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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiffs,
Index No.
-against- 90 CIV 5722.
(CSH)
DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY
AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED
BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND
JOINERS OF AMERICA, et.al.,
Defendant.
x
Independent Investigator Deposition
April 26, 2004
4:20 o'clock p.m.
CONTINUED DEPOSITION of PATRICK
LYNCH, taken by the Independent Investigator,
Walter Mack, Esq., pursuant to letter subpoena, at
the offices of Doar, Rieck & Mack, Esqs., 217
Broadway, 7th Floor, New York, New York
10007-2911, before Stewart Nissenbaum, a Shorthand
Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New
York.
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2 APPEARANCE S:
3
4 DOAR RIECK & MACK
217 Broadway - 7th Floor
5 New York, New York 10007-2911
6 BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.
Independent Investigator
7
8 O'DWYER & BERNSTEIN, ESQS.
Attorneys for Union
9 52 Duane Street
New York, New York 10007
10 BY: JASON FUIMAN, ESQ.
11
12 KOEHLER & ISAACS, ESQS.
13 Attorneys for the Witness
120 Broadway - 29th Floor
14 New York, New York 10271
15 BY: STEVEN ISAACS, ESQ.
16
17 LISA ZORNBERG, ESQ.
Assistant United States Attorney
18 United States Department of Justice
86 Chambers Street
19 New York, New York 10007
20
21 ALSO PRESENT:
22 DONALD SOBOCIENSKI
23
24 *
25
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2 MR. MACK: On the record.
3 PATRICK LYNCH, the witness
4 herein, having been previously duly sworn,
5 resumed and testified further as follows:
6 EXAMINATION (Continuing)
7 BY MR. MACK:
8 Q We are continuing our prior
9 proceeding; and I know, Mr. Lynch, you might
10 be disappointed if I don't go through all the
11 warnings and everything again. But
12 basically, I'm sure, with the benefit of your
13 counsel and your having met with your
14 counsel, that I don't need to do so, because
15 you understand your rights.
16 I'll remind you that you are
17 still under oath, so that the most important
18 obligation, obviously, that I went through
19 last time, is to be absolutely accurate and
20 truthful. You have obviously the right to
21 speak with your counsel at virtually any time
22 that you wish to, and if anything is unclear
23 or anything, that you need me to ask you a
24 clearer question, all you have to do is say
25 so.
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2 We are going to try to proceed
3 efficiently today, and we have a lot of
4 different things to cover, and I want you to
5 make sure you take your time, listen to the
6 question, get the benefit of whatever advise
7 you need, and then answer truthfully and
8 accurately.
9 Now, the topics that we will be
10 covering today, I think I made some effort to
11 give you a head's up as to what would be the
12 general topics, but one of the first ones
13 will deal with your time on the out-of-work
14 list and how that contrasts with your
15 benefits history. So, we have a number of
16 topics, but I would like to continue, that's
17 where we stopped last time, and we'll go
18 through that; and then we are going to spend
19 some time in your explaining to me some of
20 the other questions I have, having to do with
21 Madison Square Garden, and then also the
22 Century Maxim job on Washington and Leroy
23 Street and 50/50 situation on that job.
24 So that gives you some idea of
25 the topics we'll cover today. And I think I
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2 told you last time that one of the things,
3 and this may be primarily for Jason's
4 benefit, who, you remember, represents the
5 District Council, is that there was a
6 complaint filed in May of 2003 which
7 mentioned you specifically and the Washington
8 and Leroy Street project, and the complaint
9 was, that only company men are hired there;
10 and, two, which are part and parcel of the
11 same situation, that the 50/50 is not
12 observed. So that subject came up in May of
13 2003, specifically, involving you, by name,
14 and that job. And as I mentioned to the
15 District Council last week, that one of the
16 things we are looking into is whether those
17 matters were followed up, and if they were
18 followed up, what, if any, action was taken
19 about it. I'll be asking you about that
20 today.
21 And then it is my understanding
22 based upon, I think, what you said last time,
23 but also from other information, that you
24 actually were removed, you were removed as
25 shop steward from that job in 2003.
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2 Do you remember approximately
3 when that was, that you were removed,
4 Mr. Lynch?
5 A June.
6 Q June of 2003?
7 A Yes.
8 Q That removal was done by whom; by
9 a business agent?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Maurice McGrath?
12 A Yes.
13 Q We are going to cover that topic
14 today, because I have no paperwork at all
15 directly explaining that or the reasons for
16 that, or what happened there. So I don't
17 have anything to specifically show you,
18 because I don't have it; I don't have a
19 report and I don't have any specific
20 documentation of the time of your removal or
21 the circumstances of it.
22 So, let me ask you this: Do you
23 have any documents at all that concern your
24 removal from that job as a shop steward?
25 A No. I was removed; and that was
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2 it.
3 Q Were you given any sort of
4 written matter or description, or anything of
5 that nature?
6 A No.
7 Q Before we begin, let me make
8 certain that there are no other questions or
9 matters that you would like to raise before
10 we begin today. Anything on your mind, Mr.
11 Lynch?
12 A No.
13 MR. MACK: Steve, anything you
14 would like to say, add or delete?
15 MR. ISAACS: No.
16 MR. MACK: Jason?
17 MR. FUIMAN: Nothing.
18 MR. MACK: Lisa?
19 MS. ZORNBERG: Nothing.
20 MR. MACK: Let's go.
21 Q Now, I think you may have
22 answered this last time, but how did you
23 first come to do work for Century Maxim, when
24 did that start? I think you gave me an idea
25 last time.
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2 A Probably in '95, '96; whatever.
3 Q And how regularly did you work
4 for Century Maxim, you know, in those years
5 1995, 1996 --
6 A When they had work, I worked for
7 them. That was it.
8 Q Was there any other contractor?
9 A Yes, I worked with Wood Works,
10 those other companies there, when --
11 Q In terms of the contractor you
12 did the most work with, would it be Century
13 Maxim or someone else? I'm talking about the
14 1995 to 2000 period.
15 A Well, Century Maxim and --
16 MR. ISAACS: I'm referring my
17 client to his benefit --
18 A Century Maxim were probably the
19 most.
20 Q Fine. I would like to sort of
21 start with a specific situation. I think
22 what I would like you to have in front of
23 you, so that when we go through, we have
24 PL-3, these numbers mean nothing other than
25 to help me identify the records; PL-2B, which
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2 is pretty much a record of your benefits.
3 MR. ISAACS: I have 2 and 2A.
4 MR. FUIMAN: I have 2 and 2A
5 also.
6 MR. MACK: So let me -- this is
7 just a more -- 2A, 2B.
8 Q Then I also would like you to
9 have PL-6, if you have that.
10 MR. ISAACS: No.
11 MS. ZORNBERG: PL-6 was given out
12 last time.
13 MR. MACK: Yes.
14 MR. ISAACS: I have 6.
15 MR. MACK: Great.
16 Q If you would keep those exhibits
17 handy, I think most of my questions will
18 concern them.
19 Now, I guess the first question
20 on my mind is, I see you added to the list
21 basically on December 3, 1998, and at least
22 my benefits records -- and again, it is your
23 memory here, these benefit records are
24 designed as an aid, but it certainly means
25 that if there's a challenge, I can directly
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2 subpoena the contractor. It seems to me that
3 at the period that you put yourself on the
4 list there, you are working for Wood Perfect?
5 A Uh-huh.
6 Q I guess my first question would
7 be, were you in fact working when you put
8 yourself on the list in December 1998?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Were you misinformed or unaware
11 of the need, at least as I understood it, or
12 understand it, that you're supposed to be out
13 of work when you go on the out-of-work list?
