Transcript of Trusteeship Hearing for laborers Local 734 on December 07, 2004
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2 OFFICE OF THE GENERAL EXECUTIVE BOARD ATTORNEY
3 LABORERS' INTERNATIONAL UNION OF NORTH AMERICA
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5 In the Matter of
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7 TRUSTEESHIP PROCEEDINGS
8 LOCAL 734
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13 December 7, 2004
10:30 o'clock a.m.
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15 Hilton Gateway
Newark, New Jersey
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18 B E F O R E:
19 PETER F. VAIRA,
20 Independent Hearing Officer.
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2 A P P E A R A N C E S:
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Messrs. PATTON BOGGS, LLP
4 Attorneys for Office of the General
Board Attorney
5 2550 M Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20037-1350
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BY: PATRICK J. SLEVIN, Esq., of Counsel
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8 Messrs. COHEN LEDER MONTALBANO & GROSSMAN
Attorneys for Michael Rosado
9 1700 Galloping Hill Road
Kenilworth, New Jersey 07033
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11 BY: BRUCE LEDER, Esq., of Counsel
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19 Tina DeRosa,
Reporter.
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2 P R O C E E D I N G S
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: You are
4 going to put on Mr. Rosado this
5 morning?
6 MR. LEDER: Yes.
7 M I C H A E L R O S A D O, called as a
8 witness, having been first duly sworn by
9 Tina DeRosa, a Notary Public within and for
10 the State of New Jersey, was examined and
11 testified as follows:
12 DIRECT EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. LEDER:
14 Q Mr. Rosado, would you state your
15 full name for the record, spelling your last name?
16 A Michael A. Rosado, R-O-S-A-D-O.
17 Q Try to keep your voice up for the
18 reporter.
19 A There is no microphone.
20 (A short recess was taken.)
21 Q Mr. Rosado, did you graduate high
22 school?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And did you attend college?
25 A Some.
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2 Q How long did you attend college?
3 A Approximately two years.
4 Q Where did you go to college?
5 A Englewood Cliffs College in
6 Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey.
7 Q After your college experience what
8 did you do?
9 A I moved to Puerto Rico for a year
10 and a half and worked in the hotel down there in
11 public relations and all, and then I relocated
12 back here I believe it was 1975 and worked
13 construction, plumbing supplies and labor.
14 Q Is there any point in time when you
15 got a union job?
16 A Yes.
17 Q When was that?
18 A It was 1985. '85 I would think is
19 my entry date.
20 Q Were you a member of the labor
21 union?
22 A Yes.
23 Q What labor union was that?
24 A Local 31, Hudson County.
25 Q Local 31 is a local of what
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2 International?
3 A LIUNA.
4 Q How long were you employed as a
5 union laborer?
6 A At different times. I mean from '85
7 until I started working at Local 734. I mean six
8 years, but at different times.
9 I mean I was laid off for six months
10 in the wintertime, you know, different companies
11 and all that. That is the way the structure is.
12 It was not one company for six years.
13 Q Right. Were you ever a shop
14 steward?
15 A Once, yes. Once or twice.
16 Q For approximately how long?
17 A As long as the job took, a couple of
18 months.
19 Q Now, after that I believe you
20 indicated you went to work for Local 734?
21 A Yes, I did.
22 Q Which entity?
23 A Pension and Orphan.
24 Q Do you recall what year that was?
25 A April '91.
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2 Q Do you recall who you interviewed
3 with?
4 A George Wilkins.
5 Q Was he employed at that time?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Who was he employed by?
8 A Local 734.
9 Q Do you know what his title was?
10 A At the time I just knew he was a big
11 boss, but then subsequently after I got hired I
12 found out, I found out he was the Business
13 Manager.
14 Q Was he also Trustee to the Welfare
15 and Pension Funds?
16 A I don't recall. I was a young guy
17 and it was my first -- I didn't go around asking
18 who is who.
19 Q Did you know what a Trustee to a
20 Pension Fund was?
21 A No.
22 Q What was your job at the Welfare
23 Fund in 1980?
24 A Clerical, medical claims, PCS, CPT
25 codes. I was training to process the medical
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2 claims.
3 Q What was your salary then?
4 A I believe it was like $400 because I
5 remember compared to what a laborer was making it
6 was like a salary cut, but it was full-time.
7 Q I assume when you say $400 it was
8 $400 a week?
9 A Right.
10 Q Did your functions and duties ever
11 change from being in the medical claim department?
12 A Yes.
13 Q When did they change?
14 A Maybe soon after that. Maybe within
15 the same year or approximately a year. The girl
16 that was doing the dues and initiation and per
17 capita reports, she either got fired or quit or
18 whatever. But I was asked to train for that job
19 which I was trained for almost a year.
20 It was inputting check-off sheets,
21 dues, initiation for membership, preparing monthly
22 upper capita reports. So I took over the Dues and
23 Initiation Department.
24 Q Do you know who trained you?
25 A It might have been Evelyn Bazarnicki
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2 who was one of the part-timers and there was
3 another part-timer who at the time was the office
4 manager.
5 No, it wasn't, Evelyn was gone.
6 There was a battery of other women around me that
7 were trained. I remember Evelyn and Fran Cirone.
8 She was the office manager.
9 Q Do you know how Fran spells her last
10 name?
11 A Cirone, C-I-R-O-N-E.
12 Q How long did you stay at that
13 function?
14 A Approximately two years.
15 Q What job did you then assume?
16 A During that time I was doing a lot
17 of other different things around there, and
18 assisting Fran Cirone who was the office manager,
19 with no title. I was just helping out a lot.
20 She had to resign her position in
21 '93 I think it was or a couple years after I was
22 hired and I was offered that position and I took
23 it as office manager and I was still doing the
24 dues and initiation and per capita and then
25 running the daily activities of Local 734's office
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2 and staff.
3 Q Approximately how many people was
4 the office staff?
5 A At that time it was considerably
6 more than now. I mean I would say approximately
7 maybe anywhere from 15, maybe even 20.
8 Q Those people were clerical types?
9 A Yes. All clerical.
10 Q During this period of time were you
11 involved with the union side of things?
12 A Mostly on the translation end.
13 There was another business rep, Carlos Tate who
14 spoke Spanish, but mostly in '93 it was mostly
15 with the office.
16 And then like a year or so after
17 that I started assisting like at nighttime if they
18 were, if the business reps was going out on an
19 organizing drive and it was predominantly
20 Spanish-speaking or whatever, I would go out at
21 nighttime with them.
22 If it was some type of grievance
23 hearing or whatever, they would ask me to leave
24 the office for an hour, but I wasn't doing any
25 business rep duties, just assisting mostly on a
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2 translation and mostly on --
3 Q You are fluent in Spanish?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Are you fluent in any other
6 language?
7 A English.
8 Q That was going to be my next
9 question.
10 How long did you stay as office
11 manager?
12 A About three and a half years.
13 Q What was your job then?
14 A To the best of my recollection in
15 late '96 Carlos Tate who again was serving as
16 President on the Executive Board, I don't know if
17 he was a Trustee at the time.
18 I know he wasn't. He was a business
19 rep and also the only Spanish-speaking rep that we
20 had. He took a job with the FMCS and he resigned
21 his duties and at the time, you know, and again I
22 was pretty much, you know, acclimated with the
23 whole structure of the office, the dues, the
24 membership.
25 I had a relationship with companies
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2 because of the dues situation. I was always on
3 the phone with, you know, owners and managers and
4 stuff.
