UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
-------------------------------------------x
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
90 CIV 5722
-against- (CSH)
DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED
BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND
JOINERS OF AMERICA, et.al.,
Defendants.
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Independent Investigator Interview
May 24, 2005
9:00 o'clock a.m.
CONTINUED INTERVIEW OF JOSEPH FIRTH
by Walter Mack, Esq., the Independent
Investigator, at the offices of Doar, Rieck &
Mack, Esqs., 217 Broadway, 7th Floor, New York,
New York 10007-2911, before Stewart Nissenbaum, a
Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public of the State
of New York.
TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
305 Madison Avenue 142 Willis Avenue
Suite 449 P.O. BOX 347
New York, N.Y. 10165 Mineola, N.Y. 11501
(212)349-9692 (516)741-5235
A P P E A R A N C E S :
DOAR RIECK & MACK, ESQS.
217 Broadway, 7th Floor
New York, New York 10007-2911
BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.
DIENST & SERRINS, LLP
Attorneys for Joseph Firth
233 Broadway, 18th Floor
New York, New York 10279
BY: RICHARD DIENST, ESQ.
ALSO PRESENT:
Donald Sobocienski
* * *
133
1
2 J O S E P H F I R T H , was asked the
3 following questions and gave the following
4 answers:
5 MR. MACK: On the record.
6 BY MR. MACK:
7 Q What I would like -- I'm not
8 going to bother you -- and I appreciate your
9 coming back -- and I'm not going through all
10 the warnings again.
11 Let me also say, if there's
12 anything that you said last time that you
13 would like to change or add to or subtract
14 from, and we just had a little discussion off
15 the record about certain things, just let me
16 know.
17 As I said to you, my purpose here
18 is to gather as many facts as possible to put
19 them in context and to hear from you, your
20 side, so I can make a judgment as to what I
21 think those facts are.
22 If there's something you didn't
23 say last time that you think needs to be said
24 based upon either reflection or something you
25 found out since you were here last, fire
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2 away; I'm glad to hear it. I will be glad to
3 hear anything you have to add or subtract
4 from the last time you were here.
5 This transcript, in addition to
6 being read by you, I've told you I'm going to
7 refer the matter of Silo Construction, to the
8 prosecutor for review, so it is going to be
9 read by a prosecutor, and probably going to
10 be read by Judge Haight or one of his clerks,
11 at some time.
12 I have no ability to predict the
13 conduct or reaction of either. But my view
14 is, if there's something that either of those
15 independent forces should hear or read, I
16 invite you to fire away. I mean, I invite
17 you to speak your mind. I'm not trying to
18 deter you from voicing your opinion or advice
19 on any subjects.
20 Anything you would like to add or
21 subtract from what you said last time?
22 A No, not concerning that job.
23 Q "That job," we are talking about
24 the West 96th Street Silo job?
25 A Yes.
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2 Q One of the things that came out
3 last time, and just going from memory here,
4 was the fact that, at some time, you had
5 determined that a prior Silo job in the
6 Bronx, there was something wrong with it,
7 that basically Okeefe had worked there at one
8 time before, I think is what you said;
9 something like that.
10 A I looked up his work history
11 after this whole scenario with Okeefe, and I
12 found out he worked in the Bronx.
13 Q What did that lead you to
14 believe, again?
15 A That he was in bed with these
16 guys.
17 Q What does that mean? Meaning
18 that they wanted him to be present at another
19 site?
20 A That's what it looks like.
21 Q I want to make sure. Other than
22 what you said, do you have or have you had
23 any other experience with Silo Construction
24 or anybody who works for Silo Construction,
25 or is part of Silo Construction, beyond what
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2 you told me last time?
3 A No.
4 Q One of the things I asked you to
5 think about was whether Peter Scalia was the
6 guy who you got back into the union, or
7 insisted on?
8 A No, I looked that up. The
9 gentleman I got back into the union, after he
10 got his card, he -- I don't know what
11 happened, he didn't work there anymore.
12 Q Who was that person?
13 A I can't remember his name. He
14 wasn't on any of the sheets; I looked up the
15 guys on the sheet; McCrory.
16 Q What's on the sheets furnished to
17 you last time?
18 A None of them was reinitiated at
19 that time on the job, so I can't pinpoint who
20 that guy was; I know the face, but I can't
21 pinpoint.
22 Q Was he a person connected with
23 Silo Construction?
24 A He was up there, like, a super
25 with Silo.
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2 Q Do you think that may have been
3 Mr. Gotti?
4 A No. I don't think so. He's got
5 a mustache. I don't know what Mr. Gotti
6 looks like.
7 Q I'm trying to figure out --
8 A His name isn't Gotti, anyway.
9 Q I'm trying to find what his name
10 was. I'm trying to find out who that person
11 was.
12 A I had run into him a few months
13 before that, we had a picket line down here,
14 in the West Village, and that was the first
15 time I had ran into him; he was like a super
16 then, too.
17 Q I think I can figure out who it
18 is, but I'm more interested in --
19 MR. DIENST: You can give him a
20 name.
21 A Okeefe probably told you.
22 Q He did.
23 A I don't know. Is it Pete?
24 I think it is Pete Scalia.
25 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: It is not
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2 Joseph Foster, that's not a name you
3 recall?
4 MR. FIRTH: No.
5 Q Don wants to ask you a couple of
6 questions about Silo, and then I'm going to
7 pick up on 455.
8 A What does JBF stand for?
9 Q We were hoping you can tell us.
10 It is your recollection.
11 A I was thinking over the weekend.
12 I don't know.
13 Q One of the things you did mention
14 to me this morning, is that you made an
15 effort to see whether there were any
16 documents that could be relevant to my
17 inquiry concerning Silo Construction and the
18 Prince job at 455. If I understand you
19 correctly, there are documents, but you left
20 them home this morning; is that correct?
21 A Yes. Yes.
22 Q Those are very important to me.
23 What we have agreed to do, that either you
24 will fax or arrange in some way through your
25 counsel, which is fine with me, to give me --
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2 deliver to me, legible copies of what you
3 found, recognizing I'm a document freak;
4 meaning every document that pertains to the
5 relevant subject matter, is important to
6 know; and I think it is important to you.
7 And then I will review those, and
8 if it turns out that a question is raised in
9 my mind, based upon what's the contents of
10 the records, I will talk to Mr. Dienst and we
11 will arrange to address those issues if at
12 all possible; and I will endeavor to do so by
13 telephone so I don't have to take you away
14 from your duties any more than I have
15 already.
16 Is that fair enough?
17 MR. DIENST: Are you going to be
18 out of the country next week, starting
19 tomorrow?
