1
1
2 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
3 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
4 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
5 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
6 Plaintiff,
7 -vs- 90 Civ 5722
8 DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY and
9 VICINITY OF THE UNITED BROTHERHOOD OF
10 CARPENTERS AND JOINERS OF AMERICA, et al.,
11
12 Defendants.
13 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
14 June 14, 2005
15 4:15 p.m.
16
17 DEPOSITION of RICHARD GARCES, taken
18 by Plaintiff, held at the offices of DOAR,
19 RIECK & MACK, ESQS., 217 Broadway, New York,
20 New York, before Michael Williams, a Certified
21 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public within and
22 for the State of New York.
23
24
25
2
1
2 A P P E A R A N C E S:
3
4 DOAR, RIECK & MACK
Attorneys for Plaintiff
5 217 Broadway - 7th floor
New York, New York 10007
6
BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.
7 Independent Investigator
8
KOEHLER & ISAACS, LLP
9 Attorneys for Defendants
120 Broadway - 29th floor
10 New York, New York 10271
11 BY: STEVEN ISAACS, ESQ.
12
13
14 Also Present:
15 Donald Sobocienski
16
17
18
19
20
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25
3
1 Garces
2 MR. MACK: Mr. Garces, my name is
3 Walter Mack and I am the independent
4 investigator appointed by District Court Judge
5 Haight.
6 MR. GARCES: Nice to meet you.
7 MR. MACK: Nice to meet you. And
8 what I want to do because the judge requires it
9 of me that I make every effort to set forth and
10 go through a number of rights and warnings and
11 advise you of what's happening in a number of
12 issues I would just be patient and listen to
13 what I have to say. It will take some time but
14 it's designed by me and required by the judge
15 to make sure that this proceeding is conducted
16 fairly.
17 MR. GARCES: Yes, sir.
18 MR. MACK: And that you understand,
19 or if you have any questions about what is
20 happening, that you have them answered and I've
21 tried to do that throughout the time of my
22 appointment, so let me cover a couple of
23 things.
24 Mr. Issacs has had the misfortune of
25 spending time with me on repeated occurrences
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2 so he's heard most of this before and,
3 hopefully, has explained to you much of what I
4 will say here but I'm going to go over it
5 again.
6 Number one, whatever authority I
7 have comes from the Court's order based upon
8 the consent of the District Council of
9 Carpenters and the U.S. Attorney's office.
10 Now, recently, and I'm sure you are
11 aware of this but I always make a point of
12 doing this, the district counsel has asked the
13 judge for permission to terminate my services
14 as independent investigator, and the government
15 asked that my services be continued and the
16 judge ruled that the district council was
17 entitled to an agreement and the order.
18 So the judge issued an order
19 recently, I think it actually came out in April
20 sometime, which basically said the following:
21 The district counsel has the right to terminate
22 you, Mack, as long as they agree to have
23 someone else appointed that has roughly the
24 same authority, and that, Mack, you are to
25 continue until I appoint a new independent
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2 investigator, and once that new independent
3 investigator is appointed by court order, Mack,
4 you're to stay around for up to 60 days to
5 assist the new independent investigator in
6 doing their job.
7 So what I, although the district
8 council I'm sure is eager to see me move on to
9 my next assignment, at the moment, at least as
10 of this moment, to my knowledge, the judge has
11 not appointed a new independent investigator
12 and I am not able to predict when that will
13 occur. I assume that will occur soon.
14 So you would be within your rights,
15 if wish to, to go back to the judge and say,
16 listen, I don't want to appear before this guy,
17 Mack, one way or another. He's a lame duck.
18 MR. GARCES: I don't know. I never
19 worked.
20 MR. MACK: That's something -- I
21 make a point of going over this.
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q So that there is no individual who
24 thinks that I'm trying to hide a reality from
25 them. All right?
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2 Now, I give this introduction
3 routinely and no one has gone to the judge
4 because, perhaps, they realize that as long as
5 I am the independent investigator I don't think
6 the judge is going to prevent me from
7 continuing, and his view would be even if I
8 don't have the privilege of considering this
9 particular testimony, my successor will, but
10 that's up to you, and my feeling is up to you
11 and your counsel to consider whether you wish
12 to do so or not because the new independent
13 investigator has not been appointed yet but
14 could be appointed any day as far as I know,
15 but I'll still hang around anyway for a while
16 to deal with the subjects that I have under
17 investigation.
18 So I tell you that in an effort to
19 be fair to you so that you can't think, you
20 don't feel that I've withheld important
21 information from you.
22 Number two, I want to talk to you a
23 little bit about what my job is and, one, I am
24 an investigator. I do not have authority to
25 investigate and then discipline.
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2 In fact, my own opinion has been
3 that the district counsel disciplinary system
4 is so unreliable and unpredictable that I'm
5 very hesitant to recommend any particular
6 discipline because of my dissatisfaction with
7 the program as such and it's unevenness, and,
8 therefore, I have pretty much limited my role
9 to gathering facts and writing reports.
10 I have written five reports I
11 believe as I speak here. I've not and my
12 feeling is once I write the report, it's up to
13 the parties to decide what, if anything, needs
14 to be done. Maybe nothing.
15 So the reason I tell you that is no
16 matter what my opinion of the circumstances of
17 our discussion tonight, I have no authority to
18 impact your future and career as a district
19 council member and shop steward and whatever
20 your ambitions are.
21 I intend to write a report about
22 shop stewards concerning some complaints that
23 have been filed with me through the hotline,
24 all right. And they're strong feelings one way
25 or the other and I try to do my best in
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2 gathering facts and describing them and leaving
3 them to the parties.
4 I will tell you this, and Mr. Isaacs
5 may not know this, the government has moved or
6 we received a letter today that they are moving
7 to hold the district council in contempt for
8 failing to comply with the consent decree by
9 utilizing the request system of bringing
10 carpenters to job sites, and that I think for
11 the first time may be a reflection of a report
12 that I did write concerning the request system.
13 MR. GARCES: I don't understand.
14 What request?
15 MR. ISSACS: 50/50.
16 MR. GARCES: That's how I know it.
17 MR. MACK: The 50/50. And I wrote a
18 report which basically said that for those
19 people with an association that contractors are
20 choosing just about every carpenter on the job
21 site through the use of the 50/50 system, and
22 actually most of the people I've talked to on
23 the shop steward level have agreed with that,
24 in that my view was that it makes the 50/50
25 system not a viable system for the out-of-work
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2 list. I just mention that to you because it is
3 something that will occur.
4 It may affect, you know, carpenters
5 in the future but as for tonight, the most
6 important thing I say to you is to listen to my
7 questions and answer them to the very best of
8 your ability, truthfully and accurately because
9 the only real way that you can end up having a
10 problem with me is if you lie to me or seek to
11 deceive me, and so I'm going to mention to you
12 two important concepts, which I'm sure Steve
13 has talked to you about but really are the only
14 way that you and I are likely to have any
15 significant differences, which could affect
16 you; and one is because I am a court officer
17 and in a few moments you will be placed under
18 oath and your obligation will be to tell me the
19 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
20 truth.
21 In addition to that, because I am a
22 court officer, if you withhold information from
23 me or try to deceive me or mislead me for any
24 reason, you run the risk of being charged with
25 obstruction of justice, which means basically
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2 impeding the court or a court officer from
3 reaching an accurate and just result.
4 Now, I give that warning to everyone
5 and there have been a number of individuals
6 who's appeared here as to whom I have opinions
7 that they did lie.
8 I am not a prosecutor in this
9 situation. I'm an investigator. I have been a
10 prosecutor. I am not a defense lawyer here. I
11 am a defending lawyer.
12 My job is to gather what I believe
13 to be facts and describe them to the court and
14 make recommendations to the court or to
15 prosecutors.
