Laborers for JUSTICEŠ 1997-2006 All Rights reserved. Not for republication on the internet without permission.
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
Index No.
-against- 90 CIV 5722
(CSH)
DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED
BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND
JOINERS OF AMERICA, et.al.,
Defendants.
Independent Investigator Deposition
April 15, 2004
4:00 o'clock p.m.
DEPOSITION of PATRICK LYNCH, taken by
the Independent Investigator, Walter Mack, Esq.,
pursuant to letter subpoena, at the offices of
Doar, Rieck & Mack, Esqs., 217 Broadway, 7th
Floor, New York, New York 10007-2911, before
Harold Rabinowitz, a Shorthand Reporter and Notary
Public of the State of New York.
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1 2
2 APPEARANCES:
3
4 DOAR RIECK & MACK
217 Broadway - 7th Floor
5 New York, New York 10007-2911
6 BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.
Independent Investigator
7
8 O'DWYER & BERNSTEIN, ESQS.
9 Attorneys for Union
52 Duane Street
10 New York, New York 10007
11 BY: JASON S.FUIMAN, ESQ.
12
13 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
U.S. Attorney's Office
14 86 Chambers Street
New York, New York 10007
15
BY: LISA ZORNBERG, ESQ.
16
17
KOHLER & ISAACS
18 Attorneys for Witness
120 Broadway - 29th Floor
19 New York, New York 10271
20 BY: STEVEN ISAACS, ESQ.
21
22
23 *
24
25
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1 3
2 MR. MACK: What I'm going to do,
3 Mr. Lynch, is explain what is happening
4 today, who I am, what my purposes are,
5 what my authority is, and what your
6 rights as a witness are.
7 You have the same rights as every
8 witness who is here. We'll try to
9 answer any questions you may have. It's
10 my desire to ensure that this is
11 proceeding is as fair as I can make it.
12 And I recognize that I am not as
13 familiar with your trade and your
14 profession as a carpenter, and therefore
15 it's important to me that I understand
16 your perspective and get the benefit of
17 your experience and views on questions
18 that are important to me.
19 So bear with me for a few moments
20 while I go through what is a standard
21 process that I go through to make sure
22 that everybody who is here understands
23 their rights, and believe that they are
24 being treated fairly. At least that's
25 my purpose.
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2 Now, I'm the Independent
3 Investigator, appointed by Judge Haight,
4 who is a Federal District Court Judge,
5 who basically, with the consent of the
6 District Council of Carpenters, and the
7 carpenters, appointed me. I don't work
8 for the District Council or the Federal
9 Government; I work for Judge Haight, and
10 I'm basically his appointed person to
11 try to gather data and information and
12 to fulfill the terms of an Order, which
13 I know your counsel has a copy of and
14 may have gone over with you, but I want
15 to just summarize what my job is.
16 Recognize that I am an
17 investigator. I'm not a prosecutor. I
18 have no authority to discipline you. I
19 have authority to make recommendations,
20 but, in essence, the disciplinary
21 process, if any, of the District
22 Council, is theirs. I can report to the
23 Judge, but my purpose is primarily to
24 gather facts and data, and understanding
25 of issues which are within my purview or
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2 within my responsibility.
3 My responsibilities are numbered.
4 One, the people who work for me, work
5 the hotline. If telephone calls come in
6 to the anti-corruption line, they work
7 for me, and it's their job to inform me
8 of what is there. I also write reports
9 about the corruption program, and make
10 recommendations or referrals if I feel
11 something needs to be addressed. But my
12 primary responsibility is understanding
13 how the out-of-work list works, and the
14 assignments of shop stewards, journeymen
15 and apprentices to jobs under the
16 jurisdiction of the District Council.
17 And primarily that's the reason why you
18 are here today; to help me understand
19 how the process works with respect to
20 particular contractors and particular
21 carpenters. So, I want to put you at
22 ease here, in the sense that you're not
23 being accused of any crime or any
24 wrongdoing. I have no authority to deal
25 with that.
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2 You have counsel here to help
3 you, and it's my purpose to gather facts
4 so that I can understand how the process
5 has worked in the past and how it works
6 today. So, I do want you to see me, not
7 as a person -- I'm sure you can think of
8 better places where you would rather be
9 on a Thursday afternoon, but I'm
10 permitted, in order to ensure that I get
11 accurate facts, to require carpenters to
12 come in and see me and answer questions.
13 You're one of a number who have been
14 here, and many who will come. So, I do
15 want you to understand that you haven't
16 been singled out because of any opinion
17 on my part that you have done something
18 wrong, or that you have committed some
19 type of misconduct. And even if you
20 had, I have no authority to do anything
21 about that, other than to write about
22 it.
23 So, I want to ease your concern
24 about why you are here, and recognize
25 that my purpose is to gather your
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2 perspective and your information.
3 The reason there's a court
4 reporter sitting to my right and your
5 left, is because I can't write and
6 speak; I have trouble chewing gum and
7 speaking at the same time. The
8 reporter's purpose here is to ensure
9 that I have a record after you have left
10 here, weeks and months after you have
11 gone, so I can see what Patrick Lynch
12 told me about a particular topic or
13 about a particular job, because I
14 wouldn't remember that; okay?
15 MR. LYNCH: Yes.
16 MR. MACK: I want to put you at
17 ease.
18 My design is to ask easy
19 questions; questions that are easy to
20 understand. The answers may be hard,
21 but I want you to be patient with me and
22 explain it to me, because I know a
23 carpenter's perspective may be different
24 from that of a lawyer; and basically I
25 want to listen to your answers.
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2 Now, here are the things which
3 are important to you, which you may or
4 may not have discussed with your lawyer,
5 but I want to raise them here today so
6 that you understand them.
7 You will be put under oath in a
8 few moments, and I do that with every
9 witness who appears in the proceeding,
10 so I can make sure they give their best
11 attention to my questions and that they
12 honor the oath by telling me the truth,
13 the whole truth, and nothing but the
14 truth. The only way you can run into a
15 problem with me, and potentially the
16 Court, is if you willfully deceive me or
17 if you withhold information, or if you
18 lie under oath, or basically if you try
19 to prevent me from doing my job in some
20 way by giving me false information. And
21 you can run -- and I'll say this: If I
22 determine that someone who has appeared
23 before me has intentionally sought to
24 mislead me, lie to me, or deceive me,
25 I'll make a recommendation to the Court
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1 9
2 that there be a referral to a
3 prosecutor, because I'm trying to gather
4 accurate data and basically the only way
5 that I can conceive that you would run
6 into a difficulty with me is if you
7 intentionally lie to me or try to
8 deceive me.
9 I'm sure your lawyer has told you
10 that, but that's really the most
11 significant warning I give you: Honor
12 your oath when you have been sworn.
13 There have already been people who have
14 appeared here who may, unfortunately,
15 feel that I may not be smart enough to
16 figure things out; but in the general
17 course of things I find out what the
18 truth is; and if the truth is
19 inconsistent with what you have told me
20 and if I believe someone has
21 intentionally misled me, they'll have a
22 problem with me and the judge. I can't
23 predict the judge's action, but I can
24 refer that to a prosecutor.
25 Now, if at any time today you
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2 don't understand my question, say: Hey,
3 Mr. Mack, or Walter -- or in whatever
4 way you want to call me -- I don't
5 understand what you're asking me.
