Please Donate to cover costs and finance law suits by NY Carpenters
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
90 CIV 5722
-against- (CSH)
DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED
BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND
JOINERS OF AMERICA, et.al.,
Defendants.
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Independent Investigator Deposition
July 30, 2004
4:00 o'clock p.m.
DEPOSITION of MICHAEL EDWARD BRENNAN,
taken by the Independent Investigator, Walter
Mack, Esq., pursuant to letter subpoena, held at
the offices of Doar, Rieck & Mack, Esqs., 217
Broadway, 7th Floor, New York, New York
10007-2911, before Stewart Nissenbaum, a Shorthand
Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New
York.
NATIONAL REPORTING INC.
A ReporterLink Systems Company
Computerized Transcription/Litigation Support Services
TEL: (877) 733-6373 <> FAX: (845) 398-8948
1 2
2 A P P E A R A N C E S:
3
4 DOAR RIECK & MACK
217 Broadway - 7th Floor
5 New York, New York 10007-2911
6 BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.
Independent Investigator
7
8 O'DWYER & BERNSTEIN, ESQS.
Attorneys for the Union
9 52 Duane Street
New York, New York 10007
10
BY: JASON FUIMAN, ESQ.
11
12
EDWARD SCARVALONE, ESQ.
13 Assistant United States Attorney
United States Department of Justice
14 86 Chambers Street
New York, New York 10007
15
16
THE LAW OFFICES OF DINO J. LOMBARDI
17 Attorneys for the Witness
52 Duane Street
18 New York, New York 10007
19 BY: DINO J. LOMBARDI, ESQ.
20
21 ALSO PRESENT:
22 DONALD SOBOCIENSKI
23 * * *
24
25
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2 MR. MACK: On the record.
3 Let me thank you for being here
4 on a Friday afternoon, and say that I am
5 Walter Mack, and I am the Independent
6 Investigator appointed by Judge Haight,
7 United States District Court Judge
8 Haight; I'm appointed pursuant to a
9 Court Order with the consent of the
10 District Council and the U.S. Attorney's
11 Office, Civil Division.
12 There is a specific Order which
13 sets forth what my objectives are, my
14 goals are, what my duties are to the
15 judge. In essence, I represent the
16 Court, and although there was consent
17 both by the Government and the District
18 Council to my appointment, my authority
19 stems from the judge's Order. That
20 authority includes a number of things.
21 One, running a hotline, which runs most
22 working hours during the time period.
23 Evaluating the Carpenters Corruption
24 Program. Providing investigations
25 concerning jobsites and the out-of-work
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2 list. And it gives me certain power and
3 authority.
4 Some of that authority requires
5 me, as I have today, to require
6 carpenters, members of the union, to
7 come in and speak to me under oath about
8 matters that have been brought to my
9 attention for investigation. When I do
10 that, I've done that a lot, and I do it
11 generally, and I'm going to make this
12 more specific to you, Mr. Brennan, in a
13 few moments, with the idea of explaining
14 it as clearly as I can.
15 In order for me to convey to the
16 judge what has happened, that is why
17 there's a stenographer here whose job it
18 is to take down everything that is said,
19 and to keep a record of it. That
20 record, when I eventually write a report
21 to the Court which is generally what I
22 do, what happens today, what you say and
23 what other people say, is put forward
24 and captured in the transcript that's
25 here. You will not get a copy of the
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2 transcript while my investigation is
3 pending, but eventually, it is my hope
4 that all transcripts will be public, and
5 you will get an opportunity to read it
6 and see what's happened. But I've
7 decided that while the investigation is
8 ongoing, I'm not going to make
9 transcripts available. Basically I work
10 for the Court, though, and I always
11 invite counsel and people if they want
12 to dispute what it is in my
13 decisionmaking, that obviously Judge
14 Haight is the ultimate person who
15 decides what I do and how I do it.
16 Now, my powers, and I don't know
17 whether your counsel has had an
18 opportunity to read the Order appointing
19 me, if you don't have it, I'll provide a
20 copy. Most people have it.
21 I guess there are a number of
22 things that I would like to just point
23 out that are important. I have no
24 independent authority --
25 MR. LOMBARDI: I do have it, and
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2 I have read it. Thanks.
3 MR. MACK: Okay. This is a
4 public document and is available to
5 anyone.
6 In essence, I'm going to
7 summarize what I think are the most
8 relevant parts of it that may be of
9 importance to you, Mr. Brennan; and
10 obviously you have valuable counsel,
11 worthy counsel with you here today. If
12 there are questions that come up, you'll
13 find that I will be very liberal
14 permitting you to leave the room and
15 talk to counsel. I know Judge Haight
16 for many, many years, and I know he
17 would be unhappy if I were unfair, or if
18 I tried to make life more difficult for
19 you at this time. I want to make sure
20 you have the benefit of asking questions
21 at any time.
22 Many people have been here. It
23 does not mean that I suspect you of any
24 wrongful conduct or that your conduct is
25 such that something is going to occur to
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2 you, and what have you. There are many
3 individuals that have come here, some
4 simply in order to aid me in being able
5 to explain to the judge about how things
6 actually work at the jobsite, and
7 procedures and practices, how they are
8 actually functioning, in the minds of
9 the experienced carpenters who deal with
10 the questions from day-to-day.
11 So I want to try to put you at
12 ease as much as I possibly can. I'm
13 sure this is probably not where you
14 selected to spend your Friday afternoon,
15 but I would also say this: That many
16 individuals have appeared here, and
17 generally my purpose is to be able to
18 describe accurately what's happening.
19 I have no independent authority
20 to impose any discipline of any kind. I
21 am simply an investigator. So, as I
22 found out that, you know, the District
23 Council has its own system of
24 discipline, which is somewhat unclear to
25 me, and I'll be more specific about that
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2 in a moment, but I, for instance, have
3 no power of my own to discipline you or
4 to impact your union membership, or what
5 have you. I can make recommendations,
6 but I have no executive authority to do
7 so. There may be others who do, but it
8 isn't me, is what it boils down to.
9 I'm generally a fact-gatherer; that's my
10 purpose, that's why I'm called an
11 investigator.
12 As I mentioned to your counsel by
13 telephone this afternoon, my most
14 important message to you, and the one of
15 greatest significance, which is one that
16 I've communicated regularly, but has not
17 always you been listened to, is the
18 importance of, once you're sworn, of
19 telling the truth under oath. I've had
20 a number of shop stewards before me --
21 who, if I have to use the word "beg,"
22 I'll use it, that I have begged them not
23 to expose themselves to what I consider
24 much worse than discipline, and that is,
25 criminal charges of lying under oath or
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2 obstructing justice.
