Chicago Laborers DC Trusteeship Transcripts 10-21-1997

 
	1        OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER
	2      LABORERS' INTERNATIONAL UNION OF NORTH AMERICA
	3 
	4   IN RE:		    	   )
	5   TRUSTEESHIP PROCEEDINGS        ) No. 97-30T
	6   CHICAGO DISTRICT COUNCIL       )
	7 
	8 
	9 
	10	    TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS had in the
	11   above-entitled cause at the Days Inn Hotel, 644
	12   North Lake Shore Drive, Chicago, Illinois, on the
	13   21st day of October, A.D. 1997, at 9:35 a.m.
	14 
	15 
	16   BEFORE:  MR. PETER F. VAIRA, Hearing Officer
	17 
	18 
	19 
	20 
	21 
	22 
	23 
	24

 
	1   PRESENT:
	2 
	3        COMEY, BOYD & LUSKIN,
	4        (1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W.,
	5        Washington, D.C. 20007-5243), by:
	6        MR. DWIGHT P. BOSTWICK,
	7	    appeared on behalf of the GEB Attorney;
	8 
	9        CARMELL, CHARONE, WIDMER, MATHEWS & MOSS,
	10        LTD.,
	11        (225 West Washington Street, Suite 1000,
	12        Chicago, Illinois  60606), by:
	13        MR. SHERMAN CARMELL,
	14        MS. SUZANNE M. LAW,
	15	    appeared on behalf of the Chicago
	16	    District Council of Laborers;
	17 
	18 
	19 
	20 
	21 
	22 
	23 
	24

 
	1   PRESENT: (Cont'd)
	2

	3        EARL L. NEAL & ASSOCIATES,
	4        (111 West Washington Street, Suite 1700,
	5        Chicago, Illinois 60602), by:
	6        MR. GEORGE N. LEIGHTON,
	7	        -and-
	8        FARACI & FARACI, P.A.
	9        (111 West Washington Street, Suite 1720,
	10        Chicago, Illinois 60602), by:
	11        MR. PETER S. FARACI,
	12	    appeared on behalf of John A.
	13	    Matassa, Jr.
	14 
	15   ALSO PRESENT:
	16        MS. LAURIE HARTMAN
	17 
	18   REPORTED BY:  MARY KAY BELCOLORE, CSR, RPR.
	19	       DONNA S. PAPPAS, CSR, RPR.
	20 
	21 
	22 
	23 
	24

 
	1	        (WHEREUPON, the witness was duly
	2	        sworn.)
	3	        JOHN A. MATASSA, JR.,
	4   called as a witness herein, having been first duly
	5   sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
	6		DIRECT EXAMINATION
	7   BY MR. CARMELL:
	8        Q.    Please state your name, spell your last
	9   name.
	10        A.    John A. Matassa, Junior, M-A-T-A-S-S-A.
	11        Q.    Your date of birth, please?
	12        A.    6/18/51.
	13        Q.    In the earliest time when you were
	14   growing up, where did you live, Mr. Matassa?
	15        A.    1655 North Nashville Avenue, Chicago.
	16        Q.    What area of the city was that?
	17        A.    It was the west side, Galewood.
	18        Q.    While you were living at the, at that
	19   address in that area, would you tell me any of the
	20   brothers and sisters you had?
	21        A.    One brother and two sisters.
	22        Q.    And in the order, chronological order,
	23   the oldest first, and then including you, what are
	24   the names of your siblings?

 
	1        A.    Siblings?
	2        Q.    Yeah.  That's a new word, John.  I just
	3   thought I'd throw it out.
	4        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Siblings.
	5   BY MR. CARMELL:
	6        Q.    Brothers and sisters.
	7        A.    They are my father's siblings.  They
	8   are not mine, counselor.
	9        Q.    That's right.
	10        A.    I'm the oldest.  Then there is another
	11   son, Anthony, a sister Candace, and other sister
	12   Mary Ann.
	13        Q.    And where did you go to grammar school?
	14        A.    Saint John's in Oak Park.
	15        Q.    Did all of your family attend parochial
	16   school?
	17        A.    Yes, they did.
	18        Q.    Is there any particular reason why they
	19   went to parochial rather than public school?
	20        A.    I was five years old when I started
	21   kindergarten.  And that's, I didn't think I had
	22   much choice in the matter.
	23        Q.    Was the family religious?
	24        A.    Yes, they were.

 
	1        Q.    Did all your brothers and sisters
	2   attend parochial schools?
	3        A.    Yes, they did.
	4        Q.    And how long did you stay at that
	5   parochial school?
	6        A.    I was there for eight years.
	7        Q.    And then went to high school?
	8        A.    Yes, I did.
	9        Q.    Where did you go to high school?
	10        A.    Holy Cross High School in River Grove.
	11        Q.    And River Grove was a substantial
	12   distance from your home, is that correct?
	13        A.    I believe it's about five miles.
	14        Q.    And did you complete high school there
	15   at Holy Cross?
	16        A.    Yes, I did.
	17        Q.    And during the time you were in high
	18   school, were there any activities, sports, social
	19   activities, clubs that you belonged to?
	20        A.    Yes, I played baseball and football for
	21   Holy Cross.
	22        Q.    And after you left high school, you
	23   graduated, where did you go?
	24        A.    I went to Triton College for two years.

 
	1        Q.    And is that a full-time college or a
	2   junior college?
	3        A.    It's a full-time college now.  It was a
	4   junior then.
	5        Q.    And what types of subjects did you take
	6   at Triton?
	7        A.    Business.
	8        Q.    And did you participate in any
	9   activities, social or sports, or fraternities or
	10   anything like that?
	11        A.    Not really.
	12        Q.    And after you completed the two years
	13   at Triton College, what did you do?
	14        A.    While I was at Triton College, I worked
	15   part time out at the airport for Schulman Air
	16   Freight, and when I completed the two years, I
	17   went to work there full time.
	18        Q.    And what job did you have when you
	19   began to work full time at Schulman Air Freight?
	20        A.    It was numerous jobs, they were called
	21   combination men, sorting freight out, picking up
	22   containers, routing trucks.  I held numerous
	23   positions there over a period of nine years.
	24        Q.    During the entire period of nine years,

 
	1   did your job at least involve in part physical
	2   labor?
	3        A.    Yes, it did.
	4        Q.    And what position did you hold when you
	5   left Schulman Air Freight after nine years?
	6        A.    I injured my knee and I was on
	7   disability, I was having therapy, I couldn't go
	8   back to driving, and I went to work for the City
	9   of Chicago part time.
	10        Q.    While you were at Schulman, were you a
	11   member of any labor union?
	12        A.    Yes, I was.
	13        Q.    What union was that?
	14        A.    Chicago Truck Drivers Independent
	15   Union, 705.
	16        Q.    Now, just -- there are two 705s,
	17   there's 705 affiliated with the Teamsters and then
	18   there was what you call Chicago Truck Drivers
	19   Union, which was an independent 705.  And you were
	20   the independent, is that correct?
	21        A.    That's correct.
	22        Q.    Did you hold any position with CTDU
	23   while you were at Schulman?
	24        A.    Yes, I did.

 
	1        Q.    What position or positions did you
	2   hold?
	3        A.    I was a steward there for five years.
	4        Q.    And what did your duties involve?
	5        A.    Enforcing the contract.
	6        Q.    Did you handle grievances?
	7        A.    Yes, I did.
	8        Q.    Did you attend union meetings?

	9        A.    Yes, I did.
	10        Q.    Did you attend them on a regular basis?
	11        A.    Yes, I did.
	12        Q.    Is there anything about having attended
	13   the union meetings as business steward that
	14   appealed to you?
	15        A.    Well, I thought it was an interesting
	16   field and I was friendly with the business agent
	17   out there, Bob Novack, and the vice president,
	18   Barney Keegan, and my uncle was the
	19   secretary-treasurer of that union for 25 years.
	20        Q.    And your uncle's name?
	21        A.    Louis Matassa.
	22        Q.    Now, after you injured your knee, you
	23   said you then went to work for the City of
	24   Chicago.  Will you tell the Hearing Officer how

 
	1   you got there and what job you had?
	2        A.    In 1976, I believe, May, there was a
	3   primary election coming up and I was helping Vito
	4   Marzullo and Marco D'Amico of the 25th Ward.
	5        Q.    Stop for a moment, if you would.  Who
	6   was Vito Marzullo?
	7        A.    20th Ward alderman.
	8        Q.    Democratic party?
	9        A.    Yes.
	10        Q.    And Marco D'Amico?
	11        A.    He was the committeeman, I believe --
	12   or Mr. Marzullo was the committeeman.  Marco was
	13   the alderman at the time.
	14        Q.    Please go ahead.
	15        A.    Well, I would help them on election
	16   day.  We would meet, you know, at 5:00 and go out
	17   and make sure that they got the votes and
	18   everything, and then after the election,
	19   Mr. Marzullo asked me if I wanted a part-time job
	20   with the City.
	21        Q.    And what did you say?
	22        A.    I said, well, sure.
	23        Q.    And what job did Mr. Marzullo get for
	24   you?

 
	1        A.    He was the chairman of the Committee on
	2   Transportation.
	3        Q.    And what position did you have with
	4   that committee?
	5        A.    Inspector, I believe they called it.
	6        Q.    And what did your job -- what were your
	7   job duties?
	8        A.    Our job duties were to fill out sheets
	9   on a daily basis on different routes, bus routes.
	10   I was assigned primarily, I was there for about
	11   nine years, to Belmont and Harlem Avenue.
	12        Q.    Would you describe what your duties
	13   were, how you performed them?
	14        A.    Well, I would sit in the car, about 5
	15   a.m., the hours were from about 5 to 7:30, and
	16   write the numbers down on the buses and estimate
	17   how many people and then turn those reports into
	18   my supervisor on a weekly basis and then they
	19   would -- I guess they would have meetings to
	20   determine if they needed more buses on the routes
	21   or not.
	22        Q.    So you were there to see approximately
	23   how many passengers would get on a particular bus
	24   at an area, that was it?

 
	1        A.    How many would be on there, you know,
	2   total, how many would get on, you know, the total
	3   number, how many they would pick up because the
	4   immediate -- or the stop, the turnaround was on
	5   Cumberland and Belmont, which is about 10 blocks
	6   away.
	7        Q.    These are buses which we now know as
	8   the Chicago Transit Authority buses, is that
	9   right?
	10        A.    That's correct.
	11        Q.    And what were the hours that you
	12   worked?
	13        A.    The hours were from 5 a.m. until 7:30.
	14        Q.    And did you have any other job during
	15   that time?
	16        A.    No, sir, I did not.
	17        MR. BOSTWICK:  Excuse me.  Have you asked the
	18   time period here?
	19        MR. CARMELL: He began in -- go ahead.
	20        THE WITNESS:  1976.
	21   BY MR. CARMELL:
	22        Q.    And how long did you hold this
	23   part-time job?
	24        A.    I believe it was about nine years.