16 So if you would make the mistake,
17 which I think you're far too intelligent and
18 capable of doing, in lying to me or trying to
19 deceive me, you run the risk that I will
20 discover that and usually the truth comes out
21 in time and basically run the risk that a
22 prosecutor when I send them a file will
23 determine that you should face criminal
24 charges.
25 I, of course, cannot predict what
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2 the judge will do. I cannot predict what a
3 prosecutor will do and I certainly can't
4 predict the outcome of any criminal prosecution
5 as the prosecutor in the Michael Jackson case
6 today as it boils down.
7 And the essence of what I say to
8 you, and I think to every witness that appears
9 before me, don't lie, don't deceive me, just
10 tell me the truth because the likelihood is,
11 and I want to say this, most of the shop
12 stewards that I question in the time who are
13 the subjects of complaints are excellent shop
14 stewards and do their work in an excellent way
15 and I don't want you to think that you're here
16 because I think you're a poor shop steward or I
17 think that you don't do your job professionally
18 on behalf of the union, and those aren't the
19 issues.
20 And, basically, the issues are my
21 effort at explaining to the judge how jobs
22 actually for shop stewards get assigned in this
23 day and age.
24 And the result of that report, which
25 is fairly, I have a pretty good idea what I'm
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2 going to say in it, may be to change the
3 system. I mean, change it in a way that's more
4 conducive to the interest of the union or to
5 the carpenters in it.
6 So what I say to you is that my
7 purpose here tonight is not in any way to be
8 critical of you or to recommend that you be
9 disciplined for anything or what have you. It
10 is to describe to me a system that may be
11 working and may not be working.
12 I mean, when I did the request
13 system my conclusion was it was a paperless
14 shuffle of less consequence and a waste of time
15 for everybody so people ought to think about it
16 very carefully, whether it means what it is
17 supposed to mean.
18 And my feeling is it's always going
19 to be where I'm going to come out on the shop
20 steward's side because of the shop stewards I
21 talked to and recently told me the truth about
22 how they got their, how they work the system
23 and how the system functions and what have you,
24 and my view is being an agent of Judge Haight,
25 whom I respect a great deal, I think he needs
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2 to understand how the system is working today
3 or not working to make it a more understandable
4 and maybe a fair system for everybody
5 involved.
6 And so I'd like you to see what's
7 happening today in that light and not be
8 defensive in the sense of my trying to point
9 out that you're not a good steward or that
10 you're doing things that you shouldn't be doing
11 but rather as an effort to explain to me how an
12 individual who possibly has a family to feed
13 gets into a system that they think they
14 understand or approve has to be utilized in
15 order to make sure that you do have work and
16 work that allows you to be employed, fully
17 employed. So I try to give you that
18 perspective in what's happening.
19 Now, as Mr. Issacs may have told
20 you, since this is not a proceeding of the
21 district council and it is my understanding
22 that you do not wish the district counsel to be
23 present tonight; is that correct, Mr. Issacs?
24 MR. ISSACS: That's correct.
25 MR. MACK: And so if you hear a
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2 question from me which you believe would tend
3 to personally incriminate you, I don't think
4 I'm going to ask a question like that, but
5 there have been carpenters and contractors here
6 who have sat where you're sitting and refused
7 to answer a question on the grounds on the
8 Fifth Amendment and said I don't want to answer
9 that question, Mr. Mack, because a truthful
10 answer might tend to incriminate me personally.
11 Now, I recognize I don't think I'm
12 going to ask a question of that nature tonight
13 but it is not what I think, it's what you think
14 and what's in your mind.
15 So if I should ask you a question
16 tonight in which you believe a truthful answer
17 might tend to incriminate you personally, I
18 would encourage you to speak to Mr. Issacs
19 outside the room and decide whether that's in
20 you're best interest to do so or not.
21 This is not a criminal matter.
22 This, as I say, I'm an investigator gathering
23 facts in an aid to try to help the Court to try
24 to understand what is going on on jobs sites to
25 get work and hold work and get work. That's my
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2 purpose here.
3 But if someone lies to me or tries
4 to obstruct justice, I will defer it. If
5 somebody commits a crime or thinks there is a
6 crime or asserts the Fifth amendment, what I
7 routinely do is simply defer the matter to the
8 prosecutor and say so and so took the Fifth. I
9 don't know what the problem is or what the
10 issue is here but I'm not permitted to go any
11 further and you decide, prosecutor, whether or
12 not you want to look at it or not is what it
13 boils down to.
14 And also, I would say this, I have
15 evidence. I gather evidence from a lot of
16 people. Many people call me. Some people I
17 know well. You'd be surprised some of the
18 people that call me and provide me information
19 because their public perspective and attitude
20 is very different from their private when they
21 talk to me, or Mr. Sobocienski, and I would say
22 if what we have done has been successful with
23 some contractors in pointing out they have run
24 cash jobs or, you know, they have basically
25 perverted the collective bargaining agreement,
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2 it's basically been with people who have
3 entrusted us with information of value.
4 If you do this, you will find out
5 that or if you look at this bank account, you
6 will find out that this bank account is a cash
7 account and for whatever reason we try to
8 follow-up with that, but we have many
9 opportunities to do that but sometimes we don't
10 have the time.
11 But my point here tonight is
12 basically I can infer, if you take the Fifth
13 Amendment, I can say, well, why is Mr. Garces
14 taking the Fifth Amendment on this issue? Is
15 there something he's not telling me or I should
16 count the evidence that I have that shows me
17 something. So I'm not encouraging you to take
18 the Fifth Amendment.
19 I'm saying if it is appropriate in
20 your mind to take it, you should talk to
21 Mr. Issacs about it and if you need it take it,
22 take it. It is certainly better to take it
23 then to lie to me and that's, in essence, what
24 you don't want to do. You want to ensure that
25 I get an accurate picture of what's going on.
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2 Now, a couple of other things that I
3 think are important. Mr. Issacs has
4 represented a number of others members of the
5 union and he's probably discussed this with
6 you, and although I don't remember, there are
7 so many of them that I don't remember each one,
8 it is at least conceivable that one of his
9 clients could be hurt or helped by something
10 you say is what it boils down to. That's a
11 theoretical legal matter.
12 Mr. Issacs' obligation to you
13 tonight as his client is to ensure that you get
14 the best legal advice possible. His job is to
15 represent you zealously and be a strong
16 advocate and see you get excellent advice,
17 whether it helps or hurts any other client;
18 and, also, since I am aware that the district
19 council may be paying some or all of his fees,
20 and I don't know whether they are or not, but
21 in many cases, in most cases they have agreed
22 to do so, there is a conflict, potential
23 conflict there, meaning that if you had
24 information that was critical of the district
25 council, and I'm just going to presume for the
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2 purposes I'm telling that the district council
3 is assisting you with Mrs. Issacs presence by
4 fee payment because that's been the case in
5 almost every other situation, there is nothing
6 wrong with that.
7 But the down side of that is that if
8 I ask you a question, and let's say somebody in
9 the district council, and I'm going to ask you
10 this question, told you how to answer a
11 question or told you something which you know
12 is untrue or is likely untrue but basically it
13 would be good for the district council if you
14 describe the situation the way they want you to
15 describe it, all right, and Mr. Issacs, you
16 know, he's being paid by the district council
17 so, you know, should he advise you to say
18 something knowing that it is untrue to protect
19 the district council who's paying his fee,
20 those issues come up in narcotics case and
21 organized crime cases all the time. All
22 right.
