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2 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
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Plaintiff,
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-against- 90 Civ 5722
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DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY and
7 VICINITY OF THE UNITED BROTHERHOOD OF
CARPENTERS AND JOINERS OF AMERICA,
8 et al.,
9 Defendants.
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12 DEPOSITION OF PETER ROCHE, the witness
13 herein, taken by Plaintiff, at the offices of
14 Doar, Rieck & Mack, Esqs., 217 Broadway, New
15 York, New York, on Thursday, January 6, 2005, at
16 2:15 p.m., before ROBERT BLOOM, a Shorthand
17 Reporter and notary public, within and for the
18 State of New York.
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TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
22 305 Madison Avenue 142 Willis Avenue
Suite 449 P.O. Box 347
23 New York, NY 10165 Mineola, NY 11501
(212) 349-9692 (516) 741-5235
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2 A P P E A R A N C E S:
3 DOAR, RIECK & MACK
217 Broadway - 7th floor
4 New York, New York 10007-2911
BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.,
5 Independent Investigator
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7 LISA ZORNBERG, ESQ.
Assistant United States Attorney
8 United States Department of Justice
86 Chambers Street
9 New York, New York 10007
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11 O'DWYER & BERNSTEIN, ESQS.
Attorneys for District Council
12 52 Duane Street
New York, New York 10007
13 BY: JASON FUIMAN, ESQ.
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15 KOEHLER & ISAACS, LLP
Attorneys for Witness
16 120 Broadway - 29th floor
New York, New York 10271
17 BY: STEVEN ISAACS, ESQ.
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3 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED that
4 all objections, except as to the form of the
5 questions, shall be reserved to the time of the
6 trial;
7 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED
8 that the within examination may be subscribed
9 and sworn to before any notary public with the
10 same force and effect as though subscribed and
11 sworn to before this court.
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2 I N D E X
3 WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE
4 Peter Roche Mr. Mack 27
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2 MR. MACK: Good afternoon, Mr. Roche.
3 I want to take a few moments to go through what
4 is happening today, and to describe myself and
5 what this process is.
6 You are the fortunate individual in the
7 sense in this room who has not heard all of this
8 before.
9 I apologize to all of my associates
10 here and friends and colleagues, but in essence,
11 there is sort of a procedure that I go through
12 to ensure that you understand what is happening
13 and whatever rights and obligations you may
14 have. And if there are any questions of any
15 kind, you have an opportunity to ask them and
16 have them clarified.
17 In essence, my name is Walter Mack. I
18 am appointed by District Court Judge Charles S.
19 Haight, Jr. to be the independent investigator
20 pursuant to a stipulation and order which
21 imposes upon me or authorizes me to conduct
22 certain investigations, write certain reports
23 and to try to assess or evaluate a number of
24 things, in essence dealing with the out-of-work
25 list. But also having to do with possible
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2 misconduct or violations of various laws
3 concerning the carpenters union.
4 And it's important, I think, as I told
5 your counsel, and I'm glad you have counsel
6 today, Mr. Isaacs, that there is at least an
7 effort by the District Council at the moment to
8 terminate my authority based upon the expiration
9 of the time period that I was originally
10 appointed.
11 And so it seems to me only fair to you
12 and your counsel to at least inform you of that,
13 because there is certainly no absolute certainty
14 by any means, it's up to the judge for whom I
15 work and for whom I'm an agent as to whether I
16 will continue to be around and be able to assess
17 what is happening, and whether my investigative
18 powers will continue, and, if so, in what way.
19 So that is some uncertainty that I
20 think only fair to you to tell about. I
21 mentioned that to your counsel independently.
22 But at least it's my belief that he is
23 willing to proceed with you today, and
24 consistent with what has been past policy and
25 which is still. I have not been terminated
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2 yet. The ultimate decision is that of the
3 court.
4 I just mentioned that to you because I
5 think it's only fair to do so.
6 Now, as I have said virtually to
7 everyone, I know this is not perhaps the most
8 fun way you can spend an afternoon, but it is
9 not designed to be any more unpleasant and is
10 not designed to be unpleasant at all.
11 It's in essence designed to allow me to
12 obtain information about the functioning of the
13 out-of-work list and the various individuals.
14 Everyone who appears before me here,
15 there has generally been and is true in your
16 case as well, at least one complaint in the hot
17 line concerning an appointment or at least a
18 question about your position or your authority
19 and what have you.
20 As I've said many, many times, and I
21 want to make sure you understand, that a
22 complaint to the hot line, especially when it's
23 anonymous, I have no idea as to the truth or
24 veracity of the complaint.
25 And I make selections based upon
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2 various records I see, or other information.
3 And you are among many who had the
4 misfortune of coming in and spending an
5 afternoon or evening with me.
6 But I want you to see it, although it's
7 an imposition, I, myself, have no disciplinary
8 authority of any kind.
9 In essence, I am mainly a fact
10 gatherer, and there are significant questions
11 that have arisen in the course of my
12 approximately two years about how the
13 out-of-work list works and how people get
14 assigned to jobs and how is it interpreted and
15 what have you.
16 But whatever my opinion may be of how
17 it works and how things have happened and how
18 they have evolved, I have really no direct
19 authority to change it in any way.
20 And if there are changes to be made, or
21 discipline to be imposed, the persons with the
22 authority to do that are either the judge for
23 whom I work or the District Council for whom
24 there is council here today.
25 I will introduce everybody in the room
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2 so you have some idea who they are, why they are
3 here and what their authority is.
4 In essence, this is Judge Haight's
5 place of where I as his agent seek to gather
6 information with the very strong likelihood that
7 I will write a report to the judge trying to
8 understand or at least describe what I have
9 found.
10 And there is a report that I'm working
11 on which I call my shop steward report in which
12 we have had many various complaints about
13 specific shop stewards and those individuals
14 have come in.
15 And I'm not going to generalize about
16 them, but I ask them questions dealing with how
17 they got to jobs, were there problems on the
18 jobs, how were they resolved, do they have
19 opinions or suggestions about how things could
20 be done.
21 So I want you to see it as less of an
22 inquisitorial situation, in which you are at
23 risk. But more as a fact-gathering process
24 designed to educate the judge about what the
25 reality is of work at job sites under the
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2 District Council's jurisdiction.
3 There are a number of things which even
4 are extremely important for me to convey to you
5 and to understand.
6 You will be placed under oath in a few
7 moments.
8 If there is any one lesson that I have
9 learned in the two years or so that I have been
10 around, is that there are occasions when
11 carpenters do not realize the significance of
12 being absolutely accurate in honoring their
13 oath.
14 If there is one reality -- and I'm sure
15 Mr. Isaacs has explained this to you but I need
16 to explain it to you, I am explaining it to
17 everyone, I'm not singling you out or making any
18 assumptions about how you are handling the
19 questions of any kinds, if anything my
20 assumption is you will honor your oath.
21 There have been individuals who
22 appeared here, both shop stewards and mechanics
23 who have not honored their oath. It is an
24 absolute certainty that if I am able to
25 demonstrate that or prove that or have evidence
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2 of that, I will recommend to the judge that that
3 person be prosecuted for perjury or obstruction
4 of justice.
5 Because my real only ability to gather
6 accurate facts and to recommend matters is based
7 upon the accuracy and the validity of the
8 information I have.
