UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
-------------------------------------------x
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
90 CIV 5722
-against- (CSH)
DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED
BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND
JOINERS OF AMERICA, et.al.,
Defendants.
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Independent Investigator Deposition
May 5, 2005
4:40 o'clock p.m.
CONTINUED DEPOSITION of JOHN GAFFNEY,
taken by the Independent Investigator, Walter
Mack, Esq., pursuant to letter subpoena, at the
offices of Doar, Rieck & Mack, Esqs., 217
Broadway, 7th Floor, New York, New York
10007-2911, before Stewart Nissenbaum, a Shorthand
Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New
York.
TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
305 Madison Avenue 142 Willis Avenue
Suite 449 P.O. BOX 347
New York, N.Y. 10165 Mineola, N.Y. 11501
(212)349-9692 (516)741-5235
1 65
2 A P P E A R A N C E S :
3
4 DOAR RIECK & MACK
217 Broadway - 7th Floor
5 New York, New York 10007-2911
6 BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.
7
8 DIENST & SERRINS, LLP
Attorneys for Witness
9 233 Broadway, 18th Floor
New York, New York 10279
10
BY: RICHARD DIENST, ESQ.
11
12
13 ALSO PRESENT:
14 DONALD SOBOCIENSKI
15
16
* * *
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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2 MR. MACK: On the record.
3 J O H N G A F F N E Y , the witness
4 herein, having been previously duly sworn,
5 resumed and testified further as follows:
6 EXAMINATION BY
7 MR. MACK:
8 Q We are continuing from
9 yesterday's session. I'm not going to go
10 over all the rights, but everything is, in
11 essence, the same, and you remain under oath,
12 Mr. Gaffney.
13 So I guess the first question I
14 ask, is there anything that occurred
15 yesterday, or anything that you said
16 yesterday that you would like to change or
17 correct or add to?
18 A No.
19 Q I do want to say a couple of
20 things to you, so you know, because I've
21 already written on the subject of many of the
22 things we are going to be talking about, so I
23 want to make sure that you understand a
24 couple of things that are important, at least
25 to me.
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2 Number one, that although I know
3 you've told me that the out-of-work list is
4 unreliable or they do things, and you can't
5 predict them, and maybe you shouldn't count
6 on them, my experience has been that almost
7 without exception, the entries that are
8 entered into the computer are in fact
9 accurate, and are as a result of requests of
10 the carpenters who call in.
11 So, I just want you to make
12 certain that although you may take the view
13 that maybe some of their operators were crazy
14 or the entries aren't justified, and there
15 are a lot of changes in your report, there's
16 usually a backup with a telephone record of
17 the actual call; I don't mean a recording,
18 but the fact that there was a contact from
19 where the phone call was.
20 So although you said that to me
21 yesterday, the likelihood is, that when I see
22 a skill go on and go off, and come on the
23 next day and go off again, the likelihood is,
24 I'm going to accept their view that that
25 happened. In other words, that it wasn't
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2 somebody else, or that they just did it, you
3 know, at whim; that it was as a result of a
4 particular request or matter that was
5 actually initiated by the carpenters
6 themselves.
7 I also should tell you that
8 although I think you've taken the perspective
9 at times that certain things were done, you
10 don't know why it happened, it was a
11 coincidence maybe; maybe it was carpenters in
12 a bar, you know, and that was the result of
13 it. But as we go on today, there are some
14 very, very specific things in which things
15 happened at a particular time, a job gets
16 called in with a particular skill that wasn't
17 there in the morning.
18 I've already written, on that
19 subject matter, that I've concluded that on
20 those days, there is some communication
21 involving the business agent or involved with
22 respect to the dispatch to the job.
23 You'll see a couple of jobs that
24 are immediate dispatches that concern skills
25 that you did not have, like, the day the
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2 dispatch comes out.
3 So, all I'm really saying to you
4 is, that I would encourage you, especially as
5 we get more and more, shall we say, close to
6 the time period, to do your very best to try
7 to remember about a particular job or
8 something that's there.
9 I know your counsel will have
10 told you that you have to honor your oath to
11 make as good as effort as you can to try to
12 recall the circumstances of the situation.
13 And as we go on today, you'll see there are
14 times when you put a hold-call on for a
15 reason, and then it goes off, something
16 happens almost at that time.
17 You know, if you legitimately
18 don't remember why you did that, that's one
19 thing. But I would ask you to make some
20 effort at doing so, especially as we go
21 closer to this time. I can understand five
22 years ago, but I'm going to do my very best
23 to try to help you by talking about a
24 particular job or a particular situation, so
25 that I can do whatever I can to try to
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2 refresh your recollection about a particular
3 situation.
4 But as I've said numerous times
5 to other carpenters, I don't believe in
6 coincidence all that frequently, is what it
7 boils down to. I would ask you to make as
8 much of an effort as you can today, to try to
9 remember a particular situation, why you did
10 something or what happened at a particular
11 job.
12 Let me say this: I've heard from
13 a number of carpenters and other people
14 concerning some of these topics. I've
15 conducted interviews, and what have you. So
16 in many respects today, and as I said to you
17 yesterday, one, I'm definitely interested,
18 and I'm going to set time aside near the end,
19 about your views, and I know you used some
20 strong language yesterday about a couple of
21 contractors. I'm a military veteran; I've
22 heard strong language; it doesn't bother me.
23 What I certainly would ask you to
24 do, if there are things that you think I need
25 to do or my successor or the judge, because
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2 the new person will be working for the judge,
3 whatever authority I have, it has nothing to
4 do with me, it's entirely up to the District
5 Court, and I try to serve the District Court
6 as I believe to be appropriate.
7 There are things, and I think
8 yesterday you indicated to me there might be
9 some things that you feel need to be changed,
10 or could be changed or could be improved,
11 that would make it better for union
12 carpenters such as yourself, and I definitely
13 want to hear those suggestions today if
14 you're willing to provide them. I'm going to
15 invite your input on that.
16 What I've said, is that
17 reasonably clear to you? Do you have any
18 questions about what I just said about what
19 we are going to be doing today?
20 A No.
21 Q What I would like to do --
22 MR. MACK: Dick, anything you
23 want the say or add?
24 MR. DIENST: No.
25 MR. MACK: All right.
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2 Q I'm going to start pretty close
3 to where we left off yesterday, although
4 there's just like a thread, and I'm going to
5 try to again -- I want to make certain that
6 whatever time it takes for you to look at the
7 records that are there to see what it is I'm
8 referring to, take that time. Of course, as
9 I said to you yesterday, any time you would
10 like to take a break or you would like to
11 talk to Mr. Dienst, you know, in private, or
12 to go over a record, you know, that's my
13 obligation, to give you that time. All you
14 have to do is ask for it or say, hey, I don't
15 know what you're talking about, I don't
16 understand your question. I'll try to ask
17 clear questions.