23 The point I'm making here is that
24 your obligation to the judge and to me and to
25 your oath is to tell the truth whether it helps
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2 the district council or not, and I don't think
3 anybody can figure out right now what helps and
4 what hurts the district council anyway, but
5 even though his fees may be paid or reimbursed
6 through the district council, his obligation
7 tonight is to see that you tell the truth no
8 matter who it helps or no matter who it hurts.
9 So I always ask the attorney if he
10 has considered his obligation under the ethical
11 rules and ethical considerations that govern
12 attorney's practice whether or not he feels
13 that he can represent you tonight without being
14 conflicted because of any understanding in the
15 future about fees being paid, and then I ask
16 you knowing that Mr. Isaacs, his fees are being
17 paid by the district council and that he has
18 represented other carpenters, whether you're
19 willing to proceed with him as your counsel
20 tonight.
21 Let me do that, Steve, and let me
22 turn to you and ask you that question.
23 MR. ISAACS: I have considered that
24 and I find no reason at all why I cannot
25 continue to represent Mr. Garces and as I go on
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2 that I have not thought about or considered
3 that and if it presents a conflict, I would
4 certainly ask to have the interview stopped and
5 proceed accordingly.
6 MR. MACK: Do you understand,
7 Mr. Garces?
8 MR. GARCES: Yes.
9 MR. MACK: What he just said?
10 MR. GARCES: Yes.
11 MR. MACK: And are you willing to
12 proceed with Mr. Issacs?
13 MR. GARCES: Yes, sir.
14 MR. MACK: And let me mention to you
15 what possible consequence this could have
16 because I've had a number of people come to me
17 at times and said what was all that stuff
18 about, conflict about? Why is that something
19 that I should have been concerned about?
20 And I will tell you in one of my
21 earlier jobs, if I thought the testimony was
22 going to be affected by the conflict, I would
23 go to the district court and on occasions have
24 been successful in disqualifying council
25 because they had a conflict, those that had
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2 been in criminal matters, and in my role as
3 independent investigator, I've decided that
4 that's your decision to make.
5 Once you're knowledgeable about it,
6 you proceed with a lawyer you wish, but there
7 are carpenters in the future who might have a
8 defense to a perjury prosecution on the basis,
9 gee, the lawyer who was sitting by my side, you
10 know, represented so and so and, therefore, I
11 felt that I couldn't speak, you know, anything
12 against that person even though it was the
13 truth, and that defense is taken away from you
14 once you waive your conflict because you've
15 basically understand that, and if there were
16 something somewhere down the road that you
17 protected the district council or protected
18 another human being or protected a contractor
19 or a business agent, you would not be able to
20 argue that the conflict of Mr. Issacs should
21 save you from that perjury or that obstruction
22 of justice.
23 Do you understand what I just said
24 to you?
25 MR. GARCES: Yes.
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2 MR. MACK: Do you have any questions
3 at all about that or anything you'd like to ask
4 that I can clarify or are you willing to
5 proceed?
6 MR. GARCES: Yes.
7 MR. MACK: Okay, fine. Forgive me
8 for going through all of this.
9 MR. GARCES: You have to. You have
10 to.
11 MR. MACK: I don't want you to be
12 upset with me.
13 MR. GARCES: I don't know any of
14 this. I'm here because you called me and I'm
15 here.
16 MR. MACK: I appreciate that. Let
17 me say this, as we proceed tonight, any time
18 you wish to take a break, any time you wish to
19 confer with Mr. Issacs outside about what's
20 going on here or what's happening, all you have
21 to do is tell me.
22 My job, and if I didn't do it the
23 judge would be upset with me, is to ensure that
24 I'm fair, ask simple questions and respond to
25 questions that you have about what's happening.
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2 Now, let's see if there is anything
3 else I want to deal with. Okay.
4 So I think I should tell you that
5 you are one of many shop stewards that have
6 been in here as to whom there have been
7 questions about how they got the particular
8 jobs.
9 Now, one of the things that has
10 happened recently with a number of people who
11 have acted as shop stewards is that they have
12 blamed one business agent or another business
13 agent for particular, what I call skill set
14 changes or out-or-work list violations and
15 things of that nature; and what I say to them
16 is the following, if that's the truth, fine, is
17 what it boils down to but, on the other hand,
18 if it is more than one business agent or more
19 than one individual, make sure that you do your
20 best to be as precise as possible.
21 I mean, certain questions have
22 arisen in the past, gee, how did I know how to
23 put this skill on. You have a number of these
24 situations.
25 MR. GARCES: Yeah, I know I do.
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2 MR. MACK: And so what is sort of
3 evolved these days is one agent or another
4 agent identified as the person who has assisted
5 or made the advice and what have you.
6 Now, what I say to you is this,
7 listen to the question, be complete and
8 accurate in your answer, recognizing that some
9 things would have occurred long ago.
10 Things have changed and in some
11 cases what's important for the judge is to
12 understand what a person of your experience and
13 skill has had to do in terms of understanding
14 the system and working within the system that's
15 involved, and my feeling is the more accurate
16 the description of what's happened and what's
17 going on will make it more likely that the
18 system will change in a way that's consistent
19 with what the realities of the job site are,
20 and so I redouble my plea to you to listen to
21 the question and be complete and accurate in
22 your testimony.
23 Now, the handsome gentleman here
24 sitting to my left is Don Sobocienski who I
25 know you've talked to on the phone sometime.
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2 He's the brain of the investigator outfit.
3 He has gathered information from
4 time to time and may ask several questions that
5 I'm too dense to figure out how it does but on
6 the whole I will do most of the questions.
7 I will tell and you give you some
8 warning that during the evening, and I'm going
9 to give you certain documents that may be of
10 value to you that will assist you in going
11 through it, I will ask you the question: Are
12 there suggestions, ideas or points of view that
13 you would like to deliver to Judge Haight
14 through me as the Court's agent in whatever
15 time remains that he should consider in terms
16 of changes or things which you think are unfair
17 or not working properly, and I have found that
18 many, many people, especially, you've been,
19 what, a carpenter for how long?
20 MR. GARCES: 22 years. Last
21 September. 23.
22 MR. MACK: So my own view would be
23 that there is a whole lot of wisdom and
24 experience that you have that would be of value
25 in terms of the judge understanding what the
26
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2 realities are and where the disconnects are or
3 where the problems are.
4 So some people have said I don't
5 want to get involved and, you know, I just want
6 to get out, get in and out of here as soon as
7 possible. I can understand that.
8 MR. GARCES: I don't blame them.
9 MR. MACK: I don't blame them.
10 MR. GARCES: Work hard all day, it
11 burns you out. I'm usually sleeping now just
12 to let you know.
13 MR. MACK: I will try to be
14 efficient. The reason I schedule these at this
15 hour has been so I don't take a day of work
16 away from someone and that's been the purpose
17 of it. So most people in your position have
18 said I will tolerate whatever I have to put up
19 with, just don't take away a day of work from
20 me, but I'm always amenable to making those
21 changes to comply with the request of the
22 witness or the attorney.
23 So I'm sorry to have you hear on an
24 evening and I wanted to go through this and it
25 seems most carpenters would prefer to get the
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2 days work and come in and just tolerate me for
3 the few hours that it is and just go on. Okay.
4 Are there any questions or anything
5 that you would like to ask me before we begin
6 or anything you would like to say before we
7 start?
8 MR. GARCES: No.
9 MR. MACK: And, Mr. Issacs, I know
10 you've heard it all before, is there anything I
11 missed or anything you think I should say that
12 I didn't say or anything you would like to
13 say?
14 MR. ISSACS: No. Thank you.
15 MR. MACK: Mr. Sobocienski, anything
16 at all that you think ought to be mentioned
17 that I haven't mentioned?
18 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: No at this time.
19 MR. MACK: We will take a break.
20 The hardest working person is the gentleman
21 sitting to my right and to your left. Short of
22 that, I think we will get started and go
23 through our questions and let me ask that the
24 witness be sworn.