 
	1        Q.    Now, during the time that you were
	2   working at Schulman Air Freight and that you were
	3   working with the City of Chicago, were you living
	4   at the same address?
	5        A.    Yes, I was living at 1655 North
	6   Nashville, when I was in college, and then later
	7   on, a few years later, I bought a three-flat at
	8   2111 Natchez, which was about six blocks from my
	9   mother's house.
	10        Q.    And was your father, when did your
	11   father die?
	12        A.    He died in May, 1976.
	13        Q.    And up until the time that you
	14   purchased the three-flat, you lived at home, is
	15   that correct?
	16        A.    That's correct.
	17        Q.    Now, you purchased a three-flat and you
	18   lived in one of the flats?
	19        A.    I was there for about a year.  And then
	20   I continued to own it and rented it out.  I went
	21   back home.
	22        Q.    So during the time, did there come a
	23   time when you were working for the City of Chicago
	24   that you left home permanently, or were you there

 
	1   during the entire period?
	2        A.    Well, there came a time that I left.
	3        Q.    Approximately when was that?
	4        A.    I believe it was in the early '80s,
	5   late '70s.
	6        Q.    And where did you go?  Where did you
	7   live?
	8        A.    I had a condominium in Elmwood Park on
	9   North Avenue.
	10        Q.    Now, during the time that you worked
	11   for the City of Chicago transportation committee,
	12   were you a member of any union at that time?
	13        A.    Not with the city.
	14        Q.    All right.  Now, after you finished
	15   with the city, where did you go to work?
	16        A.    After, I, well, I was working for the
	17   Laborers Union, Laborers' International Union.
	18        Q.    All right.  What was the reason for
	19   your leaving the City of Chicago job?
	20        A.    I left the City of Chicago job I
	21   believe in 1985 or '86.  It was beginning to be
	22   too much.  Alderman Marzullo died.  And they
	23   transferred committees to Alderman Huels.
	24        Q.    All right.  And did you leave

 
	1   voluntarily?
	2        A.    Yes, I did.
	3        Q.    And then what did you do?
	4        A.    I kept working on my job at Local 2.
	5        Q.    All right.  When did you first become
	6   affiliated with Laborers' International Union?
	7        A.    It was in April, 1985.
	8        Q.    And would you tell the Hearing Officer
	9   how you got to Local 2, and what your position
	10   was?
	11        A.    I was a field rep for Local 2.  James
	12   Fosco, who was the president, was a neighbor of
	13   ours in Galewood.  And I ran into Jimmy at
	14   Galewood Barber Shop.  I went to school with his
	15   daughters.  And he was going in the hospital for a
	16   hernia operation.
	17	    And I guess some people had retired at
	18   the time from the Local.  And he asked me to stop
	19   in after he got out of the hospital, that he
	20   wanted to talk to me about employment.
	21        Q.    And did you talk to James Fosco?
	22        A.    I did.  I went to see him, as a matter
	23   of fact, the day before he passed away in the
	24   hospital.  And I met him there, and Dom

 
	1   Christopher was there.
	2        Q.    Who was Dom Christopher?
	3        A.    Mr. Christopher was the
	4   secretary/treasurer of Local 2.
	5        Q.    Had you known Dom Christopher before
	6   that time?
	7        A.    No, sir.
	8        Q.    And where did that meeting take place?
	9        A.    At the Galewood Barber Shop on North
	10   Avenue.
	11        Q.    What happened at that meeting?
	12        A.    Well, that's the first time that I had
	13   met Mr. Christopher.  And I've known Jimmy Fosco.
	14   Then when I went to the hospital, Oak Park
	15   Hospital, I went to visit him the day before he
	16   got operated on.  And he said he would be out in a
	17   few days, you know, to stop by the house.
	18	    And the following day, when they went
	19   to operate on him, he died of a heart attack on
	20   the table.
	21        Q.    And what happened with your potential
	22   job with the, with Local 2 after that?
	23        A.    Well, Jimmy died, I believe it was
	24   Wednesday afternoon.  And Friday night, I was at

 
	1   Galewood Funeral Home on West Harlem Avenue.  And
	2   I ran into Mr. Christopher there.  And he said,
	3   don't leave, I want to talk to you.  And he told
	4   me, come in the office, you know, Monday morning;
	5   I want to talk to you about coming to work.
	6	    I said, well, Dominick, you know, I
	7   said, you don't have to worry about me.  He said,
	8   no, no, Jimmy wanted you there, so just come in; I
	9   want to talk to you.  And I went there the
	10   following Monday, I believe it was April 8th.
	11        Q.    Of 1985?
	12        A.    Yes, sir.
	13        Q.    What position did you have at that
	14   time?
	15        A.    Well, he hired me as a field
	16   representative.
	17        Q.    Tell the Hearing Officer what you did
	18   as a field rep for Local 2 when you were hired.
	19        A.    Well, for the first two months, I was
	20   in the office learning the office procedures.  And
	21   after that, I went on the street and other
	22   business agents, and signed up members.
	23        Q.    Would you explain to the Hearing
	24   Officer both the geographic and work jurisdiction

 
	1   of Local 2, what the members do, where they work?
	2        A.    The jurisdiction of Local 2 was all
	3   Cook and Lake County, all underground work.
	4        Q.    Would you explain in a little more
	5   detail what underground work is?
	6        A.    Well, the Deep Tunnel project, open cut
	7   sewer work.  We also represented Cook County
	8   Highway Department laborers, people at the
	9   hospital, and the Chicago Park District laborers.
	10        Q.    So Local 2 has jurisdiction over both
	11   private and public employees?
	12        A.    That's correct.
	13        Q.    And it has jurisdiction over all
	14   underground work in Cook and Lake Counties, is
	15   that correct?
	16        A.    That's correct.
	17        Q.    All right.  Now, what did you actually
	18   do after you left the office and went out onto the
	19   street as far as your duties as a field rep?
	20        A.    Stopped in the jobs, through the Dodge
	21   reports, check union cards, sometimes collect the
	22   dues.  Majority of the contractors were on dues
	23   deduction.
	24        Q.    Did you handle any, let's call them

 
	1   grievances, any issues?
	2        A.    Yes.
	3        Q.    And during the time that you were a
	4   field rep, how much time would you spend in the
	5   office and how much time would you spend out on
	6   the field?
	7        A.    We would meet at the office every
	8   morning about 9:00.
	9        Q.    And where was the office located?
	10        A.    It was located on Fullerton Avenue and
	11   Central, the original office.
	12        Q.    And did the office move subsequently?
	13        A.    The office moved about seven years ago.
	14        Q.    Where to?
	15        A.    Diversey Avenue, across the street from
	16   the District Council.
	17        Q.    How many members does Local 2 have?
	18        A.    About 1250.
	19        Q.    Now, in your duties as a field rep,
	20   after you would report to the office in the
	21   morning -- that would be about what time?
	22        A.    9:00.
	23        Q.    And then what would you do?
	24        A.    We would go on and go out on the jobs.

 
	1        Q.    And would you return to the office in a
	2   regular day?
	3        A.    Yes.
	4        Q.    Approximately what time?
	5        A.    Well, if the jobs were close, we would
	6   come back about 12:30, and go have lunch with Mr.
	7   Christopher and Mr. DiSylvio,
	8   secretary/treasurer.  Then we would either go back
	9   out in the field, and come back about 3:30; that
	10   is what time we close the office.  Except on
	11   Saturdays; Saturdays, we were there from 9 until
	12   1:00.  We were open on Saturdays.
	13        Q.    So the duties of the field rep were six
	14   days a week, or five-and-a-half actually?
	15        A.    Well, not really.  Those tunnel
	16   projects go around the clock.  So there was many
	17   times that we would have to go out and visit the
	18   jobs at night.  And the utility contractors can't
	19   work in the City of Chicago until after 7:00 at
	20   night.  So when we had a utility contractor
	21   working downtown, we couldn't go until 7, 8:00 at
	22   night.
	23        Q.    Let's give the Hearing Officer, if we
	24   can, an example.  If the utility contractor is

 
	1   going to do some work in the City of Chicago, why
	2   would you go down there as a field rep?
	3        A.    To visit the job site, and to see if
	4   anybody was behind on their dues, if there was any
	5   new members to sign up; and basically, to make
	6   sure that, you know, everything was okay.
	7	    If they were doing open cut work down
	8   there, it was our job to make sure that they had
	9   proper shoring, so nobody would get hurt.
	10        Q.    What is an open cut --
	11        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Safety, safety
	12   investigation?
	13        THE WITNESS:  Safety.
	14	    And it's a very common practice that
	15   people do get, you know.
	16        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Just one minute.  We
	17   are having a technical difficulty back here.
	18	        (WHEREUPON, discussion was had
	19	        off the record.)
	20   BY MR. CARMELL:
	21        Q.    At the time you came to be employed as
	22   a field representative, James Fosco had just died,
	23   is that correct?
	24        A.    That's correct.

 
	1        Q.    And what position had James Fosco held
	2   with Local 2, as far as you knew?
	3        A.    As far as I know, I believe he was the
	4   president/business manager.
	5        Q.    And Dominick Christopher, what position
	6   did he hold?
	7        A.    Secretary/treasurer.
	8        Q.    Was the position of business manager,
	9   president/business manager, filled after you came

	10   to work?
	11        A.    Yes, sir.
	12        Q.    And who was, who took that position?
	13        A.    Mr. Christopher.
	14        Q.    And how soon after you came to work did
	15   he take that position?
	16        A.    When I went to, when I went there that
	17   Monday, I believe he was already the
	18   president/business manager.  And Mr. DiSylvio was
	19   the secretary/treasurer.
	20        Q.    And did there come a time when you
	21   became a member of the Executive Board of Local 2?
	22        A.    Two years later.
	23        Q.    So that would be approximately 1987, is
	24   that correct?

 
	1        A.    That's correct.
	2        Q.    And what position did you, did you take
	3   on the Board?
	4        A.    Business manager.
	5        Q.    Would you explain to the Hearing
	6   Officer how that came about.
	7        A.    After I was a field rep for, I believe
	8   I needed two years to run for anything in the
	9   union, Mr. Christopher came to me one day and said
	10   that the executive board recommended that I run
	11   for business manager of the local.
	12        Q.    How old was Mr. Christopher at that
	13   time?
	14        A.    I'd have to say he was in his early
	15   60s.
	16        Q.    And what was Mr. Christopher going to
	17   do, what position would he hold with the union
	18   then?
	19        A.    President.
	20        Q.    Did Mr. Christopher tell you or any
	21   member of the board tell you as to why you had
	22   been selected to run for that position?
	23        A.    No, sir.
	24        Q.    And you became business manager in

 
	1   1987, is that correct?
	2        A.    That's correct.
	3        Q.    And what were your duties and how did
	4   your duties change as far as your having been a
	5   field rep when you became the business manager?
	6        A.    Well, my duties as business manager
	7   were to supervise the other field representatives
	8   and I started spending a little more time in the
	9   office.  Even though I was the business manager,
	10   the president of the local was Dominick
	11   Christopher and he remained the boss there until
	12   the day he decided to retire.
	13        Q.    So that although you carried the title
	14   of business manager, the actual authority was with
	15   Mr. Christopher until he left?
	16        A.    Absolutely.
	17        Q.    And when did Mr. Christopher leave?
	18        A.    I believe about six years ago.
	19        Q.    And did the fact that Mr. Christopher
	20   still had the authority, did that continue all the
	21   way through until his death -- until he left?
	22        A.    Oh, absolutely.
	23        Q.    When did you first become a delegate to
	24   the Chicago District Council Laborers'?