6 My design is to ask simple
7 questions and to understand your
8 answers. There is no answer that, in my
9 view, -- as long as it's truthful -- is
10 a bad answer. I need to know what
11 happened. I have questions. I have
12 looked at your work history. I have
13 looked at your benefits records. I'm
14 aware of your removal as a shop steward
15 by Maurice McGrath, which is something
16 I'm interested in hearing about.
17 There was one complaint filed
18 against you in May of 2003, dealing with
19 it 50/50 on a particular jobsite with
20 Century Maxim. All I know is what the
21 records show me. I don't know your
22 perspective on those issues, and that's
23 why you are here today. That's one of
24 the many reasons.
25 I'm glad that you're represented
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1 11
2 by counsel today, because basically he
3 should be able to see and ensure that
4 you're being treated fairly and that in
5 fact I'm not trying to, you know, be
6 deceptive or ask tricky questions.
7 That's not my purpose. And if at any
8 time today you wish to go outside the
9 room and have a discussion with your
10 counsel, all you have to do is ask,
11 because I certainly want to ensure that
12 you have availability to discuss matters
13 that concern you. I'm glad to see that
14 you have counsel. That's your choice,
15 as far as I'm concerned. But having
16 done so, it makes my job easier because
17 there's an attorney here who is familiar
18 and who is comfortable with what the
19 rules are that I have to deal with in a
20 court-type of setting, and I can count
21 on him, I'm sure, to be sure that you're
22 being well-represented.
23 I want to raise a couple of
24 things which are a little bit technical,
25 but which are important.
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2 I'm not certain, but at least
3 it's a possibility that the District
4 Council may, in some way, have an
5 obligation to reimburse you or reimburse
6 someone for some part of his fees,
7 Mr. Isaacs' fees. I know he is a fine
8 lawyer and with great skill, and he
9 knows what his ethical obligations are.
10 And I certainly have no intention of
11 telling him what they are, but basically
12 I want to make sure that you understand
13 that I don't care what is in the
14 interests of the District Council or
15 not. I'm only interested in what you
16 have to say, and Mr. Isaacs' position
17 here today is to represent you entirely.
18 Therefore, I know he will understand
19 that if there's a question, the answer
20 to which could be critical of someone in
21 the District Council, his loyalty is to
22 you, even though the District Council
23 may at some time in the future -- and I
24 have no direct information about this --
25 that they may be paying a portion or all
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2 of his fees. And therefore I'm going to
3 be able to rely upon him that his sole
4 obligation here, no matter who is paying
5 his fees, is to represent you.
6 So, if one of your answers or
7 more than one have some criticism or
8 accusation against the District Council,
9 your obligation would be to tell the
10 truth, no matter who it helps or who it
11 hurts. That's his obligation. And I
12 want to make sure that if there's some
13 payment provision made by District
14 Council, or 608, for instance -- I'm not
15 trying to find out what it is, but if
16 there is, the loyalty he has is to you
17 and not to the Union or the District
18 Council, but to represent you as a
19 witness here.
20 And number two, I know Mr. Isaacs
21 represents another carpenter who has
22 appeared here, another individual who
23 I'm not going to name, but his interests
24 may in some respects be different than
25 yours; and as such, I'm also going to
NATIONAL REPORTING INC. (877) 733-6373
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2 call upon Mr. Isaacs to recognize that
3 if one of your answers -- and I don't
4 think it will happen, but I'll raise it
5 because I'm trying to be careful --
6 should in some way be critical of one of
7 his clients or future clients, or
8 someone who he has reason to believe
9 will be a client, that his obligation
10 here today is to you. And basically if
11 there's a conflict that arises in his
12 mind, he will be, because of his
13 knowledge of his ethical obligations to
14 report those, because you're entitled to
15 the best legal advice for you, and
16 that's what I'm counting on.
17 Do you understand what I have
18 said, or at least pretty close?
19 MR. LYNCH: Yes; whatever, yes.
20 MR. MACK: If there's something
21 you don't understand, you certainly can
22 take time to talk to Mr. Isaacs about
23 it.
24 MR. LYNCH: Okay.
25 MR. MACK: Let me mention a
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2 couple of other things which are
3 important to me. I don't think I can
4 ask you a question, at least in my mind,
5 or at least I don't have in mind a
6 question that I can expect that a
7 self-incrimination, or something that
8 might incriminate you personally --
9 criminally -- there may have been things
10 done that may very well not be
11 consistent with the rules of the
12 District Council; or perhaps not.
13 That's one of the things we are here to
14 find out today. But if I ask a question
15 which, in your mind, you think could
16 incriminate you, you have the right, as
17 any witness would -- this is not a
18 criminal proceeding here. This is a
19 civil proceeding, in which I'm gathering
20 facts, but if in your mind you feel that
21 you might not want to answer a question
22 because a truthful answer to that
23 question could tend or would tend to
24 incriminate you, personally -- it has to
25 tend to incriminate you, personally, not
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2 some other business agent or not someone
3 in the District Council, what have you,
4 you have to think that it might
5 incriminate you, you have the right to
6 assert the Fifth Amendment. Every
7 witness has that right. I give that
8 type of warning, but I have to tell you
9 that if you do take the Fifth Amendment,
10 I have the right, but not the
11 obligation, to infer that, you know,
12 some set of facts or some information
13 from that is -- in other words, I would
14 say to myself: Why would Mr. Lynch not
15 want to answer this question?
16 I have all of this other data.
17 I have the right in my mind to
18 evaluate if I want to conclude from that
19 assertion that maybe some set of facts
20 are not all that complimentary to you.
21 So, because it has an impact on my
22 decision-making, what I would ask you is
23 this: If there's a question which I ask
24 you which you believe you think you
25 might have a Fifth Amendment privilege
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2 on, I would ask you to talk to your
3 lawyer about the outside, and go back
4 and forth and decide whether that's a
5 proper assertion or not.
6 Now, here is one thing that I do
7 want to raise, and I raise it every time
8 I give this warning, and there's a
9 lawyer, Mr. Fuiman, who has been here
10 before, and it's a question which I
11 still ask and which I don't have an
12 answer to: If you do assert the Fifth
13 Amendment to the questions asked by the
14 Independent Investigator, does it have
15 an impact on your union membership or
16 not.
17 I don't know the answer to that
18 question. I ask that question to the
19 District Council every time I give the
20 warning, and I don't know the answer
21 yet. It's at least possible that
22 they'll not consider it as a positive
23 star in your record if you do assert the
24 Fifth, but as far as I'm concerned, it's
25 your right to do so, but it's also my
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2 right to make decisions as a result of
3 that if you do so; okay --
4 Having said all of that -- and
5 I'm going to give your lawyer an
6 opportunity to add to this or to raise
7 questions, or what have you -- is there
8 anything that you would like to ask me
9 either directly or through your counsel,
10 about who I am, what is happening here
11 today, what is going on, or anything
12 that I haven't been clear about, that
13 you would like me to clarify?
14 MR. LYNCH: I don't understand
15 this anyway; whatever.
16 MR. MACK: Can you tell me what
17 it is you don't understand, and I'll try
18 to answer that?
19 MR. LYNCH: I'm only a carpenter.
20 MR. MACK: I understand that.
21 I'm only a lawyer.
22 MR. LYNCH: That's right.
23 So, whatever questions you want
24 to ask, I'll try and answer them.
