 counsel, that you have that opportunity.
10 So, I would add to that, if any
11 of my questions are unclear to you, or
12 there is something that you wish to
13 raise or question, I encourage you to do
14 so.
15 Although this is a semi-formal
16 proceeding, and I do have a stenographer
17 who is here to take down what is said
18 and what everybody says. It is a pretty
19 routine practice. There have been many
20 individuals who were here, and my
21 purpose is to gather facts which will
22 allow me to write a report to the judge
23 on matters which I think the judge
24 should be aware of.
25 I am not a prosecutor, I have,
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2 really, no disciplinary authority of any
3 kind. What has been clear to me in the
4 time that I have been here, I'm really
5 an investigator, designed to find out
6 what accurate facts are. The
7 consequences of those facts and their
8 significance with respect to the
9 carpenter involved or to the District
10 Council, is not for me to resolve. My
11 job is to gather facts and present them
12 in a fair way so the parties can decide
13 whether they have any significance.
14 The most important thing that I
15 will say to you tonight, which has been
16 my very strong wish throughout my time
17 as Independent Investigator, that the
18 witness, you, basically shortly you will
19 be under oath, that you honor your oath.
20 There have been carpenters who have
21 appeared who have chosen not to testify
22 accurately, and have sought to either
23 provide incorrect information or
24 incomplete information, despite my best
25 efforts. I'm not looking to punish or
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2 sanction any individual, I'm looking to
3 find facts and understand their
4 significance. Those particular people,
5 and at least in one case an individual
6 chose to lie and deceive, and as a
7 result of that, has ended up with
8 significant problems. Those problems
9 can be as simple as lying under oath or
10 seeking to prevent me from finding out
11 the truth. Because I am an agent of the
12 Court, I'm entitled, just the same way
13 the judge would be, to hearing the truth
14 from the individuals who are asked to
15 testify.
16 So by far the most important
17 thing I have to say as part of my
18 general introduction is, answer the
19 questions consistently with your oath,
20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
21 but the truth. I'm sure your lawyer has
22 said that as well, but it is a very
23 important aspect of my inquiry.
24 Something else which I think is
25 important, since this is not a
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2 proceeding of the District Council, this
3 is in essence a proceeding by an agent
4 of the Court, you have certain rights
5 that you would not have at the District
6 Council. One of them is, to assert a
7 Fifth Amendment privilege. And by that
8 I mean, if I ask you a question which a
9 truthful answer to that question would
10 tend to incriminate you, in the judgment
11 of yourself and that of your counsel,
12 you can refuse to answer that question
13 and you can assert the Fifth Amendment
14 and not answer it.
15 I would suggest to you, since you
16 have learned counsel with you, who is, I
17 know, an expert in the Fifth Amendment,
18 you should feel free to inquire whether
19 or not there is an appropriate time for
20 you to assert it. That is one of the
21 great benefits of having an experienced
22 lawyer with you, because there are times
23 when you can assert it, and there are
24 times when you shouldn't assert it.
25 Those, sometimes, are difficult
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2 questions and answers.
3 But a couple of things that you
4 should be aware of: If you assert the
5 Fifth Amendment on a subject, because
6 this is not a criminal proceeding, and
7 I'm not a criminal prosecutor, I have
8 the right to draw an inference from
9 that. I have the right to say, well,
10 the reason he's not answering that
11 question is because all the evidence
12 that I have that deals with that
13 subject, he is not contesting it, or he
14 is not answering it, providing the
15 information that would help me to assess
16 it. So I can conclude that this other
17 evidence is valid and valuable.
18 That is a discretionary subject
19 by me, it is called drawing an
20 inference, it is something that I can do
21 or not do; I actually have never done it
22 so far, because generally I find out
23 what the facts are, one way or the
24 other. But, it does lead me, if you
25 assert the Fifth Amendment, to draw
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2 certain conclusions from that assertion.
3 That's another reason why you should
4 consider that very carefully.
5 As Mr. Lombardi knows directly,
6 that if a witness asserts the Fifth
7 Amendment, it is almost absolutely
8 certain that I will refer the matter to
9 the U.S. Attorney's Office, Criminal
10 Division, for review; because my feeling
11 is, it is not absolutely certain, but it
12 is very likely, because I see my role as
13 seeing that facts and the truth do come
14 out to some extent. Although I could be
15 persuaded that's not an appropriate
16 case, or whatever, I at least have the
17 right under the Order, to make referrals
18 to Criminal Justice, so it will help
19 them assess whether or not it is
20 appropriate to take other steps to find
21 out what the evidence is. That's a
22 long-winded explanation of complex
23 topics.
24 From my point of view, I can't
25 think of any subject that you would
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2 assert the Fifth Amendment on. It is
3 not what I think; it is what you and
4 your counsel think.
5 I would also tell you that,
6 although Mr. Rothman or Mr. Silverman
7 are not here, the District Council does
8 not recognize a carpenter has a Fifth
9 Amendment right. And we've discussed
10 that as recently as today, with
11 officials at the District Council, that
12 in terms of determining carpenter
13 justice and determining what is
14 happening on a jobsite, or what has
15 happened amount a particular carpentry
16 type job, they don't recognize that a
17 carpenter has a Fifth Amendment right,
18 and they could require you to come in
19 and answer those very questions that
20 were not answered, given my questions.
21 The assertion of the Fifth is
22 something that you're fortunate to have
23 the benefit of counsel to decide when
24 and if it's appropriate.
25 I don't know of any subject that
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2 I would be asking you about that you
3 would have a potential criminal problem,
4 but that is not for me to decide, and it
5 is something for you, with the benefit
6 of counsel, to think about. And it is
7 entirely your right, it is your
8 constitutional right, to assert or not
9 assert, as you see fit.
