UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
90 CIV 5722
-against- (CSH)
DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED
BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND
JOINERS OF AMERICA, et.al.,
Defendants.
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Independent Investigator Deposition
February 24, 2005
10:00 o'clock a.m.
DEPOSITION of JEAN-PHILIPPE CASSAGNAU,
taken by the Independent Investigator, Walter
Mack, Esq., pursuant to letter subpoena, at the
offices of Doar, Rieck & Mack, Esqs. 217 Broadway,
New York, New York 10007-2911, before Stewart
Nissenbaum, a Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public
of the State of New York.
TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
305 Madison Avenue 142 Willis Avenue
Suite 449 P.O. BOX 347
New York, N.Y. 10165 Mineola, N.Y. 11501
(212)349-9692 (516)741-5235
1 2
A P P E A R A N C E S :
2
3
DOAR RIECK & MACK
4 217 Broadway, 7th Floor
New York, New York 10007-2911
5
BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.
6 Independent Investigator
7
8
ALSO PRESENT:
9
Donald Sobocienski
10
11
* * *
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15
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2 MR. MACK: Let's go on the
3 record.
4 What I would like to do, since --
5 the reason we have a record is primarily
6 to permit Judge Haight, for whom I work,
7 to have a record to ensure that I am
8 acting consistently with his
9 instructions to me; but more
10 importantly, that he knows exactly what
11 you tell me, in an accurate way, so that
12 basically whatever decisions he needs to
13 make, he is as close to being here as
14 possible, recognizing that he pays great
15 attention to, or takes great interest in
16 what I do, and how I do it.
17 So let me review what we've
18 talked about briefly this morning, just
19 to make sure that the judge understands
20 that I've given you all the rights, and
21 you understand what is happening today.
22 I was appointed buy Judge Haight
23 with the title of Independent
24 Investigator. I work for him. I do not
25 work for the District Council nor the
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2 U.S. Government. My job is to run a
3 hotline and to evaluate the corruption
4 program of the District Council of
5 Carpenters, and determine whether the
6 out-of-work list rules that have been
7 put into place by Judge Haight are
8 working; and if they are not working,
9 why aren't they working, and how they
10 can be improved.
11 Third, if there's any wrongdoing
12 on a jobsite, meaning cash payrolls,
13 inaccurate shop steward reports, people
14 working off the sheets, that is
15 wrongdoing and is defined basically in
16 the Order appointing me. And as I told
17 you a few moments ago, although I spent
18 a lot of time at your current jobsite,
19 and a lot of attention, I am at least
20 not of the view at this time, based upon
21 many different calls to many different
22 people I've spoken to, that I'm not
23 dealing with corruption; I'm dealing
24 with what is happening on the jobsite:
25 How do things occur, how do people get
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2 there, and what is going on at the
3 jobsite.
4 You, as other carpenters in the
5 District Council's jurisdiction, are
6 subject to my authority to send you a
7 letter requesting you to come in.
8 That's in essence a demand that you come
9 in, so it is not a matter of choice, it
10 is a matter of my having the authority
11 to gather evidence under oath so that I
12 can write an accurate report.
13 A number of things I said to you
14 this morning, I want to go over again,
15 to make sure that if you have questions,
16 they will be answered.
17 One: You have a right to have a
18 lawyer present here. Makes no
19 difference to me whether you have one or
20 not; that is your call. If at any time
21 today you feel, when you see how things
22 are proceeding, or you decide at any
23 time, gee, you really would like to have
24 a lawyer to assist you, I will stop this
25 matter or this proceeding today, and
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2 give you an opportunity, a reasonable
3 one, although not a long one, to find a
4 lawyer to represent you here. I would
5 say most people appear without lawyers,
6 but some want lawyers; and it doesn't
7 really make any difference to me,
8 because the basic rule is fundamentally
9 the same: You will be placed under oath
10 in a few moments, and your obligation to
11 me and to the Court, is to tell the
12 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
13 the truth.
14 What your lawyer would say to
15 you, I will say right now. I have no
16 disciplinary power. I'm not a
17 prosecutor. I'm not a defense lawyer.
18 I have been both, but here, I am simply
19 an investigator, gatherer of facts, and
20 report-writer, and so the only real way
21 that you could run into an issue with
22 me, as an agent of the Court, would be
23 to lie under oath or withhold
24 information from me, intentionally, with
25 the intent to deceived or mislead me.
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2 Those are federal crimes called
3 obstruction of justice and perjury.
4 They are separate crimes, both of which
5 carry criminal penalties, including
6 imprisonment.
7 You're not being singled out for
8 that warning, I give every witness who
9 appears that very same warning, and I
10 expect you to honor your oath and tell
11 the truth.
12 I make a point that if I learn
13 that you have lied or held back
14 information, I will recommend to the
15 Court that you be prosecuted for perjury
16 and face criminal charges. I can't
17 think of anything worse, and I would
18 encourage you and I expect you -- I have
19 heard good things about your integrity,
20 and I expect you to honor your oath and
21 answer my questions.
22 A couple of other things are
23 important. One, you have a Fifth
24 Amendment privilege. If I should ask
25 you a question that you feel would tend
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2 to incriminate you -- I can't conceive
3 of any one I intend to ask today,
4 because my questions are going to be
5 focused on topics like how did people
6 get on the jobsite, who recommended
7 them, how did they act when they were
8 there, and what went on on the jobsite,
9 all of which things I'm asking you in
10 your capacity as foreman for the jobsite
11 that I'm interested in.
12 But, it is not my understanding
13 of what you might feel incriminated
14 about, it is yours, the witness's, since
15 every witness who appears -- this is
16 really a proceeding under the umbrella
17 of the Federal Court. You, as any
18 witness in those circumstances, have a
19 Fifth Amendment right. If you feel that
20 I've asked you a question in which you
21 may wish to assert the Fifth, we'll
22 adjourn the matter, because I think,
23 under those circumstances, you should
24 have legal advice.
25 Once you assert the Fifth
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2 Amendment, one, I always refer the
3 matter to a prosecutor to decide why
4 this guy is asserting the Fifth
5 Amendment. Two, I can infer, decide the
6 reason you didn't tell me something on
7 the Fifth Amendment, is that there's
8 some criminal conduct going on on the
9 jobsite. Therefore, since you had an
10 opportunity to straighten me out, that's
11 the main reason you're here, so I
12 understand your point of view, that I
13 can draw conclusions based upon the fact
14 that you didn't provide me information
15 when I asked for it.
16 I don't think I'm going to ask
17 any questions where a Fifth Amendment
18 privilege would be necessary, but if you
19 feel that you do, all you have to do is
20 tell me, and we'll give you time and you
21 can get a lawyer and talk about it.