3 What I mean is this: You'll be
4 under oath. I'm going to be asking
5 questions that are relevant to your
6 service as a carpenter; and basically
7 the law is, since I'm acting as an agent
8 of the Court, seeking to gather
9 information, that if an individual
10 either lies to me or seeks to obstruct
11 my search for the truth, those are
12 crimes, those are federal crimes, and I
13 can't think of anything that would pain
14 me more that to put a hard-working
15 carpenter in a situation of having to
16 defend themselves in a criminal action
17 in Federal or State Court.
18 Let me add my plea; I would ask,
19 and I'm sure your counsel has advised
20 you, how important it is to honor your
21 oath and tell me the truth. In fact,
22 I've gone so far as to say that even if
23 the conduct involved can be considered
24 criminal in some way, for instance tax
25 violations or false records, or things
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2 of that nature, which are matters you
3 can talk about with your counsel, that
4 if the carpenter tells me about it in
5 the course of my search for finding out
6 the truth, I will choose not to make a
7 criminal referral. I'm not a
8 prosecutor. I have been a prosecutor.
9 I have been an "against" lawyer. I'm
10 pretty knowledgeable about the system
11 and how it works. However, I can refer
12 matters, and I have referred matters to
13 criminal prosecutors when I have felt
14 that a carpenter has lied to me. So I
15 really am trying to do my very, very
16 best to make sure that when you are
17 asked a question, I will try to ask
18 simple, clear questions, and I think the
19 information I'm seeking is in the
20 interest of the District Council and the
21 Brotherhood of Carpenters. Basically
22 I'm asking questions, in my view, that
23 deal directly with what the obligations
24 of a union carpenter are. So I'm not
25 going to be asking you questions that
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2 aren't relevant to your responsibilities
3 as a union member, as a carpenter.
4 I really am reaching out, because
5 there have been people in your position,
6 when I say your position, sitting in
7 that chair, where I have basically said
8 the same thing. I say the same thing to
9 every carpenter that comes here, people
10 you know, and some you may not know, but
11 you will read about in the near future,
12 and I've said the same thing to them.
13 On occasion, more than one occasion,
14 that person has chosen to lie to me or
15 not to give me the information that is
16 true. I think they will regret that. I
17 can't predict outcome, but my own view
18 is, it is not a situation you should put
19 yourself in, especially when I say my
20 purpose is to gather facts and truth,
21 not to encourage prosecution of
22 hard-working carpenters, union members.
23 So, I'm not singling you out for
24 that warning. I give the same warning
25 to every carpenter that comes here,
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2 because my purpose is to really stand
3 for the principles that the union stands
4 for. I don't see myself in any way
5 asking anything other than what the
6 facts are on particular jobsites.
7 The reason that is important,
8 perhaps, in your case, is that the
9 contractor involved, On-Par
10 Construction, who basically you have
11 served as a shop steward for, for many
12 years -- I say many, at least a long
13 period of time -- I have your benefit
14 records with me, and I'm going to give
15 you a copy of them. Clearly, they do
16 have a reputation within the District
17 Council, and there are other jobsites
18 which you have not been shop steward at,
19 in which there has been pretty clear
20 evidence of cash being on the job and of
21 people not being included on the sheets.
22 I'm trying to avoid a situation
23 that has occurred with other contractors
24 here, where the evidence eventually
25 emerges that the jobsite was not a clean
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2 jobsite, and the shop steward was
3 complicit to some extent, agreed to some
4 extent. And the result of those
5 investigations are harsh upon the people
6 who have not been truthful with me. I'm
7 going to get off this point. Basically
8 what I'm saying is, it is my job to be
9 fair to you, to ask clear questions, and
10 to ask you questions which concern your
11 service as a shop steward.
12 My purpose is to find out what
13 the truth is, and report it accurately,
14 and to encourage the District Council to
15 take whatever remedial action
16 appropriate to take, all of which, in my
17 view, is consistent with the obligation
18 and the union's purpose, which is to
19 ensure that every union carpenter on the
20 jobsite gets paid the right wages and
21 benefits, and there's no cash on the
22 job, and the stop stewards are the
23 bastions for truth and accuracy, that
24 they are the union representatives who
25 stand for the union's purpose. That's
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2 what I'm hoping to achieve, no matter
3 how long I stay as Independent
4 Investigator. Where those obligations
5 have not been pursued, it is my purpose
6 to hold those people accountable for
7 those violations.
8 Having said that, you have many
9 rights here today, and I want to go
10 through them. You have experienced
11 counsel to represent you. Mr. Lombardi
12 has not had the misfortune of dealing
13 with me, but he will find that my
14 purpose is, you have your rights and
15 understand what's going on.
16 If at any time you wish to speak
17 to him, please let me know, and you will
18 get an opportunity to talk to him about
19 anything that goes on. What I've said,
20 what my authority is, you know, what is
21 your advice. As I said in my written
22 notice to you, you're welcome to have
23 counsel present here, in many ways it
24 makes my job easier, because if you
25 don't have counsel some of the concepts
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2 and thoughts that I present may not be
3 as clear to you. I'm not a carpenter
4 and I don't understand everything that
5 occurs on a jobsite, and that's why I
6 need to speak to you and bring the
7 carpenters in who were there and
8 understand what's happening.
9 At the same time, in a legal
10 proceeding, you do not have the
11 experience that lawyers get by doing
12 this type of thing on a day-to-day
13 basis. So, I'm glad that you do have
14 counsel here. I would say this: I am
15 of the view, and I may be wrong, and if
16 I'm wrong I apologize, that the District
17 Council may be reimbursing you for
18 Mr. Lombardi's fees in some capacity.
19 Nothing wrong with that. But I want to
20 point out a couple of things. That's
21 the District Council's decision to do
22 that or not do that. That's their role,
23 not my role. I'm glad you have counsel.
24 Mr. Lombardi, no matter who pays his
25 fees, has the obligation to represent
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2 you and you alone, and basically it is
3 my view that the District Council has a
4 program, and there have been a number of
5 lawyers appearing here who have
6 acknowledged that the District Council
7 does have a program to reimburse for a
8 certain amount.
9 I give you the following caution:
10 Mr. Lombardi's presence here is as your
11 counsel, as your lawyer, your adviser.
12 His obligation, no matter who pays the
13 fees, is to you and you alone; and
14 therefore, it is at least conceivable
15 that you may have information that is
16 arguably critical of District Council
17 people or positions. His job is to make
18 sure you understand you have to tell the
19 truth. You cannot protect the District
20 Council and he cannot encourage you to
21 protect the District Council or people
22 in it, simply because his fees may be
23 paid, in some part, by them. It is your
24 obligation. You will never be able to
25 say to Judge Haight or anyone else, gee,
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2 the reason that I didn't tell you about
3 this or about something that's critical
4 to the District Council, is because I
5 wasn't told I could say anything, or I
6 was concerned about the District
7 Council, since they were paying the
8 legal fees, or some portion of them.