14 A You have 12 days to work, if you
15 go out of work, you have twelve days to work.
16 If the job doesn't last for twelve days, Wood
17 Perfect, I was only -- whatever that was -- I
18 didn't have to take my name off the list.
19 Q That's your interpretation of it,
20 but the District Council doesn't agree with
21 that interpretation. In other words, if you
22 go to work --
23 A Well, they sent me out to work,
24 they should have taken my name off it.
25 Q Let's go slowly. I want to
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2 reiterate what I said last time. I'm an
3 investigator. I have no power to discipline,
4 I have no authority to do anything other than
5 recommend. And my purpose here today, as we
6 proceed tonight, is just to understand what
7 the facts are, recognizing that I have
8 records that I can rely upon; but more
9 important to me is your view and your
10 testimony about matters which appear to me to
11 be one way, but may be another way.
12 And so at least it is not my
13 understanding that you can work up to eleven
14 days before you're considered working. In
15 fact, it's my understanding of the
16 out-of-work list, every day is counted. And
17 when your're working, you can't be on the
18 out-of-work list. If I'm wrong, the District
19 Council can explain that. If you understood
20 that it was all right for you to be working
21 on the out-of-work list, tell me that's the
22 fact, because this is a relatively minor
23 matter, because later on, you're working for
24 many more than eleven days; you are working
25 week after week after week for Century Maxim,
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2 and you go on the list. I'm interested in
3 your explanation, at least for this
4 particular occasion.
5 A I probably did work when my name
6 was on the list.
7 Q Let's go to the next one,
8 February -- let's go to March 1999. If you
9 look at PL-3, you can follow along with me
10 here.
11 It appears to me that you're
12 adding yourself to the list on February 23,
13 1999, at least it appears to me that on that
14 day, you worked for Wood Perfect, and then I
15 see West Side Drywall, if I'm reading that
16 correctly. You can read along with me here.
17 Again, basically, I'm asking the
18 question there, when you went back on the
19 list in February of '99, were you working at
20 the time that you went on list?
21 A Yes, I probably was, yeah.
22 Q What am I missing here? Is it
23 because you don't understand how the
24 out-of-work list works? What is happening;
25 why are you listing yourself when you
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2 actually are at work?
3 A These jobs don't last too long,
4 so I have to keep working, that's why. And
5 if things --
6 Q I never see you taking yourself
7 off the list.
8 A That's right. I got to keep
9 working.
10 Q I understand. One of the things
11 that I'm investigating here is whether the
12 out-of-work list, as a method of helping
13 carpenters work and get work, is an effective
14 mechanism. And if it's not helping at all,
15 you know, and basically people put themselves
16 on whether they are working or not, that's
17 something I need to know. I have no
18 authority to change the list or change rules.
19 I have authority only to gather data. Right
20 now, I don't think there's a journeyman who
21 is a carpenter who wouldn't say the same
22 thing you just told me, which is: I got to
23 work. I mean, everybody -- they wouldn't be
24 a carpenter unless they felt they needed to
25 work. Wouldn't you agree with me on that?
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2 A I agree. I probably was working.
3 Q I appreciate your -- again, you
4 know, a lot of this is history, it is a long
5 time ago, and I'm just trying to understand,
6 you know, the reality of how the list works
7 from time to time.
8 I see you going -- again, you can
9 follow along with me on PL-6. Let me make
10 sure that this referral is there.
11 I see you being -- there's a West
12 Side Drywall, which is the second page.
13 A Uh-huh.
14 Q You're being sent out there as a
15 shop steward, right?
16 A Yes. Yes.
17 Q So at least from my perception,
18 you were working at the time, and yet you
19 proceeded and, you know, were assigned to
20 West Side Drywall there on February 25th,
21 1999.
22 Would that be a fair reading of
23 that document?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Now, I see you going back on the
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2 out-of-work list on March 9th, 1999. We are
3 going to go through the '99 period quickly.
4 I want to make sure I haven't misread the
5 data here. You're going back on March 9.
6 Were you in fact working at that time, when
7 you go on the list?
8 A I probably wasn't working that
9 day. I don't know.
10 Q Take a look, it says West Side
11 Drywall --
12 A 28 hours. That's not a week.
13 MR. ISAACS: We are looking at
14 PL-2B, which indicates on 2/28, my
15 client was working for West Side
16 Drywall, indicates 28 hours, which we
17 believe is approximately four days. The
18 next set of benefits is 3/14; unless
19 there's something we are not seeing.
20 Q Look at the Wood Perfect as well,
21 2/27/99 for 28 hours. And then add together
22 Darken Construction, West Side Drywall,
23 that's 165, plus Madison Square Garden.
24 MR. ISAACS: March 31?
25 MR. MACK: Yes.
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2 A I don't know.
3 Q One question I would have, and
4 again, I mean, we can subpoena these
5 contractors, okay. But Darken Construction,
6 for the period ending March 31, '99, credited
7 you 95 hours, West Side Drywall for the same
8 period, March 31, 1999, credited you for 70
9 hours.
10 A I didn't work for them on the
11 same day. I worked for the two of them, but
12 they were late paying the benefits.That's
13 all I can say to that.
14 Q My question really is, when you
15 went on the out-of-work list on March 9, back
16 on the out-of-work list, my question is, were
17 you working during that time, if you
18 remember?
19 MR. ISAACS: If you remember.
20 A I don't remember.
21 MR. ISAACS: That's the answer.
22 Q Now, let's deal with the Madison
23 Square Garden topic while we are there.
24 That's one of the first situations, and you
25 are in fact credited in the week ending March
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2 14, '99, with nine hours at Madison Square
3 Garden. I think I gave you last time, a
4 collection for 2002 or a good portion of 2003
5 of the shop steward reports at Madison Square
6 Garden. I think I brought to your attention
7 that your name was only on one shop steward
8 report, although you are credited -- I'm
9 trying to deal with the whole topic now,
10 rather than go through it each time I see it
11 in your benefits. My first question is: How
12 do you come to get hours at Madison Square
13 Garden; how does that actually happen?
14 A I shape the job and they are
15 looking for carpenters.
16 Q Do you shape the job on any
17 particular days of the week?
18 A I shape it the days that I know
19 there's something going on.
20 Q How do you know something is on,
21 some event?
22 A I'm a carpenter, I'm in the
23 business, I know when they need carpenters.
24 I learned that.
25 Q You learn that by talking to some
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2 of your fellow carpenters?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Are any of the fellow carpenters
5 who help you with that, or help with that
6 information, people who work regularly at
7 Madison Square Garden?
8 A Some of them do; some don't.
9 Q How about telling me the ones who
10 do work at Madison Square Garden that let you
11 know when there's work there?
12 A No. What I'm saying is, I get
13 the information, I know how to get it myself.
14 Q I'm asking you whether you get it
15 from any of the carpenters who actually work
16 at Madison -- Listen to the question, it is
17 not a difficult question. Recognize this:
18 You're not talking to someone who has any
19 power to discipline anybody. I'm just
20 looking for facts about how you get Madison
21 Square Garden work, and why you're never on
22 the shop steward report, as far as I'm
23 finding, in the time period.
24 A I get my information from
25 carpenters, but not necessarily from
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2 carpenters that work in the Garden.
3 Q Not necessary, but do some of
4 them tell you -- I don't know if there's
5 anything wrong with that. Maybe I'm missing
6 something. If you had a friend that worked
7 regularly at Madison Square Garden, what's
8 the problem in simply saying, my friend
9 so-and-so tells me there's going to be work
10 this week?