22 You and I have talked on the
23 telephone about the possibility of
24 having the District Council here and the
25 Government at the same time. It is your
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2 right to have both of them here, if you
3 wish them here. It is my understanding
4 that you are prepared to proceed today
5 in their absence, and that meets with
6 your approval; is that correct?
7 MR. CASSAGNAU: Correct.
8 MR. MACK: I put it on the record
9 so there's no question about it.
10 Fred Dorcheck -- I take it he's
11 the boss of Prince?
12 MR. CASSAGNAU: Super.
13 MR. MACK: Super of Prince.
14 -- has expressed a desire to come
15 in and discuss topics with me at some
16 time. I told you that I intend to bring
17 in a number of people about this
18 jobsite, and I certainly will not
19 conclude my investigation without
20 speaking to him to get his point of view
21 on any of the subjects we are talking
22 about today. I'm telling you to assure
23 him that I will not be reporting to the
24 Court without hearing his perspective
25 and his point of view on any of the
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2 issues or questions that I'm talking to
3 you about today. Is that agreeable?
4 MR. CASSAGNAU: Correct.
5 MR. MACK: Is there any question,
6 anything you would like to ask me before
7 we begin?
8 MR. CASSAGNAU: No.
9 MR. MACK: I just want to
10 introduce Don Sobocienski, who is
11 sitting to my right, who will, from time
12 to time, ask questions. He works with
13 me as part of the Independent
14 Investigator's office, and his job is
15 primarily to gather facts and ensure
16 that there's at least some remote chance
17 that I know what I'm talking about at
18 the time I talk about it. He may ask
19 questions from time to time.
20 Are you prepared to proceed?
21 MR. CASSAGNAU: Yes.
22 MR. MACK: Could I ask the
23 witness be sworn, please?
24 J E A N-P H I L I P P E C A S S A G N A U ,
25 the witness herein, being first duly sworn by
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2 Stewart Nissenbaum, a Notary Public of the
3 State of New York, was examined and testified
4 as follows:
5 EXAMINATION BY
6 MR. MACK:
7 Q I'm going to call you Mr.
8 Cassagnau, is that okay, or may I call you
9 Phil?
10 A Either/or.
11 Q If I do call you by your first
12 name, I mean, the important thing here is
13 that although we have a transcript, it is
14 primarily designed to ensure that when I
15 write this report, I have accurate questions
16 and answers, and that the judge can review
17 what I've done. But this is not a court
18 proceeding, in the sense that it is formal
19 and things of that nature. You should feel
20 comfortable about expressing your views.
21 I'll be asking you from time to time what do
22 you think I should do, what are your
23 suggestions. I want you to feel comfortable
24 and give me the benefit of your experience
25 and perspective on these issues. I know the
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2 Court would, as well.
3 We'll take a break from time to
4 time, primarily to give Mr. Nissenbaum some
5 moments to recoup from interacting with me.
6 Basically, if there's anything
7 you feel that you need to say or that should
8 be said, you should feel free in saying it,
9 because the judge is insistent that if there
10 are matters that are important to his
11 understanding, that each witness get an
12 opportunity to express those views to him.
13 Starting with this, what I would
14 like to do is, as I've told you, I have a
15 series of questions about this particular job
16 that you're the foreman on. Now, rather than
17 my starting off, I've told you that we
18 received a number of calls, received a lot of
19 information, we've had one of the shop
20 stewards, Anthony Arguelles, in, who was
21 removed by the District Council, and he has
22 testified. There will be others who will
23 come in.
24 What I would like you to do, is
25 just give me a general overview about this
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2 job. I think it is 229 Chrystie. Is that
3 the right address for it? I will try to
4 proceed efficiently, because I know you are
5 needed on the jobsite. I will call the
6 jobsite that I'm most interested in, 229
7 Chrystie, not far from where we are now. And
8 I would like to hear from you before I ask
9 questions: Is there anything about your
10 service on that jobsite that you feel either
11 I or the Court should be aware of?
12 A No.
13 Q Is there anything that happened
14 on that jobsite which, in your view, was
15 either inconsistent with the work rules, or
16 you felt was inappropriate or unprofessional?
17 A No.
18 Q So, let me start with a couple of
19 things, and maybe -- I guess the first thing
20 that I should ask you about is how you came
21 to the site for the first time.
22 A I was on another job, and the
23 super told me to go here, we are starting
24 this job.
25 Q What was the other job that you
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2 were on?
3 A 455 Central Park West.
4 Q What street, approximately, is
5 that?
6 A 106th and Central Park West.
7 Q And who was the shop steward on
8 that job?
9 A John Gaffney.
10 Q We had a number of allegations --
11 in fact, Mr. Sobocienski, I think, actually
12 met you briefly on that jobsite; isn't that
13 correct?
14 A Correct.
15 Q We had a number of allegations
16 about Mr. Gaffney not being on the job and
17 keeping the normal carpenter's hours. Was
18 that true or false?
19 A That you had allegations?
20 Q No. In other words, was he on
21 the job for all the hours the shop steward
22 job required?
23 A No, he wasn't.
24 Q Can you give me some idea of what
25 his attendance was, from your point of view?
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2 A From 11:30 to 12:30, coming in
3 and playing poker; leaving 1:20.
4 Q Why did he feel he was entitled
5 to do that, if you know?
6 A Because he was telling me he was
7 with the Westies; with the Westies.
8 Q I know the Westies very well,
9 having spent time in the courtroom with a
10 number of them. I'm trying to figure out
11 what his being --
12 A He thought he was above everybody
13 else, and thought he was highly connected
14 with this one and that one, and he could stop
15 this job or that job, the material being
16 moved and everything else being moved.
17 Q Was he paid for a full day?
18 A He was paid, never taxed.
19 Q Why was that?
20 A Because he could bring on
21 problems.
22 Q Give me an example of the types
23 of problems he threatened, or brought up.
24 A He will stop other men from
25 working, and creating problem after problem
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2 with guys.
3 Q Did he threaten that he would be
4 able to stop the job?
5 A He was threatening, when he got
6 his check, he was threatening that he could
7 stop material being brought up to the jobs in
8 Manhattan. Basically, I played hide and seek
9 for a year and a half with him.
10 Q I think I know what that means;
11 let's assume the judge may not.
12 A He was getting a free check to
13 hide out all day. Mr. Sobocienski came up
14 there once before with Mike Murphy, and they
15 were looking for him. I did have to lie to
16 them, stating he was here all the time. Mike
17 Murphy is connected, Mike Murphy and John
18 Gaffney are good friends. If I said anything
19 bad, negative, about Gaffney while they are
20 there, it would come right back to haunt me.
21 Q What do you mean, come back to
22 haunt you? What do you believe, in your
23 mind, would be the impact of your being
24 honest?
25 A I wouldn't know the extent of it.
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2 But they control the big deals of the unions.
3 Q I would like -- how long did that
4 job on Central Park West last?