9 And so if someone lies to me or
10 misleads me or withholds information there is a
11 crime called perjury, which is basically lying
12 under oath.
13 Since I am a judicial officer, I work
14 for the court, it's worse than that because in
15 essence you are lying to a federal judge through
16 his agent.
17 In addition to that, because I do have
18 a particular mission that the judge has assigned
19 me with the consent of the parties, that if the
20 lie is designed to prevent me from finding the
21 truth, that that also can be an obstruction of
22 justice which is also a crime, both of those
23 crimes carry with it possible sanctions and
24 penalties which are severe, including
25 imprisonment.
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2 So the reason I go through it, and I
3 say this to everyone, is that basically if there
4 is one single thing that I could say that is
5 most important, it is honor your oath. Tell
6 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
7 truth.
8 There have been, in fact, individuals
9 who will face criminal prosecution as a result
10 of coming here.
11 That criminal prosecution in most cases
12 is primarily as a result of their dishonoring
13 their oath.
14 And so I basically beseech you, you
15 have an experienced attorney with you, do not
16 lie under oath. And I would say even the
17 individuals who are facing criminal prosecution,
18 had they told the truth the first time they came
19 in to see me, they might have received some
20 sanction for accepting cash or dealing with
21 inaccurate shop steward reports or making
22 mistakes of judgment, but they would not have
23 been prosecuted criminally or would not face
24 criminal prosecution.
25 And given some of the uncertainties
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2 that many of the carpenters I've talked to in
3 terms of how does the out-of-work list work,
4 what are the rules, how does the 50/50 system
5 work and all the unknowns that have surprised me
6 as I spent my time around here, the likelihood
7 is that the sanction by the District Council is
8 -- at least the ones I've seen in some part have
9 been relatively minor and are absolutely
10 inconsequential when compared to facing a
11 criminal prosecution for lying to a judge's
12 agent.
13 So I am not going to dwell on the
14 subject, I guess what I need to impress upon
15 you, tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
16 but the truth.
17 I can't conceive of any truth based
18 upon what has happened that would so jeopardize
19 your future as lying to me and trying to prevent
20 me from understanding what's happening.
21 When I say "me," I don't mean to
22 personalize it. Everything I do I do on behalf
23 of Judge Haight.
24 My guess is I will be writing a report
25 and that this transcript -- that's why there is
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2 a transcript today of this handsome gentleman
3 sitting to your left -- that will allow the
4 judge to read what your answers are and what my
5 questions are and one of the reasons I spend so
6 much time on this is that the judge would
7 require me to ensure that I was open, and very
8 up front with you and as clear as possible.
9 Let me mention some other things.
10 Again, every witness here gets exactly
11 what I'm telling you, only maybe in different
12 words.
13 There are a number of things which I
14 think you should understand.
15 Number one, should I ask you a question
16 which in your mind could tend to incriminate
17 you, personally, I could hypothesize, let me
18 pick one which I think is far from reality, did
19 you ever sell heroine on a job site, and I'm
20 just using this as an example, you may have
21 known there were drugs being sold on a job site,
22 I am merely just speculating, if you feel that
23 the answer to the question might tend to
24 incriminate you personally, what you should do
25 is basically take a break and talk to your
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2 lawyer about the subject, and make a decision
3 whether or not you wish to assert the Fifth
4 Amendment or right not to incriminate yourself.
5 I cannot overemphasize the importance
6 of if a truthful answer might tend to
7 incriminate you, if you lie to me and say "I
8 don't know about it," you're far worse off than
9 if you take the Fifth Amendment.
10 Say Mr. Mack, with all courtesy and
11 respect, I wish to take advantage of my
12 Constitutional privilege and not answer that
13 question.
14 You have that right in this proceeding
15 here, and I would encourage you to exercise it
16 rather than lie about it.
17 And you can take whatever time you need
18 to take with Mr. Isaacs or whatever, to decide
19 whether you wish to take the Fifth Amendment or
20 not.
21 This is not a criminal proceeding. I
22 am not a prosecutor, I have already said that.
23 It is a civil proceeding designed for
24 me to gather evidence.
25 I have to tell you that should you
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2 assert the Fifth Amendment, there are two things
3 which you should have in mind.
4 One, the District Council does not
5 recognize the right of a carpenter to assert a
6 Fifth Amendment, at least that's my belief, I am
7 not entirely certain whether they have ever
8 acted on that with any great vigor, and I
9 pressed them on the subject.
10 But at least I am told, and Mr. Fuiman
11 will have an opportunity to clarify that policy
12 in any way because he is counsel for the
13 District Council, but it is my belief at least
14 based upon way have been told that they do not
15 recognize a carpenter's right to take the Fifth
16 Amendment in their own proceedings if it
17 concerns carpenter matters.
18 So one thing you should be aware of
19 that that you could be questioned on the same
20 topic by the District Council.
21 There have been -- at least one example
22 I have very firmly in mind, I think they are
23 going to try to require a person to answer those
24 questions. Although they have not done so as
25 yet. That is something I have discussed with
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2 them and we may differ on what they should do.
3 What I also should tell you is if you
4 do take the Fifth Amendment on a matter that I
5 think is important to construction
6 administration or something that could be of
7 interest or importance to a prosecutor, the
8 likelihood is I refer the transcript to a
9 prosecutor to evaluate whether or not they
10 should pursue it.
11 I can't speak for the prosecutor, I
12 can't speak for the judge.
13 My view is if it's a serious subject
14 that concerns a job site in the city and you
15 take the Fifth Amendment, I am not going to
16 forget about it. I am going to say what's
17 there, what's the situation.
18 I guess finally, and perhaps -- or
19 maybe least important -- is that I can decide
20 that because you didn't answer the question that
21 I asked you, that the other evidence I have I'm
22 going to rely upon that that talks about X, Y
23 and Z and what have you.
24 I am able to infer information because
25 you haven't answered the question.
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2 That is up to me, it is by no means
3 certain and it's something I deal with on a
4 case-by-case basis.
5 But I will tell you this: Most
6 important thing I said is to tell the truth, and
7 if it's a topic which could incriminate you, do
8 not lie about it, take the Fifth Amendment after
9 consultation with your counsel, and that is why
10 your counsel is here.
11 Let me cover a couple of other topics
12 which we probably have discussed but should be
13 important to you.
14 Mr. Isaacs has represented other
15 carpenters and other persons who have held shop
16 steward positions.
17 His job here today, and at any time in
18 dealing with you, is to ensure that you have the
19 best council, that you are being zealously safe
20 guarded and protected and advised, even if that
21 information would be critical of other people,
22 some of whom he might actually represent.
23 I hope that's not the case. I don't
24 know.
25 But all I can do out of fairness to you
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2 is to say that it's Mr. Isaac's obligation as a
3 lawyer to assess or determine whether or not he
4 is conflicted. And should there be a situation
5 where your truthful evidence would incriminate
6 or at least provide a problem to one of his
7 other clients, he has a problem.
8 Because in essence, the law is that he
9 either has to withdraw from representing you and
10 telling you that right away.
11 He certainly cannot advise you hey,
12 don't talk about this, just talk about that, in
13 order to protect the other client, because he
14 would be denying you the right to tell the
15 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth
16 and putting you in a situation where you would
17 be lying in order to protect another client.