18 I want to pick up -- I realize
19 I'm going back a little bit, but since I
20 really have -- I'm just going to go fairly
21 quickly. We talked yesterday about the
22 period in November of 2000, and I think I
23 referred you to a couple of jobs; and I just
24 want to make certain, because you were only
25 on them a very short time.
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2 One was on November 8, 2000,
3 which was a Wood Works job, and I just want
4 to make sure -- I think you told me that you
5 don't know that job; you never got to that
6 job. And let me just tell you, so that I'm
7 not misleading you here, what I'm referring
8 to.
9 All of these jobs are listed, to
10 some extent, in what has been Exhibit GAF-1.
11 Anytime you want to look at that, virtually
12 every job you've ever been assigned to, for
13 whatever period of time, is listed in some
14 way in GAF-1.
15 The job was to start on November
16 8th, 2000. You were dispatched, the address
17 was 1166 Sixth Avenue, and the skills were
18 drywall, framing, and construction. You have
19 no recollection of going to that job at all,
20 knowing what it is?
21 A No.
22 Q Because what it reflects here, in
23 going through it, is that there was a skill
24 deletion, and then something about -- from
25 Joe Firth, indicating the job didn't start.
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2 Maybe the job didn't start, maybe you never
3 went their. But what I'm looking for is, I'm
4 trying to figure out whether you have any
5 recollection about that job, at all, for Wood
6 Works.
7 A No.
8 Q Then I have you dispatched almost
9 at the same time, to two jobs. I know it is
10 impossible for you to have gone to bot of
11 them; maybe you did. I'm trying to see. One
12 for Cord Constrution at 140 Broadway. That
13 was actually at 3:53 p.m.; I think it is on
14 the 8th; yes, on the 8th. And then
15 immediate -- there's a minute after that,
16 you're dispatched to a job for Brooks --
17 MR. DIENST: I don't see it on
18 our sheets:
19 MR. MACK: Let's find it here.
20 If you go down to the very bottom of
21 Page 11, it says 12:53 p.m. --
22 MR. DIENST: Okay.
23 MR. MACK: -- referred. And
24 that's actually 3:53 p.m.; but it is
25 California time.
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2 That is tied to a job identified
3 as a Cord job at 140 Broadway. Then
4 immediately after that, on the next
5 page, --
6 MR. DIENST: I don't see Cord
7 referred to.
8 MR. MACK: You have to go further
9 down in the very same exhibit, bottom --
10 it is not the next page, in other words,
11 the actually request and referrals are
12 in that same exhibit. So if you just go
13 chronologically --
14 MR. DIENST: Can you give me a
15 page number?
16 MR. MACK: It is not numbered.
17 It is like Page 42, all the way down. I
18 can find it for you. But if you go
19 to -- see the collection there, what you
20 have your finger on now, go to the one
21 dated November 8th, where it says
22 "referred" at the top.
23 MR. DIENST: Referral Dispatch
24 Notice.
25 MR. MACK: Right.
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2 MR. DIENST: I see November 8th.
3 MR. MACK: Go where it says
4 12:53, which is 3:53. Read that, it
5 says Cord, as you go down.
6 MR. DIENST: Okay.
7 MR. MACK: Then it gives you an
8 address and the name of a foreman.
9 MR. DIENST: Angelo, 140
10 Broadway.
11 MR. MACK: If you just turn the
12 next page, same date, one minute later,
13 is a referral to Brookside Contracting
14 at 1 Liberty Plaza.
15 MR. DIENST: Is that across the
16 street from 140 Broadway?
17 MR. MACK: You know, I know where
18 140 Broadway is, it is on Broadway, and
19 Liberty could very well be across the
20 street.
21 Q What I'm asking is, whether or
22 not you have any recollection of either of
23 those jobs.
24 You received some time from the
25 Brookside job, you got 21 hours. So my guess
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2 would be that you actually ended up at the
3 Brookside job for a period of time, a few
4 days. But it's not my guess that's
5 important, it is your recollection.
6 A I think I worked for Brookside.
7 Q Do you remember that job? In
8 other words, I'm trying to figure out why you
9 only stayed there three days.
10 A No. I remember working for the
11 company; that's it.
12 Q Right. Do you have any
13 recollection of what type of a job that was?
14 A No.
15 MR. MACK: What I'm looking at,
16 Dick, is, on the benefit history it is
17 199.
18 Q That entry gives you three -- 21
19 hours for Brookside. Just to be sure here,
20 the exhibit is GAF-2, and if you go to where
21 it says on the left-hand column there, it
22 goes by number. If you go to 199, you'll see
23 what I'm talking about.
24 A Yeah, I got it.
25 Q All I'm asking is, was that a
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2 three-day job, or, if you remember, did you
3 leave that job for a reason, or was the job
4 over? Do you remember anything about that
5 job?
6 A I have no idea.
7 Q Now, the information is, that the
8 business agent involved with the Brookside
9 job was Jerry Philbin. Okay? So, the
10 question that I'm asking you is, do you
11 recall having any discussions with
12 Mr. Philbin, Jerry Philbin, concerning that
13 job and the possibility of the next job?
14 A No.
15 Q Do you think you would have had
16 conversations with him, or not?
17 A Probably not.
18 Q Here's the reason why all of this
19 becomes somewhat significant to me: On
20 November 13, again looking at your history, I
21 think what you told me yesterday was, you
22 move your telephone number for the
23 out-of-work list from your home number to
24 your cell number. Where am I getting that?
25 I'm going to tell you exactly where I'm
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2 getting that.
3 If you go to Page 12 on GAF-1 --
4 once you get the hang of this, --
5 MR. DIENST: Go ahead.
6 Q -- at 11:32, you went from, I
7 think you told me yesterday, 570-839-0450 to
8 570-350-5210, which I think you told me
9 yesterday was your cell phone.
10 A Yes.
11 Q Do you have any reason for having
12 made that change? Would it mean that you
13 wanted the out-of-work list to call you at
14 your cell phone rather than at home; is that
15 what that meant?
16 A Probably.
17 Q Is there any, like, system, when
18 you do that, or why you would do that on a
19 particular day?
20 A I was driving in the car, you
21 know.
22 Q You don't do it all the time, you
23 go back to home a lot. I'm trying to figure
24 out if there was any reason, in your mind, as
25 to why you would go to your cell phone on a
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2 particular time. You go right back, you
3 know, not right back, in two, three months,
4 you go back to home, and then back to cell
5 phone again, and then back to home. I'm
6 trying to figure out if there's any method
7 for that, or any reason.
8 A No.
9 Q Now, on the 15th, you add -- we
10 talked about this briefly yesterday --
11 concealed ceilings. And the entry there is
12 like 8:56 in the morning, on November 15th.