25 MR. MACK: Why don't we try, and
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2 we'll see how we do. We'll go from
3 there, and we'll go step by step.
4 These questions that I will ask,
5 you're the only person that I know that
6 you would have an answer to, because
7 they pertain to you, Patrick Lynch. I
8 don't know who else to ask. I can talk
9 to the District Council. I have their
10 records. I can talk to your friends or
11 your colleagues. But the way I look at
12 it is, if I have questions about Patrick
13 Lynch, you're the person I should be
14 talking to so you can straighten me out.
15 That's the way I see it, anyway.
16 Do you understand what I have
17 said?
18 You don't have to agree with me.
19 All I'm asking you is, do you
20 understand.
21 MR. LYNCH: That's why I'm here.
22 MR. MACK: I appreciate you being
23 here. I'll try to be efficient.
24 I understand your counsel has to
25 leave early today. So, we may have to
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2 do this on another day; okay? Do you
3 understand that?
4 MR. LYNCH: Yes.
5 MR. MACK: Mr. Isaacs?
6 MR. ISAACS: Just to add that
7 this stipulation, the Consent Decree,
8 was negotiated between the Government
9 and the District Council. And while it
10 may never be in issue in the future,
11 Mr. Lynch reserves any rights he has,
12 whether in the Federal Court or in an
13 internal proceeding in the Carpenters
14 Union to challenge whether the
15 Carpenters Union had the authority to
16 enter into this agreement without the
17 ratification of its membership. It's my
18 understanding that this has never been
19 ratified by the membership of any part
20 of the District Council. So, just to
21 reserve whatever rights Mr. Lynch may
22 assert later if they need to be raised,
23 I don't want this proceeding, while Mr.
24 Lynch is here voluntarily to answer your
25 questions, to be considered any sort of
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2 a waiver of any sort of rights Mr. Lynch
3 may need to assert in the future.
4 MR. MACK: I think you said
5 something similar to that in our ;ast
6 encounter.
7 MR. ISAACS: I did.
8 MR. MACK: And that's fine.
9 I do want to say this, Mr. Lynch,
10 you or your counsel, obviously you can
11 reserve those rights, and also, the
12 person I work for, Judge Haight, if
13 there comes a time when you or your
14 counsel feel the needs to speak to the
15 judge, to raise a formal request or an
16 application, obviously, that's always a
17 step that you can take.
18 MR. ISAACS: Sure.
19 MR. MACK: But it will require
20 various legal provisions, notice to the
21 parties, and everything like that.
22 MR. ISAACS: Yes.
23 MR. MACK: There have been a
24 number of people here in your position
25 already. I try to go as efficiently and
NATIONAL REPORTING INC. (877) 733-6373
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2 as quickly as possible so that you can
3 go about your business, you know, and
4 return, and there will be an increasing
5 number of carpenters who will be here as
6 time goes on, when there are questions
7 that I am unable to answer by just
8 looking at the records. And that's why
9 you are here.
10 I understand that, and I
11 acknowledge that, and obviously any
12 rights that need be asserted by you or
13 on your behalf by your counsel, that's
14 fine. As I say, that's your decision to
15 make when it's appropriate to make it.
16 Now, that having been said, let
17 me mention who the other people in the
18 room are. These people are here at my
19 invitation. The gentleman sitting to
20 the right of Mr. Isaacs is Jason Fuiman,
21 who is an attorney with the firm of
22 O'Dwyer & Bernstein, who are the lawyers
23 for the District Council, and they have
24 been invited by me to send a
25 representative so that if -- because I'm
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1 23
2 only a lawyer without lot of experience
3 with the Carpenters, although I have
4 learned a lot in the time period that I
5 have been here, but if there's something
6 that they believe need be brought out or
7 something that need be said, they are
8 given the opportunity to participate to
9 ensure that I don't overlook something
10 that your counsel doesn't overlook or
11 hasn't asked. So, they are here at my
12 invitation to ensure that if they feel
13 certain things should be brought out,
14 and so I have a chance to consider them,
15 they have an opportunity.
16 Sitting to Mr. Fuiman's right is
17 an Assistant U.S. Attorney,
18 Ms. Zornberg. She is here at my
19 invitation. She represents the United
20 States Attorney's Office. They are
21 frequently here. They have much more
22 experience and time in assessing the
23 union, and have much more knowledge
24 about the history of what has happened
25 with the Carpenters over time, and the
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1 24
2 significance of some of the matters that
3 we'll be talking about. So, they are
4 here today to do the same, so that if
5 there's something that I overlook or
6 something that they feel need be brought
7 out, in fairness, on a subject, that I
8 have invited them to appear as well.
9 And also, so that they have the benefit
10 of hearing from you so that they know
11 what is happening out there on the
12 street on the jobsite, where, to me, the
13 most important part of the situation is
14 happening.
15 Your information is of great
16 consequential both to me, the District
17 Council, and the Government; and that is
18 why they are here. And I would ask if
19 either of them, Jason or Lisa, if they
20 have anything to add or subtract before
21 we begin?
22 MR. FUIMAN: No, sir.
23 MS. ZORNBERG: Nothing.
24 MR. MACK: I'll be doing most of
25 the questioning. I'm going to proceed
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1 25
2 pretty simply and chronologically, and I
3 want to be slow and give you as much
4 time as you need to understand my
5 questions.
6 I think one of the things you
7 told me was -- you know, there was a
8 notice. This is one procedure which is
9 a little different which we lawyers deal
10 with. I have these bright orange
11 exhibit tags which I put on documents so
12 that I can keep track of the documents,
13 so a month from now when I'm reading
14 your testimony and I want to know what
15 piece of paper I have shown you, they'll
16 have a number on it. They'll be PL
17 numbers, and they'll tell me that you're
18 the individual that I was dealing with.
19 They mean nothing on their own, other
20 than helping me to keep track of
21 documents.
22 I'll give your counsel a copy of
23 the documents and I'll give you a copy
24 of them. You may never have seen them
25 before, but primarily today they'll be
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2 focusing on your records; records of
3 Patrick Lynch. So, I want you to take
4 some time -- that's all I have. That's
5 why you are here. So, we'll take our
6 time and go through them, but the
7 numbers on them have no significance
8 other than helping me to keep track of
9 them; okay?
10 Any other questions?
11 Ready to go?
12 MR. LYNCH: Fire away.
13 MR. MACK: Let me ask that you be
14 sworn. I'll ask the reporter to swear
15 you.
16 PATRICK LYNCH , the witness
17 herein, being first duly sworn by Harold
18 Rabinowitz, a Notary Public of the State of
19 New York, was examined and testified as
20 follows:
21 EXAMINATION BY
22 MR. MACK:
23 Q Now, Mr. Lynch, I'm going to show
24 you something, and I want to go slowly, and
25 we'll go as slowly as you need to go.
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1 Lynch 27
2 This is PL-1. This is basically
3 a copy of what I believe to be a copy of the
4 notice that was, I believe, mailed to you. I
5 want you to just read it to yourself, because
6 my question is going to be: Does this appear
7 to be a copy of what you received and which
8 eventually resulted in your appearance here
9 today?