10 Now, also important is a concept
11 which I'm sure or I believe Mr. Lombardi
12 may have talked to you about; and that
13 is, a conflict, because he represent and
14 will represent other carpenters who are
15 members of the District Council. In
16 fact, as probably most people know, he
17 represents the EST in a particular case
18 which I have really little knowledge
19 about. But Mr. Lombardi, who I know, is
20 an experienced lawyer. Recognize that
21 no matter who he represents, it is his
22 obligation, and there's recent opinions
23 by the Bar Association on his
24 obligations to consider whether or not
25 he would be conflicted in representing
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2 you, because as he sits here today, and
3 as he discusses matters with you or
4 advises you, he cannot in any way
5 utilize his representation or be
6 affected by representation of another
7 individual, and permit him to give you
8 unsound legal advice.
9 In other words, his major job,
10 his only job, is to watch out for Ron
11 Rawald; period. Even though your
12 information could theoretically, and I
13 talk about a hypothetical, be critical
14 of other people that he represents, if
15 that is true, his advice to you must be:
16 You tell the truth no matter who it
17 helps or hurts; because he cannot, for
18 the benefit of any other individual,
19 encourage you to not be completely
20 truthful and forthcoming. That can be a
21 quandary for a lawyer. That's Mr.
22 Lombardi's quandary, because it is his
23 obligation to Judge Haight and to you,
24 that he has to be sure that he can give
25 you unconflicted advice on your rights,
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2 or your rights alone. I don't know if
3 that subject has been discussed with
4 you.
5 MR. RAWALD: Yes
6 MR. MACK: Terrific. As far as
7 you are concerned, you feel it's
8 adequate and you're prepared to proceed
9 with him as things stand?
10 MR. RAWALD: Yes.
11 MR. MACK: I assumed so, but
12 those things can change as matters
13 proceed. It is his obligation to be
14 true to you and ensure that his advice
15 to you is unconflicted and does not
16 affect your exposure. Because, for
17 instance, again I use a hypothetical, if
18 you testify to something untruthful,
19 designed to protect a client of his, you
20 will not be able to defend on the basis
21 that that information, you know, you
22 were advised to protect this person or
23 protect that person, but you have to
24 honor your oath. And even though he may
25 have a conflict or he may advise you, it
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2 is still your personal obligation to
3 testify to the truth.
4 Is that reasonably clear?
5 MR. RAWALD: Yes, it is.
6 MR. MACK: Good.
7 I want to introduce all the
8 people that are here, and why they are
9 here. And the situation is, and I'm not
10 going to actually start the questioning
11 without the District Council person
12 here, but it will either be Gary
13 Silverman or Gary Rothman. I'm going to
14 harass him as our first business, to
15 find out why he is holding us up. He
16 will be here to represent, by my
17 invitation, to represent the District
18 Council. I will give him an opportunity
19 the say something to explain that
20 person's presence here today. You may
21 have a need or desire to speak to
22 someone representing the District
23 Council, and if so, you will be excused
24 and permitted to do that at any time.
25 That's one of the reasons why I'm not
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2 going the proceed until he gets here.
3 This is Ed Scarvalone. He is not
4 a criminal prosecutor, he represents the
5 Civil Division, he is a party to the
6 Consent Decree and a party to the Order
7 appointing me. I found that because
8 many of my investigations take a
9 significant period of time, that it is
10 advisable for me to ensure that not only
11 the District Council but also the
12 Government, is aware of testimony in
13 questions that concern you. If they
14 feel action need be taken before I
15 submit a report to the judge or before I
16 get around to completing my session, for
17 the most part they have that data and
18 that information, so if there are things
19 that need to be done or things that need
20 to be asked, things that have to be
21 raised, they have that opportunity;
22 Mr. Rothman or Mr. Silverman will have
23 an opportunity to ask questions as well.
24 If I feel that somebody is
25 abusing the process, I have the right to
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2 say you have another way to question the
3 witness. It's because I may forget to
4 ask something that is important. It is
5 designed to be fair.
6 I would also say that you will
7 have an opportunity, if you feel you
8 have been denied the opportunity to
9 balance certain facts or to present
10 something that hasn't been heard, I try
11 to make it a routine practice to permit
12 the witness to explain their perspective
13 on a particular issue or concern. And
14 of course your counsel, who is generally
15 very bashful and unwilling to speak out
16 on any subject, he will be encouraged to
17 speak out and raise questions if they
18 need to be asked.
19 This is actually a pretty simple
20 procedure. I want to take just a few
21 moments to explain what I anticipate
22 doing tonight. I want to ask some
23 fundamental questions about how long you
24 have been a member and what your current
25 position is and how you got there. And
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2 then I'm going to go through your job
3 referral history and raise questions
4 about specific jobs and things that went
5 on.
6 I don't know if there's a concept
7 of wrongdoing, it may be alien and not
8 appropriate here, I don't know that I
9 can really describe any particular
10 pieces of fact as being misconduct or
11 not. One of the things that I've found
12 frequently, nobody much understood the
13 practices and procedures that were
14 presumably in place. And I see my role
15 as bringing that fact out, that there
16 may have been a lack of leadership or
17 clarity about obligations, the way the
18 system would work, and maybe even some
19 disagreement at the District Council and
20 among shop stewards what was the right
21 way and wrong way to do things.
22 I encourage you to be open and
23 raise things as you understood them, and
24 how they were done and why they were
25 done. I want you to feel that you have
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2 been able to present your side or
3 perspective on any of these points.
4 Having said all that, I guess the
5 one other thing is, Mr. Nissenbaum is
6 the hardest-working person in the room;
7 we'll give him breaks every so often to
8 recover. The reason I have a person
9 here transcribing the situation,
10 frequently I will read a transcript
11 months after it occurred, and I simply
12 don't have the mental capacity to
13 remember what points were made. It is
14 an aid to permit me to make sure I
15 understand how you answered a question;
16 and more importantly, when the judge
17 reads the transcripts and tries to
18 understand what is the right solution or
19 what is the right way to deal with
20 certain facts, he has a pretty accurate
21 record of what was said and who said it.