5 A A year and a half.
6 Q Was Gaffney the shop steward?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Was he the first shop steward who
9 opened the job?
10 A Yes; not the last. They laid him
11 off and brought in somebody else there.
12 Q When was Gaffney laid off?
13 A It was after I left, after I
14 left. And he went to give him his layoff
15 check, this is coming from another foreman,
16 to give him his layoff check, and he refused
17 to take it, and kept coming back every day.
18 Q Was he paid?
19 A No. They tried to set up a
20 meeting with the delegates or business agents
21 to have him removed or laid off, and nobody
22 would ever respond to Freddie Dorcheck's
23 calls.
24 Q Is Freddie Dorcheck familiar with
25 this?
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2 A He knows all about it. It was up
3 to him whether to pay him or not.
4 Q Why did Mr. Dorcheck pay this
5 guy, if you know, pay Gaffney?
6 A I guess problems, just problems
7 with this guy. He was real arrogant, a
8 scumbag.
9 Q You speak your mind, but my
10 feeling here is, that I want to make sure I
11 understand.
12 A In the beginning he came in to do
13 protection. When I got to the job, I told
14 him what to do, and he wouldn't do it. I
15 asked him what do you do here. He told me,
16 just stay out of my way, was his remark to
17 me. After that, I called my super, told him
18 about the problems; and he wanted to work
19 them out with him, not that we don't have
20 problems with him. It is going to be a long
21 job; I don't want to go through the beginning
22 and have problems at the end.
23 Q When you say your super, you're
24 talking about Fred Dorcheck?
25 A Right.
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2 Q Would it be fair to say that John
3 Gaffney's attendance was consistently short
4 throughout the job?
5 A The first three months he was
6 there every single day. After three months,
7 four months, it started becoming less and
8 less, and then he would come by -- there
9 would be days he wouldn't even show, come in
10 on Thursday, pick up his check. That was
11 it. He was doing real estate school on the
12 side during the day, he was buying a house
13 here and there in New Jersey, and throughout
14 the whole time, while he was supposed to be
15 on the job.
16 Q Who kept track of the carpenters
17 on the job, in his absence?
18 A He came and copied off my time
19 book. I let him use my time book to copy
20 them.
21 Q Other than Gaffney, were there
22 any other carpenters who were paid for not
23 showing there, or for hours they weren't
24 there on that job?
25 A No. None with my crew.
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2 Q The only carpenter who was being
3 paid for hours not on the job, was John
4 Gaffney, the shop steward?
5 A Correct.
6 Q I could guess about this, but you
7 can be certain that I will be asking
8 Mr. Dorcheck why he determined to pay what
9 was in essence a no-show shop steward. Did
10 you have a discussion with Mr. Dorcheck about
11 that, or not?
12 A Yeah, numerous times I asked him
13 what's the story with him, giving him a free
14 check, or whatever.
15 Q Right.
16 A His attitude, Gaffney brought up
17 problems where nobody could use a shotgun,
18 power gun for sheetrocking and things like
19 that, make sure that everybody -- which he
20 has no jurisdiction of. That's the New York
21 Fire Department who could declare whether
22 they should be able to use the gun or not.
23 He threatened as far as stopping this guy and
24 that guy.
25 Q Is there anything else on that
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2 jobsite besides this, what I consider a
3 substantial problem, that occurred, that you
4 felt was not right or shouldn't be happening
5 on the Central Park West jobsite?
6 A With him not being there, you had
7 other carpenter outfits coming in which
8 didn't have a steward, didn't have the men
9 matched, and nobody was there to monitor who
10 was coming, going; laborers doing carpenters
11 work or not.
12 Q Do you remember the names of any
13 of the contractors, the carpentry
14 contractors, who were on the jobsite who did
15 not have a steward and did not have
16 appropriate supervision?
17 A You had La Strada, who was there.
18 They are a concrete outfit doing work, they
19 never had a steward. As far as carpenters,
20 they might have had a couple, you would see
21 laborers do work.
22 Q Laborers doing carpentry work?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Right?
25 A Triple C; that was over there
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2 doing carpentry, they worked for a short term
3 before they received a steward. Eventually,
4 they did get a steward.
5 Q Take your time.
6 (Pause.)
7 A You had a trim outfit that was
8 there also, I can't remember the name right
9 now, that was over there.
10 Q I'm going to give you a piece of
11 paper and a pen, if it comes to you, or there
12 are things you're going to try to remember,
13 you can put them down as things -- after we
14 take a break, basically, if you remember it.
15 Was there anything else besides
16 that, that was not done? You know, you're a
17 carpenter, so obviously, you're concerned
18 about the jurisdiction as well as being the
19 foreman. Was there anything else happening
20 on that jobsite that you felt was not proper
21 or should have been corrected?
22 A No.
23 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: There was a
24 jurisdictional issue there with the
25 windows with ornamental ironworkers
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2 doing --
3 THE WITNESS: The windows.
4 MR. MACK: Explain what you know.
5 THE WITNESS: Ironworkers doing
6 the windows, and there was wood blocking
7 they were attaching to, and it should
8 have been done by carpenters. Wound up
9 they had no carpenters, they just had
10 ironworkers doing it. Wound up getting
11 the BAs there. After the BAs came, they
12 put one carpenter to work with the
13 ironworkers.
14 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Was John
15 Gaffney involved in that jurisdictional
16 problem, and did he meet with the BAs?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, he went over
18 it with the BAs.
19 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: How did he know
20 to be there those days that the BA
21 showed up?
22 THE WITNESS: This was towards
23 the beginning. I was the one that
24 brought it to his attention, that it is
25 carpenters, once it's going into wood
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2 blocking. Somebody should be getting
3 paid for that, a carpenter should be on
4 the books while they are installing
5 them.
6 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: You said that
7 Gaffney was on the job playing poker,
8 cards?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Who was he
11 playing cards with?
12 THE WITNESS: It seemed like he
13 would just come in and do that; and that
14 was it, turn around and go home.
15 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: The day Mike
16 Murray and I were there to check on his
17 presence, how did it come to be reported
18 to me that he was at the dentist?
19 THE WITNESS: That day, he was at
20 the dentist, as far as being there, he
21 wasn't there.
22 Q Who was he playing poker with in
23 the shanty, if that is where it was?
24 A As far as names, I don't want to
25 tell the names, but they were playing poker,
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2 not working on the job with Prince Carpentry.
3 At night and Saturdays and Sundays he would
4 be working for his brother, his brother owned
5 an outfit and he would go moonlighting with
6 his brother where he would put his tools on
7 and go to work. During the day, the job I'm
8 paying him for, he wouldn't be putting on
9 tools.
10 Q Do you know his brother's outfit?
11 A All T and M jobs probably handed
12 out by 608 from an out-of-state outfit, and
13 give it to his brother.