 
	1        A.    1987, by virtue of my election as
	2   business manager.
	3        Q.    When did you first become an officer of
	4   the District Council?
	5        A.    Shortly before 1994.
	6        Q.    And had you been on the executive board
	7   of the District Council before you became an
	8   officer?
	9        A.    No, sir.
	10        Q.    So you were a delegate for how long
	11   before you became an officer?
	12        A.    '87 to a couple months prior to the
	13   election in 1994.
	14        Q.    And were you appointed or elected to
	15   the position at first?
	16        A.    At first I was appointed to fulfill a
	17   term that Joe Neroni had.  He died.
	18        Q.    What position did Joe Neroni have?
	19        A.    Vice president.
	20        Q.    And who was the business manager of the
	21   District Council when you were appointed?
	22        A.    Ernest Kumerow.
	23        Q.    And how did you find out that you were
	24   having to be appointed to the position of a

 
	1   vice -- was it vice president?
	2        A.    Yes, sir.
	3        Q.    Of the District Council?
	4        A.    Mr. Kumerow called my office and said
	5   he wanted to speak to me at the District Council.
	6        Q.    Okay.  And did you go there?
	7        A.    Yes, sir, I did.
	8        Q.    At that time, was your -- had your
	9   office moved?
	10        A.    Yes, sir.
	11        Q.    So you were across the street from the
	12   District Council?
	13        A.    Yes, sir.
	14        Q.    All right.
	15        A.    But I wasn't in the office when he
	16   called.
	17        Q.    Right.  But the local -- Local 2's
	18   office was there?
	19        A.    Right.
	20        Q.    You went to the District Council
	21   office, and will you tell the Hearing Officer what
	22   occurred there?
	23        A.    Well, when I went in the office and
	24   Ernie was there with Joey.

 
	1        Q.    Is that Joe Lombardo?
	2        A.    Joe Lombardo, Jr., and I went to have
	3   coffee in the coffee room and they said that they
	4   had an executive board meeting and that they --
	5   they're going to recommend me to fulfill the term
	6   of Joe Neroni who had just passed away.
	7        Q.    And what, if anything, did you say?
	8        A.    I said fine.
	9        Q.    Okay.  And then you stood for election
	10   since that time?
	11        A.    Yes, sir.  I was elected in 1994,
	12   August, I believe.
	13        Q.    Now, Mr. Matassa, there's been a lot of
	14   testimony, or a bit of testimony here concerning
	15   matters with your name.  Before I get into that,
	16   I'd like to discuss with you your views on your
	17   job as now the business manager of Local 2, what
	18   you've done, both as a field rep and as the
	19   business manager and how the local union has been
	20   run.  I'd like you to tell me about what you've
	21   done, what the financial condition of Local 2 is,
	22   how its jurisdiction has been, how the membership
	23   has been since you've been there.
	24        A.    Well, when I first went to work for

 
	1   Local 2, the membership was about 450 people.
	2   They had just completed the first phase of the
	3   Deep Tunnel.  And then work was okay, it wasn't
	4   great, but it was just okay.  You know,
	5   collectively, after I took over, when Dominick
	6   retired, okay, the membership has grown to about
	7   1250, sometimes 1300 people, and we have almost a
	8   million dollars in our treasury.
	9        Q.    Do you spend full time working at Local
	10   2?
	11        A.    Yes, sir, I do.
	12        Q.    And since you have become the -- let's
	13   put it since Mr. Christopher has left, would you
	14   tell what kind of days, the typical days that you
	15   have spent regarding Local 2.
	16        A.    Before these hearings or during these
	17   hearings?
	18        Q.    Yeah, let's try before the hearings.
	19        A.    Our day usually starts about -- my day,
	20   my personal day.
	21        Q.    Yes.  That's what I'm asking about.
	22        A.    Starts about, I get up about 5:30,
	23   quarter to 6 and I'm usually on the street by
	24   7:30.  My first call of the day is to Joe

 
	1   Lombardo, Jr. at the District Council to see
	2   what's going on, and then I usually wind up
	3   at --
	4        Q.    Stop just for a moment.  What do you
	5   mean by to see what's going on?
	6        A.    To see if there's any trouble out there
	7   in the field.  Our membership starts at 7 in the
	8   morning.
	9        Q.    And how would Joe Lombardo or the
	10   District Council know about any problems within
	11   your jurisdiction?
	12        A.    Well, because if there's a problem,
	13   they'll call the District Council.  You know, it's
	14   a known fact that Mr. Lombardo is there at 7 in
	15   the morning to open the doors and start fielding
	16   the problems in the field.
	17        Q.    Okay.  Go ahead.
	18        A.    So I talk to Joey in the morning, you
	19   know, and then usually I'll stop on the job and
	20   then I'll go to my office and, you know, start
	21   going through paperwork, see what's going on, and
	22   then usually I talk to the field reps, you know,
	23   the field reps, they call in, and then depending
	24   on what happens throughout the day, if I have a

 
	1   meeting for a pension or a training meeting, or
	2   whatever, the council, something might happen with
	3   the council, I take it from there.  Typically
	4   they're 10-hour days.
	5        Q.    Now, we've established that you are
	6   president -- strike that -- you are business
	7   manager of Local 2 and you're a vice president of
	8   the Chicago District Council.  Do you hold a
	9   position with any of the training or other funds?
	10        A.    Well, I'm president and business
	11   manager of Local 2.
	12        Q.    Right.
	13        A.    I'm a trustee on the Laborers' pension
	14   fund and I'm also a trustee on the training fund
	15   and a trustee on the LPL fund.
	16        Q.    What is the LPL fund?
	17        A.    Laborers' political fund.
	18        Q.    Do you receive any compensation for
	19   your service as a trustee on the Laborers' pension
	20   fund?
	21        A.    No, sir, I do not.
	22        Q.    Do you receive any compensation for
	23   your services as a trustee on the Laborers'
	24   training fund?

 
	1        A.    No.
	2        Q.    Do you receive any compensation for
	3   your services as a trustee of the LPL fund?
	4        A.    No, sir.
	5        Q.    How often do the trustees of the
	6   pension fund meet?
	7        A.    Once a month.
	8        Q.    Are you on any committee of the pension
	9   fund trustees?
	10        A.    I'm on -- yes, I am.
	11        Q.    Which committee is that?
	12        A.    It's a long-range study committee.
	13        Q.    And how often does that committee meet?
	14        A.    That committee meets once every couple
	15   months.
	16        Q.    And how often do the trustees of the
	17   training fund meet?
	18        A.    Quarterly unless there's a special
	19   meeting called by the chairman, Jerry Kenny.
	20        Q.    And where are those meetings held?
	21        A.    Out in Carol Stream.
	22        Q.    And on the LPL fund, how often do they
	23   meet, the trustees?
	24        A.    Every two weeks.

 
	1        Q.    And where do they meet?
	2        A.    At the Laborers' District Council.
	3        Q.    And how often does the executive board
	4   of Local 2 meet?
	5        A.    Once a month.
	6        Q.    And how often does the membership have
	7   a meeting of Local 2?
	8        A.    We have it every month, and this year
	9   we cancelled June, July and August, the summer
	10   meetings, because I was getting a lot of requests
	11   for people that were going on vacation, weddings
	12   and everything.
	13        Q.    And how often does the executive board
	14   of the District Council meet?
	15        A.    Once a month.
	16        Q.    And the delegates meet once a month?
	17        A.    Yes, that's correct.
	18        Q.    Occasionally are there special meetings
	19   of the executive board of the District Council?
	20        A.    Occasionally.
	21        Q.    So let me sort of recap this as far as
	22   the meetings that you will attend.  You attend the
	23   trustees meeting of the Laborers' pension fund,
	24   the trustees meetings of the training fund, and of

 
	1   the LPL fund, you attend your local union
	2   executive board meetings and membership meetings
	3   and you attend the District Council executive
	4   board meetings and delegates meetings, is that
	5   correct?
	6        A.    That's correct.
	7        Q.    Are there any other LIUNA related
	8   meetings that you attend?
	9        A.    Yes, there is.
	10        Q.    What is that?
	11        A.    Well, if an out-of-town contractor
	12   would come into town, I would attend the pre-job
	13   conference.
	14	    I would, you know, there's
	15   negotiations, which is once every three years.  I
	16   have negotiations along with my other field reps
	17   with the county and the parks.
	18        Q.    Now, I want to get into an area of
	19   discussing what has become nowadays to be called
	20   the word interfacing, but I call it having
	21   business with.
	22	    In your capacity as president and
	23   business manager of Local 2, do you have business
	24   relationships with other locals in the Chicago

 
	1   District Council?
	2        A.    I don't understand what you mean.
	3        Q.    Well, did Local 2 have any business
	4   dealings with other locals of the District
	5   Council, Local 1, Local 2, Local 5, any of those?
	6        A.    What do you mean by business dealings?
	7   I don't understand.
	8        Q.    Do you have to have jurisdiction --
	9   jurisdictional meetings?
	10        A.    Sure.
	11        Q.    Do you have jurisdictional issues?  Do
	12   you have common jobs?
	13        A.    All the time.  Sure, all the time.
	14        Q.    Would you give an example of the kinds
	15   of common issues and problems you will have with
	16   other locals?  And if you could talk about the
	17   locals in particular, if there are any particular
	18   locals.
	19        A.    Well, you have to remember something,
	20   Mr. Carmell.  When they build a building in the
	21   City of Chicago, before they build the building,
	22   the sewers go in.  The sewers go in first.  That
	23   is where we come in.
	24	    These pipeline jobs, we run across

 
	1   counties.  Local 1006, the sewer adjustment, well,
	2   it's our job to make sure that he's doing the
	3   sewer adjustment, not putting in a sewer.  We
	4   interface with the majority of the locals.
	5	    I have some members that are split with
	6   myself and Mr. Bruno Caruso at the park district.
	7   I have some members that are members of Local 2,
	8   and they work for the city.  And they are under
	9   Charlie LoVerde's jurisdiction.  Basically, the
	10   majority of the locals in Cook and Lake County,
	11   that we interface with.  Michael Lazzaratto in
	12   152, we basically split up Lake County.  He's got
	13   certain Lake County contractors.  The Cook County
	14   contractors, they belong to us.  The members
	15   belong to us there.  On every major project, they
	16   have a sewer gang.
	17	    Palumbo does roadwork.  Palumbo has
	18   three sewer gangs.  So I interface with Liberato
	19   Naimoli.  The sewers, you know, they are all over,
	20   so --
	21        Q.    Hopefully.
	22        A.    They have sewers.
	23        Q.    When you said about sewer adjustments
	24   are done by Local 1006, can you sort of