18 Now, I have no way of knowing,
19 certainly at this stage, whether there is any
20 situation remotely close to that.
21 Since I have confidence in Mr. Isaac's
22 ability to figure that out and since it is his
23 obligation I am going to leave to him, at least
24 at there time, that decision, as to whether or
25 not he feels he has been conflicted or not.
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2 But I feel it's my obligation and the
3 judge would want me to at least alert you to the
4 fact that he does represent other carpenters.
5 By his being here and by his being at
6 your side today, and willingness to proceed as
7 your counsel, he is saying I thought about all
8 my other clients, and I have talked to Peter
9 Roche, and I feel that I can represent Peter
10 Roche, vigorously, fairly, give him the best
11 legal advice without impacting adversely any of
12 my other clients in doing so.
13 And that is his obligation here today.
14 Do you understand at least the
15 substance of what I have just described to you.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 MR. MACK: Are you willing to proceed
18 today with Mr. Isaacs?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 MR. MACK: I would say this, my
21 procedure today is pretty simple, and that is to
22 go pretty much chronologically through your job
23 referral history because of questions I have
24 about things that have occurred to me that I
25 don't have -- that I don't know -- without the
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2 ability to talk to you about.
3 The reason that we're having this
4 proceeding as it currently is set up, it allows
5 me to focus very specifically on my questions
6 and it's designed to allow you to look at the
7 records, to take whatever time is necessary, if
8 you don't understand my question you should tell
9 me.
10 I would like to proceed efficiently,
11 but if you need time to understand the records,
12 I realize some of these records you may have
13 just seen for the first time this afternoon,
14 although I think most of these records are
15 available or could have been available to you, I
16 don't know the answer to that.
17 But, in any event, I certainly want to
18 ensure that you don't feel that you have been
19 trapped or asked a trick question.
20 If my question isn't clear, you tell me
21 it isn't clear and I will try to clarify.
22 If you get tired, want to take a break,
23 you want to go out and talk to your lawyer, let
24 me know what it boils down to.
25 The process is designed to be as fair
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2 and allow you to answer the question as clearly
3 and accurately as possible.
4 Do you have any questions or anything
5 that you would like to ask me personally, I will
6 go around the room, introduce everybody, why
7 they are here, who they are and what authority
8 they have so that I will try to answer those.
9 Anything other than that, that is on
10 your mind that you would like to ask or say?
11 THE WITNESS: Not right now.
12 MR. MACK: If that should change and
13 there is a phase usually where I say are there
14 some suggestions that you would have?
15 I have already written some reports, I
16 have some criticisms of the way things work, I
17 am going to tell you that very frequently my
18 opinions are affected and made better on the
19 basis of what I'm told by the people who sit
20 where you do.
21 So I recognize and I have been told
22 repeatedly that I am not a carpenter, I am a
23 lawyer. I'm trying to do the best job I can
24 and understand what it's like to work on a job
25 site and what the pressures are.
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2 But you can understand that if there
3 are particular matters that I need to hear from
4 you, I don't want you to be bashful about
5 explaining them to me because you're explaining
6 it to the judge.
7 And maybe some of the practices and
8 some of my conclusions in my earlier reports are
9 based upon opinions and topics that have been
10 explained to me, not only in a formal
11 proceeding, but on the telephone, or based upon
12 carpenters calling me and saying this is not
13 fair, this should be changed, it's not clear.
14 And so this is part of that process as
15 well, to help me and the judge understand some
16 of the aspects of being a carpenter in this
17 city, and what are the pressures that are there
18 and are there some things that could be improved
19 to make it fairer for members of the District
20 Council.
21 That is also a part of this examination
22 today.
23 Anything else you need to say or would
24 like to ask?
25 THE WITNESS: No.
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2 MR. MACK: Let me talk to your lawyer
3 for a brief moment.
4 Mr. Isaacs, hopefully I haven't stated
5 anything here that you take violent offense at.
6 Is there anything you would like to say
7 or anything you feel need be said at this time?
8 MR. ISAACS: No.
9 MR. MACK: I am not sure whether you
10 now Mr. Jason Fuiman, he is counsel, one of the
11 high qualified competent legal team with Dwyer
12 and Bernstein, he is here to represent the
13 District Council. He is here as my guest.
14 It has been my practice for well over
15 90 percent of my formal questioning to have a
16 representative of the District Council present.
17 I invite them to appear by counsel or
18 by specific person or both.
19 And that is designed to make sure that
20 they are up to the moment on topics as they come
21 along.
22 It also is designed to allow them to
23 ask any questions or bring out any points that
24 in fairness to you and to the judge need be
25 brought out in the course of the examination.
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2 There may come an occasion where you or
3 your lawyer would like to talk to the District
4 Council through Mr. Fuiman about a topic, what
5 is the policy on this, or what do you think
6 about that. And if you wish to do that at any
7 time, I will excuse you and you three can go out
8 and discuss something.
9 But he is not your lawyer here today,
10 there is only one person who is your lawyer and
11 your lawyer alone, and that is Mr. Isaacs.
12 Mr. Fuiman may have the same interests
13 and may be here with exactly the same concerns,
14 but his job is to represent the District Council
15 and bring out whatever information or ask
16 questions that he thinks should be brought out.
17 Having said that, Jason, anything you
18 would like to add or subtract to what I have
19 said.
20 MR. FUIMAN: No, thank you.
21 MR. MACK: Ms. Zornberg is an
22 Assistant United States Attorney with the civil
23 division of the U.S. Attorney's Office in the
24 Southern District of New York.
25 As you may know, that office is a party
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2 to the consent decree and was one of the parties
3 with respect to the consent decree.
4 She is not a criminal prosecutor, she
5 is a civil assistant whose responsibility is to,
6 on behalf of the United States, oversee
7 implementation of the consent decree, see that
8 I'm doing my job and also to stay informed and
9 be aware and advised as to what is happening so
10 that the United States of America, should they
11 wish to take position before the court or ask
12 questions or inquire of the District Council or
13 of you here today, she is also my guest and is
14 invited to participate if there are topics and
15 may ask questions from time to time on behalf of
16 her client.
17 I do want to emphasize, her job is not
18 law enforcement in the sense of criminal
19 prosecution, but rather to ensure that the
20 consent decree and any implementation of the
21 consent decree is acting consistently with their
22 position and their beliefs.
23 Ms. Zornberg, anything you would like
24 to add or subtract?
25 MS. ZORNBERG: No, thank you.
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2 MR. MACK: Having gone through all
3 that, is there anything else you would like to
4 cover or ask before we get started?
5 THE WITNESS: No, I think we are
6 ready to get started.
7 MR. MACK: You can imagine how hard it
8 is for all the others in the room who have to
9 hear that as many times as they have, I do
10 change a few words now and then, just to make it
11 less tedious for them.
12 Could I ask that the witness be sworn.
13 Whereupon,
14 PETER ROCHE,
15 after having been first duly sworn, was examined
16 and testified as follows:
17 EXAMINATION BY
18 MR. MACK:
19 Q. Could you state and spell for me your
20 name?
21 A. My name is Peter Roche, P E T E R,
22 R O C H E.
23 Q. I'm pretty certain that I have the
24 right number, is your District Council number U
25 64230503?
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1 Roche
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. I think I have provided you a copy of
4 what has been marked as PR-1.