10 A That's the letter I got.
11 (Letter, notice to appear, marked
12 Exhibit PL-1 for identification.)
13 Q Now, I asked you at that time to
14 bring me, if you had them, of course, a
15 variety of records and that's set forth right
16 there in the letter. I know you mentioned to
17 me that you had some destruction in your
18 house, and what have you, but my first
19 question is: Are there any records that you
20 have brought here today which are called for
21 in this notice, PL-1?
22 Just take a moment. There is no
23 rush here. Just take your time and look at
24 it.
25 A I have my certifications.
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1 Lynch 28
2 Q So, what I would ask you to do
3 is, the records you have brought, so I can
4 have them copied so you can take the
5 originals back home with you, if you can give
6 me the originals now, so that I know what
7 records you have brought.
8 THE WITNESS: My certifications?
9 MR. ISAACS: Yes, your licenses.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 Q Okay. Take your time and give
12 those to me, and we'll go on from there.
13 (Five cards handed to Mr. Mack.)
14 Q Now, if other records are not
15 here with you today, if they are home or in a
16 locker or in some other location, you need to
17 find those and bring those to me if they are
18 located. You need to come back to see me
19 anyway, because of the reason that your
20 lawyer has to leave today; that's not my
21 fault, but what I'm saying is that I would
22 like to make sure that I have all of your
23 certificates.
24 One thing I wanted to ask you is,
25 I know you have 10-OSHA on your skill list.
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1 Lynch 29
2 I don't know if you have given me that or
3 not. I see some, but not --
4 A Isn't this it?
5 Q That's scaffolding.
6 A I have OSHA.
7 Q I know you do. I'm not
8 challenging you.
9 A The safety thing?
10 Q Yes.
11 A I know I did it.
12 Q I'm not challenging whether you
13 did or not, I just want to see the
14 certificate.
15 (Pause.)
16 Q Take your time. If it's at home
17 you can show it to me next time, or your
18 lawyer can get it to me. The reason why it's
19 good to have the originals here is so I can
20 copy them and give them back to you.
21 (Pause.)
22 A All right. Forget about it.
23 Q All right. So, we'll leave that
24 open.
25 A I know I done OSHA. It's
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1 Lynch 30
2 someplace.
3 Q All right. We'll move on.
4 Now, I also asked you -- because
5 I know a little bit about your work history
6 from the documents, and not from you --
7 whether or not, for instance, when you were a
8 shop steward at Century Maxim -- I know you
9 have worked for them and you have been a shop
10 steward for Century Maxim, and that's one of
11 the topics that we'll talk about today, I
12 hope; but did you, yourself, keep any records
13 of your own, based upon your work there for
14 Century Maxim; you know, your own records of
15 who was there, and things that went on,
16 besides the shop steward reports, which I
17 have?
18 A No.
19 Q Because it has been my experience
20 that frequently shop stewards have their own
21 notepad or some other way that they keep
22 track of who is there, how many hours they
23 are there, and things of that nature; and
24 that's in some other form other than the shop
25 stewards report.
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1 Lynch 31
2 So, this notice basically said,
3 look: When you were a shop steward -- and I
4 mentioned two companies that I know you
5 worked for, DePalma and Century Maxim -- I'm
6 interested in you bringing any documents
7 concerning your work there.
8 Do you have any documents?
9 A I have no documents.
10 Q Now, could you explain to me
11 briefly, a little bit more completely about
12 what you mentioned to me a little bit
13 outside, as to why you don't have any
14 documents.
15 What happened?
16 A Well, any documents I had -- my
17 garage went on fire. Anyway, DePalma was a
18 couple of years ago. I don't keep
19 documents --
20 Q Just take your time and tell me
21 why you don't have documents. That's all I'm
22 asking you.
23 A I don't keep them: I use the
24 shop steward sheets; that's it.
25 Q When you're a shop steward on a
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1 Lynch 32
2 job, as the week progresses, how are you
3 keeping track of the people who are on the
4 jobsite and for how many hours?
5 A I have a book with everybody's
6 name in it; and the foreman, he calls in the
7 times, and I get the times off him. We
8 negotiate -- we talk the times. When he
9 calls the times in he gives them to me and
10 that's it.
11 Q Now, that's different than the
12 shop steward report; is that right?
13 A No. My shop steward's report
14 coincides when he calls in the times for
15 everybody who is there, and I go with his
16 sheets, that's it. So, they get paid and the
17 same amount of hours that a man works, I put
18 it down on my sheet.
19 Q I want to make certain: So,
20 other than the shop steward report which you
21 sign and which the foreman signs and which
22 gets submitted, do you maintain or keep, when
23 you're the shop steward, any other piece of
24 paper or document?
25 A No.
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1 Lynch 33
2 Q So, what is your practice as you
3 go from day-to-day?
4 A Because I write down -- I know
5 everybody who is on the job. As a shop
6 steward, you have the shop steward's sheet.
7 Q I know that.
8 A That's everybody that is on the
9 job, and everybody's name is on the job and
10 on the shop steward's sheet. And you go to
11 the foreman and you talk to the foreman. He
12 calls in the time. I go to him and we talk.
13 If there's a guy missing, there's a guy
14 missing. If there's a guy in, he is in.
15 That's it.
16 Q We'll come back to this; but now
17 what I'm trying to do is to make sure that
18 you have no other records which are called
19 for in the notice; and you're not only
20 telling me that you don't have the records,
21 but you never had any records other than the
22 shop steward report --
23 A I have no other records other
24 than the shop steward's report.
25 Q And even from day-to-day you had
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1 Lynch 34
2 no other records, other than the shop steward
3 report when you were on the job;is that
4 right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q So, while I have these copied,
7 you're going to -- let me see if this is
8 accurate or not.
9 You had a fire in your garage?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Just tell me what happened, so I
12 know.
13 A I was laid off.
14 Q When was that?
15 A In November, October or November.
16 I was off for three months, anyway. I was
17 doing a bit of work in the house. It's a
18 long story. I was going to put another floor
19 on my house.
20 Q Good.
21 A My garage was full of stuff.
22 Q Full of documents?
23 A Full of everything. We took --
24 me and my wife took the attic out and put it
25 in the garage. When I was home I was doing
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2 repairs. It was around Christmas --
3 Q Of 2003, last Christmas?
4 A That's right. I had a halogen
5 light on -- the garage, you couldn't even
6 open the door, whatever.
7 Q I have the image.
8 A I was putting up the Christmas
9 decorations or whatever, but the light -- I
10 was only working on a couple of pieces and
11 whatever. The next thing is, my wife comes
12 home from school with the kids and she sees
13 the smoke coming out of the garage. There's
14 a records of that, believe me.
15 Q I'm not challenging that.
16 A Everything went down, whatever.
17 Q So, whatever was there, whatever
18 documents that might have been there, were
19 destroyed; is that fair?
20 A Yes. I can guarantee you that.
21 Q So, whatever certifications that
22 you haven't brought to me, you can bring to
23 me another time; is that right?
24 A Well, whatever you ask me for.
25 Q Well I have all of your skills.
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1 Lynch 36
2 I only have five, but I know there are a lot
3 more. We can do that by mail. I think
4 that's fair.
5 A Yes.
6 Q So, let's move on to the next
7 area.