22 Having said all of that, are
23 there any questions or anything you
24 would like to say?
25 I'm going to ask Mr. Lombardi
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2 what's happening, and then I'm going to
3 find out where the District Council is.
4 Any questions, or anything --
5 MR. RAWALD: None that I can
6 think of.
7 MR. LOMBARDI: My client was in a
8 car accident just a matter of days ago,
9 so knock wood, he is fairly well, but he
10 has a pinched nerve, other things. He
11 may need a bit of a break.
12 MR. MACK: Notwithstanding my
13 reputation for insensitivity, you can
14 have a break whenever you want one.
15 MR. RAWALD: Thank you.
16 MR. MACK: Anything you would
17 look to say, Ed?
18 MR. SCARVALONE: No.
19 MR. MACK: Let's take a break and
20 see where the Garys are.
21 (Short recess taken.)
22 MR. MACK: On the record.
23 Gary Silverman, you have had the
24 benefit of missing things you've heard
25 before, but I do want to touch base on a
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2 couple of things that would allow you,
3 since I handed out copies of certain
4 exhibits which I'm likely to use, which
5 are in front of you, I've gone through
6 almost all introductions and rights and
7 all the warnings and things that I
8 normally give. But you may wish to
9 comment on two things, and that is,
10 having to do with I went through the
11 Fifth Amendment subject matter. And I
12 said that I believe the District
13 Council's position on that was, that
14 should there be an assertion of the
15 Fifth Amendment, that you reserve the
16 right to inquire, and did not recognize
17 that that would shield the witness from
18 further inquiry by the District Council,
19 but that that is a policy that the
20 District Council's representative could
21 express one way or another.
22 I indicated you're my invited
23 guest, you have the right to ask
24 questions, and pretty much everything is
25 the same. But I want to give you the
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2 opportunity, if there's any particular
3 comment. I know you're here on short
4 notice.
5 MR. SILVERMAN: Yes.
6 MR. MACK: You had not planned to
7 spend some portion of the evening over
8 here tonight, so I appreciate your
9 coming here to represent the District
10 Council.
11 One of the things that I said to
12 Mr. Rawald, if he wishes to consult with
13 you as a representative of the District
14 Council at any time during today's
15 inquiry, that he would have the
16 opportunity to be excused and discuss
17 matters with you.
18 MR. SILVERMAN: I appreciate
19 that.
20 MR. MACK: Do you have anything,
21 or should we proceed?
22 MR. SILVERMAN: Well put by you.
23 MR. MACK: You probably heard it
24 before, and you would go to sleep.
25 Let me ask that the witness be
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2 sworn, if you would.
3 R O N A L D R A W A L D , the witness
4 herein, was duly sworn by Stewart Nissenbaum,
5 a Notary Public of the State of New York.
6 EXAMINATION BY
7 MR. MACK:
8 Q Mr. Rawald, I'm going to proceed
9 tonight, and if I call you Ron, it is not out
10 of disrespect, but it is designed not to be a
11 formal proceeding, but designed to help me
12 gather facts in my role as investigator so I
13 can submit certain reports that I feel may be
14 important for the judge.
15 In any event, could you tell me
16 what your current position is with the
17 District Council, as precisely as you can?
18 A I'm a union organizer with the
19 District Council.
20 Q I will tell you, I asked
21 Mr. Leary, the Director of Operations today,
22 a little bit about your accession or
23 obtaining your current position, and not that
24 I accept his view of the subject matter, but
25 there was some explanation he gave me having
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2 to do with, I guess what is it, the
3 Industrial Council, or something of that
4 nature?
5 A Right.
6 Q Could you just go through your
7 understanding of what that role, if any, is?
8 I mean, I know you're an organizer, I've seen
9 you over there and discussed subjects with
10 you, but I know that there may be more to it.
11 Was your original becoming an employee of the
12 District Council, as an organizer, or did you
13 have some role with the Industrial Council?
14 A Yes, originally I was hired to
15 serve as some kind of liaison between the
16 District Council and the Industrial Council,
17 where there is currently, Frank Marino is his
18 name, I guess his position is also EST. They
19 were going -- they had broken away from the
20 District Council years back, I don't know
21 when, and they were going to be brought back
22 into the fold, as far as I understood, under
23 the direction of our International office.
24 And I was going to work with Mr. Marino,
25 which I did, in the first few months of my
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2 employment, visiting various shops that the
3 Industrial Council oversees.
4 Q Could you just explain, to
5 dissipate my ignorance, what type of shops
6 are those, how do they differ from the shops
7 I'm familiar with?
8 A The shops that we went to, and
9 from what I learned from being with
10 Mr. Marino, they are more on the line of
11 factories, like auto assembly lines, people
12 work in these shops, they manufacture door
13 bucks, doors, do the cut-outs for hardware;
14 not necessarily wood, it might be metal
15 frames for door bucks.
16 They also, some of the shops that
17 they were covering, they would make
18 toothpicks, they would make Q-Tips. There
19 were numerous shops, and they all were under
20 the, I guess, umbrella of carpenters, but
21 these people were a different salary, wage
22 range, and their skill level was not -- they
23 were pretty much factory workers.
24 Q When were you hired to take this
25 position?
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2 A May 5th, 2003.
3 Q What happened to the plan, I
4 mean, --
5 A Your guess is as good as mine.
6 As far as I know, there's a federal overseer,
7 trustee, if you will, who is controlling
8 their operation in Brooklyn. They had three
9 or four different offices. The one where
10 Frank Marino was affiliated with was at
11 Jamaica, Queens. There's one in Brooklyn,
12 there's one in Manhattan, and I believe there
13 was one in Long Island City, Queens; but
14 that's not no longer around.
15 Q Do you know who the federal
16 overseer is?
17 A No. I understood there were
18 people that went in there and took over,
19 whether it was Court-sanctioned or how it was
20 that they went in to take over, and that I
21 wasn't going into anything as long these
22 people were still in there; once it was
23 cleared up, then I would be going to work
24 with Mr. Marino.