13 You will see it says 5:56, but as you know,
14 because it is California time, it means just
15 about when they open that morning, you added
16 concealed ceilings. And then that very
17 day -- you also deleted furniture, and then
18 you were dispatched that day to a Donaldson
19 job by Jerry Philbin, that had concealed
20 ceilings in it. So as I'm sure you know, my
21 question would be: What happened that day
22 that caused you to add concealed ceilings, if
23 anything?
24 A I was probably talking to
25 carpenters, and it is a common thing.
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2 Q The question is the timing as to
3 why you put it on that day and then why Jerry
4 would have had a job at Donaldson that day
5 with concealed ceilings. Was this a subject
6 of conversation with him?
7 A Probably not.
8 Q So, I mean, did you ever call
9 Jerry or talk to Jerry about jobs coming up,
10 or skills that would be appropriate for jobs
11 coming up?
12 A No.
13 Q Do you remember that job at
14 Donaldson? I'll tell you where it was. It
15 was at 195 Hudson Street.
16 A Yeah, down here.
17 Q Right. Right. So basically, did
18 you have, before you were dispatched to that
19 job as the shop steward, did you have any
20 knowledge that that job would be starting, or
21 that that was the job you wanted to go to, or
22 be able to go to?
23 A Not that I can remember.
24 Q My next question is, that you go
25 back on the out-of-work list on March 12th,
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2 2001. Again, if you just go down there, you
3 will see it on Page 12. Help yourself here,
4 whatever. And the question I have for you
5 is: Were you working for Donaldson at the
6 time -- do you recall how long you were
7 working for Donaldson?
8 A I think it was two or three
9 months.
10 Q All right. So do you have a
11 recollection of the job ending, and putting
12 yourself on the out-of-work list?
13 A No.
14 Q Was it your practice to put your
15 name on the out-of-work list before the job
16 actually ended? Some carpenters have told me
17 that, that when they knew the job was close
18 to ending and there was just a short period
19 of time before they were going to be needed
20 for a job, even though they were still
21 working, they put themselves on the
22 out-of-work list. Others, and I don't want
23 to suggest to you what the answer should be,
24 but basically others waited till the job was
25 over, they were laid off, and then put
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2 themselves on the out-of-work list.
3 Do you have a recollection of
4 what you did in this case?
5 A Not in that case.
6 Q Say it again.
7 A Not in that case.
8 Q You think you were not working
9 when you put yourself on the list?
10 A It is possible I put it on, say
11 I'm finishing up tomorrow, put it on this
12 evening.
13 Q Now, the next job is a job
14 basically where you are listed as requested
15 at Rogers & Sons. Okay? That's actually the
16 next -- that's at Manhattan College. Do you
17 remember that job?
18 MR. DIENST: Is there a date on
19 that>
20 MR. MACK: There is. I mean,
21 basically, the date of the request is
22 March 23rd, 2001.
23 Q I --
24 MR. DIENST: Would that be at the
25 bottom of Page 12? I'm trying to follow
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2 that myself.
3 MR. MACK: Okay, if you are
4 looking -- yes that actually is. The
5 actual request for the job start is for
6 starting March 26. The date of the
7 request was March 23rd, 2001, at 7:47.
8 That's when it comes in. That's at the
9 very bottom of Page 12.
10 Q My main purpose here is basically
11 trying to find out, when you went back on the
12 out-of-work list on the 26th, were you
13 working for Rogers & Sons?
14 A I worked for Rogers.
15 Q So there's a period of time that
16 you go back on the out-of-work list, you will
17 see that at 3:02, and I just don't understand
18 what happened there, because I think you were
19 working for Rogers & Sons. So at least it
20 would appear to me -- I just don't understand
21 why you would have gone back, because the
22 actual shop steward reports indicate that you
23 were working during those days for Rogers &
24 sons. I'm trying to figure out how you got
25 back on the out-of-work list there. Was that
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2 a -- do you have any idea as to how that
3 happened?
4 A No.
5 Q All right. Again I'm trying to
6 understand what's happening here. On March
7 27th, you are on the out-of-work list,
8 although the shop steward reports reflect you
9 were working at Manhattan College; you add
10 skills, concrete and wood framing, then you
11 delete wood framing and 10-hour OSHA, and
12 then about five hours later, you add wood
13 framing and 10-hour OSHA, and you delete
14 ceiling, drywall, drywall framing and
15 concealed ceilings.
16 What's happening there? Why are
17 you doing that?
18 A I'm not doing it. The Council,
19 they mess up all the time.
20 Q So is it your view that the skill
21 adds and deletes are being done by someone
22 else, or is it the operator at the
23 out-of-work list who was doing this or -- I
24 want to make sure I understand what you're
25 telling me.
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2 A I have no idea what was done.
3 Q The reason that I'm puzzled, is
4 that you are on the out-of-work list, you
5 are, at least as far as the shop steward
6 reports, working for Rogers; and then you are
7 dispatched to a job for Rush Concrete
8 Corporation at New Horizon Shopping Mall on
9 March 30th, as a shop steward.
10 From what I can tell, you get 18
11 hours of contribution for them. So it at
12 least appears to me you would have worked at
13 least some time for Rush Concrete. Do you
14 have a recollection of that job?
15 A I remember it.
16 Q And that's at this New Horizons
17 Shopping Mall?
18 A Yes; there was an empty lot.
19 Q The address they show is 170th
20 Street and Bryant Avenue in the Bronx. Does
21 that sound right?
22 A The Bronx.
23 Q Why were you there only,
24 whatever, 18 hours or -- are they not giving
25 you the right benefits; did you leave the
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2 job? What is your recollection of what
3 happened there?
4 A There were scumbags there.
5 Q The judge has heard those words
6 before. What was the situation, why did you
7 leave then?
8 A I'm not putting up with them.
9 Q I just don't know -- I understand
10 that they were not your favorites, but what
11 was it about them that you did not like?
12 A Offhand, I don't remember, but I
13 remember they were scumbags.
14 Q I don't want to spend a lot of
15 time on what a scumbag is. Is a scumbag
16 someone who treats you poorly, or someone who
17 acts unprofessionally or tries to violate the
18 Collective Bargaining Agreement? Can you
19 help me a little bit more on what a scumbag
20 is, in your eyes?
21 A In my eyes, not union men.
22 Q They are using nonunion people,
23 no abiding by the union rules?
24 A No, they treat the men like dirt.
25 Q Push them harder than they should
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2 be, and treat them poorly?
3 A Exactly.
4 Q Is that the reason you left that
5 job there?
6 A It was also three feet of mud we
7 were walk through, working, that was a big
8 reason.
