UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
90 CIV 5722
-against- (CSH)
DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED
BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND
JOINERS OF AMERICA, et.al.,
Defendants.
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Independent Investigator Deposition
March 31, 2005
9:05 o'clock a.m.
Deposition of MANFRED DORSCHUG, taken
by the Independent Investigator, Walter Mack,
Esq., pursuant to letter subpoena, at the offices
of Doar, Rieck & Mack, Esqs., 217 Broadway, 7th
Floor, New York, New York 10007-2911, before
Stewart Nissenbaum, a Shorthand Reporter and
Notary Public of the State of New York.
TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
305 Madison Avenue 142 Willis Avenue
Suite 449 P.O. BOX 347
New York, N.Y. 10165 Mineola, N.Y. 11501
(212)349-9692 (516)741-5235
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A P P E A R A N C E S :
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DOAR RIECK & MACK
4 217 Broadway - 7th Floor
New York, New York 10007-2911
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BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.
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ALSO PRESENT:
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DONALD SOBOCIENSKI
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2 MR. MACK: Let's go on the
3 record.
4 I want to go over, Mr. Dorschug,
5 a number of things we've talked about,
6 because as I've told you, I work for
7 Federal Judge Haight, Charles S. Haight,
8 Jr., who is a Federal District Court
9 judge, and I was appointed by him with
10 the consent of the United States of
11 America and the District Council of
12 Carpenters, to serve as what has been
13 named or called, the Independent
14 Investigator.
15 You have in front of you, a copy
16 of the Order appointing me, and that
17 Order sets forth what my authority is
18 and what my duties are. But to
19 summarize them, they are, in essence, to
20 run a corruption hotline, which I run
21 from this office, to take phone calls
22 from anyone who may have information
23 about misconduct or corruption or
24 inappropriate behavior.
25 I have the authority to
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2 investigate allegations that are made to
3 me about job referrals, job referral
4 rules and wrongdoing; and wrongdoing is
5 defined in the Order as inaccurate shop
6 steward report, failure to comply with
7 job referral rules, in essence, any form
8 of misconduct on the jobsite, is what it
9 boils down to.
10 I have no authority to take any
11 direct action, such as removal or
12 charging people. I can make
13 recommendations and write reports. I'm
14 not bashful about doing that. I have
15 the authority to require carpenters to
16 appear before me, and with the judge's
17 authority or approval, to require
18 anybody to appear before me and testify
19 concerning subjects that are within my
20 authority.
21 Now, as I've told you, I am
22 conducting an investigation in which I
23 expect to write a report concerning two
24 Prince jobsites; those jobsites are 455
25 Central Park West and the other is 229
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2 Chrystie Street, and I've already
3 conducted a number of depositions,
4 that's one way of obtaining sworn
5 testimony, and although you are here
6 today because of my request, and your
7 courtesy in appearing, what I've told
8 you with the greatest clarity, is that
9 should you have chosen not to appear, I
10 would have obtained a subpoena to
11 require your presence here. Sooner or
12 later, I would have the privilege of
13 discussing these topics with you in a
14 setting such as this.
15 I want to go over what I tried to
16 summarize; I think I did. The reason we
17 are doing this by transcript is, I work
18 for the Court, and the judge, and other
19 people that work for the judge. I can
20 tell from prior experience, they like to
21 read what's been said, and they much
22 prefer to have the words accurately as
23 stated by the witness and by me, than
24 somebody's description or summary of
25 what was said; because unless you get
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2 the exact words, very often meanings can
3 be lost. I'm sure you would agree with
4 me. So, that's why I have the benefit
5 of this hard-working gentleman to your
6 left, to make sure I have the words.
7 In addition to that, the judge
8 would charge me to be absolutely fair to
9 you, as to every witness, and to go
10 through all your rights as a witness
11 here. I want to go over them. I tried
12 to do that this morning, but I want to
13 do it again so the judge knows that I've
14 tried and done my best to explain to you
15 what's going on now.
16 What I've told you is, that if
17 you wish to have a lawyer present with
18 you during today or at any time you
19 appear before me, I say this to every
20 witness, makes no difference to me
21 whether you have a lawyer or not, that's
22 your call. If at any time today you
23 think that I have raised a question or
24 something had occurred in which you
25 would like to consult with a lawyer, all
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2 you have to do is tell me, and I'll
3 adjourn the matter for a short time, you
4 can get a lawyer and come back; that's
5 fine with me, I have no problem with
6 that.
7 Another thing that you have a
8 right to do, if you wish to, you could
9 say I insist on having a representative
10 of the United States and the District
11 Council present during this interview or
12 deposition. And, again, if you wish
13 that to occur, I'll be -- you can't have
14 one and not the other. You know, that's
15 been my practice and policy. But if you
16 want them both to be here during my
17 conversation, interaction with you
18 today, we can adjourn and do that.
19 Other things that are important
20 to you: If you had a lawyer, that
21 lawyer would say to you the same thing
22 I'm going to say to you right now. In a
23 few moments you'll be placed under oath,
24 you will be asked questions by me, my
25 job will be to ask clear, simple
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2 questions. And basically the most
3 important thing I say to you and I say
4 it to every witness, is, don't lie to
5 me, don't try to deceive me. I work for
6 the Court. It is the same as if you're
7 in a courtroom and sitting with the
8 judge, he's expecting you to honor your
9 oath and tell the truth, the whole
10 truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 Although I'm not a prosecutor anymore,
12 and I'm not a defense lawyer in this
13 setting, the point is, and I say this to
14 every witness, that if you lie to me and
15 I discover it, and I found in my
16 business eventually the truth comes out
17 sooner or later, that I will recommend
18 to the judge that the witness who lied
19 be prosecuted. Because I am an agent of
20 the Court, that if I believe and the
21 judge accepts my recommendation that you
22 have intentionally withheld information,
23 or intentionally tried to deceive me or
24 put me on the wrong track, that's called
25 obstruction of justice. Both perjury
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2 and obstruction of justice are serious
3 federal claims and could result, if
4 charged, tried and convicted, in prison.
5 There's nothing I've just said
6 that I don't say to every witness, and I
7 basically make a point of saying, that
8 if you do that, you can be certain I
9 will recommend that there be a criminal
10 prosecution; because the most effective
11 tool that I have had in my little bit
12 over two years of service here, is
13 making sure the witness understands the
14 consequences of saying an untruth. Some
15 individuals will face those consequences
16 in the near future.