25 Q Is there someone who you know at
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2 the District Council who has a more precise
3 understanding of precisely who is overseeing
4 the Industrial Council?
5 A No, I really don't; I don't know.
6 Q When you don't know, that's fine;
7 that's a perfectly good answer.
8 When were you informed that you
9 would not be joining Mr. Marino while there
10 was a federal overseer in place?
11 Approximately when was that?
12 A I still would have been a
13 foreman. After probably three months, four
14 months of going with Mr. Marino to various
15 shops and meeting with him and also doing
16 District Council functions that I was given
17 by my District Supervisor, Eddie McWilliams,
18 since then I guess I operated as an
19 organizer, I put up picket lines and did my
20 daily job as an organizer.
21 Q I don't know if "report" is the
22 right word, but your supervisor is Ed
23 McWilliams?
24 A Yes.
25 Q In terms of tracking your time
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2 and what you do on that day, do you keep some
3 record?
4 A Yes, a daily report handed in
5 weekly.
6 Q None of my questioning today is
7 going to deal with any of your roles as
8 organizer. I just wanted to understand your
9 current situation. You're an employee of the
10 District Council; is that correct?
11 A Yes, it is.
12 Q What I would like to do today is
13 go through a fairly limited time period in
14 which you have been on the out-of-work list
15 in various jobs you've had. In order to do
16 that with some precision, I furnished before
17 we started today, certain documents. And so
18 I want to take a moment and go through them,
19 so that all of my worthy colleagues here can
20 proceed; and we are basically going to go
21 chronologically. So I want to make sure that
22 you are familiar with what is available to
23 you, because you may need to refer to them
24 from time to time.
25 Perhaps the most significant
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2 document, and the one we'll be spending most
3 of our time with, is listed as RR-2. And so
4 that is at least what's been furnished to me
5 as recently as yesterday, as a copy of your
6 job referral history, maintained at the
7 District Council.
8 So if you take a moment and just
9 take a look at RR-2, and it is really pretty
10 self-explanatory, but we'll be going through
11 some of the entries there.
12 (Job referral history marked
13 Exhibit RR-2.)
14 Q I just want to check one fact
15 that seems to be apparent, and that is, that
16 your initiation date as a member was in 1983,
17 September 7, 1983; is that correct?
18 A Yes, it is correct.
19 Q Have you been a member of 608 for
20 that entire period?
21 A Twenty-one years, yes, sir.
22 Q Congratulations.
23 The other documents that have
24 significance, or at least may aid me, are
25 what has been furnished to me as your
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2 benefits history, and that is RR-3. You
3 should have that available to you, because
4 from time to time, I will be asking you
5 questions which stem from that document.
6 MR. MACK: If any of my worthy
7 colleagues here are missing a document,
8 let me know, because my intent has been
9 to provide you with a copy of each of
10 these in the time we have been waiting.
11 (Benefits record marked Exhibit
12 RR-3.)
13 Q The rest of the documents are
14 numbered RR-4 through and including 8; and
15 they tend to be dispatches, with the records
16 maintained by the District Council concerning
17 that dispatch; and those are the records
18 maintained there.
19 I'll try to refer you to them,
20 and they may be of value, recognizing they
21 are not your records, they are records of the
22 District Council, furnished to me. I have no
23 reason not to rely upon them, but what's most
24 important is your memory. And if, for
25 instance, we get to a record that you may
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2 have something that helps, or something you
3 know about that would be helpful on the
4 topic, you should mention that; because there
5 are questions here that this, you know, the
6 records may not address, and I intend to go
7 through them pretty much in chronological
8 fashion.
9 (Dispatches marked Exhibits RR-4
10 through 7.)
11 (Group of shop steward reports
12 marked Exhibit RR-8.)
13 Q The final exhibit, as far as I
14 know, sometimes we come up with other
15 exhibits, is RR-8, which are a collection of
16 shop steward reports on a particular job that
17 you were assigned to at 745 Seventh Avenue
18 for a long period of time. And there will be
19 some questions that have to deal with that
20 job, and certain aspects of it that I just
21 don't understand.
22 I ask you to be patient with me
23 and recognize, as most people at the District
24 Council recognize, that ignorance is one of
25 my strong suits, and they have to bring me up
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2 to speed. I would ask you to do the same.
3 I think the document, probably of
4 greatest significance or the one we'll be
5 referring to the most, is RR-2.
6 If you take a look, briefly, at
7 the front of that, and that purports to
8 reflect all of the skills that you currently
9 hold as shown by the Distritct Council's
10 records.
11 You might take a moment and just
12 read through that. The reason the skills are
13 somewhat significant as we proceed, is
14 because your job referral history shows a
15 number of times when skills go on, skills go
16 off, on particular occasions; and that always
17 intrigues me because of the dispatches that
18 follow. You can assume some of my questions
19 will deal with why you put a skill on and
20 took it out; did you have any advice or
21 guidance or suggestions that you do that at a
22 particular time.
23 If you haven't seen already, you
24 will see as we proceed through, that the
25 timeliness of some of these things seems to
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2 interrelate with dispatches.
3 Those are my questions, and they
4 are straightforward.
5 Because the computer is a West
6 Coast computer, the actual time shown on the
7 subsequent pages to RR-2, are three hours
8 earlier than this, really. You probably know
9 this stuff better than I.
10 But, the first entry on RR-2 is
11 June 7, 1999, and basically the actual time
12 there is, and you will see that there is a
13 particular skill that's added, and -- that's
14 Hilty ram set power tool, which -- that's the
15 code word, PDRTLCP. I know that because I
16 have a little cheat sheet that helps me.
17 That entry there, which has no
18 particular reference, the first entry on the
19 out-of-work list for you is June 7, 1999, at
20 12:06 p.m., but that's three hours, you know,
21 later, and it shows that you added a skill,
22 and there are additional skills there, but in
23 that case, that abbreviation is for a Hilty
24 ram set power tool, which is a skill you have
25 added had at the time.