9 Q You're back on the out-of-work
10 list on April 4th, 2001, and you will see, I
11 think it is the last three entries on Page
12 123, and -- it appears, at least to me, that
13 you're still working for Rogers & Sons during
14 this period. And the reason I say that is,
15 if I look at your benefit history, and that's
16 in exhibit GAF-2 --
17 MR. DIENST: That's April 4.
18 THE WITNESS: '01.
19 MR. MACK: '01.
20 Q To start with, I'm looking
21 specifically at Line 172. They are reporting
22 181.5 hours for you for the month of April
23 2001. So the question that I naturally would
24 ask you is: Are you working for them during
25 the time period; and why are you on the
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2 out-of-work list if you're working?
3 A I have no idea why. Like I said
4 before, sometimes companies buy stamps and
5 send them in a month after.
6 Q I'll say to you that if you think
7 this is an error, that they are misreporting
8 your time, I can ask them for the payroll
9 record, if you think you were not working for
10 them during this time period. Because, as I
11 say here, you are on the out-of-work list
12 pretty much through the month of April up
13 till April 24th, when you report on April
14 24th that you're working.
15 So I was guessing, and it is only
16 a guess, because obviously I need your
17 recollection, is that the work you were
18 reporting was for Rogers & Sons, because
19 that's where all those hours are being
20 reported for you for that month. It is your
21 recollection that I'm asking about.
22 A I have no idea.
23 Q Do you want me to get the payroll
24 record for Rogers & Sons, would that
25 reflect -- you think you were not working for
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2 them?
3 A No.
4 Q What would you like me to do on
5 that in order to resolve it? Do you think
6 you were working or you weren't working?
7 A I have no idea.
8 Q Rogers & Sons reports time for
9 you through June. I don't see any reporting
10 for May, and yet I do see reporting for June.
11 Was there a time period that you took time
12 off, or was there a time that the job
13 interrupted at Rogers & Sons?
14 The reason you're here, I'm
15 asking for your recollection, insofar as I
16 can get you to remember them; because I agree
17 with you, that the record sometimes may be
18 inaccurate, and I want to get your
19 recollection if there's something you can
20 recall. We'll be getting a lot closer to the
21 present soon, but, I mean, this was a job at
22 Manhattan College.
23 Was there a time when that job
24 shut down, or that they didn't work? Because
25 I don't see any hours reported for you for
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2 May.
3 A They still owe me a couple of
4 weeks' stamps, and I filed with the Council a
5 couple of years ago. It is ongoing.
6 Q Do you have any paperwork that
7 deals with the weeks that you were not paid
8 for, you did not get benefits for, that might
9 have been in May? I don't know when it was.
10 A I think the Council has them.
11 Q Do you have a recollection of how
12 many weeks that they failed to pay you your
13 stamps?
14 A A couple of weeks.
15 Q About two weeks, about two weeks.
16 What happened? Are they out of business,
17 Rogers & Sons, or why didn't they pay you?
18 A No idea.
19 Q Have you ever raised any question
20 with the District Council as to why you
21 haven't been credited with your benefits for
22 those two weeks?
23 A Yes.
24 Q What did they say to you?
25 A They are working on it.
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2 Q That was 2001?
3 A Every year now, I have to go down
4 and ask.
5 Q They are still working on it?
6 A Yes.
7 Q A question that comes up is,
8 there are hours reported for Rogers & Son,
9 maybe they misreported them, is what it boils
10 down to. You're saying that there are
11 missing weeks as well, that should have been
12 reported; right?
13 A I'm owed stamps. I don't know
14 from what week it is, but I'm owed hours.
15 Q Here's a similar series of
16 questions dealing with July of 2001. Just to
17 summarize, during May, you delete acoustical
18 ceilings, concrete; to be specific, May 21st,
19 you delete acoustical ceilings, concrete
20 drywall, framing, laboratory furniture, and
21 wood framing. On June 28, you delete
22 ceiling, drywall. Do you have any
23 recollection of why you were doing that, what
24 was in your mind or why that was happening?
25 A No.
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2 Q Now you go back on the
3 out-of-work list on July 6th. Here's sort of
4 a series of things that I'm trying to see
5 whether or not you remember what happened
6 here.
7 On July 6, you go back on the
8 out-of-work list at 9:32 a.m., you have been
9 sent as a shop steward to Nationwide; so let
10 me ask you about that job. I'm trying to
11 figure out whether that job was over.
12 There's a furniture job at 135 West 36th
13 Street, for Nationwide Furniture Installers.
14 Do you remember that?
15 A I remember the company.
16 Q Do you remember that location,
17 135 West 36th?
18 A I remember I worked with them for
19 a couple of days.
20 Q Was that all the work was, or did
21 you leave that work before it was over?
22 A Office furniture could be this
23 room. It could take a day, it could take two
24 hours.
25 Q I'm asking if you have a
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2 recollection of this particular job.
3 A I think it was a short one.
4 Q On July 6, you go back on the
5 out-of-work list, sounds like the furniture
6 job ended, you go back on the out-of-work
7 list, you add skills concrete and protection.
8 You are referred a job on the 9th, and you're
9 bypassed. I don't know if you ever knew what
10 that job was.
11 On the 10th, you add heavy-gauge
12 framing, July 10th, 2001, and you delete
13 furniture, and on that very day, you are
14 referred to a job that basically Maurice
15 McGrath calls in, with just the skills that
16 you added over those few days: Concrete,
17 heavy-gauge framing and protection.
18 So my question to you is: What
19 was the reason, if you can remember, why you
20 added those skills on that particular time
21 period?
22 A Summertime, you want to do
23 concrete.
24 Q There was protection and
25 heavy-gauge framing; it was all added on the
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2 very day; or at least two of those were added
3 on the very day of the dispatch to a
4 particular job. So I guess my question to
5 you is: Did you have any advance notice of
6 this job that you were sent to for SBG
7 Construction Corp.? That job was at 49th
8 Street and 12th Twelfth Avenue.
9 A No.
10 Q Was there any particular reason
11 that you added those skills and deleted that
12 skill that day?
13 A Yes, summertime work, concrete.
14 Q And is that the only reason?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And protection, as well as
17 heavy-gauge framing?
18 A That's part of the concrete.
19 Q Obviously, from the situation, it
20 all happened on a particular day of a
21 dispatch, so what you're telling me is that
22 this was just coincidence, that's the way it
23 work out; is that right?
24 A I don't know what way it worked
25 out.
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2 Q Were you aware of this job --
3 A No.
4 Q -- before you got there? And,
5 two, did you have any discussions with
6 Mr. McGrath beforehand, about what skills, or
7 the availability of this job?
8 A No.
9 Q Now, do you remember that job for
10 SBG, you were shop steward there, and it was
11 at 49th and Twelfth Avenue. Do you have a
12 recollection of that job?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you recall how long you were
15 on that job?