8 What I'm going to do is give you
9 some documents so that you can look at them,
10 and these all have numbers on them. What I'm
11 going to do is give you -- the ones with the
12 orange tags are the ones that are going to be
13 part of the records, but I'll hand them to
14 you.
15 The first one that I have is
16 PL-2, which is one version of the benefit
17 funds records for you.
18 MR. MACK: I have one for the
19 District Council --
20 MR. FUIMAN: Thank you.
21 MR. MACK: And one for the U.S.
22 Attorney.
23 MS. ZORNBERG: Thank you.
24 Q There's PL-2A, which is a
25 continuation of that, which brings us pretty
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1 Lynch 37
2 close to current.
3 MR. MACK: I have a copy for the
4 District Council, PL-2A.
5 MR. FUIMAN: Thank you.
6 MR. ISAACS: Are these from the
7 companies or the District Council?
8 MR. MACK: These are benefits
9 records from the District Council. I
10 have not subpoenaed Century Maxim or any
11 of these other companies for their
12 payroll records, but I'm willing to do
13 that if you feel, after today, that
14 these are inaccurate; because these are
15 the best records that the District
16 Council has or the Benefits Fund has
17 about your work history.
18 I'll give you your work history
19 as the District Council has it recorded;
20 PL-3.
21 I'll give a copy to your counsel
22 and I have one for the District Council.
23 MR. FUIMAN: Thank you.
24 MR. MACK: I have one for the
25 U.S. Attorney.
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1 Lynch 38
2 MS. ZORNBERG: Thank you.
3 Q Here is a record of all of your
4 skills as listed, and the dispatches for you.
5 So, here's the original of PL-6 and a copy
6 for your counsel.
7 MR. MACK: A copy for the
8 District Council.
9 MR. FUIMAN: Thank you.
10 MR. MACK: And the U.S. Attorney.
11 MS. ZORNBERG: Thank you.
12 MR. MACK: What I would like to
13 do now is I would like to take about a
14 five to seven-minute break to allow the
15 reporter to rest, and allow you to just
16 be familiar with what I have given you.
17 And then we'll begin by starting early
18 on with your job referral history, and
19 I'll be asking you questions about
20 certain parts of your history, and
21 asking you to help me out so that I can
22 understand that.
23 Let's take about a five to
24 ten-minute break.
25 (Whereupon a recess was taken.)
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1 Lynch 39
2 (Benefits Fund records marked
3 Exhibits PL-2 and 2A for
4 identification.)
5 (Work history from District
6 Council marked Exhibit PL-3 for
7 identification.)
8 (Skills listed by District
9 Council marked Exhibit PL-6 for
10 identification.)
11 BY MR. MACK:
12 Q I'm going to mark the collection
13 of records or certifications, Mr. Lynch, that
14 you gave me. And I made copies for your
15 counsel, we'll mark those as PL-10.
16 (Five skills certifications
17 marked Exhibit PL-10 for
18 identification.)
19 Q Now, I still believe that there's
20 more that you need to bring us, but that's
21 for the future, if you have them. I know you
22 have other skills, because I see them on your
23 sheet.
24 What I would like to do, Mr.
25 Lynch, is, in the time that's available to us
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1 Lynch 40
2 today before your counsel has to leave, I
3 want to remind you that you will be under
4 oath for the entire time period that you're
5 being questioned, and I'll give you what I
6 would consider to be the general nature of my
7 questions. And you have in front of you the
8 same materials that I have. So, if -- if I
9 have misinterpreted from the papers and the
10 computer records that we have, anything here,
11 you can straighten me out.
12 I have a chronological series of
13 questions that I want to ask you. And if you
14 believe by referring to what I have provided
15 you, that you have a clearer answer or
16 something that I should be aware of, please
17 feel free with your counsel to refer to
18 whatever records that are there; or, most
19 importantly, if you remember something that I
20 should know about particular subjects, and
21 I'm going to raise those subjects so there
22 will be no doubt about what I'm asking you.
23 Do you understand that as a
24 general matter?
25 A Yes.
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1 Lynch 41
2 Q There are particular things that
3 I will spend time on, and all I'm entitled to
4 is your best recollection.
5 Now, the reason your name first
6 came to my attention was because of a
7 complaint in May with respect to the
8 Washington -- the Century Maxim job at
9 Washington and Leroy Street. Do you know
10 what job that is?
11 A Downtown.
12 Q In that complaint --
13 MR. ISAACS: As a point of
14 reference, a complaint in May of 2003?
15 MR. MACK: That's the complaint
16 that came in to my attention; that's
17 correct.
18 Q Basically, that complaint was
19 sent to the District Council, which is what I
20 do, and it has been their job since that
21 complaint came in, to take a look at it to
22 see what happened.
23 As a result of that, certain
24 things happened. But because I felt I needed
25 to understand it more, I then went back and
NATIONAL REPORTING INC. (877) 733-6373
1 Lynch 42
2 wanted to get to know what your job history
3 is. And one of the things that I've noted --
4 and I need your explanation, starting with
5 where I see the out-of-work list, which is in
6 December of 1998, that you frequently added
7 your name to the out-of-work list when the
8 benefits records reflect that you're working.
9 We can go through that in detail,
10 but at least the Benefits Fund records that I
11 have available to me, indicate that even in
12 December of 1998, that when you were added to
13 the list, that you were actually working for
14 Century Maxim or Wood Perfect at that very
15 time.
16 So, what I would ask you -- and
17 feel free to look at the records. Were you
18 working when you first went on the list, or
19 what am I missing there as to why you went on
20 the out-of-work list in December of 1998?
21 (Pause.)
22 Q Let me be the first to admit to
23 you that these are the records maintained by
24 the District Council Benefits Fund. I can
25 subpoena these folks, but it appears to me,
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1 Lynch 43
2 based upon this, that you were actually at
3 work in December of 1998. If that is not
4 true and if you have a more direct
5 recollection as to what happened as to why
6 you went on this list, according to this
7 exhibit, PL-3, how come your name came to be
8 added to the list at that time?
9 MR. ISAACS: Actually, we are
10 comparing PL-3 to PL-2, the second to
11 the last page?
12 MR. MACK: Yes.
13 MR. ISAACS: You're looking at
14 Durrelle Wood and comparing it to Wood
15 Perfect?
16 MR. MACK: Yes.
17 (Pause.)
18 Q I don't want to be listening in
19 to your interactions here with your counsel.
20 MR. ISAACS: Give me one second.
21 I need to get answers.
22 MR. MACK: There are going to be
23 a whole series of questions here in 1999
24 that are very similar to the last
25 question.
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1 Lynch 44
2 (Witness and Mr. Isaacs exited
3 the deposition room, and returned.)
4 Q Have you gentlemen had enough
5 time?
6 A Yes.
7 MR. ISAACS: Yes.
8 Q My question is this: When I see,
9 Mr. Lynch, you being added to the out-of-work
10 list, you can assume my practice was to go
11 and try to determine whether or not, as far
12 as the benefits records -- Benefits Fund
13 records go, as to whether you were working or
14 not.
15 Their will be a lot of questions,
16 but that's really my first question with
17 respect to you going on the out-of-work list.
18 That's the first page I have, that the
19 12/3/98 1998 situation; and my question is:
20 Were you working at that time or not, if you
21 remember?
22 A I was working, and I didn't take
23 my name off the list.