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2 A Yes.
3 Q As you proceed, it is
4 chronological, the only thing different is
5 the time, you have to add three hours to it
6 to get it.
7 My first question will deal with,
8 and if you look at February 18, 2000, the
9 out-of-work list reflects that you were added
10 to the out-of-work list at 2:05 p.m. on that
11 date. Just take a moment. You're added to
12 the out-of-work list and your number on the
13 out-of-work list for 608 is No. 1758.
14 Have you ever looked at the
15 out-of-work list? Is this a new experience
16 for you?
17 A No, I've looked at it before.
18 Q The first question, as you can
19 imagine, is, were you really out of work when
20 you added yourself to the list? Because, and
21 I'm sure you've looked at this, if you looked
22 at the Benefit Fund records, insofar as they
23 have been submitted to me, it at least
24 appears to my eye that you were actually
25 working at that time. And the reason -- and
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2 again, I have been through this a couple of
3 times, and I, in all cases, if your
4 recollection is, or you can contest that you
5 were not working and that it is basically
6 Component's mistake as having reported hours
7 for you, and you'll notice on Page 1, 2, 3,
8 4, 5, 6, Component Assembly is reporting
9 hours for you for the months of February and
10 March, more than a 35-hour week. You'll see
11 them right there.
12 So at least it appears to me,
13 based on this record, which I have no reason
14 to dispute, that you were actually at work at
15 that time.
16 Just think about that for a
17 moment; and then that's the question.
18 A Your question is?
19 Q My question is: When you were
20 put on the out-of-work list on February 18,
21 2000, were you actually employed at work
22 during that time?
23 A I guess by looking at these, that
24 I was.
25 Q It does appear that to me, but,
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2 you know --
3 A I honestly couldn't remember what
4 I did in February 2000. If it shows my name
5 was on the out-of-work list, I would assume
6 that I put it on. Benefits were paid. I was
7 working.
8 Q I want to be fair to you here.
9 You know, if there is -- let me give you some
10 of the theoretical situations. Somebody else
11 put your name on the out-of-work list without
12 your knowledge. That's one.
13 A Go ahead.
14 Q I want to give you that. I have
15 been through them all, heard them all, and
16 most of them can be knocked down one way or
17 the other.
18 Another one, Component was wrong
19 and they recorded hours for someone else
20 and --
21 MR. LOMBARDI: Why don't we back
22 up and do them seriatim.
23 One was, are you aware whether
24 somebody put your name on the
25 out-of-work list?
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2 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
3 You're telling me that there were phone
4 calls coming in here, anonymous phone
5 calls, it wouldn't surprise me.
6 Q District Council goes to pretty
7 significant extreme, and that has improved
8 over time. You'll see that one of the
9 benefits of this list is, as you will go
10 through, very shortly thereafter, you add
11 skills, delete skills. There's a lot of
12 evidence of personal conduct back and forth.
13 But the reality of the event here is, for
14 instance, if Component is wrong in reporting
15 hours, I'll subpoena their work records.
16 If you look at your benefit
17 history here, Component reports a lot of
18 time; you know, that's great. I'm happy for
19 you and your family.
20 The issue is: Should you be on
21 the out-of-work list when you're working. If
22 there's a legitimate basis to contest that, I
23 will do whatever is necessary to gather the
24 facts. But if it is your recollection or
25 belief, only you know whether you were
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2 working or there were periods when you in
3 fact were not working at the time, and I
4 should not rely on the benefit record, you
5 should tell me, and I'll do what's necessary
6 to gather facts.
7 MR. LOMBARDI: Do you recall
8 whether you were working, as you sit
9 here now?
10 THE WITNESS: As there were
11 benefits paid to me --
12 MR. LOMBARDI: Do you recall as
13 you sit here now, whether you were
14 working at that time?
15 THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
16 Q What I will do, is, you know, I
17 can subpoena, you know, Component's record,
18 if you feel that there is, in fact, a
19 legitimate question as to whether you were
20 working or not. I'm willing to do that if
21 you think this may be mistaken.
22 Do you recall a period in 2000
23 where you were out of work for any period of
24 time?
25 A Not off the top of my head.
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2 Q If there's any chance that you
3 were out of work during 2000, and presumably
4 that would be an important subject,
5 obviously, to you and your family and those
6 who depend on you, I'll try to inquire.
7 I have to say, the records
8 themselves are pretty vigorous in appearing
9 as if you were working for that time period.
10 But I will do -- if you say, I don't recall,
11 maybe I don't recall what I was doing last
12 night, but I want to make sure that we don't
13 get overly technical.
14 If you feel there's a time in
15 2000 when you were out of work for a period
16 of weeks, you should tell me. If, on the
17 other hand, your recollection is, I really
18 didn't miss much work, I was working most of
19 2000, you know, then I think that should
20 affect your answer.
21 A I would say that's close to where
22 I'm coming from, that I was working pretty
23 much steadily; whether at that exact time I
24 was working, I don't know. I mean, I
25 can't --
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2 Q As we go along, you'll see there
3 are other opportunities to assess this; and
4 if I conclude as a matter of discretion, that
5 there is a legitimate question as to whether
6 you were unemployed at the time you were on
7 the list, I can get records; and I just don't
8 want to go through the process of subpoenaing
9 them and bringing them into the process,
10 unless you feel there's a legitimate question
11 that were you out of work.
12 The reason I say that, you are on
13 the out-of-work list, and we are going to go
14 through your skills, and what have you. But
15 you were on the out-of-work list from
16 February 18, 2000, all the way through a
17 dispatch that we are going to be -- several
18 dispatches in May of 2000. Okay?
19 And so the question that I will
20 ask anybody under this situation, is why you
21 were on the out-of-work list if you were in
22 fact working. That's the question for you.