9 Your job is to tell the truth.
10 Mr. Lombardi's job is to protect you,
11 even though information you may have
12 could be critical of the District
13 Council. I don't care whether it's
14 critical of the District Council or not.
15 All I want is truth and accuracy.
16 This is what is called a possible
17 conflict. I want to make sure you
18 understand that if in fact -- I'm not
19 going to make an inquiry as to what the
20 fee arrangement is, but if they are
21 paying fees of some kind, that you are
22 willing to proceed, recognizing it is
23 your obligation. If you have
24 information critical of the District
25 Council, so what? Your job is to tell
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2 the truth. If you feel that maybe his
3 advice to you will be colored because he
4 wants to be kind to the organization
5 that's paying his fees, you should tell
6 me that.
7 I'm going to ask you, are you
8 content to proceed with Mr. Lombardi,
9 even though his fees may someday be
10 reimbursed by the District Council?
11 MR. BRENNAN: Yes.
12 MR. MACK: You have a number of
13 rights here that are important: If I
14 ask a question you think you wish to
15 take the Fifth Amendment about, when I
16 say the Fifth Amendment, you have, as
17 you sit here, a right to say: Mr. Mack,
18 I refuse to answer that question because
19 it might tend to incriminate me
20 personally. You have that
21 constitutional right during this
22 proceeding. This is not a criminal
23 proceeding. I'm not a criminal
24 prosecutor. But if you were before
25 Judge Haight, you would have that right.
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2 You have that right before me. I would
3 encourage you, since you have the
4 benefit of counsel, that before you do,
5 you discuss it with Mr. Lombardi and
6 decide whether it is important for you
7 to do so. I don't really care, it is
8 your constitutional right, you exercise
9 it. It is far better to exercise the
10 Fifth Amendment right than to lie to me
11 under oath; because you have a
12 constitutional right to refuse to
13 answer, and if the answer would tend to
14 incriminate you, you should assert your
15 Fifth Amendment right. Obviously that's
16 something that you should really discuss
17 with counsel.
18 If you do in fact assert your
19 Fifth Amendment right, I have the right
20 to infer that the answer could mean
21 something of some kind. I don't have to
22 take that or make that decision, but I
23 could. I could say, well, the reason
24 that Mr. Brennan is not answering this
25 question is because the answer would be
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2 harmful to him, and therefore I can
3 include that in my report, I can refer
4 to it.
5 Like we say in legal terms, I may
6 be able to infer some evidence from it.
7 I try not to do that. I'm more looking
8 for information. But I have that right,
9 it is a right that I have. It is not a
10 criminal proceeding where, in a criminal
11 proceeding, you can't draw any inference
12 of any kind from the assertion of the
13 Fifth Amendment. So that's a lot of
14 legal back and forth. You have fine
15 counsel here who can explain that to
16 you.
17 For instance, if I ask a
18 question, which I will ask, about the
19 Times Square job: Is there cash on the
20 job or has there ever been cash on the
21 job, do you have any knowledge about it?
22 That might be a question that might be,
23 I don't know that it is, but you could
24 assert the Fifth Amendment to that if
25 you felt your answer might tend to
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2 incriminate you. It would be far better
3 to do that than to not tell the truth.
4 That's a difficult question, it
5 is something you really should discuss
6 with counsel. I'm not expecting you to
7 assert the Fifth Amendment. I'm not
8 encouraging you to do so. I want to
9 make sure: That guy Mack never told me
10 I could refuse to answer the question.
11 There's a record being made. I
12 will use the record. There will be
13 other investigative steps. The matter
14 will proceed.
15 I'm going to tell you a little
16 bit about why you're here. You're not
17 going to be the only On-Par shop steward
18 that's going to be here; there are going
19 to be others. I'm going to give you an
20 idea of the allegations that have been
21 made that I'm investigating. I didn't
22 pick your name out of a hat and
23 basically decide to impact your Friday
24 afternoon, and make it difficult. One
25 of my purposes is to investigate those
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2 allegations and to find out whether they
3 are valid or not. I have no
4 presupposition about that point. And my
5 viewpoint is, that I want to hear your
6 side and understand -- I won't say
7 "side" -- I want to hear your
8 information and hear what you have to
9 tell me. And I have the authority to
10 subpoena records from On-Par, I have the
11 authority to get records from a variety
12 of other sources. I may decide to do
13 that, I may not decide to do that. I
14 usually do not discuss, except with the
15 Anticorruption Committee, what goes on
16 here. In other words, I try to limit my
17 comments to the Anticorruption Committee
18 at the District Council. I don't always
19 tell them what I'm doing. I work for
20 Judge Haight.
21 When I make up my mind what I
22 want to say, I'm going to write it up in
23 a report an submit it to him. I'm going
24 to give the District Council and the
25 Government an opportunity to respond. I
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2 may even give your counsel, I'm not
3 sure, if it turns out to be critical of
4 you, as I have in the past where I felt
5 somebody's behavior has been implicated,
6 sometimes I give them an opportunity to
7 come back or to provide more
8 information. It depends what's
9 happening, is what it boils down to.
10 I guess one final thing, and
11 we'll move on, and I'll explain who is
12 here and we'll get started. It is
13 difficult at times, especially near the
14 end of the week, I will ask you a lot of
15 questions, we'll go into detail on
16 things, I'll be giving you copies of
17 various documents, and at the very end
18 of the day, and hopefully we'll conclude
19 reasonably early here, but at some later
20 time, if you feel that you have not
21 accurately stated something, for
22 whatever reason, mistake of memory,
23 something new occurred, you will have
24 the opportunity, after consultation with
25 counsel, to come back to me or write me
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2 a letter and say: Look, I want to
3 correct something that was said here, or
4 there's something more you have to know
5 about it. I will review that again at
6 the end, but what I'm trying to do is be
7 as efficient and quick as I can be today
8 to go over some of the matters that are
9 of concern. I'm going to give you a
10 little idea right now of some of the
11 allegations that may have been made so
12 you can be thinking about that, as we go
13 through today's work.
14 In essence, the issues, not only
15 for you, but for your jobsite, and these
16 are allegations that have come through
17 the hotline and through other
18 investigations, they deal primarily with
19 On-Par jobsites, and maybe you've heard
20 about these, maybe you haven't. I want
21 to give you some idea of the subject
22 matter so you know what the situation
23 is.
24 Specifically, with respect to the
25 jobsite that you have been the shop
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2 steward on, that there's cash on the
3 job, there has been cash on the job,
4 that the shop steward reports are
5 inaccurate in material respects. These
6 are allegations, these are things that
7 have come in on the hotline from a
8 variety of sources. That you are on
9 occasion not present at the jobsite, in
10 other words, on the shop steward reports
11 you are present when you're not there;
12 that On-Par, you know, On-Par moves
13 people around back and forth without
14 observance of the out-of-work list
15 rules. That the 50/50 on the job is
16 inaccurate and not reliable and not
17 consistent with what the rules are.