17 Now, I also want to say this to
18 you, I'm going to ask you directly about
19 subjects that, because of your position
20 at Prince, you have knowledge of. I'm
21 not going to ask you about rumors or
22 innuendoes or guesses or conjectures; I
23 don't want you to feel anything other
24 than you should listen to the question
25 and answer it to the best of your
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2 ability as clearly as you can.
3 There are some witnesses who can
4 come, thought they could come in and say
5 I don't remember anything. I don't
6 remember whether I worked on this
7 jobsite, I don't remember anything. And
8 I'm sitting here with all kinds of
9 records. That's an obstruction of
10 justice. My job is to ask clear
11 questions; your job is to answer them
12 honestly and truthfully.
13 Now, should I ask you a question
14 that you feel the answer would tend to
15 incriminate you personally, and I'll
16 pick one, this is the example I use with
17 my teenage son: Have you ever had an
18 alcoholic drink. He's only seventeen,
19 the answer to that question could
20 incriminate him, and so he could say,
21 daddy, I don't want to answer -- this
22 doesn't happen in my household, I'm
23 using this as an example -- I refuse to
24 answer that question.
25 Should I ask you a question, I
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2 don't believe I have anything that would
3 incriminate you personally, but if I do,
4 it is what's in your mind, not what's in
5 my mind. If you feel there's a question
6 that if you answer could incriminate you
7 personally, Fred Dorschug, what I would
8 encourage you to do, one, is, you can
9 say I don't want to answer the question
10 without talking to a lawyer, because
11 some of these Fifth Amendment issues
12 raise legal questions. And so what I
13 would tell you to do, okay, let's leave
14 that subject aside and after this is
15 over, talk to a lawyer about it, and you
16 tell me whether or not you're going to
17 assert the Fifth as to that question. I
18 don't think there's a topic, in my
19 measuring your character and
20 forthrightness, I don't believe I know
21 of anything that you should take the
22 Fifth on. It is a right, I have an
23 obligation to inform you of it.
24 I will tell you this: Whenever a
25 person asserts the Fifth Amendment, I
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2 refer that assertion of the Fifth
3 Amendment for a prosecutor for their
4 evaluation. So that doesn't mean
5 there's going to be a charge or there's
6 a criminal case, but it is something
7 that I believe, okay, you feel you have
8 a right to assert the Fifth, I'm going
9 to pass that fact on to a prosecutor,
10 let them decide whether that's
11 significant or not.
12 I think I've told you that I am
13 going to be writing a report. You will
14 be among a number of people, some of
15 whom have already testified where you
16 are, sitting where you are; others who
17 will be called shortly after your time
18 with me; maybe in the next week or two.
19 I have told you that the District
20 Council has requested that I be
21 terminated as Independent Investigator.
22 Their position is, and you will see when
23 you read the Order, that my appointment
24 is for a minimum of two years. They,
25 the District Council, have taken the
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2 view that the two years is up, we can
3 terminate Mack.
4 Mack has written to the judge,
5 saying, Judge, I think only you have the
6 authority to terminate me, the
7 Government has requested my time to be
8 extended, the District Council has
9 opposed it. That is an issue for the
10 judge. I have no ability to predict
11 what the judge is going to do, it is up
12 to the Court. But as long as I serve in
13 this position, I'm going to continue to
14 do my job until the judge tells me to
15 stop.
16 I tell that to you, because I
17 want to make sure that you understand,
18 you can say: I don't know whether Mack
19 is going to be around anymore, I'm not
20 going to answer questions. I would
21 discourage you from taking that view;
22 because even if I'm not around, there
23 will be someone like me around, who
24 will, in my view, continue this
25 investigation, because of the serious
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2 questions that have been raised. I feel
3 it is fair to you to tell you about that
4 ongoing legal matter, and it is
5 something that only the judge will
6 resolve, in my view, and how he is going
7 to resolve it, he just wrote recently
8 that he hasn't made up his mind yet. I
9 tell you that for your own information.
10 I think I've covered all the
11 matters that the judge would ask me to
12 do, to be fair to you. But last, and
13 most importantly, is there anything on
14 your mind, any questions you would like
15 to ask me, anything that is a concern,
16 before we get to work on the topics of
17 interest to me?
18 MR. DORSCHUG: Just one thing.
19 MR. MACK: Let's go off the
20 record briefly.
21 (Discussion off the record.)
22 MR. MACK: On the record.
23 Mr. Dorschug has pointed out to
24 me that this is a payroll day, and it is
25 very important to him, as it is to me,
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2 that Prince workers have the benefit of
3 being paid for their hard work; and he
4 has asked that he be able to depart by
5 12:30. I've assured him he will be
6 given the right to do so, and I will
7 endeavor to complete my work before
8 then; but if not, we'll continue another
9 day. I'm not going to jeopardize Prince
10 workers being paid.
11 Is that agreeable to you, Mr.
12 Dorschug?
13 MR. DORSCHUG: Yes, that's kind
14 of you. Thank you.
15 MR. MACK: Let me say a couple of
16 things. If at any time my questions are
17 unclear, you don't strike me as a
18 bashful person, just say I don't
19 understand what you're asking me. This
20 is meant to be a fact-gathering process,
21 and the judge would expect, he will read
22 this transcript, if not him, his clerks,
23 and they will want to understand, and my
24 questions are designed to ensure that
25 the Court understands your answers, and
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2 it is important that you understand my
3 questions; and if you don't, speak out.
4 Anytime you want to take a break,
5 get a glass of water, or visit the
6 facilities, tell me.
7 Mr. Nissenbaum, who is the
8 hardest-working person in the room,
9 needs a break approximately every so
10 often, he gives me a special signal and
11 I know his hands are weakening, and we
12 take a five- or ten-minute break to
13 permit him to recover from the hard
14 labor he is undergoing at the moment.
15 Other than that, I think I'm
16 prepared to proceed. Anything else that
17 you would like to raise, sir?
18 MR. DORSCHUG: No, that's fine.
19 I'm okay.
20 MR. MACK: Okay. Chief
21 Sobocienski, anything you would like to
22 say?
23 I should say this to you. Since
24 the Chief, the handsome gentleman to my
25 left here, is often more factually
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2 knowledgeable about jobsites, because he
3 has been frequently my representative on
4 the jobsites, in fact, as we mentioned
5 before, he actually visited the
6 jobsites, he may be asking questions
7 from time to time in order to overcome
8 my incompetence or lack of ability to
9 ask questions, so it is often -- he
10 knows things that I don't; and we will
11 try basically, you know, to make sure
12 that the record is as complete as I need
13 it to be. He may ask a question from
14 time to time, and that's because he has
15 generally more factual knowledge, since
16 he's frequently the person that visited
17 the jobsite or he has had conversations
18 with carpenters or others about the
19 jobsites that I haven't.