23 And the records seem to believe, at least as
24 I read them, you should look at them,
25 ignorance is something many people enjoy
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2 pointing out to me; it seems to me that you
3 were working during that entire time period.
4 If you take a look at the hours
5 reported for you from Component, you will see
6 that there's regular reporting through the
7 months of February, March, April and May. So
8 you can take a look at that and study that.
9 I'm willing to pursue any of those employers,
10 but on their face, they appear -- benefits
11 appear to be reported for you from these
12 employers during that entire time period. My
13 conclusion would be, that you were working at
14 the time while on the out-of-work list, but
15 I'm willing to explore any avenue of evidence
16 you think I should.
17 A I think that's a safe assumption.
18 MR. LOMBARDI: As long as we
19 understand it is an assumption.
20 MR. MACK: It may be an
21 assumption.
22 Q Unless there's some evidence to
23 the contrary, I'm going to find that you
24 were, unless there's something that you feel
25 that I have overlooked, and, you know, you
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2 have every opportunity, should you wish, to
3 obtain your employment record. But I really
4 want to make sure that I don't go through the
5 process of subpoenaing records unless there's
6 a legitimate question that you weren't
7 working at the time, and they made a mistake
8 reporting hours for somebody else; or made a
9 mistake reporting for you.
10 MR. LOMBARDI: At this point, I
11 don't think Mr. Rawald wants to ask you
12 to subpoena those records, nor do I.
13 And the records are here for Mr. Rawald
14 to look at, he's looking at them, he is
15 somewhat familiar with them.
16 Still and all, we don't want him
17 to guess, we don't want him to
18 speculate. We are asking questions of
19 almost five years ago. I just want the
20 record to be clear, that he's looking at
21 them, he is deferring, to some extent,
22 to the records, as you are.
23 But I want it to be clear, if he
24 says he doesn't have a present
25 recollection of a week, a month, four
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2 and a half years ago, that that's what
3 the record reflects.
4 MR. MACK: I think you've stated
5 that. I will reserve the right to
6 gather additional evidence if you raise
7 the question, but I want to make sure
8 that Mr. Rawald has every opportunity to
9 raise a question that would challenge
10 the accuracy of these records.
11 Otherwise I am likely to accept the
12 record as being accurate.
13 MR. LOMBARDI: Okay.
14 Q So, let me ask this: Do you have
15 a recollection as to why or under what
16 circumstances you felt it was appropriate to
17 be on the out-of-work list when you in fact
18 were working?
19 MR. LOMBARDI: Do you recall how
20 you came to be on the out-of-work list?
21 THE WITNESS: No. I answered
22 that, I don't remember making a phone
23 call, putting myself on the out-of-work
24 list, you know. I know that the
25 out-of-work list was fairly new at the
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2 time, there were some remarks made to
3 me, because I was employed before that
4 on a long-period job.
5 Q Say it again.
6 A A long-period job. I was the
7 steward at Four Times Square. They had a
8 scaffold collapse there, we were there for
9 probably three years plus.
10 Q When was that?
11 A '97, '98; probably up until that
12 point. And there were remarks made by
13 people, -- people had said to me, we have an
14 out-of-work list now. I didn't know about
15 it, because I had no need for an out-of-work
16 list, because I was working at the time on a
17 long-term job.
18 Q Right.
19 A The February call, I don't know
20 if I was informed that maybe the job was
21 coming to an end, and trying to get a head
22 start on -- I know it's not right to do, you
23 put the name on the out-of-work list when you
24 are working, that might be one reason I might
25 have done it. I can't remember the exact
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2 call on February 18th where I put my name on;
3 that much I know.
4 Q You wouldn't be the first person
5 here to explain that their observance of the
6 out-of-work list rules was not the first
7 thing in their mind. I don't want you to
8 think that you are alone in acknowledging
9 that there may have been times when you were
10 working and shouldn't have been on the
11 out-of-work list.
12 The important thing is, do your
13 very best to, you know, be as accurate as you
14 can, recognizing that, hey, do you remember
15 making the phone call; I'm not saying that,
16 but if somebody advised you or somebody said,
17 hey, it would be prudent to add this skill,
18 delete that skill, put your name on; there's
19 a job coming down that you would be great
20 for; I'm asking those types of questions.
21 A I understand.
22 Q You wouldn't be the only person
23 who, I don't want to use the word, gamed the
24 system, but utilized the system to their
25 advantage. That's one of the reasons I write
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2 the reports, because there may be things that
3 need to be done by the District Council to
4 make sure the playing field is the way
5 everybody wants it to be.
6 So in this situation, the way I
7 look at it, based on the record, unless
8 there's a defect, is that I have to, all I
9 know, you're on the out-of-work list, because
10 as you'll see, starting in March, there are a
11 whole series of skills added on and off.
12 A Again, that's what -- I didn't
13 have any qualifications or certifications on
14 my work history as what's listed here now.
15 And that was told to me, you better take a
16 look at what you have on your out-of-work
17 list, call up, find out what they have you
18 down for, and add on or subtract whatever it
19 is. All those dates there seems I did it in
20 the beginning of March, those are added, and
21 on 3/10 --
22 Q We are going to go through them.
23 The main thing is, if somebody said to you,
24 hey, Ronnie, this is the way the out-of-work
25 list works, make sure all the skills that you
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2 have, get on, and assisted you in explaining
3 to you how it works, that's something of
4 value. Because as you will see, as we move
5 along, there's some things that, at least to
6 me, I need some explaining on as to why they
7 happened and how they happened.
8 In this situation, I mean, your
9 benefit record is pretty clear, that you were
10 working through this time period, at least to
11 my unpracticed eye. And my question is, you
12 know, if you can remember during this time
13 period that you weren't working, this is
14 obviously the time to say it. But you don't
15 remember not working during this time; you
16 were working?
17 A That's right.
18 MR. LOMBARDI: During February
19 and March of 2000.