25 RICHARD GARCES,
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2 having been first duly sworn by the Notary
3 Public (Michael Williams), was examined and
4 testified as follows:
5 (Exhibit RG-1 through RG-9 marked
6 for identification.)
7 EXAMINATION BY
8 MR. MACK:
9 Q What I would like to do, because I
10 found it is -- generally, I have a number of
11 documents which have been marked with exhibit
12 tags and they are RG-1 through a number, all
13 right, and all that means is that's for you,
14 reflecting you, and I'd like to give you those
15 now and you can take a few moments and look and
16 see what I have because I don't know what
17 preparation you've gone through but these will
18 be the documents I will be using.
19 A Sure.
20 Q So let me hand you what has been
21 marked as RG-3, which is something that I'll
22 ask you about which is basically a collection
23 of your pension benefit records and Mr. Issacs
24 can go through that with you on that. RG-5,
25 which is a reflection of the dispatches. RG-2,
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2 which is basically your work referral history,
3 which is a record of sort of every action on
4 the job at a work list and then something which
5 I think you will be able to enlighten me on,
6 which is RG-4, which is a record of all your
7 hold calls.
8 A Yeah.
9 Q No question about it?
10 A No, no problem. When you're working
11 on your house, you have to do it.
12 Q Now, first of all, let me show you
13 what's been marked as RG-1 and ask you if this
14 is a copy of the notice requiring your
15 appearance today?
16 A Yes, sir, that's it.
17 Q Now, would you gentlemen like a few
18 moments just to review what's there and put
19 them in some order or I can just keep going?
20 MR. ISSACS: No, we can proceed. We
21 have had an opportunity to look at or -- either
22 the work history and some of the referrals.
23 Q Let me ask you some fundamental
24 questions and Mr. , Garces you should know, in
25 essence, there is nothing that you're
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2 undergoing tonight basically that many others
3 haven't undergone is what it boils down to.
4 My first question is pretty normal
5 has anyone other than Mr. Issacs given you any
6 advise or guidance about your appearance here
7 today?
8 A No.
9 Q Has anyone given you any suggestions
10 about how to testify --
11 A No.
12 Q -- or topics to avoid or include?
13 The answer is no?
14 A No, no, sir.
15 Q Now, I want to ask some fairly broad
16 questions to start with. I guess the first
17 one, let's say in the last five years, have you
18 been offered cash by any contractor in order to
19 affect your service as a union carpenter?
20 A Like my contractor or somebody that
21 comes on the job?
22 Q Either way.
23 A Yes, somebody comes on the job, yes.
24 Q So could you give me some idea of
25 who and when and what that was.
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2 A You want to know something, I don't
3 remember the name. I know it was a concrete
4 company and they had like underpinning. I
5 forgot. I think it was, what was it, on 34th
6 and 9th I think. I don't know the company's
7 name, but the guy says, listen, I'm going to
8 have a few guys here and I says, listen I can't
9 do that for you. You know, I can't do that and
10 then what do you call the business at, I think,
11 what's his name? Maurice McGrath.
12 He came. He came down and he told
13 him that it wasn't going to happen.
14 So what they did, they had the one
15 guy come with the labor because he was lying
16 underneath. It was like underneath the
17 sidewalk. So it was like a different local,
18 but I stopped the guy because I didn't know
19 the, you know, like, this union does that. I
20 thought it was just our union does that. But
21 then it just stopped and then Maurice took care
22 of the problem because he came to me. He
23 didn't ask Maurice. He just asked me. I told
24 him no. I can't do that. It's not going to
25 happen.
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2 Q Let me do what my normal routine is,
3 can you give me some idea what year this
4 occurred?
5 A Oh, God. '95.
6 Q It was that far ago?
7 A Yeah, like '95, something like that,
8 and that was the time. I told him I'm not
9 going to do it.
10 Q Let me refine my question now, and
11 not that that's not important and I applaud
12 your unwillingness to do so, but in the time,
13 let's say January 1, 2000 up until today --
14 A No.
15 Q Let me just make sure I get the
16 question out.
17 A No, it was before you stepped into
18 the picture. It was different back then but
19 now I would never, from now on, no.
20 Q Let me make sure I have it right.
21 From January 1, 2000, that's like
22 basically, let's say, give or take,
23 four-and-a-half years or actually five, so it
24 is almost five years or it is five years, has
25 anyone offered you cash to affect your work as
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2 a carpenter on any job site?
3 A No.
4 Q Now, and would it be fair to say
5 that you have not received any cash for doing
6 it on a job site?
7 A No, no, no. I like my benefits. I
8 like my pension.
9 Q Good, as you should.
10 A Yes because I work hard for what I
11 work for and that's what I want.
12 Q I compliment you on that. I wish
13 all the people that were here share that
14 sentiment. Not everyone does.
15 A Some people have weak hearts.
16 Q That's why you're here because I
17 think you can help me do my job.
18 Have you from any time, again, from
19 January 1, 2005 to the present signed a shop
20 steward report which you knew not to be
21 accurate?
22 A No.
23 Q In other words, what I'm getting at,
24 and the only reason I asked this question is
25 I'd had some issues with it, I'm not talking
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2 exactly to the 15 minute or to the half hour,
3 but have there been any occasions since January
4 1, 2005 where you executed a shop steward
5 report as the shop steward in which you knew
6 the hours that the carpenters reported there
7 were not accurate?
8 A To my knowledge, you know, because
9 I'm not perfect.
10 Q No one is.
11 A And what I know and what I look at
12 the other form and sheets, I try to look at
13 their times and to find out who gets paid or
14 whatever because I insist, and not that I know
15 of. Maybe one or two might have liked slipped
16 by that I didn't know but my knowledge of what
17 I write down is the time that I know that they
18 left or they didn't, to my knowledge.
19 Q And that's a good answer.
20 A Thank you.
21 Q And let me say this, is there anyone
22 that has worked on your job sites for that
23 period, again, it may be five-and-a-half years
24 --
25 A Yes, sir.
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2 Q -- from January 1, 2000 in which you
3 believe there was an individual being paid who
4 was not present on the job site? In other
5 words, to say it no show on the job someone who
6 was getting --
7 A Whoever is on the job, I card them
8 first.
9 Q Good.
10 A And make sure they go on the list
11 and I was never approached to take a man off or
12 on a sheet.
13 Q Okay.
14 A So whatever I wrote down is my
15 knowledge of seeing them on the job working.
16 Q Right.
17 A I put them down and I didn't, what
18 do you call it, them telling me to.
19 Q Right.
20 A No. Whoever is on that job they are
21 getting their benefits.
22 Q And they're having their hours
23 reported accurate?
24 A Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
25 Q Now, what about a situation where
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2 people like work on a weekend or at night or
3 things of that nature, have you ever been a job
4 where you felt the contractor -- let me ask the
5 question --
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q -- or carpenters involved have tried
8 to avoid your scrutiny; in other words, by
9 doing work in the time that you were not around
10 to record their hours and presence accurately?
11 A To me, that I know, because I've
12 been on jobs where, I don't think so, you know,
13 in my knowledge, I don't think so but it could
14 have happened. I'm not sure because.
15 Q You finished your answer?
16 A Because, you know, sometimes I will
17 be on small jobs and you know the detail but if
18 you're on like a big job and everything, all
19 hell is breaking lose you don't know. But, in
20 my knowledge, I don't think so. I don't think
21 they did that because I made sure the foreman
22 had my phone number.
23 He knew how to contact me and if any
24 work was done that was new or anybody told me I
25 would report it to me, but it really never
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2 happened in that period of time.