18 Let me see if there's anything
19 here -- those are the general nature of
20 the allegations, primarily. On-Par is
21 routinely complained about on other
22 jobsites, not only yours. And there
23 have been a number of raids by the
24 District Council in which, in fact, you
25 know, carpenters have been found who are
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2 not on the sheets -- not with you, I
3 don't want to say that, but with other
4 shop stewards. And there have been
5 admissions by On-Par representatives
6 that they neglected to call in overtime,
7 that they meant to tell the shop steward
8 there would be carpenters on a site at
9 night, but they didn't.
10 On-Par's record, at least in my
11 limited experience, has not been
12 perfect. I will give them an
13 opportunity to respond to those
14 allegations, but I want to be clear and
15 fair to you in saying, those raids,
16 those results have not been at the
17 jobsite -- is it 7 Times Square?
18 MR. BRENNAN: Times Square Tower.
19 I put Times Square Tower. That's what
20 it is called.
21 MR. MACK: I want to be honest
22 with you, so that --
23 MR. BRENNAN: That particular
24 job.
25 MR. MACK: That particular job.
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2 Other On-Par jobs --
3 MR. BRENNAN: I'm talking that
4 particular job I happen to be on.
5 MR. MACK: What I'm saying is,
6 that we have not, do not have direct
7 evidence by raid or by admission of
8 On-Par, on your jobsite, the one that
9 you are the shop steward on. But we
10 have allegations that those things have
11 occurred, and that's one of the reasons
12 why we are here today. I make it a
13 point of trying to be direct with
14 whoever the witness is, why me? Why am
15 I here? That's the reason, we are
16 investigating allegations of that nature
17 and basically I want to hear from you
18 and what the evidence is, so I have a
19 better idea of the situation. Okay.
20 I'm going to introduce everybody
21 who is here. Obviously, Mr. Lombardi is
22 your counsel. Let me ask him now, is
23 there anything you would like to ask or
24 any uncertainties or questions that need
25 to be clarified before we begin?
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2 MR. LOMBARDI: Nothing, just to
3 ask my client: Is there anything you
4 want to talk to me about based upon what
5 Mr. Mack has said so far?
6 MR. BRENNAN: Not at this time.
7 MR. MACK: Let me introduce
8 everybody else who are generally here at
9 my invitation and who they are and who
10 they represent.
11 To the right of Mr. Lombardi is
12 Jason Fuiman, an attorney who represents
13 the District Council. He is here at my
14 invitation. I actually have also
15 invited, if they wish to send a
16 carpenter official, my feeling is, I
17 want to have the benefit of their
18 experience, if the District Council has
19 subjects that they think ought to be
20 raised they can raise them. If you or
21 counsel wish to talk to a District
22 Council representative, you can be
23 excused to do that. They are also here,
24 as they do frequently, to raise
25 questions, or ask questions themselves,
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2 because their knowledge and familiarity
3 with the District Council and the local
4 unions is far grater than mine, and I
5 think it is fair that they be here so
6 that they can ask questions, one way or
7 the other, and make sure that I don't
8 overlook important things that need be
9 said.
10 I would say this. There have
11 been shop stewards or other carpenters
12 who have specifically requested to see
13 me without a representative of the
14 District Council, and I have always
15 honored that request. I want you to
16 know that, that there have been
17 situations where carpenters have said
18 that they would -- I see them
19 frequently, to be perfectly honest, --
20 we get called all the time from
21 individuals who do not wish either to be
22 known or wish to discuss something in
23 private with me and the people who work
24 with me, and I honor those requests.
25 And so I tell you that, I tell that
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2 basically to anyone who calls here. We
3 run the hotline. We talk to many people
4 who do not wish their identities to be
5 known, concerning subject matters or
6 topics.
7 You have that same right as any
8 carpenter, and we have talked to many
9 carpenters on a frequent basis about
10 things that occur, some of whom we know,
11 some of whom we don't know. The real
12 coin of the realm is the accuracy of the
13 data that they provide.
14 Our job is to honor our
15 obligation, or my obligation to Judge
16 Haight, and any way I can get that
17 information and do that fairly and
18 thoroughly, I will take that. But the
19 District Council representative is
20 welcome at these formal proceedings.
21 The gentleman sitting to my left
22 is an Assistant United States Attorney,
23 Mr. Ed Scarvalone. He represents the
24 Civil Division. He is not a prosecutor.
25 He is basically responsible for
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2 representing the Government before Judge
3 Haight. As I'm sure you know, the
4 United States are the individuals who
5 originally brought the civil case before
6 Judge Haight, more than fourteen years
7 or so ago, and Mr. Scarvalone is here as
8 a representative of the Government, also
9 at my invitation, to ensure that if
10 there are topics or matters that he
11 feels should be asked, or that I have
12 overlooked on a question, he has that
13 same right as the District Council does.
14 That's what it boils down to.
15 The gentleman sitting to go my
16 right is the person on the Independent
17 Investigator's staff most knowledgeable
18 and that's Don Sobocienski; he works
19 with me, he is part of Independent
20 Investigator's team. He is the one
21 probably who has made a number of
22 jobsite visits, talks to many, many more
23 carpenters than I do, and he is here to
24 ensure that I don't overlook details, or
25 to assist me in making sure that I'm
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2 asking the appropriate questions, or if
3 there are topics that I've overlooked.
4 The even more handsome gentleman
5 to his right is the court stenographer
6 who is basically working are for me, but
7 in essence, his job is to take down an
8 accurate record of what's said here
9 today so I have the benefit of that, and
10 the judge has the benefit of that at
11 some time in the future.
12 That being said, are there any
13 questions or any issues or anything you
14 would like the raise, either you or
15 counsel, before we begin?
16 MR. LOMBARDI: Do you want to
17 discuss anything with me right now?
18 MR. BRENNAN: No.
19 MR. MACK: Feel free to do it.
20 We'll take breaks. He's the hardest
21 working guy in here, the court
22 stenographer, and we'll be taking a
23 break in about 25 minutes, and we are
24 going to keep going, having breaks every
25 so often. What I told you, I mean. If
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2 you don't understand my question: What
3 are you asking me, I don't know. We are
4 relatively informal.
5 MR. BRENNAN: If any time I want
6 to speak to my counsel?
7 MR. MACK: Just tell me. My
8 purpose is to ensure you have access to
9 your lawyer for whatever you need to do,
10 because that really is an important part
11 of Mr. Lombardi's presence here, that
12 you have access to him whenever you need
13 it. Fair enough?