5 PR-1, these little letters and numbers
6 mean absolutely nothing other than to permit me
7 to identify the piece of paper that I'm showing
8 you.
9 I think somewhere you have one, if not
10 I know your counsel is looking at it, it's
11 designed to be a copy of the notice asking for
12 your appearance here today.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. I just want you to look at that.
15 Is that a copy of the notice?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. One of the things that you were asked
18 to bring in today and I think we have taken a
19 shot at trying to copy, were shop steward
20 reports and records and certifications for
21 carpentry skills.
22 While we were waiting to get started we
23 made copies of what you brought.
24 I wonder if you can tell me what you
25 did bring.
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2 A. These are reports from last year up to
3 January, Mr. Isaacs has the one for this year.
4 Q. So Mr. Isaacs has them now.
5 On our first break we will copy them.
6 MR. MACK: Let me identify this first
7 set as PR-20.
8 This will be the set that was actually
9 made here at the time.
10 We have returned the originals to you,
11 and I am going to make a set available to my
12 colleagues here.
13 MS. ZORNBERG: Thank you.
14 Q. Could you simply tell me what this
15 first set that we copied, represents, what are
16 these, in other words?
17 A. These are from the job I was on, Rimi
18 in 2 World Financial Center, and these are shop
19 steward reports from that job, I believe, it's
20 just the one job.
21 Q. So when you say Rimi, this is Rimi
22 Woodcraft?
23 A. Rimi Woodcraft, yes.
24 Q. And the location of that job was where,
25 at 2 World Trade Center?
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2 A. 2 World Financial Center.
3 Q. Are there any other contractors whose
4 shop steward reports you brought me here in this
5 set, PR-20, other than Rimi Woodcraft?
6 A. I don't believe so, I'm looking now.
7 Q. I don't see any, but we'll let them
8 speak for themselves.
9 When I get there I may ask you some
10 specific questions about them. And if I
11 understood what you told me, Mr. Isaacs now has
12 received shop steward reports for the year 2004?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Are those also Rimi Woodcraft?
15 A. No, there is another one with Wood Pro
16 Installers.
17 Q. In our first break which is
18 approximately 10 minutes away, I will copy those
19 and mark them.
20 Let's get started on what is really a
21 fairly simple process, and so let me at least
22 identify the documents which you will need to
23 have in front of you so that we can proceed as
24 efficiently as possible.
25 First of all, what I have, I think,
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1 Roche
2 provided everyone, is marked as Exhibit PR-2.
3 I see a copy of that in front of you.
4 What that is is a record of your
5 benefit history as furnished to me by the
6 District Council benefit fund.
7 This will be an important document
8 today, because what I will be doing is asking
9 you questions as to whether or not or why, there
10 seems to be a situation, this is the most
11 typical one that you are on the out-of-work list
12 yet benefits are being paid for you for that
13 time period. That is the most routine
14 question.
15 One topic always comes up, I want to
16 make sure you understand exactly what I am
17 willing to do.
18 There have been some occasions, but
19 very, very few, but there have been some
20 occasions where someone in your position has
21 said the report of the benefits is inaccurate,
22 it's either late or they haven't presented it in
23 the right way or it's off by a month.
24 In any situation where you feel, in
25 good faith, that that is true, what I have said
32
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2 to everyone, and I want to include you, is that
3 I will go to the judge and ask for a subpoena,
4 and ask for that company to produce all the
5 payroll and employment records with respect to
6 you to remove any uncertainty on your part or
7 simply to find out whether you were working
8 during the period or whether they reported late
9 or whatever else.
10 So I don't want you to think that I am
11 simply accepting PR-2 as being the absolute
12 gospel. But I also have to tell you for the
13 most part it's pretty close to being exactly
14 right.
15 But if you feel that in a particular
16 situation that the report is inaccurate or there
17 is some other factor or they are reporting it
18 wrong, they are reporting it for some other
19 Peter Roche or something like that, I want you
20 to understand I certainly don't want to make any
21 assumptions where you feel that there may be an
22 inaccuracy, and the judge would be very upset
23 with me were I to do so.
24 In a situation where you feel that this
25 report, PR-2, may be inaccurate, just simply say
33
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2 hey, check it. I wanted you to get the
3 records. And I'll do that.
4 Understood?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, the next exhibit which may be
7 perhaps one of the most significant is PR-3,
8 which I know you have a copy of there, and this
9 is what I would call your work referral history,
10 again furnished to me by the District Council at
11 my request. I believe this is available, may
12 have been available to you, and goes through, in
13 chronological fashion entry by entry, your work
14 referral history.
15 We will be referring to that
16 frequently.
17 So if there are questions about what it
18 means, or what happens -- I think the most
19 confusing part of these records are the
20 timeliness of them, because the computer as to
21 time, I'm told, is maintained on California
22 time.
23 When they take a look at the very first
24 entry there on the second page of PR-3, and it
25 shows a date of December 16, 1998, then right
34
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2 next to it it shows a time of 12:20 p.m., that
3 is California time.
4 The New York time is 3 hours later.
5 So the time of that entry, and that
6 entry specifically is Peter Roche added to the
7 out-of-work list for the 608, would be December
8 16, 1998, and the time that that actually
9 happened would be 3:20 p.m. rather than 12:20
10 p.m.
11 And that is true throughout the entire
12 record.
13 I don't want you to be confused. I
14 will try to be as clear as I can, because
15 sometimes the very time of the entry is
16 important.
17 Let me give you an example of that, you
18 will see at least one and probably two instances
19 where you add a skill and a very short time
20 thereafter there is a dispatch with that skill,
21 where that skill is asked for by the contractor
22 or the business agent.
23 The question by me will be why did you
24 add that skill, what was the reason for it,
25 because in several instances where that is true,
35
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2 it means that you're sent to a specific job.
3 And so I'm trying to find out why that
4 skill was added, and were you advised to put it
5 on, what was the basis for it.
6 Now, there have been a couple of
7 individuals who said to me it's just
8 coincidence, or basically I just sort of felt
9 like it.
10 I would hesitate to give those kinds of
11 answers, maybe they could be true. But you
12 will see a specific situation where in a very
13 short period of time there is a skill added and
14 very shortly thereafter, I have to tell you I
15 have a great deal of skepticism about: The
16 little birdy told me to add that skill theory.
17 If that is what it is, go with the
18 truth.
19 I am suggesting I have uniformly
20 discounted the shop steward who has come in and
21 said I felt like adding welding. And an hour
22 later they get sent out on a job that has
23 welding.
24 If that's your recollection, fine.
25 I want to tell you that I start with
36
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2 somewhat of a healthy skepticism or unhealthy
3 skepticism about the likelihood of the birdy,
4 add the welding skill.
5 That is in terms for you to wrestle
6 with in terms of a specific case, I will show
7 you a few of those and try to be as accurate as
8 you can to answer the best you can.
9 We will go through a lot of these. I
10 have been through the list, I will try to be
11 efficient, let me refer to several other things
12 that you should in mind as also part of PR-3.
13 At the very back of PR-3 are a series
14 of actual dispatches or referrals.
15 And so I may refer you to some of
16 those.
17 It may tell you I was sent to Rimi
18 Woodcraft with these skills.
19 I will try to bring to your attention
20 all of the documents that I have that refer to a
21 particular question so you can sit, look at it,
22 understand my question, talk to Mr. Isaacs about
23 it, if that's what's there. Take a break and
24 go out and say what it is and what it boils down
25 to.