11 A Nobody tells me that; you know
12 what I'm saying? I can get it myself; the
13 information that I need, I can get myself.
14 Q Can you explain to me how you get
15 that information? Just give me the
16 mechanism, how you get it.
17 A Because I'm a carpenter for the
18 last fifteen years, and I know I know
19 what's going on in the Garden.
20 Q You read the newspaper and you
21 know there's a sporting event?
22 A Whatever it takes.
23 Q I understand that. I still don't
24 understand, though, whether or not -- and
25 just tell me if there are people who are at
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2 Madison Square Garden who tell you that this
3 a good weekend, Pat, to work?
4 A There's electricians, there's
5 laborers, there's everybody there. So I can
6 get that information that way.
7 Q Is that how you get the
8 information?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Do you get it from any
11 carpenters?
12 A No.
13 Q I'm going to hand out these
14 exhibits here. These are the Madison Square
15 Garden shop steward reports for all of 2002
16 and I think half of 2003.
17 You feel free to refer to them.
18 That exhibit is, for the record, PL-12.
19 PL-12 deals with shop steward reports
20 furnished to me by the District Council for
21 Madison Square Garden with a pay week
22 starting December 31st, 2001, through and
23 including June 2nd, 2003.
24 So that's the period that's
25 covered. I will have, because I've asked for
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2 them, I don't have them today, the shop
3 steward reports that will cover '99, 2000,
4 and 2001.
5 (Shop steward reports, Madison
6 Square Garden, 12/31/01-6/2/03, marked
7 Exhibit PL-12 for identification.)
8 Q There's only one shop steward
9 report that has your name on it, so you
10 should turn to it. And that is the pay week
11 starting April 8, 2002.
12 Just so that you understand why
13 I'm asking these questions, when I go to your
14 benefits records, which are PL-2B, and look
15 for the pay period for pay week starting
16 April 8, '02, and I find that, or at least it
17 appears to me that that is a pay period
18 ending April 14th, '02, I find that you get
19 credited for 29 hours at Madison Square
20 Garden, and I find on this shop steward
21 report, the only shop steward report that has
22 your name on it in the period I've said, the
23 29 hours.
24 So, my question to you is: Why
25 are you only on this shop steward report in
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2 those years, why is this the only shop
3 steward report you're on?
4 A I don't know. I'm not the shop
5 steward. I don't know.
6 Q Well, when you shape, do you
7 shape only on the weekends?
8 A In the evenings, or whatever.
9 Q Is there a shop steward who is
10 responsible for recording your hours?
11 A Yes. I show my card, and that's
12 it.
13 Q Why are you not on the shop
14 steward reports?
15 A I don't know.
16 Q Why would you be on only this
17 shop steward report in 2002 and 2003?
18 A I don't know.
19 Q Have you looked at the benefits
20 record with respect to the Madison Square
21 Garden? Because you get reported hours there
22 routinely. Are those hours correct; are they
23 being correctly reported?
24 A Uh-huh. They probably are; yes,
25 they are. I get my benefits paid.
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2 Q Would it be fair for me to rely
3 on that if you are credited with hours at
4 Madison Square Garden, you are in fact
5 working at Madison Square Garden during this
6 time period?
7 A Yeah. I don't think they are
8 going to pay me if I'm not there.
9 Q That really is my question. That
10 for every hour's benefits, you have actually
11 worked at Madison Square Garden for that
12 period?
13 A Yes, I understand.
14 Q Is that correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Nobody is giving you credit for
17 benefits, hours not worked; is that true?
18 A No.
19 Q Is that true?
20 A That's true.
21 Q Would it be fair to state, then,
22 that the reason you're not on the shop
23 steward reports, at least in 2002 and
24 approximately half of 2003, is a question I
25 have to ask the shop steward or the people or
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2 the foreman at Madison Square Garden?
3 A Ask them.
4 Q Have you ever asked them to keep
5 you off the report?
6 A No, I never asked them nothing,
7 no.
8 Q Basically, if I understand your
9 testimony, you show up and shape up when you
10 believe there's an occasion that you are
11 likely to get work; is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And that there is no one
14 carpenter who works -- there's no business
15 agent or other carpenter who tells you when
16 to shape, when there's going to be work or
17 not?
18 MR. ISAACS: Excuse us for one
19 second.
20 MR. MACK: You want a break?
21 MR. ISAACS: No.
22 (Pause.)
23 (Witness confers with counsel.)
24 MR. ISAACS: I think my client
25 wants to rephrased his answer as to who
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2 gave him information.
3 MR. MACK: Okay.
4 A I'm not going to say that the
5 carpenters never give me information. I get
6 information from carpenters, electricians,
7 plumbers, painters, whoever is working there,
8 that's how I get it. On the possibility that
9 someone -- maybe a carpenter did or maybe he
10 didn't, the same as an electrician; maybe he
11 did, I don't remember.
12 Q Is there any particular carpenter
13 or --
14 A No. There's no specific guy, you
15 know.
16 Q When do you determine when you're
17 going to shape up for Madison Square Garden
18 work?
19 A There's a think called the
20 Melrose Games. I know when they start.
21 Q The Melrose Games?
22 A I know when they come out, things
23 like that. So I --
24 Q Does any business agent or
25 person, union official, assist you or provide
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2 data that allows you or encourages you to
3 shape on a particular day?
4 A No.
5 Q I still don't know, it is just my
6 ignorance, why is it you don't show up on the
7 shop steward report? Why isn't that true?
8 What happened?
9 A I don't know. I don't know.
10 That, I don't know.
11 Q Can you explain that for any
12 reason?
13 A I can't explain it. You got it.
14 I don't know.
15 Q Do you ever ask anyone -- is this
16 the first time since, I guess, the last time
17 we met, that you learned that you're only on
18 one shop steward report for about 18 months?
19 A I didn't ask anybody; because I
20 don't do the shop steward report. I show my
21 card, and that's it.
22 Q Who do you show your card to?
23 A To the foreman or the shop
24 steward.
25 Q When do you show your card? When
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2 you first arrive, or when?
3 A Before you're hired.
4 Q Is there, like, a shape-up where
5 people line up at Madison Square Garden?
6 A Not necessarily, no.
7 Q Where do you actually shape?
8 Where do you go when you shape Madison Square
9 Garden?
10 A Where the workers go in off Eight
11 Avenue.
12 Q Who do you see?
13 A I see if the foreman is
14 available, whoever.
15 Q Who is the foreman?
16 A What's his name? Malcolm
17 something.
18 Q His name might be Shore; right?
19 Do you know Malcolm Shore?
20 A Just to work with.
21 Q Is he a person that you socialize
22 with?
23 A No. He is a carpenter, that's
24 it. Like the rest of us.
25 Q Do you go to the foreman rather
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2 than the shop steward when you want to shape,
3 or not?
4 A It all depends.
5 Q You go to both?
6 A Yeah.
7 Q Who is the shop steward?
8 A Anthony Forde.
9 Q After -- have you worked at
10 Madison Square Garden since the last time you
11 were here?
12 A No.
13 Q Have you ever asked Anthony Forde
14 why you're not on the shop steward reports?
15 A No.
16 Q Anthony Forde, does he work on
17 the weekend?
18 A When?
19 Q When you're working at Madison
20 Square Garden is Anthony Forde generally on
21 the job?