20 We both have people that we talk
21 to, issues that have come up. So I just
22 want you to know that may happen from
23 time to time.
24 Okay. That being said, let me
25 ask that Mr. Dorschug be placed under
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2 oath.
3 M A N F R E D D O R S C H U G , the
4 witness herein, being first duly sworn by
5 Stewart Nissenbaum, a Notary Public of the
6 State of New York, was examined and testified
7 as follows:
8 EXAMINATION BY
9 MR. MACK:
10 Q Could you please state and spell,
11 for the record, your name?
12 A My first name is Manfred,
13 M-a-n-f-r-e-d. Last name Dorschug,
14 D-o-r-s-c-h-u-g.
15 Q How would you like to be called
16 today, Mr. Dorschug, would that be --
17 A You can call me Freddie, Mr.
18 Dorschug; doesn't matter to me.
19 Q I want to make sure that if I --
20 although I've gone through a lot of
21 formalities, this is designed to be a
22 relatively informal process, outside the
23 courtroom, designed to gather information for
24 my report. I want you to feel comfortable
25 and at ease in speaking your mind. It is not
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2 like an EBT, it is not like sitting in front
3 of a jury or judge; it is a process designed
4 to ensure, one, that I have an accurate
5 record, two, you give it attention; but most
6 important that I get all the facts.
7 I would rather have you say to
8 me, well, what about this, or this is another
9 factor, so I don't miss the significance of
10 what you're telling me. I want you to be
11 comfortable and speak freely. And I'm going
12 to ask you, and this is something I ask every
13 witness who appears: Are there things, are
14 there suggestions that you would have, for
15 our operation here, or for the judge in
16 affecting the construction industry in a
17 positive way, leveling the playing field in a
18 better way? That's simply my practice, so
19 that any witness appearing before me has had
20 an opportunity the speak through me to the
21 judge about what need to be done. I will ask
22 that question at some time. It is entirely
23 up to you whether you want to answer it or
24 how you answer it. But it is designed to
25 ensure that the people most familiar with the
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2 industry, with the best ideas and experience,
3 can never say to me or to the judge that they
4 weren't given an opportunity to make
5 suggestions for our service.
6 That's basically something you
7 can keep in mind. It is up to you whether
8 you want to answer it or not, when the time
9 comes. But that question is coming near the
10 end.
11 A Okay.
12 Q Could you describe for me, what
13 is your position at Prince Carpentry?
14 A My position at Prince Carpentry
15 is field superintendent. I'm in charge of
16 all construction projects that we are
17 running.
18 Q Are you a member of any union?
19 A I'm a retired member of the
20 carpenters union.
21 Q How many years have you been
22 associated with Prince Carpentry?
23 A I'm employed by Prince Carpentry
24 since September, 1962.
25 Q How long have you been Prince's
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2 field superintendent?
3 A Since March of 1994.
4 Q Are there any other
5 superintendents employed by Prince?
6 A No.
7 Q Let me ask this: Who do you
8 report to?
9 A I'm reporting to my boss, which
10 is Kenneth Voss, V-o-s-s.
11 Q Do you report to anyone else?
12 A We have project managers in our
13 office, where we are discussing the jobs,
14 frequently.
15 Q Are the project managers, are
16 they employees of Prince?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And how many project managers are
19 there at Prince Carpentry, let's say in the
20 last two years?
21 A There's two.
22 Q Can you identify those for me?
23 A Yes. One of them is John
24 Jasionoski, J-a-s-i-o-n-o-s-k-i.
25 Q Who is the other?
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2 A John P-u-n-i-s.
3 Q How are jobs divided between
4 those two gentlemen?
5 A Most of the jobs are done by Mr.
6 Jasionoski; say two-thirds. And one-third,
7 one-third for Mr. Punis.
8 Q Who makes the assignment of which
9 project manager will work on what project?
10 Is that Mr. Voss? Does he do that? How is it
11 determined?
12 A Yeah, that would be -- yeah, that
13 would be determined by Mr. Voss. And it
14 hinges on who is busy, if one is not that
15 busy, so he would be -- let's say you get a
16 new job, so he would be assigned the new job
17 to be project manager.
18 Q For the benefit of not only me,
19 but the judge, could you describe, and again
20 I think -- since I'm going to focus on really
21 two jobs specifically, I would like you
22 perhaps to describe your duties as field
23 superintendent, let's say for the period,
24 let's say for the last three years. In other
25 words, what actual duties does the field
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2 superintendent, yourself, have, with respect
3 to a jobsite?
4 A Okay. Let's say a job is
5 beginning, the first stage, so I would go to
6 the jobsite, introduce myself to the
7 superintendent of the general contractor, and
8 we would talk about what's necessary, and
9 when is manpower needed. And then I would
10 supply the manpower to the jobsite at any
11 given time, whatever they tell me.
12 Q When you say supply the manpower
13 to the site, can you explain to me what that
14 means, what do you actually do?
15 A Okay. The minute we get a new
16 job, my first --
17 Q Function?
18 A My first obligation is, I call up
19 the respective union, either 157 or 608, I
20 would call: Listen, I have a job there and
21 there. They ask me, are you going to be
22 ready in two weeks or three weeks. I don't
23 know, I'll let you know.
24 When the time comes, I would say
25 we would be on the jobsite, and I'm having a
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2 foreman over there, one guy over there, you
3 do what you have to do. They would ask me,
4 is it on and off, or is it steady.
5 It depends; sometimes it's on and
6 off, sometimes one day in the beginning on
7 the jobsite with one person, or it is steady
8 work from the beginning. It varies.
9 Q Then what happens?
10 A When the time comes, that I need
11 a presence on the job, I would assign a
12 foreman.
13 Q How many Prince foremen are
14 there? I know of two, but how many are
15 there?
16 A There's approximately twenty.
17 Q You make the assignment of what
18 foreman at what time is the right foreman for
19 that job?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q Then what happens?
22 A Then we would go on the jobsite
23 and call into the Local and say, well, I'm
24 here now. I would get the shop steward
25 assigned.
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2 Q How would you go about -- I'm a
3 detail person, and one of my responsibilities
4 is job referrals, and I know the judge is
5 interested in that. How do you obtain a shop
6 steward for the jobsite; how does that
7 happen?
8 A Simple. Go on the phone and say
9 the job is ready.