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2 I'm not going to expect you to be a
3 master of these, I have been working on them for
4 a year or more, basically it takes a little
5 time. You need to think about it.
6 I will tell you this, although I'm sure
7 coming back here may not be the most favorite
8 thing, but you are far better coming back if we
9 don't get through today than to answer
10 untruthfully or guessing or making assumptions.
11 I will try to bring all these records
12 to your attention. There are a couple of other
13 sets I want to at least describe for you so you
14 know they are here.
15 PR-4, which I think you also have a set
16 of, reflects what I call hold calls, which are
17 times you called in and say hold, don't call me
18 for a week or two weeks. Nothing wrong with
19 that, sometimes it's important for me to find
20 out why that happened or what was the basis for
21 it. Sometimes it relates to a particular job
22 or a particular dispatch.
23 That is what PR-4 is.
24 And then PR-5 is an effort -- I think
25 we're pretty good at it, at actually going to
38
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2 the District Council and coming up with a
3 specific manning request form filled out in
4 handwriting by the operator, the outer work
5 list.
6 Those sometimes are helpful because it
7 reflects who called, when was the skill added,
8 what was said.
9 And it's an additional way to try to
10 help you remember and also an effort by me to
11 try to make sure you have every document that at
12 least I have that I will be thinking about when
13 I think about a particular dispatch.
14 That is part of PR-5.
15 I guess there are a couple of exhibits
16 that I did not produce to you but I have and may
17 decide to use, I want to tell you what they are,
18 but there are a number of them so I'm not really
19 focused on using them all unless they become
20 important.
21 That is something which the District
22 Council and I disagree about, and have disagreed
23 about from the beginning.
24 I want to tell you about it and since I
25 have no real authority to make any changes, it's
39
1 Roche
2 something that comes up in your case and it
3 comes up in many cases, and that is being
4 dispatched to a job and you stay on the job a
5 day or two days, and go back on the list.
6 And the District Council takes the
7 view, and that is fine, that's great, and that's
8 entirely up to you and there are a number of
9 instances where that happens.
10 I question whether or not that should
11 be permitted or not. And there will be several
12 subjects, for instance today, where you're
13 dispatched, you go back on the list almost
14 immediately, and then there is another shop
15 steward dispatched to the same job with the same
16 skills to take your place.
17 So this is a good example of a
18 situation where month is to say what is right or
19 wrong.
20 What I'm trying to do is gather what
21 your thinking was, what happened on this
22 particular job, and basically what you did.
23 It's really just designed to gather the
24 data, because I know the District Council takes
25 the view shop stewards can decide whether they
40
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2 want to stay on the job or not.
3 I like to ask questions about that
4 topic if only to illustrate it for the
5 government's purposes and for the judge's
6 purpose, how it works out.
7 So I think I have been through each
8 exhibit.
9 Rather than start now, since the
10 hardest working gentleman is sitting to my
11 right, we have been going about an hour, let's
12 take a 5 minute break and start right off with
13 the first entry on the out-of-work list.
14 Let's take five minutes, give Mr. Bloom
15 who is, as I say, a hard worker, 5.
16 And we will get started.
17 The rest of it is relatively easy.
18 (Recess.)
19 Q. Mr. Roche, obviously you are still
20 under oath.
21 Has anything happened or anything
22 changed since we took our break or should we
23 just go?
24 A. Go ahead.
25 Q. First question, and I am going to put
41
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2 my exhibits out here, you are added to the
3 out-of-work list on December 16, 1998.
4 Do you have any specific recollection
5 about the circumstances of being added at that
6 time, did you add yourself, were you added as
7 part of a process, how did you come to go on the
8 out-of-work list as far as you can remember.
9 A. I didn't even think there was an
10 out-of-work list in 1998.
11 Q. The only reason I would say that there
12 is some evidence that there was is that there is
13 an entry for you for that date.
14 When is your recollection that there
15 became an out-of-work list?
16 A. I thought it came around the year 2000.
17 Q. So I'm going to ask you, I think the
18 District Council has at least taken the view
19 that this early time period is not that
20 significant to them, but I have sort of decided
21 it's worth asking the questions if only for me
22 to understand the significance of the entries
23 during this time period.
24 I'm not going to dwell on them at great
25 length, but it seems to me at least that it's
42
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2 worth understanding what these entries meant in
3 '98 and '99.
4 So it will be good practice for what we
5 will be doing later.
6 You can understand why I'm asking the
7 question, by simply turning to the second page
8 of PR-2, because it appears at least from the
9 benefit fund records that you are at work, and
10 are working on December 16, 1998. At least for
11 some part of the time period.
12 I'm sure you can do this better than I
13 can but I want to make sure you understand why I
14 am of that view.
15 And that is there are benefits reported
16 for you for Wildman and B, I'm not sure who that
17 is, through that period.
18 And then in January and February, 1999,
19 and for many periods, at least it appears to me
20 you are working during that time period.
21 I don't want to dwell on it, I want to
22 ask you do you have any particular recollection
23 of working during the time period and being on
24 the out-of-work list at the same time.
25 A. I remember some of these companies, but
43
1 Roche
2 as regards the out-of-work list, I never thought
3 it even existed.
4 Q. Let me go through it. There had to
5 come a time when you did.
6 Here is why I think that's true, let's
7 go through it.
8 On July 7th, 1999 at 11:16 in the
9 morning, your qualification as a shop steward
10 was added.
11 All right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Here is my question: Do you recall
14 whether you added that skill --
15 MR. ISAACS: What day?
16 MR. MACK: Talking about July 7, 1999.
17 MR. ISAACS: All right.
18 Q. It's 11:16 a.m. in the morning, still
19 after that is a symbol there for shop steward.
20 Let me say this, I want to be fair to
21 you, that could have been added because you
22 graduated from the school and they simply added
23 it.
24 Or it could have been added because you
25 called up, which is true thereafter with every
44
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2 skill because only the carpenter can put the
3 skill on for the most part, for adding skills to
4 your qualifications.
5 So my question is do you recall the
6 circumstances under which your skill or your
7 qualification as a shop steward was added in
8 July 1999.
9 Did you do that or did somebody else do
10 that?
11 A. Not that I know of. As far as I know
12 whenever I done my first course, which I had
13 done.
14 Q. When was that?
15 A. It's a while back.
16 Q. Could it have been '99?
17 A. It could have been.
18 Q. Do you have -- one of the things I
19 should have asked from you are you --
20 A. I have certificates with me.
21 Q. Give those to Mr. Isaacs so I can have
22 them copied in the next break?
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. That was one of the things asked of
25 you?
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1 Roche
2 A. It might say in 1998 or 1999.
3 Q. Take a look.
4 A. I believe I have them.
5 Q. Go out and get it?
6 A. I have it right here. Here is
7 December. May 1999 is on this.
8 Q. Hand it to me, I won't mark up your
9 certificates, I want to look at it.
10 I'm looking at a document which will
11 eventually be marked, a copy of it, as PR-22,
12 and it sells me that you satisfactorily
13 completed your UBC construction steward system
14 certificate as a steward, and it's dated in May
15 1999.
