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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK   AUG 13 2004

x UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,   DOAR RIECK & MACK

Plaintiff, -against-

DISTRICT COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY AND VICINITY OF THE UNITED BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND JOINERS OF AMERICA, et.al.,

Defendants.

Independent Investigator Deposition

Index No.

90 CIV 5722 (CSH)

x

August 2, 2004 4:35 o'clock p.m.

DEPOSITION of MICHAEL MITCHELL, a witness herein, taken by the Independent Investigator, Walter Mack, Esq., pursuant to letter subpoena, held at the offices of Doar, Rieck & Mack, Esqs., 217 Broadway, 7th Floor, New York, New York 10007-2911, before Stewart Nissenbaum, a Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New York.

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1                                               2

2   APPEARANCE S:

3

4   DOAR RIECK & MACK

217 Broadway - 7th Floor

5   New York,   New York 10007-2911

6   BY:   WALTER MARK,   ESQ.

Independent Investigator

7

8   O'DWYER & BERNSTEIN,   ESQS.

Attorneys for Union

9   52 Duane Street

New York, New York 10007

10

BY:   GARY SILVERMAN,   ESQ.

11

12

KOEHLER & ISAACS,   ESQS.

13   Attorneys for Witness

120 Broadway - 29th Floor

14   New York,   New York 10271

15   BY:   STEVEN ISAACS,   ESQ.

16

17   BENJAMIN H. TORRANCE,   ESQ.

Assistant United States Attorney

18   United States Department of Justice

86 Chambers Street

19   New York, New York 10007

20

21   ALSO PRESENT:

22   Donald Sobocienski

23

24   *   *   *

25

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   1   Mitchell                           151

   2   Q   All right. He went on the

   3   out-of-work list at 2:49 p.m.?

   4   A   And he was requested --

   5   Q   He was requested approximately

   6   three hours later. And he also, as you can

   7   look, as you go to the very next sheet

   8   starting June 3rd, he's the foreman.' And yet

   9   you have him listed as a union person. I'm

   10   trying to understand how that could occur.

   11   A   No, he's always a union person.

   12   He became the --

   13   Q   - When I say a union person, I mean

   14   a person that you count the union's side of

   15   the 50/50. I realize all these people are

   16   members.

   17   A   He was dispatched from the

   18   out-of-work list.

   19   Q   How can a foreman ever be a union

   20   part on the 50/50? Because he's a designee

   21   of the employer.

   22   A   It is ridiculous, but I believe

   23   the way the 50/50 is in place, that it can

   24   occur. I mean, if On Par requested Steve

   25   Isaacs to a job, technically, he is

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1   Mitchell   152

2   dispatched, and they make him the foreman.

3   Q   Did you ever discuss with Mr.

4   McGrath, who was the business agent, how a

5   foreman could be considered on the union side

6   of the 50/50? Was that ever a topic?

7   A   No. I don't believe so.

8   Q   In terms of reviewing the 50/50,

9   did you review the 50/50 with Mr. McGrath

10   while he was the business agent assigned to

11   the site?

12   A   Yes, any time you go to your

13   union haul, it is typical that your business

14   agent would look at your ratio, or ask you

15   how is your ratio.

16   Q   In terms of your determining that

17   in fact a particular carpenter should be

18   considered on the 50 percent, that is

19   considered union, how would you go about

20   that?

21   A   These old sheets, we are looking

22   at a different sheet. It was a Y or an N,

23   now it is a C or a U.

24   Q   The Y at least in your mind, if

25   I'm correct here

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   1   Mitchell   153

   2   A   They were dispatched from the

   3   out-of-work list.

   4   Q   That meant to you it was a union

   5   person; is that correct?

   6   A   Yes. It is ridiculous.

   7   Q   It is, we agree on that. One of

   8   the reasons that it is particularly

   9   ridiculous with Mr. Reilly, is that he is the

   10   foreman and he is carried as a union person.

   11   A   Like I said, he was the one

   12   signing -- this other guy was taken away, and

   13   he was there, and he was the man that signed

   14   the sheets. Someone had to sign them.

   15   Q   Right. Again, this may be one of

   16   those issues that there's no fault as far as

   17   you're concerned. I'm just trying to see how

   18   you applied the system.

   19   Let me give you some examples, of-

   20   which I have many. A carpenter comes to your

   21   jobsite, he is selected by On Par with a long

   22   history of On Par. He basically arrives as a

   23   company man and yet within weeks becomes

   24   transformed into a union man. How does that

   25   happen?

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1   Mitchell   154

2   A   I hear it with them all the time.

3   What they will say to a guy on a Friday, put

4   your name on the out-of-work list, and then

5   they request hum that afternoon to go to a

6   job on Saturday; and then Saturday tell him

7   for Monday morning, put your name back on the

8   out-of-work list, and request him back to the

9   job he just came from.

10   Q   Each time, because he has come

11   off the out-of-work list, officially he is

12   dispatched? You consider him a union person

13   as being dispatched? Correct?

14   A   Yes, yes.

15   Q   Now, here's a particular -- I'm

16   coming up with some particular wrinkles on

17   this. One, we have a foreman who is being

18   carried as a union person.

19   A   Which is ridiculous. Well,

20   shouldn't say a union person. A dispatch.

21   Q   He is a dispatch, but he is

22   counted under your computation, as well as

23   everyone, as a union person, he's either a Y

24   or an N or a U?

25   A   Here it was a Y or N, whether

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   1   Mitchell   155

   2   they were dispatched or not. He was

   3   dispatched from the list and, yes, he was the

   4   acting foreman.

   5   Q   But the Y was -- I mean was

   6   supposed to signify that that was on the

   7   union side?

   8   A   That he was a hold guy.

   9   Q   A union guy?

10   A   Yes, they are all union guys.

11   Q   No. But in other words, when

12   you're considering the 50/50 obligation under

   13   the Collective Bargaining Agreement, as long

14   as the carpenter goes on the out-of-work list

15   at some time and gets requested, you felt it

16   was appropriate to characterize him either as

17   a Y or as a union person?

18   A   Yeah, dispatched or Y, yes,

19   dispatched.

20   Q   What about an individual who

21   arrives as a company man on your jobsite,

22   okay, comes as a company person, all right,

23   shows up, I'll give an example of that;

24   Claudius Peters, he arrives as a company man

25   on July 16th, 2003.

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