10 Q Who do you call?
11 A There's basically two Locals, two
12 carpenter Locals in the City.
13 Q 157 and 608?
14 A Yes. If it's 608 jurisdiction, I
15 would call, most of the time I call Joe
16 Firth.
17 Q Let's have a typical conversation
18 with Joe Firth. How would it go?
19 A Well, Joe, like I told you, I'm
20 ready to start a job.
21 Q Send me a steward?
22 A I going to have a carpenter there
23 and the job -- let's say the job is ready to
24 go now. Okay, I'll send you somebody.
25 Q Would it be the same with 157?
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2 A Not necessarily, because 157,
3 mostly they had rather me call the
4 out-of-work list.
5 Q Right.
6 A And request a shop steward.
7 Typically; not all the time.
8 Q So why is it different between
9 608 and 157?
10 A I guess there are preferences. I
11 think that's the way they like it.
12 Q "They" being 608?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Why do you say that?
15 A Or 157.
16 Q Has anyone from 608 said to you:
17 Gee, Freddie, or, gee, Mr. Dorschug, I would
18 like you to call me about the need for a shop
19 steward, rather than the out-of-work list?
20 A 608?
21 Q Yes.
22 A No, actually not, no.
23 Q I'm trying to find out how the
24 practice evolved to be so different. If I
25 understand what you told me -- let me make
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2 sure I got it right. Most of the time at
3 157, you are asked by 157 to call the
4 out-of-work list for the assignment of a shop
5 steward; correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q At 608, it is different, in that
8 608 asks you to call them regarding the
9 assignment of a shop steward; correct?
10 A Yeah, that's correct.
11 Q So how was that difference in
12 approach communicated to you by 608?
13 A When I call, there's also times
14 when I say, well, whoever I talk to --
15 Q Start again. I think I heard you
16 to say, and you correct me, that when you
17 talk to Joe Firth, you ask him do you want me
18 to call the out-of-work list, or are you
19 going to call the out-of-work list; is that
20 what you said?
21 A That happens, but not all the
22 time.
23 Q You tell me.
24 A On occasions, I would ask Joe you
25 want me to call, or you are going to call
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2 yourself? Most of the time, he says, no,
3 I'll take care of it, which is fine with me,
4 doesn't matter to me.
5 Q Now, when you call -- let me ask
6 it this way: Do you remember a situation
7 where, for a 157 job, you dealt directly with
8 a business agent rather than the out-of-work
9 list for the appointment of a shop steward?
10 Do you understand the question?
11 A Could you repeat it?
12 Q Yes. What I'm getting at is, I
13 think when you answered the question about
14 157, you said most of the time they want me
15 to call the out-of-work list directly?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q When you say most of the time, I
18 know I draw from that there must have been
19 times when you didn't call the out-of-work
20 list and you talked to a business agent or
21 someone at 157. That's what I'm asking you
22 about now.
23 A That's correct.
24 Q Who is the business agent at 157
25 who you would talk to directly, if you do
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2 talk to the business agent?
3 A Lately, it was mostly Bill
4 Hanley; then there was a time where Fred
5 Kennedy answered the phone, doesn't matter to
6 me, or it was George D'Alessio. He was out
7 for a while, so he is back in business now.
8 Most of the time, I spoke to George
9 D'Alessio, especially since he was assigned
10 the job now, the job in question at Chrystie.
11 Q George D'Alessio is the business
12 agent?
13 A He was assigned to that jobsite
14 after he came back.
15 Q I'm going to ask you about that
16 jobsite in particular in a few moments.
17 Before we get there, I want to understand the
18 processes that you used for shop stewards,
19 and then we are going to go for carpenters.
20 But can you think of a jobsite in
21 157's jurisdiction in which the shop steward
22 was appointed after your conversation with a
23 business agent? Do you understand that
24 question?
25 I'm asking, you've told me most
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2 of the time they want you to call the
3 out-of-work list?
4 A Correct.
5 Q What I'm saying is, in the other
6 times when you don't call the out-of-work
7 list, can you remember a particular jobsite
8 in which you dealt directly with 157 for
9 appointment of the steward?
10 A Meaning --
11 Q Whether George or Fred or Bill.
12 If my question is unclear, I can rephrase it.
13 A I have to get it straight.
14 Q You told me most of the time, 157
15 wants you to call the out-of-work list
16 directly for the assignment of the shop
17 steward; correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q So I'm excluding that whole
20 category. I'm saying, the other times, when
21 you're not calling, can you identify a
22 jobsite in which you got the shop steward
23 directly through 157?
24 A Oh, I see. I got that, yeah.
25 Let me think for a minute.
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2 Q Take your time.
3 (Pause.)
4 A One jobsite was the Milan.
5 Q Tell me what that is?
6 A 55th and Second Avenue. I'm
7 sorry. First -- Second Avenue, going
8 Downtown, right.
9 Q Right. And the Milan, is that
10 M-i-l-a-n, like the town in Italy?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Is that a hotel?
13 A No, that's a condominium
14 building.
15 Q When was, for instance, on that
16 jobsite, what was the approximate time
17 period?
18 A At least a year and a half ago;
19 and it is winding down now, so it is almost
20 finished.
21 Q How was the shop steward obtained
22 on that jobsite?
23 A I believe I called and I asked
24 for a shop steward, and somebody showed up.
25 Q Do you know who you talked to?
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2 A Probably it was Bill Hanley.
3 Q Are there any other jobsites that
4 you can think of, in which you're in 157,
5 that the shop steward came directly, at least
6 your call was directly to the business agent?
7 A The other jobsite I have is on
8 92nd, called the James, 92nd Street and First
9 Avenue. I did not -- I believe I did not go
10 to the out-of-work list. If I'm wrong --
11 Q Believe me, we are going to check
12 many of these jobsites.
13 A We have all the records in the
14 office. Anything that's requested is in my
15 office; but I don't believe that I called,
16 myself.
17 Q If you didn't call for a shop
18 steward, who did, do you know who did, for
19 the 92nd Street, the James?
20 A One of the business agents. Most
21 likely it was Bill Hanley.
22 Q Did you talk to Bill Hanley about
23 that jobsite for appointment of a shop
24 steward?
25 A When I called, yes.
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2 Q So let me say this: And then we
3 are going to take just about a five-minute
4 break here for Stu, because this stuff is
5 hard to get down exactly right.