14 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Is his name
15 Paul?
16 THE WITNESS: I didn't get
17 involved with it.
18 Q Would there be any other
19 carpenters on the jobsite -- was it 455
20 CPW -- that were upset about the lack of a
21 shop steward being there?
22 A I'm sure everybody is, but as far
23 as anybody coming out and saying it, I don't
24 think they would; 608, they could be
25 blackballed through 608, and have nothing but
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1 Jean-Philippe Cassagnau 27
2 problems there.
3 Q What were the circumstances under
4 which you got assigned to go down to the 229
5 Chrystie Street situation? In other words,
6 did Mr. Dorcheck tell you --
7 A That was his decision that that
8 job was finished with me up there. He
9 brought in a foreman that runs less men.
10 Q The foreman on the 229 Chrystie
11 Street when you arrived, was whom?
12 A Michael C-o-u-g-l-i-n or
13 g-h-l-i-n.
14 Q When you arrived on the job, how
15 many carpenters were on the site, do you
16 know?
17 A Six; seven, maybe, tops.
18 Q We have the shop steward reports,
19 and from time to time, I will give them to
20 you to assist you. Michael Coughlin, was he
21 someone that's a foreman on a normal basis
22 for Prince, early on, on the job?
23 A Yes.
24 Q What does he handle; protection?
25 A Protection.
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2 Q Anything else?
3 A Setting doors and doing
4 protection basically, building shanties.
5 Q When you arrived there, who was
6 the shop steward?
7 A Stephen -- Anthony Arguelles.
8 Q Are you familiar with his brother
9 Stephen?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Are Stephen and Anthony
12 individuals who are frequently, shall we say,
13 approved or interested in by Mr. Dorcheck? I
14 don't know if you understand that question.
15 A Whether he likes them or not?
16 Q Yes.
17 A He says they're good mechanics.
18 Q Why are they on so many Prince
19 jobs?
20 A I don't know. It is not my
21 decision. I met them at Chrystie Street.
22 Q Were there any problems that you
23 noticed, or came to your attention, when you
24 first came to 229 Chrystie Street?
25 A No.
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2 Q I want to ask you about several
3 individuals. Would it be fair -- my question
4 to you, are you familiar with many of the
5 people that Prince uses on jobsites; in other
6 words, legitimate company men?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Let me ask you about several of
9 them. Wayne Wong?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Is he a person that Prince uses
12 frequently?
13 A Yes.
14 Q He would be somebody that would
15 be considered a company man, at least
16 initially; would that be true?
17 A Yes.
18 Q How about Kevin Dao?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Is that a company person who
21 works frequently for Prince?
22 A Yes.
23 Q How about Patrick Lynch?
24 A Yes. He was.
25 Q How about Nicola Cerincione?
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2 A Yes.
3 Q He is normally a company person?
4 A Correct.
5 Q Were any of those three gentlemen
6 at 455 CPW?
7 A Yes, Wayne Wong was. Micky
8 Cerincione.
9 Q How about Kevin Dao?
10 A No.
11 Q Jose Gomez? You don't know him?
12 A Doesn't sound familiar.
13 Q Are you familiar with, I'm sure
14 you are, are you familiar with the concept of
15 50/50 on jobsites?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Was there ever a time, when you
18 were acting as the foreman, in which either
19 you were told or were aware that the 50/50
20 was not being maintained at 229 Chrystie?
21 A Sal Tagliafarro said something to
22 me, and I told him to send me two guys
23 tomorrow. I brought it to him, bring me two
24 guys. I called the hall, asking for guys; I
25 can't get them.
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2 Q We are going to talk about that
3 in a moment.
4 I see you for the first time on
5 the jobsite, at least in the shop steward
6 report, and I'm going the show it to you so
7 you will see what I'm looking at here, and it
8 may help you. You should feel free to look
9 at the shop steward reports any time you
10 wish, if they help. I'm going to give these
11 to you, you can take them with you or not.
12 We put an exhibit marker on it
13 which says JPC-2, those are your initials,
14 and the number means nothing other than to
15 help me keep track of it. I'm going to give
16 you one so you can look with me at some of
17 the questions that I may have here.
18 (Shop steward reports marked
19 Exhibit JPC-2.)
20 Q The first time I see you is for
21 the pay week starting on the 13th. So they
22 are all in chronological order. Turn your
23 way through it until you see that.
24 Let's go back. I rely on both of
25 you gentlemen. I see you there one Saturday,
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2 on September 11th, on the pay week starting
3 September 8. And at that time, Anthony
4 Arguelles signed as the shop steward, and
5 Michael Coughlin is the foreman.
6 A Correct.
7 Q Why were you there that Saturday?
8 A Building shanties.
9 Q How would you describe the state
10 of the job at that time?
11 A The beginning of the job, they
12 were just doing protection, and we were
13 making a shanty for the general contractor.
14 Q You only worked that Saturday to
15 build the shanty. You went back to 455?
16 A I came there as a worker, to
17 work.
18 Q Then if you turn, the next time I
19 see you is October 15, that would be the pay
20 week starting October 13?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And so would that be the date
23 that you were really appointed foreman?
24 A Correct.
25 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Do you have
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2 your books with you, or are they on the
3 job?
4 THE WITNESS: I have the time
5 book on me.
6 MR. MACK: I want to make a copy
7 of that.
8 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Do you have
9 access to it?
10 THE WITNESS: I might be able to
11 find it.
12 Q When you find it, we are going to
13 follow up with this thing on Gaffney.
14 A Is this all coming back to him,
15 that I'm saying this?
16 Q It may, eventually. It won't
17 until we've gathered evidence from other
18 people, including Fred Dorcheck. My feeling
19 is, that eventually Mr. Gaffney will be
20 brought in here by me. He's not going to be
21 told what my evidence is. I will gather
22 evidence before I bring him in. But Mr.
23 Dorcheck will be asked about Gaffney, there's
24 no question about that.
25 A Hang him.
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2 Q I'll go right at him, one way or
3 the other. If he wants to lie, he suffers
4 the same consequences as anybody else does.
5 All right. I can say this: If
6 anybody comes to you and says why are you
7 doing this, you have no choice, you come in
8 and you are required to testify under oath
9 and provide whatever; it is like the judge is
10 not going to say, I don't want you to do
11 that. He is going to say, why the hell
12 didn't you go after Gaffney?
13 It is not choosing to tell the
14 truth; it is a question of you have to tell
15 the truth. You don't have a choice, nobody
16 has a choice, you know, in terms of telling
17 the truth. That would be true for Fred
18 Dorcheck as well. He comes in and tells me,
19 no, Gaffney was there, every day, he worked
20 overtime, never played cards, I never heard,
21 he is going to have a problem with me, the
22 same way you would if you didn't tell me the
23 truth.
24 A Actually, I think he did see him
25 playing cards once.