14 MR. BRENNAN: Yes, sir.
15 M I C H A E L E D W A R D B R E N N A N,
16 the witness herein, being first duly sworn by
17 Stewart Nissenbaum, a Notary Public of the
18 State of New York, was examined and testified
19 as follows:
20 EXAMINATION BY
21 MR. MACK:
22 Q Now, Mr. Brennan, what I'm going
23 to try to do is proceed in a reasonably
24 orderly fashion today, starting with some
25 fundamental questions, proceeding through
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2 questions I have about the jobsite at Times
3 Square Tower, however you call it.
4 I want to start with certain
5 basic questions. I will be handing out --
6 and I know you've brought some documents with
7 you, but since it is my obligation to prepare
8 exhibits as well, I'm going to hand out to
9 you and your counsel a variety of different
10 exhibits so that you are able to refer to
11 them.
12 And because some of them are
13 quite specific and refer to your job referral
14 history, I would like you to take the time,
15 when necessary, it is entirely up to you, if
16 I ask you a question, to be familiar with the
17 record. Look at the record. If you need to
18 go out, say you need to see this for a few
19 moments -- you're the expert on your own
20 work. I have now been going through these
21 records of many different carpenters, so it
22 is a little bit easier for me, because I have
23 been trained on how to do it -- you take
24 whatever time you need today to follow what's
25 happening, and look at the record.
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2 I'm going to hand out a number of
3 those records right now so they are available
4 to you and your counsel. They have a letter
5 and number designation, and those number
6 designations mean absolutely nothing, other
7 than a way for me to keep track of what I've
8 given you.
9 The first thing I'm going the
10 give you is what has been marked as MEB-2,
11 and this is what has been furnished to me as
12 your benefit records, which gives me an idea
13 basically who has paid benefits for you for
14 when. I'm going to give copies of that to
15 your counsel.
16 (Benefit record from District
17 Council marked Exhibit MEB-2, this
18 date.)
19 MR. FUIMAN: Thank you.
20 Q One thing I think is helpful. If
21 you would like to talk to your counsel, I ask
22 that you leave, otherwise the court reporter
23 will take it down. I don't want to capture
24 your communication with counsel.
25 A Is this your record.
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2 Q No, this is furnished to me. All
3 of these records are furnished to me through
4 the District Council at my request.
5 A A layman like myself --
6 MR. LOMBARDI: Hold it. Let him
7 ask the question.
8 Q So they are designed -- I don't
9 know that I'm going to spent a lot of time on
10 these benefit records, because they are
11 relatively straightforward. The purpose of
12 them is to give me an idea who you've worked
13 for, for the period of time, and you can
14 refer to them or not refer to them, because I
15 don't think they are particularly relevant to
16 the questions I have today. But I want to
17 give you access to them.
18 Certainly one thing that stands
19 out will be, you know, the -- in essence,
20 your long work for On-Par, which is pretty
21 much, you'll see, starting around October
22 2000, running up to the present. That
23 probably is one of the most significant -- if
24 there is significance to these records, and
25 they are more for your use and availability
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2 than anything else.
3 A All right.
4 Q Okay. I'm also going to give you
5 what I would call your job history, which is
6 what the out-of-work list printout is, that's
7 MEB-3, the records about you and your
8 service. That will play a part in a number
9 of questions I will ask of you today.
10 (Work history marked Exhibit
11 MEB-3, this date.)
12 Q Then finally, I'm going to hand
13 you what has been marked as MEB-4, which is
14 what I would call, although I think there's a
15 mistake in them, at least you will have
16 these, we will talk about them, your dispatch
17 history, meaning how you were dispatched as
18 far as the District Council records are
19 concerned, to a particular jobsite, with what
20 skills and when and where. It is a record
21 maintained by the District Council of how you
22 went to a particular jobsite, as far as they
23 are concerned. You, of course, are the most
24 important witness on that topic, but these
25 are the records maintained at the District
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2 Council. Those are MEB-4.
3 (Dispatch history marked Exhibit
4 MEB-4, this date.)
5 Q I'm handing them out early on,
6 but you should feel comfortable at any time
7 you wish to refer to them, if they are of
8 value to you, to refer to them. And when it
9 is important to me, I'm going to mention them
10 specifically and try to refer you to a
11 particular page or document so that you can
12 follow along with me.
13 Would you like to take sometime
14 now, to take a look at them?
15 A Yes.
16 MR. MACK: Why don't we take a
17 five-minute break and you can spend
18 sometime looking at them.
19 (Short recess taken.)
20 MR. MACK: Back on the record.
21 Q I will do the best I can, as we
22 go through, to try to direct your attention
23 to the documents, and specifically where they
24 may be relevant. They are yours to use and
25 to take with you today. Okay? They are
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2 basically your records and they pertain to
3 you. Therefore, they would be available to
4 you in any event.
5 Now, having said all that, let's
6 get started here. I notice -- your home
7 address is in Bushkill, Pennsylvania?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And approximately how far away
10 from the City is that, in terms of travel
11 time?
12 A It's approximately 83 miles.
13 Q In terms of getting -- when you
14 are working, let's say at Midtown, how long a
15 commute is that for you, basically; about how
16 long does it take you to get into the City?
17 A It takes me about an hour and ten
18 minutes.
19 Q Each way?
20 A Yes. I travel early in the
21 morning. When I'm in the City, like on a
22 7:00 start, I'm their at six o'clock in the
23 morning before the foreman on any job, which
24 amazes a lot of guys. When you do that
25 traveling, you got to go early. I'm up at
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2 3:00 o'clock in the morning.
3 Q Wow. What time do you get home
4 at night?
5 A It depends if we are working
6 overtime; then I have to wait or my regular
7 time, 3:30, lately I commute with a guy from
8 Con Ed, we leave the City at 3:30. It takes
9 an hour and a half at that time. You can't
10 leave after 5:00; then you get sucked in.
11 Q No question. I would like you
12 to -- please forgive my ignorance, but I want
13 to ask you about a number of skills that are
14 listed for you. I think I have some idea,
15 but there's some I have no idea or I don't
16 have a complete idea of what they are. When
17 I talk about your skills, I want to make sure
18 that you know what I'm looking at. It is
19 actually the skills listed on the third page
20 of MEB-3. Why don't you -- I'm not going to
21 ask you about every one there, but I'm going
22 to ask you about a couple that I need to
23 understand what they are.
24 Take a moment and look at the
25 third page of MEB-3.
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2 (Pause.)
3 Q You will see what at least as of
4 19 June 2003, the skills that were listed for
5 you. I'm going to ask you about several of
6 them. Now, the notice -- maybe I'll get this
7 out of the way here -- the notice -- I might
8 as well mark it and produce it -- that
9 required your presence, at some time was
10 marked MEB-1. I'm going to give you a copy
11 of that now. You should have received a copy
12 of that at some time.