6 There may be nothing wrong, and I
7 don't want to imply, that the out-of-work
8 list, the business agent may call the
9 out-of-work list or you may call the
10 out-of-work list; it is really a question as
11 to how the steward gets to the job. That's
12 my job, I can do that. I have records of the
13 District Council that I can go to. But I
14 want to give you a piece of paper today, so
15 that if there are things that come up that
16 you think your own records at Prince would
17 help you remember or would resolve, you make
18 a note to yourself so that you can look for
19 those record and send them to me; okay? I'm
20 going to try to avoid your having to come
21 back here.
22 A Right.
23 Q One way to do that is, if there
24 are particular records that would help me
25 understand what the facts are, I'm going to
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2 ask you, or people working with you, to put
3 those record together and mail them to me, so
4 you don't have to come back to explain them
5 to me.
6 A Okay.
7 Q Let me give you a piece of paper
8 and a felt tip. I have to make a phone call.
9 Let's take a five-minute break, and we'll
10 resume and keep going and get this done so
11 you're out of here by 12:30.
12 A Which period of time do you want
13 me to go back to?
14 Q It certainly would be no more
15 than five years, and it would probably be
16 three years. The jobs I'm interested in that
17 I know about, but there may be other job that
18 will come out, are within the last two years.
19 I think three years is probably safe. But
20 there may be questions that come up that go
21 beyond that. We won't know until we get to
22 them, until the morning progresses
23 (Short recess taken.)
24 MR. MACK: Let's go back on the
25 record.
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2 Q So, what you've just handed me,
3 Mr. Dorschug, is what here, this -- these are
4 157 jobsites?
5 A Most recent, yeah.
6 Q Host recent jobsites for 157?
7 A Yes.
8 MR. MACK: I'm going to mark that
9 as FD-1, so we keep track.
10 (List, 157 jobsites, marked
11 Exhibit FD-1.)
12 Q These are jobsites that are
13 currently functioning, or ones that would
14 have occurred in the last three years?
15 A Occurred in the last three years,
16 or even further back.
17 Q Terrific. Now, to the question I
18 asked, which of those jobsites were called
19 in, to your knowledge, by the business agent?
20 Which ones would that be? You can tell me
21 which ones you called or had called in
22 directly to the out-of-work list. Either
23 way. You can mark them, if you want.
24 Why don't you mark the ones that
25 were called in by the business agent from
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2 157, to the best of your knowledge? Just put
3 like an X or a check, or something like that.
4 A By the BA?
5 Q By the BA.
6 A It goes back a while.
7 Q Okay, take your time.
8 A I am.
9 (Pause.)
10 A I have to put a question mark
11 some places.
12 Q That's fine.
13 A I put a question mark.
14 Q Fine; no problem, just do the
15 best you can.
16 A Yes.
17 Q All set?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Now, in the next break, I may ask
20 you about the 608 jobsites to list for me,
21 we'll do that in the next break; but let's
22 keep going.
23 Let's take a situation where you
24 call the out-of-work list, specifically,
25 yourself. Let's say that's primarily --
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2 you're shaking your head. Does that mean you
3 don't call, yourself, somebody else does it
4 for you?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q Who does it for you?
7 A What I typically would do, all
8 the time I call my office, and we have a
9 clerk that takes in all the orders, takes in
10 the order for whatever is needed in the
11 field. He also takes care of requests being
12 sent to the out-of-work list, the Council.
13 So I would specifically say which jobsite.
14 Q To this clerk?
15 A Which jobsite I request a shop
16 steward, modification, such and such.
17 Q Let me follow that up. What is
18 the name of the clerk who has this
19 responsibility, or the clerks who had this
20 responsibility over the last three years?
21 A Jimmy Bogert.
22 Q Could you spell the last name for
23 me?
24 A B-o-g-e-r-t.
25 Q And his duties include
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2 interacting with the District Council
3 out-of-work list?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Does he have any other duties?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q What else does he do?
8 A Typically, a foreman would call
9 in an order, 50 cases of screws, I need this
10 and this material, so he would call it in to
11 the clerk, the clerk will place the order,
12 and the material would arrive on the jobsite
13 the following day or two days later.
14 Q Got it. Correct me if I have
15 this -- tell me whether I have it right. In
16 a situation where you want Jimmy to make a
17 request for a shop steward at a particular
18 jobsite, you tell Jimmy, this is you, Fred
19 Dorschug, tell Jimmy the site, qualifications
20 for the shop steward?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Do you also tell Jimmy the day
23 that the steward should appear?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Do you have a practice of giving
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2 a number of hours' notice or, in other words,
3 how many days do you generally ask for a
4 steward before you actually need the steward?
5 A Basically a day before I need
6 him. A day before.
7 Q Have you ever yourself,
8 personally, let's say in the last three
9 years, whether it is 608 or 157, asked or
10 requested an immediate dispatch for a shop
11 steward? Do you understand what I mean when
12 I say immediate dispatch, I need him today,
13 right away, no delay of any kind?
14 A I don't think we do that, because
15 it goes on -- we have a sheet in the office,
16 and the name gets filled in, and it says the
17 date on it, and usually it is the following
18 day, for tomorrow. It will not be two weeks
19 ahead of time.
20 Q But it won't be like: I need him
21 in an hour or a half-hour?
22 A No, no, no.
23 Q Now, do you determine when you
24 talk to Jimmy about making the request to the
25 out-of-work list, what are the skills or
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2 classifications, qualifications of the
3 steward you want on the jobsite?
4 A Yes, I do that most of the time.
5 Q How do you determine what skills
6 you wish to have that steward to have?
7 A Basically, when you start out on
8 a job, you need somebody that's qualified to
9 do protection work, so I would ask for
10 protection work, ask for a few other things,
11 namely, a qualified steward.
12 Q In other words, a UBC steward?
13 A Yes.
14 Q What about other skills you ask
15 for?
16 A They vary; let's say laser, laser
17 license, OSHA courses. Those are typically
18 the things I would put on there.
19 Q Have you ever been requested or
20 asked by a business agent to ask for a
21 specific skill with respect to a shop steward
22 assignment?
23 A Yes, I have been asked.
24 Q Could you tell me, give me some
25 examples?
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2 A You would get a call, basically,
3 if the job is not ready and I say maybe in
4 two weeks I would get a call, I have a
5 steward ready. It would happen once in
6 awhile.
7 Q Give me an example. I have a
8 steward ready. What else?
9 A Qualifications are so-and-so,
10 what do I need, what kind of qualifications;
11 or I would be told, well, ask for certain
12 qualifications.
13 Q I would like to talk about a
14 specific example of that, if we could. Would
15 you pick an example in your mind, and let's
16 talk about what happened.