20 MR. FIRTH: Until Tuesday.
21 Q I told Mr. Dienst, given your
22 testimony, it's important to me to speak to
23 Mr. Greaney, so there will be an additional
24 visit by John sometime in the future; and
25 Mr. Dienst is going to determine whether he
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2 represents him.
3 MR. DIENST: When you contact him
4 to invite him to come down, he will make
5 a determination, I'm sure, as to who his
6 counsel is going to be. But I don't
7 think he's going to jump the gun before
8 you give him an invitation.
9 MR. MACK: I'll give him a
10 personal invitation so it is not a
11 surprise to him.
12 I would point out that I have
13 heard that there's been a lack of
14 uniformity in document destruction
15 policies at Local 608, and whether it is
16 you, and I'll mention this to John, they
17 should be reviewed, because there are
18 statutory obligations for the
19 maintenance of records concerning jobs,
20 that it would be imprudent to be
21 destroying them after a year or a period
22 even close to that.
23 And the unfortunate thing, as we
24 attorneys know, documents are often the
25 best evidence, they speak for
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2 themselves, and basically to remove the
3 opportunity to refer to documents that
4 are one year old, two years old, the
5 Criminal Statute of Limitations is five
6 years. So, I mean, I think Department
7 of Labor obligations with respect to
8 work records is seven years. It's in
9 the statute; I can find it.
10 It is very imprudent for a
11 business agent, especially in light of
12 what has been a clear direction that
13 maintenance of records are very
14 important to demonstrate conformance and
15 activity at jobsites, to destroy those
16 records after a time less than --
17 certainly the Criminal Statute, and I
18 would suggest the Labor record
19 standards. Whoever is responsible for
20 608's record retention policy, whether
21 it is you or Dick or someone else.
22 MR. DIENST: I want to make the
23 record clear. I only represent
24 individuals, I do not represent 608. I
25 don't have that privilege. But should
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2 it come, during the course of anybody
3 questioning me or asking me from 608
4 about that, I'll certainly convey that
5 information.
6 The record should be clear,
7 though, that I have no connection,
8 professionally or personally, with 608.
9 MR. MACK: I'll make a point to
10 Mr. Greaney today, that whoever is
11 counsel, and I understand what Mr.
12 Dienst is saying, is extremely important
13 for a record retention policy, that, you
14 know, is one that's going to be accepted
15 by the overseers; and it actually is a
16 way to protect the business agents and
17 shop stewards, and other people, because
18 you have the records to document what's
19 occurred.
20 Q Where we sit at the moment is
21 that I will get, Joe, your documents that
22 concern 455, and then I will endeavor to -- I
23 will be able to succeed in doing so, avoiding
24 you having to spend more time down here. I
25 appreciate that.
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2 MR. DIENST: If it's necessary,
3 he will cooperate.
4 MR. MACK: I understand that. I
5 appreciate his time in doing so.
6 Q But there are no records, further
7 records, and they are meager as they are,
8 about Silo Construction or the West 96th
9 Street, 323 West 96th Street job; we have
10 shop steward reports, and that's it.
11 MR. MACK: Let me ask Chief
12 Sobocienski who had a couple of further
13 questions about that jobsite, to take it
14 a way.
15 A One thing. There was another
16 company up there; you know that?
17 Q Yes. I'm always willing to know
18 more, but I have been told that there were
19 other --
20 A Golden Vale. And after Silo
21 left, Techwood and On Par.
22 Q You've told me that, but, I mean,
23 my feeling is, if 608 or Joe Firth have
24 records concerning any contractors on that
25 jobsite, you know, I've asked for them, and I
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2 would like to get them.
3 Now, whether they are -- Silo has
4 been my focus, but there are certainly
5 allegations about other contractors being
6 there. I haven't been able to get shop
7 steward reports. We are going to redo it
8 again.
9 MR. MACK: On Par, we haven't
10 tried for?
11 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Correct.
12 Q We are looking for every shop
13 steward report that has anything to do with
14 this 323 West 96th Street. If there's any
15 other record that concerns this jobsite,
16 including, as I say, there were safety
17 violations, there's a whole regulatory record
18 about the site, that, you know, we haven't
19 been able to find any records within the
20 District Council that concern it.
21 I believe you told me, jobs get
22 shut down for injuries and stuff like that,
23 all the time, and all that; but at the same
24 time, it was a jobsite that received some
25 regulatory oversight. If there are 608
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2 records that concern it, we've asked for
3 them, whether they concern Silo, Golden Vale,
4 or whoever else.
5 A Mr. Okeefe never reported to me
6 about any jobsite violations or jobs being
7 shut down. I would ask him: Is everything
8 all right on the job? And he would tell me
9 everything is fine.
10 MR. DIENST: If he testified
11 differently to Mr. Mack or anybody else,
12 would those statements be true?
13 MR. FIRTH: My statements are
14 truthful.
15 Q Again, you're not under oath
16 here, but, basically, you have an obligation
17 to tell me. I'm trying to get to the bottom
18 of this, and I don't want anybody to say that
19 I haven't given almost all the players --
20 nobody is going to come in and want to talk
21 to me that's involved here.
22 MR. DIENST: Basically, what
23 Mr. Firth is saying to you, is that if
24 Okeefe, in sum or in substance, told you
25 that he notified Joe Firth as to what
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2 was going on at that jobsite, he is
3 lying to you.
4 MR. MACK: I understand.
5 MR. DIENST: I want that patently
6 clear without any fancy lawyer language.
7 He lied to you.
8 MR. MACK: I respect that
9 opinion, but, you know, there is going
10 to be one that will receive scrutiny as
11 to what happened. As I say, in the best
12 of all worlds, the investigative work
13 that I did as a result of Mr. OKeefe's
14 Complete Construction interaction, which
15 really was my introduction to Mr.
16 Okeefe, I wish it had been done by the
17 District Council at the time period in
18 which --
19 MR. DIENST: What Mr. Firth is
20 saying, he is not saying he lied to you
21 about everything. What he is saying is
22 he lied to you about his notifying Joe
23 Firth about problems at that jobsite.
24 He is saying just the opposite. Joe is
25 saying to you, in your capacity as a
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2 representative of the Government and of
3 the Court, that that never happened, and
4 that it is a lie if he said that it did
5 happen. So that is patently clear.
6 MR. MACK: I understand your
7 position.
8 So, as I say, I understand your
9 views of that subject, and my feeling is
10 that in the best of all worlds, and I
11 hope going forward in my absence with a
12 new II, if a shop steward comes down to
13 you and you don't go to the site, you
14 have a record saying, you know,
15 basically I had discussions with or I
16 met with shop steward so-and-so and he
17 told me there were no problems, and --
18 or there's a sign-off on his sheet,
19 basically reflecting the shop steward
20 report is accurate or what have you.