22 A Yes, he is there.
23 Q How about the foreman, Mr. Shore?
24 A I guess so, he's there.
25 Q When you're working, you know,
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2 when you're benefits history --
3 A Yeah.
4 Q Let me finish the question. When
5 you're working, and we have records, you
6 know, of your benefits history, when you're
7 working there, are you generally working at
8 nights and weekends?
9 A Yes.
10 Q When you are working nights and
11 weekends, is there a shop steward present?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What about a foreman?
14 A They are also.
15 Q Both the foreman and shop steward
16 are present when you're working?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Is that true?
19 A It's true.
20 Q What you're encouraging me to do
21 in terms of trying to find out why you're not
22 on the shop steward report, is to talk to the
23 foreman and the shop steward; is that
24 correct?
25 A Yes.
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2 Q I would like to skip ahead, still
3 staying on PL-3, I would like you to go to
4 that area where the entries are November 13,
5 2000. I want to ask you some specific
6 questions here about what happened on that
7 day. On November 13 of 2000 -- and I'm
8 looking at PL-3, maybe you can read along
9 with me here -- and remember that there's a
10 three-hour difference -- so I see you
11 deleting the skill of framing at
12 approximately 12:01 p.m. and also deleting
13 drywall, and also deleting finished woodwork.
14 Can you tell me why you did that
15 on that day; what was happening there? Take
16 your time, because, obviously, I'm going to
17 be asking you about what else happened in
18 that time period, so just take a look at the
19 whole picture; you may have done this or may
20 not have done this, but obviously, I want you
21 to focus on those days, November 13 and
22 November 14, going right through November 15.
23 A I don't remember any of that
24 stuff.
25 Q I also see you, you know, you
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2 deleted -- the records speak for themselves,
3 so I can interpret, you know, the records,
4 but what's important to me, given this
5 sequence here on November 13, November 14 and
6 November 15, is why you deleted, why you
7 added, and what you know about the dispatch,
8 because you were dispatched, as you know, to
9 Century Maxim on the 15th.
10 I don't know whether you've gone
11 over them with counsel, about the sequence
12 here, how it happened or why it happened. If
13 you want --
14 A I don't remember.
15 Q Let's just go through it. Maybe
16 by going through it in some detail, it will
17 help you remember.
18 Can you give me a reason why you
19 would have deleted those skills?
20 A I don't remember deleting them;
21 that's it.
22 Q Have you ever received advice
23 from a fellow carpenter about what skills to
24 add or delete, at any particular time?
25 A No.
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2 Q So why would you, a person who
3 has all these skills, why would you delete
4 skills on November 13? Why would you, given
5 your expertise and your experience as a
6 carpenter, why would you have any interest in
7 deleting skills?
8 A I don't remember deleting any of
9 them. I don't remember doing it.
10 Q You don't remember doing it. Do
11 you think that you didn't do it, and somebody
12 else did it?
13 A I don't know.
14 Q Now, let's go to the -- you added
15 yourself to the list on November 13, 2000, at
16 exactly the same or just about at the same
17 time as you deleted those three skills.
18 Take a look at this and take a
19 look at your benefits record, you'll see why
20 I'm asking the next question. Do you see why
21 I'm asking the question? I have you working
22 for Century Maxim right through this time
23 period. I also have you working for Madison
24 Square Garden. So I don't understand, again,
25 why you would add yourself to the out-of-work
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2 list on November 13th. So maybe you can
3 explain it to me.
4 MR. ISAACS: Can we take a break?
5 MR. MACK: Why don't we take a
6 five-minute break.
7 (Short recess taken.)
8 MR. MACK: On the record.
9 I remind you, you are still under
10 oath.
11 Q We are working on these three
12 days in November 2000. I'm trying to
13 understand why the events unfolded as they
14 did. So if you can -- the first question, at
15 least it appears from the records I have,
16 that you were actually working when you added
17 yourself to the out-of-work list at 12:01
18 p.m. on November 13, 2000. Am I correct or
19 incorrect?
20 A You're probably correct. Okay.
21 Q I don't want to cut you off. You
22 tell me whatever you want to say. What am I
23 missing, what do you have in mind when adding
24 yourself to the out-of-work list when you're
25 working, what is the basis for that?
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2 A Well, I don't even remember
3 adding this or deleting it. It's because --
4 if I add on wherever I add on, it is because
5 I can do it.
6 Q What does that mean?
7 A I can do the work. What did you
8 ask me I added on?
9 Q Let's me be precise. This is an
10 interesting period for me in trying to
11 understand what happened here. As we've just
12 said, on November 13, I see you deleting
13 certain skills; and at the same time you're
14 deleting those skills, you add yourself to
15 the out-of-work list. And the time is
16 precisely 12:01 p.m., November 13, 2000. Add
17 yourself to the list and your benefits
18 reflect, at least in my opinion, that you are
19 working a full week at Century Maxim -
20 Madison Square Garden.
21 So my question is, why did you
22 add yourself to the out-of-work list when you
23 were working?
24 A That's a long time ago. I don't
25 remember doing this, but if I did do it, I
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2 don't remember adding myself onto the list.
3 Q The records show you did add; and
4 the reason you did, I see two days later you
5 go out on a job as Century Maxim shop
6 steward. So I know you had to be on the list
7 or you wouldn't have been sent out as a shop
8 steward.
9 A So I was on the list.
10 Q My question is: What is
11 happening, how do you explain that to me,
12 what are you doing there?
13 A I never took my name off it.
14 Q Take your time. Again, this is
15 an explanation, this is not an accusation,
16 this is explanation time. I'm trying to
17 understand what is happening there.
18 A Because I know that Century Maxim
19 has the jobs, friends tell me, or whatever.
20 Q Right.
21 A So --
22 Q But you're already working at
23 Century Maxim in November 2000. Where are
24 you working, start this way, what site are
25 you working, what jobsite?
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2 A I don't even know. I don't even
3 know. This is 2004. I don't remember, you
4 know.
5 Q So you wouldn't contest the fact
6 that you were working on November 13?
7 A Probably not. No. I was
8 working, yes.
9 Q Let's go to November 14, 2000.
10 Follow right along with me here, because
11 that's what I have available to me.
12 I see you do the following
13 things: I see you add sexual harassment as a
14 skill. And you do that at 9:03 a.m. Was
15 there any particular reason why you added
16 that skill on that day?
17 A I took the course.
18 Q Had you just completed the course
19 in November?
20 A Probably; whenever.
21 Q It may be more important to me,
22 at least later that morning, 11:54 a.m.,
23 because I have to add the three hours because
24 of the three-hour difference, I see you add
25 wood framing and protection. You see where
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2 I'm looking?
3 A I added?
4 Q You add it to your skills?
5 A Yes. Yeah.
6 Q Was there any particular reason
7 why you added those skills on that day?
8 A Probably no particular reason.
9 Q Let me tell you why I'm asking
10 the question, and you should think about it.
11 All right, this is the essence of my
12 question: On November 15, 2000, at 3:49
13 p.m., you were referred out as a shop steward
14 to a Century Maxim job.
15 Take a look at the referral and
16 you'll see why I'm asking you the question.
17 The way you look at the referral is, you go
18 to PL-6 and you turn to Pages 4 and 5, and
19 you'll see why I'm asking these questions;
20 because I see on Page 5, go over this with
21 me, I see a shop steward dispatch request by
22 John Greaney in which the skills that are
23 asked for, in addition to concrete and shop
24 steward or UBC steward, are the very skills
25 you list before, wood framing and protection.
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2 If you hadn't added those skills, you would
3 not have been requested or have been the
4 person dispatched as a result of this
5 request. So you can understand why I'm
6 asking you why it was that you added those
7 two skills the day before, of wood framing
8 and protection, if you remember.