24 Q Did you not understand back in
25 '98, about how the out-of-work list worked,
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1 Lynch 45
2 or why did you put your name on?
3 I'm really just looking for your
4 help in explaining it to me; that's all.
5 A I worked and I left my name on
6 the list. The jobs were only a couple of
7 weeks or whatever. I didn't call up and say:
8 Take my name off the list.
9 Q Now, we'll go through a number of
10 them as we move along. But it appears that
11 that was the fact on more than one occasion;
12 let's put it that way. And again, whether
13 there are any consequences to that, doesn't
14 have anything to do with me; all right.
15 As we get into to more recent
16 times, there are some specific things that I
17 need to talk to you about. It's at least
18 theoretically possible that you weren't
19 working for some period. I want to make sure
20 I give you the benefit of the doubt so you
21 can explain it to me. We'll go slowly and
22 methodically here.
23 I see you were added to the list
24 in February of '99, and you were working at
25 that time, at least it appears from the
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1 Lynch 46
2 Benefits Fund record. You were working in
3 February of '99 when you go on the list
4 again. Take your time.
5 (Pause.)
6 A Yes. To the best of my
7 recollection, yes.
8 Q I see in March, the same thing;
9 you're on the list again; and at least it
10 appears to me, I think -- I may have missed
11 this -- but I see you on the list and you're
12 working there pretty regularly there in 1999.
13 But take a moment to check it
14 yourself.
15 A Saturdays and Sundays don't count
16 on the out-of-work list.
17 Q Let me talk to you about that,
18 Mr. Lynch, because I have noticed that as
19 well, and I have had the benefit of going
20 over a lot of shop steward reports from
21 Madison Square Garden where there's weekend
22 time there, but I only found you on one shop
23 steward report, at least in 2002, and six
24 months of 2003. So, I know you regularly get
25 reported -- and we'll get into that the next
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1 Lynch 47
2 time you and I meet, but can you explain to
3 me why I don't find you on the shop steward
4 reports at Madison Square Garden?
5 A No.
6 Q So, we'll spend time on that.
7 But is it fair to say that from time to time
8 you would work at Madison Square Garden as a
9 carpenter?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And I'm very interested in the
12 Madison Square Garden situation, and I have a
13 lot of shop steward reports from there.
14 How does it come to pass that you
15 get that opportunity, Mr. Lynch?
16 A I go and I can shape and I know
17 when they are looking for carpenters and I
18 can get a job.
19 Q Maybe I'll wait until we get to
20 2002 and 2003 when I actually have the shop
21 steward reports. And I'm trying to get the
22 ones for the earlier time period. And
23 although I see hours reported for you at
24 Madison Square Garden, as I say, I only find
25 you on one shop steward report; and I think
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1 Lynch 48
2 you have told me that you can't explain it to
3 me.
4 A I'm not the shop steward.
5 Q I know you're not the shop
6 steward, but you were working there, and
7 presumably you should be on the shop steward
8 report; isn't that fair? Whoever the shop
9 steward is?
10 A Yes.
11 Q We'll ask you that. I'll spend
12 some time going over those reports with you
13 at another time. But my question now is:
14 How do you know or how do you get selected to
15 work at Madison Square Garden?
16 A I shape it; that's it.
17 Q Do you shape it every weekend, or
18 only under certain conditions --
19 A I know what is going on at the
20 Garden. There's a program there at the
21 Garden, you know.
22 Q I do know that.
23 A The public knows that. That's
24 it.
25 Q In terms of your getting work,
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1 Lynch 49
2 I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't mind
3 getting that work if they need it. So, what
4 I'm asking you, in terms of your practice,
5 is: How do you know when to shape or when
6 not to shape?
7 A Because I'm twenty years a
8 carpenter and I know what is going on in the
9 Garden, I know that. Everybody knows what's
10 going on in the Garden.
11 Q Well, I don't know, and that's
12 why I'm asking you.
13 A You don't have to shape it.
14 Q I don't have to shape it and
15 that's why I need your help in helping me
16 understand it.
17 A That's it.
18 Q So, the question I'm going to be
19 asking you, and maybe not tonight because we
20 wanted to cover some of these early
21 situations, but this is something you can
22 think about for next time. And that is how
23 you get work at Madison Square Garden. What
24 is the procedure?
25 One of the reasons I'm interested
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1 Lynch 50
2 in it, is that I can tell you after having
3 looked at the shop steward reports from 2002
4 and 2003, that you're not on them, except for
5 one. So, I'll ask the shop stewards, but I
6 also want to ask you.
7 I mean, theoretically, those
8 could be false reports that you didn't work
9 there, but my assumption, since your benefits
10 were being paid, is that you did work there.
11 And I'm interested in finding out how you
12 came to be able to work at Madison Square
13 Garden, and what the process is.
14 We'll leave that for the next
15 time; okay, Mr. Lynch?
16 A Yes.
17 Q You understand what my concern
18 is?
19 A Yes.
20 Q You'll see in your benefit
21 history that there are a lot of times that
22 Madison Square Garden is there. And what I
23 did was, I tried to go to the Madison Square
24 Garden shop steward report, and PL-2A has, on
25 the first page, two entries for Madison
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1 Lynch 51
2 Square Garden. And I see your hours there in
3 early 2002, to be precise, April, the period
4 ending April 21, 2002, 37 hours there. And
5 then I see down at the bottom of that first
6 page on 2A for April 14, the prior week, that
7 you have 29 hours there.
8 So, I went to those shop steward
9 reports for Madison Square Garden, and I
10 didn't see your name. So, really, in
11 essence, I'm trying to figure out what is
12 going on there. That's something that you
13 can think about for the next time.
14 MR. ISAACS: Mr. Lynch and I will
15 definitely discuss it. He may never be
16 able to give you an answer. The person
17 who may be able to give you the answer
18 will be the shop steward. But he and I
19 will discuss the issue for the next time
20 we meet.
21 MR. MACK: Great.
22 Q Let me ask you an easy question,
23 which I know you can help me on. And that
24 is, how many years have you done work for
25 Century Maxim? I'm looking for an estimate.
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1 Lynch 52
2 Approximately how many years have you been a
3 regular employee of Century Maxim?
4 A Off and on for five or six years;
5 off and on.
6 Q Now, how would you describe that
7 contract? What is the nature of the work?
8 A How do you mean?
9 Q What type of work does Century
10 Maxim do?
11 A Concrete.
12 Q Would you consider yourself an
13 experienced concrete carpenter?
14 A Top of the line.
15 Q I bet you are. I have heard only
16 good things about your work.
17 A I get laid off, too.
18 Q I understand that.
19 A I can do it. I was never fired
20 for not doing the work.
21 Q Would you say five or six years
22 is a fair estimate of how long you have
23 actually done work off and on for Century
24 Maxim?
25 A Yes.
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1 Lynch 53
2 Q And are they a good contractor to
3 work for.
4 Are they the kind of organization
5 that you would like to work for?
6 Do they run a professional
7 company? Are they fair in their
8 administration --
9 A They are like every other union
10 company.
11 Q I don't know if that's good or
12 bad.
13 A That's it.
14 Q I mean, is it a contractor that
15 you prefer to work at, or prefer not to work
16 at?
17 A I'm a union carpenter. For my
18 week's wages, I can work with any company.