3 Q So, to the best of your knowledge
4 and belief, you feel that you have accurately
5 captured the identities and the hours of the
6 carpenters working the job sites in which you
7 were a shop steward from January 1, 2000 to the
8 present?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Now, let me ask another broad
11 question, and recognizing I'm doing this
12 because I found that often it simplifies and
13 shortens the evening, although Mr. Issacs likes
14 to spend hours in the deep, late at night, I
15 keep trying to use devices to be more
16 efficient, have there been any occasions again
17 in the last five years where you were advised
18 to either alter your skills that were listed,
19 either by putting new skills on or taking
20 skills off or making yourself available by
21 telephone by a business agent or business
22 manager in order to assist you in getting a
23 particular job?
24 A Well, me, I'm in a situation where
25 when I put down my skills, I do everything.
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2 Q Right.
3 A Because I do everything from drywall
4 to finish wood work, concrete. I do
5 everything, and I do it like if I know
6 something is going to go on like in union
7 meetings, I find out.
8 So I say, well, this job might be
9 coming up so I will take a chance and I'll put
10 that on. But an individual telling me, no, no,
11 it's just word of mouth as a union, as when you
12 go to a union meeting. You don't know.
13 When you go to union meetings they
14 says the guys is a company guy that works for a
15 company, listen two months down the road there
16 might be a job and stuff like that so you pick
17 it up and, you know, you do what you can to
18 just survive in like this very cruel business.
19 It's cut throat and it's relative,
20 you know, like do you know who knows who and
21 who knows who and, you know, if you don't know
22 nobody, you're out of work.
23 Q I want to try to capture your wisdom
24 and experience on those topics tonight so I can
25 do them justice when I describe them, all
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2 right.
3 A That's how you find out in union
4 meetings, when people come in, old timers or
5 shop stewards or they talk to company guys and
6 they find out, and that's how you really find
7 out really because nobody else is going to tell
8 you because, you know, if you're not, if you
9 don't know nobody, not knowing nobody but, you
10 know, you just ask.
11 The guy says, well, another three
12 months or another two months maybe something
13 going on, you know and maybe you know this is
14 concrete or maybe they're doing finish work and
15 I do everything. Anything to get a job, you
16 know, except shovel manure I'm not going to do,
17 but any construction-wise I can do, and if I
18 can't do it, they lay me off, and that's how
19 this business is.
20 Q Now, let me ask you this here, your
21 fire stop certificate, do I have -- did you
22 bring me something concerning that?
23 A I think so. It should be there.
24 MR. MACK: Let's mark this as RG-10
25 and let me just show you what should be a copy
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2 of the cards that you gave me so you can take a
3 look at it to just make sure I have everything
4 that you brought.
5 (Exhibit RG-10 marked for
6 identification.)
7 A Do I have my fire stop there?
8 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: I didn't see it.
9 A That must have been in the wash.
10 Q So what I want to know, on your fire
11 stop, where did you get that certification?
12 A Down at the district council and the
13 two instructors he worked, I think he worked
14 for Donaldson when I worked for them. I can't
15 recall his name. I seen him on the train, too,
16 and I say hello, but I took my certificate with
17 him and it was an evening class.
18 Q And what was the basis for your
19 decision to take that class?
20 A Because what they were talking about
21 in the union, like they were speaking that this
22 would be an upcoming thing because laborers
23 were doing it. You know, everybody was trying
24 to get into this.
25 So I figured, well, fire stop is,
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2 like, you know, if you're putting in the cork,
3 the red cork and the mineral fibers, that's not
4 bad but when you're skinning a side of the
5 building in the cold and I'm not a young puppy
6 and it hurts. That's why I was on a job with
7 fire stop and I couldn't do it because it was
8 so cold and my knees were hurting and I had to
9 tell them this one day and that's it because I
10 couldn't.
11 Q Could you just explain to me, in
12 other words, if you have a fire stop job, what
13 do you have to do?
14 A Okay, fire stop there is a few
15 things. There is in between floors where you
16 have to put in insulation in between the floors
17 where the metal bracket that goes up to hook
18 the insulation so it doesn't fall to the next
19 floor and then the skin, what happens, the skin
20 gets all covered where the brackets where the
21 bolts hold and then there is another insulation
22 that goes on top of that that has to be all
23 taped up and it is all cut.
24 Everything is predone and then there
25 is another one where the electricians usually
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2 do this, but it also depends, but the risers,
3 they go up through the building and they have
4 to be insulated with mineral fiber and then
5 with this red hilti, H-I-L-T-I. Everybody
6 makes it, and then there is the other one
7 that's penetrating into a firewall which is
8 double, double wall.
9 It could be a three and five eighth
10 stud and it has the mineral fiber in it, but if
11 the hole, like steamfitters they usually use a
12 bulk hammer and they're not going to cut it so
13 you have to put in this mineral fiber around
14 it.
15 Then you use this red cork, like a
16 hilti or whatever and then you use like a
17 spatulate and, you know, you could do that, and
18 then there's another one where it's a spray,
19 where it's a spray and you use it on a
20 firewall. Usually, it is all firewall.
21 Everything to go direct to the ceiling. So you
22 have to stop the smoke or the flame to stop
23 from the monocoat on the cue deck.
24 Q I don't know what all that means.
25 You can keep going.
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2 A Because I could teach it and then
3 with the concrete, what you want to do is you
4 want to spray the stuff.
5 Usually, it has an extension or you
6 go on a scaffold and you spray it from the
7 sheetrock to the corner. You have to have like
8 at least a quarter of an inch or half an inch
9 thickness so it can stop because what the
10 material does when a fire occurs it expands,
11 okay.
12 Q Okay.
13 A And when they do the skin between
14 the floors, you really don't have to put the
15 red silicone because the mineral, the mineral
16 fiber will stop, suffocate the smoke coming
17 up. So you really don't. That's fire stop
18 also without the --
19 Q Let me ask you this, did anyone ever
20 advise you or where did you get the idea that
21 you should go for a fire stop certificate?
22 A It was in the union meeting where
23 they recommended, John Greeney was talking
24 about an upcoming, you know, new field in fire
25 stop.
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2 Q Okay.
3 A So I says I might as well do fire
4 stop because it's easy. I'm getting older and,
5 you know, it's not bad because the machine is
6 like, because I teach when I'm a steward, I
7 teach the kids how to use it and how to clean
8 it because you have to clean it.
9 It takes you like 15 minutes to
10 clean the machine because you need like two
11 buckets of fresh water to go through the
12 machine because this stuff when it clogs in you
13 have to take everything apart and you ruin the
14 machine, too, with the motor and all that, but
15 you have to really clean that machine and I
16 teach the apprentices because usually you put
17 an apprentice, first, second year so it doesn't
18 cost the contractor that much money.
19 Q Now, how many of hours was your fire
20 stop certificate?
21 A I think it was eight hours. I think
22 it was two days. Two days. It was like one
23 day. I forgot. I don't even know the day. I
24 know it was two days.
25 I have it but I think when I wash
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2 because sometimes you get home, sometimes you
3 do the wash, because I'm not married and I do
4 my own wash. I'm not Susie homemaker and in
5 that plastic and it just swish.
6 Q Now, what I'm going to do, have you
7 ever been charged by the district council for
8 writing a list or for any infraction?
9 A No, no, sir.
10 Q So let me ask another general
11 question.
12 My review of your work referral
13 history gives me reason to believe that there
14 have been occasions when you were on the
15 out-of-work list and working at the same time,
16 so --
17 A No, no.
18 Q Has that ever occurred?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q So we will go through it pretty much
21 in chronological order.
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And if you think that your benefit
24 history is inaccurate, all right, because all I
25 know is what I see on your benefit history.
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2 A Yes.