21 MR. DIENST: That wasn't the
22 policy and procedure at that point in
23 time? Whatever changes will be made,
24 will be subject to your recommendations
25 and how it works in practicality.
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2 MR. MACK: This, at the very
3 least, I think, shall we say, will have
4 some educational value by the time it is
5 through with.
6 Again, I'm just an investigator.
7 In a sense I'm just a messenger. Those
8 people who can resolve the conflicts and
9 issues, will have more authority that I
10 have, to do that.
11 MR. DIENST: These are
12 hardworking blue collar guys; they are
13 not lawyers, they don't write everything
14 down.
15 MR. MACK: We can discuss that at
16 some length, but there comes a point,
17 you know, where writing some things
18 down, or finding methodology is do so,
19 is.
20 BY MR. SOBOCIENSKI:
21 Q What is curious to me, as I look
22 at the dispatches from the jobsite, on these
23 two occasions you did dispatch people from
24 the out-of-work list, but they never made it
25 to the jobsite, at least on the records. I
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2 would like you to go back, to see if you have
3 any recollection. This is JF-24.
4 A Can I see the dispatches?
5 Q That's JF-25. If you open JF-25
6 to January 10th, there's a dispatch, a pure
7 dispatch, which is a request of one Thomas
8 O'Neill by you, about your requesting a
9 journeyman to that jobsite; and Thomas
10 O'Neill is the one selected, with the skills
11 of drywall and framing. If you go to the
12 corresponding steward report, you see he
13 doesn't make the steward report.
14 So I'm asking you your
15 recollection, I mean, maybe you were trying
16 to make a match?
17 A Is there any grievance on this
18 job?
19 Q Not that we are aware of. That
20 doesn't mean --
21 A He may not have showed up,
22 either. I'm trying to think, do I know this
23 guy, what kind of guy he is. A lot of guys
24 don't show up. I don't remember him.
25 Q Would it be policy, though, if a
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2 gentleman doesn't show up, in the next shop
3 steward report, to send yet another man? How
4 would that work?
5 A At that time, -- is that the only
6 one that that happened on?
7 Q No, actually, I guess, I'm
8 assuming that after Okeefe is replaced --
9 A I sent stewards?
10 Q A steward --
11 A Is that the only one I sent, the
12 regular guy, not a UBC steward?
13 Q Ask that again.
14 A The ones after this one, they
15 were all stewards, that was probably to
16 replace Mr. Okeefe. Thomas O'Neill is a
17 regular dispatch, not a steward.
18 Q You sent three journeymen, and
19 none of them made it to the shop steward
20 report, either.
21 A Who was the shop steward at that
22 time? Richie Torres?
23 Q It is before Torres.
24 A Vincent Sporza?
25 Q Correct.
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2 A Vincent Sporza was sent on the
3 30th. Is there any sheets on Vincent Sporza?
4 Q No. We are moving too fast.
5 Let's go to Vincent Sporza's dispatch, and
6 along with three other journeymen on
7 September 30th, Anthony Lang -- sorry, two
8 others journeymen, Lee Jones; and if you go
9 to correspondence --
10 A There could be a lot of
11 scenarios. They may not have been on the
12 jobsite. I'm just thinking. Because it was
13 September 30th, 2002. Is that a Friday?
14 Q Look at the shop steward report.
15 I think it's second from the back.
16 A I think we didn't send Torres up
17 until the 3rd. I can't be definite with this
18 answer, but I think Okeefe was up there,
19 turning guys away, saying that he was still
20 the steward.
21 Q He may turn the steward away; is
22 he going to turn away two journeymen that
23 come, as well?
24 A Yeah. I can't, I don't know what
25 happened there. I don't know what happened.
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2 Guys might have went there. There's all
3 kinds of scenarios that could happen. I
4 don't remember from -- this is 2001; right?
5 It is the end of 2001?
6 Q September 30th, 2002.
7 A 2002?
8 Q Correct.
9 A Okay. I don't remember. Back
10 then, I was dealing with uptown, downtown; I
11 was dealing with a lot. I ain't going to
12 speculate, because I may give a wrong answer;
13 that's the God's honest truth.
14 Q It is fair to say that, as you go
15 through the shop steward reports, if a man
16 doesn't show up, you dispatch another?
17 A Well, like I said, at that time,
18 if I'm covering uptown, downtown, I could
19 have been doing six jobs at one time. That's
20 where I need the help of a good shop steward,
21 too, you know. I might not have picked up on
22 it. I really can't give you much more than
23 that.
24 Q My curiosity was, because you
25 were dispatching people to the jobsite but
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2 they weren't making it to work at that site.
3 A I don't know.
4 MR. DIENST: Can you tell me what
5 the significance of that is?
6 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: I don't know.
7 Maybe they wouldn't put them on because
8 they are coming directly from the list.
9 I have no idea.
10 A If I were you, I would ask Peter
11 Okeefe, see if he remembers them coming up
12 there. I deal with hundreds of guys a week,
13 you know, and back then, I had a lot of area.
14 I can't give a definite answer.
15 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Okay. Just
16 needed to find out what the answers
17 were.
18 MR. MACK: Okay.
19 Let's move on to my second
20 favorite jobsite.
21 BY MR. MACK:
22 Q Let me start there, and focus on
23 what is of importance to me.
24 How long have you known John
25 Gaffney?
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2 A At least twenty years.
3 Q How did you come to meet him,
4 what's the basis of your --
5 A First time I ever met him --
6 Q What's the general overview of
7 your relationship?
8 A In the Bronx, we met in a
9 place -- we used to do Gaelic football and
10 hurling together. We were opponents.
11 Q How would you describe your
12 relationship with Mr. Gaffney, let's say in
13 the last five years; how would you -- just as
14 an overview description?
15 A Good friends. We traveled
16 together for six years, from the Poconos to
17 work.
18 Q And would that apply also to
19 other members of your family; in other words,
20 your brothers, with John Gaffney?
21 A My brother Sean met John Gaffney,
22 I would say, and my father, too, I'll put the
23 two of them together, because they were on
24 the same jobsite in the Trade Center; I'm
25 presuming in the late '80s.
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2 Q Would it be fair or unfair to say
3 that there were times when John Gaffney asked
4 you to help him either get work, or assist
5 him on jobsites?
6 A Assist him getting on jobsites?
7 Q Either way.
8 A If he has asked for help? He
9 asked me to come up to jobs, yeah.
10 Q What I'm asking about here is, to
11 your recollection, and I'm going to go pretty
12 quickly to this particular jobsite, but in
13 the general situation, has he ever asked you
14 to help him get a particular job?