20 MR. MACK: 2000. Right.
21 Q Go with me. I want to make sure
22 that the things that I bring to your
23 attention, they are designed to show what the
24 record reflects, but they also may refresh
25 your recollection about why certain things
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2 happened and why they didn't; and that's what
3 I'm seeking to do as well as ask you
4 questions about what happened.
5 So, as we go through it, you will
6 see that in March of 2000, March 9, 2000, at
7 11:45, you added, and thereafter, 11:46 a.m.,
8 you added drywall, framing, I guess
9 acoustical ceiling, foreman-layout,
10 protection, furniture, hardware.
11 You see those going all there
12 through?
13 A Right.
14 Q All of which skills, I'm sure
15 you're more than entitled to have. That's
16 not the issue. Do you remember being
17 advised, or the circumstances under which you
18 decided to put those particular skills on
19 your out-of-work list qualifications, your
20 skills set?
21 A Not at that point, those original
22 add-ons were all just a blanket, call up and
23 put on as many skills as you can.
24 Q Did you rely, or did somebody
25 advise you: Hey, in order to take advantages
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2 of out-of-work list, all your skills need to
3 be listed, it will be better for you; were
4 you doing this as a result of your own
5 research and wisdom, or did somebody advise
6 you this was a good thing to do?
7 A No, my own capabilities as a
8 carpenter and seeing what was out there, you
9 know; and I know a lot of people in the
10 business, I guess.
11 Q All I'm trying to find out is if
12 somebody gave you advice and said, hey, why
13 aren't your skills on there; or, take
14 advantage of it, this is what you need to do.
15 A No.
16 Q Okay. Then you'll see there that
17 they were unable to reach you, and you were
18 on the 608, you were No. 1146, and that would
19 have been at 3:21 p.m. Of course, there are
20 209 hours reported for you for Component in
21 March of 2000.
22 Do you remember where you were
23 working in March of 2000; in other words,
24 what jobsite you were on during this period?
25 A I was either still at Four Times
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2 Square or at Three Times Square, which is
3 another job they had. I was not the steward.
4 And also another job, the Sovotel Hotel. In
5 that time period, I could have been on any
6 one of those jobs.
7 The job at Four Times Square was
8 done in phases. The Nasdaq sign, that was a
9 separate phase of the job. There was a
10 cafeteria that was built that was also a
11 separate phase of the job. And the building
12 itself, the base building construction of the
13 elevator shafts and protection, that was
14 another phase of the job carried on for a
15 number of years. And sometimes it was --
16 there was work to be done; other times there
17 was a lull, and we went to another job.
18 Q So how did you receive direction
19 or guidance as to what jobsite you should go
20 to for Component during that time period?
21 A I would always go to Four Times
22 Square unless otherwise directed by the
23 general foreman.
24 Q Do you remember the name of the
25 general foreman at Component?
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2 A On the base building, it was
3 Octavio Mozilla.
4 Q If you showed up at Four Times
5 Square and there was no work, you needed to
6 go elsewhere, the general foreman directed
7 you to another site?
8 You have to make it easy for Stew
9 here. I ask the question, and you listen,
10 and then answer.
11 A He would also not be -- there
12 would be no work being done by any carpenters
13 there on the job, so he was running a number
14 of jobs himself, and he would tell me to go
15 to another foreman's job.
16 Q A different foreman who would be
17 running a different jobsite, but for
18 Component?
19 A Three Times Square, he was the
20 general foreman at. The other jobs he was
21 not; there was another general foreman.
22 Q That decision, did you get notice
23 of that on the day you showed for work, or
24 you would learn --
25 A I might find out on a Friday
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2 you're going on. It could happen as the day
3 went on. By noon there's nothing left for
4 you here, go across the street, and do some
5 hardware, protection, what have you.
6 Q Now, we are moving along here.
7 There are a series of skills that are
8 deleted. And so what I'm really asking you
9 to try to bring your mind back to, is, you're
10 on the out-of-work list, although the
11 evidence is, you're working. You've put a
12 whole series of skills, added them on in
13 early March and then the day after you added,
14 if you look at them, they go on March the
15 9th, and then on March 10 you're deleting a
16 whole series of skills. What's happening
17 there? And why? You can understand why I
18 ask that question.
19 (Pause.)
20 A Deleting skills, obviously
21 someone gave me the heads-up to take them off
22 my work history.
23 Q That's what it appears to me.
24 I'm trying to figure out who and why.
25 A I had business agents, I have
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2 been a member of the Local twenty years, I've
3 been a shop steward probably twelve, fifteen
4 years. I have been a delegate in my Local, I
5 had more or less free rein to 608 offices,
6 there was no secrets or no one there that was
7 looking to hurt me in any way, I felt.
8 Q Good.
9 A Advice of different people, I
10 really -- you know, unless you want to get
11 specific; I would rather not.
12 Q I would like to get specific, if
13 only because I think it is an important
14 factor. Because when you look at the record,
15 being an outsider, and an ignorant outsider
16 at that, it is not something that you can
17 readily explain, unless it is explained as a
18 carpenter.
19 One thing I want to say, I make a
20 point of saying it to every person who serves
21 as shop steward, as a leader, what have you,
22 your skills and competencies as a carpenter
23 or shop steward are not at issue. It is not
24 like you're being criticized as not being a
25 competent or outstanding leader or organizer.
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2 The question really is, how does the system
3 work, and does the system work; and is it
4 level or not, or should it be level or not.
5 Those aren't factors that I have
6 any role in assessing. I have a role in
7 describing the system as it actually works,
8 as an investigator. So, please don't take
9 anything I say as being critical of you and
10 your skills as a leader or a carpenter. It
11 is generally designed to see how some people
12 have the benefit, perhaps, of insight and
13 guidance, where others don't, and maybe
14 that's the way it should be, maybe the very
15 best should have the benefit of that
16 guidance. That's not for me to assess; it is
17 something for the judge and the parties to
18 discuss.
19 So what I'm asking here is, if
20 there was -- we are going to get into
21 dispatches, in which, clearly, business
22 agents are, at least in my view, acting in a
23 way to facilitate your assignment to a job.