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2 Q You saw him playing cards fairly
3 routinely; would that be fair?
4 A Yes.
5 Q When you came to the job, was
6 there anything about the job -- before I go
7 there, I want to ask a question that I should
8 have, about 455. Did business agents come to
9 that job during that time period, other than
10 for the window issue?
11 A Organizers; that's basically it.
12 Q Why didn't they find that Gaffney
13 wasn't there?
14 A He never showed up. Joe Firth
15 was the organizer in that territory, rarely
16 showed up. When he showed up, Gaffney knew
17 about it.
18 Q How do you know that?
19 A They are good friends.
20 Q How many times would you say --
21 A They are all connected, from one
22 to the next.
23 Q I can't make any assumptions; I
24 have to go step-by-step. I'm an evidence
25 person, a fact guy. What may be logical and
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2 what you may know from years of working, I
3 have to go step-by-step.
4 How many times was Joe Firth on
5 that 455 CPW jobsite?
6 A I seen him about five times
7 there, talking to Gaffney and another steward
8 that was on that job.
9 Q Was he ever on the site when
10 Gaffney wasn't there?
11 A I don't think so.
12 Q Why do you think that Gaffney
13 knew Firth would be on the site?
14 A He probably called him, told him
15 he was coming around.
16 Q That's just an assumption?
17 A Yes. I said, "There's no law
18 that states a shop steward doesn't have to
19 work," on 455. He brushed me off and walked
20 away.
21 Q You're sure that conversation
22 occurred?
23 A Clear as day.
24 Q One thing I should tell you,
25 Phil, is, if at any time, before or after
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2 somebody comes to you and tries to discourage
3 you from either telling the truth or to tell
4 a story which you know to be untrue, you
5 should tell me that. That is a crime. Okay?
6 If anybody tries to influence your testimony
7 in any way, other than what truth is, you
8 should let me know.
9 A Nobody has.
10 Q Should somebody, in the future,
11 do it, I would like to know.
12 A I'm not going to be influenced.
13 Q I don't think you are, either. I
14 want to make sure.
15 A Coming to my house and
16 threatening me, that's a different story.
17 Q If they do that, I want to know
18 about it. I don't think they will. If --
19 A It could come to it.
20 Q We've already had one guy
21 arrested who tried to pull that situation.
22 The fact is, if somebody tries to, in any
23 way, influence you or act inappropriately to
24 you, whether it is at your home or on the
25 jobsite, or whatever, I would like to hear
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2 about it right away. Clear enough?
3 A Crystal clear.
4 Q I think what I would like to do
5 is take a five-minute break so you can answer
6 whatever calls, and I have to make one phone
7 call, and then we'll continue and finish. We
8 shouldn't be more than another hour, at most,
9 and you'll be gone.
10 A Fine.
11 MR. MACK: Let's take five
12 minute.
13 (Short recess taken.)
14 MR. MACK: Back on the record.
15 Q Everything I said to you before,
16 is exactly the same, in terms of your rights,
17 and what have you. You are still under oath,
18 and I want to proceed through this jobsite;
19 and I appreciate your candor and directness.
20 It will permit me to do my job. I want to
21 continue in that vein, and ask you some
22 questions here as I move through the job.
23 I guess maybe the first question
24 I should ask you, were there any carpenters
25 brought to this jobsite as a result of the
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2 action or recommendation of a business agent?
3 A Not on the list, you're asking?
4 Q You know, I'm pretty familiar
5 with how the list works; they can go on the
6 list and then get off. In terms of people
7 actually showing up at the jobsite, did any
8 of them come through the recommendation of a
9 business agent?
10 A No. Everybody that came, we
11 called up and asked for them. On Chrystie
12 Street.
13 Q Right. Were there other jobs in
14 which business agents did bring people to the
15 jobsite?
16 A Chrystie Street, everything is
17 good.
18 Q Were there other jobsites that
19 weren't good; for instance, 455, were there
20 carpenters --
21 A 455, I believe they were all off
22 the list, all came off the list.
23 Q My question is a little bit more
24 complex than that, because I've already
25 written the judge about how the request
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2 system works. And I'm pretty critical of the
3 request system, because I don't think it
4 really has much meaning more significant to
5 out-of-work carpenters. My question is more
6 explicit than that.
7 Are there people, even though
8 they came off the list, who Prince put on
9 this job as a result of an introduction or a
10 recommendation from a business agent or
11 another carpenter?
12 A No. I have no say where they
13 come from or who knows them, or nothing.
14 Q I know that. But, in other
15 words --
16 A To the best of my knowledge, the
17 guys come here; whether it is the business
18 agent's friend or not, I'm not aware of it.
19 Q Who makes the decision -- let me
20 give you a hypothetical question; all right?
21 Hypothetical: Who makes the decision at
22 Prince to direct you, as the foreman, to put
23 a carpenter on? Fred Dorcheck?
24 Do you understand the question?
25 A I have the -- I could put on any
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2 guy I want that comes to the job. If
3 somebody asks me, I have a friend, I would
4 like to put him on, I have the authority to
5 put him on. Do I? Not often.
6 Q Did you do anything of that
7 nature on this 229 Chrystie Street?
8 A No. As far as -- guys asked me,
9 I didn't -- no, I didn't put them on. I
10 would have to go through and see exactly. I
11 had 107 guys, probably a total of 200.
12 Q I have names; I'm going to be
13 asking names.
14 A Go at names.
15 Q I basically want -- from the
16 point of view of your own recollection, were
17 there -- I'll be direct -- were there any
18 carpenters or apprentices, mechanics or
19 apprentices, that were put on at the
20 suggestion of a business agent?
21 A No, I wouldn't talk to the
22 business agent where he would say I'm sending
23 you one of my guys.
24 Q Did you ever have any discussions
25 with -- you know who Bill Hanley is?
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2 A Yes, I do.
3 Q Did you have any discussions with
4 Bill Hanley about your hiring decisions or
5 layoff decisions?
6 A Yes, he did come down and
7 complained about everybody that he sent to me
8 is no good, but all of my guys are great.
9 Q Who did he send you? You feel
10 free to go through the --
11 A That was one of the guys in the
12 beginning.
13 Q Why don't you go through them. I
14 would start in the beginning. I want to find
15 out how some of these people got on your
16 jobsite, as far as you know. You tell me,
17 first, the people who were people that Bill
18 Hanley said he sent you.
19 A I'm not saying that he sent them
20 to me, but they were 157 guys, I believe.
21 Q You can assume that I will go
22 back and look at the job histories for
23 everybody on this jobsite. But I'm asking
24 you, from your recollection and experience.
25 A There was one guy I remember
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2 clear as day. I have to get his name. He
3 said what was wrong with him.
4 Q I'll give you a suggestion where
5 you might find this gentleman, okay?