16 A Three or four months, probably.
17 Q Now, you go back on the
18 out-of-work list on October 22nd, 2001, and
19 basically SBG, as you can see in the Exhibit
20 GAF-2, is reporting, for instance, for
21 October, 203.5 hours for you, which would
22 give me some reason to believe that you were
23 working through October; and they also report
24 106 hours for you in November.
25 So I guess my question, then, is:
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2 Were you working when you added your name
3 back to the out-of-work list for SBG?
4 A SBG only works 40-hour weeks, no
5 overtime; so 203 is not possible.
6 Q Okay. Again, you can -- the
7 record, as you can see, is all I'm relying
8 on. At Line 1559 --
9 A They buy the stamps, say I worked
10 in April, they can buy the stamps in May, and
11 they will bring them in, in a lump.
12 Q Is it your recollection that when
13 you put yourself back on the out-of-work
14 list, your job at SBG had ended, in other
15 words, you were out of work?
16 A More than likely, yes.
17 Q What you would say, it is your
18 recollection, then, that in fact you were out
19 of work when you added your name on October
20 22, 2001? Do you believe that to be true, or
21 you don't know?
22 A Don't know.
23 Q I don't mean to cut you off. But
24 you think you were out of work when you put
25 yourself back?
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2 A I can't remember back then.
3 Q So you're on the out-of-work list
4 starting October 22nd, until you actually
5 report on November 20th, 2001 that you are
6 working for Call Enterprises, a furniture
7 company. I see reported for you, not only
8 the benefits for SBG for October and
9 November, but also for a company called RCC
10 Construction. Does RCC Construction ring any
11 bell?
12 A I worked for them.
13 Q Do you recall a jobsite that you
14 worked for them at?
15 A Not offhand, but I know I've
16 worked for them.
17 Q In the period of November 2001
18 through your reported shape to Call
19 Enterprises you delete your concrete,
20 protection, you add furniture, then you take
21 furniture off, then you add foreman/layout,
22 concrete, protection, then you delete all of
23 it a week later. And then you put furniture
24 on. And then just a short time later, they
25 report your shape to Call Enterprises.
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2 What's happening there, why is
3 that happening, if you can remember? That's
4 all in November 2001, and you're on the
5 out-of-work list at the same time until you
6 report your shape.
7 A I have no idea.
8 Q You add yourself to the
9 out-of-work list on January 2nd, 2002, at
10 8:32 in the morning, and there are shop
11 steward reports that we have from Call, which
12 indicate that you were working for Call at
13 the time.
14 So I guess what I'm asking you
15 there is: Is that a situation where you were
16 actually working when you put yourself on the
17 out-of-work list, or do you have a memory of
18 that?
19 A Don't know.
20 Q Here's the first time that I'm
21 able to find at least that you're using a
22 hold- call situation, and you might want to
23 see what I'm referring to. It is in GAF-5,
24 it is actually the second page in GAF-5.
25 MR. DIENST: Did you give us 5?
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2 MR. MACK: If I didn't, let me
3 give it to you.
4 MR. DIENST: I don't think you
5 did. That's one of the ones you said
6 you would supply when you got to it.
7 MR. MACK: All right; I'm not
8 denying it.
9 MR. DIENST: I may be incorrect.
10 MR. MACK: No, I may very well
11 have not. Let me check.
12 MR. DIENST: I have it.
13 MR. MACK: You have it?
14 MR. DIENST: Yes. My mistake.
15 Q So when you do a hold-call, it is
16 actually entered into the work referral
17 history, so you can see they record your
18 hold-call on the third entry on Page 17. And
19 since it is their rule that you have to
20 confirm it with a writing, the actual writing
21 is the second page of GAF-5. Would you take
22 a moment and take a look at that?
23 MR. DIENST: We have the one
24 dated February 1st.
25 MR. MACK: It is actually faxed
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2 on February 1st, 2002, from John's
3 Pocono --
4 THE WITNESS: John's Pharmacy.
5 Q Is that your writing, is that
6 your signature there, Mr. Gaffney, on that
7 document?
8 A Looks like it.
9 Q Is that printing yours, as well,
10 or is that somebody else's?
11 A It looks like mine.
12 Q And that location where -- is it
13 John's Pharmacy?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Is that close to your home?
16 A No.
17 Q Is that someplace -- you're
18 familiar with where that place is?
19 A Yes, my wife had a shop next
20 door.
21 Q So, what was the reason that you
22 froze for one month their, was that -- was
23 there something going on, was there a health
24 issue? I don't mean to pry in your personal
25 business, but I want to get some idea why you
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2 used the hold-call there, what was the
3 concept involved?
4 A The Poconos, could be three feet
5 of snow, maybe. I would sit home for a
6 month.
7 Q The reason I'm asking this, of
8 course, is that in less than a month you
9 actually remove the hold-calls, on February
10 22nd, and go to a job at Ground Zero for
11 Component. Okay? So I'm trying to figure
12 out, you know, what happened there, was --
13 did you learn about that job at Ground Zero
14 or, in other words, why did you -- in other
15 words, show it in your hold-call what
16 happened there?
17 A I probably got tired sitting at
18 home.
19 Q The reason, of course, that I ask
20 you, is that Component reports for you 249
21 hours for the month of February 2001, 151. I
22 know you're a hard worker, but it would have
23 been very hard to work 249 hours in six days.
24 Were you working for Component
25 before you reported the shape on February
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2 22nd, or is that a situation where you think
3 Component is misreporting your benefits?
4 A Possible I waited a couple of
5 days, because we are allowed to work eleven
6 days.
7 Q I know you said this to me
8 yesterday, but the fact is, whether you work
9 one day or you work eleven days, you're not
10 supposed to be working when you're on the
11 out-of-work list, so say their rules.
12 So, if -- you can't work eleven
13 days and still be on the out-of-work list,
14 they keep track of every day you work, and
15 the eleven-day rule is when you get to
16 eleven, you know, it shifts?
17 A You're off the list.
18 Q Right?
19 A Correct.
20 Q You don't have eleven days of
21 work that you can stay on the out-of-work
22 list. In other words, every time you're
23 working, you're supposed to go off for the
24 period you worked. That's the way it works?
25 A Not my understanding.
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2 Q Tell me your understanding. Your
3 understanding is you could be working eleven
4 days and still be on the out-of-work list?
5 A Correct.
6 Q You might want to check that with
7 the District Council going forward, because I
8 know that's not the way they enforce it.
9 A When I call the out-of-work list,
10 they say yes, you can.
11 Q I can tell you from having done
12 this for some time, that whoever is telling
13 you that is wrong. So that if you're actual
14 working, you're not supposed to be on the
15 out-of-work list; with some exceptions, and
16 those exceptions are like trade shows or if
17 you get laid off at night to be requested the
18 next day, which is one of my criticisms of
19 the request system; people put their name on
20 the out-of-work list even though they never
21 lose an hour of work. But that's for you to
22 interact about with the District Council,
23 because I know there's no situation that you
24 can be working and on the out-of-work list,
25 unless it is, like, a trade show, or weekend
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2 work. That's the way they believe they have
3 instructed everyone.
