191
1
2 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
3
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
4
Plaintiff,
-against- 90 Civ 5722
6
DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY and
7 VICINITY OF THE UNITED BROTHERHOOD OF
CARPENTERS AND JOINERS OF AMERICA,
8 et al.,
9 Defendants.
10
11
12 CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF ANTHONY
13 ARGUELLES, the witness herein, taken by
14 Plaintiff, at the offices of Doar, Rieck & Mack,Esqs.,
15 Broadway, New York, New York, on
16 Friday, January 7, 2005, at 5:00 p.m., before
17 ROBERT BLOOM, a Shorthand Reporter and notary
18 public, within and for the State of New York.
19
20
21
TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
22 305 Madison Avenue 142 Willis Avenue
Suite 449 P.O. Box 347
23 New York,NY 10165 Mineola, NY 11501
24 (212) 349-9692 (516) 741-5235
25
192
1
2 APPEARANCE S:
3 DOAR, RIECK & MACK
217 Broadway - 7th floor
4 New York, New York 10007-2911
BY: WALTER MACK, ESQ.,
5 Independent Investigator
6
7 EDWARD SCARVALONE, ESQ.
Assistant United States Attorney
8 United States Department of Justice
86 Chambers Street
9 New York, New York 10007
10
11 O'DWYER & BERNSTEIN, ESQS.
Attorneys for District Council
12 52 Duane Street
New York, New York 10007
13 BY: GARY ROTHMAN, ESQ.
14
15 DINO J. LOMBARDI, ESQ.
Attorneys for Witness
16 52 Duane Street - 7th floor
New York, New York 10007
17
ALSO PRESENT:
18
DON SOBOCIENSKI, Investigator
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
193
1
2 INDEX
3 WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE
4 Anthony ArguellesMr. Mack 194,260, 289,
347,410, 422
5
6 Mr. Scarvalone 259, 417
Mr. Rothman 288, 346
7
8 Mr. Sobocienski 409
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
194
1
2 MR. MACK: Let's go on the record.
3 EXAMINATION BY
4 MR. MACK:
5 Q. Mr. Arguelles, let me apologize to you
6 for starting here somewhat late.
7 As I have mentioned to you, I just
8 received information about a dear friend's
9 illness, and that caused some of the delay.
10 I apologize for starting late on a
11 Friday afternoon, I will try to be as efficient
12 as I can be in our proceeding this evening.
13 I want to mention a couple of
14 additional things.
15 Obviously despite Mr. Lombardi's desire
16 for me to go through the entire warning system
17 again because he enjoys it so much, I am going
18 to presume that you recall the extensive time
19 period I spent when you were here on December
20 15th about what your rights are and what the
21 procedures are and how important it is to be
22 accurate and precise and truthful about the
23 subject matter, because it will save us
24 considerable time.
25 Unless there are some specific
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1 Arguelles
2 questions that you have some uncertainty with,
3 everything I said about your rights as a witness
4 and your ability to consult and take a break and
5 ask me to clarify matters and everything that I
6 said before is still obviously in effect.
7 This is simply a continuation of the
8 last proceeding. And I believe it was on
9 December 15th, in which you were here before,
10 and where we ended around 10 p.m. with your
11 request that you be given sometime to consult
12 with counsel on a subject which we will quickly
13 return to.
14 And notwithstanding some concern on
15 behalf of the attorneys that were present, that
16 request of yours was granted, and we are
17 continuing today pretty much where we left off
18 the last time.
19 Let me at least ask at this moment:
20 Are there any questions that you would like to
21 ask or your counsel would like to ask that are
22 unclear in your mind about your rights or what
23 this procedure is or who I am or what we're
24 doing?
25 A. No.
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1 Arguelles
2 Q. Let me add a couple of other subjects
3 which are at least in fairness I'm now making a
4 practice of disclosing when I'm questioning
5 people under oath, or questioning people, as
6 part of my function as the independent
7 investigator.
8 And that is that the District Council
9 has determined that they would like to end my
10 service at some time in the future. And the
11 reasons for that are theirs and that is
12 something I am not going to be directly involved
13 in.
14 But it is at least possible, maybe even
15 probable, that my term as independent
16 investigator will end in the very near future.
17 And that is something which I believe is subject
18 to the judge's determination, and probably will
19 result in a judge's resolution of that topic.
20 But it is at least possible maybe even
21 likely that my term and my authority will end in
22 the very near future.
23 And therefore you at least should be
24 advised and your counsel can consider it that
25 since that may be true, you may at least
1 Arguelles 197
2 consider the possibility of declining to
3 continue or I just can't anticipate how much
4 longer, and what reports I will be able to
5 write, and there is at least some uncertainty
6 there notwithstanding the fact that I will ask
7 Judge Haight for permission to conclude all of
8 the matters that I had begun.
9 I never predict what Judge Haight will
10 do.
11 In fairness to you and to your counsel,
12 I think I have to at least disclose to you that
13 my ability to continue in the role that I am
14 taking tonight is definitely open to question.
15 So if there is anything either of your
16 want to ask me about that, in fairness to you I
17 should tell that you so you can make whatever
18 decisions you may feel you wish to.
19 I would say the last time I disclosed
20 it, counsel proceeded. But I am not going to
21 anticipate anything. And I wouldn't presume by
22 any means that Judge Haight is going to say
23 well, it stopped and these investigations don't
24 continue, and because Anthony walked out on
25 January 7th, he is home free.
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2 I certainly wouldn't predict the judge
3 to say that. That is your call to make. I am
4 not going to encourage you to walk out, but that
5 is a decision I think I have the obligation to
6 disclose, the fact that my role as independent
7 investigator, its longevity is certainly a
8 matter in question at the moment.
9 MR. LOMBARDI: In response to that, we
10 did discuss this last time, and Mr. Arguelles
11 was present for at least part of that
12 discussion, and I think you and I talked about
13 it a little bit ourselves, Walter.
14 And I think it's fair to say that your
15 position would be if for some reason Mr.
16 Arguelles chose either himself or on the advice
17 of counsel to not continue the deposition, I
18 assume your position would be in that your
19 letter to him was issued in November 2004, and
20 that the initial stage of the deposition
21 commenced before such time as your tenure was
22 up, that you would take the position before the
23 court that any matters that were already part of
24 your jurisdiction, so to speak prior to your
25 term coming to an end, that you would be
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2 permitted, and the court would be well advised
3 to allow you to complete.
4 MR. MACK: You should have no doubt
5 about it.
6 You should also consider should you
7 walk out tonight the likelihood is that I would
8 be speaking to the judge on notice to you on
9 Monday morning asking that your client be
10 ordered to return and appear.
11 MR. LOMBARDI: So I wanted the record
12 to be clear. Because quite frankly what you
13 said before I began speaking almost seemed as if
14 Mr. Arguelles was being given the option to
15 discontinue or not.
16 If that was just your being very modest
17 and moderate in portraying the situation to him,
18 then that's great.
19 But as I have explained to my client,
20 we talked about last time, certainly you would
21 take the position that you are fully entitled to
22 continue with his deposition, and I, quite
23 frankly, have little or no doubt that Judge
24 Haight would concur with that viewpoint.
25 So here on the record in front of
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2 everybody, I don't think we -- if you want to
3 talk to me about this we can go off and talk for
4 a minute.
5 THE WITNESS: No, let's proceed.
6 MR. LOMBARDI: It's my belief that
7 Judge Haight would say that Mr. Mack is
8 empowered to continue and complete the
9 deposition,whatever the actuality of his tenure
10 is as investigator.
11 MR. MACK: I would hate for you to see
12 me in several months and say if you had told me
13 that we never would have proceeded on the night
14 of the 7th.
15 So I err on the side of disclosure and
16 I couldn't presume you were aware of my
17 termination.
18 MR. LOMBARDI: You have not been
19 terminated yet.
20 MR. MACK: I haven't. I know that
21 might change your opinion.
22 MR. ROTHMAN: Would you like me to?
23 MR. MACK: Absolutely not.
24 MR. ROTHMAN: That might change our
25 opinion.
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2 MR.MACK: Forgive our humor.
3 Q. Carpenters have their own humor and
4 lawyers do as well.
5 I want to cover a couple of other
6 areas.
7 One of which is, I know you brought me
8 records tonight. I have the benefit of reading
9 the transcript of your prior appearance, that is
10 an advantage that I have as an agent of the
11 court. I do not disclose transcripts until I am
12 prepared to write my final report on the topic
13 as a practice.
14 Although I do consider, from time to
15 time should there be an absolute need, or a need
16 expressed to me, I feel an obligation to at
17 least evaluate whether the transcript or
18 portions of it should be released prior to my
19 final report.
20 But having read the transcript, one of
21 the things that is clear is a number of your
22 answers to questions you answered that "I may be
23 able to answer this question better with my
24 records."
25 And that came up a couple of times, I
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2 know you brought records tonight. And I want
3 to make certain that if any of the answers or
4 topics that we covered before -- we were in the
5 period of around April, May and June of 2000.
6 In order to cut to the chase here, if
7 there were answers that you gave about the prior
8 jobs and questions I asked of you as to prior
9 jobs or where you were working or whether you
10 were working when you were on the license, I
11 would at least reiterate my request that should
12 your answer be different than it was the last
13 time because your recollection has been
14 refreshed by records that you have now reviewed
15 -- I don't believe you have because I don't
16 think you brought anything in that time period.
17 A. I don't do that.
18 Q. But I don't want to make the
19 presumption.
20 And if there were a change in the time
21 period that we have already spent some time
22 with, I am inviting that correction or
23 modification now to avoid forgetting about it
24 later in the day.
25 So I don't know what your answer to
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2 that question is.
3 Is any record you reviewed available to
4 you, recognizing that you have said a couple of
5 times that your records might assist you, have
6 those records in any way assisted you to
7 remember any of the jobs we talked about in the
8 period prior to April, May, June, 2000?
9 MR. LOMBARDI: Have you looked at the
10 records?
11 A. I haven't looked at anything previous
12 to where we left off.
13 Q. Do you have any records for the period
14 prior to April, May and June 2000 somewhere that
15 we didn't bring today or that could be available
16 to you?
17 A. Honestly, I really don't -- I was lucky
18 to even find the May, June and April ones. I
19 didn't think I had those.
20 Q. Here is where it is on the records
21 there, is where I would like to leave it today.
22 The answers that you gave me with
23 respect to the jobs up to April 2000 will stay
24 as recorded by the reporter.
25 And I will presume that no records
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2 exist that you are able to find prior to that,
3 let's say April 2000, unless should they exist,
4 then I would say that that obligation is of
5 yours and Mr. Lombardi's to produce those
6 records and change or alter or modify or add or
7 supplement your answer.
8 That burden will be upon you.
9 Otherwise, I will keep the record as it sits
10 today unless you want to come forward and say
11 I have other records, something else occurred to
12 me, I had some other way to refresh my
13 recollection.
14 MR. MACK: Is that fair?
15 MR. LOMBARDI: Yes.
16 MR. MACK: Now, let me just ask: Is
17 there anything else you would like to see?
18 MR. LOMBARDI: The exhibits last time,
19 Exhibit 1 obviously was the letter.
20 MR. MACK: Right.
21 MR. LOMBARDI: Exhibit 2 is the skill
22 history or work referral history which begins
23 with the list of skills.
24 MR. MACK: Are you asking me to
25 confirm this?
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2 MR. LOMBARDI: What I have, I'm
3 wondering why I have it, I have 1, 2 and 3, 3
4 being the benefits history.
5 And I have Exhibit 7 which are the
6 actual compilation of the manning requests and
7 dispatches.
8 What were Exhibits 4, 5 and 6?
9 MR. MACK: Those are exhibits that
10 exist in my brain at the moment.
11 MR. LOMBARDI: In your brain.
12 MR. MACK: But may not be used.
13 MR. LOMBARDI: And were not used the
14 last time.
15 MR. MACK: To my belief have not been
16 used so far.
17 MR. LOMBARDI: I want to make sure I
18 didn't somehow bring a partial file.
19 MR. MACK: No.
20 There are exhibits that exist somewhere
21 in this office that have those numbers, but they
22 are not part of this proceeding yet.
23 MR. LOMBARDI: I just want to make
24 sure I didn't bring an incomplete set.
25 MR. MACK: Should they become part you
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2 will have a copy, fair enough?
3 MR. LOMBARDI: Fair enough.
4 MR. MACK: Anything else?
5 MR. LOMBARDI: No.
6 MR. MACK: Mr. Rothman, anything you
7 would like to say or express before we resume
8 where we were? I know you did make a fairly
9 direct comment at the very end of our proceeding
10 last time, and I have that in mind, feel free,
11 of course to say anything you wish.
12 MR. ROTHMAN: The District Council
13 remains committed to the efficacy of the II's
14 investigations from now until whenever its term
15 may end.
16 MR. MACK: I appreciate that. The
17 fact that it may end tomorrow shouldn't bother
18 anyone.
19 That is a poor attempt at humor, I
20 don't mean to take likely your statement.
21 Anything else, Gary, you would like to
22 say?
23 MR. ROTHMAN: No.
24 MR. MACK: Mr. Scarvalone?
25 MR. SCARVALONE: I am Edward
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2 Scarvalone from the U.S. Attorney's Office.
3 Last time Lisa Zornberg was here, she couldn't
4 make it tonight, I am here in her place.
5 Q. The very same things I said about Ms.
6 Zornberg in terms of being my guest, and about
7 the government, is coming from the office, part
8 of the civil division, not a prosecutor, all of
9 those things are exactly the same, and Mr.
10 Scarvalone is just substituting for Ms. Zornberg
11 tonight because of her unavailability.
12 Let's proceed.
13 I think just out of an excess of
14 caution I will ask the reporter to swear you
15 again, less there be any concern.
16 Normally it's simply a continuation.
17 I would argue this is a continuation, but to
18 remove any, shall we say ambiguity on your part,
19 it's not because I don't except that you would
20 be absolutely truthful and accept my
21 representation, I would like to, in excess of
22 caution ask Mr. Bloom to swear the witness.
23 Whereupon,
24 ANTHONY ARGUELLES,
25 after having been previously sworn, was examined
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2 and testified further as follows
3 BY MR. MACK:
4 Q. Mr. Arguelles, when we last retired
5 prior to the holiday season, we seem to be
6 focused on a period in April, May and June of
7 2000, concerning benefits paid for you at L&D
8 Installers.
9 And the way the record sits at the
10 moment is that you described the job, I think
11 you describe it in the vicinity of Astor Place
12 or Astor Plaza.
13 A. Astor Place, down in that area. The
14 exact address I don't recall.
15 Q. Let me summarize here and also give you
16 some cautions so that we can pretty much pick up
17 where we were then.
18 What I was trying to ask you about was
19 where was the job, who was there, who was the
20 shop steward, was there job reported, to whom
21 was it reported, and that was sort of the
22 threshold of where we were.
23 At that time you were the beneficiary
24 of advice and discussion with your counsel which
25 is absolutely appropriate and exactly one of the
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2 reasons why he is here.
3 I don't mean to in any way indicate
4 there is anything wrong with that. That is why
5 Mr. Lombardi is here, you should feel entitled
6 to speak to him at any time tonight, of course,
7 in the same way.
8 One other thing that is very important
9 tonight is everybody involved, when we finally
10 adjourned, I think it was close to 10 o'clock
11 that Friday night, was that we wanted to make
12 sure that we understood the mechanism whereby
13 this topic was assessed by you subsequent to the
14 -- afterwards, during the holiday period, and to
15 make sure there was no effort by anyone, let me
16 put it that way, to influence your description
17 of the truth.
18 In other words, this is probably the
19 most important thing I say on any one of these
20 occasions, the standard here that is applied is
21 does the witness honor their oath. Are they
22 telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing
23 but the truth.