9 A Well, I added that because -- if
10 I'm doing concrete, whatever, they need it.
11 Q I didn't get the answer?
12 A If I added those skills?
13 Q Which you did, the day before at
14 11:45 a.m.?
15 A So I probably did, yes.
16 Q I'm asking you why was it that
17 you added those particular skills, which the
18 very next day were part of your dispatch as a
19 Century Maxim shop steward.
20 A I don't remember. I don't know,
21 because -- I add them, delete them or
22 whatever, because if the company needs a guy,
23 whatever it is, protection, framing or
24 whatever.
25 Q Did somebody encourage you before
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2 this request and say to you, it would be a
3 good idea for you to add protection and wood
4 framing?
5 A Well, if someone did, if they
6 did, I wouldn't -- I'm in the business a good
7 while. And I might be talking to somebody
8 and they said do this, do that, I probably
9 did.
10 Q What I'm asking you is to think
11 hard about this, because the documents at
12 least raise a question in my mind why it all
13 happened in these three days in November.
14 I'm asking, do you remember getting
15 information from any carpenter about adding
16 skills, deleting skills?
17 A I get information from all the
18 carpenters, you know.
19 Q Did you --
20 A Carpenters are working with
21 Century Maxim.
22 Q I can come up with lots of
23 possibilities. What I'm asking you,
24 Mr. Lynch, is, what is your recollection of
25 why you did these -- took these steps on this
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2 particular job?
3 A Because I probably -- I was
4 listening to some of the carpenters with
5 Century Maxim or whatever, you know.
6 Q Do you remember any of the
7 carpenters at Century Maxim who told you
8 about this job which was at LaGuardia Place,
9 West 3rd and LaGuardia?
10 A Do I remember any carpenters?
11 Probably, yeah.
12 Q Who, and what did they say?
13 A Whoever works with them.
14 Q I'm asking you for a particular
15 name of any person --
16 A Not really. Where I get the
17 information, you know, it wouldn't be
18 particular. I could hear it from an
19 electrician, or whatever.
20 Q Anything is possible. I'm
21 asking, do you remember where you got the
22 information about this job at West 3rd and
23 LaGuardia?
24 A Where exactly I got it, I do not
25 remember.
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2 Q Or from whom?
3 A Or from whom, because --
4 Q Finish the answer.
5 A -- because I knew the job was
6 going to be there, or whatever.
7 Q Tell me what you knew before you
8 got the job.
9 A There was a hole in the ground
10 then.
11 Q How did you know that there was a
12 hole in the ground at West 3rd?
13 A I'm a carpenter.
14 Q I understand. Did you have a
15 discussion with John Greaney about this job?
16 A No way. No. I know where those
17 holes in the ground are, all over the place.
18 Q I understand. I don't know
19 whether you do or don't.
20 A I know that.
21 Q With respect to this particular
22 job, how did you know there was a hole in the
23 ground that needed protection and wood
24 framing?
25 A Because it is a concrete job. If
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2 you're doing concrete, that's what they need,
3 protection, wood framing.
4 Q You didn't have those skills
5 until November 14 listed, 2000, until you
6 added them to your skills on the day before.
7 I'm trying to find out why.
8 A Because I probably knew that job
9 was there and they need those skills.
10 Q I'm asking, do you remember how
11 you knew that?
12 A Because I know what a concrete
13 job needs. All concrete jobs, they need the
14 protection, wood framing; and that's
15 concrete.
16 Q I understand that. You did not
17 have those skills on November 13?
18 A No.
19 Q Why did you decide on November
20 14, if you remember, to add those particular
21 skills?
22 A I add them and delete them, I
23 don't remember. I add skills and delete
24 them, whatever I think.
25 Q I'm asking if you remember, what
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2 do you think, to cause you to delete certain
3 skills and add certain skills in that time
4 period, November 13, November 14, November
5 15, 2000?
6 A I don't remember. All I know is,
7 I delete -- if you put on too many skills,
8 the company might not hire you because you
9 would be too good for them. All I know,
10 concrete jobs, that what's they need, those
11 skills; and I have those skills. I might not
12 be certified, but that's all I know.
13 Q You're telling me that basically
14 on November 14, when you added the skills,
15 not only sexual harassment, but wood framing
16 and protection, it was just because you
17 decided to do so for no particular reason?
18 MR. ISAACS: Let me talk to you
19 outside for a second.
20 MR. MACK: Take your time.
21 Before you leave, Steve, I want to make
22 sure it is this entire sequence we are
23 asking about, November 13, 14 and 15.
24 MR. ISAACS: Right.
25 (Witness confers with counsel.)
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2 MR. MACK: On the record.
3 Q Why don't you complete your
4 answer or explanation.
5 A That job on West 4th Street, I
6 put down the skills because I knew it was
7 going to be a big job, you know, and I got
8 the information probably from someone with
9 Century Maxim, and that's why I done it. And
10 my name was probably still on the list
11 anyway, so -- my name was probably still on
12 the list, too, but --
13 Q Well, when you say it was still
14 on the list, but basically, you were working
15 for Century Maxim --
16 A I knew it was a long job. The
17 job with Century Maxim was probably finishing
18 up.
19 Q What job were you on with Century
20 Maxim that was finishing up and you needed
21 another job with Century Maxim?
22 A I don't remember what job it was.
23 Q Would it be -- I want to make
24 sure I understand. Would it be fair to state
25 that the job you were working on for Century
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2 Maxim was close to ending, and you wanted
3 another job at the next Century Maxim job?
4 Would that be fair?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Even though you were working for
7 Century Maxim, you put yourself on the list
8 so you would be eligible for the next Century
9 Maxim shop steward job; would that be fair?
10 A Well, yes, whether it was shop
11 steward or not, it didn't matter.
12 Q Well, let me ask you this: Did
13 you want -- would you have wanted to become
14 shop steward at this Century Maxim job at
15 LaGuardia Place, West 3rd and LaGuardia
16 Place, wasn't that something worth having?
17 A Of course, it's worth having,
18 yes.
19 Q Assistant U.S Attorney Zornberg,
20 who is going to leave us shortly, wanted to
21 ask some questions before she left. I'll
22 give you that opportunity.
23 EXAMINATION BY
24 MS. ZORNBERG:
25 Q Mr. Lynch, how long have you been
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2 a carpenter?
3 A In this country?
4 Q Yes.
5 A I'm a member of 608 for fifteen
6 years.
7 Q Have you been doing framing
8 throughout those fifteen years?
9 A I have been doing all types of
10 carpentry.
11 Q That includes framing?
12 A That includes framing.
13 Q You've had drywall skills for
14 fifteen years?
15 A Whatever the District Council
16 sent me out to do, I can do it.
17 Q Including drywall skills?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Have you had wood framing skills
20 for fifteen years?
21 A Uh-huh.
22 Q Yes?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Have you had protection skills
25 for fifteen years?
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2 A Yes.
3 Q Why would you ever want to delete
4 the skill of framing from your job referral
5 profile?
6 A Some companies, if you have too
7 much on the list, they think you're a
8 jack-of-all-trades, and they don't need you.
9 Q What company?
10 A Some companies.
11 Q You've been in the trade for a
12 long time. So what companies are you aware
13 of that would pass you over because you had
14 too many carpentry skills listed in your
15 profile?
16 A In the finished woodworking
17 business, if you put concrete into that, they
18 wouldn't want to hire you.
19 Q Which companies?
20 A Any finished woodworking company.
21 If you put finished woodwork, if you put
22 concrete on your resume with finished
23 woodwork, that's it, that would hinder you.