3 Q And you feel that if I were to get
4 the employee records, the payroll records, that
5 they would reflect something different that are
6 there --
7 A Yeah, sure.
8 Q -- you let me know.
9 A Sure. There is one company that
10 did. It was National Acoustics.
11 Q Right.
12 A They overpaid me I think, like I
13 worked two days I think in Madison Square
14 Garden. It might have been three days. I'm
15 not sure, at the convention.
16 Q Okay.
17 A And then I got my stamps and stuff
18 and all of a sudden a month later I get another
19 35 hours, and I said, well, I only had like 75
20 hours that quarter of working so I was like,
21 well, I'm not being a crook or nothing but I
22 really needed it.
23 Q What I think the best thing to do is
24 I always ask these general questions and then
25 we will start, and my feeling is you just
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2 explain to me what the situation is, where I'm
3 wrong or where I've made mistakes.
4 A I think that was the only, the only
5 time that that happened and then I think it was
6 another time a while back when I worked with
7 Benson Drywall.
8 I think I worked but they took 28
9 hours from my check and I tried to fight it but
10 I never got it back and it wasn't that I was on
11 the list. They owed me.
12 Q So if we get to a situation where
13 you believe there is a need for a correction
14 because, one, if I need to get the payroll
15 records from a particular company.
16 A Sure.
17 Q I can get them.
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q So I don't want you to agree to
20 anything if you feel that legitimately it is
21 not accurate. I will also say this, I want you
22 to think about it because what I say to
23 everybody is if you generally think this is a
24 mistake by the company, I will subpoena the
25 records, but if you know in your heart of
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2 hearts that you may have been working at the
3 same time I won't put you through the exercise
4 of going to the judge so I would ask you the
5 same thing.
6 A No, because I play by the rules.
7 Q So you and I should get along fine
8 then.
9 MR. MACK: Why don't we take five
10 minutes right now because I have to make a
11 phone call and then go straight through and
12 we'll go there.
13 (A break from the record was taken.)
14 A Okay.
15 Q I want to refer you to some specific
16 questions here that at least have come up, so I
17 think the best way is to look, to start within,
18 I think where I have picked up is April, 1999
19 and I seem to be exact that you were working in
20 that time period for JP Phillips?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And so I see you were added to the
23 out-or-work list on August 5, 1999 and it
24 appears to me that during that time period at
25 least benefits were being reported for you
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2 beyond August 5, 1999?
3 A August 5th? I didn't, to my
4 knowledge, every time I get laid off, I put my
5 name on the list.
6 Q Right.
7 A And I play it square and that's it.
8 I don't put my name before the list. I don't
9 recall that because I don't recall that I did
10 that because I wouldn't do that.
11 Q So what I want you to do is think,
12 if you can, on 99, that's a long time ago.
13 A But I don't remember. I know I'm
14 pretty sure that I wouldn't do that.
15 Q But I want you, I want you to give
16 each one thought.
17 A I'm pretty sure but you know that's
18 '90 -- I'm having a hard time last week or the
19 week after but to me I'm pretty sure that my,
20 how I am, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't put
21 my name --
22 Q So let me tell you something that
23 happens with many of your fellow carpenters.
24 Let's just talk in general.
25 The way the 50/50 or request system
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2 works today, many people put their names on the
3 out-or-work list, you know, in the afternoon
4 and they never lose an hour of work, all
5 right. And so there are many, many examples of
6 that. So I've also found some shop stewards
7 who basically when they know that they're going
8 to be, that a job is going to end, even though
9 they're working for a few days or a week beyond
10 the time period because they know the job is
11 coming to an end, they put themselves on the
12 out-or-work list because they want to be
13 eligible for the next job?
14 A Yeah, yeah. It does happen. I'm
15 telling you it does happen.
16 Q So the question, I want you to think
17 carefully because there are some times here
18 that it looks like from your benefit records,
19 this is not a good example, but there are some
20 where it appears that you are working at the
21 time that you're on the out-or-work list?
22 A To my knowledge, I don't do that. I
23 don't do that and there must be a mistake or
24 maybe they put my name on it for some reason
25 but I don't do that.
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2 Q My compliments to you because not
3 everybody can say that, and when I get to a
4 situation let me point it out to you and you
5 think about it and give me your best answer and
6 move on.
7 A That is my best answer. That is my
8 best answer.
9 Q Now, on August 13, 1999, these are
10 the types of situations that always caused me
11 to pay attention and the documents that you
12 probably need to help me or to help yourself
13 are contained in RG-5 and RG-2, and the date
14 I'm looking at, and this is something that
15 always gets my interest and we will isolate the
16 job I'm talking about. I'm going to go pretty
17 much in chronological order with the hope that
18 that makes it easier for you.
19 MR. ISSACS: We're talking about
20 August 13th of 1999, right?
21 MR. MACK: Correct.
22 MR. ISSACS: RG-2. What I have may
23 be incomplete because it only deals with 2002.
24 MR. MACK: Maybe I'm giving you the
25 wrong exhibit. Maybe you've got a defective
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2 one. That's true. So I apologize to you
3 here. Let me just make sure that there is not
4 a more complete one.
5 Q Here's what I'm going to ask about
6 it. We will get you the complete job referral
7 history.
8 Let me tell you I will read to you
9 what it says and you tell me the significance
10 and we will get you the full copy of what it
11 is.
12 One thing that Steve knows is that
13 the times that are shown are California time on
14 the job referral history, okay.
15 A I don't understand.
16 Q In other words, every time there is
17 a, shall we say, an entry on your job referral
18 history, the operator who was recording the
19 data on skills add or on the out of the work
20 list or what have you, the computer records the
21 time that that entry is made, all right, and
22 because the computer functions in California,
23 it is always three hours earlier than the
24 actual time.
25 A Oh, okay.
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2 Q So what you do have, I think the
3 actual dispatch, Steve is, in RG-5, all right,
4 and basically what happens on August 13 is that
5 you add the skills of protection and foreman
6 layout?
7 A Yes.
8 Q On the morning of August 13th, and
9 that very afternoon, about five hours later,
10 you are referred as a shop steward to Crosstown
11 Interior with those two skills being the
12 primary motivators for you being assigned to
13 that.
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q What I'm asking you if you can
16 explain to me what happened there.
17 A Yes, sir. I will tell you exactly.
18 God bless his soul. He's dead now, but Sean
19 Murray who was a foreman for that, he was a
20 very close friend of mine in, you know, we were
21 talking about maybe a week, a week ago, a week
22 before that I think because I remember because
23 he was a very good, very good person. Like
24 he'd help anybody that needed, tried to get
25 work and tried to help them, and he asked and
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2 he goes like this, Rich, you're on the list.
3 Yeah, I'm on the list but I haven't
4 got nothing.
5 He said, listen, I'm going to put in
6 this job and, listen, maybe you'll get it,
7 maybe you won't.
8 Q Right.
9 A And so I says, okay, you know. I
10 really need the job because, you know, I was
11 out for a while.
12 So he told me, listen, just put
13 this. If you get it. You get it. If you
14 don't, what the hell, and that's what happened
15 because he was like, you know, what do they
16 call, drinking buddies like that. He was a
17 good hearted person.
18 Q All right. What was his name again,
19 Sean Murray?
20 A Sean Murray but he's dead now.
21 Q But did he -- I'm sorry. You finish
22 your answer. I don't mean to interrupt you.
23 A But that's what happened on that job
24 because it was the museum across the street of
25 Modern Art, so he says, Rich, you're out of
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2 work. You're a good worker. I want you to
3 come. I don't want a bum from the, that
4 doesn't know nothing to screw me.
5 Q Right.
6 A He says take a chance and if this
7 happens, it happens. If it doesn't, at least I
8 tried, you know. So that's that's. I remember
9 that. That's the one I remember.