 
	1   differentiate -- I know it becomes difficult at
	2   times -- between the jurisdiction of Local 1006
	3   and local, jurisdiction of Local 2?
	4        A.    Well, 1006 raises the sewers to meet
	5   the pavement.  They adjust the sewers and
	6   everything.  And we see their contractors out
	7   there doing work.  We just want to make sure that
	8   they are not adding those sewers, because if they
	9   do, it belongs to us.
	10        Q.    With respect to, for example, Local
	11   1006, did you have any dealings with Frank Caruso
	12   when he was the business manager?
	13        A.    Yes, I did.
	14        Q.    Under what circumstances would you have
	15   worked along, had interface with Frank Caruso?
	16        A.    Well, when Frank was the business
	17   manager, and you know, his office was in the
	18   Laborers' District Council, I was across the
	19   street.  Frank was out in the field.  And he had
	20   some contractors who were doing sewer adjustments
	21   and everything, and we ran across them.
	22	    And basically, you know, I'd interface
	23   with his local quite a bit.
	24        Q.    Would the same be true of Vince Solano

 
	1   at, or whoever were the business agents or
	2   business reps at Local 1?
	3        A.    Yes, that's correct.
	4        Q.    And how about Local 5?  Did you have
	5   any --
	6        A.    Yes, I had some sewer contractors that
	7   worked out there in their area.
	8        Q.    Now, Mr. Matassa, have you been in the
	9   hearings for the most part during the entire last
	10   four weeks?
	11        A.    Yes, sir.
	12        Q.    I now want to go through with you some
	13   testimony that has come, which has involved you.
	14   And I want to begin with the testimony of Doug --
	15   Mr. Gow, who was the Inspector General, and
	16   testified on July 16th.
	17	    Mr. Matassa, do you have any
	18   association with what has been called here as the
	19   Chicago outfit?
	20        A.    No, sir, I do not.
	21        Q.    Have you ever had an association with
	22   the Chicago outfit?
	23        A.    No, sir.
	24        Q.    Now, I'd like to direct your attention

 
	1   to the testimony of John O'Rourke.  And were you
	2   present when John O'Rourke gave his testimony on
	3   July 17?
	4        A.    Yes, I was.
	5        Q.    I want to direct your attention
	6   specifically to the testimony of John O'Rourke,
	7   that you provided protection to illegal card
	8   games.  Is that true?
	9        A.    That's a complete falsehood.
	10        Q.    Mr. O'Rourke testified with respect to
	11   your having run card games in the State of
	12   Illinois.  Is that true?
	13        A.    That's not true.
	14        Q.    Did you ever meet a Mr. Eto or a Ken
	15   Eto?
	16        A.    No, sir, I have not.
	17        Q.    And that would be under any
	18   circumstances, is that correct?
	19        A.    No, sir, I don't remember meeting no
	20   Mr. Eto.
	21        Q.    And in particular, Mr. O'Rourke
	22   testified about your having met Mr. Eto at a card
	23   game.  Is that true?

	24        A.    No, sir.

 
	1        Q.    Mr. O'Rourke has testified that you
	2   were involved in street crews, or at least a
	3   street crew of the Chicago outfit.  Is his
	4   testimony true?
	5        A.    It's incorrect.
	6        Q.    Have you ever been involved with any
	7   street crews?
	8        A.    No, I have not.
	9        Q.    Mr. O'Rourke testified concerning an
	10   individual known as Umberto Fillippi.  Do you know
	11   a person named Umberto Fillippi?
	12        A.    Yes, sir, I do.
	13        Q.    Would you tell the Hearing Officer how
	14   you know him, what you know about him?
	15        A.    I met him twice.
	16        Q.    Where and how?
	17        A.    He was a waiter in a restaurant, and a
	18   friend of Sal Mango's.
	19        Q.    Which restaurant was it?
	20        A.    I believe it was a restaurant, Zio's,
	21   on State Street.
	22        Q.    How did you come to know the name of
	23   Umberto Fillippi?
	24        A.    I met him there through Mr. Mango.

 
	1        Q.    Who was Sal Mango?
	2        A.    Sal Mango, NCI Optical, they had a
	3   contract with the City of Chicago.
	4        Q.    How did you know Sal Mango?
	5        A.    I met him through my cousin.
	6        Q.    Which cousin is that?
	7        A.    Thomas.
	8        Q.    Thomas Matassa?
	9        A.    Yes, that's correct.
	10        Q.    And under what circumstances did you
	11   meet Mr. Mango through Tom Matassa?
	12        A.    Over lunch.
	13        Q.    And why were you there?
	14        A.    I was invited to have lunch.
	15        Q.    And at that time, what position did you
	16   hold with Local 2?
	17        A.    President/business manager.
	18        Q.    What was the, what went on at the
	19   lunch?
	20        A.    Nothing.  He introduced, you know, he
	21   introduced Mr. Mango to me as his partner.  They
	22   were in business together.  And we had lunch.  And
	23   I also met a friend of Mr. Mango's, Sonny Cohen,
	24   who owns Maurice Lenell Cookies.  He was there.

 
	1        Q.    How did Mr. -- as far as you know, how
	2   did you get to Umberto Fillippi through Mr. Mango?
	3        A.    I went to dinner with my cousin one
	4   night.
	5        Q.    Which cousin was that?
	6        A.    Thomas.
	7        Q.    Okay.
	8        A.    And Mr. Mango and Sonny Cohen.  There
	9   was a couple other people.  We went to this
	10   restaurant, Zio's, for dinner.  And Sal introduced
	11   me to this Umberto Fillippi.  That is how I met
	12   him.
	13        Q.    And at that time, Fillippi was a
	14   waiter?
	15        A.    Yes.
	16        Q.    Did you see Fillippi after that dinner?
	17        A.    Yes, I saw him a couple other times.
	18        Q.    Where?
	19        A.    Once in a golf outing, at a SEIU golf
	20   outing; he was there.
	21        Q.    That is service employees union?
	22        A.    Yes, it is; Local 1, janitors union.  I
	23   was invited there.  And he came there with Mr.
	24   Mango, and set up a lunch on the golf course with

 
	1   china and crystal.
	2        Q.    Did you ever have any social
	3   conversations with Mr. Fillippi?
	4        A.    No, not really; just hello, how are
	5   you.  I saw him one other time when Mr. Mango was,
	6   had cancer, terminal cancer.  I went to visit him
	7   at his house, with my cousin.  And Umberto
	8   Fillippi was there, I guess taking care of Mr.
	9   Mango.
	10        Q.    How many times were you at Sal Mango's
	11   house?
	12        A.    About two or three times.
	13        Q.    And there was testimony of, from John
	14   O'Rourke, secondhand at least, concerning a time
	15   when Umberto Fillippi was at Sal Mango's house,
	16   and on a regular basis, you and John Serpico and
	17   some others were to have received kickbacks in
	18   cash regarding health insurance benefits.  Do you
	19   remember that testimony?
	20        A.    Yes, I do.
	21        Q.    Is any part of that testimony true?
	22        A.    It's completely false.  I was never at
	23   Mr. Mango's house with John Serpico.
	24        Q.    Do you know John Serpico?

 
	1        A.    Yes, I do.
	2        Q.    How do you know John Serpico?
	3        A.    I know Mr. Serpico when I worked for
	4   Local 707; I met him out at Jay's Potato Chips.
	5   We had him on strike.  And Mr. Serpico pulled up
	6   in a, his car, and said, what are you guys doing
	7   out here?  I said, we organized this bargaining
	8   unit.  He said, well, these people belong to us.
	9	    I said, well, we signed up the cards.
	10   We are going for election.  We pulled them out.
	11   And that is the first time I met Mr. Serpico.
	12        Q.    Apparently, there is a piece of your
	13   life that I've missed, and that is, the working
	14   for Local 707?
	15        A.    Yes.  I worked for them for just about
	16   a year.
	17        Q.    What period of time was that?
	18        A.    A couple years after the airport.
	19        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Is that Teamsters
	20   Union?
	21        MR. CARMELL:  No.
	22        THE WITNESS:  No.  It's an independent local,
	23   Mr. Vaira.
	24   BY MR. CARMELL:

 
	1        Q.    Was that before you went to work for
	2   the City of Chicago or during the time?
	3        A.    That was during that time, sir.
	4        Q.    So while you were working for the City
	5   of Chicago part time, you were also --
	6        A.    Employed by Local 707 for about a year
	7   and a half.
	8        Q.    Now, I want to turn your attention to
	9   Mr. O'Rourke's testimony again.  Again, all of
	10   this is secondhand, at least.  Do you know a Vic
	11   Arrigo, A-r-r-i-g-o?
	12        A.    No, not to my knowledge, I don't know
	13   him.
	14        Q.    When you say not to your knowledge, is
	15   that that as far as --
	16        A.    I don't remember ever meeting Arrigo,
	17   you know.
	18        Q.    Now, Mr. O'Rourke again testified
	19   concerning a Mr. Glitta.  Do you know a person by
	20   the name of Glitta??
	21        A.    I knew a Michael Glitta.
	22        Q.    Who is Michael Glitta?
	23        A.    My father's first cousin.  I knew his
	24   brother Dan, brother Carlo Glitta.  Carlo is a

 
	1   member of the Truck Drivers Union.  Dan is a
	2   member of the Local Transportation with myself.
	3        Q.    Let's go to Michael Glitta.  Did you
	4   see much of Michael Glitta growing up?
	5        A.    Yes, I did.
	6        Q.    And were you fairly close?
	7        A.    Yes.
	8        Q.    And how close as relatives would you
	9   say?
	10        A.    Well, he used to come by the house all
	11   the time.  His wife was in a wheelchair.  She had
	12   MS and he lived maybe about two miles from our
	13   home on Nashville Avenue.
	14        Q.    How did you refer to Mr. Glitta?
	15        A.    As uncle.
	16        Q.    Uncle Mike?
	17        A.    Yes.
	18        Q.    And is Michael Glitta still living?
	19        A.    No, sir, he's not.
	20        Q.    When did he die?
	21        A.    He passed away about nine years ago, I
	22   believe.
	23        Q.    Now, did you know of any businesses
	24   that Michael Glitta owned or had an interest in?