5 So the Executive Board again
6 approved me and asked me, you know, they said you
7 are fit for this. We would like you to come on
8 board as a business rep and also take over the
9 duties as President or whatever of the Executive
10 Board. I think that that was late '96.
11 Q How is it that you were appointed
12 President?
13 A Through the Executive Board and then
14 through -- I know there is a letter out there from
15 the International because they said they had to
16 clear it through the International I think.
17 There is a letter I think, but that
18 is my recollection that somebody came down and
19 interviewed me. I don't know if it was Mr. Elko,
20 but I think so.
21 Q At the time of your appointment as
22 President.
23 A Yes.
24 Q Did you ever run for the position of
25 President?
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2 A Yes.
3 Q Do you recall when?
4 A That would have been in -- no, I am
5 sorry, I am counting backwards because 2001 was
6 the last -- three years -- that would have been
7 May of '98.
8 Q You were elected as President?
9 A Yes.
10 Q As President did you have any other
11 responsibilities besides being President of the
12 union?
13 A Well, really the way it was I was a
14 business rep with the President's title.
15 Q What did a business rep do in --
16 well, what were a business rep's duties in 1998
17 and even in 2000, is it --
18 A I still do the same.
19 Q What does business rep do?
20 A We are out there servicing our shops
21 that are appointed to us. Mandatory on a monthly
22 basis, if not at one time we were doing it twice a
23 month especially with troublesome shops, we
24 handled the grievances and more importantly than
25 anything the collective bargaining agreements.
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2 We negotiate the collective
3 bargaining agreements and basically maintain a one
4 on one relationship with the membership,
5 especially shop stewards.
6 Q You said that it was mandatory once
7 a month and at a time it was twice a month?
8 A Yes. We have what we call, this
9 goes way back before me, shop reports. So in
10 other words, if I am out in the field, you know,
11 it's not like I can come in on a staff meeting or
12 any time and say, well, I went to five shops
13 today.
14 And not only for a sense of
15 monitoring, you know, because you don't want to
16 put anybody -- like I am baby-sitting or anything
17 like that, but as a sense of I am a proponent of
18 paper trails and documenting everything and I make
19 sure that everything gets documented as far as you
20 visit a shop and you ask the shop steward what is
21 going on, everything is quiet, fine, no problems
22 or grievances.
23 You document the things because if
24 you have 30 shop, 30 shop stewards, maybe 800
25 members out there, somebody will hold you to
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2 something and say I told you the last time you
3 were here last month. So I make sure that
4 everything is documented in that sense.
5 Q Since 1996 it has been the procedure
6 of documenting your monthly meetings?
7 A No, before that.
8 Q Are those records maintained by the
9 union?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Are those documents maintained by
12 the union?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And are they kept at the union
15 office?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Returning to your election in 1998,
18 did you stay as President?
19 A Until the end of the year.
20 Q Until the end of 1998?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What happened in the end of 1998?
23 A The Business Manager at the time was
24 Dan Castiglione, I believe it was November,
25 December of 1998 was going through some personal
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2 problems and which subsequently resulted in his
3 resigning or I believe at first he took a leave
4 for some time or whatever until some type of
5 investigation that was going on to clear things
6 up.
7 And he resigned his position and
8 again it was put in my lap by the Executive Board
9 to come on board as Business Manager which if I am
10 not mistaken was January '99.
11 Q Is the Business Manager also the
12 business rep?
13 A Yes. I don't know what other -- I
14 know of other Business Managers that are in that
15 function are at my place, yes.
16 Q What was different about the
17 Business Manager's position versus the
18 President's?
19 A Again like any time that I took a
20 position I would open up, you know, what I call
21 the manual or the bible and that would be the
22 constitution in this capacity anyway and, you
23 know, till this day I don't know verbatim, but I
24 know the Business Manager oversees the day-to-day
25 operations of the local, the field reps, appoints
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2 shop stewards, amongst other things. Sits on the
3 Executive Board of course and is the automatic
4 delegate to the convention. It is just different
5 aspects of it.
6 Q Did the International have to
7 approve your appointment as a Business Manager?
8 A Yes, I believe so, especially in
9 this situation here.
10 Q Is the Business Manager an elected
11 position?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Did you stand for election after
14 November of 1998?
15 A 2001.
16 Q That was for --
17 A And 2004.
18 Q So it is a three-year term?
19 A Yes.
20 Q You are reelected again in 2004?
21 A Yes.
22 Q I want to turn your attention to the
23 early part of this century, 2000, 2002. Was the
24 local experiencing any problems?
25 A Yes.
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2 Q What were those problems?
3 A Well, they were more concerns back
4 then. They turned into problems. First of all,
5 prior -- prior to me becoming a Business Manager
6 my predecessor or whatever, the local and I want
7 to use the words that were used yesterday, it's
8 sort of like autonomous the local. It's basically
9 has a lot of industrial contracts, a lot of
10 residential cleaning.
11 It is not your normal trades local.
12 We were like autonomous in the background with
13 being involved with the regional, the
14 International in any aspect.
15 And when I came on as Business
16 Manager I found out about political CAPS meetings.
17 I found a lot about conferences. We really -- my
18 predecessor never went to any of these and never
19 got involved and I wanted to get the local more
20 involved with the International.
21 And I was told the way to do that
22 would be through the regional office. So I
23 started attending some conferences and gathering
24 up some information and the first time I ever
25 heard words like market share, increasing market
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2 share was our General President and all that.
3 You know, I was just really
4 interested and I in hindsight and still to this
5 day it's a local. You can organize anybody. It's
6 a catch-all local in our eyes. You grab in to
7 increase membership. In my eyes I would sit there
8 and say we could do a lot in here as far as
9 increasing membership. So I had some insight on
10 that.
11 Around 2000, 2001 I was the business
12 rep handling the Jersey City area which they call
13 that strip right there like Gold Coast. We have
14 always done our own organizing. You take your
15 suit jacket off at night and put a windbreaker on
16 and chase these little buses and organize.
17 Q What do you mean little buses?
18 A They transport people from locations
19 like, you know, on gitneys or whatever. And you
20 see them on the highway a lot now. They transport
21 workers from different shops home.
22 We would actually ride some of the
23 buses with fliers and stuff like that. It wasn't
24 unusual for me to buy a bus driver a coffee and a
25 sandwich and ask him what time this shift gets out
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2 and ask if I could ride with him or whatever and
3 have one of my guys follow me.
4 Going back to the Jersey City area,
5 I always told the reps you know what, if you are
6 driving, you see a crane in the background, get
7 off the highway, find out where that crane is
8 because that is a building going up.
9 What we do we clean, we have
10 cleaning contracts. So we will do the fine
11 cleaning. We will do the cleaning on commercial
12 or residential.
13 I always had this mantra or whatever
14 follow the crane, follow the crane. In Jersey
15 City there were cranes all over the place. We had
16 a relationship with the Lefrak organization which
17 is a big developer out in New York City, and he
18 was over here doing his thing building and we had
19 one, two, three, four, five, six buildings with
20 him with more to come.
21 So I think it was the latter part of
22 2000, maybe beginning 2001 there was a meeting
23 arranged at the regional office. Pat was in
24 attendance. Pat Byrne. David Grossman, myself
25 and Mike Fishman who had, I think he just took
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2 over as 32BJ President.
3 Q Who is 32BJ?
4 A They are the SEIU. We are looked at
5 as a small 32BJ compared to them. They are a big
6 service and maintenance local out of New York City
7 and traditionally as I just said they were in New
8 York City. They never came over here.
9 And this guy, I mean he had the
10 courtesy to come over and meet with me and he told
11 me straight out, he told me listen, I am going to
12 come to New Jersey. I just want to tell you about
13 we are not going to raid your shops because it's
14 an Article 20. We have to respect the AFL-CIO
15 banner. The unorganized, we are going to organize
16 the unorganized.