15 A No.
16 Q Have you ever, in your mind, put
17 it that way, taken any action which you
18 believed would assist him in getting to a
19 jobsite?
20 A No.
21 Q I'm going to work on 455 CPW.
22 Circumstantially, the documents and what
23 happened are very circumstantially supportive
24 of a view that you did assist him. I'm going
25 to ask you about the documents and show them
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2 to you. I'm looking for your explanation
3 about what happened.
4 Do you have any recollection now,
5 about how John got to work for Prince
6 Carpenter at 455?
7 A Jerry Burder was on that job, he
8 was with LaQuilla. I think I talked to
9 Freddie on the phone, and he was telling me a
10 certain start date. And then I got a phone
11 call from Jerry Burder, I think, telling me
12 they were up there with four men.
13 So then I said, fuck Freddie,
14 fuck that shit, and sent up the steward. I
15 remember telling, putting on -- the shop
16 steward called me right away, I put, because
17 I didn't want to hear any bullshit, a guy
18 going up -- I wanted to warn him before he
19 went up there what's going on; that we
20 weren't starting off right, up there.
21 Q Did you know that John Gaffney
22 was on a hold-call situation?
23 A What do you mean, a hold-call?
24 Q Meaning that he had placed a
25 request to the out-of-work list that his
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2 calls be held; in other words, that he not be
3 called for a specific job.
4 A Froze his name?
5 Q Yes.
6 A I probably did. He does it a
7 lot, or he used to do it a lot.
8 Q Right.
9 A I think he still does it a lot.
10 Q The question is, were you aware,
11 in other words, that's the timing, I'm trying
12 to figure out whether -- I want to get your
13 recollection first, and then we'll look at
14 the documents and see what they reflect.
15 As we talked last time, Mr.
16 Dienst has seen these documents to some
17 extent here, but basically, why don't you
18 describe for me, as you recall, the sequence
19 of events which resulted in John's -- John
20 Gaffney's assignment to 455 Central Park
21 West?
22 A I don't know what you mean by
23 that. He got called from the Council and
24 went to the job.
25 Q I'm only talking about your
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2 recollection. Let me just state what I think
3 you just told me. That Freddie Dorschug from
4 Prince, when would you say he first told you
5 Prince would have a job at 455 Central Park
6 West?
7 A I don't know what date it was.
8 I'm sure Freddie called me and said he had
9 something; where he used to call me quite a
10 bit and tell me he was starting jobs, now he
11 never calls me.
12 Q Do you think he did or didn't
13 call you or tell you?
14 A He told me he had the job. I
15 knew before it started that he had that job.
16 Q The question is, if you're able
17 to estimate, approximately -- just to help
18 you with the dates here, Mr. Gaffney is
19 dispatched to the jobsite on January 22nd,
20 2003.
21 A Okay.
22 Q All right. That gives you a time
23 frame. All right. So, if that's the date,
24 when would you estimate that Fred from Prince
25 told you that there was going to be a Prince
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2 job at 455?
3 A I don't know.
4 Q Was it that day?
5 A No. It would have been at least
6 a few days before. Or maybe a week.
7 Q Okay. Could it be two weeks;
8 would that be within the realm?
9 A I don't know.
10 Q Certainly before, to some extent?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Based upon your experience, does
13 Fred from Prince specify what skills he wants
14 the shop steward to have?
15 A No, never to me; at that job,
16 anyway.
17 Q In terms of his mind, I've spent
18 a lot of time with Fred, and does he -- what
19 does he expect; what skills, in your mind,
20 does Fred expect his shop stewards to arrive
21 with?
22 A Basically, he's drywall, framing;
23 he could do layout. That's a new building,
24 protection; that building, you know, if you
25 don't know it --
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2 Q Don knows it.
3 A It was an existing old building,
4 like a castle, they gutted -- it was
5 beautiful architecture. Bovis was up there,
6 I used to check the area. Then there was a
7 brand new building behind it. It went from a
8 brand new high-rise to an old, you know,
9 slower architectural building. And it was
10 very unsafe because they ripped out all
11 floors, just left the shell, but steel beams
12 in the middle of it. It was wild how they
13 kept it intact. Protection, layout, drywall,
14 framing. They ripped out all the floors, put
15 new floors in, wood framing.
16 Q Did you have a discussion with
17 Fred prior to the assignment of the shop
18 steward, about what skills Fred wanted the
19 shop steward to have on that site?
20 A I don't think so. I think he
21 might have left that up to me.
22 Q Now, prior to the dispatch of
23 John Gaffney to that jobsite, had it ever
24 come to your knowledge that at least there
25 were contractors who might have been critical
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2 of Mr. Gaffney's performance?
3 A Repeat that again.
4 Q Sure. Again, I'm talking prior
5 to John Gaffney's dispatch to 455, in other
6 words, prior to January 22nd, 2003, had it
7 ever come to your knowledge as a friend of
8 his or in your capacity as business agent,
9 that there were contractors, I'm not -- I'm
10 talking contractors, who felt that John
11 Gaffney did not honor his obligations, or
12 acted in some way inappropriately on their
13 jobsites?
14 A I can't say about acting
15 inappropriately; but did he have words with
16 contractors? Most definitely.
17 Q Did you ever, and this is all
18 January, prior to January 22nd, 2003, did you
19 yourself, in your capacity as a business
20 agents, ever make any assessment as to
21 whether John Gaffney was maybe on the edge,
22 or wrong in some of his conduct on jobsites?
23 A I've worked with John on
24 jobsites. He can get very stubborn, one way,
25 stubborn.
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2 Q Help me out. What does that
3 mean?
4 MR. DIENST: Why don't you
5 describe Gaffney's background as you
6 know it, where he came from and what his
7 style is, because he may have even
8 offended Mr. Mack in terms of his style.
9 A I knew he was coming in to see
10 you; I knew he was going to rub you the wrong
11 way.
12 Q If you don't mind, tell me the
13 truth.
14 A His mannerisms. It takes a while
15 for John to grow on you.
16 Q I want to hear about it.
17 A He grew up in Northern Ireland,
18 on the border there, and he's not an open,
19 friendly person. He has a wall up all the
20 time, and he seems to take some things too
21 personal sometimes, especially if
22 contractors -- he believes in his -- the
23 union ways, and strictly by the union way.
24 Sometimes you have to bend a little bit for
25 conditions on the jobsite. He doesn't see
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2 the bigger picture; he sees ten feet in front
3 of him; that's it. He is not a bad guy; he's
4 not a bad guy at all.
5 Q I'm sure he is a very nice guy.
6 My issues tend to be, if you say you're seven
7 hours on a jobsite, and you are not, that's a
8 pretty black and white thing. If it's six
9 hours, 50 minutes, I am flexible. If you're
10 not there and write down in your report
11 you're there, that's an easy one for me.