13 (Subpoena, notice to appear,
14 marked Exhibit MEB-1, this date.)
15 MR. MACK: Here is a copy for
16 you gentlemen.
17 Q As you may see or may be reminded
18 there, one of the things we asked for were
19 records and certifications for union
20 carpentry-related skills and training that
21 you presently possess. To summarize what you
22 told me before we started, you didn't bring
23 any with you, but that the District Council
24 should have those records?
25 A Right. When I took my courses at
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2 the District Council, you get a certificate,
3 like for the hardwood flooring. When I took
4 the MTA, which isn't on here, for the
5 eight-hour practical, not a lot of guys got
6 that, that's the safety class you have to
7 have for the MTA. A lot of them have the
8 Metro-North one, but I have that. I went to
9 Brooklyn to do all that, took a day off of
10 work and went down there. Four-hour
11 practical, four hours standing on the tracks.
12 That's not on here, but I have that.
13 Q Listen to what I'm going to be
14 asking you now. First of all, let me say
15 this. --
16 A Some certificates you don't have.
17 Q I understand that, too. I want
18 you to be absolutely certain, because this
19 has come up from time to time, you know; the
20 fact that a carpenter is obtaining skills and
21 going to school and adding skills is
22 certainly something that I certainly approve
23 of and encourage, and I'm as skill-oriented
24 as anyone could possibly be in terms of
25 appreciating and recognizing the
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2 professionalism of somebody who does that.
3 Please don't take the fact that we are
4 spending time on these, in any way as a
5 criticism of obvious efforts to add skills to
6 the list. Obviously the more trained and
7 more professional you are, the greater
8 service you are to the union and to the
9 contractor you work for.
10 I do want to ask you about a
11 couple of skills, if you can just explain to
12 me what they are, and maybe when you got
13 them.
14 Secondly, if I need to go to the
15 District Council to verify, and I certainly
16 have done that, I will do that; if that's
17 what's necessary. Let me focus on the skills
18 that are of significance to me today. It
19 won't be all of them.
20 Now, one of your skills that's
21 listed is called hollow metal storefronts.
22 You see that?
23 A Hollow metal storefronts.
24 Q Could you explain to me what that
25 means? What is that skill?
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2 A That's the aluminum trim, like a
3 window trim. Just what you're looking at
4 right there, Walter. You build a little
5 storefront out of the store, you're building
6 a Dunkin Donuts, you have the aluminum. I
7 broke in doing siding and roofing. That's
8 the storefront.
9 Q Was this a skill that is taught
10 at the District Council, or how did you get
11 that skill listed?
12 A You have to have that skill, I
13 believe.
14 MR. LOMBARDI: Make sure you let
15 Mr. Mack finish the question before you
16 begin to answer, because this gentleman
17 won't be able to get it all down
18 accurately.
19 MR. MACK: So I'll try to do
20 that. It makes it a lot easier for
21 Mr. Nissenbaum, because he gets violent
22 as the day goes on, if we don't do that.
23 Q In other words, when one lists
24 hollow metal storefront, that's something
25 that you can list without having to go to
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2 school?
3 A Right.
4 Q Now, I think I understand what
5 you've described. Let me ask you a couple of
6 other, what it means. I know what protection
7 is, but when you list it as a skill. What
8 does that mean, that you can oversee putting
9 protection up on a jobsite? Is that what
10 that means, or what does it mean, in your
11 mind?
12 A Protection, that's a particularly
13 prickly subject. We are, as carpenters, the
14 laborers have taken over protection on a
15 major jobsite, the orange netting,
16 maintaining the cable, the cable, strings on
17 stairs, temporary stairs, you have to make
18 the stairs from floor to floor, handrails up
19 and down the stairs. If you didn't have the
20 carpenters, -- you come to jobsites, you see
21 the laborers doing that, there are arguments.
22 That's half of my job. Running 48 floors,
23 the guy putting the fire coating on the steel
24 when he cuts my net, we'll put it back. You
25 will pay the carpenter to put it back. Or it
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2 would have been On-Par on a highrise.
3 Q When you list it as a skill, what
4 are you saying to the contractor when you
5 list that as a skill?
6 A That I can do the protection on
7 the job.
8 Q So, in other words --
9 A I'm not going to go freezing
10 thirty floors up on the edge of the building,
11 running the net or overseeing men running
12 that, either.
13 Q It is protection not only for the
14 workers, but also maybe for the public as
15 well?
16 A Right. I usually have an
17 apprentice and myself do the whole thing, a
18 couple of them. That's it.
19 Q Thank you.
20 Let me ask you several others.
21 Laboratory furniture.
22 It is spelled wrong on your
23 skill- set, it is listed. What does that
24 mean?
25 A That's the installation of Bunsen
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2 burners and stuff like that in the
3 laboratory, the onyx formica countertops.
4 When you went to a chemistry lab in college,
5 you had your Bunsen burners, it's the
6 installation of that countertop.
7 Q Is that a skill taught by the
8 District Council?
9 A No.
10 Q It means what it says, in other
11 words, materials or implements or desks that
12 are meant for a laboratory; is that correct?
13 A Right, we have certain companies
14 that do that work, if you're working in a
15 school. You wouldn't do that in your house.
16 Q But I mean, for instance, if
17 you're doing a normal -- I mean, let's talk
18 about Times Square Tower, would laboratory
19 furniture be a skill needed for that type of
20 job?
21 A No.
22 Q Foreman/layout. What does that
23 skill mean? I know you have it there, you've
24 had it for some time, there's been some
25 debate about it, but in your mind what does
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2 foreman/layout as a skill mean?
3 A I'm capable of being a foreman
4 and I can lay a job out, people take a shop
5 steward class -- I have done all that. I
6 worked my way up in almost eighteen years in
7 this union. So, that's if someone called the
8 District Council and needed a foreman and my
9 name was on the list. That's been on my
10 sheet before I was a shop steward, they could
11 select me. Okay, we have a foreman on the
12 list, Mike Brennan, he can do foreman work.
13 Q This is a matter that's been of
14 discussion with the District Council for some
15 time, because they have yet to be able to
16 find the dispatch of anybody as a foreman to
17 a jobsite, although there may be some. I've
18 heard there are some, but I've never seen
19 one, so that the actual foreman is selected
20 through the out-of-work list by going to the
21 shop steward; there may be some.
22 Have you ever been, yourself,
23 selected as foreman with this skill?
24 A No, I haven't.
25 Q So one of the questions that gets
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2 raised is: As a normal matter, it is the
3 company who selects who the foreman is; and
4 another question that's raised is, well, what
5 this skill really means is that this person
6 could be a foreman, but more significantly,
7 that they have the talent to do layout, even
8 if they are not the foreman.