17 He actually asked me if I went to
18 the racetracks, especially the Meadowlands. I was
19 speaking on behalf of myself and I am sure
20 membership. I was a little concerned when he said
21 to me we have a war chest organizing. Our
22 resources are in the millions.
23 He mentioned like maybe we have
24 $5 million allocated for organizing and 50
25 full-time organizers. So then I am sitting there
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2 saying to myself I have myself and three other
3 guys and pocket change in my pocket. I didn't say
4 this to him, but I was like, you know, what do I
5 got.
6 It was sort of like David and
7 Goliath situation. That is the way I felt. He
8 was courteous. I have a lot of respect for the
9 guy. He told me straight out I am coming in here,
10 so move over. That stayed with me and I told my
11 reps, I said listen, you have to be diligent out
12 there. Make sure your shops are happy. Don't get
13 comfortable and you feel they can't raid you
14 because they are out there, look around and so
15 forth and so on.
16 So I always had the SEIU in the back
17 and then on top of that we started getting the
18 independent -- this independent local, Local 971
19 started coming in and asking questions around the
20 Jersey City area.
21 At the time I was, experiencing, me
22 personally as a rep was experiencing a couple of
23 problems with one member. I had gotten him his
24 job back. There was a lot of internal fighting
25 between some members and it stemmed back to their
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2 neighborhoods at home and they were bringing this
3 back to work. There was like a lot animosity on
4 the job and I was trying to mediate some things,
5 but I know there were one or two guys that went
6 out talking to this Local 971 which eventually it
7 got back to me.
8 Hey, Mike, some of these guys are
9 meeting, this guy is buying them beer and meeting
10 them after work and taking them out for a couple
11 of beers, so watch. I was like I can't stop that.
12 So the letters started on my end. I
13 started, you know, trying to do some what you
14 might call damage control. I was trying to spin
15 things around with some letters. Don't forget
16 what you have, your pensions, the collective
17 bargaining. You have been with the local maybe at
18 the time 12 years. We have a relationship with
19 the men.
20 A couple of them their attitude was
21 very militant. It was like screw this. They
22 always had an attitude. One of my biggest fears
23 is that they are right on the Hudson River and
24 there is New York right there. Their attitude was
25 they get $16 an hour over there. I would say see
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2 that body of water over there, the demographics,
3 everything, everything changes on this side of the
4 river. If I can get you $16 I would be the first
5 one to get you $16.
6 So, you know, there was a lot of
7 militant stuff with that and whose cousin worked
8 for 32B over there and they sit down for dinner
9 and it is like well, I open the same door for the
10 same tenants or I mop the same floors, whatever
11 and they get more money over there. But again
12 they couldn't understand the economics.
13 So I went through this for a few
14 months and I wasn't getting too far. At the time
15 I was writing letters I believe it was to
16 Mr. Byrne, maybe a few more to Mr. Pocino
17 informing him about the SEIU, keeping him abreast
18 that I was a little concerned about what was going
19 on in Jersey City here, sort of like what is our
20 next move or so forth and so on.
21 Q Did you get any assistance through
22 the regional office?
23 A Well, first, can I go back to the
24 conferences that I said earlier that I was
25 starting to attend.
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2 You know, I don't know if it was
3 General President, I believe it was General
4 President O'Sullivan. At one point, I don't know
5 where we were, but it was a hotel in a lobby and I
6 had just heard this really like inspirational
7 market share speech and all.
8 I approached him and told him a
9 little bit about our local. We have an
10 opportunity to do stuff with this local. He says
11 the protocol, go through your region, go through
12 your region which again there were some letters
13 out there to Ray and I had told Ray and met with
14 Ray about it.
15 I had asked Ray, which Ray was
16 instrumental in setting up a meeting with me and
17 some of the other Business Managers because if I
18 am a Business Manager for the trades and I am
19 putting up a few buildings, residential buildings,
20 when I am getting ready to pull my guys out of
21 there, if I put a call in to Mike and give him
22 some heads up.
23 I don't know who is bidding on these
24 jobs, but if you got one of your contractors or if
25 I want to come in here and look around.
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2 So I figured that would be helpful
3 and I met with some of the Business Managers to
4 talk about letting me know when those cranes are
5 up there, let me know when they are leaving
6 because I will be right there.
7 And also I believe at the time I met
8 Dave Johnson who was in charge of that organizing
9 arm of LEROF and in the summer of 2001 I believe
10 myself, Dave Johnson, Ana Taveras, I had met them
11 in the Jersey City area and we drove around Jersey
12 City.
13 As a matter of fact, I took some
14 pictures. I was showing them the different
15 buildings telling them of my concept of following
16 cranes around and telling them what buildings were
17 ours. We took a half a day and drove around
18 Jersey City and all. Just to get some feedback.
19 They are organizers. They are the professionals.
20 And Dave brought up some ideas about
21 the voice training program that they offer to
22 membership and all. So I had a little excitement
23 in me thinking that would help. Then it was
24 brought to my attention, I don't know if it was
25 Pat, Ray or -- it had to be either Pat or Ray or
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2 maybe even Dave Johnson because he was the
3 director of LEROF. But it was brought to my
4 attention we didn't contribute to LEROF. So
5 naturally, which made common sense to me, we
6 weren't a priority.
7 I brought this back to the Executive
8 Board. Everything I would bring back to the
9 Executive Board from conferences and I would tell
10 the Executive Board I want to go to this
11 conference, I want us to be more involved with the
12 International and regional.
13 The LEROF thing I brought back to
14 the Executive Board and told these guys I think we
15 would get a lot more feedback, a lot more
16 contribution if we contributed to LEROF which we
17 subsequently became contributors to the Fund after
18 some time, but it was something that I thought
19 would be prudent on our end to do.
20 Q After you became contributors did
21 the assistance from LEROF increase, decrease, stay
22 the same?
23 A No. Basically it's just been the
24 same. You see, we went into supervision. So now
25 we are going into two different areas.
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2 In the beginning before the
3 voluntary supervision which was in late 2002 there
4 was some voice training that was offered out there
5 for membership.
6 Q What is voice training?
7 A It's really like a history. I never
8 took the course. I have sat in. It's like a
9 four-hour history thing of organizing, the history
10 of unions. They get into your family, how unions
11 work and this and that. They get into the
12 industry, your end, whether it's construction or
13 whatever.
14 Actually, the first time I sat in
15 they gave a construction one and there were shop
16 stewards, guys like Jerry who works in GTK. He is
17 a shop steward at one of our industrial companies
18 over here in Bayonne and other shop stewards are
19 sitting there and looking at me, concrete.
20 So I brought it up to the guy that
21 was doing the voice training. I brought to his
22 attention you have to change it around. These
23 guys have no clue what we are talking about when
24 you start talking about building and concrete.
25 You have to make it more focused.
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2 Again, you know, they offered it out
3 and we were trying to get people to come. Guys
4 work hard. They are not high paying members. So
5 a lot of it is not unusual for somebody to get out
6 of work at 3:00 and go to a second job at 3:30.
7 It is not unusual at all with our membership.
8 Q Prior to voluntary supervision did
9 Mr. Pocino request that the local change
10 attorneys?
11 A That was December of 2001. Ray
12 called me down at a meeting. I met with Ray and
13 we were talking about this stuff, you know,
14 organizing, this, that and so forth.