24 And what there is, obviously an ability
25 should there be something that arguably could
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2 incriminate you, personally, you have a Fifth
3 Amendment privilege, should you wish to exercise
4 it, I want to make sure you don't overlook that.
5 It is a serious invocation. I am not
6 going to go through all the warnings and
7 everything I told you about it. I wouldn't
8 encourage you to invoke it unless you have had a
9 significant discussion.
10 I don't see any reason why you would
11 even consider it, but it's not my consideration
12 that is important. I want to make sure you
13 recognize the importance of being as accurate
14 and precise as you can be.
15 I have that expectation of you, and
16 that you will do that.
17 One of the things I noticed in your
18 transcript was that at times I don't remember, I
19 don't recall, I have no knowledge.
20 I will tell you I am a veteran of a
21 number of perjury prosecutions in the criminal
22 courts where the jury convicted someone because
23 they did not believe the person didn't recall
24 when they said they didn't recall, because of
25 the nature of the situation.
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2 I'm sure Mr. Lombardi being the
3 experienced practitioner that he is would not in
4 anyway encourage you to fail to recall something
5 because when you recall any aspect of it,
6 recollection is a difficult thing, some people
7 recall everything, some people recall some
8 percentage, but the question calls for any
9 recollection.
10 So do not make the mistake of thinking
11 that a formulaic way or a means of avoiding an
12 unpleasant duty to tell the truth is to simply
13 say "I don't recall."
14 Because should a Grand Jury, petit jury
15 decide it is as simply a mechanism to avoid an
16 unpleasant duty there is risk there. I'm sure
17 Mr. Lombardi has discussed that with you and the
18 importance of honoring your oath.
19 Having said all of that, let's go back
20 to this L&D Installers job and I'll start over
21 again and ask you: Do you remember the
22 circumstances of your obtaining that work?
23 A. As far as -- explain.
24 Q. I'm starting right from the beginning.
25 I'm sort of building.
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2 I want to start with: We have here
3 all of these hours for L&D in the months of
4 April, May and June.
5 MR. LOMBARDI: Do you understand the
6 question?
7 Q. We have a lot of hours, we are way up
8 there, we are pretty close to 600 hours of work?
9 MR. LOMBARDI: How he came to actually
10 be on that job.
11 Q. How you came to that job, where is the
12 job, who is on the job, we are starting right on
13 that job?
14 MR. LOMBARDI: The first question of
15 those is: How did you come to be on the job.
16 Q. Where is the job, how did you get
17 there?
18 A. Exact location, I can't give you an
19 exact address, down near Astor near Broadway.
20 Q. What type of job was it?
21 A. It was a furniture job.
22 Q. What does that mean in this particular
23 case?
24 A. It's office partition furniture,
25 assembling.
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2 Q. Is it assembling only the furniture but
3 also the partition?
4 A. The partitions. When I say furniture,
5 that's basically the partitions.
6 Q. Now, how did you come to be on that
7 job?
8 A. I shaped the job.
9 How did you know to go to that location
10 in orders to shape it?
11 A. My business agent told me that there
12 was a lot of work in that building.
13 Q. When you say your business agent, who
14 are we talking about?
15 A. Billy Hanley.
16 Q. If you would, do you remember the
17 location or where Billy Hanley told you about
18 that job?
19 A. I think it was up the hall.
20 MR. LOMBARDI: Are you sure?
21 Q. Don't let Mr. Lombardi -- do the best
22 you can recalling.
23 If you say "I'm not sure," I will ask
24 you to identify what the places are.
25 He's absolutely correct in asking you
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2 to focus on precision and accuracy, I don't want
3 you to feel that have you to be a camera or tape
4 recorder in order to answer my question. Do
5 the best you can.
6 MR. LOMBARDI: Nor do I. And the
7 answer I think is responsive in that he said "I
8 think."
9 He was saying he's not sure. That is
10 a responsive answer.
11 Q. What is your recollection of where you
12 talked to Billy Hanley?
13 A. I think it was up the hall.
14 Q. When you say up the hall you are
15 talking about Local 157 union hall, correct?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Was there at any particular place
18 within the hall, was it at his desk, was it --
19 where? How do you recall this conversation?
20 A. I actually don't remember where it was
21 in the hall.
22 Q. Was anyone else present?
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. Do you have a recollection of the
25 conversation or the gist of it?
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2 A. I just remember that there was -- he
3 said there was a lot of work going on in the
4 building, these a few companies there, go see if
5 you can shape.
6 Q. And "the building" he's talking about a
7 specific address?
8 A. Right. But I don't remember the
9 address.
10 Q. I got it.
11 And did he mention the name of a
12 contractor, or did he just say there's work in
13 this building?
14 A. "There's work in the building."
15 Q. Did he give you any other information
16 that you can recall?
17 A. No. Not that I recall.
18 Q. Did he say anything about who to see or
19 how to go about getting work?
20 A. I don't recall.
21 Q. My question is: Was your presence in
22 the hall on that occasion as a result of your
23 quest for work, or is it just you happened to be
24 there and this conversation occurred?
25 A. It was my quest for work.
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2 At that time, you were out-of-work, is
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes, I was looking for work.
5 Q. So you went down to the hall and did
6 you speak to any other business agents before
7 there conversation with Bill Hanley?
8 A. Not that I can recall..
9 Q. And after the conversation, what did
10 you do, did you go down to the building that day
11 or some other time?
12 A. I don't remember, I don't remember.
13 Q. I'm a "who, what, when, where, how"
14 person, especially on this. I'm a detailed
15 person, all right.
16 I would like you to tell me in your own
17 words how it came to pass that you were put on
18 on the job? What did you do, what do you
19 remember doing, that's the best way to ask it?
20 MR. LOMBARDI: After that conversation
21 with Mr. Hanley.
22 Q. After that conversation with Bill
23 Hanley.
24 MR. LOMBARDI: To the best of your
25 recollection what happened after that.
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2 A. I went down to the job, and --
3 Q. When you say the job, you went down to
4 the building?
5 A. The building, yes.
6 Q. And then what?
7 A. There was a few companies there.
8 don't know if I tried to shape a specific
9 company. Then I seen L&D there.
10 Q. Do you remember, when you say L&D,
11 forgive me for asking, did you see an L&D truck,
12 an L&D person?
13 A. I seen a few guys, and they said L&D.
14 Q. Did you know any of the guys you saw?
15 A. I don't recall, no, I don't. I don't
16 recall. I don't remember how many guys were
17 actually there.
18 Q. You testified last time because I asked
19 you the question, out of fairness to you, I
20 asked you how many people were on the job. Of
21 course the question dealt with when you were
22 actually working there, you said 8 to 9.
23 I wonder has your recollection changed
24 at all.
25 MR. LOMBARDI: As to once he actually
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2 was on the job how many carpenters were there?
3 MR. MACK: Yes.
4 Q. How many people did you see the first
5 time you were there is the question I just
6 asked.
7 But I want to make certain, I want to
8 be fair, I'm going more slowly because I want to
9 make sure I understand what happened here.
10 I want you to know that you did back on
11 December 15th when I asked you how many people
12 were on the job you told me you thought it was 8
13 to 9.
14 MR. LOMBARDI: Carpenters?
15 Q. Carpenters?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. I don't know if that affects your
18 answer on the first day or not.
19 Were there only a couple every guys
20 there the first time?
21 MR. LOMBARDI: Carpenters.
22 Q. I'll be more precise, I appreciate Mr.
23 Lombardi making sure I'm precise.
24 MR. LOMBARDI: When he first went
25 there he's kind of appraising the situation.
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2 There were, I assume, other trades there.
3 THE WITNESS: It was busy, the whole
4 building, the job was busy.
5 Q. Was the whole building being done or
6 what is happening on this job site?
7 A. I don't think it was the whole
8 building. It was just a lot of floors. A lot
9 of floors.
10 Q. So you saw some L&D guys there, I don't
11 know if they're carpenters or not?
12 A. Carpenters.
13 Q. What happened next?
14 A. So I called the hall, Billy says all
15 right -- I spoke to the guy, he said he was
16 going to put me on.
17 I called Billy, he said all right, stay
18 on the job, keep an eye on the job.
19 Q. I'm trying to find out, did you ever
20 raise the question with Bill Hanley about
21 whether there is a steward on the job or whether
22 the job should be reported?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You have had your shop steward
25 training, and you recognize the obligation of a
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2 union member to see that all jobs are reported,
3 you and I agree on that, right?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. Did that topic ever come up in your
6 conversation with Mr. Hanley?
7 MR. LOMBARDI: You mean after he went
8 to the job and shaped it?
9 Q. After you know there is an L&D job, you
10 work almost 600 hours on the job, Bill Hanley
11 has had at least as you recall some role in your
12 finding the job.
13 You are a shop steward, serve as a shop
14 steward and I'm sure you're a good union man, I
15 don't mean that in other than the most positive
16 way?
17 My question is: At any time while you
18 were there, did the topic of the importance of
19 reporting the job ever become a topic every
20 conversation between you and Mr. Hanley?
21 MR. LOMBARDI: I object to the form.
22 If you understand the question you can
23 answer it.
24 Q. Do you understand the question?
25 A. I called him and I let him know that
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2 I'm on the job.
3 And I figure he was going to take it
4 from there.
5 Q. But you don't recall ever saying:
6 Bill, is this job on record, does the District
7 Council know about it? Anything like that?
8 MR. LOMBARDI: I object to the form.
9 You can answer, if you understand it.
10 Q. If you don't understand it I will
11 rephrase the question. I'm not trying to ask
12 tricky questions. I want to understand why
13 this job wasn't reported.
14 MR. LOMBARDI: Is that the question?
15 MR. MACK: No. I am giving the
16 topic.
17 If you want me to ask another question
18 -- my feeling is this here, if your client
19 doesn't understand the question, he can express
20 it.
21 If you want to give me a suggestion and
22 say that question is too complex -- the question
23 is a very simple question, I want to proceed
24 expeditiously tonight.
25 If I appear before a District Court
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2 judge I can ask questions that way. I am
3 trying to proceed so that your client
4 understands what I'm asking.
5 MR. LOMBARDI: Part of the last
6 question was that the job was not reported.
7 MR. MACK: I understand that.
8 I will proceed more slowly.
9 Q. Did you ever discuss with Bill Hanley
10 whether or not the job was reported or not?
11 A. No.
12 Q. I think you told me a few moments ago
13 that you assumed, since you talked to Bill
14 Hanley, that if there was a reporting obligation
15 he would be the one who perform it, is that what
16 you told me?
17 A. He's the business agent, right.
18 Q. As far as you know, was there a shop
19 steward on this job?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How do you know that?
22 A. Because there wasn't. I mean no one
23 carded me. I took over as the shop steward.
24 Q. Did you prepare any shop stewards
25 reports?
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2 A. I might have filled out one sheet to
3 make sure everybody had their cards and
4 everything. But I don't remember continuously
5 filling out sheets. Because I wasn't really
6 the shop steward. I wasn't sent from the
7 council. So I didn't really take a full role
8 as the shop steward.
9 Q. So I want to ask my question again.
10 As you were there, you were there how
11 many weeks, let me ask approximately, I can
12 count the hours, but I don't have shop steward
13 reports, I am telling you that up front or I
14 would give them to you, because I want to be
15 fair.
16 What I'm saying is: How long did this
17 job last? It looks like it lasted over two
18 months.
19 MR. LOMBARDI: In terms of his
20 employment there?
21 MR. MACK: Yes.
22 A. It was about two months.
23 Q. How many -- was this approximately 600
24 hours, is that accurate in your mind, or is that
25 approximately in your own mind correct?
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2 A. Yes, there was a lot of overtime.
3 Q. Were you being paid appropriate rate
4 for your overtime?
5 A. Of course.
6 And were you being paid by payroll
7 check or paid in cash?
8 A. Payroll check. You have the --
9 Q. You may have just given it to me, I
10 haven't looked at it.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Let me look at it. Let me see where
13 my copies are.
14 A. Do you want mine?
15 Q. No, I presume here, and I should mark
16 them and I'm glad you mentioned them.
17 A. Can I use the bathroom?
18 Q. Yes.
19 MR. MACK: Let's take a break.
20 (Recess).
21 MR. MACK: Let's go back on the
22 record.
23 Q. Any time you need to take a break, we
24 will. We will take a break in another 10
25 minutes to give Mr. Bloom the reporter an
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2 opportunity to recover from me and my questions.
3 I have marked what is being called AA
4 10, which is a copy of what you brought us
5 today.
6 I wanted you to tell me in your own
7 words what is AA 10.
8 What are these records here that you
9 brought us?
10 A. These are the pay stubs from the job.
11 Q. There is the job we're talking about,
12 the L&D Installers in April, May and June of
13 2000?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Is there any particular reason why you
16 have these pay stubs and perhaps not other pay
17 stubs for other jobs you had that far back? Do
18 you understand my question?
19 Why do you save these pay stubs? Do
20 you have pay stubs for all your jobs in 2000?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How about all your jobs in '99?
23 A. I don't know. I don't know. I got
24 to dig.
25 Q. Let me reiterate what I said to you
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2 earlier, and that is that what I asked you for
3 last type, I'm not going to go back before '99,
4 all right? If you don't have any '99 records,
5 just tell me.
6 But you need to tell Mr. Lombardi that
7 if the records that refer to any of the jobs we
8 have talked about prior to 2000, which we talked
9 about last time exist, you need to dig for
10 those, make copies and provide them to Mr.
11 Lombardi so we can take a look at them.
12 There were answers last time where you
13 said, if I can look at my records, Mr. Mack, I
14 can give you a more accurate answer.
15 If those records exist, I would like to
16 see them because I think they may enable me at
17 least to see more precisely some of the detail.
18 Fair enough, you understand that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that agreeable?
21 A. It's agreeable.
22 Q. Bear with me for a moment while I take
23 a look at these.
24 (Pause).
25 To the best of your knowledge and
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2 belief, do these records accurately reflect the
3 actual hours and wage and whatever deductions
4 are appropriate for this time period on this
5 job?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. There is nothing beyond there, no cash
8 above this?
9 A. No.
10 Q. No money below this?
11 A. No.
12 Q. When I say money below, I'm talking
13 about sometimes people are forced to give back
14 money that they receive?
15 A. No.
16 Q. I'm sure you wouldn't permit that, that
17 is why I asked the question the way I did.
18 It would be fair to me to conclude from
19 these records that your first pay week ended on
20 April 18, 2000.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I don't want to dwell on this subject
23 much longer.
24 I want to ask: In your mind, why
25 didn't you take some steps to find out why there
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2 wasn't a shop steward for this job? What was
3 your thinking there, what was your analysis of
4 the situation?
5 A. I mean, I called it in to my business
6 agent. I figured he was going to send a shop
7 steward. He said keep an eye on the job. So I
8 just kept an eye on the job.
9 And I didn't really -- you know, I just
10 worked.
11 Q. I think I have the answer to this, but
12 the one sheet that you did, I think you
13 described, would it be safe to say that sheet
14 was never submitted either to the local or to
15 the District Council?
16 A. No.
17 Q. No, meaning that you never did submit
18 it to either the local union or the District
19 Council?
20 A. No.
21 MR. LOMBARDI: You did not.
22 A. I did not.
23 Q. When you say "no," you're sort of
24 double negativing. I want to make sure the
25 record is clear.
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2 If I could search the District Council
3 and I could search the local, there is no
4 prospect or any chance of my finding it, would
5 that be fair.
6 MR. LOMBARDI: Not because he
7 submitted it.
8 A. Right.
9 Q. You never submitted it to them?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you keep that sheet?
12 A. I don't know what I did with that
13 sheet.