24 So what you do is, you take it off and you
25 wouldn't put it on.
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2 If you put finished woodwork on
3 concrete, they don't want you, either,
4 because finished woodwork, it is not finished
5 woodwork. They want a concrete man, that's
6 it.
7 Q Do you have any knowledge of
8 specific companies passing over referrals
9 through the job referral system, because
10 someone's profile had too many skills listed?
11 A Repeat that.
12 Q I'm looking for names of specific
13 companies or specific instances that happened
14 to you or someone you know, that a carpenter
15 was rejected because their referral profile
16 had too many skills.
17 A No; because the carpenter already
18 knows, he takes it off. If I went to a
19 finished woodworking company and if I was --
20 if I had concrete on my resume, they would
21 send me home; I know that.
22 Q On your resume?
23 A Or wherever. Or vice versa. The
24 concrete companies, if you were a finished
25 carpenter, they would send you home. That's
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2 it.
3 Q My understanding of the job
4 referral system is, that if Century Maxim or
5 another company calls in for a referral, that
6 company isn't looking at the job profile of
7 every carpenter, it is just in the job
8 referral office in the a computer system that
9 they were doing a match within the District
10 Council. So that only the District Council
11 sees all the skills listed in the computer
12 system; is that right?
13 A I guess so, yes.
14 Q Why would you ever need to delete
15 a skill from your computer database listing
16 in the computer at the District Council?
17 A I just answered that, that's why.
18 If you have too many, they think you are not
19 that professional, or whatever. That's why.
20 That's my opinion. I don't know the
21 information that the District Council and
22 companies share.
23 Q Who at Century Maxim told you to
24 add protection and wood framing in order to
25 get the shop steward position in November
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2 2000?
3 A Probably a foreman, or somebody
4 like that.
5 Q The foreman listed in the job
6 referral for the LaGuardia Place job, is Bob
7 Kennedy. Did he?
8 A He was the super. He wasn't a
9 carpenter foreman. Probably a carpenter
10 foreman told me. Kennedy was the super.
11 Q Sitting here today, do you
12 remember who it was, by name?
13 A No, I don't, not by name. I work
14 with everybody. I can't --
15 MS. ZORNBERG: Okay.
16 EXAMINATION (Continuing)
17 BY MR. MACK:
18 Q Now, did you know, Mr. Lynch, if
19 you can remember, that in fact there was
20 going to be a dispatch for a shop steward for
21 this West 3rd and LaGuardia Place jobsite in
22 this particular period, did you know that
23 they were going to ask for a shop steward?
24 A I probably did.
25 Q And would it be fair to say that
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2 you would know or did know that the shop
3 steward's skills that they would request
4 would include protection and wood framing?
5 A Yeah.
6 Q Did you have any conversations
7 with John Greaney concerning this jobsite?
8 A No. I don't know. I had no
9 conversation with John Greaney.
10 Q You can tell from the document,
11 it was John Greaney who called in the job.
12 A There's plenty of BA's there. I
13 don't know who called it.
14 Q Did you know that some BA was
15 going to call in the request for a shop
16 steward in the middle of November 2000?
17 A I knew it was coming, yeah.
18 Q Did you have any conversations
19 with any business agent, other than John
20 Greaney?
21 A I had no conversation with no BA,
22 you know, about it.
23 Q So let me make sure I have the
24 answer. You had no conversation with any
25 business agent of 608 concerning this Century
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2 Maxim job at West 3rd and LaGuardia Place
3 before you got dispatched; is that correct?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q How long were you the shop
6 steward at this job?
7 A At LaGuardia?
8 Q Yes.
9 A Eight, nine months?
10 Q Take a look. It is hard for me
11 to tell.
12 A Hard for me to tell, too.
13 Q Take your time; take a look at
14 it.
15 A Where are you now?
16 Q We are moving along. Basically,
17 the job, this particular job you were
18 dispatched to as a shop steward, the job
19 starts November 16, 2000, at 7:00 in the
20 morning?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And you went and you were the
23 shop steward there; correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q How long were you acting as the
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2 shop steward?
3 MR. ISAACS: The best you
4 remember.
5 A As best I remember, 2000, we were
6 there for -- we were there for
7 September 11th, anyway.
8 Q So it was a good job, a long job
9 to have as the shop steward?
10 A Yes. I was there after
11 September 11th, I know that. Plus it came in
12 two phases. It was a couple of months and
13 then we caught up and we stopped. I was
14 there for --
15 Q Give the best estimate you can.
16 What would be your best estimate how long you
17 were there?
18 A Nine months, ten months.
19 Q I see you go on the out-of-work
20 list on February 1st, 2002.
21 A Uh-huh.
22 Q Now, it seems to me that --
23 A Okay.
24 Q So my question, as you know, you
25 can predict my questions now, were you
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2 working when you went on the out-of-work list
3 in February 1st, 2002?
4 A Yeah.
5 Q If you could, explain to me
6 what's happening there. First question is,
7 you're working. Why do you go on the
8 out-of-work list? What's going on there?
9 A Probably the job was coming to an
10 end, and I put my name on the out-of-work
11 list. It was coming to an end.
12 Q It was coming to an end. You
13 were still working, though; right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q You tell me. You were working?
16 A Yes.
17 Q The job, this job at LaGuardia
18 Place, in which you had been shop steward for
19 all that time, was coming to an end. Is that
20 a fair statement? Say yes or no.
21 A Yes. I'm sorry.
22 Q You're doing fine. Did you have
23 in mind some other job that you would be
24 interested in working at?
25 A I had in mind, yeah, getting
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2 other work.
3 Q Did there come a time after --
4 and I have you on the out-of-work list, I
5 have, you know, records of their trying to
6 call you, unable to reach you in March of
7 2002, you're still on the out-of-work list,
8 and, of course, your benefits are still --
9 you're still being paid by Century Maxim
10 during that time period, as I read your
11 benefits history. But if I'm wrong, you tell
12 me I'm wrong.
13 A Yeah.
14 Q You're working, right?
15 A Okay.
16 Q You tell me if I'm wrong. I want
17 to understand this. I see you working right
18 through February 2002 and I see you working
19 in March.
20 A Yeah.
21 Q And you're on the out-of-work
22 list starting in February. So I see an
23 approximately six-week period that you're on
24 the list and you're working. Wouldn't that
25 be fair?
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2 A Okay, that's fair, right.
3 Q Did there come a time when you
4 learned about or thought about another job
5 that you would like to be able to obtain?
6 A Well, there's no job I ever would
7 like to obtain. I was on the out-of-work
8 list, so my number can come down; that was
9 it.
10 Q We can see, we have to take a
11 look at it. But you're working during this
12 time period.
13 (Witness confers with counsel.)
14 Q So did there come a time when you
15 became aware of another job that you would
16 like to be considered for or appointed to as
17 shop steward?
18 A No.
19 Q Now, as I read the job referral,
20 excuse me, your listings on the out-of-work
21 list, they were unable to -- the phone was
22 busy on March 8th, on March 19th, they
23 weren't able to reach you, on March 20, you
24 added 608; you were still on the out-of-work
25 list. And then on March 22, you're referred.
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2 Do you know what job that was?
3 A DiFama Concrete.
4 Q Were you aware of that job before
5 you were dispatched to it?