19 Q I understand that, but I'm asking
20 based upon your experience, and your benefits
21 record reflects a lot of time with Century
22 Maxim -- I don't want to put words in your
23 mouth, but they are not a contractor that you
24 would not like to work for?
25 A Every contractor is the same. I
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1 Lynch 54
2 won't bad-mouth any company. That's it.
3 Q I may be asking you to say good
4 things about it, but I understand your
5 answer. You're not going to commit beyond
6 any other.
7 How would you describe the nature
8 of their projects that they have.
9 Are they large projects? Small
10 projects?
11 A All kinds. Big and small.
12 Q I don't know that I need to go
13 through all of these in '99, but I would say
14 this: There are a number of occasions where
15 I see you on the list when your benefit
16 records in '99 reflect that you were working
17 for a variety of contractors, including
18 Century Maxim. So, you feel free to take a
19 look at your records; but is there any time
20 in 1999 when you put yourself on the list
21 when you're not working?
22 MR. ISAACS: Could you repeat
23 that?
24 MR. MACK: Sure. Yes.
25 I see Mr. Lynch added to the
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1 Lynch 55
2 list -- I'm only talking about '99 for
3 the moment -- added to the list, and on
4 those occasions, starting in December of
5 '98 --
6 Q Is there any occasion, and if so,
7 I would like you to point it out to me --
8 MR. MACK: Where he was added to
9 the list, but actually not working at
10 the time?
11 MR. ISAACS: I understand the
12 question. I guess that's something that
13 I would absolutely need a little time to
14 review these --
15 MR. MACK: Let's save that nor
16 next time.
17 MR. ISAACS: Fair enough.
18 MR. MACK: You can go over it.
19 You have the same records I have. You
20 have the work referral history. If
21 there's any occasion in '98, December of
22 '98 through the end of '99 in which Mr.
23 Lynch in fact was out of work when he
24 put himself on the list, I would like to
25 have that pointed out to me, so I can
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1 Lynch 56
2 consider that.
3 Is that question reasonably
4 clear?
5 MR. ISAACS: Yes, you want to
6 know whether, at any point, he is
7 legitimately out of work.
8 MR. MACK: Yes.
9 MR. ISAACS: I understand.
10 Q I would like to turn to 2000 --
11 MR. ISAACS: In the same exhibit?
12 MR. MACK: For today I'll always
13 be sort of working off the job referral
14 history, which is PL-3.
15 Q Let me ask some general
16 questions. These may be easier.
17 Let me say this: I'm as strong
18 as the District Council on the benefit of
19 adding skills and developing ever-increasing
20 competence and professionalism. So, the mere
21 fact that I ask you about adding a skill
22 doesn't mean that I am being critical of
23 that. I'm just trying to find out what the
24 circumstances were under which you added
25 skills, or dropped skills, which happened
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2 from time to time.
3 Now, I see that in early -- late
4 '99, but more importantly in early 2000, you
5 added CPR; correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Was that as a result of taking a
8 course?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And then I see basically in
11 October of 2000, you add 10-hour OSHA, that's
12 10-hour CT, which means OSHA.
13 A Yes.
14 Q One of the things I wanted to ask
15 you about, which I think you're going to try
16 to find for me, is your certificate for that
17 10-hour OSHA?
18 A Yes.
19 Q But I'm also asking you if you
20 remember how you took that course.
21 Did you take it at the carpenters
22 school?
23 A Yes. I done that OSHA and the
24 CPR.
25 Q All at the school?
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2 A Yes.
3 Q Now, in November, November 13 of
4 2000, I see you deleted, on 11/13/00, drywall
5 and finished woodwork.
6 What I wanted to ask you, if you
7 remember -- this is a long time ago -- what
8 were the reasons that you deleted those two
9 skills, if you remember?
10 This is going to be a part of a
11 whole series of questions here, because you
12 also added a number of skills right in that
13 time period.
14 A I don't remember. I don't
15 remember.
16 Q Okay. That's a question for you
17 to think about.
18 MR. ISAACS: I assume, Mr. Mack,
19 that you may have similar questions
20 dealing with 11/14, 11/22, 11/22,
21 11/22 --
22 MR. MACK: There's a period
23 there -- let me make life -- and you may
24 not be prepared to answer these
25 questions, but at least you should look
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2 upon the period of October and November
3 of 2000, and you may want to go through
4 it. Because, to the uninitiated, non-
5 carpenter in me, I see Mr. Lynch adding
6 skills and deleting skills.
7 Q Then you are on the out-of-work
8 list. You add yourself on November 13 of
9 2000 to the out-of-work list. And the
10 benefits records reflect that you're actually
11 at work for Century Maxim during that period.
12 So, my question is as to why
13 you're going on the out-of-work list. But
14 you're then, on November 14, adding certain
15 skills. You add specifically sexual
16 harassment, wood framing, and protection, at
17 11:54 a.m. Then on the very next day --
18 MR. ISAACS: You're referring to
19 11/14?
20 MR. MACK: Yes. Take a moment to
21 go through this.
22 Do you see "Skill added:
23 Protection, wood framing," 11/14 --
24 MR. ISAACS: I'm looking at 8:54.
25 MR. MACK: As you may remember
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2 from last week, these are California
3 times. So, you have to add three hours.
4 MR. ISAACS: Right.
5 Did we ever find out why it's
6 California time?
7 MR. MACK: That's where their
8 mainframe is, or some computer reason.
9 Perhaps Jason can inform us of that.
10 Then on the very next day, Mr.
11 Lynch is referred out to a job to
12 Century Maxim, West Third Street and
13 LaGuardia Place, in which the very
14 skills that he added were required for
15 that referral.
16 Q My question is going to be -- I'm
17 giving you some idea of the questions. And
18 the referrals -- the referrals are in PL-6; -
19 you can take a look at it. I have these
20 questions almost all the time, because
21 there's a side of me which says: Why did you
22 add protection and wood framing and then, a
23 day or so later, get a job in which those
24 skills were the ones necessary for the job;
25 and of course you go to Century Maxim at West
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2 3rd and LaGuardia Place. And the reason I
3 have that data is, if you take a look at PL-6
4 and turn to the dispatch, you'll see that the
5 skills for that job as a shop steward -- and
6 it looks like John Greany is the gentleman
7 who made the call that day, that precisely
8 the two skills you add a couple of days
9 before, are protection and wood framing.
10 My question is: Why did you add
11 wood framing and protection, which you did
12 not have before? You are, of course, working
13 at Century Maxim at this time already. So,
14 there's a question as to why you're on the
15 out-of-work list at all.
16 So, the first question is: Where
17 were you actually working for Century Maxim
18 on November 13 when you added yourself, and
19 then why did you put the wood framing and
20 protection skills on, on the 14th, and then,
21 of course, the very next day you're
22 basically -- you accept a referral to Century
23 Maxim for whom you're already working, that
24 calls for those two very skills that you
25 didn't have approximately 30 hours before.
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2 So, my questions -- I'll perhaps just
3 summarize these, because you may want to take
4 some time to look at these records.
5 Did you have any contact with
6 anyone at 608 about this job, before the
7 referral?
8 Also, how was it that you
9 decided -- putting aside the fact that you're
10 on the out-of-work list, even though you're
11 working for Century Maxim at the time, how
12 did you come to add those skills the day
13 before?