9 Do you have a view as to this
10 skill? What are your thoughts?
11 A I have a thought, and my thought
12 is, I don't know how and in what order and
13 who puts these together in the District
14 Council, okay, but I would say, I'm not a
15 skilled person at this, but the way it is
16 written, foreman/layout, is not the way it
17 should be on my list.
18 There's one qualification. It
19 should be that I can lay out and I can also
20 be a foreman. I did not certainly put that
21 on my list. I put layout, and I also could
22 be a foreman, if needed. That's how it
23 should be. It shouldn't be one
24 qualification. This is the first time I'm
25 reading something like this; so, if my view,
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2 it should be the layout should be down here
3 on the UBS system as another qualification.
4 I didn't lump them together like that.
5 Q I happen to agree with you. My
6 view is that the skill should be separate.
7 So you and I start off agreeing on that.
8 Correct?
9 A Correct.
10 Q We agree?
11 A Yes. I thought they were
12 separate, foreman/layout.
13 Q We are not alone in that
14 agreement. I want you to know that.
15 A Right.
16 Q Let me go to the next skill.
17 Welder. You have welder listed there, and so
18 I am interested in whether or not you hold
19 any certificates as a welder.
20 A No; I don't hold a New York State
21 certification because of my age. When I went
22 to get certified, they were taking welders.
23 We do welding, and some jobs you have to
24 tack-weld door bucks, the tack breaks and you
25 have to tack-weld them. On certain jobs of
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2 welding, you get to the job and you have to
3 be able to weld.
4 Q Let me just make sure I'm clear.
5 This is also a subject that has been
6 discussed before today. If I'm understanding
7 what you're saying, you have not been to
8 school to receive a welder's certificate?
9 A No.
10 Q When you say no, you mean you
11 agree with me, basically, you don't have a
12 certificate as a welder?
13 A No, it doesn't say a certified
14 welder. It says welder. No, I do not.
15 MR. LOMBARDI: Listen to the
16 question.
17 Q I just want to make sure that
18 when the skill is listed, in your mind, or
19 what is being said there, in your mind, is
20 that you know how to weld and you have welded
21 on jobsites, but you are not a school-trained
22 or certificate-holding welder?
23 A It is a skill of mine. I'm not
24 school-trained. It is still a skill.
25 Q I got you. I mention this
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2 because Mr. Fuiman from the District Council
3 is here, that one of the topics we've
4 discussed as to whether a welder skill should
5 be listed, given the fact that it is now a
6 certificate obligation; and that is
7 something -- this doesn't directly concern
8 you, Mr. Brennan, because you're not the only
9 person who's been here to say exactly what
10 you said about listing welder as a skill, as
11 one of your skills that are there. But the
12 District Council may be in a different
13 situation, they may need to differentiate a
14 welder, school-trained certificate-holding
15 welder versus an individual with experience
16 and know-how. That's their problem; not your
17 problem.
18 A Right.
19 Q I guess my final question with
20 respect to skills -- I think I know the
21 answer to this, but I would like your
22 expertise. What are floating floors?
23 A It's like a concrete floor, you
24 build up on top of a sub-floor and it
25 actually floats. You see them if you've ever
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2 been to Terrace on the Park, the whole floor,
3 I had my prom there years ago, that was the
4 first floating floor I was on.
5 Q Is that a school-taught item?
6 A No.
7 Q Is the skill of floating floors
8 school-taught or not, or is that something
9 that is there based upon experience?
10 MR. LOMBARDI: In his case?
11 MR. MACK: Yes.
12 A That's based upon experience.
13 Q Do you know whether there's a
14 certificate or a specific training regimen
15 given by some organization that teaches
16 floating floors?
17 A No. That would have --
18 MR. LOMBARDI: Is that your
19 answer. Do you know of any such thing?
20 You're not asking, Walter, just
21 about the District Council.
22 Q Are you aware of any place that
23 teaches you, certifies you on floating
24 floors?
25 A You need the word "certified."
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2 This is a skill, carpentry is 80 percent
3 common sense. You have to get an old-timer
4 to teach you the skill. Whether it's
5 certified or not, you have been taught the
6 skill.
7 Q I don't reject that.
8 A That's a skill.
9 Q But --
10 A If somebody is building a
11 floating floor, does anybody have experience
12 in floating floor; that's why it is on the
13 list.
14 Q I don't doubt that or challenge
15 that in any way. All I'm trying to determine
16 is, as there is in welding, there is a
17 certificate that is issued for some, there's
18 a school. I wondered whether that's the same
19 case with floating floors or not, if you
20 know?
21 A I don't know.
22 MR. LOMBARDI: That's your
23 answer.
24 Q So be it. What I would like to
25 do is to pick up with your work referral
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2 history, which again I would suggest you keep
3 the same exhibit, which is MEB-3, which is
4 the document we were just in, and I think --
5 I think it is the fifth page in. It starts,
6 the top date is April 12, 1999. Help
7 yourself to water as you need it. Then I
8 would also ask you to take a look at MEB-4,
9 at the same time, and you may not be able to
10 remember this.
11 I know that some folks would say
12 that I shouldn't be asking about 1999
13 subjects, because they are so long ago, but
14 I'm going to try to move through them
15 quickly.
16 Your first listing that we have
17 for you on the out-of-work list is April 12,
18 1999. That's what that MEB-3 page shows. Do
19 you have any independent recollection, as you
20 sit here today, of the circumstances under
21 which you initially listed yourself on the
22 out-of-work list?
23 MR. LOMBARDI: At that time?
24 MR. MACK: At that time.
25 Q In other words, -- take your
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2 time.
3 MR. LOMBARDI: Do you have an
4 independent recollection, as you sit
5 here today?
6 A I don't know if it's a
7 recollection or not, but it is possible
8 that's when the list started at the District
9 Council.
10 Q It's pretty close to then.
11 A That's why my name was on the
12 list at that time.
13 Q The very next day, April 13th,
14 1999, you are dispatched, and it is --
15 actually you'll see the dispatch; I think it
16 is actually the first three documents in
17 MEB-4, those are the records that we have
18 regarding your very first dispatch that we
19 have a record of. I know you have worked for
20 18 years. I'm going to start there, because
21 that's the beginning of out-of-work list. Do
22 you have any recollection about that job at
23 All Star Drywall?
24 MR. LOMBARDI: Does he have any
25 recollection of the job.
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2 MR. MACK: Of the job and
3 dispatch.
4 A That's at NYU. Do I remember the
5 job? Yes.
6 Q Again I'm going to refer to the
7 records, and the records are -- they speak
8 for themselves, but in essence, the records
9 seem to reflect that Mike Ford was the
10 individual who called that job in.