16 I'm reading from that.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. With various certificates which reflect
19 various of the topics that were covered?
20 A. Yes, I believe that was the first one
21 that started. We done several courses and then
22 later on, because I have another one saying
23 2001, redone the whole lot again for some
24 reason.
25 Q. Did you attend both courses?
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2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Let me have your other one, I'm going
4 to read from it so that we have those dates.
5 Again, this will be marked PR-23, and
6 this reflects -- just reading from it, that you
7 received your New York City steward training
8 program certificate in January 2001, and it
9 bears the printed names of Michael Forde, Peter
10 Thomason and Scott Danileson.
11 We will mark those, make copies, mark
12 them and you will walk out with the original.
13 A. I don't know if that is the completion
14 or the date when they mailed it out to me.
15 Q. That is what I was going to ask you, as
16 you know, what is apparent here is that at least
17 in July '99, July 7th, the shop steward skill
18 was added to your work referral history.
19 Again, it appears to me that that code
20 was added as a result of your completion of the
21 course.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you have any recollection yourself
24 of having added it?
25 A. No, as far as I understand, when you
47
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2 have done the course, whenever is done in the
3 council, they put it on the computer and it was
4 up to you to call to double-check to make sure
5 they done their job and they put you down as a
6 steward, as far as I remember.
7 Q. That's very helpful.
8 Basically I'm going to proceed to the
9 next entry which is of significance to me, and
10 that is, you'll see that on September 17th,
11 1999, you are added to the out-of-work list, and
12 the time so you know, is 9:09 a.m.
13 If I go to the benefit history at the
14 time, I guess here is my question, it's not
15 absolutely certain but at least it's worthy of a
16 question were you at work during September 1999.
17 A. September 1999?
18 Q. Yes.
19 And let me complicate the question a
20 little bit for you so you can be thinking about
21 the whole topic.
22 During this period you will see that on
23 September 23rd you added certain skills, to be
24 specific; drywall, drywall ceilings only,
25 acoustical ceilings, finished woodwork, metal
48
1 Roche
2 pan ceilings, and deleted the skill of drywall.
3 It's been my expectation that the
4 carpenter himself specifically did.
5 Do you have a recollection of adding
6 those skills and subtracting drywall for any
7 particular reason?
8 A. Not in those years, no.
9 Q. Were you aware of the out-of-work list?
10 Clearly you're adding skills, you must have had
11 some understanding of the out-of-work list?
12 A. It must have been there, it's there on
13 paper. But I can't remember ever -- I can't
14 remember, looking at these jobs here, I don't
15 remember if the District Council sent me to any
16 of these jobs.
17 As far as I'm concerned the list did
18 not exist even though this says I added and
19 subtracted, it doesn't make sense to me. As
20 far as I am concerned, I thought the list only
21 started in the year 2000.
22 Q. We're going to get there. Let me at
23 least give you something else.
24 There are a number of entries during
25 this time period where they are unable to reach
49
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2 you. They try to reach you, you will see on
3 September 22nd, September 27th, September 28th.
4 Again, there is an early period, but at
5 the same time it's a period --
6 A. Is that early morning calls?
7 Q. On September 22 unable reach you at
8 basically 4:30, for a job.
9 On -- you added a skill, drywall,
10 drywall ceilings, I don't want to waste your
11 time here, that actually was on September 23rd,
12 those skills were added at 10:57 in the morning.
13 You are clearly calling and adding
14 skills and deleting a skill at the same time.
15 You're deleting drywall.
16 Do you see that entry there at 10:58?
17 A. I'm adding what, you said?
18 Q. Find the date first, September 23rd,
19 then you go to the time which says 7:57. But
20 you have to add three hours.
21 There is your number, UBC number, and
22 here are the skills, drywall, drywall ceiling,
23 acoustical ceiling, those are all added.
24 All in the same call because it's only
25 one minute later I'm going to presume, you
50
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2 delete drywall.
3 So something is happening there causing
4 you to do that, I'm asking you whether you
5 remember.
6 A. I don't remember. Several times I
7 delete drywall, I don't put it on now because I
8 have back problems, I prefer to stay away from
9 drywall, I started to get involved in the
10 woodwork scene because I want to stay away from
11 drywall.
12 Q. All I'm trying to do is to figure out
13 whether that was true in 1999, if you can
14 remember.
15 A. I can't say whether it was or wasn't.
16 Q. It's not consequential to me because
17 it's not directly tied to a referral at the
18 moment.
19 There are others where it is directly
20 connected to a referral and I will focus in on
21 those.
22 I think the main reason I'm showing you
23 this is these entries may, in some way, help you
24 remember what's happening.
25 I will be more focused on it when we
51
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2 get more current.
3 But at least you'll get some idea how I
4 read this.
5 Here is something that is consequential
6 to me, you added to the outer work list on
7 October 1, 1999, you'll see that you're added
8 approximately at 3:53 p.m.
9 If you look at your benefit time
10 period, it appears to me that you are certainly
11 working in the month of October 1999, if I am to
12 accept the accuracy of all of those entries, 195
13 hours in the month of October, which you will
14 see is the total hours.
15 There are entries here that can show
16 the actual referrals in '99 where you are being
17 referred to jobs.
18 I guess the question I'm asking you
19 there is: Were you working when you were
20 placed on the list on October 1, 1999?
21 You're on the list all the way through
22 the month of October.
23 The question that I'm asking you is
24 notwithstanding your being on the out-of-work
25 list, were you in fact working during the month
52
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2 of October 1999, and as I say there are three
3 separate entries there for you, totaling 195
4 hours for the month of October, 1999.
5 There is also an entry for September.
6 That's the question?
7 A. Was I working?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. I can't really say where I was or
10 wasn't.
11 These are benefits paid in. Benefits
12 are paid in late --
13 Q. If your view is --
14 A. I would have to go and look at my old
15 pay stubs to even answer that question.
16 Q. Here is one thing that I think I can
17 say, I do want to know if, in fact, you were
18 working during that time period. It may have
19 no significance whatsoever.
20 Before I subpoena them for all the
21 records, what I would like you to do through
22 your counsel is to check your own records and
23 have him respond to that question based upon
24 your own records.
25 If you are unable to find your own
53
1 Roche
2 records, I will subpoena those companies for
3 your employment records for that time period.
4 In other words, if you can determine
5 from irrelevant own pay records, that's fine.
6 If you are of the view that you were
7 not working during that time period, and you
8 can't locate the records, I will issue a
9 subpoena for the payroll records to resolve the
10 issue.
11 You understand that?
12 A. Yes.
13 I remember working for C.W. Brown, at
14 that particular time I can't say I was working
15 actually for them.
16 I know the building I was working in.
17 It was one of those jobs I got off the street.
18 Q. And again --
19 A. That's why it stays in my mind, I know
20 the job in particular, very well.
21 Q. When you say off the street, does that
22 mean you shaped the job and they put you on?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I don't think you can test the view
25 that once you get a job of that nature, it's
54
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2 great to shape a job, that's something at the
3 same time if you do shape a job you're supposed
4 to report that to the out-of-work list so you're
5 not on the out-of-work list?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. I guess what I'm trying to resolve
8 here, at least for this time period as to
9 whether or not you should have been on the
10 out-of-work list or not.
11 And you should check your records to
12 determine that.