 
	1        A.    Yes, I did.  I believe his wife owned
	2   three or four adult bookstores.
	3        Q.    And where were they located, as you
	4   recall?
	5        A.    One was on Clark Street, the other one
	6   was on, I believe Rush Street, and one on Mannheim
	7   Road in the suburbs.
	8        Q.    And did you ever go to any one of those
	9   adult bookstores?
	10        A.    Yes, sir, I did.
	11        Q.    And during what period of time did you
	12   do that?
	13        A.    Those couple years after the airport,
	14   Schulman Air Freight went out of business and I
	15   was going for therapy.  I used to pick him up in
	16   the morning, drive him around.
	17        Q.    By "him," who do you mean?
	18        A.    Mike Glitta.
	19        Q.    Why did you drive Mike Glitta around?
	20        A.    Well, he was a sick man.  He had
	21   emphysema and he had had a heart attack and I
	22   really didn't have too much to do.  I'd be through
	23   with that city job about 7:30, so I'd go by his
	24   house and we'd go for breakfast and then I would

 
	1   just, you know, drive him around on his daily
	2   errands, to the doctor's, I'd go for my therapy,
	3   he'd go to his bookstores, and I would help him,
	4   you know, help him out.
	5        Q.    And by helping him out, what would you
	6   do?
	7        A.    Well, I would help him restock his
	8   stores.  I would go shopping with him.  They used
	9   to go to one central place to go shopping.  I
	10   would drive him and his wife.  She had bad eyes.
	11   She couldn't drive too good.  And I would
	12   basically spend the day with them and then usually
	13   go out to eat dinner with them, too, before I went
	14   home.
	15        Q.    Did you have any interest in any of the
	16   stores that Mr. Glitta and/or his wife owned?
	17        A.    No, sir.
	18        Q.    Now, there's been references in the
	19   record to a Mr. Edwards Restaurant.  Are you
	20   familiar with that restaurant?
	21        A.    Yes, sir, I am.
	22        Q.    And where is that located?
	23        A.    Diversey and Nargansett.
	24        Q.    And let's say now with respect to the

 
	1   Local 2's office, which is the same thing now as
	2   the District Council office, because they're
	3   across the street from each other, how far away is
	4   Mr. Edwards Restaurant?
	5        A.    About four or five blocks.
	6        Q.    And have you gone to Mr. Edwards
	7   Restaurant?
	8        A.    Yes, sir.
	9        Q.    And have you done that on a regular
	10   basis?
	11        A.    Yes, sir.
	12        Q.    Do you -- we've already -- you've
	13   already testified that you knew Vince Solano?
	14        A.    That's correct.
	15        Q.    Would you tell the Hearing Officer
	16   under what circumstances you knew Vince Solano?
	17        A.    I met Mr. Solano in 1965 or '66, I
	18   believe.
	19        Q.    And what position did Mr. Solano hold
	20   in the Laborers'?
	21        A.    I couldn't tell you that, sir.
	22        Q.    All right.  Under what circumstances
	23   did you meet him?
	24        A.    I went to school with his son, Anthony,

 
	1   at Holy Cross, and Mrs. Solano picked up us
	2   between practice and a game, and we went back by
	3   his house for dinner and that's where I met his
	4   father and his brother.
	5        Q.    Your relationship at that time was with
	6   his son, is that right?
	7        A.    That's correct.
	8        Q.    Did there come a time when you had any
	9   interfacing with the father, Vince Solano?
	10        A.    Yes, sir, I did.
	11        Q.    And when did that occur?
	12        A.    Well, I used to see Mr. Solano in the
	13   summertime when I was going to high school on
	14   North and 5th Avenue.  He lived down the street
	15   from there.  And I would see him there maybe a
	16   couple times a week hitting golf balls next to
	17   Triton College.  And, you know, I would say hello
	18   to him, how are you, you know, and then I would
	19   just go about my business.  But I would run into
	20   him frequently there.
	21        Q.    After you became affiliated with Local
	22   2, did you have occasion to see Mr. Solano other
	23   than hitting golf balls?
	24        A.    Yes, sir, I did.

 
	1        Q.    Under what circumstances?
	2        A.    At the District Council, and Mr. Solano
	3   and Mr. Caporale used to come by Local 2's office
	4   on Fullerton, and they would go eat with
	5   Mr. Christopher and, you know, whoever was
	6   around.  They'd stop over, they'd go have
	7   breakfast on the corner.
	8        Q.    And did you have any dealings with
	9   Vincent Solano, with his local and your local on
	10   any business matters?
	11        A.    I never dealt with him personally on a
	12   local matter.  I always dealt with Frank Colainni,
	13   Frank DiMonte, Sal Gruttadauro, but basically it
	14   was Mr. Colainni and Mr. DiMonte that I dealt with
	15   if I had a problem.
	16        Q.    The three individuals that you
	17   mentioned, as far as you understood, what
	18   positions did they hold with Local 1?
	19        A.    Well, I don't know their official
	20   capacity, but they were field reps.
	21        Q.    And at that time, do you know where
	22   Local 1's office was located?
	23        A.    Located at the Laborers' District
	24   Council on Diversey.

 
	1        Q.    And it still is there?
	2        A.    Yes, that's correct.
	3        Q.    And so there came a time when the Local
	4   2's office became right across the street from
	5   Local 1's office, is that right?
	6        A.    That's correct.
	7        Q.    Did you ever see Vince Solano at
	8   Mr. Edwards Restaurant?
	9        A.    Yes, sir.
	10        Q.    And did you ever sit and eat, drink
	11   coffee, do otherwise with Mr. Solano at
	12   Mr. Edwards Restaurant?
	13        A.    Numerous times I had breakfast there
	14   with Mr. Solano and other delegates from the
	15   Council, and officers.
	16        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Are you looking to take
	17   a break, Mr. Carmell?
	18        MR. CARMELL:  Yeah, yeah.  We can go a little
	19   farther.  We can go a little bit more.
	20        THE HEARING OFFICER:  A little bit more.
	21        MR. CARMELL:  Sure.  That's fine.
	22   BY MR. CARMELL:
	23        Q.    Are you socially friendly with
	24   Mr. Solano, were you socially friendly with

 
	1   Mr. Solano, Vince Solano?
	2        A.    I don't understand what you mean by
	3   socially friendly.  I mean, if you're asking me
	4   did he call me up on a Saturday night, you want to
	5   go have --
	6        Q.    Yes.
	7        A.    No, he never did.
	8        Q.    Other than seeing Mr. Solano in the
	9   areas you described and Mr. Edwards Restaurant
	10   where --
	11        A.    I've been to Christmas parties with
	12   him.  Laborers' had Christmas parties, golf
	13   outings with him, that I attended.  I mean, I've
	14   saw him there, saw him at numerous weddings and
	15   some funerals, Council night, if he was around,
	16   you know, there would be a bunch of us that would
	17   go out and have dinner.
	18        Q.    Did you ever meet a man named James
	19   LaValley?
	20        A.    No, sir, I have not.
	21        Q.    Do you know who James LaValley is
	22   outside of the hearing?
	23        A.    I have no idea who he is at all.
	24        Q.    Now, it's been testified to by

 
	1   Mr. O'Rourke again that you told James LaValley
	2   that you were a boss of a crew in the Chicago
	3   outfit.  Is that true?
	4        A.    That's completely false.
	5        Q.    Have you ever had occasion to visit the
	6   Brookwood Country Club?
	7        A.    No, sir.
	8        Q.    Do you know a Jack Cerone?
	9        A.    I know Jack Cerone, Jr.
	10        Q.    Well, do you know Jack Cerone, Sr.?
	11        A.    No, sir.
	12        Q.    Jack Cerone, Jr. is an attorney?
	13        A.    He's an attorney, that's correct.
	14        Q.    From now on I'll be referring to Jack
	15   Cerone, Sr.  Let's call it that.  Okay.  Do you
	16   know Jack Cerone, Sr.?
	17        A.    No, sir, I never met him.
	18        Q.    Have you ever had occasion to be, well,
	19   at any country club in the presence of Jack
	20   Cerone?
	21        A.    No, sir.
	22        MR. CARMELL:  Mr. Vaira, I think this is the
	23   appropriate time because I've finished with
	24   O'Rourke and I'm going to go on to the next

 
	1   person.
	2        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Thank you.
	3	        (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)
	4        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Back on the record.
	5   BY MR. CARMELL:
	6        Q.    We had discussed the Brookwood Country
	7   Club.  Did that club have a change in the name?
	8        A.    Yes, sir.
	9        Q.    And what was, what name did it take on?
	10        A.    I believe it went from Elmhurst to
	11   Brookwood.  They were both private country clubs.
	12   And now it's a public golf course, Fairview or
	13   Oaks or Oakview or something like that, sir.
	14        Q.    Have you ever been at the Fairview,
	15   Oakview Club?
	16        A.    Yes.  I played that course one time
	17   when it became public.
	18        Q.    Would your answer still stand
	19   concerning LaValley and -- strike that --
	20   concerning Jack Cerone, as goes to this club also,
	21   that you never saw him there?
	22        A.    No, sir, I have not.
	23        Q.    Now, John Dineen, who testified as a
	24   member of the Chicago Police Department, and then

 
	1   immediately became a member of the Inspector
	2   General's office, has testified on July 18th.  And
	3   were you present when he testified?
	4        A.    Yes, I was.
	5        Q.    Okay.  Mr. Dineen testified concerning
	6   matters which he had observed in files.  I want to
	7   ask you whether you have ever associated with
	8   people that you knew to be members of the Chicago
	9   mob during the 1980s.
	10        A.    I'm still, I don't understand the
	11   question.
	12        Q.    Well, he testified that you have
	13   associated with known members of the Chicago mob
	14   during the 1980s.  Is that correct?  Did you know
	15   of persons with whom you associated in the 1980s
	16   to be members of the mob?
	17        A.    No.
	18        Q.    Did you have occasion to eat at
	19   Giannotti's Restaurant?
	20        A.    Yes.
	21        Q.    Where is that located?
	22        A.    On Lawrence Avenue, about a mile and a
	23   half from my home.
	24        Q.    And how often have you been at

 
	1   Giannotti's Restaurant?
	2        A.    About 600 times.
	3        Q.    I gather you go on a regular basis?
	4        A.    Yes, I do.  And I've been going
	5   there --
	6        Q.    For how long?
	7        A.    -- since I was about 7, 8 years old.
	8   Mr. Giannotti is a friend of the family's.  And I
	9   visited all his restaurants, and still do today.
	10        Q.    The times you have been at Giannotti's
	11   Restaurant, have you been engaged in any meetings
	12   which were conducted by the Chicago outfit?
	13        A.    No, sir.
	14        Q.    Do you know a Joseph Spadavecchio?
	15        A.    No, I don't.
	16        Q.    Have you had occasion to be at any
	17   location such as Giannotti's Restaurant where
	18   somebody has pointed out a Joseph Spadavecchio to
	19   you?
	20        A.    No.
	21        Q.    Now, I'd like you to look at General
	22   Executive Board Exhibit 100.  I don't know if you
	23   have it in front of you.
	24        A.    I don't have anything here.