4 In any event, the reason I'm
5 asking the question is, that you put a
6 hold-call on, maybe it was snowing in the
7 Poconos or whatever, but Component is
8 reporting for you for the month, 249 hours of
9 time. So, it would appear to me at least if
10 Component is reporting accurately, that you
11 were working for Component before February
12 22nd, 2002. Do you ever a recollection
13 whether you were or were not?
14 A I was there February sometime.
15 Q Could it have been early
16 February?
17 A I could have waited ten days,
18 eleven days.
19 Q If you remember, tell me. I
20 don't want you guessing or telling me
21 something that you think I want to hear.
22 If you remember going to Ground
23 Zero and working, and waiting eleven days
24 before you reported, if that's your
25 recollection, you should tell me that.
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2 A That's probably what happened.
3 We were putting in big hours, 14-hour days,
4 so we racked up a lot of hours.
5 Q But you didn't rack up 249 hours
6 in six days.
7 A No.
8 Q I want you to understand, because
9 sometimes when I talk to carpenters, they
10 think that I'm criticizing their work or
11 whether they are hardworkers or they are good
12 shop stewards. That's not what we are
13 talking about here. We are talking about the
14 out-of-work list and how it works, and does
15 it work the same for everybody.
16 Now, I see you go back on the
17 out-of-work list on April 12th, 2002. And
18 you will see there, right on Page 17, about a
19 third of the way down, 8:48 a.m., you go back
20 on the out-of-work list for 608.
21 So if you look at Lines 149, 148,
22 147, and 146, it certainly appears to me that
23 you are working long hours at Ground Zero for
24 Component. My question is: Why did you go
25 back on the out-of-work list in April, or is
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2 Component misreporting your hours for those
3 months? Those are big hours. You must be
4 working heavy overtime to be getting those
5 hours on a monthly basis.
6 A We were told we were finishing
7 up, and it didn't, and that changed every
8 day.
9 Q Are you really telling me that
10 you thought in April, on April 12, that the
11 job was going to be over any day; and
12 therefore, you know, you worked through May
13 and through June? You're on the out-of-work
14 list from April all the way through May,
15 June, and you put a hold-call on, on June
16 5th, which, you know, which would, at least
17 from the out-of-work list perspective, is
18 from their perspective, they would say, gee,
19 you were out of work during that time period
20 and yet Component is reporting heavy hours
21 for you have during that entire period. You
22 see what I'm referring to?
23 My question is: Is there an
24 explanation for that, that you can offer me?
25 A No.
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2 Q Do you believe you were working
3 while you were on the out-of-work list, is
4 that a mistake that you were on the
5 out-of-work list, or what is your
6 explanation, if you have one?
7 A I know I was working at Ground
8 Zero.
9 Q You were working tremendous
10 hours, no question about it. I compliment
11 you for the hard work, we certainly needed
12 it.
13 The question I'm asking is: Why
14 are you on the out-of-work list during that
15 time period?
16 A I don't know.
17 Q So then, going back to GAF-5,
18 there's -- I think if you turn to the fourth
19 page in, in GAF-5, there's a hold-call, June
20 5th, 2002. Is that your printing there?
21 A No.
22 Q Do you recognize that?
23 A That looks like my wife's.
24 Q Okay. Do you know the reason for
25 that freezing the number on the out-of-work
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2 list there for one month? Do you know, was
3 that something you asked her to do?
4 A I don't know.
5 Q Do you have any recollection
6 about why that was done?
7 A No.
8 Q Then if you turn two more pages,
9 you will see a note concerning -- you can
10 read it to yourself, from the Pocono Medical
11 Center.
12 The question is: Did you have a
13 health issue there? I'm not trying to pry
14 into your health history, but the hold-calls
15 is extended from July 1st, it says, because
16 you stated -- reading from the exhibit:
17 Member states or stated he needs thirty days
18 because he is on medication.
19 A I think I got my nose broke a
20 couple of times, I think that's what that is.
21 Q Was that a job-related accident,
22 or something that happened to you, or --
23 A No. Regular.
24 Q So were you out of work then,
25 because Component stops reporting for you in
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2 early July; and as I say, Component, if I
3 were to read their record, it appears that
4 you're working through the beginning of July.
5 I don't see hours reported for you until
6 August. So, if whoever you were working for
7 was reporting benefits, which I hope they
8 were, it appears that in July you only worked
9 a week.
10 A I think we finished the Fourth of
11 July, that was our last day.
12 Q On the last day, then, were you
13 out of work for a while? Because of your
14 problem with your nose, or whatever it was;
15 is that what happened?
16 A I don't know how long I was out.
17 Q So in other words, were you out
18 of work basically after the Fourth of July
19 ceremony for some time period? Do you have a
20 recollection of not working for a few weeks?
21 A I probably took some time off.
22 Q Then on July 31, you erase your
23 hold-calls. You see it right there. And you
24 delete your furniture skill and add the skill
25 of concrete, and you are dispatched
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2 immediately to a job at Tully, by Joe Firth,
3 at Ground Zero.
4 So my question is, do you recall
5 that situation, and why you added your
6 concrete skill there at the end of July? Is
7 that based on any communications about
8 another job at Ground Zero that you wanted to
9 be at?
10 A I seen what was going on there, I
11 see what jobs are coming up.
12 Q Right. I didn't know where you
13 were during the month of July.
14 A Tully was in there all the time.
15 MR. DIENST: Let the record
16 reflect, so that whoever reads this may
17 know, that John speaks with quite a
18 brogue, and there might be a little
19 difficulty in you understanding certain
20 of the words, or the stenographer
21 understanding certain of the words.
22 MR. MACK: If I make a mistake,
23 I'm sure one of you gentlemen will
24 straighten me out. It is not
25 intentional.
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2 Q During the period that you had
3 this lighter work duty and this hold-call,
4 were you -- I mean, after the Component job
5 ended after the Fourth of July, were you in
6 the City, at Ground Zero, during the period
7 after that, or were you in the Poconos, or
8 both?
9 A I probably come into the City.
10 Q Were you aware that Tully was
11 going to have a job at Ground Zero?
12 A Yes; six months before that.
13 Q Okay. Was this a job that you
14 wanted to get dispatched to, if you could?
15 A Didn't bother me, one way or the
16 other.
17 Q Did you have any conversations
18 with Joe Firth about the availability of that
19 Tully job?
20 A No.
21 MR. MACK: Why don't we take five
22 minutes.
23 (Short recess taken.)
24 MR. MACK: Let's go back on the
25 record.