13 What I would ask you to do is say "yes"
14 or "no," because Mr. Bloom here is unable to
15 take the nodding of your head down.
16 A. Sorry.
17 Q. If you would?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That's what I'm trying to resolve as to
20 whether you were working on the out-of-work
21 list.
22 Do you understand that?
23 A. I understand.
24 Q. Now, let me ask you this, have you ever
25 been questioned by anyone as to whether or not
55
1 Roche
2 you were working when you are on the out-of-work
3 list?
4 In other words, has somebody gone
5 through your records and said gee, you were
6 working, or were not working or were you
7 working, during the time period you were on the
8 list?
9 A. Yes, they did.
10 Q. When did that happen?
11 A. Just this week, on Tuesday.
12 Q. Is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What was the nature of that?
15 A. The council is checking me out now, I
16 guess it's in relation to everything going down
17 here.
18 Q. Have you had charges brought against
19 you for being on the list while you were
20 working?
21 A. They are charging me now as we speak.
22 Q. Is this time period one of the ones
23 they're charging you for?
24 A. No.
25 Q. It's not?
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1 Roche
2 A. No.
3 Q. What is the earliest one that you are
4 charging for?
5 A. I believe in 2001, because they don't
6 honor, they don't recognize -- that's why I'm
7 confused, they don't recognize anything before
8 2000.
9 Q. And again, I have no authority to
10 discipline you, but in terms of the situation,
11 it's really up to them.
12 But at the same time I'm trying to
13 understand the process as it existed, at least
14 during this time period.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, was it this week, the first time
17 you were ever questioned on this topic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Never questioned before?
20 A. Never.
21 Q. Do you know the circumstances under
22 which you happen to be charged now or how it
23 came to pass?
24 Do you have any understanding of that?
25 A. I don't follow the question.
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1 Roche
2 Q. In other words, were you told why now
3 you're being charged with riding the list, as
4 they say?
5 A. No. They are just saying I was on the
6 list while working.
7 Q. Did you admit to any situations where
8 you were, in fact, working while on the list?
9 A. No.
10 Q. What did you tell them?
11 A. I told them I had my paperwork in front
12 of me, and I said start off with whatever case
13 you want to start with and I will try to prove
14 you wrong.
15 And they told me you got too much --
16 excuse my terminology -- you got too much shit
17 against you, we're going to put it to the next
18 stage, which is, I believe -- I'm trying to
19 think of the name --
20 Q. The trial committee?
21 A. The trial committee, exactly.
22 And in 10 minutes they said you can
23 leave.
24 Now I'm waiting to hear back for
25 another date for this argument.
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1 Roche
2 Q. So what I would like, I'm going to go
3 through with all the documents I have today, and
4 all I'm entitled to is your best recollection
5 about the situation.
6 I have already told you that I'm
7 willing to -- I'm not going to make any gross
8 generalizations or charges or anything of that
9 nature. But I do want to ask you those
10 questions.
11 So I would encourage you, if you do
12 believe you were working at the time and have a
13 recollection that you were, and there are a
14 number of instances, it's important that you
15 tell me the truth, and what I have told you, if
16 there is a record I need to obtain or that you
17 have, I'm willing to wait for your counsel to
18 present them to me or say you have to subpoena
19 the employer.
20 I don't want you to concede to anything
21 you don't feel is fair to concede.
22 On the other hand, if you know in your
23 heart of hearts you were working at that time
24 it's far better to admit that than be in a
25 situation of disputing it because you're cranky
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2 about asking the question.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. So we are going to work on the October
5 situation '99, as to whether you were working or
6 not based upon your own records?
7 If your own records don't resolve it
8 I'm going to subpoena the records from the
9 company, or consider subpoenaing them. I may
10 decide it's not worth it to me to go back to
11 '99.
12 At least I want to try to resolve the
13 issue.
14 A. Okay, no problem.
15 Q. More important to me, is the entry on
16 November 1, 1999, in which you add a series of
17 skills?
18 So I would ask you to look at those
19 entries.
20 Here is the dynamic that is at least
21 significant to me.
22 At 9:16 a.m. you add the skills of
23 hardware and refrigeration. I'm just telling
24 you how I read it, you can follow me through.
25 A. Okay.
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2 Q. In other words, before 9:16 a.m. that
3 morning you did not have the skills of hardware
4 and refrigeration.
5 I have to tell you, I'm going to ask
6 you this question, because I have some knowledge
7 about refrigeration skill, as to whether or not
8 the job site actually justified a refrigeration
9 skill or not, that's one question that's coming.
10 But what is more important to me, is
11 that at 3:19 you are dispatched to a firm called
12 Eastern Architectural at 2 World Trade Center.
13 11 minutes later you're back on the
14 out-of-work list.
15 1 minute later you're dispatched to
16 Wood Pro at 2 World Trade Center, in which the
17 skills of hardware and refrigeration are
18 necessary for you to get that job.
19 My question is: How did that come to
20 be, what happened there? Do you understand why
21 I'm asking.
22 A. I know what you're saying.
23 I don't remember Eastern ever being in
24 the World Trade Center, working with them.
25 I know I was with Wood Pro, I was a
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2 shop steward, that was the last time I ever
3 worked at the World Trade Center.
4 Q. The first question, then: Why did you
5 add the skills of hardware and refrigeration on
6 the morning of November 1, 1999?
7 A. At that time, in those years, people
8 had -- I know what job was going out there, you
9 threw -- you shuffle your skills in and out and
10 you hope for the best.
11 Q. That's what I want to ask you about.
12 What was the basis -- first of all, did
13 someone recommend to you that it wouldn't be a
14 bad idea or it might be prudent for you or might
15 be a good idea for you to add the skills of
16 hardware and refrigeration that morning, that's
17 the first question.
18 A. Probably, I guess so, yes.
19 Q. I wasn't there, you have to tell me
20 what you think about it?
21 Jerry Philbin -- we can look at the
22 dispatch, I don't want to make this any more
23 difficult than it is.
24 Again, you were there and I wasn't.
25 To my uneducated eyes, it appears to me
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2 there has to be some reason, I'm not into the
3 little birdy theory of why that happened.
4 First of all, did the job require, the
5 job you eventually took at 2 World Trade Center,
6 require refrigeration?
7 A. No.
8 Q. I'm back to my question there: As
9 best you can remember, Mr. Roche, what was the
10 reason that you added hardware and refrigeration
11 that morning, if you can, if you can remember?
12 A. I guess maybe Jerry had told me, he
13 said the job was going to be put in --
14 Q. I didn't hear what you said.
15 A. I'm trying to remember back, I guess
16 Jerry had told me to -- gave me the heads up to
17 say put these in and see what happens.
18 Q. Let me ask you about that: Had Jerry
19 ever before made a recommendation to you that it
20 would be a smart to have a skill added or
21 subtracted from your out-of-work list?
22 A. In those times, yes.
23 Q. Back in '99?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And again, I want to emphasize to you,
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2 I want to take out any sting that you might be
3 feeling that this is a bad event, because in
4 many respects I don't think a lot of people
5 understood what the rules were, there is some
6 question if the people understand what the rules
7 are today.
8 It's most important, I think, just to
9 be direct, as I know you're trying to be, and
10 honest and forthright about it, because it needs
11 to be clear.
12 At the same time I don't want to you
13 guess at something, I don't want you to make
14 something up.