 
	1        Q.    See if you can get it from behind
	2   there.
	3	    Here is one.  This is titled a
	4   Background Report.  First page has 16 September,
	5   1993.  And I want to go to what is Page 7 of the
	6   report, under the heading Business Affiliations.
	7   You see that?
	8        A.    Yes, sir, I do.
	9        Q.    All right.  The first entry is Local 2,
	10   is president, at 6137 West Diversey.  That is a
	11   correct statement of the position you held?
	12        A.    Yes, sir.
	13        Q.    It says 1990 salary was $120,000.  Was
	14   that correct?
	15        A.    Salary in 1990, I couldn't swear to
	16   that, sir.  I don't have the LM2s here.
	17        Q.    Also, second one is, business
	18   affiliation is Cupboard on Hubbard Video and Book,
	19   109 West Hubbard; Matassa was listed as president
	20   of the corporation in 1992.
	21	    Would you tell the Hearing Officer
	22   about that?
	23        A.    That was a business that my cousin
	24   owned.

 
	1        Q.    Is that Tom?
	2        A.    That's Tom Matassa.  And it just says
	3   Matassa was listed on the corporation.  I know I
	4   was on that.  I know he asked to put me on that
	5   corporation, as just a corporate, to fill in a
	6   title.  And then I was removed from there, I
	7   believe it was in, I believe it was in '87 or
	8   '88.  And he put his mother-in-law on that
	9   corporation.
	10        Q.    Did you ever have any ownership in that
	11   Cupboard on Hubbard Video and Book?
	12        A.    No, sir.  I never received no stocks or
	13   had any dividend checks from that corporation.
	14        Q.    Did you have any direction or control
	15   of the operations of Cupboard on Hubbard?
	16        A.    No, sir.  I used to help them out there
	17   once in a while.  I'd run down on Saturdays,
	18   because he had another job.  If he was tied up
	19   where he had to go out of town, I would go down
	20   there and collect the register receipts for him.
	21        Q.    No. 3 is Broadway Books, at 7614 North
	22   Ashland.  What do you know about that entity?
	23        A.    Nothing.
	24        Q.    Do you have anything to do with it at

 
	1   all?
	2        A.    No, I don't.
	3        Q.    Do you know who owns it?
	4        A.    No, I don't.
	5        Q.    No. 4 is the Wells Street Book Center,
	6   178 North Wells.  What do you know about that?
	7        A.    Nothing.
	8        Q.    Do you have any interest in that
	9   operation?
	10        A.    No, I don't.
	11        Q.    Do you know anything about it?
	12        A.    No.
	13        Q.    No. 5 is L-P Ram, Inc., at 7733 South
	14   Cicero.  What do you know about that entity?
	15        A.    Nothing.
	16        Q.    Do you have any interest in that
	17   organization?
	18        A.    No, I don't.
	19        Q.    On the next page, Page 8, is, No. 6 is
	20   Rush Street Books, 3901 West Lawrence.  What do
	21   you know about that operation?
	22        A.    Nothing.
	23        Q.    Do you have any interest in it?
	24        A.    No, I don't.

 
	1        Q.    And No. 7 is Over 21 Bookstore, 1347
	2   North Wells Street.  Do you know anything about
	3   that operation?
	4        A.    No, I do not.
	5        Q.    Do you have any interest in that
	6   operation?
	7        A.    No, I don't.
	8        Q.    The final one, No. 8, is Frenchy's,
	9   F-R-E-N-C-H-Y, apostrophe S, Bookstore, 872 North
	10   State.  What do you know about that operation?
	11        A.    Nothing.
	12        Q.    Do you have any interest in that
	13   operation?
	14        A.    No, I don't.
	15        THE HEARING OFFICER:  So no knowledge, no
	16   interest in anything, except Cupboard on Hubbard,
	17   in the past.
	18        MR. CARMELL:  Yes.
	19        THE HEARING OFFICER:  But no knowledge about
	20   the rest of them.
	21        THE WITNESS:  No.
	22   BY MR. CARMELL:
	23        Q.    Now, I want to turn to page 10 of
	24   Exhibit 100, which is GEB criminal/organized crime

 
	1   associates, and I want to go through each one of
	2   these with you.
	3	    The first one is Dino Grassi,
	4   G-r-a-s-s-i.  Do you know a Dino Grassi?
	5        A.    No, I don't.
	6        Q.    No. 2 is Lawrence, L-a-w-r-e-n-c-e,
	7   Bradi, B-r-a-d-i.  Do you know such a person?
	8        A.    No, I do not.
	9        Q.    3 is Ronald Ignoffo, I-g-n-o-f-f-o.  Do
	10   you know a Ronald Ignoffo?
	11        A.    No, I don't.
	12        Q.    No. 4, Joseph Arnold.  Do you know a
	13   Joseph Arnold?
	14        A.    Yes, I do.
	15        Q.    And Joseph Arnold that you know, would
	16   you tell the Hearing Officer how you know him and

	17   who he is?
	18        A.    I know Mr. Arnold, he had a clothes
	19   shop and a -- a clothes shop and he also had a
	20   drug store with Joseph DeMarco, one on State
	21   Street and the other one was on Rush Street.  I
	22   used to go there for, you know, clothes and
	23   stuff.
	24        Q.    How else do you know Joseph Arnold, any

 
	1   other way?
	2        A.    Yes, sir.
	3        Q.    Will you tell the Hearing Officer?
	4        A.    I believe I was indicted with him in
	5   1982.
	6        Q.    And you were acquitted?
	7        A.    Yes, sir, I was.
	8        Q.    And how about Mr. Arnold?
	9        A.    Mr. Arnold was acquitted, also.
	10        Q.    No. 5, Frank Caruso.  You've already
	11   described a Frank Caruso you know who is head of
	12   1006.  Is there any other Frank Caruso that you
	13   know?
	14        A.    No, sir, I do not.  Well --
	15        Q.    Go ahead.
	16        A.    I know another Frank Caruso.
	17        Q.    Who is that?
	18        A.    Bruno's son.
	19        THE HEARING OFFICER:  How old is he?
	20        THE WITNESS:  How old is your son?
	21        MR. CARMELL:  No, don't.
	22        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Take a guess.  Take a
	23   guess.
	24        THE WITNESS:  In his early 20s.

 
	1        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Early 20s.
	2        MR. CARMELL:  So in 1993, he would have been
	3   17, 18 years old or whatever.
	4        THE HEARING OFFICER:  There's been no
	5   testimony about that.
	6   BY MR. CARMELL:
	7        Q.    But this Frank Caruso is listed an a
	8   union official.  Is Frank Caruso who is the son of
	9   Bruno Caruso a union official that you know?
	10        A.    No.
	11        THE HEARING OFFICER:  There's no testimony
	12   about the son.
	13   BY MR. CARMELL:
	14        Q.    Okay.  No. 6 is Frank Tornabene,
	15   T-o-r-n-a-b-e-n-e.  Do you know a Frank Tornabene?
	16        A.    Yes, I do.  I did.
	17        Q.    And is Mr. Tornabene, Frank Tornabene,
	18   living?
	19        A.    I believe he passed away some years
	20   ago.
	21        Q.    And at the time you knew him, what did
	22   you know about him?  Who he was and how did you
	23   know him?
	24        A.    Frank was in charge of the drivers for

 
	1   Chicago Sun-Times.
	2        Q.    Was he a driver himself?
	3        A.    No.  He was a supervisor.
	4        Q.    And he worked for the Chicago
	5   Sun-Times?
	6        A.    Yes.  I believe he worked there for
	7   about 35 years.
	8        Q.    How did you get to know him?
	9        A.    I met him through my uncle downtown.
	10   My uncle worked for, indirectly for the Sun-Times,
	11   for the scratch sheet.
	12        Q.    Which uncle is that?
	13        A.    Mike Glitta.
	14        Q.    And were you friendly with Frank
	15   Tornabene?
	16        A.    Just hello, how are you.
	17        Q.    No. 7 is Joseph Morici, M-o-r-i-c-i.
	18   What do you know about him?
	19        A.    Nothing.  I don't know him.
	20        Q.    No. 8 is Robert Dominic, D-o-m-i-n-i-c.
	21     What do you know about him?
	22        A.    I met him one time.
	23        Q.    And do you recall where you met him and
	24   when?

 
	1        A.    Yes.  Mr. Edwards Restaurant.
	2        Q.    And under what circumstances?
	3        A.    I went there with Mr. DiMonte for a
	4   sandwich and I believe Mr. Dominick was -- owned a
	5   fruit stand with his brother-in-law.
	6        Q.    Well, which DiMonte did you go with?
	7        A.    Frank.
	8        Q.    And who was Frank DiMonte with respect
	9   to the Laborers' at that time?
	10        A.    Field rep for Local 1.
	11        Q.    And at that time, were the offices of
	12   Local 1 across the street from Local 2?
	13        A.    Yes, they were.
	14        Q.    And what happened when you went into
	15   the restaurant as regards Mr. Dominic?  Was he
	16   already there?
	17        A.    I believe he was, sir.
	18        Q.    Were you planning to meet him at that
	19   time?
	20        A.    No, sir.
	21        Q.    Did Frank DiMonte appear to know
	22   Mr. Dominic at that time?
	23        A.    Yes, I believe they were friends.
	24        Q.    Okay.  What occurred, as you recall it?

 
	1        A.    Nothing.  Sat down, they said hello to
	2   each other and he was asking him how his business
	3   was with his brother-in-law.  They owned a fruit
	4   stand, I believe.
	5        Q.    Have you seen Robert Dominic since that
	6   time that you know of?
	7        A.    No, sir.
	8        Q.    No. 9 is Nickolas, N-i-c-k-o-l-a-s,
	9   Boulahanis, B-o-u-l-a-h-a-n-i-s.  What do you know
	10   about him?
	11        A.    Nothing.
	12        Q.    I wasted my time with all that
	13   spelling.
	14	    No. 10 is Richard Bravieri,
	15   B-r-a-v-i-e-r-i.  Did you know a Richard -- what
	16   do you know about him?
	17        A.    Nothing.  I don't know him.
	18        Q.    No. 11 is Santo Volpe, V-o-l-p-e.  Did
	19   you know a Santo Volpe?
	20        A.    Yes, I do.
	21        Q.    And who is Santo Volpe?
	22        A.    He is an attorney in Illinois.
	23        Q.    And did he represent you in any matter?
	24        A.    Yes, he did.