14 Q. I would like you to look for it,
15 because I want to try to find out and get the
16 best of your recollection tonight who was on the
17 job besides yourself.
18 Take a shot at it right now, try to
19 tell me who was on the job.
20 Was your brother on the job?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Tell me who was on the job, even by
23 nickname as best you can remember.
24 A. I can't remember. I can't remember.
25 I have been through so many jobs, so
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2 many guys.
3 Q. Let me ask the question again, how many
4 carpenters worked on this job?
5 A. I would say roughly anywhere from 8 to
6 10, I guess, at the heat of the job.
7 Q. Were all of those individuals 157
8 members?
9 A. I couldn't even tell you exactly.
10 Q. Had you ever seen any of those
11 individuals before you started work on that job?
12 A. Do I remember faces --
13 Q. Take your time and think about it.
14 A. I think there was one guy, Sal.
15 Q. Can you describe Sal for me, is he a
16 157 person?
17 A. I think so.
18 Q. What can you tell me about Sal?
19 A. As far as --
20 Q. Height, weight, where he works, where
21 he lives?
22 A. He was an older guy.
23 Q. Let me say this, I want you to spend a
24 little thought here on seeing if you could
25 identify it, because the likelihood is that I
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2 will be able to or someone will be able to
3 subpoena L&D Installers and reference this file
4 and pull every employment record out.
5 I can't be certain of that so I
6 probably have a way of figuring out who these
7 people are eventually. If not, I can make life
8 miserable for the people at L&D who don't tell
9 me.
10 But I would like to take this
11 opportunity to ensure that you have exhausted
12 your memory with respect to who was on this job
13 with you at any time.
14 And the way the record stands at the
15 moment you are unable to identify anyone other
16 than Sal who worked with you on the job and what
17 we know about Sal is that he is an older guy.
18 Is there anything more you can tell us?
19 A. I think one of the foremen's name was
20 Anthony.
21 Q. How many foremen were on this job?
22 A. I think it was just Anthony. -
23 Q. Have you ever --
24 A. I can't remember.
25 Q. Have you ever seen Sal or Anthony again
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2 since you left this job anywhere?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Were they union members?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you did the sheet did they present
7 a card to you or show a card?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Were there any people on the job who
10 were not union members?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Is there anything else about this job
13 that you can tell me about who worked there, and
14 how the job was supervised and what happened on
15 the job?
16 A. Explain that.
17 Q. Let me try again, I'm sorry.
18 I'm trying to get as much information
19 about this job as I can. The record will
20 reflect what we have done.
21 I'm trying to find out who was on it.
22 I think I know there are no shop
23 steward reports.
24 I have asked you to try and find the
25 sheet that you did do. You have told me that
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2 everybody on the job was a union person.
3 And you have told me about Anthony who
4 was one of the foremen and you told me about
5 Sal.
6 That is about the sum I have of the
7 job.
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Is there anything else beyond that that
10 you can tell me?
11 A. Not that I can remember.
12 Was the job over when you left?
13 A. Basically, yes.
14 Q. When you say "basically," what does
15 that mean, just a little work left?
16 A. A little odds and ends, whatever punch
17 list there might be.
18 Q. Did a business agent ever visit the
19 job?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How many times did you talk to Bill
22 Hanley about the job?
23 I have two conversations, the one where
24 he suggested you go down to the building and
25 look for work because there was work going on in
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2 the building.
3 And I have a telephone call you
4 described shortly after you were there in which
5 you told him you were on the job and working,
6 correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Is there any other conversation with
9 Bill Hanley that you can recall concerning this
10 job?
11 A. Not that I can recall.
12 Q. Let me ask you this: After December
13 15, 2004, did you talk to any business agent at
14 157 about this subject matter? When I say this
15 subject matter I'm talking about this job or L&D
16 Installers?
17 MR. LOMBARDI: Do you understand the
18 question?
19 THE WITNESS: No.
20 MR. LOMBARDI: After we were here last
21 time.
22 A. No.
23 Q. The "no" is I did not talk to any
24 business agent at 157 about this job or L&D
25 Installers, that is what you are answering no
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2 to?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. You didn't talk to anyone?
5 A. No.
6 Q. The last time we were here, you had
7 difficulty in describing who was the business
8 agent that you had the communication with.
9 Was that because you didn't remember it
10 or because you wanted advice, I'm trying to be
11 safe here, you wanted advice as to your answer?
12 MR. LOMBARDI: Objection.
13 Don't answer that question. No.
14 MR. MACK: I can ask at the time --
15 MR. LOMBARDI: No. We can have the
16 question read back. That question as you asked
17 it I am not going to permit him to answer.
18 Q. The last time you were here you
19 testified you couldn't recall who you talked to.
20 Was that true when you raised it? I'm
21 making it easy here, did you want legal advice
22 before answering it?
23 MR. LOMBARDI: Objection.
24 Don't answer the question.
25 MR. MACK: Why not, what is
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2 objectionable about it?
3 MR. LOMBARDI: It's invading the
4 attorney/client privilege.
5 MR. MACK: It's not.
6 MR. LOMBARDI: It is.
7 MR. MACK: Explain.
8 MR. LOMBARDI: I don't feel required
9 to explain, then I may be having to explain why.
10 You're asking him to answer that
11 question based on whether and maybe what advice
12 he was given. I don't see how he can answer
13 that question.
14 Q. Was your testimony last time about your
15 failure of recollection accurate of who the
16 person you talked to was? That's the question.
17 MR. LOMBARDI: Do you understand the
18 question?
19 THE WITNESS: Can I talk to you?
20 MR. LOMBARDI: Yes.
21 (Witness and counsel confer.)
22 MR. MACK: Where do we stand at the
23 moment?
24 MR. LOMBARDI: By counsel, it is both
25 my belief and my client's belief that when that
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1 Arguelles
2 question was posed last time as to whether Mr.
3 Arguelles recalled who the business agent was
4 that he spoke to, it was at that moment in time
5 that he requested to speak to counsel.
6 So any response that you may have had
7 to that question was basically Mr. Arguelles
.8 indicating that he wanted to speak to counsel.
9 Q. Rather than pushing the point, what I
10 will change my question somewhat to is: Did
11 you remember when you were asked last time who
12 the business agent was that you talked to.
13 It's either going to go one way or the
14 other, or did you undertake certain steps after
15 December 15th in order to recall or refresh your
16 recollection who it was.
17 MR. LOMBARDI: I am going to forbid
18 him from answering that question.
19 Q. Did you take any steps after December
20 15th to help you remember who you had this
21 conversation with?
22 MR. LOMBARDI: Did he take any steps?
23 MR. MACK: Correct, any steps.
24 MR. LOMBARDI: Other than thought
25 processes?
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1 Arguelles
2 Q. Any steps other than thought processes?
3 MR. LOMBARDI: I would prefer, quite
4 frankly, because we are getting into an
5 attorney/client situation.
6 MR. MACK: We're not.
7 MR. LOMBARDI: You can say we're not.
8 But you have to understand, Walter, I am in a
9 much better position to know whether we are than
10 you are, quite frankly.
11 I think that we can understand that
12 when that question was posed last time, Mr.
13 Arguelles sought the advice of counsel, and we
14 agreed under certain circumstances to suspend
15 the hearing. The question has been asked, you
16 have an answer.
17 The question has been asked tonight.
18 You have an answer.
19 You can accept my representation or
20 not, but the question as to whether he recalled
21 last time and answered or did not answer or
22 sought the advice of counsel comes too close to
23 what our consultation was, what my advice was,
24 and what his action was in response to that
25 advice.
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1 Arguelles
2 You have the question. You have the
3 answer.
4 MR. MACK: That is not the limit of my
5 interest.
6 There is a very simple question, it has
7 nothing to do --
8 MR. LOMBARDI: It doesn't make it a
9 proper question.
10 MR. MACK: It has nothing to do with
11 your advice.
12 The question is simply --
13 Q. When you were asked the question last
14 time did you remember who you had this
15 conversation about the job with, "yes" or "no"?
16 MR. MACK: It has nothing to do with
17 your advice.
18 Q. If you didn't remember on December
19 15th, then I'm entitled to ask the questions.
20 What happened since that date to result
21 in your recollection today?
22 MR. LOMBARDI: No.
23 MR. MACK: Very simple questions.
24 MR. LOMBARDI: Very simple questions.
25 But it completely disregards the possibility
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1 Arguelles
2 that Mr. Arguelles wanted consultation with his
3 attorney before answering the question.
4 MR. MACK: So what? He either
5 remembered last time or didn't.
6 It's a simple question. I was
7 entitled to it last time. We gave you the
8 great courtesy of permitting all of the time
9 period to consult with him and we sat here late
10 in to the night.
11 And all I'm asking is --
12 Q. Is there a question that you failed to
13 recall it last time, which is possible.
14 If the answer is you did recall it but
15 you wanted legal advice, fine.
16 On the other hand, if it's the other
17 way I am entitled yo what happened after
18 December 15th to answer the question.
19 MR. LOMBARDI: He has already answered
20 your question that he has not spoken to anybody
21 about this matter.
22 MR. MACK: He didn't, he said he
23 hadn't spoken to any business agents. I haven't
24 asked "anybody".
25 MR. LOMBARDI: You want to ask him
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1 Arguelles
2 that question, you can ask him that question and
3 you will get an answer.
4 I don't think that you can so neatly
5 separate whether it was a matter of recollection
6 or a matter of something he and I spoke about in
7 our consultation in how to deal with that
8 question and that answer.
9 If he answers the question did he
10 recollect last time, in order to explain his
11 answer, he will have to divulge something he
12 discussed with me.
13 So --
14 MR. MACK: Not true.
15 MR. LOMBARDI: I believe it is true.
16 And I am in a position better than you to know
17 that.
18 We didn't discuss last time when he
19 comes back here on January 7th I'm going to ask
20 him whether he recollected then but needed your
21 advice as counsel before answering it.
22 So I don't want to play games here.
23 And you are here to ask him questions about
24 April through June 2000, L&D Installers.
25 I don't think we are here to
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1 Arguelles
2 interrogate Mr. Arguelles about the confluence
3 and the convergence on the advice of counsel and
4 how he was handling his response to a particular
5 question back then.
6 MR. MACK: Let me tell you why I
7 differ. I'm not going to spend a lot of time,
8 we can go to the judge on the subject.
9 MR. LOMBARDI: All right.
10 MR. MACK: For instance,
11 hypothetically, if your client had been under
12 some instruction or some fear or something of
13 that nature or basically felt that he was in a
14 situation where he was not at liberty to
15 disclose that information based upon some
16 warning, notice, direction of someone other than
17 his lawyer, I certainly am entitled to get that
18 information.
19 MR. LOMBARDI: That is a different
20 question.
21 MR. MACK: It is not a different
22 question.
23 The next question is if, in fact he did
24 not recall at the time who that person was, but
25 since then, which at least I have no way of
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1 Arguelles
2 knowing without asking the questions, he
3 undertook certain behavior to help him recall it
4 whatever that was, that is certainly a fair area
5 of my questioning.
6 I have no interest in whatever advice
7 you gave him about how to get time or whatever
8 you said to him unless you refreshed his
9 recollection some way, or gave him some
10 instruction.
11 I am not going there.
12 And, in fact, what concerns me is that
13 we went -- I think we went at considerable
14 liberty.
15 In most cases if the judge were here he
16 would say answer the question, you are not
17 getting two and a half weeks to think about the
18 answer.
19 MR. LOMBARDI: There is no judge here,
20 don't hit me over the head with Judge Haight.
21 Ask a question and I will decide on a
22 question-by-question basis whether he can answer
23 it. Okay?
24 MR. MACK: Right.
25 Q. When you were asked about the
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1 Arguelles
2 conversation with the business agent on December
3 15th, did you at the time the question was asked
4 recall who that business agent was?
5 MR. LOMBARDI: It's the same question.
6 MR. MACK: It is the same question.
7 But there is nothing objectionable about that
8 question.
9 MR. LOMBARDI: I feel there is
10 something objectionable about it. I have
11 spoken volumes already about why I feel it's
12 objectionable.
13 MR. MACK: Whether he knew the name on
14 December 15th or not?
15 MR. LOMBARDI: You are sitting there
16 with the benefit of a transcript that has not
17 been disclosed to me or my client. Fine.
18 It is my recollection, my client's
19 recollection, that he invoked his right to
20 counsel to discuss his response if any to that
21 question with counsel before responding to it.
22 We have come here tonight. He has
23 responded to that. question.
24 For you to ask him anything about his
25 response to that question last time, when the
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Arguelles
2 question and the response were interrupted by
3 consultation with counsel, comes much too close
4 to the attorney/client privilege for my comfort.
5 And I don't think we are impeding your
6 investigation tonight at all, okay, by saying
7 I want a little comfort room about my privilege
8 with my client and his privilege with me with
9 respect to the basis for the interruption of the
10 interview last time at the positing of that
11 question.
12 MR. MACK: I say okay because I don't
13 have the judge available for you and I to visit
14 tonight.
15 You should assume there won't be a
16 visit on the subject.
17 I disagree with you, I am not in any
18 way seeking to probe your advice.
19 MR. LOMBARDI: I know you are not
20 directly.
21 But I'm asking you, if you want to
22 visit Judge Haight and bother Judge Haight about
23 something like this, fine.
24 I also understand and respect and I
25 think you will get responsive answers from Mr.
24
1 Arguelles
2 Arguelles as to whether it was a business agent
3 or anybody else, between 12-15-04 and today,
4 that he discussed this hearing with, that
5 question with, L&D or that job with, that
6 affected his answer.
7 What I am trying to say to you is from
8 the positing of that question on 12-15-04 to the
9 answer of that question now involves the
10 operation of advice of counsel.
11 MR. MACK: I hear your argument. I
12 don't credit it. I hear it.
13 MR. LOMBARDI: You are not in a
14 position to credit my argument, Walter.
15 MR. MACK: My feeling is I will
16 proceed and we'll make a record. If I at some
17 time conclude there is something that I need to
18 go further on, I'm saying I think there is
19 another side which is a more rational one.
20 And this penumbra of something to do
21 that I have anything to say about it is an
22 argument I don't credit. I may decide to have
23 assessed by the judge in the future.
24 MR. LOMBARDI: I want the record to be
25 clear, I am not trying to obstruct your ability
247
1 Arguelles
2 to find out as is a common and necessary thing
3 for you to do as an investigator here, to find
4 out whether his response to that question has
5 been influenced, effected, impacted in any way
6 by anything other than his recollection and the
7 advice of counsel.
8 If you want to ask those questions,
9 fine.
10 MR. MACK: I am going to ask those
11 questions. I am going to go ahead.
12 MR. LOMBARDI: All right.
13 Q. Was your reluctance to answer that
14 question in any way caused or affected by
15 comments or statements of anyone other than your
16 lawyer?
17 MR. LOMBARDI: Do you understand the
18 question?
19 A. Repeat it again.
20 Q. Sure.
21 Was your failure or reluctance to
22 answer the question about the conversation with
23 the business agent in any way influenced or
24 caused or affected by any person, statement,
25 comment or direction other than your attorney's
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1 Arguelles
2 advice?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Since December 15th, have you taken any
5 step of any kind other than getting your L&D
6 records to assist you in your recollection of
7 the events surrounding this job.
8 Do you understand that question?
9 A. Right.
10 In other words, talk to someone, look
11 at a record?
12 A. No.
13 Q. No?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Had you worked for L&D beforehand? In
16 other words, do you have a recollection of
17 working for that company before this job?
18 A. I don't think so.
19 I mean a lot of jobs, a lot of years.
20 I don't think so.
21 Q. Did you have a conversation with anyone
22 from L&D on this or about this job concerning
23 the necessity of having appropriate pay records
24 or ensuring that your pay would be in a certain
25 fashion, do you understand my question?