12 Am I wrong in that assessment;
13 and if so, what would be your side of it?
14 A No. The guy should be there,
15 because, first of all, you don't give the
16 company anything to throw back in your face,
17 because it weakens your position with the
18 men. You know, a few minutes here, a few
19 minutes there. You guys do the same thing,
20 probably, you know.
21 Q Mr. Dienst and I were here this
22 morning right on time.
23 A No, I agree with you. I was a
24 shop steward, I think three times in my whole
25 life, and I would never give a company
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2 something to throw back at me.
3 Q I'm not so sure that you and I
4 would disagree on some of the assessments
5 that I have made here in the course of this
6 inquiry. Let's keep going on here.
7 Do you recall, this is all prior
8 to 455, any situation in which John Gaffney
9 and the contractor had had a disagreement,
10 whether it was because of his personal style
11 or because, you know, there was some
12 realistic dispute that had to be resolved?
13 A I'm going to say yes, but then
14 you're going to ask me what contractor. I
15 can't. But I know I've had to smooth things
16 out a couple of times.
17 Q Do you recall anything about
18 those situations that you can tell me about?
19 A I'm trying to think.
20 Q All right, take a moment.
21 A If you have something to remind
22 me; remind me.
23 Q My feeling is, that I'm asking
24 these historical questions, and I really --
25 my feeling is, I'm really going to focus on
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2 455.
3 A I can't tell you any situation;
4 there's been a few.
5 Q There have been a few?
6 A Yeah, but not, I think, major,
7 you know, personality conflicts, which
8 happens on jobsites.
9 Q Basically, do you remember any
10 details of a conflict in which the issue
11 or -- you tell me the issue, John felt they
12 were using laborers to do carpentry work?
13 A It could be numerous situations.
14 I'm not going to pinpoint anything.
15 Q That's because you can't remember
16 it?
17 A No.
18 Q Do you recall any situation in
19 which Fred Dorschug, Freddie from Prince, had
20 had problems with John Gaffney before 455,
21 before?
22 A Now I know where you're going.
23 John always talked about, I think it was in
24 the early '80s, where he worked for Prince
25 Carpentry, and he got laid off on St.
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2 Patrick's Day. And that never sat well with
3 him.
4 MR. DIENST: Describe why, so the
5 record is clear.
6 A There's a few reasons. First of
7 all, Prince are about two notches under R&J,
8 as people to work for where they take
9 advantage of carpenters.
10 Q I want you to tell me what you
11 mean by that.
12 A The way they treat the men. I
13 mean, --
14 Q Spell it out for me, Joe.
15 A They treat you like you are a
16 piece of garbage, most of the foremen; not
17 all of them, most of them.
18 Q What does that mean?
19 A The way they talk to you, they
20 talk down to you. All kinds of stuff. They
21 will try to work you through your morning
22 break. Just the way they just personally
23 talk to somebody. Safety. Run, run, run,
24 run. It is like cracking the whip on
25 somebody.
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2 Q Are there any particular foremen
3 you would single out at Prince, being
4 particularly abusive, in your opinion?
5 A I can't say that. You know why?
6 I never particularly worked for any of them
7 foremen, I don't think.
8 Q For instance, do you recall any
9 time in which John Gaffney, any time,
10 complained to you about a Prince foreman?
11 A At 445 Central Park West, yes.
12 Q Let's save that.
13 A Beforehand?
14 Q Beforehand?
15 A No.
16 Q Now, if I heard what you told me,
17 he -- why did you direct immediate dispatch
18 to the 455 Central Park West location?
19 A Jerry Burder called me, and he
20 said there were four men up there.
21 Q This call by Jerry Burder, is it
22 possible that the documentation of this call
23 is in one of your records on the kitchen
24 table? In other words --
25 A No. Because -- no. It would
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2 have been at least two years ago; am I right?
3 Q January 22nd, 2003.
4 A Yeah, two years ago. No, I
5 don't have it.
6 Q Is that because --
7 A If I received a phone call like
8 that, I would have documented it.
9 Q Just go through it for me.
10 Although I think I understand it, there's
11 going to be a prosecutor, probably, I don't
12 know who, and probably the judge, reading
13 this transcript.
14 Explain to me why on a job that
15 Prince had told you about, let's say a week
16 before, or sometime before, you can't recall
17 exactly, why you decided to do an immediate
18 dispatch; spell it out in detail.
19 A Because there were men up there
20 that day, and I didn't think they were going
21 to be there until a few days later; and
22 Freddie was trying to get a jump on this for
23 a couple of days, beat us a couple of days
24 without a shop steward, which is common.
25 Q Now, if I were to tell you that
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2 the evidence, at least submitted by Prince on
3 this subject, is that they routinely notify
4 608 of when jobs are to start, and notify 608
5 several days before they need a shop steward,
6 your response to that would be what?
7 A Sometimes they do, and sometimes
8 they don't.
9 Q In this case, do you believe, is
10 it your opinion Fred Dorschug had four
11 carpenters working up there before he had
12 told 608 that there was a shop steward
13 needed?
14 A Yeah, yeah. There were men there
15 before the time he wanted the shop steward
16 there.
17 Q In your view, and again I don't
18 want to put words in your mouth, Prince had
19 violated their obligation to 608 by putting
20 carpenters to work, four carpenters to work?
21 A Presuming it was four.
22 Q I'm going there. In other words,
23 putting carpenters to work before the start
24 date that he had indicated to 608?
25 A Yes. And his answer probably
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2 would have been, which comes up a lot, there
3 was an emergency, the GC called for
4 protection.
5 Q If that occurred, what would you
6 have expected Prince to do?
7 A Let's say --
8 Q I know Prince's side; I want to
9 have 608's side with clarity. If that were
10 true, there was an emergency or something
11 that required immediate carpenters on the
12 site, which I guess would have all had to be
13 company men, anyway, right? So the question
14 is: What should Prince have done if that was
15 true?
16 A Should have just called up and
17 said, I got an emergency up there, I got to
18 send some guys up there.
19 Q And you would have sent --
20 A If it was for the day, no
21 problem; but he didn't do that. And then his
22 usual answer is, I forgot, you're right, I
23 forgot.
24 Q In this situation, it is my
25 understanding that you're telling me that the
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2 reason there was an immediate dispatch to
3 455, was because Jerry Burder informed you
4 Prince had four carpenters up there without a
5 steward?
6 A Yes, I think that's the reason.
7 Q Do you recall what these
8 carpenters were doing, in the words of Jerry
9 Burder? Were they doing protection, what
10 were they doing up there, if you know?
11 A I don't remember.
12 Q When the first time you went to
13 455 CPW; was it before or after the dispatch,
14 this immediate dispatch?