6 A Not really aware of it. I knew
7 they were doing construction over on
8 Roosevelt Island.
9 Q Was that a job, I mean, you're on
10 the out-of-work list for this time period,
11 and if you look at -- you'll see what I have
12 in front of me, you'll see that a lot of
13 skills were added, you know, during the time
14 period, but this is a job that has lots of
15 skills for a concrete job. This was just a
16 concrete job, wasn't it, this Roosevelt
17 Island job?
18 A Yeah.
19 Q Why are all these skills listed
20 here, 10-hour OSHA and CPR-certified?
21 A I have those.
22 Q I know you have those. Why are
23 those skills the skills being requested for
24 this job?
25 A I don't know. But when you do
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2 the course, that's put on.
3 Q I understand that. Did you have
4 any conversations with any carpenter before
5 you were dispatched to this job, about what
6 would be the skills that would be sought,
7 would be asked for by DiFama?
8 A No.
9 Q Did you have any idea, or
10 anything in mind, that there would in fact be
11 a need for a shop steward in March of 2002
12 for this Roosevelt Island job?
13 A No.
14 Q Are you telling me that when you
15 were dispatched to this job, it was a
16 complete surprise, you had no idea this was a
17 job that you wanted?
18 A That's right.
19 Q So this was a complete surprise
20 to you; is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You didn't have any conversation
23 with any carpenters or other people about
24 this Roosevelt Island job before you got the
25 job?
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2 MR. ISAACS: May I talk to
3 Mr. Lynch for a second?
4 MR. MACK: Go talk to your
5 lawyer.
6 (Pause.)
7 (Witness confers with counsel.)
8 MR. MACK: Back on the record.
9 Q We are on the record. You're
10 still under oath. Having had the benefit of
11 chatting with your counsel, is there
12 something you want to add or subtract from
13 what you've told me on this job here.
14 A DiFama?
15 Q Right.
16 A That's in the 157 area; that's
17 why I didn't know too much about it.
18 Q Did you know anything about it
19 before you were dispatched?
20 A I didn't know anything about it.
21 Q Did you know that the job was
22 going to be needing a shop steward --
23 A No.
24 Q -- before you actually were
25 assigned as the shop steward?
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2 A No, I did not know that, no.
3 Q Did you have any discussions with
4 any carpenter before you actually got to the
5 jobsite on Roosevelt Island, about what were
6 the skills that were going to be asked for,
7 for the shop steward?
8 A No.
9 Q Did anyone talk to you before you
10 actually went to the jobsite, about the
11 opportunity to become shop steward there?
12 A No.
13 Q So how long did that Roosevelt
14 Island job last, as far as you can remember?
15 A Three months or so.
16 Q You try to go by memory, because
17 you know I'm going to ask you the next
18 question about going back on the out-of-work
19 list on June 18, 2002. If you check your
20 benefit history, at least to my unpracticed
21 eye, you were still working for DiFama at the
22 time you go back on the out-of-work list.
23 A Probably it was coming to an end.
24 Q I'm asking you. I want you to
25 tell me why you're going back on the
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2 out-of-work list when the DiFama job is still
3 going on, at least based upon these benefit
4 records. What's happening here?
5 A It was probably coming to an end,
6 so I put my name back on the out-of-work
7 list.
8 Q I mean, basically, am I incorrect
9 in understanding that you're not supposed to
10 be on the out-of-work list unless you're out
11 of work? Isn't that a fair reading of what
12 the out-of-work list is about?
13 A Probably.
14 Q Is anybody encouraging you or
15 telling you it's okay, even though the job is
16 still going on, you can get a head start by
17 putting your name out on the out-of-work
18 list?
19 A No.
20 Q Why are you doing that; just
21 being smart about getting the next job?
22 A Yeah.
23 Q Here's something I don't
24 understand, and take a look at your history
25 here, your work referral history. Also I
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2 think it requires you to look at your
3 dispatch packet, which is Exhibit PL-6. I
4 see right after the request by Lawrence --
5 when you see Lawrence at 157, you know who
6 Lawrence is?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Who is that?
9 A 157.
10 Q Do you know his last name?
11 A No.
12 Q Did you have any conversations
13 with Lawrence about the Roosevelt Island
14 DiFama job, before you went to the jobsite
15 for the first time?
16 A No.
17 Q Lawrence is a business agent at
18 157; isn't that right?
19 A That's right.
20 Q Turn to the next page in that
21 very same exhibit, PL-6.
22 MS. SOBOCIENSKI: You have it.
23 A Okay.
24 Q If you look, there are two pages
25 there, it is a fax dated July 11, 2002. Take
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2 a look at it. It is right after the request
3 for the shop steward position at the
4 Roosevelt island job for DiFama, the next two
5 pages.
6 A Uh-huh.
7 Q Take a look at those two pages:
8 Look at the second page. I'm assuming that
9 that's Mrs. Lynch there on the first page; is
10 that fair?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And then it looks like a
13 facsimile cover page sent to the District
14 Council at that fax number. You look at
15 that. Then there's an attachment which bears
16 the signature in the name of Patrick J.
17 Lynch. Is that you?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Is that your signature?
20 A Yes.
21 Q What is happening? I'm not
22 asking to probe into your family situation,
23 but I am asking, that appears to me to be a
24 hold or a freeze?
25 A Yeah, you freeze your number.
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2 Q Did you have a family issue that
3 you needed to be frozen, your place frozen on
4 the out-of-work list?
5 A I probably had, yes.
6 Q Let's not talk probably,
7 because --
8 A I guess so. 2002.
9 Q You think about it. Just don't
10 throw out probablies and guesses here. These
11 are important questions and answers.
12 A Yeah.
13 Q Take a look at your benefits
14 history. It appears, to my unpracticed eye,
15 that you're working in July 2002.
16 A Uh-huh.
17 Q I don't want to be accused of
18 trying to deceive you, because I want you to
19 look at those two pages; and then if you look
20 on your job referral history, you accept a
21 job on that very day. I just don't
22 understand what's happening here. You have
23 one which is holding calls from July 11,
24 2002, ending August 11, 2002, that's what it
25 says. But at the very same day, you're
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2 accepting a referral; and at the same time,
3 you're working during this period.
4 So I'm asking you to try to
5 explain those three matters to me. I don't
6 understand them. What's happening there?
7 A If I was working, I was working;
8 if my name was on the list, it was on the
9 list.
10 (Witness confer with counsel.)
11 Q I don't understand these three
12 variables.
13 MR. MACK: Steve, do you
14 understand the three questions I have?
15 MR. ISAACS: I do.
16 (Pause.)
17 MR. MACK: Back on the record.
18 A My best recollection of this is,
19 probably if the District Council called me to
20 dispatch me for the job, probably I took the
21 job, it wasn't an emergency. That's it.
22 Q Let me make sure I understand
23 what you just told me. You do remember
24 putting in a request to hold or to freeze
25 your position?
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2 A Hold the number, freeze the
3 number.
4 Q In other words, when you signed
5 this letter on July 11, and your wife faxed
6 it to the District Council, you were working
7 at the time, we know that; right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q But even though you were working,
10 you were requesting that your number be
11 frozen. And it doesn't say in the letter,
12 but I think you can freeze for thirty days;
13 isn't that right? What's your understanding,
14 for how long you could freeze yourself?
15 A Probably a month, thirty days.
16 Q And then what happened? After
17 you froze yourself, what happened?
18 A I got a call from the District
19 Council, and I probably -- it probably wasn't
20 an emergency, so I took the job wherever, and
21 I probably didn't unfreeze my number. I
22 didn't call it up again.
23 Q Do you remember what job it was
24 that you were called about?
25 A No. No. Not really.
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2 Q I guess my first -- take your
3 time. You have the documents. You have the
4 same documents I have. So you have the
5 benefit of being the person named in the
6 documents.