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2 MR. LOMBARDI: Can you repeat it?
3 Q. Did you have any conversation or
4 discussion with anyone representing L&D
5 Installers about your rate of pay or the records
6 of your being paid?
7 A. When?
8 . Q. At any time concerning this job?
9 In other words -- well, that's the
10 question.
11 A. No. They know the scale at the time,
12 the contract. They know what the carpenter has
13 to get paid. There is no discussion.
14 Q. So the natural question is: Why
15 wouldn't they also have -- they have an
16 obligation to report the job as well.
17 MR. LOMBARDI: Are you asking him why
18 the company didn't do something?
19 Q. I'm asking whether there was any
20 discussion in which you participated, because it
21 sounded like you were saying they were doing
22 everything right?
23 And I wanted to make certain that in
24 respect of their not being a shop steward
25 report, there are a number of individuals and/or
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2 organizations that presumably have the
3 obligation to ensure the shop steward is there.
4 All I want to make sure is: You had a
5 discussion, two discussions, with Bill Hanley.
6 Did you have any discussions with L&D
7 as a carpenter saying hey, there should be a
8 shop steward report here or there should be a
9 shop steward on this job?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did anyone, to your knowledge, ever
12 object, either to your knowledge or in your
13 presence to the fact there were no shop steward
14 reports on this job or no shop steward on the
15 job?
16 MR. LOMBARDI: Anyone?
17 MR. MACK: Anyone.
18 A. Not that I can remember.
19 MR. LOMBARDI: Let me talk to him for
20 a second.
21 MR. MACK: All right.
22 (Witness and counsel confer.)
23 MR. LOMBARDI: Can we read back the
24 last three questions.
25 (Record read.)
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2 MR. LOMBARDI: If you recall my client
3 testified earlier basically he held himself out
4 to L&D as the shop steward.
5 MR. MACK: Wait a minute, if that is
6 what he's saying, let me pursue that.
7 MR. LOMBARDI: He did tell that you
8 before.
9 MR. MACK: He said "I sort of."
10 We'll cover that.
11 MR. LOMBARDI: I want to make sure
12 that long question there, it would be responsive
13 to that question for him to say: They thought
14 I was a shop steward.
15 MR. MACK: Let me pursue that.
16 Q. Did you have a discussion with anyone
17 from L&D or representing L&D in which you
18 represented yourself as the shop steward for the
19 job?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What was that conversation and with
22 whom?
23 A. When I checked their cards, I took the
24 role of the shop steward. Just to make sure
25 everybody had their cards and it was legit.
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2 Q. Everybody had their cards.
3 But you only prepared one sheet, isn't
4 that correct? You are not suggesting to me
5 that you performed all the duties of a union
6 shop stewards on that job, are you?
7 MR. LOMBARDI: Walter, he is not
8 saying that to you at all.
9 The question is -- if I understand you
10 correctly -- what was L&D's understanding.
11 MR. MACK: We can't talk about L&D's
12 understanding.
13 MR. LOMBARDI: What his understanding
14 was of whether L&D expected somebody else to
15 come out, thought he was the shop steward.
16 MR. MACK: Let's not talk about L&D's
17 understanding but your client's statements to
18 L&D that he remembers.
19 MR. LOMBARDI: Your question was much
20 more general than that.
21 MR. MACK: I'm trying to get the facts
22 here and so let me proceed.
23 I do want to get as much from him on
24 this subject rather than you, unless you were on
25 the L&D job.
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2 MR. LOMBARDI: You know I was not on
3 the L&D job. You have seen me here enough to
4 know I am quiet as a church mouse for the most
5 part. But I have concerns about the way these
6 questions are coming, and whether his answers
7 are being understood.
8 MR. MACK: I am pretty good at getting
9 to the facts. I appreciate your help but I
10 would rather hear from him than you.
11 MR. LOMBARDI: You will hear from me
12 as I deem necessary on behalf of my client,
13 Walter.
14 Continue.
15 Q. Did you tell someone from L&D that you
16 were the carpenter shop steward on this job?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you do that on more than one
19 occasion?
20 A. On one occasion to who?
21 Q. Did you do it on more than one
22 occasion, or is this one conversation.
23 I'm trying to find out how many times.
24 A. As soon as I told them that they
25 assumed I was the shop steward.
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2 Q. Let me be careful about what is in the
3 minds of L&D.
4 I will have the privilege of talking to
5 the people from L&D, that may be very well what
6 they say. I want to know your side of the
7 situation before I talk to them.
8 And what they had in their mind or what
9 they were entitled to rely upon is something for
10 me to ask them about.
11 What I am asking you about is your
12 statement, and I think you have told me, you did
13 tell them that you were the union shop steward
14 on the job, that is what I heard you just to
15 say, is that right?
16 A. I acted as a shop steward.
17 That is not what I'm asking.
18 I'm asking you: Did you tell them
19 that you were serving as the shop steward on the
20 job?
21 MR. LOMBARDI: Did you say to them no
22 so many words, I am the shop steward on this
23 job.
24 Do you recall ever saying that exactly
25 to them?
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2 If you don't recall saying exactly that
3 to them, your answer is no.
4 A. I don't recall. It's five years ago.
5 Q. The reason I want to make sure I have
6 what you did as accurately as I can.
7 If, in fact, you told them you were the
8 shop steward, I would like to know that.
9 If you told them I am acting as the
10 shop steward, those words have a different
11 meaning.
12 I want to make certain that I have your
13 description as best you understood it of what
14 your role was on that job. And how you
15 expressed it to L&D.
16 If you did, what is your recollection
17 of that expression.
18 A. I don't recall that. I don't recall
19 how I worded it.
20 Q. When you say you did a sheet, was the
21 sheet in the format of a District Council shop
22 steward report? Or is there a document of some
23 other kind and you are just keeping a list of
24 the names of the carpenters who were on the job,
25 which was it, if you remember?
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1 Arguelles
2 A. I'm not sure.
3 Q. I know I have already asked you to
4 search your records to see if you have a copy of
5 this sheet. You have already told me that you
6 would.
7 One point that I think is of some
8 significance here is: Since this job went in
9 from May through June, and there would have been
10 need for a dues payment, did you check the cards
11 to make certain that their dues were up-to-date
12 of the carpenters who were there?
13 A. I don't recall.
14 Q. Now, you are certainly familiar with
15 all the duties of a shop steward. You went to
16 school and we'll talk about that after.
17 But I would like you to summarize for
18 me for me what duties as a shop steward you
19 performed on this L&D job, did you actually
20 perform.
21 I know what you didn't do. Now I'm
22 asking what in fact, you did do as the shop
23 steward.
24 MR. LOMBARDI: Other than what he's
25 already described?
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2 MR. MACK: His testimony is as it is.
3 Q. I would like to get a summary of how
4 you performed your role as a carpenter, put it
5 that way.
6 As a carpenter on this particular job
7 site for which we have this L&D job, for which
8 you provided us the pay records, AA 10?
9 What did you do as a shop steward?
10 A. Basically just checked their cards.
11 Q. How many times did you check their
12 cards?
13 A. Just once. If I see the guy, I would
14 check him.
15 Q. When you saw him the first time, you
16 checked his card once, that would be the extent
17 of your service as a shop steward, would that be
18 fair?
19 A. That would be fair.
20 MR. MACK: Let me ask my colleagues,
21 Mr. Rothman and Mr. Scarvalone, if there is
22 anything further on this topic before we move on
23 that either of you gentlemen would like to ask
24 before we move onto the next job?
25 BY MR. ROTHMAN:
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I Arguelles
2 Q. During the time that you were on the
3 job, did any new workers come onto the job?
A. I don't recall.
5 Q. I guess another way of asking it is:
6 Did the crew of workers stay exactly the same
7 from the time you started and carded the guys
8 the first time, until the end?
9 A. I really don't recall how many guys
10 there were the first day I got there, until the
11 middle of the job. I'm just trying to picture
12 how many guys in total. But I really don't
13 remember how many guys actually the first day I
14 got there, or the next week or week after.
15 Q. Do I understand that you used an actual
16 shop steward payroll report form to write down
17 the names?
18 MR. MACK: I don't think he remembers.
19 A. I'm not sure if it was an actual shop
20 steward report or if I wrote it on a paper. I
21 really don't remember.
22 Q. Do you remember if you asked the
23 foreman to sign it the way you would on a
24 regular shop steward report?
25 A. No, I don't recall.
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1 Arguelles
2 Q. Do you remember if you ever took time
3 off from this job, tell the employer that you
4 were going down to the hall?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 MR. ROTHMAN: No further questions.
7 MR. MACK: Mr. Scarvalone?
8 EXAMINATION BY
9 MR. SCARVALONE:
10 I understand you don't recall if it was
11 on a shop steward form or some other piece of
12 paper, when you wrote the names down, why did
13 you do that?
14 A. I think when I checked their card I
15 just wrote their name down.
16 Q. Why did you check their card?
17 A. I wanted to make sure everybody was
18 union. Everybody had a union card.
19 Q. Why was that?
20 A. Because that's your first instinct as a
21 shop steward, to make sure everyone has a union
22 card on the job.
23 Q. In your mind you were the shop steward
24 on the job?
25 A. Let's put it this way, I'm not a
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2 company guy. I'm a local guy.
3 You always want to make sure the
4 company is doing the right thing.
5 MR. MACK: Anything else?
6 MR. SCARVALONE: That's it.
7 FURTHER EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACK:
9 Q. Let's move on so we can progress and be
10 done hopefully before 10 p.m. tonight.
11 After you left this job, I already
12 asked you, and Bill Hanley is the only business
13 agent you talked to about the job, you talked to
14 him twice, but after you left the job, did this
15 job ever become a topic of conversation with a
16 business agent afterwards?
17 A. Not that I. recall.
18 Q. Because what I' looking at here, you
19 left the job, it appears, sometime in June 2000
20 based upon your shop stewards reports -- excuse
21 me, your payroll records?
22 Did you ever, after departing the job,
23 have a conversation with Bill Hanley or any
24 other business agent at 157 or otherwise about
25 the lack of shop steward reports or anything
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2 else about the job? That's the question.
3 A. Not that I can remember.
4 MR. MACK: Let's take a five-minute
5 break, if we may.
6 (Recess.).
7 MR. MACK: Let's go back on the
8 record.
9 I had forgotten that Don Sobocienski,
10 the handsome gentlemen sitting to my right was
11 not here the last time you were here, Mr.
12 Arguelles.
13 Although everyone else here knows him,
14 you probably do know this, he is the
15 investigator who works with me, his presence
16 here is to make sure I don't make too many more
17 mistakes between him and your counsel.
18 Hopefully I will try to stay on the straight and
19 narrow, he may ask some questions from time to
20 time since he is generally much more informed in
21 detail than I am on a number of subjects.
22 That is who it is, I apologize for you
23 for not introducing him directly when you first
24 came in.
25 I think you met him before, I think the
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1 Arguelles
2 record should reflect.
3 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: We have not met, we
4 could have met, we did not.
5 MR. MACK: That is true also.
6 That is why he is here and may ask
7 several questions as time goes on.
8 BY MR. MACK:
9 Q. The last question on this L&D site here
10 is: Was there any reason to believe during the
11 course of that job that any carpenter was not
12 being paid proper wage and benefit?
13 A. Not to my knowledge.
14 Q. As far as you knew, everyone including
15 yourself were being paid by L&D Installers the
16 proper wage and benefits under the collective
17 bargaining agreement, is that right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. So if you would gather together the
20 exhibits we used before, which are primarily
21 AA 2, AA 3, and AA 7.
22 I would like you to give me some idea
23 of what was your next assignment, what was the
24 next thing that happened to you after you left
25 the L&D job?
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2 You will notice that one of the
3 questions I have for you here is that you're
4 added to the list on June 19, 2000.
5 As I Recall your pay records, let me
6 just make sure I check that before I open my
7 trap, that you were actually paid through the
8 29th of June, as I see the record, that you
9 furnished here or at least through the pay date
10 of June 29th.
11 It would appear to me based upon your
12 own records that you were on the list despite
13 still working for L&D Installers, would that be
14 a fair conclusion?
15 A. Yes.
16 Was there any particular reason why you
17 felt entitled to add yourself to the list on
18 June 19th, despite your work at this building at
19 L&D?
20 What was going through your mind? I
21 know you have answered this question before, but
22 I don't want to presume or assume that your
23 answer would be the same.
24 So what is your answer to that
25 question?
1 Arguelles 264
2 A. It's this list that doesn't work. You
3 feel like you don't know when your next job is
4 coming.
5 Q. One of the things I'm trying to make a
6 habit of saying is, and I did say this when you
7 first were here: I have no power or authority
8 of any kind to make judgments or discipline or
9 do anything other than write reports and make
10 recommendations. All right.
11 But I have also started to say and make
12 a point and invite the carpenters who appear
13 before me to feel very comfortable in expressing
14 their views of the system as it works, and
15 making any suggestions or comments about it,
16 because we are not talking in a sense about
17 moral right or wrong.
18 We are talking about a system that
19 functions as to which some people like the
20 system and some people don't like the system or
21 like certain aspects and don't.
22 Since I am merely an agent of the court
23 and knowing Judge Haight as I do being a very
24 conscientious, and shall we say, involved human
25 being, I would like to invite you to express
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1 Arguelles
2 your view why the system, as it exists in your
3 opinion, doesn't work, such that you felt that
4 it was important or permissible to list yourself
5 on the out-of-work list.
6 A. It can be all night if I have to start
7 talking about this list.
8 Q. If you could, with the benefit of
9 counsel, not with standing everybody here would
10 probably not want to spend the night doing so,
11 could you in a sentence or two state your views
12 of the subject?
13 A. Let's put it this way. Before this
14 list came about there was company men and local
15 men.
16 And when this list came about, all the
17 good local men, the good stand-up union guys got
18 burnt by this list, because the company was
19 allowed to request all their men to a job.
20 They only had to take the shop steward.
21 You just felt like you sold out with
22 this list. You put your name on a list, these
23 guys don't work for six months as a regular
24 worker.
25 I don't want to be a shop steward,
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2 that's the only way you can get a job in a
3 decent amount of time to work.
4 Even if I'm a good carpenter, which I
5 am, you can ask any employer I work for, it
6 doesn't matter what your skills are, it's
7 basically these companies do what they want as
8 far as manning the job.
9 Q. That's because of the request system?
10 A. Of course it's the request.
11 Q. Have you read my referred to Judge
12 Haight?
13 A. And I believe that, it's a good point
14 you made that. When I heard it I said maybe we
15 got somebody who is going to make a change.
16 Good carpenters can't get a job because
17 they don't have an in with a company or they
18 stood up to a company on an issue.
19 Once you get that -- you get burnt by
20 company because you stand up for your rights,
21 they don't want to know you no more. They
22 really don't want to know you.
23 Q. They don't request you.
24 A. They don't request, they don't put you
25 on. You're red-flagged with the company and
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2 that's itself.
3 That's why a lot of guys ride there
4 list, you can not get a job with the company.
5 The company hand picks their guys and
6 that is it.
7 Have you to go begging to a company for
8 a job.
9 A lot of good local union guys got
10 burnt by this list, that's why guys ride the
11 list and do what they do, because they can't get
12 work.
13 Look at Local 3, everybody gets a fair
14 shake. If you had some kind of fair shake
15 where everybody gets the same amount of work you
16 wouldn't have half this stuff. You wouldn't
17 have half of it.
18 Q. What if the 50 percent of the 50/50 was
19 determined by the union or the District Council,
20 would that go some way to solve the problem, in
21 other words they were the ones who put the 50
22 percent, the union people on.