6 A It was in the beginning of the
7 job.
8 Q Yes; look on the week of November
9 3rd.
10 A Joseph Vecchiarello; is that
11 correct?
12 Q I had somebody in mind. I want
13 you to tell me about Joseph Vecchiarello.
14 How did he get to your jobsite?
15 A I remember saying, send me a guy.
16 Whether he came off the list or not, I'm not
17 aware of it at all. As far as Billy saying
18 he sent them to me, I don't know if that was
19 one of the guys off the list, or a friend of
20 his.
21 Q You can assume that every
22 District Council record concerning some of
23 these people, I will have the benefit of.
24 Unless you looked at the records, I'm not
25 asking questions that have to do with what's
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2 on the record. I can deal with records.
3 Okay?
4 A Okay.
5 Q All I'm asking you about is, how
6 did this guy show up on the site, as far as
7 you know?
8 A I don't remember, I don't
9 remember how he came in, but he was one of
10 the guys -- he was the guy that Billy said
11 something about, like this guy is no good.
12 My guys are good, and this guy sucks.
13 Q Meaning that you were picking on
14 people he sent you, his guy, he described
15 Joseph Vecchiarello as his guy; would that be
16 fair?
17 A Yes, basically.
18 Q Use your own words. I don't want
19 to put words in your mouth.
20 A Yes, it was one of his guys, one
21 of his union men.
22 Q Okay. Did you know anything
23 about Joseph Vecchiarello before he arrived
24 at your site?
25 A No. Never spoke to the guy,
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2 never talked to him while he was there, or
3 anything.
4 Q Did he ever work for Prince
5 before, as far as you know?
6 A As far as I know, no.
7 Q He's carried on this sheet here,
8 the one I'm looking at, I only see him on
9 your job one, two, three days, because I
10 don't see him on the next sheet. So I'm
11 trying to figure out here what's the story on
12 him. He showed up. Why was he put on?
13 A He's a carpenter, and I put him
14 on. Whether he came from the union -- where
15 he came from, I don't know. He came on to
16 the job, I tried him out. He wasn't a
17 carpenter, to the best of my knowledge, he
18 knew nothing about the business.
19 Q Tell me how you made that
20 assessment; did you observe him work?
21 A When I told him what to do, it
22 showed he had no clue as far as making a
23 bridge that Bloomberg was going to stand on
24 and would have fallen off.
25 Q When he arrived at the jobsite,
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2 looks like the first day -- I have faith in
3 these shop steward reports, of course, my
4 feeling -- is there anybody on these shop
5 steward reports that was not there for the
6 hours reported, as far as you're concerned?
7 A On 2/29?
8 Q On 2/29.
9 A No. You had Salvatore
10 Tagliafarro; he went on vacation for two
11 weeks.
12 Q We are going to get to that.
13 A As far as everybody else that was
14 on this job, was there. The only one that
15 got paid for not being there was Sal, for two
16 weeks.
17 Q We'll talk about that. Sal will
18 be sitting in the same seat you're sitting
19 in. It is just a matter of time.
20 In other words, maybe just look
21 at the bottom of this pay week starting
22 November 3rd. Is any writing, at the bottom
23 there, is any of that yours? There's a
24 certification by employer rep. See at the
25 very bottom?
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2 A Yes.
3 Q Is that your scratch there?
4 A Yes, it is.
5 Q Would it be fair for me to
6 presume that any time I see your name signed,
7 that you are comfortable with the accuracy of
8 the shop steward report?
9 A Not exactly, because I just sign
10 them. They mean nothing to me.
11 Q Do you keep a separate sheet of
12 what the hours are that you believe to be
13 accurate? In other words, a timesheet that
14 the foreman keeps?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Do you have those with you today?
17 A Yes.
18 Q What I would like to do is copy
19 those in our next break. Obviously, what you
20 have in your book, you would tell me those
21 are the hours; correct?
22 A Yes. Whether they match, I don't
23 check every one of them.
24 Q I don't care if they match. I'm
25 using this as an aid for you and I to talk
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2 about various people. I'm going to rely upon
3 your book as being the accurate record of the
4 hours on there.
5 So, for instance, if
6 Mr. Tagliaferro was absent, what would I see
7 in your time book; that he wasn't on the job,
8 or would there be hours there?
9 A He went away for vacation, two
10 weeks. Other than that, I don't think he's
11 missed a day there.
12 Q If somebody wasn't there, there
13 would be an X there, on your book, in the
14 time that Salvatore was away, what am I going
15 to see?
16 A 7's; I put 7's there.
17 Q He wasn't there?
18 A That's the way I called it in.
19 Q When we get to that --
20 A If he is to get paid, I have to
21 put a "7" there when I call in the payroll.
22 Q From the way I look at it, when a
23 person is not there, let's pick on
24 Mr. Gaffney for a moment, if you put down
25 seven hours, if he is playing poker for an
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2 hour and a half, in my view, he shouldn't be
3 paid for the hours he is not working; or if
4 he is paid, there should be an explanation as
5 to why he's being paid while not on the job.
6 That's what I've told the
7 District Council, how stewards act. I want a
8 notation on the shop steward report that
9 basically the person is being paid for seven
10 hours, but he was only on the job an hour and
11 a half. That's the rule that I have told the
12 District Council that I will recommend to the
13 judge, and they better enforce.
14 A That's the way you want these
15 written.
16 Q Let's take Sal. If Sal, for
17 instance, he's on vacation, let's say, I
18 realize it is not at this time period, when
19 there's seven hours reported, let's say this
20 was a vacation week, I want a note to the
21 effect that he was not on the job on those
22 hours not recorded.
23 A I believe when he wasn't there,
24 he didn't put himself in.
25 Q We are getting there. I'm
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2 telling the shop steward, through the
3 District Council, the reports have to be
4 accurate, is what it boils down to. If it's
5 the contractor's choice to pay a guy when he
6 ain't there, then I'm going to talk to the
7 contractor: Why are you doing this; is it
8 because he is not doing his job or is it
9 because you're a nice guy and you feel -- his
10 wife is sick, whatever the reason. I want to
11 have it flagged for situations where people
12 are being paid for not being there, and
13 sometimes that's okay and sometimes it ain't
14 okay. I want to know about it. That's
15 basically what I have told the District
16 Council and what I've told the judge, the way
17 it should be.
18 Let's go back to Mr. Vecchiarello
19 here. He shows up on the jobsite, you'd
20 never seen this gentleman before?
21 A No.
22 Q Can you describe him for me, his
23 age and weight?
24 A Probably thirty, thirty-two years
25 old, five foot three, maybe 140 pounds.
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2 Q Did you talk to him when he first
3 arrived on the jobsite?
4 A Yes, I asked him what does he
5 know, what has he done, who was he working
6 for.
7 Q Did he say why he was there, why
8 did he show up on the site?