17 A The specific jobsite where it
18 happened?
19 Q Yes.
20 A 89th Street and First Avenue.
21 Q It is a 157 job. You have it
22 down here. It looks like requested by you;
23 is that right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q That means you went to the
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2 out-of-work list?
3 A Again, I called in, I called my
4 office, give the jobsite, need a shop steward
5 tomorrow, qualified shop steward,
6 qualifications so-and-so.
7 Q Tell me about this 89th Street
8 and First Avenue, your interaction in terms
9 of skills for that job.
10 Do you understand the question?
11 In other words, did somebody ask you or tell
12 you, I have a shop steward ready, what do you
13 need; and then you put on specific skills?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Tell me what happened on that
16 job.
17 A Well, like I said, in that
18 instance, I must have been told the shop
19 steward qualifications are such and such, and
20 such and such. Now, that's what I remember.
21 I also know, we have it in the record in the
22 office.
23 Q I'm going to ask you to get it.
24 A Everything is on paper. All our
25 requests, we just keep it on file.
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2 Q I want you to make a list for me
3 of what you are going to go back and get,
4 paper, for me. This 89th Street and First
5 Avenue is certainly one.
6 A Okay.
7 Q What is your recollection as you
8 sit here today, who called you to say I have
9 a shop steward ready and these are the skills
10 that I want, or would you -- suggested the
11 skills be used, who called you?
12 A I believe that was George
13 D'Alessio.
14 Q Do you remember what the skills
15 were that he encouraged you to ask for?
16 A No, I don't. I just don't
17 recall.
18 Q But you do recall it was George
19 who made that request of you?
20 A Yes, yes.
21 Q Can you recall any other examples
22 of this type of behavior, besides 89th Street
23 and first?
24 A I think it was Liberty Street;
25 but I'm not really sure. I think it was.
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2 Q That's 10 Liberty Street?
3 A 10 Liberty Street.
4 Q What is your recollection of what
5 happened on that job? Who talked to you, and
6 what did they ask you to do?
7 A It was George D'Alessio; that was
8 his job.
9 Q What is your recollection of what
10 he said to you?
11 A Basically the same as before. I
12 have a steward ready, let me know the
13 qualifications.
14 Q I'm writing down these sites. Is
15 there any other on 157 that you can remember,
16 and when that happened?
17 A Let me take a look.
18 Q Take a look at your list. That's
19 FD-1. You take a look at it.
20 A No, I don't think so.
21 Q Let me ask you the same -- did
22 that ever happen on a 608 job, in which you
23 were asked to -- for particular skills, or
24 was the matter -- maybe it was 608. Let me
25 ask this question. Let me go back. Did that
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2 ever happen on a 608 job, in which you were
3 asked to request specific skills?
4 A I don't think so. No, I don't
5 think so, no.
6 Q When you talked to a 608 business
7 agent, I think you've told me that most of
8 the time it was either Joe Firth or a
9 business agent, they are the ones who deal
10 with the out-of-work list, put the request
11 in?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q When you had that conversation
14 with Joe or the business agent at 608, do you
15 tell them what skills you want that steward
16 to have, or do you leave it to them?
17 A Most of the time, I think all the
18 time, I leave it to them; I really do.
19 Q All right. In the next break,
20 I'm going to ask you to write down all the
21 608 jobs, and I'm going to ask you then
22 whether at any of those jobs, you made a
23 specific request, let's say request, that the
24 steward have particular skills or not. All
25 right?
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2 But the way I'm understanding,
3 and you correct me if I'm wrong, what you're
4 telling me is that you leave it up to the 608
5 business agent what skills are appropriate;
6 is that correct?
7 A That's correct.
8 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Do you have a
9 conversation with the business agent
10 whereby he asks you questions about the
11 nature of the job, and what types of
12 work will be done on the job, so that he
13 can make a determination as to what
14 skills he thinks are necessary? Do you
15 have a back-and-forth type dialogue?
16 THE WITNESS: Not necessarily.
17 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: All you're
18 providing to the business agent is the
19 location of the job?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: And that you
22 want a steward?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: On this date?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes. Excuse me.
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2 Like I said, when I do get a job, when
3 Prince Carpentry is awarded the jobsite,
4 first thing I do, I call the Local. In
5 turn, they say: Let me know when it is
6 ready. Then I would call.
7 Q What Don is asking you, and it is
8 important to us to understand, is, do you,
9 when you call them, two things: Have you
10 ever called 608 and asked that the shop
11 steward be immediately dispatched, like,
12 right away, you know, because I've understood
13 your answers to be it is your practice at
14 Price to basically ask for a steward to come
15 the next day, right?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q Do you recall any instance in
18 which you specifically asked 608 that the
19 steward come immediately, that day?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Next question: When you call
22 608, and you want a steward the next day or a
23 couple of days, whenever it is, do you
24 specify in your conversation with 608, what
25 skills that steward should have, or do you
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2 leave it entirely up to them?
3 A I may ask, make sure you send me
4 the right guy, somebody that works, that
5 wants to work.
6 Q Right.
7 A And that would be, most of the
8 time, the conversation.
9 Q It's not like: I want him to
10 have fire stop, I want him to have these
11 skills, foreman/layout; you are not having a
12 skill discussion with the 608 business agent,
13 or are you?
14 A Basically not.
15 Q Okay. Do you recall any instance
16 with a 608 steward, in which you had a
17 conversation with the business agent in which
18 skills were discussed for the shop steward?
19 A Yeah, there was times, yeah.
20 Q Do you recall when?
21 A A long time ago.
22 Q Is that more than three years, or
23 less?
24 A Yes.
25 Q More than three?
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2 A Yes.
3 Q Do you recall what particular job
4 in which you did have a conversation about
5 skills?
6 A I recall one job, and that must
7 be ten years ago.
8 Q Ten years ago?
9 A Yeah.
10 Q Anything more recent than that?
11 A No, I don't think so.
12 Q All right. Now, I know how
13 important it is to Prince, because I talked
14 to Phil about this subject, that the shop
15 stewards work as well as do their union
16 duties.
17 A Yes.
18 Q All right. And I have
19 information, but it is important to me, that
20 you've had stewards that either don't spend
21 their time on the job, or don't work, period.
22 That's just what I've heard from others, not
23 only Phil, okay, others.
24 So, I want to ask you, and I'm
25 going to jump around a little bit. Was -- do
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2 you have an opinion as to the service as shop
3 steward of John Gaffney at 455?