15 A I was up there a couple of times
16 before that to see Jerry Burder. He was with
17 LaQuilla Construction.
18 Q Did you contact John Gaffney at
19 all about 455, before he was dispatched
20 there?
21 A In regard to the job?
22 Q With regard to the job or with
23 regard to anything concerning his work.
24 A I talked to John a lot, on and
25 off.
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2 Q How frequently would you talk to
3 John, in that period, late --
4 A I can't answer that. Let me see,
5 was he still living in the Poconos then?
6 Q Yes.
7 A I think he was. And I moved out
8 of there -- because he was looking for a
9 house by me in Glen Rock, too, so we were in
10 contact a lot. I talk to John a lot. I know
11 his kids, his wife is from the Bronx. You
12 know, I'm not going to hide it, I know John
13 very well.
14 Q I guess all I'm trying to figure
15 out is whether or not you talked to him at
16 all about this job.
17 A I talk to John a lot. A couple
18 of times a week. Then we played soccer
19 together in the Poconos. We have a lot of
20 things in common.
21 Q I guess what I'm trying to
22 discover is whether you ever talked to him
23 about this job. Maybe yes, maybe no?
24 A Maybe yes, maybe no. I talk to
25 him. If it's not work, it is football. He
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2 helped me get tickets one time for my father
3 for a game in Ireland, because he's from up
4 north, he was able to get them easier.
5 Q Nothing wrong with being good
6 friends. Where I get an interest is trying
7 to figure out what the conflux of events is,
8 that leads to job assignments to this site.
9 That's what I'm trying to figure out.
10 Do you have a recollection of
11 discussing the skills that would be
12 appropriate for this jobsite, with John
13 Gaffney?
14 A No.
15 Q Do you have any knowledge,
16 yourself, about why John Gaffney took his
17 hold-calls off just before this dispatch?
18 A Unfroze his name? How long was
19 he frozen for?
20 Q Supposed to be thirty days.
21 A Yeah, but none of them freeze
22 their name for thirty days.
23 Q It came off just before the
24 dispatch.
25 A That morning?
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2 Q Yes.
3 A I don't know.
4 Q Can you tell me why that
5 occurred, I think it is three days before, to
6 tell you the truth. Like the weekend, and
7 he's dispatched the next workday.
8 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Two days.
9 Q Two days.
10 A It wasn't taken off a couple of
11 minutes before it went in?
12 Q Wasn't a couple of minutes. You
13 can argue either side of this. My feeling
14 is, all I'm interested in --
15 A Not over this.
16 Q I'm trying the figure out whether
17 you have any knowledge that would assist me
18 in figuring this puzzle out.
19 A Right now, no. I presume we are
20 going further. Maybe I can help you if you
21 show me more evidence.
22 Q Do you have a recollection of
23 talking to Fred Dorschug about getting the
24 right shop steward for the job?
25 A Freddie Dorschug says that all
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2 the time, I need the right guy, the right
3 guy. As I am in my position, I say, yeah,
4 yeah, yeah, okay, Freddie, whatever you want.
5 Okay? That's it.
6 Freddie Dorschug would sell his
7 mother for a penny. So I just -- I yes him:
8 Yes, yes, yes. Just like the problems we had
9 up there at the end of the job with the
10 Grievance and everything, yes. That's it.
11 Q But I mean, did he -- I can
12 understand what you're telling me there; but
13 what I'm asking is, do you recall having a
14 discussion with Fred Dorschug about what
15 skills were necessary for the job?
16 A No.
17 Q Did you yourself make a
18 determination about what skills were
19 necessary for that job?
20 A Yeah.
21 Q Do you recall, without my showing
22 it to you, which I will show it to you, what
23 those skills were?
24 A I seen it anyway. Why I would
25 have done it?
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2 Q Yes.
3 A Drywall, framing, protection, am
4 I right? Layout and wood framing.
5 Q And ceilings?
6 A Really?
7 Q Let me show it to you.
8 A Just regular ceilings.
9 Q JF-28.
10 (Dispatches, CPW, marked Exhibit
11 JF-28.)
12 A Okay. Ceilings. If you notice
13 on a lot of my drywall jobs, I will put, if
14 it's drywall and framing, I put ceilings,
15 too, because most times it is a package, they
16 bid the job drywall and ceilings.
17 Q There are a lot of -- my feeling
18 is this: What is at issue here is the whole
19 sequence of events, resulting in the
20 assignment of John Gaffney to this jobsite.
21 Okay? And there are a lot of things which
22 somebody would argue are coincidence and some
23 would argue are not coincidence.
24 I guess what I'm trying to figure
25 out here is, in terms of these skills, do you
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2 recall discussing the need for these
3 particular skills with Fred Dorschug?
4 A No.
5 Q Do you recall discussing at all
6 with John Gaffney, whether or not any of
7 these skills should be on his, shall we say,
8 qualification or skill list?
9 A No. I'm sure he would have these
10 down, anyway. There's nothing outstanding
11 there.
12 Q In terms of your decisionmaking
13 for this job here, which is -- 455, also
14 106th Street Central Park West, the same
15 jobsite, do you recall what it was, is this
16 what you would call your normal shop steward
17 skill list for a job for Prince?
18 I'll tell you right now, it
19 isn't. I'm trying to figure out why --
20 A Not the wood framing, but I never
21 seen them do a job, like, to an existing
22 building. The wood framing definitely sticks
23 out.
24 Q What I'm asking you is, based
25 upon this document which reflects your
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2 calling in an immediate dispatch with these
3 particular skills, what I'm asking is, does
4 it refresh your recollection what happened,
5 what you were doing?
6 A No. I was in the office.
7 Q You tell me what happened. Do
8 you recall getting -- you tell me, if I have
9 it wrong, it is because I just need to go
10 further. I'm not trying to in any way craft
11 your testimony.
12 Did Jerry Burder call you at the
13 608 office and say words to the effect:
14 Prince has carpenters up there, they need a
15 shop steward right away?
16 A He would say Prince is up here
17 with a couple of guys.
18 Q Is that your recollection of what
19 happened?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Was it right after that call that
22 you called this dispatch in, with these
23 skills?
24 A Right after? I don't know.
25 Doesn't it say what time I put it in at?
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2 Q Look at anything you want there.
3 A This was in the morning?
4 Q 7:25 a.m.
5 A In the morning, yeah.
6 Q Do you have a recollection of
7 what happened this day? In other words, did
8 Jerry Burder call you that morning?
9 A I'm sure he called me.
10 Q Do you think he called you
11 before 7:25 a.m. on this day?
12 A He probably called me about 7:00
13 o'clock when he saw Prince there, because
14 Jerry would be out of -- on the street, and
15 he would notice the men coming in.