10 Q Good for you, but let me just try to
11 make sure.
12 Did he suggest that you put down
13 those skills?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Protection foreman layout?
16 A He's the one that put it in. He's
17 the one that put it in and it's because in this
18 business it's very tough, and if you can get
19 outside help, like foreman's like, especially
20 people who work and they know how you work.
21 That's the only, like, that's the help I try to
22 get from people outside. It's, you know.
23 Q All right, so basically the foreman
24 here. Now, how did -- let me start again.
25 Did John Greedy have any role in
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2 this assignment here, this referral?
3 A No, no. Greeney had nothing to do,
4 none of those guys had nothing to do with it.
5 It was Sean and he -- because I know Sean.
6 Q Well, Sean had to call in to 608
7 basically for the job?
8 A The requirements or whatever and I
9 got it from him and he told me. He just says,
10 listen, just do this. If you get it, you get
11 it. If you don't, you don't.
12 He just didn't want to have a stiff
13 to come in and, you know, that's what happens.
14 It's a shame.
15 Q Let me say to you that, you know,
16 I'm sure by reputation or whatever you are an
17 outstanding shop steward. I can understand why
18 a contractor would want to have somebody with
19 your skills and work ethics there.
20 A Thank you.
21 Q So I don't want you to take anything
22 that I ask you to indicate that you aren't and
23 I think I said that earlier this evening. I
24 just want to make sure because when I look I
25 want to understand how the system is working.
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2 A Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
3 Q So if I understand what you're
4 telling me, Sean Murray was the foreman for
5 Crosstown?
6 A Yes. He was the foreman on that
7 job.
8 Q Okay.
9 A If you call up the company, he was
10 the foreman and God bless his soul. He had a
11 heart attack when he was on AOL.
12 When I worked for Nastasi and he
13 came down and I went down to see him at lunch.
14 Hey, how are you doing? Then all of a sudden
15 the next day he had a heart attack and wasn't
16 feeling well and I said, God. I wish there
17 were more men like him.
18 Q He was outstanding?
19 A He was a man's man. He was a
20 gentleman. He had a heart. He had a heart.
21 Q And would it be fair to say that he
22 was the one that recommended that you put
23 those?
24 A Yes, sir, he was the one.
25 Q And was Crosstown Interiors on the
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2 AOL building?
3 A Yeah. They were downstairs though.
4 They had Hugo. I think Hugo. They did the
5 Hugo store down there and I didn't even know it
6 until I went by at lunch.
7 Oh, Sean, how are you doing and all
8 this and we talked and like I think about three
9 weeks later, man, he just had a heart attack
10 and that was it.
11 Q So that explains that.
12 Now, I see you go back on the
13 out-or-work list, and this is somewhat unfair,
14 do you want to wait until you get a copy of the
15 list?
16 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: It will be here in
17 a minute.
18 A Let's just keep ongoing.
19 Q So I have you going back on the
20 out-or-work list on September 27, 1999, all
21 right, and at least it appears that during that
22 time period your benefit records reflect work,
23 if you take a look at that.
24 A What was the date again?
25 Q September 27. You'll see it when
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2 you get the exhibit.
3 A That's September 28th, right?
4 Q Yes, and then there is another entry
5 for Island Acoustics on 9/30/99?
6 A No, no. They probably owed me
7 stamps. Usually sometimes that happens when
8 they owe you stamps.
9 Q Okay.
10 A And then they give you your stamps
11 and the hours because they probably owed me
12 that.
13 Q So I want to you think about it.
14 A I'm positive because I didn't work
15 those two companies like that, no. No way.
16 Q Here's what I want you to think
17 about.
18 A Yes.
19 Q You go on the out-or-work list on
20 September 27, 1999, okay.
21 MR. ISAACS: You can't tell that by
22 that.
23 Q And, basically, there is at least,
24 and since you have such a good memory --
25 A No, only with friends.
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2 Q So I want to give you a corrected
3 and more thorough RG-2. So let me replace this
4 and I apologize to you for doing that.
5 A They owed me those hours because
6 they owed me my stamps. That's probably what
7 happened when I put my name on the list, then I
8 got that job from Island and that's when it was
9 really busy and that's why. It isn't because I
10 worked because they owed me the stamps and they
11 told me to wait and that's what happened. I
12 didn't work right then two jobs, no. Couldn't
13 have happened.
14 Q So basically just to make this
15 clear, when you added yourself on September 27,
16 1999, you were legitimately out of work?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q You were not working at the time?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Now, shortly after that, you have a
21 job with Island Acoustics?
22 A Yes, yes, yes.
23 Q So did you know about that job
24 coming up?
25 A Oh, yeah. Everybody knew that job,
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2 42nd Street. That was like the, everybody was
3 talking about it, like all the men at the hall.
4 Q What were they saying?
5 A Not hall, I mean at the meetings
6 because I go to every meeting and you get to
7 know people. You get to know foremen and there
8 was this kid that lived near my house who was a
9 foreman for them now. I forgot his name. He
10 came to meetings and you have that job.
11 I said, oh, yeah. He said where it
12 is. I said Madam Tussauds. I was like, man, I
13 would like to see some of those wax figures but
14 I never thought. It was like you don't think.
15 You just say, you know, I'm going to get a job
16 maybe. It is a flip of a coin. That's all it
17 is. You don't know what you're going to get.
18 You're lucky, you're lucky.
19 Q So let's look at this job because
20 your ability to get outstanding jobs it may
21 simply be jealousy.
22 A Outstanding jobs. I think I had
23 like three or four of them. That's it. Not
24 that many.
25 Q Well, that's why it is important for
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2 you to come in because often you can't learn
3 just from the documents.
4 A Yeah.
5 Q You need to talk to the person
6 involved.
7 A That's why we're here.
8 Q That's why we're here.
9 So how was this job described at the
10 union meeting in other words?
11 A No 42nd. It was developing all
12 that. They were talking about Madam Tussauds.
13 They were talking about moving the theatre, the
14 movie theatre that they used, what do you call,
15 Laurel and Hardy, to move it, you know. It was
16 on Channel 13. So they moved all that.
17 They're talking about this big
18 development that's supposed to generate so many
19 jobs and so many this and that and everybody
20 was like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you
21 know, trying to do whatever they can get inside
22 from people working for the company or people
23 working in the area.
24 Q Right. So what do you do? How do
25 you sort of get in a situation where to
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2 increase the chance that you will be one to get
3 a job?
4 A I tried to talk to the people who
5 work in the company and stuff like that and I
6 ask them what's going to be involved. What's
7 involved? I don't know, because they can
8 mostly tell you because they talk to their
9 foremen and their foremen talk to them and
10 then, all of a sudden, they talk at the
11 meeting.
12 You have a few beers and you just
13 gather around and then you say, well, maybe I
14 get a shot. It was me and probably another
15 hundred guys trying to do the shot and I just
16 got lucky.
17 It could have been, I could have
18 been on another job. It happens. I'm working
19 or I'm not working. It's all like this. It is
20 all the flip. You get lucky or you can answer
21 the phone or you can be in the bathroom and the
22 phone rings and it's tough. It is luck. You
23 have to be lucky and that's all it is. It's
24 all luck.
25 Q On this particular job, the only
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2 request of skill was drywall is what it boils
3 down to which obviously a lot of people have
4 drywall as a skill?
5 A It was just luck. I was in shock.
6 I was like what. I was --
7 Q Did you have any conversations with
8 any business agent about this job?
9 A No, sir. No, sir.
10 Q At all?
11 A We talked but it was never with
12 skills or nothing. It was about like the
13 bringing up of 42nd Street and how it's going
14 to generate a lot of work and that's all. It's
15 not like somebody is going to give me a job,
16 you know.