9 A Looking for work.
10 Q Looking for work?
11 A Yes. I do not recall exactly the
12 day he came in; I can't give you the exact
13 statement coming from him, or how we
14 introduced each other.
15 Q I'm trying to find out why you
16 put this guy on. What was the reason that --
17 I'm sure there must be people that go to your
18 jobsite and want to be put on that you don't
19 put on. You don't put everybody that shows
20 up on?
21 A No.
22 Q I'm trying to figure out why you
23 put this guy on.
24 A When somebody walks in, first
25 impression, you try to go by that, but it is
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2 not always the right way.
3 Q What was your first impression?
4 A I thought he knew what he was
5 doing. If he comes in with a taper's bag,
6 you've seen he is in the business, or if he
7 comes with a suitcase; he sold a good line of
8 shit to me. As far as working, that he
9 worked this, worked for this company; I don't
10 recall the exact companies, stating he done
11 shaft walls and --
12 Q I have a pretty good idea where
13 Joe Vecchiarello was before he came to you.
14 If he told you something, that he worked
15 another job --
16 A I had no conversation with the
17 guy, where he came from or anything. I don't
18 know the guy at all. First time meeting him
19 was there, and our conversations were
20 limited. I gave him a shot. After a couple
21 of days, he was nothing.
22 Q He was put on as a union person.
23 If you put him on and he shaped the job, why
24 wasn't he put on as a company person?
25 A I have no idea. I could not tell
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2 you whether he's union or company. I don't
3 know.
4 Q He is listed here. I'll ask;
5 I'll ask him, probably. I just want -- I
6 look to you as being a person who knows his
7 business and is a straight-shooter, and I'm
8 trying to figure out --
9 A If he is a friend of Bill
10 Hanley's? I don't know the guy at all.
11 Q Did Bill Hanley ever mention this
12 guy to you, at any time?
13 A He said, what happened to Joe, he
14 asked me what happened to Joe after I laid
15 him off. When I laid him off, I explained to
16 him what he did, and I told him the reasons
17 for him getting laid off. That was it. I
18 didn't carry it on any further.
19 This is when he made the remarks,
20 the 157 guys are no good, but the guys with
21 the company are great rockers or great
22 workers.
23 Q Just to make sure I have it
24 correct, when you saw Mr. Vecchiarello, and
25 you decided to put him on, and I obviously
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2 will try to figure out why -- if you made the
3 decision to put him on, he should have gone
4 on as a company person. That's something I
5 will have to talk to Mr. Hanley about.
6 Putting that aside, you made a
7 decision this guy looked like he was a
8 competent carpenter. Is that what you're
9 telling me?
10 A Yes.
11 Q What did you ask him to do?
12 A I put him to work, some various
13 framing details.
14 Q Did you go up and observe his
15 work at some time?
16 A Yes, I observed his work, and how
17 he did it and what he was doing; and he
18 showed no clue on what he was doing.
19 Q How would you describe his
20 carpentry skills?
21 A Second-year apprentice.
22 Q Why did you let him work for
23 three days?
24 A The first two days I believe he
25 was working with somebody else, so I think
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2 the third day he was building a stage,
3 building a stage, and he showed no clue as to
4 the carpentry.
5 Q Do you remember anything
6 particularly that he did, that gave you that
7 impression?
8 A Yes, we are building a platform;
9 and instead of him putting the beams on edge,
10 he was laying them flat and putting boards on
11 top, which didn't fly.
12 Q Did you have a conversation with
13 him about his work?
14 A No, I just shook my head and got
15 his check.
16 Q Did you give him his layoff
17 check?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Did he have any words with you at
20 the time?
21 A I don't recall. I don't recall
22 him saying anything.
23 Q How long after the layoff, which
24 appears to be on November 5th, did Bill
25 Hanley mention Mr. Vecchiarello to you?
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2 A I couldn't tell you. I couldn't
3 tell you exact dates.
4 Q Was it immediately after the
5 layoff, or days later?
6 A It might have been weeks, it
7 might have been days, I don't remember the
8 exact time.
9 Q Do you remember where you were
10 when Mr. Hanley had this conversation with
11 you about Mr. Vecchiarello? Was it in the
12 shanty?
13 A It was right outside the shanty.
14 Q Anyone else present at the time?
15 A I don't know; I don't think so.
16 Q You're not sure whether there was
17 or wasn't. You think there wasn't anyone
18 else present?
19 A I don't believe anybody was
20 there. This can't all be Mr. Joe
21 Vecchiarello.
22 Q No.
23 A That's the least of the men, I
24 think.
25 Q Who are the other ones that I
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2 should be asking you about?
3 A I believe it is going to be
4 Calvert Williams.
5 Q I'm certainly going to talk to
6 you about Calvert Williams. Let me start
7 this way on the subject of Calvert Williams.
8 You brought me, and I just want
9 to show you the exhibit, what I have marked
10 as JPC-5, which is a copy of the cards that I
11 asked you to provide. Okay? What I would
12 like you to do is tell me, what's the story
13 on these cards; what do they represent, in
14 your mind?
15 (Cards, coalitions organizations,
16 marked Exhibit JPC-5.)
17 A To my mind, coalition guys, other
18 organizations of other carpenters.
19 Q Did any of these organizations on
20 JPC-5, have, shall we say, some interaction
21 with you on this jobsite at 229?
22 A Correct.
23 Q Could you tell me, maybe you can
24 split them off, if they are different, or
25 just tell me how these coalition
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2 organizations came to be involved in this
3 job, as far as you know?
4 A As far as I know, they came in
5 the beginning of the job and spoke to the
6 general contractor, and he agreed to put some
7 of these guys on to work.
8 Q Do you know the names of the
9 carpenters that actually were put on this
10 jobsite under your supervision?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Could you give those names to me,
13 please? If you need to, look at the shop
14 steward reports.
15 A Augustine Thomas came from P&D
16 Construction.
17 Q I'm going to write them down.
18 Keep going.
19 A Calvert Williams came from New
20 Era.
21 Jamie Drinkwater came from
22 Positive Work Force.
23 Q Who made the decision, if you
24 know, to put these three gentlemen to work?
25 A They come in and they asked to
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2 put guys to work, they gave their card. It
3 was kind of a strong-arm.
4 Q You tell me what happened, from
5 your perspective, with respect to these three
6 organizations.
7 A They come to the job and they
8 wanted to put a guy on to work; as far as me,
9 I don't deal with it. I called up Freddie
10 and told him who is here, wanted to talk to
11 you; "we are not leaving until we put a guy
12 to work". I called Dorcheck, and he says,
13 "If you have a good guy, fine".
14 Q In the situation of these three
15 organizations, did they come to you to talk
16 to you first, or did they talk to someone
17 else?
18 A The only one I spoke to was New
19 Era, the only one I spoke to.
20 Q In that situation, you say it's
21 sort of a strong-arm?