15 And he brought to my attention that
16 Al Kroll's firm, mentioned the name and all and
17 they work along with other locals. I believe
18 maybe even the regional, but other locals and all
19 and in a sense of being consistent and, you know,
20 they are a labor law firm. I had never heard of
21 them at the time, nor did I ever hear of
22 Mr. Kroll.
23 He said maybe it's time for change.
24 I would like you to go back to the Executive Board
25 and talk to them and see if they would consider
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2 that maybe it would be good to have a change and
3 stuff. I said absolutely. And I went back to the
4 Executive Board.
5 Q What did the Executive Board say?
6 A They weren't favoring it due to the
7 fact that the firm that we had was with us for 25
8 years or maybe more or maybe less, but for a long
9 time and they handled the local.
10 They handled the Welfare and Pension
11 and they were doing just their normal good job.
12 There were no problems or anything. Plus our shop
13 stewards, our members, they all knew these guys
14 from guys that have been in arbitrations. They
15 knew the attorneys and all that. So it was sort
16 of like if it's not broke don't fix it type thing.
17 So the Executive Board said, you
18 know what, go back to Mr. Pocino and say you maybe
19 will look at this in another year, but we are
20 really comfortable with these guys.
21 Q During that year prior to
22 supervision was the local served any
23 decertification petitions?
24 A Yes, the summer of 2002.
25 Q Do you recall how many there were?
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2 A It was one site, one site. It is
3 one complex, the same. There are four different
4 buildings in the complex and it's called NC
5 Housing.
6 Q Was that one contract?
7 A It was one contract for -- okay.
8 Let me retract that. There is two buildings
9 across the street here and four building here.
10 These two building here and these buildings it is
11 the same owner for all six buildings, the same
12 guys.
13 These two building here with one
14 contract, they started a decertification process
15 first. After that was over, a couple of months
16 later, that is when the process started in all
17 these four buildings and that would be
18 approximately 75 men throughout the local.
19 Q Seventy-five employees in the six
20 buildings?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What was the membership of Local 734
23 at that time?
24 A Approximately 3,000.
25 Q Was Local 734 unsuccessful in those
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2 two decertification --
3 A Yes.
4 Q So those members went to another
5 union?
6 A Yes. Can I make a point going back
7 to 2000, 2001 with this organizing. I also want
8 to go on record and say that Local 734 at one
9 time, maybe '99, 2000, I am not sure was 45, 4,400
10 strong.
11 Our membership, we lost
12 approximately anywhere from a thousand to 1,200
13 members due to three to four big companies that
14 closed down. Companies that had approximately 300
15 employees in each one. Maybe 250 here, 400 there.
16 Maybe another one had 500. But due to economics,
17 outsourcing and moving across the sea we lost
18 anywhere from a thousand to 1,200 members because
19 of that.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: These
21 jobs that you lost, were these
22 cleaners?
23 THE WITNESS: Industrial. One
24 was United Sweater, a mill. One was
25 tapes, VCR tapes. They packaged
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2 tapes, GTIS. HUP Jacobson in Altoona,
3 Pennsylvania. All Fasteners,
4 Industrial.
5 Due to economics, due to
6 closedowns and all for maybe a period
7 of four years we just experienced a
8 downsizing. We lost 1,200 members and
9 it wasn't due to any type of
10 decertification or anything like that.
11 These guys were 75 as opposed
12 to 1,200 that did not want to leave.
13 THE HEARING OFFICER: The 75
14 that you lost in decertification, you
15 say they did not go non-union, but
16 that they went to someone else. Who
17 did they go to?
18 THE WITNESS: That is why the
19 raid came in. 971, an independent
20 local.
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: You have
22 had some problems with 911, too.
23 THE WITNESS: Us?
24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: No.
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2 BY MR. LEDER:
3 Q Where are the members of Local 734
4 located?
5 A The members.
6 Q Where do they live?
7 A Throughout. I mean in New York
8 City. Throughout the whole State of New Jersey.
9 Pennsylvania. I would say that is it.
10 Pennsylvania, New York, and New Jersey.
11 Q Is there a concentration in any one
12 area or are they spread out all over?
13 A Spread out all over.
14 Q Did there come a time in 2002 where
15 Mr. Pocino requested a meeting with you and the
16 Executive Board?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Do you recall when that meeting was?
19 A That would be late September. Late
20 September, early October, 2002.
21 Q Where was that meeting held?
22 A At the Regional Office.
23 Q Did your entire Executive Board show
24 up?
25 A Yes.
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2 Q Who else was there?
3 A Mr. Pocino and Mr. Byrne.
4 Q What happened that day?
5 A I received a call from Pat Byrne
6 earlier in the week requesting for myself to get
7 the Executive Board to come down. That Ray wanted
8 to meet us and it would be at night after office
9 hours and we had to discuss Local 734 and
10 organizing and that is all and of course it was
11 not a problem and we went down.
12 Q When you got there who did you meet
13 with?
14 A When we got there I remember Pat
15 asked me to come inside first with him and Ray and
16 I did and everybody stayed outside. And I sat
17 down and met with Pat and Ray.
18 Q What did you discuss?
19 A Well, at the time I never heard of
20 voluntary supervision. I heard the word
21 Trusteeship before, but I just never heard or knew
22 what this was all about.
23 At the time Mr. Pocino said to me we
24 are going to ask you guys to go into voluntary
25 supervision tonight and I knew it didn't sound
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2 good. So I said what is that. Sort of like the
3 same way I am doing it now.
4 He started to explain to me the way
5 it is in the constitution and stuff and then I
6 asked, well, why. And he referred to the raiding
7 and some of the problems that we are having in
8 Jersey City area and he just thought it would be
9 in the best interest if we do this exactly as it's
10 written, to protect our jurisdiction and increase
11 our market share and so forth.
12 Q Was there a meeting with the rest of
13 the members of the Executive Board?
14 A Yes. Right after at the time
15 Mr. Pocino gave me the courtesy -- he knew I was a
16 little like in shock at the time. I didn't know
17 what was going to happen.
18 He said, Mike, do you want to go in
19 and talk to your guys or do you want me to go in
20 and tell them. Do you want to give them a heads
21 up. I said let me go in and tell them what we are
22 facing there.
23 I went into the conference room.
24 The guys were sitting there. As soon as I walked
25 in I had a face on and they knew it wasn't
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2 anything good and I told them what was going on.
3 Mr. Byrne and Mr. Pocino came in a little while
4 after.
5 Q Was it your understanding that the
6 Executive Board was voluntarily agreeing to
7 supervision?
8 A That night we were being told about
9 it. In fact, Mr. Vaira on the phone, there was a
10 hearing about this sometime later where we went
11 into it, yes. But at that night at that meeting
12 none of us really knew -- I mean we had a sense of
13 what it was, but we never been through this
14 before. Not me, anyway.
15 Q Did you understand that the
16 Executive Board was going to voluntarily consent
17 to the supervision?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Did anyone inquire as to what
20 happened if they didn't consent?
21 A Yes, there was a question asked. I
22 believe it was Recording Secretary John Fritzsch
23 that inquired what happens if we don't go into it
24 or whatever, and Mr. Pocino says because of the
25 consequences that are happening in Jersey City and
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2 what is going on that he would have no alternative
3 but to ask for Trusteeship.
4 Q Was there a discussion about the
5 differences between Trusteeship and voluntary
6 supervision?
7 A No. We just knew it wasn't good on
8 either end.
9 Q Was it considered a Trusteeship was
10 worse than voluntary supervision?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Did the Executive Board voluntarily
13 sign off on the supervision?
14 A Yes.
15 Q There was a hearing?
16 A Yes.
17 Q By telephone?
18 A Yes.
19 Q The members of the Executive Board
20 agreed, though, to voluntarily enter the
21 supervision?
22 MR. SLEVIN: Is there a
23 response to that?
24 A I am sorry, yes.
25 Q Did you get any indication about how
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2 long the supervision was going to last?