14 And did you have any contact with
15 Mr. Greany concerning this new Century Maxim
16 job on which you would be the shop steward,
17 before the referral was called in?
18 Those are the questions. Why
19 don't you take a few moments to think about
20 the answers to those, and feel free to look
21 at the records.
22 Now, just so we all can do this
23 together, and I know it's a quarter to 6:00
24 here, or close to it, if you look at PL-6,
25 which is the whole series of your referrals,
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2 and they are right in chronological order,
3 what they tell me is that on that very date,
4 you'll see it there, just so -- you'll see
5 why I need your help on these. It's the
6 fourth document in, and the first part of it
7 is the actual dispatch of you, to send you to
8 Century Maxim, which shows John Greany as the
9 gentleman who called.
10 The job starts the very next day,
11 November 16 at 7:00 a.m. And you'll see
12 among concrete, which of course Century Maxim
13 does, and the construction steward, but there
14 are also two skills which you didn't have on
15 your skill classifications 30 hours before,
16 protection and wood framing.
17 The next sheet is the handwritten
18 document maintained at the District Council,
19 that shows about this job. It's the
20 reflection of John Greany's call, describing
21 what the skills are and that are necessary,
22 which is the document which is the basis for
23 the dispatch, which is the previous page.
24 So, these are the documents I
25 look at, and I think I phrased all my
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1 Lynch 64
2 questions to you:
3 Why are you on the out-of-work
4 list?
5 Why did you add the skills?
6 Did you have any contact at all
7 with anyone from 608 about this new Century
8 Maxim job?
9 I'm having a hard time
10 understanding, you know, why, given the fact
11 that you're already working for Century Maxim
12 at the time, that you would be eligible for
13 this shop steward job.
14 So, basically I'm looking for
15 your answers.
16 Recognize that I don't mean to be
17 harsh in my questioning, but I just don't
18 understand why this happens. There may be
19 perfectly good reasons, but I don't have the
20 reasons; and you're the best person I can ask
21 for the answers.
22 MR. MACK: Are those questions
23 reasonably precise, Mr. Isaacs?
24 MR. ISAACS: Yes.
25 MR. MACK: Do you want to take
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2 time to think about those?
3 MR. ISAACS: Absolutely.
4 MR. MACK: Is that time today or
5 in the ensuing future?
6 MR. ISAACS: In the ensuing
7 future.
8 MR. MACK: Every one of my
9 questions that go on from here are
10 similar to those.
11 MR. ISAACS: I understand.
12 MR. MACK: Let's set a date.
13 These are important questions to me.
14 I want to stress this: That all
15 of the questions that I ask -- that
16 doesn't mean that anything is wrong. It
17 looks like a random system to me, but
18 perhaps I'm not smart enough to figure
19 it out.
20 If you go through the records
21 that I have provided here today, you'll
22 see a number of situations precisely
23 like this one, that I will be asking the
24 very same questions about.
25 I guess another factor -- in your
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2 preparations, Steve, for the future:
3 We'll eventually get to the job that Mr.
4 Lynch was removed on --
5 MR. ISAACS: Sometime in May of
6 2003?
7 MR. MACK: I think it's June.
8 You know, the questions there
9 will be the 50/50 questions, and the
10 questions will be: Mr. Lynch, why were
11 you removed? What happened?
12 One of my quests is to find out
13 why are shop stewards being removed, and
14 are they fairly being removed when they
15 are removed.
16 I do want you to understand, Mr.
17 Lynch, that my purpose here is to hear
18 your side of these events, and I don't
19 want to be limited just to the records
20 or the District Council's perspective.
21 There's not a single piece of paper that
22 I have been able to find from
23 Mr. McGrath, who I think is the person
24 who removed you, which documents why you
25 were removed; not one.
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1 Lynch 67
2 If you tell me to speak to
3 Mr. McGrath, you'll be certain that I
4 will speak to Mr. McGrath eventually.
5 You can tell me to speak to John
6 Greany, but that doesn't help me.
7 I can speak to all of those
8 gentlemen, but that doesn't help me, in
9 that I want to know your side of these
10 events, your perspective on these
11 questions. That's why you are here. I
12 would not be doing my job if I looked at
13 these things and if I didn't hear from
14 you. So, I need your help and your
15 information to help me; is that clear?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 MR. MACK: Would it be opportune
18 for you to have a short adjournment?
19 I would like to get a date set
20 for Mr. Lynch's return.
21 MR. ISAACS: Sure.
22 MR. MACK: Also, don't forget the
23 Madison Square Garden question, because
24 theirs a lot of time and benefits
25 reported for Madison Square Garden. I
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1 Lynch 68
2 have no records of any kinds reflecting,
3 other than the benefits records,
4 reflecting Mr. Lynn working there. I
5 have one shop steward report in which he
6 is reflected.
7 Off the record while we try to
8 agree on an adjourned date.
9 (Discussion off the record.)
10 MR. MACK: We'll adjourn until
11 April 26th at 4:00 p.m. with Mr. Lynch.
12 Are there any questions that you
13 would like to ask me?
14 I would like to finish the next
15 time you arrive. I'm hoping that you
16 can go through the records. You can
17 anticipate my questions. You don't need
18 to be a rocket scientist to know what
19 I'm trying to figure out, once you have
20 the records.
21 Is there anything that you would
22 like to ask me?
23 MR. ISAACS: I have a very good
24 idea of what you would like to ask.
25 I'll discuss it with my client, and
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1 Lynch 69
2 we'll see what the answers are.
3 MR. MACK: Terrific. I'll see
4 you on the 26th.
5 Is there anything that my
6 colleagues here from the District
7 Council and the U.S. Attorneys Office
8 would like to add.
9 MS. ZORNBERG: Nothing to add.
10 MR. FUIMAN: Nothing to add.
11 MR. MACK: We are adjourned until
12 April 26th.
13 (Time noted: 5:50 o'clock p.m.)
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2 STATE OF NEW YORK ) ss: 3 COUNTY OF NEW YORK) 4 5 I, PATRICK LYNCH, the witness 6 herein, having read the foregoing testimony 7 of the pages of this deposition, do hereby 8 certify it to be a true and correct 9 transcript, subject to the corrections, if 10 any, shown on the attached page. 11 12 * * * 13 14 15 16 PATRICK LYNCH 17 18 Subscribed and sworn to before me 19 this day of 2004. 20 21 22 NOTARY PUBLIC 23 24 25
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2 INDEX
3 EXHIBITS
4 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
5 PL-1 Notice of Deposition 27
PL-2, 2A Benefits Fund records 39
6 PL-3 Work history 39
PL-6 Skills listed by District
7 Council 39
PL-10 Five skills certifications 39
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1 72 2 3 CERTIFICATE 4 STATE OF NEW YORK ) ss: 5 COUNTY OF ROCKLAND) 6 7 I, HAROLD RABINOWITZ, a Shorthand 8 Reporter and Notary Public within and for the 9 State of New York, do hereby certify: 10 That the within is a true and accurate 11 transcript of the testimony taken on the 15th day 12 of April, 2004. 13 I further certify that I am not 14 related to any of the parties to the proceeding by 15 blood or marriage, and that I am in no way 16 interested in the outcome of this matter. 17 IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto 18 set my hand this 26th day of April , 2004. 19 20 HAROLD RABINOWITZ 21 22 23 24 25
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