22 A They came to the job and they
23 said: Who is in charge over here? I said, I
24 am. And they tell me who they are and what
25 they are looking for, to put guys to work.
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2 Q Why didn't you tell him, I'm
3 sorry, the only people I put on are people I
4 know or the unions give me?
5 A I'm always looking to hire guys
6 with the coalitions; we have a lot of
7 carpenters on the job, if these guys come to
8 the job and harass the other carpenters, I
9 would rather put one of these guys to work
10 than have them come every week harassing the
11 workers there. There's no deal with these
12 guys that they can't get fired. I made it
13 crystal clear, if a guy is not working, he is
14 not staying here. They agreed to it.
15 Whether they are union guys or not, I have
16 the right to hire a carpenter, and that's
17 what I was looking for. I've hired many guys
18 off the streets.
19 Q It is a question of, if it is
20 your judgment, free and clear, to put someone
21 on without strong-arm, that's your decision.
22 The question is, what is the type of conduct
23 that they utilize, either on the jobsite or
24 off, in order to be able to get your
25 agreement to put people on? I mean, there
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2 are definite issues that have been presented
3 to me that representatives of at least one,
4 and maybe another, have actually gone on the
5 jobsite to make collections on the jobsite.
6 A Collections?
7 Q Collections of money from working
8 carpenters on your jobsite. That's the
9 allegation.
10 A Whether they pay them, I have no
11 idea.
12 Q What I'm trying to figure out, is
13 why, hypothetically, someone from one of
14 these organizations is permitted on your
15 jobsite to interact with carpenters.
16 A To work with carpenters?
17 Q In other words, why are they
18 permitted on the jobsite to insist on money
19 being paid by a carpenter on your jobsite?
20 A I'm not sure how to answer.
21 Q Let's take a hypothetical
22 situation. One of the carpenters that you
23 decided to put on as a result of a coalition
24 effort, is working on the jobsite and is,
25 shall we say, confronted by a representative
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1 Jean-Philippe Cassagnau 62
2 of the coalition and forced to pay a sum of
3 money as a reward for being -- for getting a
4 job. I'm trying to figure out why --
5 A It would come from that
6 organization, not -- nothing to do with the
7 guys on the job. That's the deal. I have no
8 clue what they pay, or anything about that.
9 That's between the two guys.
10 Q I understand that. My question
11 is: Why are these folks from the coalition
12 permitted on the jobsite to do collections,
13 how do they get on the jobsite?
14 A They walk right in.
15 Q Why aren't they stopped?
16 A By who?
17 Q I don't know. Is there no
18 security?
19 A No, they come walking in, put
20 hardhats on, and nobody could tell. They
21 usually have spotters; from what I heard,
22 they have spotters. I don't hire them. I'm
23 looking for a carpenter, if it will make
24 peace where they don't come back every week,
25 and harass this one and that one, when that
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2 isn't done, then I put them on.
3 Q That's the fact question that I'm
4 working on as one of the issues here. First
5 of all, are they, either by their conduct or
6 their words, saying to you, that if you don't
7 put on someone, that you will have problems
8 on your jobsite?
9 A New Era came there and said
10 something to that effect: I'm not leaving
11 until this is resolved, we'll shut the job
12 down. As far as going up, since I have been
13 a foreman, nobody ever came up and harassed
14 the guys, but they could come up with gangs
15 and have spotters all around the block,
16 looking for cops. If somebody calls the
17 cops, by the time the cops come, they are out
18 of there.
19 Q Who was it from New Era that said
20 to you that he was going to stay until you
21 put someone on?
22 A I don't even know. They come and
23 hand you the cards; they don't tell you their
24 names.
25 Q What about P&D, why did you put
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1 Jean-Philippe Cassagnau 64
2 someone on from P&D?
3 A I don't know how they came onto
4 the job, just was told that Augustine was
5 from P&D. Augustine came to the job one day
6 and said who he was from, to me it meant
7 nothing. He would go out, make a phone call
8 and came back the next time or two days
9 later, after he spoke to my super, said put
10 him on.
11 Q Who made the decision to put on
12 Augustine Thomas; you or Mr. Dorcheck?
13 A I believe it was Freddie
14 Dorcheck. Maybe they called him.
15 Q That will be one of the subjects
16 of my conversation with Mr. Dorcheck. Again,
17 it is not a question of fault, it is a
18 question of figuring out what happened. It
19 is my job to assess the significance of it.
20 With respect to Calvert Williams,
21 was it also Mr. Dorcheck who told you to put
22 Mr. Williams on?
23 A Calvert, these guys, came from
24 New Era, told me we are not leaving until
25 somebody gets put on.
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1 Jean-Philippe Cassagnau 65
2 Q What did you say?
3 A I told him, get me a guy.
4 Q What you can say, and you can
5 pass this on to Mr. Dorcheck, that any time a
6 coalition person threatens an action in your
7 presence, you have an obligation to report it
8 to the Independent Investigator. And that
9 any time that there is an effort, and that, I
10 would say, at least in my mind, is an implied
11 threat that they will stay or we'll make
12 trouble or do whatever coalitions do, if that
13 is given in your presence, you have no choice
14 but to report the matter to me. Okay? That
15 may help you. I don't think it will hurt
16 you, but it is a reporting obligation. All
17 right? There are those in the law
18 enforcement community who might consider that
19 extortion or a criminal act.
20 A It is crystal clear it's
21 extortion. But by the time everybody is
22 there, they gang-bang us, by the time
23 somebody gets there, they are gone, out of
24 sight. They can regroup before you can get
25 them.
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2 Q Those are issues to think about.
3 Sometimes it can be of value that they are
4 present, and what are implied extortionate
5 efforts have to be reported to the Federal
6 Court.
7 A Okay. As far as hiring these
8 guys, I mean, there's nothing stating that
9 you can't hire any of these guys, there's
10 nothing in the laws telling me I can't; if
11 there's something in the laws stating they
12 cannot be a union member while affiliated
13 with the organization trying to cause
14 conflict. As far as Prince being questioned
15 about these, maybe the workers should be
16 thrown out of the union, because we have it
17 in our constitution not to belong to any of
18 these organizations, they belong to, and it
19 is clear.
20 As a black guy joining the union,
21 they can sit on a list for two years and get
22 nowhere; as far as being black, nobody wants
23 to hire. The Irish are going to send the
24 Irish out, the Italians will send the
25 Italians out, maybe. That's how it work.
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2 Q Those are comments and criticisms
3 that the judge needs to hear, in assessing
4 how things work. At the same time, when you
5 have an implied threat to the foreman that
6 unless you put on someone, who you don't
7 really know --
8 A Physically threatened me, he
9 didn't. He said we are not leaving until we
10 get this straightened out. So I said, I'll
11