11 MR. LOMBARDI: Which record,
12 specifically?
13 MR. MACK: You'll see it is the
14 second page of MEB-4.
15 A I wasn't present when anybody
16 called it --
17 MR. LOMBARDI: No question
18 pending.
19 Q My question is, I guess, first of
20 all, was Mike Ford a business agent at 608 at
21 the time?
22 A I believe so.
23 Q I'm not going to spend a lot of
24 time on this. Would it be fair to say that
25 you are friendly with Mike Ford, or how would
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2 you describe your relationship with Mr. Ford?
3 MR. LOMBARDI: As of April '99?
4 MR. MACK: As of April '99.
5 Let's leave it there.
6 A Mike Ford, at that time, I think
7 was the President of the Local.
8 Q Do you, yourself, have any
9 recollection of the dispatch of you to this
10 jobsite here at 246 Green Street?
11 A Do I remember the guy calling me?
12 Q Do you remember anything that you
13 knew about the job or how it came to be that
14 you got dispatched to that job?
15 A The District Council called me.
16 Q Do you remember who called you,
17 or was it one of the operators at the
18 District Council?
19 A Yeah, the dispatcher. I don't
20 know them.
21 Q Did you know anything about this
22 job, if you can remember, before you received
23 notice of it from the District Council?
24 A Not that I remember.
25 Q Now, you'll notice that the skill
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2 of laboratory furniture was one of the skills
3 that was listed for this job. Do you
4 remember whether or not there was a
5 laboratory furniture component of this job or
6 part of this job?
7 A I think in the basement there was
8 classrooms at NYU, in Waverly Place; is that
9 where we are?
10 Q Take your time. I can interpret
11 these, but most of the data should be there
12 on the document.
13 MR. LOMBARDI: Don't guess, but
14 based upon either your independent
15 recollection or looking at these
16 documents now, do you recall today
17 whether there was laboratory furniture
18 work on that job?
19 THE WITNESS: I couldn't swear to
20 it, but there was classrooms we built in
21 the basement. That's where it came into
22 play, that qualification.
23 Q If you can remember, and I
24 realize it's some time ago, but I want to try
25 to get you to remember, if you can, and
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2 that's why I want you to feel free to look at
3 these documents and the skills and the
4 location, whether or not there was any
5 laboratory furniture work done at this
6 jobsite, and if so, where.
7 A I thought I answered that. In
8 the basement in Waverly Place. Waverly and
9 Green is the building.
10 Q Were they classrooms or were they
11 laboratories?
12 A Class -- we built classrooms. It
13 was in a building with an old carriage house,
14 and underneath, NYU extended the space they
15 have.
16 Q Was there any work done there
17 that you would say, gee, that was laboratory
18 furniture work done, like Bunsen burners or
19 things we talked about doing? Was anything
20 like that done at that jobsite, if you
21 remember?
22 MR. LOMBARDI: If you recall.
23 A I can't recall.
24 Q Did you yourself do any layout
25 work on this jobsite, if you remember?
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2 THE WITNESS: Can I answer him?
3 A Being a steward, I do a lot of
4 layout work. I do layout work on this job.
5 MR. LOMBARDI: Do you remember
6 specifically?
7 THE WITNESS: I don't remember in
8 1999.
9 MR. LOMBARDI: If you can, he is
10 asking do you have a recollection of
11 layout work.
12 THE WITNESS: The shop steward
13 and the foreman are the first guys
14 there, and they lay the job out for two
15 or three days.
16 Q Is it your recollection that you
17 in fact did that on this jobsite?
18 A Yes, I did.
19 Q Take your time.
20 A Yes, it is my recollection.
21 Q Okay. All Star Drywall, was --
22 the first record I have -- was that the first
23 time you worked for this company?
24 A I don't recall.
25 Q Was All Star Drywall a company
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2 that's been in existence for a long period of
3 time, if you know? I'm just really asking
4 the origin of All Star Drywall.
5 A I don't really know how long they
6 are in existence. I know that they are not
7 in existence at this present time, and for
8 the past year, so --
9 Q Did All Star Drywall, if you
10 know, and you may not know, get founded or
11 started by an individual who had previously
12 worked for Donaldson?
13 A No idea.
14 Q Do you remember how long the job,
15 approximately how long the job lasted at this
16 location, Green and Waverly? You can feel
17 free to refer to your job referral history or
18 work history, if that's of value to you.
19 MR. LOMBARDI: Look at anything
20 you want.
21 Q This may be of help to you. But,
22 in essence, I see you back on the out-of-work
23 list on July 27, 1999?
24 A On -- July what?
25 Q I'm looking at MEB --
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2 A I have a sheet here from 4/12 for
3 that address.
4 Q That's the dispatch. In fact,
5 you've just looked at that.
6 MR. LOMBARDI: You're looking at
7 the shop steward report.
8 MR. MACK: Okay.
9 A You're talking three months,
10 Walter, if that's the answer to the question.
11 Q Let me ask you one question, and
12 I think we'll deal with a lot of, has there
13 ever been a time that you have put yourself
14 on the out-of-work list when you were in fact
15 working?
16 A I don't recall that. I usually
17 am good about that, so --
18 Q I mean, has there been a time,
19 and I have the record, and there's some times
20 where at least it is very close, very close.
21 What I would like to do is, if
22 you can think back, you know, obviously, you
23 don't put your name on the out-of-work list
24 unless you're out of work, that's the basic
25 concept of calling it the out-of-work list.
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2 What I would like you to do maybe in a break,
3 that's why I have it, I would like you to
4 ponder that question, because if there was an
5 instance where you did put your name on the
6 out-of-work list when you were in fact
7 working, I would like to know that. It will
8 save us some time today. So you may have a
9 recollection of it --
10 A I don't have a recollection of
11 that at this time. But in a break, I'll go
12 over my records, but I don't think I was. At
13 some times, according to the records that we
14 have here, my name is on the list. If I
15 called and told them to take my name off and
16 it still stayed on there, then how am I at
17 fault? I don't know what I'm looking at yet
18 until I actually see it.
19 Q That's a question, that's a broad
20 question, but it is one in which it is a
21 question here, you have the benefit records,
22 you have your listing and when you're on the
23 list, when you're not on the list, and maybe
24 later in the day, I might come up with a
25 couple of instances where at least there's a
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2 question about it.
3 But I would like to ask that
4 question of you, because, you know, there are
5 occasions where it is very close and it is at
6 least possible. So I'm asking you to
7 double-check your own records to see whether
8 or not that ever occurred.
9 A I don't have the records from
10 those jobs in 1999. Not even close. I think
11 I have a couple of years from Times Square
12 and they pulled this up from the Green Street
13 job. The rest are another On-Par job.
14 Q It is not going to happen a lot