16 Q What I'm asking is your
17 recollection. Do you recall receiving a call
18 from Jerry Burder, and shortly thereafter,
19 calling this dispatch in, that very same day?
20 A I remember receiving a phone call
21 from Jerry, and proceeded to dispatch the
22 job.
23 Q That reflects this dispatch,
24 JF-28?
25 A Yeah.
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2 Q In the time period between Jerry
3 Burder's call, you determined to put all of
4 these skills down, is that correct, as
5 appropriate for the shop steward dispatch?
6 A Yeah.
7 Q So protection -- the document
8 speaks for itself. In other words, you
9 determined on that morning, to put these
10 skills down as appropriate for the shop
11 steward?
12 A Yeah, I had been on that job a
13 good few times.
14 Q Can you walk me through your
15 thinking as to why you put these particular
16 skills down?
17 A Protection.
18 Q Starting protection?
19 A Yeah, but on a new job, most of
20 the time you put protection. Wood framing, I
21 told you will they ripped out, left the
22 shell, and put in all new joists.
23 Q They were going to, or had?
24 A No, they were going to.
25 Q Were going to?
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2 A Yes. Prince was doing that.
3 Q You knew the job would require
4 that, is what you're telling me?
5 A Yeah, I had walked in when the
6 stairs was in there, and I thought it was
7 beautiful; and I couldn't believe they were
8 pulling it apart.
9 Drywall.
10 Q What about ceilings?
11 A I'm a drywall, ceiling guy
12 myself. That's basically my meat and
13 potatoes. This goes hand-in-hand. Prince is
14 not known to do ceilings. Drywall, ceilings
15 guy, that's the aspect. Concrete guy,
16 furniture guy, so I put in drywall, ceilings.
17 I don't think ceiling is out of the ordinary
18 there.
19 Q I just want to get your view.
20 Layout, did you think that Fred Dorschug was
21 going to use the shop steward for layout?
22 A Sure.
23 Q Basically --
24 A That's put in on a lot of jobs,
25 layout.
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2 Q Prince jobs?
3 A I don't know. Is it Prince's
4 jobs?
5 Q There's no layout on Prince jobs?
6 A Actually I think when you put in
7 layout now, I don't think we put it in
8 anyway. Because they put slash foreman.
9 Q That's the way it's been, never
10 just layout. I'm trying to get your thinking
11 on the subject. Obviously UBC steward. I'm
12 trying to exhaust your memory of why this
13 dispatch occurred this time with these
14 skills.
15 Is there anything else that you
16 haven't told me about this dispatch with
17 these skills, that would help me get the full
18 picture? Do you remember anything else?
19 That's all I'm asking.
20 A Not at this time.
21 Q Obviously if you remember
22 something, you know, shortly, as soon as I
23 get the transcript, I'm going to probably
24 refer this very promptly. If there's
25 anything further either in your records,
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2 which I don't think you have; I think you
3 told me all records of longer than a year
4 ago, were gone. Is that what you told me?
5 A I have just over a year left.
6 Q Since this is January 2003, well
7 over that, but should you have an additional
8 recollection that would assist me on this
9 dispatch, it would be important to get it to
10 me through Ms. Dienst; okay?
11 A Uh-huh.
12 Q When did you know that John
13 Gaffney was the shop steward who was going to
14 be on this job? Right away?
15 A I don't think so. I think it was
16 that afternoon I got the call, because a lot
17 of times when I put this -- when I write that
18 down --
19 Q What down?
20 A Say I get a job at 12:00 in the
21 afternoon, and it has to start at 4:00, I put
22 in, because I don't want them -- they will
23 wait until 3:00 o'clock. They don't have
24 brains down there. A lot of times I put
25 those little notes on there.
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2 Q That's your telephone?
3 A Yes.
4 Q 917-376-5546?
5 A Yes.
6 Q I see how many jouneypersons. It
7 says one. Does that have significance to
8 you. It says needed, how many
9 journeypersons?
10 A One.
11 Q You weren't referring to the
12 number of journeypersons on the site at the
13 time?
14 A No. This is a dispatch for
15 sending one man.
16 BY MR. SOBOCIENSKI:
17 Q If Burder would have said four
18 guys on the job, would you send more than a
19 steward?
20 A May not be four, might have been
21 two. I don't know. In my past history with
22 something like this, as soon as you send a
23 steward up, they yank one of their guys away.
24 I'm not going the start off on the wrong
25 foot. Get your eggs in place first.
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2 BY MR. MACK:
3 Q Your shop steward on the job?
4 A Yes, and then you take it from
5 there.
6 Q On this question, how many
7 journeypersons, in your mind, you are
8 referring to the shop steward when you write
9 that down?
10 A Yes.
11 Q That was in your mind, anyway?
12 A Get my shop stewards in place.
13 Q How many journeypersons; you are
14 counting the shop steward as a journeyperson?
15 A Yeah.
16 Q Some people might interpret that
17 how many journeypersons are on the site
18 already, or how many need to be sent in
19 addition.
20 A No. It says how many
21 journeypersons. If I left that blank, it
22 doesn't say, no, you know the scenario.
23 Q I do.
24 A Did I do that wrong?
25 Q I think you did.
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2 A That's how we do it now.
3 Q That's what you should discuss.
4 Maybe you did it right. It doesn't make
5 sense to me, because you're double-counting
6 the shop steward.
7 MR. DIENST: He is saying that he
8 is considering a shop steward in the
9 definition of journeyman.
10 MR. MACK: That's what he is
11 saying.
12 MR. DIENST: So when he is
13 talking about a shop steward and one
14 person, he's talking about the shop
15 steward as one person being a
16 journeyman.
17 MR. FIRTH: That's the way it is
18 done now.
19 MR. DIENST: It is not one plus
20 one, it is one being a journeyman who
21 also happens to be a shop steward.
22 Q There's an intuitive questions in
23 my mind that that makes sense.
24 A He is a journeyman.
25 Q He is?
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2 A Absolutely.
3 Q Is there any question that when
4 you dispatch a shop steward to a jobsite,
5 that he is going to be a journeyman, and he's
6 one human being. Is there any reason to have
7 that question in? Why would you ask the
8 question if you're asking for a shop steward
9 dispatch "how many journeypersons," with a
10 plural; because if it's the shop steward, it
11 is only one human being. How many people are
12 you sending? Just doesn't make sense to me,
13 intuitively. Maybe that's the way the
14 District Council looks at it.
15 A Then you're asking the wrong guy.
16 Q I am asking the wrong guy.
17 A That's how we still do it.
18 Q Do you understand my point on
19 that, because it would never be
20 journeypersons, would it?