3 A No. I mean when Mr. Pocino was
4 talking to us about supervision at the meeting I
5 mean he made reference to the fact that hopefully
6 we could straighten all this out with the raiding
7 and organizing and all and who knows, maybe we
8 could even be out of this, be done with this
9 within six months or so. And, if not, you know,
10 it's an 18-month period.
11 Q All right. At the end of six-month
12 period under supervision did you have any
13 discussion with Mr. Pocino and Mr. Byrne?
14 A No, I don't recall any.
15 Q So you never had a discussion?
16 A No.
17 Q At the end of 18 months did you have
18 a discussion?
19 A I don't recall, no. No.
20 Q You say you do not recall. Does
21 that mean it could have happened?
22 A No. I don't think on my end, no.
23 Q You do not recall a conversation as
24 to why it was extended six months or why it
25 extended past 18 months?
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2 A No.
3 Q During the period of the supervision
4 were you ever advised things were not going right
5 and therefore it had to be fixed?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Right after supervision did the
8 assistance from LEROF change?
9 A Yes. It got turned up a notch. We
10 were having these STAR meetings which I think were
11 monthly right off the bat. It's an acronym for
12 something, but had to do with organizing, market
13 share and all.
14 Deputy Supervisor Ana Taveras, she
15 was I believe chief organizer or whatever. She
16 was out there with some organizers Spanish and
17 English-speaking doing house calling.
18 They tried to, right around October
19 there were maybe two more buildings Tower America
20 buildings that were still -- by this time three
21 buildings, if I am not mistaken, three buildings
22 decertified by this time.
23 But right around that time, maybe
24 September, October when they were around there
25 were still two more buildings that still hadn't
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2 made the decision and they went out house calling
3 to the membership and all and had some meetings
4 and all. So they got involved.
5 Q Were they able to get back the
6 decertification?
7 A No.
8 Q That decertification was filed?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Is that one of two contracts you
11 spoke about before?
12 A Yes.
13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Members,
14 you are losing members to this SEIU or
15 the independent?
16 THE WITNESS: The independent.
17 Q The same situation you described
18 before between the two building and four
19 buildings?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Were there any decertifications
22 besides those two?
23 A At the time or throughout?
24 Q At that time.
25 A No.
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2 Q Were the representatives of LEROF
3 excluding Ana Taveras organizing any others?
4 A There were some drives put together,
5 some targets at the STAR meetings. You had some
6 overhead projector.
7 There is one company called
8 Lambert's Furniture that I know was organized if I
9 am not mistaken maybe almost a year ago. But they
10 are still not in. They were organized, the cards
11 were signed. They won the election, but we don't
12 have a contract with them and they currently
13 aren't members. They are not paying dues.
14 Q Is it unusual in your experience
15 that it takes 11 months to negotiate a contract?
16 A No, not in this instance. I have
17 gone through a long period of negotiating a
18 contract, but with an already established company.
19 Q You do not require newly organized
20 to pay dues prior to the execution of first
21 contract?
22 A No.
23 Q Besides the change in the assistance
24 of LEROF, were there any other changes that were
25 implemented by the Supervisor?
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2 A Changes?
3 Q Were there changes in the attorney?
4 A Yes.
5 Q What happened there?
6 A Well, as a result of supervision I
7 kept getting hammered by my Executive Board and
8 they were the ones that made the decision a year
9 earlier and they were all under the same
10 consensus. You know, Mike, in hindsight we should
11 have just switched the attorneys a year ago, maybe
12 we wouldn't be in this problem today, but that is
13 just -- that is assumption. That is an opinion.
14 I said listen, it is what it is,
15 whatever. What do you guys want to do and I
16 recommended, I remember at the time I stood up and
17 told these guys, you know what, whether we did it
18 then or we do it now, again I have been telling
19 you guys for the last couple of years I want to in
20 the vein of being like so autonomous you guys are
21 always moaning and groaning that nobody ever pays
22 attention to us, this, that.
23 I wanted to get us more involved
24 with the regional, with the International on that
25 level. I wanted a relationship. My predecessor
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2 never had anything like that. Again nothing
3 against him but he was never involved.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: What was
5 objection to the old law firm?
6 THE WITNESS: What was the
7 objection?
8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Why did
9 you want to change?
10 THE WITNESS: We didn't want
11 to change. I don't know.
12 A So anyway I asked the guys what do
13 you want to do here and they followed my lead.
14 They said go talk to Ray and get it done and I
15 did.
16 Q When you are talking about the guys,
17 you are talking about the Executive Board?
18 A The Executive Board.
19 Q They are the ones that felt they
20 should have switched attorneys back when it was
21 first asked?
22 A Now they felt that way, not then.
23 It was hindsight.
24 Q Did you go to Ray and tell him you
25 were going to change attorneys?
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2 A Yes.
3 Q And the attorney was Al Kroll?
4 A Lynch Martin.
5 Q Lynch Martin was the name of the law
6 firm?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Was Al Kroll associated with that
9 law firm?
10 A I believe so, yes.
11 Q That was when?
12 A Right after supervision, so it would
13 have to be late 2002.
14 Q Did Al Kroll become associated with
15 the Pension and Welfare function?
16 A Lynch Martin did.
17 Q Was Al Kroll a member of that firm?
18 A I believe so, yes.
19 Q Do you know when that occurred?
20 A That would have been in 2003. I
21 don't know if it was maybe the spring of 2003 by
22 some type of the association, and then I think at
23 first the association was on a special counsel
24 basis or whatever and then maybe eight months
25 later, sometime later, maybe beginning of 2004 or
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2 the end of 2003 they came on full-time and the
3 other law firm was out.
4 Q You said full-time. They did not
5 work for the Pension and Welfare Funds on a
6 full-time basis?
7 A No.
8 Q They were the sole counsel?
9 A Yes, for Pension and Welfare.
10 Q Why was there a switch to Lynch
11 Martin as the attorneys for the Pension and
12 Welfare Fund?
13 A Well, first of all, it was also
14 recommended to me, once they came on to the local
15 it was recommended to me by Mr. Pocino and
16 Mr. Heineman, at the time Ray Heineman was the
17 attorney and whether you want to call it solicited
18 or whatever, he spoke to me and said we could also
19 work on, you know, your Pension and Welfare.
20 I said that is another hat. It is
21 not this hat. I will bring it to their attention
22 and so forth, and then Ray Pocino had also
23 mentioned it to me you might want to talk to your
24 Trustees about taking them on.
25 Q Did you follow that recommendation
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2 of Mr. Pocino?
3 A Yes, absolutely.
4 Q Did you recommend them, did you
5 recommend the law firm to take on the
6 responsibilities for the Pension and Welfare
7 Funds?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Was that approved by the Trustees?
10 A Yes.
11 Q From the beginning of supervision in
12 October of 2002, how many business representatives
13 were there besides yourself?
14 A Four including myself.
15 Q What were the names of the other
16 three individuals?
17 A Myself. This is 2002?
18 Q Yes.
19 A Myself, Tim Fritzsch, Joe
20 Gambardella, Frank Pernice, and at the time Peter
21 Rizzo who had been a business rep throughout the
22 '90's was more involved in the Pension and Welfare
23 and with Pension investigations and other Pension
24 and Welfare duties. He was handling maybe like
25 all of five shops by that time I believe.
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2 Q Okay.
3 A It was Joey, Timmy, myself, and
4 Frank Pernice.
5 Q At the beginning of the supervision
6 did the Supervisor or his representatives indicate
7 to you there should be a change in any of the
8 Business Agents in 2002?
9 A Not at that time, no.
10 Q Did they implement changes regarding
11 personnel, but non-business representatives?
12 A Yes. But that was 2003 as a result
13 of survey that was sent out.