17 Q Did any of the business agents give
18 you advice as to when the job was going --
19 A No.
20 Q -- going to call or be opened or
21 called in or things of that nature?
22 A No. That was a shot in the dark
23 that one.
24 Q Now, that job lasted approximately
25 how long?
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2 A Maybe like a year and a month. That
3 was one of my longest jobs that, that was like
4 I was very happy. It was the first time that I
5 experienced a job like that that there wasn't
6 one straight wall. There was all angle walls.
7 It was a challenge just to go there.
8 It wasn't that many men. It was
9 mostly all company guys and probably three guys
10 from the hall, like from the list, and that's
11 all it was, but it was very interesting on how
12 they built that.
13 Q Now, was there anything about the
14 way Island Acoustics handled that work that was
15 unusual or could be in violation of the
16 collective bargaining agreement?
17 A No -- yes, I had a problem with
18 Steve Kaye, like a super for them. He wanted
19 the men to be at their stations at 7 o'clock.
20 Q Right.
21 A And I told him, I don't want to tell
22 you the exact words. I told him to go fuck
23 himself and the guys are going to be where
24 their bang box is and they're going to start to
25 pick up tools where the bang box is and start
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2 at seven. That's how it is supposed to be.
3 You start at seven. You start where
4 your bang box is, take out your tools and go to
5 work. You don't take out your tools at 10 to 7
6 and then expect -- you're not getting paid for
7 it. The guys get paid from 7 to 2:30 and so I
8 had a very big argument with him with that.
9 Q And how was that resolved?
10 A Well, I think a few fucks I gave him
11 and, you know, and he seen it my way.
12 Q Did he back up in other words?
13 A Well, he cursed me out and called me
14 everything in the book but I stand for the
15 men. I'm for the men. Nobody is going to take
16 advantage of work. We work hard enough. We
17 don't need to be treated like slaves, you know.
18 Q Were you threatened with layoff at
19 all on that job?
20 A Well, it wasn't like he was going to
21 lay me off. He was like hinting you can be
22 replaced, one of those. Like I said, well, do
23 what you got to do. I'm here to work. I got
24 my tools on. I'm working and that's why they
25 kept me.
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1 Garces
2 Q Right.
3 A Because I worked. That's how I am.
4 I says I'm working. You do what you got to
5 do. If you hate me, it is a personal issue.
6 If you see me with my tools, you'll think
7 different and that's how I told him.
8 Q Have you ever been laid off, let's
9 say, in the last five years or so because of
10 something you were doing on behalf of the
11 union?
12 A Yes. Benson Drywall, they laid me
13 off. I was always fighting with this guy and
14 they laid me off because they told me that I
15 couldn't do baseboard, you know, trim.
16 And I says, I was fighting with this
17 guy every day. I told him to go fuck himself
18 and I told Mike Ford that was there then. I
19 told them I'm not going to go back with those.
20 I don't need to have a heart attack and deal
21 with two assholes. I said I had enough.
22 Q What job was that, do you remember?
23 A I think it was the 13th and Hudson,
24 13th Street and Hudson. I just couldn't take
25 it no more and Mike says go back there.
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2 I said, no, Mike. I don't want to
3 go back. I don't need fighting with this guy
4 every day. I don't need this. I don't need to
5 be treated like an animal. I said it's enough,
6 enough, enough and I just left.
7 Q Have you been threatened on the job
8 site?
9 A Plenty of times but like, you know,
10 with other people. Not with the company. Just
11 like with the workers, you know.
12 Q Give me an example of something.
13 A Just you better watch your back.
14 Something might fall off the building.
15 Q For what kind of purposes?
16 A Because I stick up for the guys
17 because of that 50/50 rule. You have two guys
18 from the hall and you got 30 guys from the
19 company, and you're sticking up for two guys
20 and 30 guys are going to fuck you. You don't
21 know what hell is going to go. You're scared
22 for your life.
23 You don't know if this guy is
24 fooling around. You don't know. You don't
25 know. You don't know if it's a threat. You
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2 don't know if it is goofing around. You just
3 don't know.
4 Q So tell me, I mean, I want to make
5 sure I understand it here, all right, this is
6 because on many of your job sites the vast
7 majority of the people are company carpenters,
8 right?
9 A Yes, yes.
10 Q And so why would a company carpenter
11 threaten you about your back or something could
12 fall on you?
13 A Because I really don't know exactly
14 --
15 Q Right.
16 A -- what it is. What he's thinking.
17 But maybe you're trying to get more guys to
18 replace him and then he's out of work and the
19 union guy comes in and this guy is pissed off
20 because he's sitting home. That's probably
21 what they think.
22 I don't know. I don't know exactly
23 what they think but it could be something like
24 that. I'm not a psychologist or nothing.
25 Q I'm just trying to figure --
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2 A I would, too. I would be threatened
3 of my job if I was a company guy like that.
4 Q This seems like a good time for me
5 to ask you what your opinion is, Mr. Garces, of
6 50/50?
7 A My opinion?
8 Q Yes.
9 A You know, Walter, the 50/50 is a
10 contractors dream, okay, because a decent man
11 who's home with kids and trying to make a
12 decent living isn't going to make a decent
13 living because like half, maybe half of the
14 workers aren't worth the money that they're
15 getting paid and half of them are. They are
16 diehard workers but, you know, you don't have
17 the chance because these guys are related,
18 these guys know this guy. Just like in this
19 business. It is who you know and the company.
20 It is who you know in the company to get a job.
21 Q So am I understanding, and I don't
22 want to put words in your mouth, but I want to
23 make sure I have it right, the contractor can
24 request, that contractor is calling, is
25 basically controlling the job site in terms of
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2 the carpenters who are there?
3 A Yes.
4 Q No question about it?
5 A Oh, yeah. You don't have no say and
6 you just have to take it as it is because they
7 can go company or they can go union as long as
8 it is in the request and you don't know who it
9 is. You just, you don't know who they are.
10 Q Now, what is your practice as a shop
11 steward on the request system, how do you keep
12 the 50/50?
13 A I keep the 50/50 when I call my
14 business agent or when I go down to the office
15 I request the sheets and I say who was
16 requested, who wasn't and I go into a room in
17 there and I look at my sheets and I try to do
18 the best I can.
19 I could slip up once in a while
20 because I'm not that perfect but it's just that
21 I just look at that like that and sometimes
22 they go away. They come back and it's so
23 hard. If you have a lot of guys and it's
24 really an accountant's job really because it's
25 really, it's hard.
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2 If you got more than like 30 guys,
3 then it's really hard because then the
4 contractor wants you to work and you're trying
5 to do the sheets and then he's screaming at you
6 like a day's work for a day's pay. It is in
7 the contract, and he's right. So it's like and
8 then what are you going to do, go home and do
9 it. It's hard.
10 Q So if you had, and you do have the
11 means of speaking to Judge Haight through me
12 now or were able to make a change, what would
13 the change be?
14 A Like I don't understand what you
15 mean a change.
16 Q What advice would you have?
17 A With the system?
18 Q Yes.
19 A I would start first with the
20 stewards. I would start first with the
21 steward. They should have at least 10 years
22 experience. These guys that are coming in,
23 they have no knowledge of the business and
24 these contractors are just like going right
25 over their heads and they don't even know
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2 what's going on. They are lucky to have a
3 job.
4 Q So let's continue with your advice
5 as to what changes need to be made here.
6 A I feel that 10 years in the
7 business.
8 Q Right.
9 A Of course that is going through but
10 they should go in like once a year to refresh
11 them. They should be going to union meetings.
12 It must be required, at least go 10 times a
13 year, 10 meetings to know everybody and know
14 what's going on in the area.
15 Q All right.