7 A What job was I sent to?
8 Q It says Murray Street, July 11,
9 2002. And actually, it is 253, that's what
10 the record says. I'm asking you to tell me
11 what happened. It says "member called, shape
12 on job." That's why I'm confused. You put
13 yourself -- listen to the question. You put
14 yourself on hold, or frozen, okay, and your
15 wife sends in your letter signed by you, and
16 then on that very day, at least if I see
17 these records here, you shape a Century Maxim
18 job. I'm asking you to explain that to me.
19 What happened?
20 A I don't know. They were supposed
21 to have called me and I shaped it, and they
22 called me and I froze my name. I don't know
23 what the hell --
24 Q Tell me, what's your best
25 explanation of what happened here on July 11,
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2 2002?
3 A All I know, you have it there
4 saying I was working with Century Maxim,
5 that's it.
6 Q Do you remember working for
7 Century Maxim at the Murray Street job? Did
8 you ever work there?
9 A I did, yeah. Murray Street?
10 Yeah, I was there. Century Maxim ain't
11 paying me if I wasn't there; I can guarantee
12 you that.
13 Q I'm confident of that, too.
14 A I was there.
15 Q How did you come to shape that
16 Murray Street job? Did somebody tell you
17 there's a Century Maxim job there? What's
18 your recollection of that?
19 A There's a possibility somebody
20 told me.
21 Q Anything is possible.
22 A Probably heard it. Somebody told
23 me they were looking for carpenters.
24 Q Do you remember who tod you that?
25 A Whoever was working with
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2 Century -- I don't remember names, or
3 whatever.
4 Q But there's no question, you went
5 and shaped and started work, or actually, you
6 know, shaped the job, the Century Maxim job
7 at Murray Street; correct?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q I'm trying to understand, and
10 maybe I won't be able to understand, was this
11 hold due to a family situation, what happened
12 in that family situation, or was that just --
13 A I don't know.
14 Q Was there a family situation or
15 not?
16 MR. ISAACS: Do you remember?
17 A I don't remember what it was
18 about. It's two years ago.
19 Q Do you understand why I'm asking
20 the question? You're telling the District
21 Council in one letter that you're unable to
22 start a job, and yet the very same day, you
23 shape a job.
24 A I don't understand that. I don't
25 know.
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2 Q You don't know. We'll move on.
3 I would like you to go next on
4 your job referral history to October 22,
5 2002. Of course, I'm asking you about adding
6 yourself to the list. Take your time. You
7 know what I'm doing here.
8 It appears to me that you're
9 still working for Century Maxim for that
10 entire time period. So, first of all, my
11 first question is: Why are you putting
12 yourself on the out-of-work list when you're
13 at work?
14 Take a look, go through your
15 records.
16 A That's no different than any
17 other time.
18 Q It is important -- I don't want
19 to pierce the communication between you and
20 Mr. Isaacs, but it is important for you to
21 think about, you know, my conclusion that you
22 put yourself on the out-of-work list whenever
23 you wanted to, whether you're working or not.
24 But I don't want you to simply concede that,
25 because that may have implications for you.
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2 I would like you to look at each
3 situation. I see you go on the list, go on
4 the list, actually, because of the different
5 Locals, on October 22, 2002, all about the
6 same time, about 12:32 p.m.
7 So my question is, you're working
8 for Century Maxim very solidly during that
9 period. Are you at Murray Street, is that
10 where you are during this time period, or are
11 you somewhere else?
12 A I don't really know.
13 Q This is not that long ago. This
14 is the end of 2002.
15 A Yeah.
16 Q Were you working at Murray
17 Street, or were you working at other Century
18 Maxim jobs in October 2002?
19 A Probably Murray Street.
20 Q What was the reason that you put
21 yourself on the list? Was the Murray Street
22 job --
23 A It was probably finishing up.
24 Q Try not to do "probably." Was
25 the Murray Street job closing up, and you
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2 wanted to be ready for another job? What was
3 happening here?
4 A As far as I know, it was closing
5 up.
6 Q You were the shop steward there.
7 No, you weren't, forgive me. Who was the
8 shop steward on the Murray Street job; do you
9 remember?
10 A I don't know, I don't remember.
11 Q Is it your recollection that the
12 Murray Street job was starting to end in or
13 around October of 2002, and that's why you
14 put yourself on the list?
15 A That's right.
16 Q Okay. I want you to tell me what
17 happened, what went on thereafter, okay.
18 What's going on. Go down our history there.
19 I don't have to ask the questions.
20 Basically, the history asks the questions
21 themselves.
22 I see you bypassed on November
23 19, I see you take yourself off the 926 and
24 45 on November 12. Why did you take yourself
25 off the 45 and 926 list?
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2 A That's Queens and Brooklyn.
3 Q You put yourself on there October
4 22?
5 A But I didn't want to work in
6 Brooklyn or Queens.
7 Q Was there anything particular
8 that went on in November that caused you, --
9 is there any particular reason, if you
10 remember, why you took yourself off 926 and
11 Local 45 in November?
12 A Not really. I just didn't want
13 them to call me.
14 Q Did you have any conversation
15 with anyone, the result of which was, you
16 took yourself off 45 and 926?
17 A No.
18 Q Is that something that came to
19 you on your own?
20 Let's go again, although I don't
21 have a document on this one, look at your
22 entry for November 22nd. Take your time.
23 Let me ask you the question and then you can
24 think about it.
25 You put yourself -- you're
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2 working at the time, so in my view, there's a
3 question why you should even be on the list
4 at all. That's for the District Council to
5 deal with. But on November 22, you put in --
6 or, it appears here you are holding calls
7 starting November 22, 2002, ending December
8 22, 2002. My question to you is: Why did
9 you do that?
10 A What do you mean, holding calls?
11 Q Meaning -- I don't know what it
12 means, because you're the one on the entry as
13 to who it is there. Take a look at those
14 entries there in that little series starting
15 November 22nd, right through December 20th.
16 Take that little segment there, take a look
17 at all of these.
18 Of course, you ought to know that
19 each one of these are supposed to reflect a
20 call that you made to the out-of-work list,
21 asking them to do something. The first thing
22 I see, on November 22 -- November 19, I've
23 asked you about, why did you remove yourself
24 from the Local 45 and 926, then I see you,
25 three days later, asking that calls be held,
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2 a freeze again.
3 A Uh-huh.
4 Q Although there's no paperwork, I
5 have no paperwork reflecting that freeze. So
6 my question is: What is happening there,
7 what happened there, why is that hold call
8 put there, if you remember?
9 A I don't remember_ That's the
10 only way you freeze, you send it in. I don't
11 remember. The only way you can freeze a
12 number is if you send in a full copy like
13 this.
14 Q Maybe it is possible that we
15 don't have it. I'm going to ask the Chief,
16 see if he can find it. It's not in the
17 exhibit.
18 The first question is, I don't
19 remember seeing it, but if it's there, I
20 mean, basically, do you remember, it is not
21 that long ago actually, it is about 14 or 15
22 months ago, we'll try to look to see if we
23 have a writing. While we are looking for it,
24 do you remember why your number was frozen at
25 the end of November for thirty days, do you
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2 remember?
3 A November of 2002?
4 Q Remember this, you're still
5 working. At least you're still receiving
6 benefits from Century Maxim for that entire
7 time period. Was Century Maxim giving you
8 benefits and you weren't working?
9 A No way.
10 Q That's the question, then.
11 You're working; first of all, why are you
12 requesting a hold, a freeze for this time
13 period? Do you have another job in mind