14 Q Who was running the day-to-day
15 operation of the union under supervision in
16 October of 2002?
17 A In October of 2002?
18 Q Yes.
19 A I was. Under Pat and Ana.
20 Q Pat Byrne?
21 A Pat Byrne and Ana Taveras.
22 Q Did you still conduct Executive
23 Board meetings?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Did Deputy Supervisor attend to any
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2 of those meetings?
3 A Ana Taveras came to a few in the
4 beginning.
5 Q Did she make any recommendations for
6 changes that should be implemented?
7 A Yes. At staff meetings, not at
8 Executive Board meetings, sure.
9 Q Did you still conduct general
10 membership meetings?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Did the Supervisor or Deputy
13 Supervisor attend any of these Board meetings?
14 A Ana Taveras was there a few times.
15 Q Did there come a time when
16 suggestions or recommendations were made to change
17 Business Agents?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Do you recall when that happened?
20 A Probably right after. There was a
21 survey that was sent out right after we started
22 the supervision process, an anonymous survey to
23 membership. We had no input into it, no part of
24 it.
25 I believe Pat Byrne and Ana Taveras
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2 were doing it and it was, you know, general survey
3 questions on membership like are you happy with
4 your service, tell us what you feel about the
5 union, your agent, what don't you like.
6 They were general good questions, a
7 survey and all and it was sent out anonymously
8 with confidentiality and stuff.
9 You could either have a choice -- I
10 believe you had a choice to either sign or not
11 sign it, but at the time I think it was spring of
12 2003 and we had a meeting. Pat Byrne brought to
13 our attention that the survey results were back
14 and at the time he brought a graph which was pie
15 type graph and showed like good, bad, indifferent,
16 whatever.
17 And I believe at the time maybe our
18 membership was anywhere in the range of 3,000 and
19 if I am not mistaken approximately 325, right
20 around there came back and out of 325 maybe 120 or
21 125 were unfavorable.
22 So when we had the meeting I
23 remember Pat said to me we have problems. I was
24 like what is wrong. Your membership is unhappy.
25 I was like, you know -- when I heard
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2 the numbers I was like there is 125 unhappy. Out
3 of the 125 unfavorable I believe the majority of
4 them had to do with medical claim forms not
5 getting processed on time or my bill is not being
6 paid, and of course the usual some of us getting
7 slammed which is natural.
8 You know, like somebody has a
9 grievance you didn't do the right thing in their
10 eyes, you didn't resolve it the way they wanted
11 to, so naturally.
12 But my point being the numbers when
13 I looked at it, I was like trying to do the pie in
14 my mind and it just showed 325 here. So when it
15 was broken down it was like 125 looked big in my
16 mind. I am doing a pie of 3,000 members and the
17 slice of pie that came back was this big and out
18 of that the slice was this.
19 The way I looked at it, we have
20 always had membership problems. We have them
21 today. That is the name of the game with this. I
22 mean you have 105 different collective bargaining
23 agreements, 3,000 different members. It is
24 diversified throughout.
25 So anyway, naturally we wanted to
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2 address the unfavorable situation and the
3 so-called problems that we were having and I don't
4 know if it was at this meeting, but I know another
5 time meeting in his office and he brought to my
6 attention that Frank got slammed in the survey.
7 Q Who is Frank?
8 A Well, it was Frank Pernice, but
9 those were the words. I said what happened. He
10 said, well, they were unfavorable, everybody was
11 unfavorable on his end and he got slammed with
12 some of the members and stuff.
13 Q You did not see any of the members'
14 responses?
15 A No.
16 Q You just saw the report?
17 A Yes.
18 Q What the responses were?
19 A Yes.
20 Q What happened with Frank Pernice?
21 A Well, I think it was like I said
22 spring, early summer. Frank, I don't know what
23 his age was at the time, whether he was 64 or he
24 was 65 already.
25 Pat had asked me, said he is close
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2 to retirement, maybe he should look into putting
3 his papers in or why don't you check with, I don't
4 know if he said Fritzsch or whatever or the
5 Trustees, but why don't you check and see because
6 Frank used to work for the Funds at one time.
7 Why don't you check with the Funds
8 and see if maybe he can go back and work with the
9 Funds, take a job with the Funds until he retires
10 because he was getting close and I think Frank had
11 mentioned sooner or later he would put his papers
12 in.
13 Q What did you do with that
14 suggestion?
15 A Well, Frank being one of my guys,
16 the first person I talked to was Frank. I didn't
17 talk to the Executive Board Trustees, John
18 Fritzsch or anybody. I wanted to give him the
19 courtesy of saying, Frank, we have to talk.
20 Q What did Frank say?
21 A He wasn't happy with the situation.
22 He especially wasn't happy with the choices.
23 Frank is a proud guy. I have known him for a long
24 time.
25 I met Frank in the labor unions in
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2 Local 31 at one time and it was more like Frank
3 was more preoccupied hearing the words, you know,
4 the membership slammed you. After that I said we
5 have to get down to business here. How do you
6 feel about this and all.
7 Q Did he indicate a willingness to
8 retire?
9 A That was like back and forth for a
10 couple of weeks. Yes, I am. No, I am not. F
11 this, I am out of here, and then the next day, you
12 know what, I think I will wait a week or two or
13 whatever.
14 And then to the best of my
15 recollection the thing about going to work for the
16 Funds was still looming in the air. I had thrown
17 that option out at both him and John at the same
18 time.
19 Q What happened with the Welfare and
20 Pension position?
21 A Well, subsequently he resigned and
22 he went to work for Pension and Welfare. I
23 believe in the capacity as the Pension
24 Investigator and other odd jobs with Welfare,
25 handing out educational stuff or Welfare material.
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2 Q Did that create a vacancy in the
3 ranks of the business reps?
4 A Yes, it did.
5 Q Was that position filled?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Who hired that business
8 representative?
9 A I did. The Executive Board and
10 myself.
11 Q Well, who was hired?
12 A Rhina Molina.
13 Q How did you find Rhina Molina?
14 A Rhina Molina was an organizer. I
15 believe her title was organizer with LEROF.
16 Q Who recommended her to you?
17 A That would have been Pat Byrne.
18 Q Was anyone else considered?
19 A Not on that side, on my side, and
20 the Executive Board said yes because
21 traditionally, historically we have always -- any
22 time like this I have always have shop stewards,
23 guys that work on contracts that are really
24 like -- because we have a tough time having people
25 get involved, but there are guys out there, a
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2 couple of them were here this past hearing,
3 yesterday and the other time.
4 One guy in particular, Bobby Perez
5 was always saying to me, Mike, if there is ever an
6 opening I know the scope of union, I have been
7 around here for 20 years, I have been a shop
8 steward 20 years.
9 I have been on numerous contract
10 negotiations and he has even voluntarily helped
11 out on organizing drives in the past in the
12 translation end of it because he speaks Spanish
13 and all.
14 I had brought that, I believe I even
15 mentioned it to Pat.
16 Q What did Pat say about Bobby Perez
17 versus Rhina Molina?
18 A It wasn't going to work. I don't
19 know what he said directly. It wasn't yes.
20 Q Why was Rhina Molina hired?
21 A I never asked. I just did what I
22 was instructed.
23 Q You were instructed by whom?
24 A Pat Byrne.
25 Q You hired Rhina Molina?
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2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you hire anybody else?
4 A No. In fact, we had a full-time
5 secretary at the time that was not working out and
6 we had budget problems, concerns, and still to
7 this day and we thought it would be in the best
8 interest of eliminating her job.
