2

1

2   APPEARANCE S:

   3   DOAR RIECK & MACK

217 Broadway - 7th Floor

   4   New York, New York 10007-2911

   5   BY:   WALTER MACK, ESQ.

Independent Investigator

6

   7   LISA ZORNBERG, ESQ.

Assistant United States Attorney

   8   United States Department of Justice 86 Chambers Street

   9   New York, New York 10007

10

   11   O'DWYER & BERNSTEIN, LLP

Attorneys for Union

   12   52 Duane Street

New York, New York 10007

13

BY:   STEVEN C. KASARDA, ESQ.

14

15

KOEHLER & ISAACS, LLP

   16   Attorneys for Witness

120 Broadway, 29th Floor

   17   New York, New York 10271

   18   BY:   STEVEN ISAACS, ESQ.

19

   20   Also Present:

   21   Donald Sobocienski

22

23

24

25

TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY, INC. (516) 741-5235

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   2   A   If Somebody overheard what I said

   3   in that bar and misconstrued it, then that's

   4   the case. I believe this originated from

   5   some remarks I made; the cause for this

   6   complaint originated with remarks I made at

   7   the May union meeting. I had a lot of things

   8   to say, addressed the general membership from

   9   the floor. I expressed my opinion on the

   10   50/50.

   11   Q   Could I ask you what that was?

   12   A   My opinion of the 50/50 that I

   13   expressed, was that due to the abuse of the

   14   request privilege now afforded the signatory

   15   contractors under our agreements, that the

   16   50/50 has become worthless, that now

   17   essentially -- I made the observation that

   18   the phones of our members aren't ringing, but

   19   the fax machines are humming between the

   20   contractors and out-of-work list, and it is a

   21   revolving door of the same individuals who

   22   are going to these projects, and our members

   23   are sitting on the out-of-work list.

   24   I, in particular, touched on the

   25   subject of our members over fifty who are

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   2   experiencing age discrimination, because

   3   these contractors will also hire a young guy

   4   before an old guy. They have a right to the

   5   pension.

   6   The subject of steward

   7   accountability, I spoke about. I said the

   8   problem is -- I observed, excuse me, I

   9   observed that being a shop steward is 10

   10   percent knowing rules, and 90 percent having

   11   the balls to enforce them. There are a lot

   12   of guys from outside Locals on the West Side

   13   with steward reports who weren't doing the

   14   job. They were complying with the

   15   out-of-work list rules, but sacrificing 90

   16   percent of our agreement. It wasn't so much

   17   they had to do the job, they had to not get

   18   caught not doing it.

   19   Q   Explain it to me.

   20   A   Mr. Mack, these people are very

   21   careful that the out-of-work list rules are

   22   complied with when they get referred to the

   23   job. You're dealing with guys who are going

   24   there, they know that if they're the first

   25   guys sent to the job, that they have to be

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   2   the last guy there. They won't make waves.

   3   Maybe they don't watch as closely, maybe they

   4   will work through lunch, sacrifice the

   5   remainder of the agreement in order to stay

   6   in good with the company.

   7   The guys are getting ridden, plus

   8   quotas are forbidden, yet production quotas

   9   are violated every day. If the members

   10   aren't represented, these guys are not known

   11   to the local business agents, right there you

   12   have a breakdown. There's a breakdown

   13   between elected representatives and the

   14   members working in the field, because these

   15   he is estranged, shop stewards aren't getting

   16   the job done. What happens? It is the

   17   working member who suffers. I touched on

   18   that.

   19    Q   Why would that cause some type of

   20   complaints against you, in your opinion?

   21   A   In my opinion, because I've only

   22   been a member of the local for eleven years,

23   Local Union 608. I'm not a member -- I'm not

   24   an established steward. I've never been a

   25   steward on a big project prior to this one.

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   2   MS. ZORNBERG: At the May 2004

   3   meeting, was there anyone from the

   4   Executive Committee or the delegates

   5   body, attending that meeting?

   6   THE WITNESS: Our Executive

   7   Committee, the Locals --

   8   MS. ZORNBERG: From within the

   9   District Council?

   10   THE WITNESS: The members who

   11   serve on the Executive Committee of our

   12   Local were present. All the officers

   13   and members of the Board of our Local

   14   were present.

   15   MS. ZORNBERG: Who are they?

   16   THE WITNESS: I really couldn't

   17   be certain. I'll go down the dais.

   18   Frank Schivone, Joe Firth, I'm going to

   19   say Chris Grogan. Who was next to him?