21 MR. DIENST: Are you, as the II,
22 making a recommendation that this form
23 be changed so as to reflect the
24 difference between shop steward and
25 journeymen?
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2 MR. MACK: I'm saying that it
3 doesn't make sense to me, because the
4 answer would always be one, wouldn't it?
5 It would never be more than one, because
6 you're talking about the shop steward
7 being a journeyperson.
8 MR. FIRTH: I can't believe we
9 are going here with this. I don't see
10 what you're talking about. I don't mean
11 to be disrespectful or nothing, talk to
12 the District Council's counsel over
13 this. I'm a little --
14 Q You are an executive.
15 A I don't know where we are going
16 with that one.
17 Q It is just an intuitive question.
18 It doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it makes
19 sense to the District Council.
20 A If it doesn't make sense, why is
21 it still going on?
22 Q I'm just the II.
23 A This is the first time you picked
24 it up?
25 Q I haven't asked Gary Rothman.
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2 A That's the gentleman you should
3 ask.
4 Q Whenever I have an opportunity to
5 ask the question, I'll ask it, because at
6 least it is a question that is not entirely
7 insane.
8 A Just trying to make a living.
9 Q Let's go on here.
10 When do you find out that John
11 Gaffney is the shop steward?
12 A Sometime that day.
13 Q Do you go to the site with him,
14 or what is your first time after the shop
15 steward was appointed that you go to the
16 jobsite?
17 A I don't know. But I was up there
18 numerous times. I used to meet him and Jerry
19 in the morning.
20 Q We are going there in a minute.
21 I guess the question is: Wasn't there anyone
22 saying, hey, one of my good friends -- wasn't
23 that at least worthy of remark, that John
24 Gaffney shows up as the shop steward on the
25 site?
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2 A I got lots of good friends.
3 Q I understand that. Not everybody
4 is as close as John Gaffney.
5 A I mean, we know each other, we
6 travel together. You know, I'm close friends
7 with Mike Murphy.
8 Q There's nothing wrong with being
9 close friends. When you have a close friend
10 and he shows up as a shop steward on your
11 jobsite, that may be worthy of comment; but
12 you don't recall any particular comment?
13 A No. Was he on the list at that
14 time?
15 Q I have the list, so I know what
16 it is. Whatever it is, I'll deal with that.
17 Did you know what number he was on the list?
18 A No.
19 Q When you first talked to John
20 Gaffney about this job, did you give him any
21 particular advice or counsel in the
22 beginning, about what he needed to do as the
23 shop steward?
24 A No, not at the time. I think --
25 I'm not going the give a definite time
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2 period, but I think two weeks into the job I
3 had to go up there because there as a problem
4 between him and another foreman who was
5 there, whose name I can't recollect, he is an
6 Irish fellow from Dublin, and it was a
7 personality conflict. If you say his name,
8 I'll know it.
9 Q Michael Coughlin?
10 A Coughlin. Yeah, he has a
11 brother-in-law. That's him. I met down in
12 the street --
13 Q What was the problem?
14 A One guy from the north of
15 Ireland, another guy from the south. They
16 were breaking each other's balls. I said,
17 John, you have to relax.
18 Q Do you remember what the
19 substance of the issue was?
20 A It was a personality conflict.
21 It was one guy telling the other guy what to
22 do, and I guess he didn't like the way he
23 told him. It was pure bullshit on both their
24 parts. I went up there, I talked to both of
25 them, and after that, -- I couldn't believe
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2 that they were best of friends after that.
3 It was great for a long time after that.
4 Q Do you recall any conversation or
5 anything coming to your attention, that Fred
6 Dorschug had with you, concerning John
7 Gaffney?
8 A Towards the very end of John's
9 stay there.
10 Q Let's deal with the beginning.
11 Was there any time that it came to your
12 attention, before the very end, that John
13 Gaffney and Fred Dorschug had a history?
14 A Yeah, I told you that.
15 Q When did it first come to your
16 attention?
17 A I heard it years ago. John tells
18 everybody about it.
19 Q Did it come at a time, at all, on
20 this jobsite, 455 CPW? Was it raised then at
21 any time?
22 A To me, no.
23 Q Or by John Gaffney to you?
24 A No, but I think he said -- I
25 think he had told me he made a comment to
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2 Freddie a little bit into the job, that: You
3 remember them laying me off Patty's Day.
4 That was it. There was no problem
5 whatsoever. Actually, Freddie used to talk
6 very highly of him in the beginning.
7 Q So that's your recollection.
8 When you say the beginning, the job went from
9 January 22nd, 2003, until, you know, near the
10 very end of 2004. Okay? So it was a long
11 job. Let's say it's almost two yeas. In
12 fact, I think the job may still have aspects
13 to it.
14 A It just ended a little while ago.
15 It was very long.
16 Q So it was definitely a long job.
17 The question is, if you are
18 telling me that Fred Dorschug was
19 complimentary of John Gaffney in the
20 beginning, that time period, if the job was
21 about two years, how long was Fred Dorschug
22 complimentary of John Gaffney?
23 A John was up there for a year, and
24 I never heard of a problem.
25 Q Let's take the first year, 2003.
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2 How many times would you say you went to that
3 jobsite?
4 A I went up a number of times, they
5 had a couple of problems with LaQuilla. I
6 was up there, you know, -- I had been up
7 there -- in the first six months, I had to be
8 up there eight to ten times.
9 Q When you did go up there, even
10 though I know you've told me you don't have
11 any further records, because they are more
12 than a year old, did you keep a record of
13 your visits there?
14 MR. DIENST: You have to answer
15 yes or no.
16 A Yes.
17 Q In that time period, was John
18 Gaffney always on the jobsite?
19 A Most of the times I went there,
20 it was either very early in the morning or it
21 was around 11:30, 12:000 o'clock. A lot of
22 times I would take my lunch hour after that,
23 from 12:30 to 1:30. I used to go into the
24 park.
25 Q Was John there when you went
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2 there?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Did you notify John before you
5 went to the jobsite, that you were going to
6 the jobsite?
7 A Probably from about three blocks
8 away: I will be right there.
9 Q When did it come to your
10 attention that there were reports of John
11 Gaffney not being on the jobsite during the
12 workday, routinely and repeatedly?
13 A It has to be towards the very end
14 of his time there. Freddie called me a
15 couple of times about him, and says: We got
16 to do something about him. Freddie wouldn't
17 say too much. He would never say what was
18 going on, in my opinion.
19 I know John was always there
20 until after lunch, at 1:00 o'clock. I don't
21 remember him cutting out any earlier than
22 that. I think a few times -- he had a lot of
23 dental work at one time, and -- I really
24 wasn't told too much that he wasn't there,
25 not until the very end.
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