4 A I do have an opinion, yeah.
5 Q I would like to hear it.
6 A He is a bum. He doesn't want to
7 work.
8 Q And did you yourself have
9 personal knowledge or interaction on that
10 jobsite with Mr. Gaffney?
11 A I did, yes.
12 Q Can you tell me about it, please?
13 A We started out in the beginning
14 when he was assigned the job. He was told,
15 you have to work; and he did work. Over
16 time, it got less and less and less, and it
17 seemed like he took the position that, you
18 know, I'm here, and, like, I'm doing you a
19 favor. I told him, you're not doing me no
20 favor, I don't owe anybody anything; you just
21 have to work.
22 Q Right.
23 A Didn't help much.
24 Q Now, I have information, and I'm
25 trying to find out whether it is true or not,
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2 that Mr. Gaffney was not on the jobsite a
3 full day, routinely. Do you understand the
4 question?
5 A Yes, I do understand the
6 question.
7 Q Is that true or false?
8 A No, that's true.
9 Q He was off the job frequently?
10 A He was off the job frequently,
11 yes. The reason I know is, my instruction to
12 my foreman is, I want to know, I want you to
13 call in the time the way you see it. The man
14 is here, put him in the book, if he's not
15 here, he doesn't get paid. Let me know, I'll
16 be the judge he gets paid or not. The
17 foreman's duty is to call it as he sees it.
18 Q Right.
19 A I want to know.
20 Q What did you learn from your
21 foreman on 455 Central Park West about the
22 shop steward, Mr. Gaffney?
23 A What I learned from the foreman?
24 It deteriorated, his work habit, over time.
25 In other words, the more workers got to the
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2 job, the less work he did.
3 Q Give me an example. He left the
4 job a half-hour early, or wouldn't show up?
5 Give me the details, if you would.
6 A All right. You have to
7 understand that I -- basically, I go twice a
8 week on the jobsite; I have fourteen, fifteen
9 sites to visit. And typically I spend like
10 an hour on the job. From the top, I walk
11 down, I do that basically twice a week. On
12 the jobsite in a given week, I'll be there
13 two, three hours, tops. The rest I have to
14 rely on my foremen. I must say my foremen
15 are all trustworthy, they do what you tell
16 them.
17 Q Would you tell me that Phil is a
18 person that, in your experience, is
19 trustworthy and a good foreman?
20 A Yes, I would say that.
21 Q Would it be your opinion that I
22 should trust the information that Phil gives
23 me about a jobsite?
24 A Absolutely.
25 Q I just want to make sure that you
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2 feel he's a trustworthy person.
3 A Absolutely.
4 Q Tell me what you found out about
5 Mr. Gaffney's attendance at your jobsite at
6 455 Central Park West.
7 A Like I said, when the job grew
8 and there was more need for men to be there
9 on the job, I believe he had about fifty,
10 sixty men on the jobsite at one time, Mr.
11 Gaffney just chose not to come in.
12 Q Come in at all?
13 A Sometimes he did not come in at
14 all. That's what I got from Phil.
15 Q Were there times when you were on
16 the jobsite personally, because you told me
17 you check your jobsites twice a week;
18 right --
19 A Yes.
20 Q -- in which you were on the
21 jobsite during working hours, and the shop
22 steward, Mr. Gaffney, was not present?
23 A That could mean two things. I
24 could miss him as I walked through, but I
25 also bumped into him on occasions, so it is
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2 not that -- if I would specifically look for
3 a person, I would seek him out and then I
4 would know for a fact. Basically I'm not
5 looking for attendance, I leave it up to the
6 foreman.
7 Q If I'm correct, you had a foreman
8 telling you that the shop steward was not in
9 attendance on a regular basis?
10 A Yes, he told me.
11 Q Did you ever make inquiries of
12 your own to determine whether or not Mr.
13 Gaffney was complying with his obligations or
14 whether Phil was providing you accurate
15 information?
16 Another way to ask the question:
17 Did you ever look for the shop steward, Mr.
18 Gaffney, on that jobsite?
19 A I looked occasionally, yes.
20 Q Did you find him when you looked
21 for him?
22 A Found him sometimes; and
23 sometimes I didn't find him.
24 Q When you didn't find him, what
25 did you do about it, if anything?
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2 A What did I do about it? Paid the
3 bum.
4 Q That's what I want to ask about.
5 I'm not sitting in judgment here, I'm
6 gathering facts. But the facts that I've
7 gathered so far, and you have not told me
8 anything inconsistent with them, is that your
9 foreman and other carpenters have provided
10 information that a shop steward was not
11 attending during the hours he was supposed to
12 be there, and yet he was getting paid for
13 full attendance.
14 A That's correct.
15 Q I'm asking you why.
16 A Why? That has a lot to do
17 with -- how should I put it? I cannot afford
18 to make enemies with the business agent over
19 a little matter of a shop steward that
20 doesn't want to work.
21 Q Why not? Explain it to me and
22 to the judge, recognizing the judge and I are
23 not carpenters, we need to understand what
24 the facts are.
25 A I understand.
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2 Q And the realities are.
3 A Okay. If the shop steward is a
4 friend of the business agent or somebody
5 else, I don't want to step on the business
6 agent's toes, so to speak I would have a
7 conversation with him: Listen, talk to the
8 man, he's not there, he misses time; do
9 something about it.
10 Or sometimes it would happen, you
11 know, we would talk, and then it would go
12 away. I have been told, well, in that
13 particular case, I'll handle it, and it was
14 good for a while, he took care of his duties,
15 bring the shop steward's report to the Local,
16 and that's the end of it.
17 Q Are we talking still about 455,
18 or things in general now?
19 A I thought we were talking about
20 455 and Mr. Gaffney.
21 Q That's what we are talking about.
22 Let me get the facts here. I need to hear
23 from you, based upon either your knowledge,
24 or the information provided to you by your
25 foremen, when Mr. Gaffney stopped attending
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2 regularly; the details.
3 Did it mean that he never showed
4 up for a day, or he will show up for a short
5 period of time; was it both, or neither?
6 A Well, that would be really --
7 Phil could answer that more exactly than me,
8 as I said; but both. I think he missed
9 complete days, and he also missed partial
10 days, be may be late.
11 Q I also have information that
12 Mr. Gaffney would play cards, would play
13 poker on the jobsite even when he was there.
14 A That's correct.
15 Q Is that correct?
16 A That's correct. I can say it is
17 correct, because I walked in on it.