 
	1        Q.    What matter was that?
	2        A.    In my indictment, criminal indictment.
	3        Q.    No. 11 is Daniel Bartoli,
	4   B-a-r-t-o-l-i.  What do you know about him?
	5        A.    Nothing.
	6        Q.    Do you know him at all?
	7        A.    No, I don't.
	8        Q.    And No. 13 is Anthony Cirignani,
	9   C-i-r-i-g-n-a-n-i.  What do you know about him?
	10        A.    Nothing.
	11        Q.    Do you know him at all?
	12        A.    No, I don't.
	13        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Is that the racing
	14   commissioner?
	15        MR. CARMELL:  No.  Was that Siragusa, was
	16   that the guy?
	17        THE HEARING OFFICER:  No.
	18   BY MR. CARMELL:
	19        Q.    Now, it says at page 10 underneath all
	20   this, that you frequent Mr. Edwards Restaurant.
	21   That is a fact?
	22        A.    That's correct, sir.  I still do today.
	23        Q.    And it talks about the Final Score
	24   Tavern located at 5946 West Grand Avenue.  Have

 
	1   you been there?
	2        A.    No, sir.
	3        Q.    Now, on page 11, under H,
	4   surveillances, No. 1 is that you were observed at
	5   Edwards Restaurant in 1986 meeting with Glitta and
	6   Vince Solano.  To your knowledge, did that ever
	7   occur?
	8        A.    That could have occurred.
	9        Q.    Under what circumstances would that
	10   have occurred?
	11        A.    Well, we used to go for breakfast
	12   three, four times a week there.
	13        Q.    Who is "we"?
	14        A.    Mr. Solano, some other delegates from
	15   the Council, myself, Mr. Christopher,
	16   Mr. DiSylvio.
	17        Q.    All right.  But do you have any
	18   understanding as to why Mike Glitta would be at
	19   Mr. Edwards Restaurant?
	20        A.    Probably to have breakfast.
	21        Q.    Had you seen him there before?
	22        A.    No.
	23        Q.    Was there a prearranged meeting that
	24   you were going to see Mr. Glitta that time in

 
	1   1986?
	2        A.    No, sir.
	3        Q.    All right.  No. 2 says that on October
	4   23 of 1986, you were observed at the Hubbard
	5   Bookstore unloading boxes from the trunk and some
	6   unidentified subject carried the boxes into the
	7   store.  That could be the Cupboard on Hubbard that
	8   your cousin owned?
	9        A.    Yes, sir.
	10        Q.    And you testified that on occasion you
	11   would help him out?
	12        A.    Oh, absolutely.
	13        Q.    All right.  Now, No. 3 is on October
	14   22, 1986, you were walking from the Hubbard Street
	15   Bookstore with a money bag in your hand.  What
	16   could that have been about?
	17        A.    Well, I don't know if I had a money bag
	18   in my hand.  He never had money bags there.  They
	19   used to put them in a brown paper envelope.
	20        Q.    And what would you do with that?
	21        A.    Nothing.  I would bring it to him later
	22   when I saw him, if I collected the receipts.
	23        Q.    Now, No. 4 is that on March 20, 1990,
	24   you were observed, supposedly observed meeting

 
	1   with Robert Dominic at Mr. Edwards Restaurant.
	2   Aside from the incident you talked about where you
	3   met Robert Dominic with Frank DiMonte, was there
	4   any other time that you recall having met him at
	5   Mr. Edwards?
	6        A.    No, sir, no.
	7        Q.    No. 5, you were observed numerous times
	8   at the union.  Is that correct?
	9        A.    Yes, it is.
	10        Q.    You were there.  All right.  And we've
	11   already discussed No. 6, which states that the
	12   Department of Revenue had you listed as the
	13   president of Cupboard on Hubbard.  It's your
	14   understanding that you had long before that been
	15   taken off as an officer, is that right?
	16        A.    Yes, that's correct.  I believe he sold
	17   that business in 1987, sir.
	18        Q.    Now, if you go to the, it's not really
	19   numbered, but it's a report and it's about the, I
	20   don't know, fifth or sixth document from the
	21   back.  It's a surveillance report.  It appears to
	22   be dated 6/20, it seems to me, of 1986.  And I
	23   think those are the surveillance reports which
	24   we've already discussed, but these are just the

 
	1   reports themselves.  According to -- yeah.  Can
	2   you see it?  It's the first one.  It begins that
	3   you went to Mr. Edwards Restaurant.
	4        A.    He said the first one?  Okay.
	5        Q.    At 8:40 and left at 9:05.  Okay.  Do
	6   you see that one?
	7        A.    Yes, I do.
	8        Q.    Okay.  Could you have been at
	9   Mr. Edwards Restaurant on that day for some 25
	10   minutes and have seen Mr. Glitta there and
	11   Mr. Solano?
	12        A.    I could have been there having
	13   breakfast, but Mr. Glitta never owned a Bronco.
	14        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Where is that again?
	15        THE WITNESS:  By the union hall on Diversey
	16   Avenue.
	17        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Where is this
	18   observation taking place?
	19        MR. CARMELL:  This is taking place at
	20   Mr. Edwards Restaurant.  And I think he's saying
	21   that one of the things here is that Mr. Glitta
	22   pulled up in a late model Bronco without license
	23   and Mr. Matassa got in at 8:40 and everybody came
	24   in some minutes later and the whole thing was over

 
	1   at 9:05.
	2   BY MR. CARMELL:
	3        Q.    The next one is a supposed observation
	4   at Giannotti's Restaurant.  And it says that on
	5   February 17, 1988, it says, quote, "After ordering
	6   a drink, Matassa saw Joseph Spadavecchio sitting
	7   at a table, went over and talked to him for a few
	8   minutes, and then returned to the bar," unquote.
	9   Is that true?
	10        A.    No, sir.  I told you I didn't know Mr.
	11   Spadavecchio.
	12        Q.    Now, the next one was a supposed
	13   surveillance at Mr. Edwards Restaurant on March
	14   14th, 1990.  And it states in there that when
	15   Robert Rocco Dominick left the restaurant, he put
	16   his arms around you, and hugged and kissed you.
	17	    Is that true?
	18        A.    I don't think so.
	19        Q.    Well, did that ever happen?
	20        A.    No, it never did.
	21        Q.    I just want to review your knowledge of
	22   Mr. Frank Demonte.  How do you know Frank Demonte?
	23        A.    I met Frank Demonte in, with my uncle,
	24   downtown at Carton's restaurant on Rush Street.

 
	1        Q.    When was that?
	2        A.    '78, '79.
	3        Q.    Under what circumstances did you meet
	4   him?
	5        A.    Breakfast.  They used to meet there in
	6   the morning and have breakfast.
	7        Q.    At the time, did you know what work
	8   Frank Demonte did?
	9        A.    No, I did not.
	10        Q.    Did there come a time when you learned
	11   what Frank Demonte that you had met did for a
	12   living?
	13        A.    Yes, I did.
	14        Q.    And what did he do for a living, as far
	15   as you knew?
	16        A.    He was a field representative for
	17   Local 1.
	18        Q.    Have you ever had occasion to visit the
	19   Phoenix Restaurant?
	20        A.    Yes, sir.
	21        Q.    And where is the Phoenix Restaurant?
	22        A.    On Cumberland and Lawrence, about a
	23   mile, two miles from my home.
	24        Q.    Do you know Mike Marcello?

 
	1        A.    Yes, sir, I do.
	2        Q.    And would you tell the Hearing Officer
	3   as far as you know who Mike Marcello is, how you
	4   know him?
	5        A.    I grew up with Mickey.
	6        Q.    With who?
	7        A.    Well, Mike Marcello; I call him Mickey.
	8        Q.    When you say grew up with him, from
	9   what period of time?
	10        A.    Since young, you know, young adults, 16
	11   years old, 15 years old.  We played ball together
	12   at the same parks, hung around together.
	13        Q.    Did you stay friendly with him after --
	14        A.    Yes, until today.
	15        Q.    And how often would you see Mike
	16   Marcello?
	17        A.    Three, four times a week.
	18        Q.    Where would you see him generally?
	19        A.    At what time frame?
	20        Q.    Would you see him at restaurants?
	21   Would you go out socially together?
	22        A.    Are you talking currently?
	23        Q.    As an adult, yes.
	24        A.    As an adult, yes, yes.

 
	1        Q.    All right.
	2        A.    As an adult, yes.
	3        Q.    Did you and Mr. Michael Marcello have,
	4   eat at the Phoenix Restaurant together?
	5        A.    I don't believe we ate there, sir.  We
	6   might have had coffee there.  I might have met him
	7   there.
	8        Q.    Do you know what work Mike Marcello
	9   did?
	10        A.    Truck driver for the Chicago
	11   Sun-Times.  I believe he's currently on disability
	12   with rotor cuff surgery.
	13        Q.    Do you know a person by the name of
	14   Alphonso Tornabene?
	15        A.    Yes, sir, I do.
	16        Q.    And how do you know him and when did
	17   you first know him?
	18        A.    About five years ago, four or five
	19   years ago.
	20        Q.    And how did you get to know him?
	21        A.    I was up north at Lake Geneva, by Mr.
	22   Marcello's house.
	23        Q.    Is this Mike Marcello?
	24        A.    Mike Marcello, yes.  And I was there

 
	1   with my wife and kids.  And we had some par-cooked
	2   pizzas.  And I had asked him where he got them.
	3   And he said from Al, who has a pizza parlor in
	4   Stickney.
	5        Q.    And what did you do then as far as
	6   getting to know Mr. Alphonso Tornabene?
	7        A.    I told Mickey I wanted, I told Michael
	8   that I wanted to go with him and get some for the
	9   house, for the kids; I have two small kids.
	10        Q.    And did you go?
	11        A.    Absolutely.
	12        Q.    And where was the pizza parlor located?
	13        A.    It's on 30 Lang Street, I believe, or
	14   31st Street in Stickney.
	15        Q.    And can you describe the pizza parlor
	16   at all?
	17        A.    It's a freestanding building, that's a
	18   pizza parlor.
	19        Q.    Does it have tables, or is it all
	20   carry-out?
	21        A.    It's carry-out.  And there's some
	22   tables on the one side of the place.
	23        Q.    Did you ever see Alphonso Tornabene at
	24   any time in the pizza parlor?

 
	1        A.    Yes, sir.
	2        Q.    Were you there, did you go -- do you
	3   remember what times of the day or night you would
	4   go to the pizza parlor?
	5        A.    It would vary; all different times.
	6   Sometimes I would go direct to his house, you
	7   know, to pick them up.  He would bring them over
	8   from the pizza, you know, because he lived a
	9   couple blocks from the pizza parlor.
	10        Q.    How did you know that you could go to
	11   Mr. Tornabene's house to get the pizzas?
	12        A.    Well, when I ordered, you know, when I
	13   order the pizzas or something, I'd call him up,
	14   tell him, you know, what I needed, and he would
	15   say, well, come by the house, I'll bring them home
	16   with me.
	17        Q.    Did you become friendly with Mr.
	18   Tornabene, outside of just being a customer of
	19   his?
	20        A.    Not really, no.  I've seen, you know,
	21   I've seen him.  I went to his home to pick up
	22   pizzas.  I've been by his pizza parlor.  I ran
	23   into him in restaurants.
	24        Q.    How old a man is Alphonso Tornabene?