9 Q So her job was eliminated?
10 A The secretary's job, yes.
11 And I want to add it was the work,
12 the secretary's work was delegated over to Barbara
13 Brown who is the office manager who would have and
14 has in the past trained anybody that comes in. So
15 she knows everything on our end.
16 So I had suggested to Pat why don't
17 we pay Barbara some type of weekly stipend to do
18 some of our work and all. I think it was prudent
19 and a good idea.
20 Q How often did you see Pat Byrne at
21 the local?
22 A Periodically.
23 Q Were there any regularly scheduled
24 meetings?
25 A Staff meetings on Monday. Well,
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2 they changed. Staff meetings used to be -- they
3 changed several times, so let me think.
4 I believe at one time they were on a
5 Wednesday at 4:00 o'clock down at the Regional
6 Office. So we would see Pat there unless he had
7 something else and maybe Ana would take over that
8 day.
9 Then at other times they have been
10 at the local at different dates also. Maybe
11 Wednesday at 9:00 or whatever. Currently right
12 now they are Mondays at 9:00 a.m.
13 Q Were there weekly staff meetings?
14 A Weekly staff meetings, yes, there
15 were weekly staff meetings.
16 Q Did Pat Byrne attend every one of
17 them?
18 A Not every one.
19 Q A majority of them?
20 A I would say enough of them, sure.
21 Q Did Ana Taveras attend every one of
22 them?
23 A Not every one.
24 Q Did she attend a majority?
25 A Yes, a majority.
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2 Q At those weekly staff meetings did
3 Pat Byrne or Ms. Taveras make suggestions?
4 A Sure.
5 Q Were those implemented?
6 A Absolutely.
7 Q Did you ever get any indication when
8 that the Executive Board was failing to follow the
9 advice of Pat Byrne or Ana Taveras?
10 A Regarding?
11 Q Anything going on with the union.
12 A No.
13 Q Did the local have to pay Pat
14 Byrne's salary?
15 A No.
16 Q Did it have to pay Ana Taveras'
17 salary?
18 A No.
19 Q Now, are you aware if the
20 International has a policy regarding auditing
21 local unions?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Do you know what that policy is?
24 A I don't know what the policy is per
25 se, but I do know that the International auditor,
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2 you know, made frequent visits to the local.
3 Q Can you tell me when he made those
4 visits?
5 A Well, the International auditor
6 would be John Conneley from my experience since I
7 have been there, and I would say in my capacity as
8 Business Manager -- let's go back. My capacity as
9 coming on the Executive Board in '96 to current I
10 have had to see John Conneley there at least a
11 half dozen times.
12 Q So from 1996 to 2004 he has been in
13 the unit six times?
14 A I don't know if that was the exact
15 number. I would say that is the ballpark, if not
16 annually.
17 Q Are you aware what he looked at?
18 A Books.
19 Q Books and records of the local?
20 A Yes, of the local union and made
21 recommendations.
22 Q Were his recommendations
23 implemented?
24 A Sure. Variances.
25 Q Did he ever tell you that there was
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2 something wrong?
3 A Not wrong, recommendations.
4 Throughout at various times he would tell us
5 recommendations that you should be doing this and
6 that.
7 You need to write the International
8 for a variance for this. You need to back
9 yourself up with this and all, but not in the
10 words as you are doing something wrong, no, not in
11 that vein.
12 Q Did he review the salaries of all
13 the employees in the union?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Did he review the accounting
16 statements that were prepared by the union's
17 accountants?
18 A Yes.
19 Q He found nothing wrong?
20 A Not in those words.
21 Q Has any other agency came in and
22 looked at books and records of the union and/or
23 the Funds?
24 A Early on. I was not on the
25 Executive Board. This is during the period where
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2 I was maybe just hired in '93 -- well, I was maybe
3 I was office manager or in the dues department,
4 but during that period I do remember that the
5 Department of Labor was in, the Department of
6 Justice, the IRS, even the Post Office for
7 whatever reason at one time. I remember a Post
8 Office Agent or whatever, but, yes, at different
9 times.
10 In fact, I don't know this for a
11 fact, but I would imagine with all these agencies
12 coming in I think the Inspector General's office
13 also.
14 Q Do you know if they looked at the
15 union's books and records?
16 A I would imagine. The only thing I
17 could say is they looked at everything.
18 Q Did they look at the Pension and
19 Welfare records?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Do you know if they found any
22 wrongdoing?
23 A I know one of the agencies, I
24 remember we had all hands on deck. We were
25 working day and night making copies. One of the
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2 agencies removed every single original out of
3 there.
4 We handed everything over. They had
5 trucks and hand trucks and they occupied the
6 office upstairs. The Local 734 is in a two-story
7 office building and we had allocated an office
8 upstairs, a room for them where they had boxes of
9 stuff.
10 And I know that myself and the
11 office staff were copying originals, making
12 duplicates of everything and handing it over.
13 So I know that at one point, and
14 again I don't know what agency it was, I would bet
15 it would probably be the Department of Justice or
16 Labor. They had removed everything out of there.
17 Q Do you know if there were any
18 charges, be it civil or criminal were brought
19 against any individual who worked for the union?
20 A Yes, one individual in the early
21 '90's.
22 Q As a result of this audit?
23 A No. It was not as a result of that.
24 It was something else.
25 Q As a result of the investigation of
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2 the Department of Labor, the Department of
3 Justice, the Post Office, the IRS, the Inspector
4 General, were there any wrongdoings found?
5 A No.
6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Could
7 you tell me the demand for the
8 examination of the records what year
9 are you talking about?
10 THE WITNESS: I would say
11 maybe like '92 to '95. Around there.
12 THE HEARING OFFICER: I
13 thought it was more recent.
14 THE WITNESS: No. '92 to '95.
15 In fact, I would say early to
16 mid-'90's.
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
18 (A short recess was taken at
19 this time.)
20 (The deposition resumed with
21 all parties present.)
22 M I C H A E L R O S A D O, resumed, and
23 testified further as follows:
24 BY MR. LEDER:
25 Q Mr. Rosado, besides the Lambert
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2 Furniture organizing campaign, have there been any
3 other successful organization of members during
4 the supervision?
5 A No.
6 I just want to reiterate Lambert was
7 not an organizing campaign. It was a location
8 they solicited. It was workers at a plant that
9 solicited a union and somebody else handed it over
10 to us and we just -- not us, but the organizers
11 went there and got the cards signed.
12 It wasn't an active campaign, but
13 outside that venue not to my knowledge, no.
14 Q Were the Local 734 Business Agents
15 able to organize any employees during the
16 supervision?
17 A Yes. Tim Fritzsch organized a shop
18 known as Jersey Digital.
19 I organized a fine cleaning shop
20 known as Kyle Construction, approximately seven
21 full-time members and we have been actively doing
22 that throughout our supervision.
23 We didn't stop doing anything that
24 we were doing prior to supervision and that is
25 and, you know, we always file organizing reports
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2 as backup.
3 I was stringent on that, that you
4 have backup on targets and all, but our focus and
5 we were instructed by Pat to focus more of the
6 agents to focus more on small shops. 20 and under
7 and so and, you know, the organizers or LEROF
8 would handle big venues which was fine with us
9 because we were balancing our normal day job
10 duties.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: What is
12 a smallest shop you would go for?
13 THE WITNESS: What would I
14 consider a small job?
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: Fifteen and
17 down.
18 THE HEARING OFFICER: What is
19 your cutoff?
20 THE WITNESS: With us?
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: We have had
23 shops with three people, two people.
24 Q Were you able to organize the shop
25 you were trying to organize?
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2 A Was I able to, yes.
3 Q Jersey Digital, was Mr. Fritzsch
4 able to negotiate a contract with them?