24 Let me tell you where I am so
25 there's no question about looking at the
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2 facts. If there's something wrong with that
3 or not, that's not for me to deal with; I
4 just try to figure out what happened.
5 If a business agent said to you,
6 gee, Ronnie, it would be a good idea now,
7 that you put drywall, framing, acoustical
8 ceilings, and protection and furniture as a
9 skill added March 9, and you took very same
10 skills off March 10, and you added the skill
11 welder. I tried to figure out what was
12 happening.
13 A I was given a heads-up.
14 Q Do you remember who gave you the
15 heads-up, and for what?
16 MR. LOMBARDI: Do you want to
17 talk to me?
18 A Jerry Philbin.
19 Q What was the purpose of the
20 heads-up, what was happening here? Was there
21 a particular job or a particular subject, or
22 a goal that you were seeking?
23 A Yeah, I had, I guess,
24 information, I had been to the jobsite, that
25 Component had another job on the horizon, 745
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2 Seventh Avenue, and every person,
3 practically, that was at Four Times Square,
4 from every other trade from electricians to
5 plumbers to master mechanics, elevator
6 installers, was going to that job. And it
7 was assumed by other people who aren't as
8 informed as the rest of us, the way things
9 work with the carpenters, that I was going to
10 that job as the shop steward.
11 Q When you say that it was assumed,
12 who is making that assumption?
13 A Other people who aren't
14 carpenters. Superintendents for the general
15 contractor. Site safety managers for the
16 general contractor. The electrician general
17 foreman, the electrician shop steward, the
18 elevator installers shop steward, the
19 elevator installers general foreman.
20 Q Let me make sure I understand
21 what you're saying. It was assumed, because,
22 meaning that they wanted you to go there
23 because that made sense, or that -- I'm not
24 sure what the word "assume" on their part,
25 means.
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2 A That these other tradesmen were
3 going to that job. I had got to know them
4 over a period of time that I worked with
5 them, always conducted myself in a
6 professional way, and it was just -- they
7 knew Octavio was going there as the general
8 foreman; and it was just that I was going
9 there with him.
10 Q Because they wanted you to go
11 there, or, hey, there's a way it could be
12 engineered that you would go there, because
13 as the system is set up, it wouldn't be
14 automatic that you would go there unless
15 there was intervention of some kind?
16 A The people who aren't informed as
17 to how the way things work with the
18 carpenter. It's just automatically that the
19 electrician shop steward goes with the
20 foreman to the next job, and the elevator guy
21 goes with them. The people that didn't know
22 the way things run, they thought Ronnie is
23 going with Octavio to the next job. The way
24 it would be worked out is to have my skills
25 match what was needed.
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2 Q How can you know -- we are going
3 to get to this; because all of this is done
4 in March, and you're not sent to the job
5 itself until May.
6 A Right.
7 Q So what happened there?
8 A The job is in the ground, the
9 hole is in the ground, we are sent -- I was
10 sent up with another carpenter, or one or two
11 carpenters at different times, up to that
12 jobsite to do site prep work, Tishman's field
13 office protection, putting up orange netting,
14 putting up blue plywood. That would be also
15 another job that I went to at different
16 points when I was at Four Times Square.
17 Q For those who are out-of-work
18 list purists, you are on the out-of-work list
19 from February of 2000 all the way through
20 May. So at least for those who see the
21 out-of-work list as being something where
22 you're actually out of work, you are
23 actually -- in fact, you're actually on the
24 jobsite. Isn't that true?
25 A Correct.
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2 Q So, could you explain to me how
3 the skill adjustment was done in this case?
4 Because as we are going to get to here, we
5 have a whole series of events we want to talk
6 about, in May. I think I understand what
7 they are, and I'm trying to be very
8 unjudgmental here. I want to understand how
9 the process worked and who was responsible
10 for it. Okay?
11 But I notice that, for instance,
12 you add welder, which virtually is a skill
13 that has significance with respect to the
14 final dispatch to the job that you wished to
15 go to.
16 Who advised you? Was it Jerry
17 Philbin who advised you, hey, put welding,
18 that's a --
19 A It would benefit you if it was on
20 your skills.
21 Q If you know, you may not know,
22 how does Jerry coordinate with the contractor
23 Component, to make sure that welder is a
24 skill that is requested?
25 A As far as I know, he didn't
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2 coordinate it with Component in any way.
3 Q Let's continue. Again, I want to
4 go through this.
5 Unable to reach, March 16, 2000,
6 unable to reach on referral. The next entry
7 is May 17, it appears the me, and maybe you
8 just answered it, that they expected you to
9 go to the Component job, or that that would
10 be referred in March. There's a whole new
11 area of skill added, subtracted, going on in
12 May.
13 Did something happen there that
14 you can remember why there was a delay, or
15 the job wasn't ready to have a steward yet?
16 A I don't think there was anything
17 deleted. It was just added. Again, the
18 more -- if you deleted a few things back in
19 March, they should be back on there, you
20 know.
21 Q That's Jerry advising you what to
22 do, because then you're putting back, for
23 instance, protection, that you put on on
24 March 9, took it off on March 10, and put it
25 back in May. So, you know, it is not
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2 intuitive, to me, unless you're being told
3 these are the things you need to do. So was
4 it Jerry again?
5 A Yeah, again, I don't know if it
6 was exactly spelled out in those words, you
7 know, do this, do that; more of a round-about
8 way: It would benefit you if you had these
9 things on there, why did you take them off;
10 if memory serves.
11 Q Okay. Was this Jerry Philbin
12 again, giving this counsel?
13 A Yes, he was the business agent I
14 dealt with most of the time.
15 Q Did any other business agent
16 assist you with what needed to be on or off?
17 A No.
18 Q I know Jerry is no longer with
19 us, understand that, I don't want to
20 disrespect him, I only had a brief
21 opportunity before his illness