23 Do you have an opinion on that topic?
24 A. Yes, that's the way it should be.
25 That's the way it should be. The company
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2 shouldn't have this request where you count the
3 guy as a union guy. Basically he's a company
4 guy.
5 Which there's nothing wrong, we are all
6 union men. But as far as everybody getting a
7 fair amount of work, it's not happening. It's
8 not happening.
9 Q. I appreciate your comments.
10 Was there anything about my report --
11 did you read my third report or were you just
12 told about it?
13 A. I think I did read some of it.
14 Was there anything about the report you
15 took issue with or anything about it that you
16 thought I was wrong about or you felt I did
17 not --
18 A. I just remember the part with the
19 50/50, where the companies took advantage of
20 that.
21 Q. You agree with my view on that?
22 A. Of course.
23 If everybody got a fair shake, it would
24 be a beautiful thing. It would be a beautiful
25 thing.
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2 Q. And it would mean there would be less
3 decisions such as yours here to ride the list?
4 A. Of course.
5 Everybody -- we are all carpenters, we
6 are just looking for a day's pay, day's work.
7 That's all we are.
8 Q. I appreciate you expressing your views.
9 There are many people, some sitting here may
10 have differing views on that topic. I know the
11 judge would be interested in your views.
12 You have certainly had enough time in
13 this industry as a carpenter, as a union member
14 to have the right to express that view and I
15 thank you for having done so.
16 I will give you another opportunity as
17 the evening goes on, if there are other topics
18 that you would like to express your opinion, you
19 certainly are welcome to do so.
20 I know the judge is attentive to the
21 concerns and views of all carpenters.
22 Thank you for your comments.
23 appreciate it.
24 Let's move on beyond that listing, and
25 after you're added to the list, you are unable
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2 to be reached.
3 Eventually on June 5th you're referred
4 to a job which you stay on as I can read it,
5 just a number of hours, about 4.
6 MR. LOMBARDI: July 5th?
7 Q. July 5th.
8 So let's take a look at that. This
9 may be another topic. You may need to look not
10 only at the work referral history but you may
11 also need to look at the specific reference in
12 AA 7 which refers to that dispatch.
13 Just take a moment.
14 So my questions on these topics, and
15 I'll try to, out of fairness to everybody here,
16 try to do this in a reasonably efficient way.
17 You can always assume I will ask you about the
18 job, the dispatch when you're only on the job
19 for a very short period of time as is true in
20 this job.
21 My question will be: Why is it such a
22 short time?
23 This one we're talking about
24 specifically -- have you found the reference in
25 AA 7, Techno Acoustics.
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1 Arguelles
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. It is 99 Park Avenue, George DeLascio
4 appears to be the individual.
5 Do you remember that job and why you
6 were only there such a short period of time?
7 A. No, I don't.
8 Q. Do you remember actually going to that
9 job?
10 A. No, I don't.
11 Q. Let's move on.
12 Do you recall, after this L&D
13 Installer's job that we spent so much time on
14 tonight, do you remember what your state of mind
15 was, were you seeking employment any particular
16 way, were you trying to find your next job, what
17 do you remember your strategy, if that's the
18 right word, after the L&D job ended?
19 Were you going to the hall, were you
20 trying to talk to various business agents?
21 What efforts, if any, were you taking
22 in order to find your next job?
23 A. I just probably put my name on the
24 list.
25 Q. In any event you will see you are back
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Arguelles
2 on the out-of-work list on July 6 and you are
3 referred out again -- you remember last time we
4 talked about the 3 hour disparity between the
5 lists, you will see on July 6th at 8:51 a.m. you
6 are back on the list, which pretty much means
7 the next day after this 99 Park Avenue job.
8 Then you are referred out again almost
9 immediately on July 6th at 5:44.
10 And that job is a global job at 335
11 Madison Avenue.
12 So if you can find that in AA 7, and
13 again you're back on the list the very next day,
14 and so my question is: What happened there,
15 that's also a referral by George.
16 Let me strike that and say that is my
17 misreading.
18 If you look at the written document the
19 caller -- let me go at it from 335 Madison.
20 Do you remember that job, either going
21 to it or --
22 A. Where?
23 MR. LOMBARDI: 335 Madison, do you
24 remember the location.
25 A. What is the name of the company?
1 Arguelles 273
2 Q. It says Global Interiors, but the
3 actual sheet says Lokey Construction, Inc.?
4 MR. SOBOCIENSKI: Lokey is a
5 predecessor of Global.
6 Q. It is at the same site and same date.
7 The question is: Do you remember the
8 job and why did you not stay on the job, if you
9 remember.
10 A. Lokey, Lokey -- yes, I think I remember
11 that job.
12 Q. What do you remember about it?
13 A. I think me and the owner didn't have --
14 there was a disagreement there.
15 Q. Do you recall the nature of the
16 disagreement?
17 A. No, we just didn't get along. We just
18 didn't get along.
19 Q. The key documents as we go through
20 this, I'll try to be as efficient as possible,
21 are the benefit fund records, the work referral
22 history and the actual records of dispatch?
23 If you have those handy as we go
24 through them you probably know my questions
25 better than I, before I even ask them.
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2 I know Mr. Lombardi has that in mind as
3 well.
4 You will see there there are no hours
5 reported for you for either of those jobs. And
6 both of those two jobs you're back the next day.
7 And what you've told me at least with respect to
8 global, they pay for you one day there, it's .
9 under global interior with a pay period ending
10 7-31.
11 There is also a wood works reporting of
12 benefits for you for July.
13 You're back on the list, on July 7th.
14 And you're referred out on July 11th.
15 Let's go to that, you're back on the
16 list the next day again. I'm trying to figure
17 out what the problem is here. Not that a
18 problem is necessary, you see Sy-Bee Contracting
19 company, a company which pays you for one day.
20 140 Broadway, 32nd floor.
21 You're dispatched at approximately 3:43
22 p.m. as a shop steward.
23 A. Sy-Bee, I don't remember that one.
24 Q. Metal framing is listed there.
25 What I have found, and forgive me for
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2 making any assumptions here, often or at least
3 occasionally, maybe that is a better use of the
4 word, when a carpenter as a shop steward goes to
5 a job, stays one day and goes off it's because
6 they have another job in mind that they're
7 interested in finding.
8 That may or may not have been the case
9 with you.
10 But this here again is another job in
11 which you stay on one day.
12 You have explained one of those by
13 you're having an interaction with the employer.
14 I'm not entirely certain, I'm sure in
15 many cases shop stewards and owners or their
16 representatives have disagreements about
17 jurisdiction and concerns.
18 In many ways that might be a healthy
19 part of the relationship because a shop steward
20 has to stand up for the jurisdictions and
21 sometimes may be all is not love and kisses in
22 that interaction. I'm sure you would tell me
23 that.
24 So I'm not entirely certain, if you say
25 you're not getting along, that is a sufficient
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2 reason for leaving a job or not.
3 A. I think I got laid off.
4 Q. That's different?
5 A. I think that's it. I think I got laid
6 off.
7 Q. Let me urge you, I know this is late
8 and you're trying hard, I don't want to be
9 unappreciative of your effort here, when you
10 tell me "I think," I know it's sometime in the
11 past, it's 4 and a half years ago.
12 I realize you certainly might not have
13 it immediately in mind.
14 Do you recall the nature of the
15 dispute, and second of all were you laid off by
16 the contractor?
17 The job I'm talking about is the one
18 that we just talked about a moment ago. And
19 that is the job at 335 Madison, the Lokey or
20 Global job.
21 Were you laid off there or what
22 happened?
23 A. Yes, it was kind of like a laid off
24 type of -- go on your -- we didn't get along.
25 My best interest was to get out of there.
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2 Q. Do you remember the nature of what the
3 issue was?
4 A. The guy was just like -- I don't know.
5 He was like -- what was the problem there --
6 Let me tell you why I'm interested in
7 this. If the reason you didn't get along was he
8 insisted on people working through lunch or
9 people take cash or there's no overtime, or if
10 he didn't like what clothes you wear, I would
11 have a different view of the significance of it.
12 That's why I asked you about the topic.
13 A. I think one of the issues was I was
14 filling out the sheets. He was telling me you
15 don't do this on my time, you do it on -- you
16 know -- on your time.
17 When I get to the job you have to make
18 sure everybody goes on the sheet.
19 Q. You bet?
20 A. And he just started like that. We
21 just didn't get along. We just didn't get
22 along.
23 Q. Let me tell you why there is important
24 to me.
25 As Mr. Rothman knows, I am extremely
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2 interested in situations where a union
3 representative receives an adverse action such
4 as a layoff because the shop steward is seeking
5 to enforce the terms of the collective
6 bargaining agreement.
7 It is not all that far from what you
8 just told me about, to see and make certain that
9 the contractor doesn't have sway over a shop
10 steward acting in the best interests of the
11 union.
12 And I focus on that, and those
13 opportunities.
14 So if the gentleman from Lokey or
15 Global was acting in a way in which you were
16 denied the time that is accorded you under the
17 collective bargaining agreement to do union
18 business, which is keeping track and writing a
19 proper shop steward report and going to the hall
20 on an occasion, a specific period to report
21 that, in my view that person would be in
22 violation of the collective bargaining
23 agreement. And should receive some inquiry.
24 I can't do it in every case.
25 If on the other hand he's just a
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2 complete jerk and you're acting on your
3 discretion not to have to put up with a jerk,
4 that is another topic.
5 That's why I'm probing on the subject.
6 Did this gentleman from Global or Lokey
7 or whatever the situation deny you a right that
8 you had as a shop steward, or did he simply act
9 in a way that you chose not to have to put up .
10 with him or neither or both?
11 A. It was a little bit of both.
12 Q. Did you in any way relate your problem
13 with being able to do union business to a
14 business agent, if you remember?
15 A. I'm not sure if I called up or not.
16 Q. Would it be your practice to ask for a
17 business agent's intervention if you were being
18 denied your rights to acts as a shop steward?
19 A. If I felt it was serious enough, yes.
20 I'm not going to call up on every little issue.
21 I feel like I should be able to handle
22 myself.
23 If it becomes a serious issue or
24 whatever.
25 Q. If there is any time in the jobs that
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2 remain to us tonight as we move along in which
3 you did call a business agent because you felt
4 that you were being denied your opportunity to
5 act as a shop steward, I want to make certain
6 you raise that.
7 In other words, we are going to go
8 through almost every job tonight. I realize
9 some jobs you are on for a very long time.
10 If there is an instance where you felt
11 an employer denied you or tried to deny you your
12 power or authority as a shop steward, and you
13 did relate it, or even if you didn't relate it,
14 I would be interested in that topic.
15 Try to raise that with me if we get to
16 a job and I neglect to ask you about it, fair
17 enough?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So to move along here, what about this
20 Sy-Bee Contracting Company, do you remember the
21 circumstances, job's name is E.W. Blanche, I'm
22 trying to find out why your time on that job was
23 as short as it was, if you remember?
24 A. Sy-Bee -- I don't remember that one.
25 Q. 140 Broadway, it's very close to where
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2 we are here right now.
3 MR. LOMBARDI: The Equitable building
4 is 120.
5 Q. It's probably two blocks away?
6 A. I don't recall that one.
7 Q. In any event, as the work referral
8 history reflects you are referred to the job,
9 you're back on the list the very next morning?
10 Obviously something happened.
11 Again, do you have in mind during this
12 time period any particular job that you are
13 looking to obtain and wish, so that might be a
14 factor in your decisions?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Let's go to the next dispatch.
17 Again, all we are doing is proceeding
18 chronologically.
19 You are back on the list on July 12 --
20 excuse me, July 13. And the very same day,
21 approximately 6 hours after you're back on the
22 list you were referred out on July 13 to Cord
23 Contracting, Trump Tower. The job starts the
24 13th, actually.
25 It's a cord job, listed there on 7-31,
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2 only 7 hours reported under benefits.
3 Again, it is a job that you do not stay
4 at.
5 I'm trying to find out why.
6 The job location is Trump Tower, 767
7 5th Avenue, ceiling/drywall are the skills.
8 What is the story there, Mr. Arguelles,
9 if you remember?
10 A. Cord --
11 How long did I stay there?
12 Q. It looks to me like one day.
13 MR. ROTHMAN: Paid for a day, but the
14 record indicates he may not even have been there
15 for a day because he's dispatched at 3:30 in the
16 afternoon on the 12th to start on the 13th.
17 But on the 13th his name is back on the
18 list at 9:17 a.m. in the morning.
19 MR. MACK: Right.
20 Q. As we said last time, all we have is
21 the paperwork here. Your recollection -- I'm
22 trying to figure out what's happening here.
23 Because on July 13th there's also a New
24 Amsterdam referral.
25 You are paid for 7 hours by Cord.
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2 There is also a referral here to 88
3 Pine Street.
4 You can see the records. The records
5 are designed to assist you in explaining.
6 But I see you go through a lot of
7 dispatches here. There may be mistakes on the
8 part of -- maybe something happened here.
9 I'm asking you to look at the records
10 and see if you can figure out what the
11 explanation is.
12 You see the records.
13 A. I do. I just don't recall.
14 Q. Do you remember any problems or
15 anything that's going on there?
16 A. No.
17 Is there any recollection given all
18 these job sites? I find usually mention of a
19 job site or the contractor, if there is a
20 recollection, that will trigger it.
21 Do any of those job sites beyond your
22 telling me about the one where you had the
23 difficulty with the owner, with Global, Lokey,
24 is there any other explanation you can proffer
25 or offer to me as to why your time or at least
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2 even your association with these job sites was
3 as short as it was?
4 A. No. I can't.
5 Q. Now, you're back on the out-of-work
6 list on July 18, 2000.
7 I noticed there are a couple of things
8 here we need to. talk about, all right.
9 On July 18th at 8:56 you're back on the
10 list.
11 At 8:57 you add foreman layout skill.
12 MR. LOMBARDI: Can I have a moment,
13 Walter?
14 MR. MACK: Yes.
15 (Witness and counsel confer).
16 Q. Let's go back on the record. I know
17 you wanted to consult.
18 As a result of that, is there anything
19 that need be said on the record?
20 MR. LOMBARDI: The first of those jobs
21 you're inquiring about where he was there for
22 one day was Global.
23 I believe the testimony was he had
24 difference of opinion or attitude with the
25 owner.
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2 And then there were a few more one days
3 after that.
4 MR. MACK: Yes.
5 MR. LOMBARDI: Anthony wants to tell
6 you something about that.
7 MR. MACK: Let me listen.
8 A. I think the Cord was only going to be
9 for a week. Instead of using 11 days up -- not
10 even a week, just a few days.
11 I just wanted to get out of there and
12 try to get something better.
13 Q. That's what I have heard before.
14 I want to make certain if the question
15 calls for that as being an accurate answer,
16 please don't shy from telling me about it.
17 A. That is another thing with the list.
18 You can be out two months and then get
19 like a 12 day job and then you're going to be
20 out another two months.
21 It's like really hitting lotto with
22 this list.
23 You can hit a two-year job or you can
24 hit a two-week job.
25 So it's not really fair.
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2 Some guy can get lucky all the time.
3 Q. That's what we're trying to figure out
4 here and in other inquiries, how the system
5 works.
6 And what you're telling me is, I don't
7 want to cut you off, finish what you were going
8 to tell me?
9 A. I don't know how the system works.
10 You get the call from the council. I
11 don't know what goes on over there.
12 To get 11 days and then be out another
13 two, three months, it's not fair to that guy.
14 That's why a lot of guys, they see a job, it's
15 five days or two days, they want to get out of
16 there. They want to get something to get a
17 nice stretch, make up for the time they lost.