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2 Q The Tully job is at Ground Zero?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Tully is reporting for you for
5 the week ending August 4th, 29.50 hours;
6 which would at least raise the question as to
7 whether or not you had worked at all for
8 Tully before you were dispatched there as the
9 job steward.
10 The question is: Given what
11 happened, you deleted furniture, added
12 skills, Joe basically has you dispatched
13 immediately to the Tully job on August 1. So
14 the question I have is, were you working for
15 Tully before you were dispatched there as the
16 shop steward?
17 A No.
18 Q Now, you only stay at that job --
19 you go back on the out-of-work list, and this
20 is something that, of course, again, I need
21 your help in explaining to me. Why didn't
22 you stay at the Tully job? You go back on
23 August 6th, 2:32 p.m. Why didn't you stay at
24 the Tully job?
25 A The foreman was a prick. Gino.
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2 Q What does that mean, what was he
3 doing that was inappropriate or
4 unprofessional?
5 A I think he was a 1456 guy, a Dock
6 Builder, or something.
7 Q I understand when you tell me
8 somebody --
9 A Or a 731 guy; one of those, he
10 wasn't a regular carpenter.
11 Q What was it about him that caused
12 you not to work at that job?
13 A I couldn't stand him.
14 Q Was he, you know -- I can
15 understand that, but I'm looking for a little
16 bit more. What was he asking you to do, or
17 how was he treating you in such a way that
18 caused you to leave the job? Because you had
19 been at Ground Zero, you know, for Component
20 for a period of time, and worked tremendous
21 overtime. I thought it would probably have
22 been a value situation, and yet you left this
23 Tully job very quickly. I'm trying to figure
24 out what was it about his behavior that
25 caused you to leave.
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2 A I would probably end up punching
3 him, if I had stayed.
4 Q What was he asking you to do?
5 What was he ordering be done that was so
6 offensive to you? Can you give me an
7 example?
8 A I think it was just his attitude.
9 Q Was he disrespectful to you? I'm
10 just trying to understand?
11 A I don't know, I just think -- I
12 didn't like him. End of story.
13 Q But there wasn't anything
14 particular that you can identify about his
15 behavior? I mean, was he -- did he deny your
16 ability to be a shop steward appropriately?
17 Was there anything in particular that he did
18 or didn't do?
19 A I can't remember exactly what he
20 was doing.
21 Q This is another dispatch here.
22 All of this happened, you go back on the
23 out-of-work list on August 6th. Tully
24 reports for you approximately 72.5 hours
25 during the time period that you were at the
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2 Tully job. You come back and go on the list
3 on August 6th. You add the skills of
4 drywall, framing, furniture, protection. You
5 delete concrete, and you are dispatched an
6 hour -- less than an hour later to a Eurotech
7 job with skills that you did not have the day
8 before.
9 I'm trying to figure out how that
10 happened. What happened there?
11 A I probably took concrete off
12 because I was pissed off with Tully. I added
13 regular skills.
14 Q I know that, but they are skills
15 that basically -- well, the job is Houston
16 and Broadway. Do you remember that job for
17 Eurotech?
18 A Yes.
19 Q I'm trying to figure out whether
20 you had any conversation with any business
21 agent at 608 prior -- about that job, let me
22 put it that way, first of all, that Eurotech
23 job.
24 A I don't know if we talked about
25 the Eurotech job, but I talk to business
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2 agents about jobs all the time.
3 Q When you left the Tully job, did
4 you talk to any business agent at 608 about
5 getting another job?
6 A I asked how long is the wait.
7 Q Did you have any particular
8 conversation with a business agent in which
9 that person or persons suggested to you that
10 either there was a job, or that you should
11 add or subtract certain skills?
12 A I talk to business agents all the
13 time.
14 Q That's not what I'm asking. I'm
15 asking you, did you have a conversation
16 around this time period, with any business
17 agent? I'm glad you do talk to business
18 agents all the time.
19 What I'm trying to find out is,
20 did you have any conversations with a
21 business agent around August of 2002, when
22 you left the Tully job, concerning other
23 jobs?
24 A Probably.
25 Q Did you have any conversations
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2 with business agents at this time, that
3 concerned skills of any kind; skills that you
4 should put on, skills that you should take
5 off?
6 A I don't recall.
7 Q You don't recall whether you did
8 or didn't?
9 A I talk to business agents all the
10 time. I don't write down what I talk to them
11 about.
12 Q Do business agents give you
13 suggestions as to what skills to put on or
14 put off, what jobs are available?
15 A It is common sense.
16 Q It may be common sense, but the
17 question is: Has a business agent ever made
18 a suggestion to you as to what skills you
19 should have on, or what skills you should not
20 have on the out-of-work list?
21 A I can't recall.
22 Q You can't recall whether they
23 ever did or didn't?
24 A They say, like, put solid surface
25 on if you have it, put the skills on you
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2 have. If you want to work outside, put
3 concrete, protection, heavy, wood framing,
4 layout. If it is coming to wintertime,
5 inside, furniture, sheetrock, ceilings.
6 Q You put some skills on and then
7 you take them off, and you put them on again,
8 and there's usually a dispatch that happens
9 almost immediately thereafter. In this case,
10 it is on that very day.
11 So what I'm asking you is, did
12 you ever have a conversation with a business
13 agent in which the business agent said:
14 Listen, you know, I think it would be a good
15 idea for you to remove these skills or put
16 these skills on; there's either a job coming
17 up, or you'll be more likely to get a job of
18 this kind? Nothing wrong with that. I'm
19 trying to find out it occurred?
20 A I've never been told to take
21 skills out.
22 Q How about putting them on?
23 A That could have happened.
24 Q Do you remember having any
25 conversation with any particular business
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2 agent about putting certain skills on or off,
3 or about a particular job, saying putting a
4 particular skill on would help you in getting
5 a job?
6 A No.
7 Q Did you have any conversation
8 with any business agent at 608, before you
9 were sent to this Eurotech job, about this
10 Eurotech job?
11 A Not that I know.
12 Q No that you know?
13 A Not that I remember. Not that I
14 remember.
15 Q Do you recall ever having a
16 conversation with John Greaney -- you know
17 who John Greaney is, right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Did you have any conversations
20 with John Greaney about this Eurotech job at
21 Houston and Broadway?
22 A No, but I went out for a few
23 drinks with him that night.
24 Q Was that after you were
25 dispatched there?
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2 A Once I finished up with Tully.
3 Q When you finished up with Tully,
4 did you talk to John Greaney about other jobs
5 that would be coming up?
6 A That's the normal part of the
7 conversation, what's coming up.
8 Q What does John Greaney tell you?
9 A He either tells me it is going to
10 be slow, it is going to be busy, good times,
11 bad times.
12 Q All right. Does he give you some
13 suggestions about what you should do about
14 skills that you should have on, skills you
15 should have off?
16 A No, I know what skills are
17 needed.