15 But obviously what I'm asking about
16 here, and I'm interested in is whether Jerry
17 Philbin basically suggested to you that it would
18 be a good idea to add those skills, and that's
19 what you're telling me, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When he did that, did you have in mind
22 this particular job for Wood Pro or a particular
23 job that you were looking to get?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Had you had a discussion with Jerry
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2 about getting a particular job of a certain kind
3 that would be a good job?
4 A. Not to my knowledge, no. But he knows
5 I was always looking -- I deal with woodwork.
6 Maybe at that time he knew it was a good job.
7 Q. Do you remember talking about it and
8 asking him, about it?
9 I'm trying to find out how it came to
10 pass that he is recommending you adding these
11 skills?
12 Are you calling him, this is the kind
13 of work I need, how do I get it.
14 Or is he calling you saying Peter, I
15 know you're always looking for work like this, I
16 think it's a good idea to put these skills are,
17 maybe you'll end up with a job you'll like.
18 I don't know which way it was. Maybe
19 it's both of those ways.
20 A. You go to a union meeting, find out
21 something is brewing, as we say out in the field
22 and you try to follow it through yourself.
23 It's up to you to follow it through. You
24 basically haunt the BAs.
25 I'm not saying I called this particular
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2 person. If you keep haunting him and haunting
3 them, they just want to get rid of you.
4 I'm not saying this. This man probably
5 told me to put this on at some stage. I'm not
6 sure whether he called me or I called him.
7 It could have been a conversation that
8 was in the bar the night before that I met him
9 in.
10 Q. Here is what I would like to you do for
11 me, and that is do your best to try to remember
12 as precisely as you can. This is 1999.
13 All I'm entitled to is you do your
14 best.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And so I just want to make sure I
17 understood what you just told me. And if it
18 happened here I would like to know about it.
19 But if it's a process I would like to
20 know about it as well.
21 In other words, are you telling me back
22 in 1999, hard working carpenters looking for
23 work would be constantly -- you used the word
24 "haunt," but basically inquiring or asking the
25 business agent to assist them to get a good job,
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2 would that be fair?
3 A. Not the word assist.
4 Q. You pick the word.
5 A. You would be haunting the BAs to say
6 listen, I need a job -- not me, but this is what
7 happens out there I'm looking for a job,
8 anything going.
9 You just keep going, it happens today,
10 guys keep annoying, haunting the guy. At that
11 time he would say there is a job going here, why
12 don't you shape. Why don't you do this.
13 That's what I'm trying to say.
14 These BAs are put in a position that
15 you got 608, maybe 1,000 carpenters. These
16 guys phone you, like they're celebrities. They
17 want a job, they want the job, constantly
18 saying, "where's the work, where's the work."
19 Q. The carpenters asking the BAs?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is that still happening?
22 A. No.
23 Q. When did that stop?
24 A. I can't say when it stopped. It was
25 supposed to stop at a particular time. It was
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2 up to the BA, if he was doing it on the side
3 that's his thing.
4 Right now you're not supposed to be
5 haunting him, put your name on the list or shape
6 your job. I can't say when I stopped. You
7 could be -- after a union meeting, we would hang
8 out in the bar for a few beers. If I was
9 out-of-work and somebody was working on a job, I
10 might meet him I haven't seen you for a while,
11 let's hang out.
12 They would tell you where a job is.
13 Then you would find out which BA is involved in
14 that, then you might go to see him, find out
15 where he's having a cocktail before he goes
16 home, and have a conversation.
17 He would say why don't you see the
18 foreman or shape a job.
19 Q. I sort of distinguish between getting
20 assigned as a shop steward and shaping a job and
21 being picked up by the company?
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. I guess there are instances where the
24 business agent knows the company with respect to
25 a mechanic's job and perhaps the company will
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2 pick him up at the suggestion of the BA, that's
3 one situation.
4 I'm focusing here on a shop steward
5 situation, in other words, where in essence the
6 selection is supposed to be even, and unimpacted
7 by favoritism, I think that is the fairest way
8 to deal with it.
9 In this situation here, and this is
10 '99, I think -- my question has to deal with:
11 After haunting the BA, the BA would actually
12 advise you, if you put these skills on, or --
13 talking about shop steward situations, not a
14 simple shape, what we're talking about here is a
15 shop steward situation.
16 A. They might tell you there is a job
17 going this week or a couple of jobs going in.
18 Some are woodwork, some are concrete, what do
19 you have on your list. And they would try to
20 steer you, I'll use the word, steer you that
21 way.
22 Q. Steering would mean, not trying to put
23 words in your mouth, adding or subtracting
24 skills from your skill set?
25 A. Exactly.
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1 Roche
2 Q. Because that would improve your chances
3 of getting that job, would that be fair?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is that what happened here?
6 A. It probably did.
7 Q. Do you have a specific recollection of
8 this job today, do you?
9 A. Not going back that far, no.
10 The only thing that sticks in my mind
11 with that job is it was the last job I done in
12 the trade center. I never worked there since,
13 the Towers are gone now, that always sticks in
14 my mind, that that was the last job I ever had.
15 Q. I'm trying to go more quickly given
16 this period, do you have any recollection of
17 going to the World Trade Center and -- I'm
18 looking at the dispatch here, and going to
19 Eastern architecture, an Eastern architecture
20 job and not accepting the job?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You see what the entries are, the
23 reason I'm asking the question, if you look at
24 the entries on 11-1, you add your skills in the
25 morning, they don't find you at 1:45.
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2 At 3:19 you're referred to Eastern
3 architecture at 2 World Trade.
4 And 11 minutes later, 3:30, you're back
5 on the out-of-work list.
6 I guess the reason I'm asking you this
7 is: Do you have a recollection of being
8 referred to that job and saying or deciding or
9 determining that you're not going to take it,
10 and then you're sent out 1 minute later to the
11 Wood Pro job in which the hardware refrigeration
12 skills are important again.
13 I guess what I'm asking, do you
14 remember why -- why that first job at Eastern
15 Architecture was not accepted by you.
16 A. I don't.
17 I have the same copy, I don't
18 understand why there are two jobs in one day.
19 As far as I'm concerned, I didn't think you can
20 refuse a job. You have to go to the job.
21 Q. Right.
22 A. I was never in the World Trade Center
23 with Eastern Architecture. I remember going to
24 Wood Pro. This baffles me. I don't know why
25 this is like this.
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2 As far as I'm concerned, when you
3 accept a call, when the list did get in
4 operation, when you accept a call you have to go
5 to that job site.
6 This, I don't believe I have ever seen
7 or knew about Eastern Architecture, until maybe
8 2001, you'll see it on the list later on. I
9 never remember being in the Trade Center seeing
10 anybody from Eastern Architecture.
11 Q. It's a mystery to you what this entry
12 is?
13 A. Maybe that morning Wood Pro might say
14 on the sheet, I believe if I can think back that
15 far, I met the guy from Wood Pro on the street,
16 if I'm correct I believe we had a delivery.
17 I never remember going to Eastern
18 Architecture in the World Trade Center.
19 Q. I guess, I think you have answered this
20 question, but at the I'm you don't recall having
21 in mind this Wood Pro job at 2 World Trade
22 Center.
23 A. No.
24 Q. But you do believe that it was Jerry
25 Philbin who told you you ought to add t