18 It's quite a system that doesn't work.
19 Q. Would it be fair -- you're not the
20 first person to tell me that, Mr. Arguelles, I
21 want you to know that there is a difference of
22 opinion between the District Council and myself
23 on the right of a shop steward to walk off a job
24 for no reason or for any reason?
25 That is something that has been
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2 discussed and will continue to be discussed.
3 There is no -- right now it's very
4 clear the policy is it is entirely up to the
5 shop steward to make the decision whether they
6 are going to stay on the job or not.
7 And so I don't want you to think that I
8 am critical or I am being critical of someone
9 taking advantage or working with the system as
10 it currently exists.
11 But that still means you have to tell
12 me about it as you have, that you made a
13 decision that the Cord job was going to be a
14 week job, and rather than use up your 11 days
15 and go back to the bottom of the list, you close
16 to leave the job and hope for something better.
17 Would that be fair?
18 A. Sure.
19 If and when that is true of these other
20 jobs in the future, it may not be true of every
21 job, I have heard things I never have heard
22 before about why they don't take the job, from
23 injury to weather.
24 Just tell me what it is, because
25 there's really no sanction, the only sanction is
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2 for not telling me the truth. There is no
3 sanction for being honest and truthful about the
4 subject as far as I can determine. At least
5 with me.
6 MR. ROTHMAN: May I ask a question?
7 MR. MACK: Absolutely.
8 EXAMINATION BY
9 MR. ROTHMAN:
10 Q. If Mr. Arguelles, you think 11 days is
11 not fair, how many days would be fair?
12 A. It's fair when everybody gets the fair
13 amount. That's what is fair. Everybody
14 should get almost an equal part of the work
15 that's out there. Because there is no one
16 better than the next guy.
17 As far as work performance, some guys
18 are better than others. The company likes
19 that.
20 Of course they want a guy who can
21 perform better than others.
22 In a lot of cases it's not that issue.
23 It's just that the company wants the guy that
24 they want, and not the guy who they can control.
25 And it's not fair for those guys to be
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2 shut out-of-work when the keep able to of doing
3 the work is the same or maybe even better than
4 the company man.
5 And to get 11 days, to wait for a job
6 and get 11 days and have to wait again and then
7 maybe get another 11 days, there is no guarantee
8 you're going to get a good job. And you just
9 keep waiting and waiting and waiting, you can't
10 survive, you can't feed a family on a system
11 like that.
12 You can not survive on that.
13 FURTHER EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. MACK:
15 Q. Is the response to that situation why
16 people try to some extent manipulate the system
17 so the job they'll get will be a longer job?
18 A. Everybody is hoping for at least
19 decent job.
20 Q. I understand everybody is hoping for
21 it.
22 One of the things that we are doing in
23 all of these examinations of shop stewards is
24 whether or not certain methods or matters, maybe
25 manipulation is not the right word, things to do
Laborers for JUSTICE© 1997-2005 All Rights reserved. Not for republication on the internet without permission.
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2 such as leaving the Cord job or having a
3 conversation with a contractor, or finding out
4 when the job is going to be called in, or there
5 are lots of different -- let me put it this way
6 -- lots of different methods that I have heard
7 to increase the likelihood that a particular job
8 will be assigned to that shop steward.
9 I want to make sure I gather them all
10 because I think it's important to the judge to
11 under how it works, what people have had to do
12 in order to increase the likelihood they can
13 feed and take care of their family.
14 I'm not suggesting a corrupt motive, I
15 am suggesting what has the system produced in
16 terms of methods to increase the likelihood of a
17 better job.
18 So I want you to have that in mind so
19 that if we get to a job as we did here with
20 Cord, where you are making a decision about
21 staying on it or doing something because you're
22 worried about getting a better job so you can
23 feed your family, make sure I don't miss those.
24 I think it would help the judge and perhaps the
25 parties.
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2 That's why Mr. Rothman asked you the
3 question. Because if the number of days for a
4 job has been increased -- what, at least once.
5 MR. MACK: What was it originally?
6 MR. ROTHMAN: It was 3, then it went
7 to 5.
8 THE WITNESS: Three days?
9 Q. That was in the way past?
10 What Mr. Rothman asked you a few
11 moments ago is gee, if the days were upped to a
12 higher number than 11 would that be a productive
13 step in making it a fairer system.
14 That was the gist of his question if I
15 got it correctly.
16 MR. ROTHMAN: That's right.
17 Q. All he was trying to elicit is whether
18 or not if the jobs were increased to 15 or 20,
19 would that have a productive effect so that
20 people would stay on jobs because they would get
21 more days?
22 A. Honestly, my opinion, the only way to
23 get a fair system is to everybody get almost
24 equal time.
25 There is always going to be that
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2 jealousy or that enviness that this guy is
3 working all the time and I'm not working at all.
4 So if everybody had a fair shake on the
5 system, you would root out all types every
6 people trying to get over on the list, trying to
7 get work. It would be a fair shake for
8 everybody.
9 Nobody has anything to say.
10 Local 3, everybody gets a fair shake
11 and I tell you, they are united, they're strong,
12 because they are all in it together.
13 With the carpenters, you got the
14 companies, the guys they work all the time.
15 And then the good union guy who is just
16 as capable of doing the work but doesn't have a
17 hook with a company or doesn't know a foreman or
18 doesn't get along with a foreman, he's getting
19 shut out.
20 That's why people try to ride the list.
21 They're just trying to get the work.
22 That is their own way of obtaining it.
23 Q. I appreciate your thoughts and
24 suggestions and there are difficulties in
25 dealing with some of those problems. But
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2 getting your opinion is certainly important to
3 my understanding and the judge's.
4 And may have some impact on the future
5 here. Who is to know?
6 Let's proceed here, there are some
7 uncertainties.
8 Other than your answer on Cord, which
9 you just gave me, is there any other addition or
10 supplementation of your prior answers with
11 respect to Sy-Bee or any of the other jobs where
12 you were there only a short time on.
13 A. Sy-Bee, I don't remember.
14 Q. Cord you do remember, this is going to
15 be a short job and you didn't want to waste days
16 on it?
17 A. Right.
18 Now let me go to the question I think
19 we interrupted.
20 You added a skill foreman layout which
21 is a skill that always intrigues me, on July 18,
22 2000 at about -- almost 9 o'clock in the morning
23 on the 18th.
24 You also changed your phone number to a
25 different number.
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2 You also are referred out on the 18th,
3 7 hours or so later.
4 I'm trying to find out what is
5 happening there.
6 First of all, why, if you remember, did
7 you add the foreman layout skill on that
8 particular day, if you remember.
9 A. I think I just wanted to add all the
10 skills that I could.
11 Q. What is a foreman layout skill, in your
12 mind?
13 A. A foreman layout skill?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Well, layout is laying out -- doing
16 layout, partitions or ceilings or whatever type
17 of layout it is.
18 And foreman is running the men.
19 Q. As far as I can tell, there is at least
20 an inherent -- maybe ambiguity is the right
21 word, tension, because the employer is making
22 the foremen.
23 If there are any dispatches where an
24 employer asks for a foreman to be assigned off a
25 list, it is infrequent. I haven't seen too
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2 many of them, my guess is there are very few.
3 Why is foreman there, why couldn't it
4 just be layout, if you know. You may not know.
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Here are the three things that happened
7 on July 18, 2000 that I'm asking you about.
8 Maybe they are connected in some way, maybe
9 they're not.
10 On July 18th you're back on the
11 out-of-work list.
12 You add the skill foreman layout, which
13 in itself is a skill that I have questions
14 about, I understand what layout is. I
15 understand what foreman is.
16 You also change your telephone number.
17 Let me ask you about that: Had you
18 moved or did you get a new phone?
19 A. That's my home number.
20 Q. Which one?
21 A. 798.
22 3641?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You're changing it to what?
25 A. I think maybe that's the cell phone.
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2 Q. That at least suggests to me that you
3 might have in mind the need to be able to be
4 reached by a phone that you're carrying with
5 you, that at least raises that possibilities?
6 A. Right. I think when the list came out
7 you had to wait by your home phone.
8 Now, I think with, the cell phone you
9 were able to at least be out, if you had to run
10 to the store, you didn't miss the job.
11 Q. So I guess what I'm saying to you:
12 Does the fact that you changed to your cell
13 phone and you put foreman layout, does that in
14 any way help you remember what is happening that
15 day or what's going on, why you added foreman
16 layout?
17 Did somebody suggest to you: Hey, put
18 foreman layout, it's a good idea?
19 Or is this just something that came to
20 your own mind and, if so what prompted it, if
21 you remember.
22 A. Honestly I don't remember.
23 Q. You'll see that also on the 18th at
24 approximately 3:08, you are referred to a job at
25 superior acoustics with a job start the next
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2 day?
3 The job is 521 Fifth Avenue.
4 Yet, I see no benefits of any kinds.
5 A. Right.
6 What happened there?
7 A. Me and my brother --
8 Steven?
9 A. Steve.
10 Steve?
11 A. Right. We got called within 15
12 minutes of each other.
13 And he ended up going to my job, I
14 ended up going to his job. He got called for
15 Woodworks. We ended up switching. He wanted
16 to do ceilings, I wanted to do drywall.
17 That explains why we haven't been able
18 to figure this out.
19 So the switching, you brothers simply
20 said you go to my job, I'll go to yours.
21 A. Exactly.
22 Q. Was that a family decision?
23 A. Family decision.
24 I shaped the job, I was already there.
25 Q. You should tell me that.
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2 A. I didn't --
3 Q. I was going to ask you, you knew it was
4 coming, selection 164, it shows you doing
5 Woodworks, 56 hours there.
6 I was going to get to the point of
7 asking you what was that job and why are you
8 getting benefits there.
9 That is the question.
10 A. I just happened to shape the job, got
11 on. And then we just -- he got called for it.
12 MR. LOMBARDI: The superior job.
13 THE WITNESS: The superior job.
14 Q. Let me get it right.
15 Identify the Woodworks job for me,
16 where is it.
17 A. That was on 55th off Second.
18 Q. If I pull Steven's work records and job
19 referral, I will see --
20 A. Exactly.
21 Q. That's why we don't have the records
22 here. That's why we go through this process,
23 so we get answers to questions we can't figure
24 out from the records themselves.
25 Tell me this: This job, where was it
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2 again, on 5th Avenue?
3 A. 55th and Second.
4 What was the nature of the job?
5 MR. LOMBARDI: That's the Woodworks
6 job.
7 A. As far as the work itself?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. It was an apartment building,
10 sheetrock, framing, protection.
11 Q. What was the name of the contractor?
12 A. Woodworks.
13 Q. Had you ever worked for them before?
14 A. No.
15 Q. How did you come to shape that job?
16 A. I don't know if they were just starting
17 a big job there. I don't know who told me.
18 Q. Was it a business agent who told you it
19 was a prospect worth looking at?
20 A. I would say I don't remember exactly
21 who it was.
22 MR. LOMBARDI: Which job did you
23 shape?
24 THE WITNESS: The Woodworks.
25 Q. That is the source of the 56 hours
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2 here, right?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. Were you always on the sheets at this
5 Woodworks job or were there times when you were
6 working off the sheets?
7 Do you understand my question?
8 A. The job was just starting.
9 Q. Did you shape it when it just started?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. You were there the first day or the
12 first week?
13 A. I just started. I guess maybe the
14 first few days. I don't know -- I think there
15 was two or three guys there, two guys there.
16 It was just starting. It was just starting to
17 go up.
18 Q. And who was the shop steward there?
19 A. There was none. It just started.
20 Q. When did the shop steward arrive?
21 A. I think I got there on a Thursday.
22 And then the call came in, like on a Monday or
23 Tuesday.
24 Something like that. It was only two
25 or three days.
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2 Q. But the call came in to Steven?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. To be assigned as the shop steward for
5 that job?
6 A. Right.
7 MR. LOMBARDI: Woodworks.
8 A. Woodworks.
9 So we have to pull the dispatches for
10 Steven to take a look at that?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. You were already on that job?
13 A. I was on the job.
14 Q. How long had you been on the job before
15 Steven --
16 A. Two or three days.
17 So it was reported almost immediately?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. And the dispatch was to your brother to
20 be sent to that job as the shop steward?
21 A. Right.
22 And you correct me when I'm wrong here,
23 you and Steven communicated, correct?
24 A. We were together at the time.
25 Q. Was he on the job as well?
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2 A. No.
3 Q. So when you say you're together, what?
4 A. We were together at the time. We got
5 called within 10 minutes of each other.
6 Q. You were called for Superior, he was
7 called for Woodworks?
8 A. Right. Since I was already on the job
9 with Woodworks, I said you go to Superior, I'll
10 stay at Woodworks.
11 Q. The fact you were on, you were also on
12 the out-of-work list, so technically you're
13 riding the list again?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What did Steven do, did he go to the
16 Superior job?
17 A. He went to Superior.
18 Q. What happened, did he stay there?
19 A. Yes.
20 How long was he on that job, if you
21 know?
22 A. I think it was only, like, maybe a
23 couple of months. A month or two months. It
24 wasn't really a big, big job.
25 Q. You were on the Woodworks job for how
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2 long?
3 A. Like a year.
4 Q. Did he get a fair shake on that deal?
5 A. No. That's what brothers are for.
6 Brothers will do that for each other.
7 Q. I guess what I'm asking is, that seemed
8 to be a rather one-sided bargain.
9 Did he ask that you give him -- let me
10 start again.
11 Did you ever reverse this favor? In
12 other words, do the identity shift on another
13 occasion.
14 A. Never. It just happened to be pot
15 luck where he got called for a job I was on.
16 It just happened to be a crazy
17 coincidence. We just rode it out, that's it.
18 Q. The shop steward reports for the
19 Woodworks job bear what name as the shop
20 steward, yours or Steven's?
21 A. Mine.
22 Q. Did you ever discuss with the business
23 agent or anyone from the District Council --
24 A. No.
25 They never noticed Steven's name was no
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2 longer the shop steward for the Woodworks job?
3 Did it ever come to anybody's attention?
4 A. Yes, I had a hearing on it.
5 Don't assume I know that.
6 Tell me what happened.
7 A. I had a hearing on that, why I was sent
8 for Superior and I was Woodworks.
9 Q. Whose hearing?
10 A. District Council.
11 Q. Were you charged on the basis of
12 something?
13 A. It was dismissed.
14 Q. Now, there is something I also mention
15 to Mr. Rothman and he'll know why I mention
16 this.
17 One of the things that is very
18 important to me, is, until you told me this,
19 although I had some suspicions about what went
20 on, unless the records of the hearing or
21 dismissal or what happened were produced to me,
22 I never would know it. That's what it boils
23 down to.
24 I might have saved some time day,
25 perhaps not a lot, had I known what went on.
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2 This idea of when Anthony Arguelles's
3 case comes, if there is a case, I would like to
4 know as much as I can about you to save time,
5 and also make sure my questions are better.
6 In this case, you were charged with
7 what penalty, or charged with what charge, maybe
8 that's the way to say it.
9 MR. ROTHMAN: Infraction.
10 Infraction?
11 MR. MACK: Thank you.
12 A. Being on a job I'm not supposed to be
13 on as a shop steward.
14 Q. When were you charged, approximately
15 what year?
16 A. It was like 'a year later.
17 How was it discovered, how did the
18 topic come up?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. You signed every shop steward report,
21 Anthony?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And Steven signed every shop steward
24 report Steven?
25 A. Yes.
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2 Q. Was he charged for any infraction?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Why were you charged and he not
5 charged?
6 A. I don't know why. I don't know why it
7 came up on me.
8 Q. What was your defense, if you remember?
9 A. Well --
10 Let me ask the question differently so
11 it doesn't sound like a legal question.
12 You got charged, what happened after
13 that?