   20   Brian Hayes. Steve McGuinness, Moe

   21   Leary, Tommy McKeon, John Greaney, Moe

   22   McGrath, Eddie McWilliams, Brian Hayes,

   23   Eddie Mordsley, Martin Devereau. And I

   24   think Mike Ford was sitting in the back.

   25   Mike was there also, plus the

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   2   membership, and whoever else the Local

   3   delegates may be.

   4   MS. ZORNBERG: Does Mike Ford

   5   typically attend the Local's monthly

   6   meetings?

   7   THE WITNESS: He used to attend

   8   all of them. Since he became EST,

   9   probably one in four.

   10   MS. ZORNBERG: How did the issue

   11   of the 50/50 abuse come up at that 2004

   12   meeting? Was it something that was part

   13   of an agenda; was it something that you

   14   raised out of the blue, or that someone

   15   else at the meeting raised?

   16   THE WITNESS: A man named Brian

   17   Sheehan touched on the process that the

   18   request provision was being abused. He

   19   stood up and said there has to be a

   20   better system than the one we are

   21   working under. He says, the contractors

   22   are using only their guys, the

   23   out-of-work list is not moving.

   24   Now, I was planning on touching

   25   on this anyway, so I got up and I spoke;

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   2   I commented on his remarks, and

   3   addressed my own, after he spoke.

   4   MS. ZORNBERG: Is there an open

   5   floor where anyone attending can speak?

   6   THE WITNESS: Yes.

   7   MS. ZORNBERG: That's how the

   8   50/50 issue came up?

THE WITNESS: It was.

   10   MS. ZORNBERG: Was there any

   11   response to your remarks or

   12   Mr. Sheehan's remarks?

   13   THE WITNESS: They stood up and

   14   gave me a standing ovation. I don't

   15   know if it's in the record, but that's

   16   the truth.

   17   MS. ZORNBERG: Unanimously?

   18   THE WITNESS: I didn't look

   19   behind, but there were a lot of guys

   20   clapping.

   21   MS. ZORNBERG: How many people

   22   were at the meeting.

   23   THE WITNESS: Three to four

   24   hundred.

   25   MS. ZORNBERG: Do you often have

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   2   that many in attendance?

   3   THE WITNESS: We get more at the

   4   Christmas party. It depends on the time

   5   of the year. May is a busy month,

   6   everybody is there. It thins out in the

   7   summer; guys are on vacation. And we

   8   have quarterly meetings that we --it

   9   varies, I mean.

   10   MS. ZORNBERG: Did Mike Ford make

   11   any remarks responsive to the 50/50

   12   issues raised at the May 2004 meeting?

   13   THE WITNESS: No, he didn't. He

   14   made a comment to me afterwards. He

   15   said: Dennis, you can't hold these

   16   things in, you have to get them out. If

   17   it makes you feel better, just express

   18   yourself. I told him, I try, Mike.

   19   MS. ZORNBERG: You don't strike

   20   me as someone who has trouble keeping

   21   things in

   22   Are there any minutes taken at

   23   the Local meetings of 608?

    24   THE WITNESS: Yes.

   25   Ms. Zornberg: Who takes them?

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   2   THE WITNESS: The Recording

   3   Secretary, Maurice Leary.

   4   MS. ZORNBERG: Are they

   5   circulated?

   6   THE WITNESS: They are available

   7   to the general membership. The minutes

   8   are read at the following meeting, and the minutes of the Local meeting are

   10   available to anyone who wants to see

   11   them, at the Local union office.

   12   MS. ZORNBERG: Have you ever gone

   13   back to look at the minutes taken of the

   14   May 2004 meeting?

   15   THE WITNESS: No, I haven't.

   16   MS. ZORNBERG: Do you know from

   17   speaking with anyone, whether or not the

   18   minutes of that meeting reflect your

   19   comments and Mr. Sheehan's comments

   20   about 50/50 abuse?

   21   THE WITNESS: I never had any

   22   reason to query the minutes.

   23   MS. ZORNBERG: I'm going to put

   24   on the record a request that I'll follow.

   25   up in writing to the District Council:

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   2   The U.S. Government is going to request

   3   copies of the minutes of the Local 608

   4   may 2004 meeting. Thank you.

   5   BY MR. MACK:

   6   Q   Just to finish the topic, was

   7   there any mention there at the meeting, that

   8   the Independent Investigator has been

   9   critical of the 50/50 and the request system