18 Q Tell me about that situation.
19 A Well, I was walking the jobsite
20 and I go from floor to floor. And I happened
21 to open up a door, okay, so who was sitting
22 in the room was Mr. Gaffney and a couple of
23 other characters, playing card.
24 Q Was this their lunch hour?
25 A It was not the lunch hour, no.
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2 It was probably 11:00 o'clock or so, it was
3 before.
4 Q Who were the other characters;
5 were they carpenters or other trades, or
6 what?
7 A No, I think they were engineers
8 or operators, either one.
9 Q When you saw them there, did you
10 say anything to them?
11 A Well, I said something.
12 Q What did you say, as best you can
13 remember?
14 A I really don't remember.
15 Q What was the gist of what you
16 said?
17 A I don't want to make up things.
18 I said something, but exactly what I said, I
19 really don't know.
20 Q I mean, it wasn't: Hey, can I
21 get in on the game. I'm sure you didn't say
22 that?
23 A No. No. I must have made light
24 of it somehow.
25 Q Did you ever complain to anyone,
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2 including Mr. Gaffney, about playing cards
3 during the workday?
4 A Well, after that incident, I
5 called Joe Firth; I'm sure it was after that
6 incident, I called Joe.
7 Q What was your conversation with
8 Joe Firth about?
9 A I think I told him the men was
10 playing cards, and he has to do something
11 about it, get him off the job, get me
12 somebody else, talk to him, I need help. I
13 think at that time, the jobs -- the manpower
14 was going down on the job.
15 Q Did you talk to any business
16 agent at 608 before the poker incident, about
17 the fact that Mr. Gaffney was not putting in
18 a full workday on a regular basis?
19 A No, I don't think so.
20 Q You only talked to a business
21 agent one time about Mr. Gaffney?
22 A No, I talked to him twice, when
23 things got out of hand.
24 Q Was this poker game situation the
25 first time you talked to Joe, or the second
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2 time you talked to Joe?
3 A I think it was the first time.
4 Q What brought about the second
5 time?
6 A The second time, I think there
7 was an incident about smashing a light bulb.
8 Q Tell me about it, please.
9 A From what I got from Phil, and
10 actually we obtained a statement from the
11 superintendent of the jobsite, from Bovis,
12 that it really happened that the foreman told
13 Mr. Gaffney to do some work, and it was on
14 overtime, I believe it was, and Mr. Gaffney
15 took the hammer out and smashed the light
16 bulb, and said it is too dark, I can't work
17 here. That's what I got. Basically, we did
18 get a letter of that fact from -- actually
19 from two superintendents from Bovis, stating
20 that.
21 Q Would you add that to your list
22 of things to provide to me? The requests for
23 those two jobsites at 157. I want to make
24 sure that the letters concerning the light
25 bulb incident or anything concerning the
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2 light bulb incident and Mr. Gaffney be
3 provided to me.
4 Keep that over there. That's for
5 your use to take back to the office so you
6 know what I want.
7 Did that incident result in a
8 conversation with Joe Firth?
9 A I believe it did.
10 Q What is your memory of that
11 conversation?
12 A I think it was the second time,
13 and from what I remember, he had told me, I
14 think it was -- it had to be before
15 Thanksgiving last year.
16 Q Okay.
17 A Well, he is not going to be there
18 long, anyway; you know, basically that was
19 the gist of it. I called Joe twice.
20 Q Once after the poker?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And once after the light bulb
23 incident?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Did you ever tell Joe that the
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2 shop steward, Mr. Gaffney, is not putting in
3 a full day's work, he's working short time;
4 some days he is not showing up, some days he
5 only shows up for a short period of time?
6 Wax that communicated to Joe?
7 A When my patience ran out, it was
8 basically after the light bulb incident I
9 mentioned it.
10 Q Not only the light bulb incident,
11 but you told Joe, Gaffney is not putting in a
12 full workday; that would be fair?
13 A Yeah, that would be fair.
14 Q What did Joe say about that?
15 A Joe said, like I said before,
16 bear with me, he is going to be off the job
17 soon. I believe that was the words.
18 Q Now, I want to make sure, I may
19 not have gotten it. I appreciate your
20 candor, and I respect your decisionmaking as
21 an expert. But I'm not sure I understand
22 clearly, although I could guess, but I know
23 the judge would want to know: Why would you
24 pay a shop steward full-time for a job that
25 he did not -- I don't know if a no-show job
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2 is exactly the term, but certainly there were
3 many hours he got paid for that he didn't
4 work. Would that be fair?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Why would you do that?
7 A To keep the peace in the family,
8 basically.
9 Q Did you ever have any personal
10 conversations with Mr. Gaffney, yourself?
11 A I did, yes.
12 Q Did you ever question him about
13 his attendance or his light bulb incident or
14 his poker-playing on the job?
15 A I didn't say about the light bulb
16 incident, no. The poker incident I said
17 something, yes. I believe I said something
18 to him.
19 Q To him directly?
20 A I'm not really sure.
21 Q I want you to think about it,
22 because he's going to be in here under oath
23 pretty soon, and what I want to make certain
24 is, I know what happened. I mean, the same
25 thing I said to you about telling the truth,
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2 I'm going to say to him; all right?
3 A I understand.
4 Q And I have had information, and I
5 may be wrong or right, that when people
6 confronted him about his behavior, he either
7 made threats or said he would do things, or
8 was disrespectful; or unprofessional maybe is
9 a better way of saying it.
10 I want to find out, when you --
11 you know, I take you at your word when you
12 tell me your professionalism about what's
13 happening on the jobsite and trying to run
14 the job correctly.
15 The evidence I have, not just
16 from you, but from others, is that here's a
17 shop steward who is not attending, is playing
18 cards on the jobsite, is knocking out a light
19 bulb, certainly not acting the way a
20 carpenter should. I'm trying to find out
21 whether anyone discussed those topics with
22 him, and what he said in return to justify
23 his behavior, if anything.
24 So did you have a conversation
25 with him on these topics, and if so, what did
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2 you say and what did he say?
3 A I'm trying to think here.
4 Q Take your time.
5 A I don't want to tell you
6 something that is not --
7 Q Let me say this. No human being
8 can remember exact words, and I am not asking
9 you to tell me the exact words. What I'm
10 asking you to tell me is, what was the
11 substance or the content, or the subject
12 matter of what you said to him and what he
13 said to you. I'm not asking you to be a
14 video camera or tape recorder. I am asking
15 you, given your responsibility as basically
16 the super, the field superintendent, you have
17 a shop steward who is not acting at least
18 consistent with what I would consider
19 appropriate be