14 A. I went for the hearing.
15 Q. What happened at the hearing?
16 A. I told him -- actually I told him --
17 Q. Who are you talking to?
18 A. The panel of -- I think it was business
19 agents. I don't know who else was there.
20 Q. Do you remember any of the people on
21 the panel?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Were any business agents from 157?
24 A. I don't think they're allowed to sit in
25 on their own member.
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2 Q. Any business agent you remember by name
3 or position?
4 A. No.
5 What did you tell them?
6 A. I told them that when we got the call I
7 got the call for the works. It was like 10
8 minutes of each other, districts council messed
9 up. But they didn't mess up. It wasn't true.
10 I didn't want to jam up my brother.
11 MR. LOMBARDI: But they believe that
12 about themselves.
13 MR. MACK: That is a little humor for
14 us, we don't need to distract ourselves from our
15 progress here.
16 A. He didn't want to go along with it.
17 Since I was on the job, why create the mix up.
18 Q. Was there any other thing that you told
19 them in your defense or to justify the situation
20 other than the argument or the statement that
21 the District Council had made calls to the wrong
22 brother?
23 A. No.
24 As a result of that, the charge was
25 dismissed?
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2 A. Dismissed.
3 Q. Did any business agent from 157 guide
4 you or assist you in your defense or make any
5 suggestions as to how to deal with it?
6 A. Not at all.
7 Q. You were on that job, it was obviously
8 a good job, right?
9 A. Right.
10 Lasted until -- it certainly lasted
11 for?
12 A. That's fair to say.
13 Q. You were acting as shop steward all the
14 time during that job?
15 A. All the time.
16 Q. Your shop steward reports -- did they
17 accurately record the hours of all carpenters on
18 that job site?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. There was no situation that you can
21 recall in which there was any type of cash or
22 violation of the collective bargaining agreement
23 with respect to that job?
24 A. No.
25 Q. One of the topics that will come up,
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2 the reason I mention it is I want you to think
3 about it, it is an allegation that has been made
4 about your service, it's not all that
5 inconsistent with what you just told me in terms
6 of your statement.
7 It's something that we will cover when
8 we get to your -- I want to cover the topic of
9 your relationship with Prince.
10 There have been allegations that you
11 have been willing to assist them in terms of
12 hours or processes or procedures or with
13 respects to particular people, because of your
14 relationship with them.
15 Since you have made such a point
16 tonight of saying to me that one of the problems
17 is that shop stewards aren't able to stand up to
18 the company or other carpenters aren't, I want
19 to make certain that you hold yourself to that
20 standard when we get to Prince as to whether
21 there have been situations where you felt that
22 your integrity or your authority as a union shop
23 steward has been under mind or compromised or in
24 some way affected because of your relationship
25 at Prince.
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2 Keep that in mind, those questions are
3 going to come.
4 To continue along in 2001, I notice
5 here that there are some hours from time to
6 time, for Duncan Interiors, 7 hours 2 days
7 there.
8 A. Right.
9 Q. One in March, one in April, what's that
10 about?
11 A. I worked a couple of stat days, my
12 brother is a shop steward for Duncan, he needed
13 an extra guy on Saturday.
14 Q. Do you know the job site?
15 A. I think it was the Con Ed building on
16 14th Street.
17 Q. What are you actually doing there, if
18 you remember?
19 A. Ceilings.
20 Q. I know that is something you have
21 knowledge about.
22 Are those hours accurate or did you
23 work more than a day for Duncan Interiors?
24 A. That's accurate.
25 Q. Was there a shop steward, was your
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2 brother the shop steward?
3 A. He was the shop steward.
4 Was there a shop steward report for the
5 days which you were there, the Saturdays you
6 were there?
7 A. Should have been.
8 It's your brother one way or the other,
9 we may look to find out, but if you know, were
10 you accurately recorded?
11 My suspicion is you were, I just want
12 to make certain if you weren't or you have some
13 concern on that subject, I'm asking you as far
14 as you know were you properly accounted for by
15 the shop steward on the Saturdays you worked for
16 Duncan Interiors?
17 A. I'm not sure, like I don't fill out his
18 report. But --
19 Q. He probably knows your card number and
20 can recognize you when you're on the job site?
21 A. Sure.
22 Q. I'm not going to ask you whether he
23 checked your card or not.
24 But as far as you know, those two
25 Saturdays that you worked, you were properly
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2 accounted for by Steven?
3 A. Right.
4 Let's continue.
5 You're added to the out-of-work list on
6 June 8, 2001.
7 It appears to me you are working at
8 that time at Woodworks?
9 It's 2:21 p.m., June 8, 2001. You're
10 added to the list, the 157 list.
11 Given what you have told me about your
12 job for Woodworks, I have to make the conclusion
13 or draw the conclusion that you were working
14 during that time period.
15 Unless you can explain to me what's
16 happening there.
17 A. I probably put my name on the list
18 while I was working.
19 Q. Let me ask you, though, here it is,
20 it's June, you still work for Woodworks, it
21 appears to me, into August 2001.
22 You have 133 hours in August, if I'm
23 reading that correctly -- no, I am not.
24 In August you have 98 hours at
25 Woodworks, a total of 133 hours in the month of
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2 August.
3 Why are you putting yourself on the
4 list so early. Why in June when you still have
5 two more months to go.
6 We are going to run into a referral.
7 You have a job, maybe you're trying to
8 take advantage of the. fact they don't know you
9 at Woodworks, I don't know what your thinking
10 is.
11 We get to a referral on June 26th.
12 You're back on the list on June 27th,
13 all series of referrals, skill deletes, unable
14 to reach, and all the time you're working here
15 at Woodworks, I'm trying to figure out what is
16 going on.
17 Take your time and run through it then
18 try to explain to it me if you would.
19 (Pause).
20 I want to try to make this easier for
21 you, you report a shape to complete construction
22 on July 12th, no hours are reported for you.
23 I don't know what is going on here,
24 Anthony, at the time.
25 You got to look at all of these.
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2 You're obviously working for Woodworks,
3 you're getting substantial hours. You are on
4 the list frequently during that time period.
5 You're adding skills, are you looking
6 for a particular job? Is there some strategy
7 here that you have in mind? I just don't
8 understand what is happening here. .
9 Is it something involving Steven in a
10 sense that you think something is going to
11 happen with him or there won't being things
12 accurately reported to you.
13 I don't know. Those are the facts and
14 I'm looking for your explanation.
15 A. Benefits are being paid by Woodworks.
16 Q. Yes. If you take a look at the
17 entries you'll see benefits for Woodworks all
18 the way through August. You have 98 hours in
19 August.
20 You have 162 hours in July.
21 (Pause).
22 Let me make certain out of fairness to
23 you, I reiterate what I said at the very
24 beginning of our time together in December, and
25 that is if you feel that for instance the
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2 company involved is misreporting the time or is
3 delaying --
4 A. That is what it could be on a lot of
5 these occasions.
6 Q. It could be.
7 Here is what I said to you at the time,
8 I want to reiterate tonight.The only way that
9 I can determine whether that is true or not is
10 to serve a subpoena and require the company to
11 produce all the records. It's an exercise
12 which I am willing to do.
13 If you feel legitimately here that this
14 is Woodworks mistake and not your mistake.
15 But I wouldn't encourage you to do it
16 just because it's yet a way to postpone what you
17 know to be ultimately true that you were working
18 and riding the list.Because the company is
19 not going to be happy about it and I am not
20 going to be -- I will say you produced the
21 records,I don't want any BS here.
22 I wouldn't do it for the fun to see if
23 I could get the records. If you have a
24 legitimate reason to believe the mistake is the
25 company's in reporting list, and if that is
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2 where you are, I am willing to do what is
3 necessary to obtain the evidence.
4 I wouldn't do it just to postpone what
5 is an inevitable conclusion.
6 A. I'm not sure.
7 Q. Think about it, talk it over, see if
8 you have records at home, and I ask if you feel
9 that, I really believe, this is Woodwork's late
10 reporting of benefits, I was really out-of-work
11 when I added myself to the list back in June
12 2001 and added it again on all these occasions
13 here, August 17th, this is not me riding the
14 list, this is Woodworks mistake in reporting
15 late.
16 If Mr. Lombardi makes that request to
17 me I will subpoena Woodworks for their
18 employment records.
19 Let's leave it that way.
20 It's up to you, take a look at your
21 records, as you know already, you may have pay
22 records at home that answer this question.
23 A. I can check, that.
24 Q. You should check it. We will do our
25 homework as well.
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2 I want to put the burden on you that if
3 you have a legitimate defense or other side that
4 need be considered by me and the judge, I want
5 to make sure that I obtain those records to
6 resolve the issue.
7 I don't want to do it as an exercise to
8 see whether or not Woodworks is responsive
9 because someone will respond eventually as long
10 as they're around.
11 I don't want to do it unless you feel
12 legitimately here this is their mistake rather
13 than yours, fair enough?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Let's continue here.
16 What is that story on Complete
17 Construction?
18 You shape Complete Construction, 630
19 Third Avenue on July 12, 2001 is the report at
20 least.
21 I'm moving beyond whether you were
22 actually working at the time.
23 I'm asking what is the story on the
24 Complete job because I don't see any hours
25 reported for you by them.
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2 What happened there?
3 A. I don't think I worked there.
4 Q. What is the story on this shape report?
5 Did you report a shape to Complete or is that
6 somebody else reporting in your name, if you
7 know?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Was it possible that Steven would have
10 -- was there any brotherly employment
11 interaction here or not?
12 A. No.
13 I could have shaped, maybe I didn't
14 work. I don't know.
15 Q. It seems to me this is not an
16 unanswerable question.
17 The list says you were referred on the
18 12th.
19 My guess is that that is just a
20 reflection of your shape which you have reported
21 your shape.
22 You're dropped from the out-of-work
23 list on the 11 day rule on July 26th, and you
24 add yourself or you are added back on August
25 17th.
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2 I don't see any benefits reported for
3 you other than Woodworks where you could very
4 well have been working for that time period
5 based upon the benefit fund reports.
6 Given those variables I'm just asking
7 for your explanation if you have one.
8 Do you understand why I'm confused
9 here?
10 A. Yes.
11 I think I went from Woodworks to
12 National.
13 Q. What, if anything, is this Complete
14 shape here that I am looking at as part of AA 7,
15 the 630 Third Avenue, shape, A. Arguelles?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. What is the significance of that
18 document?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Could Steven have done something
21 without telling you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. That is a mystery to you as well as to
24 me?
25 A. Yes.
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2 Q. Now you're going back on the list on
3 August 17, 2001?
4 Perfectly consistent with that going
5 back on the list are the hours reported in
6 August for you in Woodworks. It's a little bit
7 over two weeks.
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Unless you tell me that you put
10 yourself on the list before you left work at
11 Woodworks, and you were still working --
12 A. I might have put my name on early at
13 Woodworks.
14 Q. It couldn't be too many more days,
15 right?
16 You're only working -- could be between
17 two and three works onto the reports at
18 Woodworks. Then you go on on the 17th.
19 I'm asking you if you have a
20 recollection whether or not you were working
21 when you put yourself on the list or not.
22 MR. LOMBARDI: On the 17th of August.
23 Q. On the 17th, 2001?
24 MR. LOMBARDI: On that occasion when
25 you put yourself on the list.
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2 A. I think that job ended around July.
3 Q. You think it ended around July?
4 A. July or maybe -- yes, probably around
5 July, the Woodworks job.
6 MR. LOMBARDI: You think there might
7 have been late reporting of benefits.
8 Because, see here --
9 A. At the time, let me tell you what is
10 going on in my life at the time. I was
11 diagnosed with cancer.
12 Q. Sorry.
13 A. There were a lot of things going on.
14 I can't recall a lot of issues. September 11th
15 I lost 2 family members. At that time I was
16 grief stricken for my family.
17 Q. I'm sorry for all of that.
18 A. So there were rough times with me. Up
19 until now I had a child born ill, up until the
20 Prince job. My wife had serious problems about
21 that.
22 The last few years for me and my family
23 have been pretty rough.
24 Q. I'm sorry to hear all of that.
25 I would say this, I want to reiterate,
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2 I am not sitting in judgment of the situation.
3 As you know, tonight I have had a dear
4 friend with a very serious disease. Those are
5 things that need to be taken into account for
6 everybody.
7 And I certainly will try to do that.
8 With respect to this Woodworks job,
9 everything here may be exactly correct.
10 You may have -- I don't understand what
11 happened to the Complete job, you are not out of
12 the woods yet, but basically you may have had
13 some pretty difficult times to go through, and
14 those are important things to understand.
15 At the same time I want to make certain
16 I have it accurate.
17 Right now it appears you were working
18 for Woodworks up until August, and all we are at
19 the moment is you're going to check, if you
20 think after that checking records and what have
21 you legitimately Woodworks might just simply be
22 reporting late I will subpoena Woodworks and
23 look for their payroll records.
24 There still remains the question of
25 what happened if you stopped in July, were you
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2 working anywhere else or not?
3 Right now it pretty much fits based
4 upon the benefits here, the scenario that I have
5 described.
6 I am going to leave it to you. I
7 don't want you to think I'm insensitive to your
8 personal and other family issues and things of
9 that nature.
10 What the impact of your being on the
11 list is and what was on, those are things for
12 the District Council to assess. I'm sure they
13 will listen to whatever the issues are once the
14 facts are clear.
15 Fair enough?
16 A. Fair enough.
17 Q. Do you have a recollection here about
18 this National Acoustics dispatch? Did you have
19 in mind when you put yourself on the out-of-work
20 list that the National Acoustics job was a job
21 that you wanted or existed and was something you
22 would have looked for?
23 Was this simply a normal dispatch where
24 the luck of the draw was it came up and went to
25 you?
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2 A. Correct.
3 Q. The latter?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. I'm reading that to be you were
6 legitimately out-of-work on August 17, 2001.
7 You put yourself on the list?
8 Let's take a look at the dispatch, part
9 of AA 7.
10 It looks like Danny DeMirada was a
11 business agent who called it. This was a J.
12 Crew store at 347 Madison Avenue.
13 Had you had any conversation with Danny
14 about this job or this job being available or
15 coming up?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you recall the job and how long you
18 were on it?
19 A. I recall the job because that's when
20 September 11th occurred.
21 It wasn't that long, maybe a month.
22 Q. You served as a shop steward on the
23 job?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. National Acoustics is a company that
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2 has come to my attention more than once because
3 of allegations and information they may not have
4 always observed the collective bargaining
5 agreement in connection to carpenters.
6 In the time you were there and served
7 as shop steward, were there any inaccuracies or
8 potential wrongdoing that you saw, observed or
9 participated in?
10 A. None at all. To be frank with you,
11 National Acoustics, as far as I can recall, has
12 always been an upstanding company.
13 Q. That is your experience with them and
14 that is important to me.
15 Let me add this one thing as well:
16 There are two categories dealing with
17 inaccuracies.
18 One did it occur, and did you
19 participate in it, or did you observe it.
20 That is sort of category one, that is
21 my first area of questioning.
22 The second area of questioning is:
23 Even though it didn't occur, were you invited or
24 encouraged or did someone suggest or ask you to
25 commit wrongdoing.
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2 That is also of significance to me as
3 well.
4 So expanding my question: When you
5 were at this National Acoustics job did you feel
6 or were you ever asked to deviate from union
7 rules or your duties as a union shop steward?
8 A. Never.
9 Can I take a break?
10 Q. Absolutely. It's my view you would
11 rather get this over with tonight then go home
12 and come back another day.
13 A. Yes.
14 (Recess).
15 Q. Now, when we are getting more in the
16 present here, I'm also wanting you to have in
17 mind some questions where you as shop steward
18 are being asked, if it happens, and I have some
19 evidence that it may have happened in your case,
20 and other cases, where you're asked to put on a
21 carpenter as a result of a request or a
22 direction of the business agent, of a business
23 agent?