5 A Yes.
6 Q How many members were there?
7 A Seven to ten. I know the venue is
8 not a big venue.
9 Q I am going to turn your attention to
10 the issues regarding the Pension and Welfare.
11 Did Mr. Pocino come to you
12 concerning the Trustees on the Pension and
13 Welfare?
14 A In what regard?
15 Q About the composition of the
16 Trustees.
17 A Yes.
18 Q That was in?
19 A December of '03, I believe.
20 Q What did Mr. Pocino tell you?
21 A You know, I met with Ray throughout
22 supervision. I have always met with Ray, several
23 times at his office just to update him on things
24 and vice versa and this was not out of the
25 ordinary.
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2 Ray requested I come down to see him
3 and I did and like I said, I believe this was
4 December of '03. We met in his office and we were
5 talking about supervision, amongst other things,
6 and the conversation turned toward the addition of
7 an extra Trustee on both ends, on the employer end
8 and on the employee end, on the union end.
9 Q Did he tell you why he wanted an
10 additional Trustee?
11 A I didn't ask Mr. Pocino. I was
12 ready to take instructions and he did give me a
13 reason and the best of my recollection was that
14 coming out of supervision sometime in the future,
15 which would be October of '04, we want to make
16 sure that everything is running on the up and up
17 and, you know, again it would be in the best
18 interest of everybody.
19 Q He did not tell you who the
20 additional Trustee would be?
21 A On the union end, Pat Byrne.
22 Q Did he tell you who would be the
23 additional Trustee on the employee end?
24 A No.
25 Q Was that discussed?
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2 A I had some comments on that.
3 Historically it's always been a difficult spot to
4 fill.
5 Q Why was that?
6 A Well, it comes before my time or
7 maybe the beginning of my time, but I was told
8 usually nobody wants the responsibility, the
9 fiduciary responsibility, the time, but I think
10 that it's more on the responsibility end than
11 anything.
12 Q Besides talking about the additional
13 Trustees, did any other matters come up?
14 A At that time not to my recollection,
15 no.
16 Q Was there discussion about the
17 operational audit in December of 2003?
18 A I don't recall. I don't recall if
19 there was any mention of the audit. I don't
20 recall.
21 Q What did you do after your meeting
22 with Ray concerning the additional Trustees?
23 A Well, what I did with everything
24 else. It was a request and I brought it back.
25 You know, that would be the Fund Administrator,
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2 the Trustees. I brought it back to everyone and
3 the Executive Board.
4 Q When did you first discuss it with
5 the Executive Board?
6 A That would have been at the
7 Executive Board meeting of January or possibly, I
8 am sorry, the Executive Board meeting of December
9 because I believe we met in early December.
10 So it would probably be the
11 Executive Board meeting of December and with the
12 Trustees I am sure it was just a phone call.
13 Usually anything to do I would
14 address it with John Fritzsch, the Fund
15 administrator, and then he would make proper phone
16 calls or whatever to either Sal Salerno, Lou
17 Calastro.
18 Q What was the Executive Board's
19 reaction to adding one Employee Trustee and
20 Employer Trustee?
21 A A shrug of the shoulder, okay.
22 Q Did you indicate to the Executive
23 Board that Pat Byrne would be the Trustee?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Traditionally who has been the Union
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2 Trustee. Who has been the Union Trustees?
3 A Myself and Joe Gambardella.
4 Q Both of you were elected officers?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Both of you were Business Agents,
7 business representatives?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Has that traditionally who have been
10 the Union Trustees?
11 A What I have seen, yes.
12 Q Did you get a reaction from the
13 Board of Trustees concerning the additional
14 Trustees?
15 A Yes.
16 Q What was that reaction?
17 A Questioning the why of it. What is
18 the purpose of this. You guys have nothing to do
19 with us type of thing.
20 Q Did that discussion take place at a
21 meeting of the Board of Trustees?
22 A Well, I mean, yes, but prior to that
23 I know I had heard of it from John Fritzsch.
24 Q Did you ever speak to Mr. Calastro
25 or Mr. Salerno about it?
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2 A Yes.
3 Q What was their reaction?
4 A Mike, why do you need this done, and
5 I said that it's a request from my Regional
6 Office.
7 Q Did you ever discuss it with
8 Mr. Gambardella?
9 A Yes.
10 Q What was his reaction?
11 A Okay.
12 Q Did there come a time in April when
13 you reported to Mr. Pocino about the resistance to
14 adding the Trustee on each side?
15 A Well, it was brought to my attention
16 that, I believe there was a Trust Agreement.
17 There were certain parameters in it, that it would
18 have to be amended and modified and the easier,
19 softer way to go about this might be, hey, listen,
20 why don't you go back and talk to Ray and just see
21 if Joey will step down and Pat will take his place
22 and then we will keep it two and two and life goes
23 on.
24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who said
25 that?
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2 THE WITNESS: The Trustees.
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who said
4 take it back to Ray and Gambardella
5 will step down, was that Calastro?
6 THE WITNESS: That would be
7 John Fritzsch, Lou Calastro and Sal
8 Salerno, and I would have to say
9 myself also.
10 THE HEARING OFFICER: But they
11 are the management that said that we
12 don't need this?
13 THE WITNESS: They were
14 questioning the why. What is the
15 reason for this. You guys, the local
16 is under supervision. Were you told
17 what the reason for this would be.
18 And my answer was just as it
19 was presented to me, just it is in the
20 best interest of everyone, the local
21 membership, everyone.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: You
23 mentioned Mr. Fritzsch. That John
24 Fritzsch, the Administrator of the
25 Fund and this was,I assume was at some
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2 meeting.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes. It was
4 brought to my attention, again I don't
5 know whether it was the January
6 Trustee meeting. It probably was the
7 January Trustee meeting. It was
8 brought to my attention, Mike, don't
9 forget the Trust Agreement would have
10 to be amended or modified and it calls
11 for just two and two.
12 Wouldn't it be simpler and I
13 even chimed in because I don't know if
14 it was my idea or whatever, I am not
15 going to lay claim to that, but I know
16 I was on board with just getting this
17 done. It was like I don't care how we
18 do it, let's just do it.
19 BY MR. LEDER:
20 Q Did you report that to Mr. Pocino in
21 April of 2004?
22 A I don't know if it was in April of
23 2004. I am sure it was -- I don't think I would
24 wait until April, but I am sure it was sometime
25 after that.
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2 Q What was Mr. Pocino's reaction?
3 A It was favorable.
4 Q Did there come a point in time when
5 Lou Calastro indicated that he wanted to meet with
6 Mr. Pocino?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did you convey that to Mr. Pocino?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Do you know if, in fact, that
11 occurred?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Do you recall that meeting was in
14 May of 2004 on the 26th?
15 A Yes.
16 Q After that meeting between Ray and
17 Lou Calastro, did you speak to Mr. Pocino about
18 what went on in that meeting?
19 A No, not in detail.
20 Q Did you speak to Mr. Byrne about
21 what went on in that meeting?
22 A No.
23 Q Did you speak to Mr. Calastro about
24 what went on in that meeting?
25 A Yes.
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2 Q What did Mr. Calastro tell you?
3 A I remember Mr. Calastro saying they
4 met because I was the one that requested they both
5 get together. He called me up afterwards, whether
6 it was the same day or the day after, said I had a
7 very good meeting, a good lunch.
8 Ray is a good guy, an honorable man.
9 They just talked about their families and talked
10 about business, first of all.
11 Q Did there come a time when you
12 talked about Pat coming to a meeting?
13 A Not during this conversation, no.
14 Q Subsequently did Pat indicate that
15 he was going to come to a meeting?
16 A Absolutely.
17 Q Do you recall what meeting he was
18 going to