18 Q I understand that. I think you
19 did tell me that there were occasions when a
20 business agent would make a suggestion to you
21 about skills to take --
22 A Yes.
23 Q Did John Greaney ever suggest to
24 you to put certain skills on or take certain
25 skills off?
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2 A I don't recall.
3 Q Do you remember how long this job
4 for Eurotech was?
5 A I think two or three months.
6 Q Did you have any problems on that
7 job at all, any issues that came up, that you
8 can recall?
9 A Not that I remember.
10 Q Now, in December, on December
11 11th, you delete drywall, framing, laser,
12 safety and protection, on December 19th, you
13 delete furniture. On December 24th, the day
14 before Christmas, you add concrete, wood
15 framing, protection, drywall, acoustical
16 ceilings, windows, and hollow metal
17 storefronts and foreman/layout.
18 Do you have any recollection as
19 to why you were taking those skills off, and
20 adding those skills at that time?
21 A No.
22 Q Was there anybody giving you any
23 recommendations; did any business agent or
24 other carpenter say, hey, I think it is a
25 good time to be adding these certain skills,
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2 you know, especially hollow metal storefronts
3 and windows, and foreman/layout; were there
4 any jobs coming along that might have use for
5 those skills?
6 A At union meetings, every meeting,
7 he says there's a lot of concrete coming up,
8 there's a lot of windows, so the guys can
9 figure out what skills to put on, every
10 month.
11 Q Is that the reason you put all of
12 those on there?
13 A That might be.
14 Q So maybe at meetings. But did
15 you have any conversations with any
16 carpenter, making a recommendation to you
17 that those are the skills you should put on?
18 A We listen to what our Union
19 President says at the meetings, so if he says
20 there's a lot of window jobs coming up, the
21 carpenters are going to put hollow metal and
22 windows.
23 Q Is that your recollection, that
24 you were at a meeting, when you say
25 business -- you're talking about John
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2 Greaney?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Was this a suggestion of his,
5 that those skills should be put on?
6 A He makes suggestions all the
7 time, saying take journeyman classes.
8 Q These weren't classes.
9 A I know. You have to -- some
10 things you have to take classes for.
11 Q On December 30th, you were
12 dispatched as a shop steward foreman,
13 concrete, to Jacobi Medical Center, and it
14 appears that you get probably two days of
15 benefits there. What happened on that job?
16 A They weren't there, and we filed
17 a Grievance.
18 Q They weren't on the job?
19 A That were there the week before
20 and then they left and came back. But they
21 were supposed to be there the day I was sent.
22 Q Was your Grievance for 16 hours?
23 A Yes, two eight-hour days.
24 Q Anybody else there, besides you
25 as the shop steward?
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2 A No, I believe I was supposed to
3 be the shop steward.
4 Q Then I have you being dispatched
5 to 75 Worth Street for Elmont Glass Company.
6 Do you remember that job?
7 A Yeah.
8 Q You weren't on that -- is that
9 just a small job, a couple of windows?
10 A Ten windows, or something.
11 Q Was that what you had in mind, or
12 was that the type of job you had in mind when
13 you put hollow metal storefronts?
14 A No.
15 Q What were you looking for?
16 A A month-plus is what you're
17 looking for.
18 Q Were you talking to Maurice
19 McGrath at all during this time period, about
20 what skills should be on or be off?
21 A No.
22 Q In terms of the business manager
23 or agents that you're closest to, who would
24 that be at 608?
25 A Joe Firth.
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2 Q Now, were you aware that -- when
3 was the first time you became aware that
4 Prince was going to have a significant job
5 coming up?
6 A When? They have big jobs coming
7 up all the time.
8 Q When did you become aware that
9 they were going to have a big job coming up
10 at Central Park West, 106th Street?
11 A Probably a couple of months
12 before it started.
13 Q And was that just talk, or was
14 there a particular person or situation in
15 which that came out?
16 A That would be just talk.
17 Q Talking in a bar?
18 A Yeah.
19 Q Was that every a topic of
20 conversation with Joe Firth before you were
21 dispatched to the job?
22 A Joe doesn't go to bars.
23 Q My question is: Did you ever
24 mention to Joe Firth, before being dispatched
25 there, that that was the job you were
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2 interested in?
3 A No.
4 Q Did you ever discuss with Joe
5 before getting there, that basically there
6 was a job coming up for Prince?
7 A Did I ever discuss with Joe?
8 Q That Prince was having a job
9 coming up soon, or at some period in the
10 future, that you would like to go to?
11 A I don't think so.
12 Q But you were aware that this job
13 for Prince was coming up, what, two months or
14 so before?
15 A Could have been six months. That
16 job is on hold ten years.
17 Q That job at that location?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Were you aware that, whether it
20 was on hold or not, I know the building
21 myself, that there was a chance, or a good
22 chance that it was going to actually start in
23 the near future?
24 A I knew it was starting to move.
25 Q That was what, from just talk in
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2 bars?
3 A Right.
4 Q Did you know or -- did you know
5 anybody at Prince?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Did you have any conversations
8 with them about whether the job was coming
9 up?
10 A That could have been how I knew.
11 Q But you don't remember exactly
12 how you knew; you do recall knowing?
13 A I knew about that job.
14 Q All right. Did you ever discuss
15 that job with Joe Firth, before the dispatch?
16 A Not that I can recall.
17 Q Not that you can recall?
18 A Yes.
19 Q So on GAF-5, that's the
20 hold-calls again, at the very last page of
21 that exhibit, that's your signature there;
22 right?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Is that your printing as well?
25 A It could be. Looks decently
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2 close.
3 Q What was the reason that you put
4 a hold-call at that time period, on
5 January 15, 2003?
6 A I could have been sick of
7 traveling, Poconos.
8 Q You'll see it says, could you
9 please freeze my number, starting today,
10 January 15 --
11 A All right.
12 Q -- for thirty days?
13 A Correct.
14 Q What was in your mind at that
15 time, if you can recall, why did you do that?
16 A If you lived up in the Poconos
17 you would know it sometimes takes four hours
18 traveling to New York. Maybe I was pissed
19 off traveling.
20 Q Maybe yes or no. But the reason
21 I ask is that five days later, you erase the
22 hold-calls.
23 A Probably got tired of sitting at
24 home.
25 Q "Maybes" are a lot of things.
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2 Why did you put the hold-call on, you say
3 thirty days, and then you take it off five
4 days later. Do you have a recollection why
5 you did that?
6 A I believe you can go 30 days, or
7 30 days you can put the freeze on, so we
8 always put the max, and if you want to only
9 freeze it for two days, you unfreeze it.
10 Q I'm just trying to figure out
11 why --
12 A You can't freeze it for five days
13 and then freeze it for another five days. I
14 believe you can't.
15 Q I don't think you have to freeze
16 it for 30 days.
17 A Up to thirty days.
1