24 MR. LOMBARDI: To put him on a shop
25 steward report.
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2 Q. To put you on a job.
3 The scenario would be in some way you
4 are requested or encouraged by a business agent
5 or more than one business agent to arrange,
6 encourage, facilitate the placement on a job
7 site of a particular carpenter.
8 So I want you to keep in mind, because
9 I am going to start asking you now as we move on
10 did that ever happen on your job site.
11 I am certainly going to be asking that
12 with respect to your Prince jobs, whether or not
13 you got a call, it doesn't have to be a call, a
14 request from a District Council business agent
15 to see that a certain carpenter or carpenters go
16 on your sheet. When I say go on your sheet, get
17 put on by the contractor on the job site.
18 Do you understand that general topic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I would encourage you since there are
21 some uncertainties as to whether it was proper,
22 when it was proper, when it wasn't proper, that
23 is what a business agent should do, answer the
24 question truthfully and accurately, to the best
25 of your knowledge.
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2 You went on the out-of-work list on
3 September 20, 2001. Your next dispatch is on
4 October 10.
5 I have to ask you the question, of
6 course, I'm sure you can see that, you have 109
7 hours of National Acoustics, you go back on the
8 OWL on September 20th, the question is: Were
9 you working when you went back on the
10 out-of-work list?
11 MR. LOMBARDI: You are talking about
12 September '01?
13 MR. MACK: Yes.
14 A. I don't remember.
15 Q. You can certainly see why I asked you
16 the question.
17 You say you don't remember. I just
18 want to make certain that you have thought about
19 it.
20 If you have a memory gee, the job
21 ended, the day it ended, the next day I put
22 myself on.
23 Or is it a situation where you had some
24 other -- you wanted to get on the out-of-work
25 list and you still had a number of days left at
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2 National Acoustics, if you remember which it
3 was.
4 MR. LOMBARDI: He's back on on
5 September 20th.
6 MR. MACK: He's back on on September
7 20th. He's got 109 hours.
8 MR. LOMBARDI: That is not a full
9 month.
10 MR. MACK: I'm not saying it couldn't
11 be consistent with the job ending.
12 Q. That's why I gave you two alternatives,
13 the job ended and you put yourself on. Or the
14 job still had sometime to run and you put
15 yourself on. I don't know which it is. I'm
16 asking for your help.
17 MR. LOMBARDI: If you recall.
18 A. I don't recall.
19 Q. Do you have pay records from National
20 Acoustics that would help us answer that
21 question that are available to you that you
22 haven't produced to me?
23 A. I might.
24 Q. Please check, and the record will
25 reflect that I want you to check and see. So
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2 if your answer to that question can be more
3 precise, I can put it on the record.
4 Especially from my point of view, if you have
5 the records or they're available to you or could
6 be available to you, you have the obligation to
7 review them and make sure your answer here to
8 me, is as accurate as you can make it.
9 If on the other hand you have no way of
10 determining it yourself and you really just
11 don't remember, and you think there is at least
12 some likelihood that, for instance, this report
13 here would reflect that in fact, the job ended
14 prior to September 20th, then I'll subpoena them
15 and get the records.
16 So we can resolve it.
17 I'm going to try to move, believe it or
18 not here, reasonably quickly.
19 I notice you're referred to Curtis
20 Partition on October 10.
21 Was that a normal dispatch, was there
22 any -- did you have in mind any strategy by you
23 to try to obtain that job at 60th and Third?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Had you had any conversations with the
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2 business agent at 157 to help you get that job?
3 A. No.
4 Q. That job, you will notice you're back
5 on the out-of-work list the next day.
6 What happened?
7 A. That was a small ittle job.
8 I remember that.
9 That was a little candy store, I think
10 it was.
11 Q. Was that a job,though,that was only a
12 one day job or was it a job that you didn't want
13 to take?
14 A. I think it was,if I remember,I think
15 it was an off and on type job.
16 I think I caught the last couple of
17 days.
18 Q. 60th Street and Third Avenue,Dylan
19 Candy Store. I'm reading from that portion of
20 AA 7 that refers to this dispatch?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. You are only there one day.
23 I'm trying to figure out,was that
24 because the job only lasted one day?
25 It could be because every shop steward
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2 who went to that job --
3 A. That job was almost over.
4 Q. Had there been a shop steward on that
5 job?
6 A. Probably previous, because the job --
7 it looked like it was all done already.
8 Q. How many day job would you estimate it
9 was all told?
10 A. I don't know. It was a candy store.
11 Upstairs was done already. And they were doing
12 a little bit of work downstairs. And the store
13 was opening in, like, a day or two.
14 Q. So my question is if you can estimate,
15 based upon your experience as a carpenter, that
16 day from start to finish -- excuse me, that job
17 from start to finish would have been
18 approximately how many days, if you can
19 estimate?
20 A. I'm trying to remember the upstairs.
21 Maybe a month.
22 Q. A month?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So I guess my question is, because
25 there is part of the very problem you and I have
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2 talked about already tonight, why are you going
3 to a job that only has one day or very short
4 days left for shop stewards there, and you may
5 not know the answer.
6 Was there a shop steward on that job?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. There certainly was no shop steward
9 there when you arrived?
10 A. Who?
11 Q. You stayed there one day because the
12 job was over in one day, is that what you're
13 telling me or it had such a short time to run
14 you didn't want to stay?
15 A. As far as I can remember I think it was
16 over. I think the store was opening the next
17 day. They were finishing little touches here
18 and there.
19 Q. It was the last day of the job?
20 A. Pretty much.
21 Q. That is the best of your recollection?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. You're back on the out-of-work list.
24 You get 14 hours from them?
25 May I assume that you're not working
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2 there -- withdrawn. We'll get to the next
3 question in a moment.
4 On the 15th you're dispatched with a
5 foreman layout skill to Mt. Sinai.
6 Do you remember having that job in mind
7 before you were dispatched to it?
8 The reason I ask the question, you know
9 my purpose here: Did you have a job in mind,
10 would that have been a factor why you didn't
11 stay at the Curtis Partition job?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Was it the reason you put the foreman
14 layout skill on?
15 In other words, was there a job you had
16 in mind before you were dispatched to it or had
17 you discussed it with anybody prior to the
18 dispatch on October 15th?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Was there a need for the foreman layout
21 skill on this job at Mt. Sinai? Did you do any
22 lay out there?
23 A. I laid out some ceilings, yes.
24 You did lay out some ceilings?
25 A. Yes.
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2 Was there any protection on the job?
3 A. Protection -- protection --
4 MR. LOMBARDI: When was the foreman
5 layout skill added?
6 MR. ROTHMAN: Not with respect to this
7 job.
8 MR. MACK: Not directly. It was
9 added --
10 MR. LOMBARDI: July 18, 2000.
11 MR. MACK: True. I'm not saying it
12 was added immediately prior. I'm trying to
13 find out why the skill is there in the first
14 place.
15 I'm not trying to mislead your client.
16 MR. LOMBARDI: I know.
17 MR. MACK: Fine.
18 Q. So you recall my question, I'm just
19 trying to -- maybe you can describe the nature
20 of this job at Mt. Sinai?
21 A. We were doing a cancer ward.
22 Q. Cancer ward?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. Was there a need for protection on that
25 job, was there any protection?
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2 A. We had to protect -- it was actually
3 part of the hospital, we had to do protection to
4 separate us from the hospital part.
5 Q. Are all the skills there that are laid
6 out in that dispatch, are those skills ones that
7 were appropriate to that job site in your
8 opinion?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, we have a question -- or I have a
11 question here, that job was a good job, it went
12 on for sometime?
13 A. It was a small job. But hospital jobs
14 are very slow. They move at a snail's pace.
15 Q. I want to ask the question again
16 because it's a very important question.
17 Did you have any notice or information
18 about this RonsCo Mt. Sinai job before you
19 received the referral to it?
20 A. No.
21 Q. So this was just luck of the draw that
22 you got a job of this length, is that correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Would is the source of the 14 hours
25 from Gallagher, reported for the month of
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2 November?
3 A. That was -- my brother was a steward on
4 that job. And they needed -- they had like a
5 weekend where there was a big push and he got me
6 on for a weekend.
7 Q. The weekend in November?
8 A. I think it was Thanksgiving weekend,
9 Thanksgiving. Four days off, you work Thursday
10 and Friday, I think -- Friday and Saturday.
11 Q. Friday and a Saturday, Thanksgiving
12 2001?
13 A. Right. Or Saturday and Sunday.
14 It was during that holiday weekend.
15 Q. Were you on a shop steward report and
16 was your brother the shop steward on that job?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. On the RonsCo job, you were the shop
19 steward for that time period as dispatched?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Let me ask you my normal questions
22 here.
23 On that job were your shop steward
24 reports accurate in every respect? When I say
25 accurate in every respect, we went through this
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2 back in December, was every carpenter on the job
3 site recorded on your shop steward report.
4 Were the hours for all the carpenters
5 that are on the site accurately recorded, and
6 were there any cash payments or payments out
7 side of the union benefit or wage scale that
8 were paid on that job to your knowledge and
9 belief?
10 MR. LOMBARDI: That is the Mt. Sinai
11 job.
12 Q. That is the Mt. Sinai RonsCo job which
13 is a good job, runs for a good period of time.
14 It runs from October 2001, and I still
15 see hours reported there through April 2002.
16 Do you understand my question?
17 A. Right.
18 MR. LOMBARDI: He's asking you about
19 the shop steward reports.
20 Q. It's a broad question, any wrongful
21 interactions there are calling for that
22 question.
23 MR. LOMBARDI: We'll talk for a
24 minute.
25 MR. MACK: Sure.
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2 (Witness and counsel confer.)
3 MR. MACK: Have you gentlemen had
4 enough opportunity to talk to each other.
5 MR. LOMBARDI: Yes.
6 The answer to my question is --
7 MR. LOMBARDI: He has two things to
8 tell you about with respect to the Mt. Sinai
9 job.
10 He'll listen.
11 A. The first one is, the foreman, he was
12 going through a divorce.
13 Do you have the foreman's name for us?
14 A. Chuck.
15 Q. Last name, do you know?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Chuck?
18 A. Yes.
19 He is going through a divorce, and he
20 had a payout, he wanted me to leave him off the
21 sheet a couple of days each week. And I did.
22 Q. Thank you for telling us.
23 Was he being paid cash for the days he
24 was off the sheet, if you know?
25 A. I don't know what he was getting paid.
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2 We never discussed that.
3 Q. Was he the gentleman who signed your
4 shop steward reports?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you receive any type of
7 consideration or reward or incentive for
8 permitting him to be off the sheets for two
9 days?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Anything else about this transaction
12 with Chuck, the foreman, beyond, as far as your
13 knowledge goes, just keeping him off the sheets
14 for two days a week, anything beyond that as
15 part of your understanding with him?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So to summarize, he asked you and you
18 agreed to not report him for two days, the
19 foreman, each week?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. And basically as far as whether or
22 knots he was paid for those days or not, you do
23 not know the answer to that question?
24 A. I do not know.
25 Q. And you, yourself, received no reward
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2 or -- let me add to this, because it may be of
3 consequence later.
4 A reward can be cash, but a reward can
5 also be, don't show up for a couple of days a
6 week, take a trip with the family to Atlantic
7 City, don't show up on a day and we'll pay you
8 anyway.
9 Reward takes many forms. And it may
10 not simply be money. It could be a break, a
11 longer vacation, an opportunity to sleep late
12 three days a week.
13 I want to make sure you understand that
14 the question is that broad.
15 When I asked you did you receive any
16 reward for permitting Chuck not to report two
17 days a week, I want to make sure you consider
18 not only being paid for it but also given
19 special privileges or benefits.
20 Does that change your answer?
21 A. No.
22 Q. The second thing you want to tell me is
23 what?
24 A. My brother also worked on that job with
25 me. And I'm not sure if I left him off the
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2 sheet.
3 Q. I would like you to be thinking about
4 that.
5 What that means to me --
6 A. He got paid what he was supposed to get
7 paid. It was nothing like --
8 That raises a question.
9 I want to make sure I understand what
10 you're telling me.
11 He got paid. Does that mean he was
12 paid full wage and benefit?
13 A. Full wage and benefits.
14 I think he wanted to get on the list
15 and I didn't want to jam him up as far as the
16 out-of-work list.
17 Q. The strategy here, if I understand it
18 correctly, although sometimes I wonder about
19 this strategy, because if the benefits are
20 reported for Steven for the time period, and
21 he's also on the list in the time period, why
22 isn't that a risk?
23 A. It is a risk.
24 Like I said, Mr. Mack, Walter, that's
25 what guys have to do to try to survive on this
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2 list. It's not a fair system.
3 Just to get work, you take your
4 chances.
5 Q. What I'm trying to compute is this:
6 If your brother Steven is being paid proper
7 union page and benefits reported, there is at
8 least the risk, I would like to think there is a
9 risk, maybe there isn't, that some day somebody
10 going through shop steward reports and audits
11 for the company or looking at his records will
12 say.
13 Hey, you're on the out-of-work list,
14 and you're receiving benefits during the period
15 that you're listed there, why isn't that a
16 discouragement for doing what you just
17 described.
18 A. When you have to feed your family -- a
19 system is set up where it's so hard to get work.
20 You just take your chances. You just take your
21 chances.
22 Q. The reason I ask this question, and I
23 have asked it before on a number of occasions,
24 the risk is less if your brother gets paid off
25 the books.
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2 So there's no benefit reporting, and
3 therefore there's no likelihood of having a
4 sharp eyed auditor, if there is one at the
5 District Council, maybe there is, to pick up the
6 fact that he is on the list at the same time
7 he's receiving benefits, which is certainly
8 something we are going through with you today.
9 But you're telling me based upon your
10 recollection that he was paid proper wage and
11 benefit an benefits reported?
12 A. Of course.
13 Q. Part of that is that it enhances the
14 risk that some day he will be found as riding
15 the list, you agree?
16 A. Sure..
17 Q. Was he caught riding the list on that
18 topic?
19 A. No.
20 Q. As far as you know he wasn't?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. When we first started I asked you
23 whether you the same arduous process we are
24 going through tonight had ever happened to you
25 prior to December 15th. Your answer to that
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2 was no.
3 Is that also true, still true?
4 A. Still true.
5 Q. In other words, I want to make sure
6 between December 15th and today no one has sat
7 down with you and gone through what we are doing
8 tonight in terms of comparing your work referral
9 history and your benefit fund, is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Do you know whether Steven has ever
12 had, shall we say, an analysis of his work
13 referral history and compared to his benefit
14 history?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You know he hasn't or you don't know
17 one way or the other?
18 A. No. I don't know.
19 Q. You don't know?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Is there anything else about this
22 RonsCo job other than your brother and Chuck the
23 foreman that would be characterized in the air
24 of inaccuracy or inconsistency with union rules?
25 A. No.
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2 BY MR. ROTHMAN:
3 Q. Did the foreman know that your brother
4 was on the job?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did the foreman sign the shop steward
7 reports knowing that your brother was not on the
job -- not on the shop steward report?
9 A. Yes, he might have.
10 BY MR. MACK:
11 Q. We can check the records, depending on
12 what you know, it's a fair question.
13 MR. LOMBARDI: Did you have discussion
14 with Chuck that your brother isn't on this?
15 THE WITNESS: No.
16 MR. LOMBARDI: Your brother wasn't on
17 the report and Chuck signed it?
18 THE WITNESS: Right.
19 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY
20 MR. ROTHMAN:
21 Q. Is there any other person that was
22 working on the job that was not on the shop
23 steward report that you wanted to do a solid
24 for?
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