 
	1        A.    Probably about 81 years old.
	2        Q.    And how old are you?
	3        A.    46.
	4        Q.    Did you know what, whether or what Mr.
	5   Tornabene did other than own this pizza parlor?
	6        A.    No, sir.
	7        Q.    Now, do you know Horwath's House,
	8   H-o-r-w-a-t-h-s, Horwath's Restaurant?
	9        A.    Yes, I do.
	10        Q.    Where is that located?
	11        A.    On Harlem Avenue.
	12        Q.    And under what circumstances have you
	13   been at Horwath's Restaurant?
	14        A.    On a weekly basis; I go there maybe
	15   two, three times a week.  Go there the night of
	16   the District Council meetings, go there the night
	17   of my local meetings.  I had an Executive Board
	18   meeting there.
	19        Q.    Specifically, have you ever gone to
	20   Horwath's Restaurant with Alphonso Tornabene and
	21   Mike Marcello?
	22        A.    No.
	23        Q.    Have you ever seen Michael Marcello and
	24   Al Tornabene at Horwath's Restaurant?

 
	1        A.    Numerous times.
	2        Q.    In April of 1996, do you recall whether
	3   you were at Horwath's Restaurant with Michael
	4   Marcello and Al Tornabene?
	5        A.    I don't recall that.
	6        Q.    Could you have been at the same table
	7   with the two of them?
	8        A.    No.
	9        Q.    Why not?
	10        A.    Well, because every time I saw him
	11   there, maybe six, seven times throughout the
	12   course of the last, you know, four or five years,
	13   I never had lunch with him there.  I've always sat
	14   with Joe Salerno, who owns Galewood Funeral Home,
	15   Ralph Massey and Frank Carbonera, who was a
	16   contractor.
	17        Q.    You say you have seen Alphonso
	18   Tornabene at Horwath's, is that right?
	19        A.    That's correct.
	20        Q.    Would you speak to him if you saw him?
	21        A.    Oh, sure, I would.
	22        Q.    Whether it be in the restaurant or
	23   outside the restaurant?
	24        A.    Absolutely.

 
	1        Q.    Would the same be true of Michael
	2   Marcello?
	3        A.    Oh, sure.  I would speak to you, too,
	4   counselor, if I saw you in a restaurant.
	5        Q.    I didn't want to ask that, because I
	6   didn't know the answer to it.
	7	    Do you know of a restaurant, Andrea's
	8   Restaurant?
	9        A.    Yes, I do.
	10        Q.    Where is that located?
	11        A.    I believe it's on Roosevelt Road.
	12        Q.    In what suburb?  Chicago?
	13        A.    I believe it's in Forest Park.
	14        Q.    And have you ever been there?
	15        A.    Yes.
	16        Q.    Under what circumstances?
	17        A.    I've had breakfast there.  I've had
	18   lunch there.  I've been there numerous times.
	19        Q.    Have you been in Andrea's Restaurant
	20   with Michael Marcello and Al Tornabene?
	21        A.    Yes.
	22        Q.    Would you tell the Hearing Officer
	23   under what circumstances and what occurred?
	24        A.    I believe it was a Sunday, a Sunday

 
	1   evening.  And down the street from there, Kenney
	2   Construction has got part of the Deep Tunnel
	3   projects.  I was there.  I went to the restaurant,
	4   because I had to go to the bathroom.  And Mr.
	5   Marcello and Mr. Tornabene were in there.  And
	6   when I came out of the bathroom, I sat down with
	7   them, and had a banana split.
	8        Q.    Not good for your figure.
	9        A.    Well, I was hungry.
	10        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Most places don't make
	11   banana splits anymore.
	12        THE WITNESS:  This place is noted for that, I
	13   guess.  That is the reason I went there to eat.
	14        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Not many places make a
	15   true banana split.
	16   BY MR. CARMELL:
	17        Q.    Now --
	18        THE HEARING OFFICER:  They don't.  You don't
	19   get all that gooey ice cream anymore.
	20   BY MR. CARMELL:
	21        Q.    There has been testimony concerning a
	22   surveillance in which you were pointing your
	23   finger and apparently in some sort of dispute or
	24   argument with Al Tornabene at Andrea's

 
	1   Restaurant.  Did that occur?
	2        A.    No, sir, it did not.
	3        THE HEARING OFFICER:  If I remember that
	4   testimony, there were a couple people, and there
	5   was a heated argument; somebody else was in that
	6   too.
	7        THE WITNESS:  There was three of us.
	8        MR. CARMELL:  I believe they testified
	9   Michael Marcello, Tornabene and Mr. Matassa, and
	10   he was --
	11        THE HEARING OFFICER:  That's three.
	12        MR. CARMELL:  -- pointing a finger.
	13   BY MR. CARMELL:
	14        Q.    Do you know whether, and did you know
	15   at the time whether Alphonso Tornabene was
	16   involved in any way with organized crime?
	17        A.    Absolutely not.
	18        Q.    Did you have any knowledge that Michael
	19   Marcello was involved in any way with organized
	20   crime?
	21        A.    Absolutely not.
	22        Q.    Did you have any business relationship
	23   with Alphonso Tornabene other than being a
	24   customer of his pizza?

 
	1        A.    No.
	2        Q.    Now, I want to direct your attention to
	3   testimony given by Gene Scaramella, Scaramella, on
	4   July 18th.  Mr. Matassa, have you ever been
	5   involved in any way with any pornographic
	6   activities?
	7        A.    Absolutely not.
	8        Q.    Now, you have testified concerning your
	9   stocking shelves, etcetera, at your cousin's, your
	10   cousin's and Mike Glitta's adult bookstores?
	11        A.    Yes.
	12        Q.    And in which you had no interest,
	13   financial or otherwise, is that right?
	14        A.    That's correct.
	15        Q.    Other than what you've testified to
	16   concerning the adult bookstores that we've talked
	17   about, did you have any other duties with respect
	18   to what might be considered adult or pornographic
	19   literature?
	20        A.    No.
	21        Q.    All right.  Now, I want to direct your
	22   attention to the testimony of Ron Fino, which was
	23   given on July 24.  Do you know Ron Fino?
	24        A.    No, sir, I do not.

 
	1        Q.    Other than having seen him here and
	2   testifying, had you ever seen him before?
	3        A.    No, sir.
	4        Q.    Did you know Angelo Fosco?
	5        A.    Yes, I did.
	6        Q.    How did you know Angelo Fosco?
	7        A.    Angelo was a neighbor of mine in
	8   Chicago where I live.
	9        Q.    Is that when you were living in --
	10        A.    On Nashville Street, that's correct.
	11        Q.    How far away did Angelo Fosco live?
	12        A.    Six, seven blocks, maybe.
	13        Q.    Did you remain friendly with Angelo
	14   Fosco after you moved away?
	15        A.    Yes, I used to see him.  I'd run into
	16   him in the restaurants, Horwath's, you know, other
	17   restaurants in the neighborhood.
	18        Q.    Now, I want to turn your, direct your
	19   attention to Mr. Scigalski's testimony on August
	20   14.  Have you ever been arrested?
	21        A.    No.
	22        Q.    Have you ever been indicted?
	23        A.    Yes, I have.
	24        Q.    And what were you indicted for?

 
	1        A.    I believe it was conspiracy and
	2   extortion.
	3        Q.    And that's the conspiracy and extortion
	4   which has been, there are exhibits in this case?
	5        A.    That's correct.
	6        Q.    And for which you were acquitted, is
	7   that correct?
	8        A.    That's correct.
	9        Q.    Now, have you ever -- and that was in
	10   what year, if you know?
	11        A.    I believe it was 1982.
	12        Q.    And how old were you at that time?
	13        A.    30-some years old.
	14        Q.    Were you working for any affiliate of
	15   the Laborers Union at that time?
	16        A.    No, sir, I was not.
	17        Q.    Now, since the indictment in 19, in the
	18   1980s, have you ever been indicted for any other
	19   reason?
	20        A.    No, sir.
	21        Q.    And have you ever been arrested after
	22   this period of time?
	23        A.    No, sir.
	24        Q.    Now, have you ever been called to

 
	1   testify before any Senate or House Committee?
	2        A.    No, sir, I have not.
	3        Q.    Now, I want to turn your attention to
	4   the testimony of Mr. Griffin which was given on
	5   August 14.  Did you receive a salary from Local 2
	6   and from the District Council of Laborers' while
	7   you were business -- while you were vice president
	8   of the District Council?  Did you receive a salary
	9   from Local 2 and from the District Council of
	10   Laborers'?
	11        A.    Yes, I did.
	12        Q.    And that came when you became a vice
	13   president of the District Council?
	14        A.    That's correct.
	15        Q.    Did you ask the General President
	16   whether you could receive multiple salaries?
	17        A.    No, I did not.
	18        Q.    Would you explain why you didn't?
	19        A.    Because it was never done before and I
	20   didn't think I had to do it.
	21        Q.    Did Local 2 file reports of offices
	22   with the International?
	23        A.    Yes, they did.
	24        Q.    Now, Mr. Matassa, there has been

 
	1   testimony concerning a deferred compensation
	2   agreement, and in that testimony, it was said that
	3   you have gotten salary from, or matching
	4   contributions from the local union and that
	5   deferred compensation agreement was to continue
	6   after you retire.  Do you remember that testimony?
	7        A.    Yes, I do.
	8        Q.    All right.  Is either part of that
	9   testimony correct?
	10        A.    It's not correct at all.
	11        Q.    Would you tell the Hearing Officer what
	12   actually are the facts concerning your deferred
	13   compensation agreement.
	14        A.    There's an insurance man, Don Gaan came
	15   to the local.
	16        Q.    Excuse me.  That's G-a-a-n.
	17        A.    G-a-a-n, and he explained to me that
	18   because of an IRS ruling, you are allowed to defer
	19   part of your salary in a nontaxable account, and I
	20   told him fine, I'd like to do that and I offered
	21   that to the other officers and employees of the
	22   local and they chose not to defer any part of
	23   their salary.  I started deferring $700 a month
	24   and then I took a cut in pay and I went down to

 
	1   $500 a month.
	2        Q.    The money was deducted from your
	3   paycheck?
	4        A.    From my payroll check, yes, sir.
	5        Q.    And where did the money go?
	6        A.    It went in a Putnam account that
	7   Mr. Gaan was managing.
	8        Q.    Were there any matching funds from the
	9   union?
	10        A.    Absolutely not.  That was my salary
	11   that I took part of.  It was -- I believed it to
	12   be like a savings account.  Mr. Gaan had told me
	13   that it was our right to do according to ERISA and
	14   the Department of Labor.
	15        Q.    I want to show you what has been marked
	16   as CDC Exhibit 40, which is the affidavit of
	17   Donald Gaan.
	18        MR. CARMELL:  Mr. Hearing Officer, you will
	19   note the reason why we have an affidavit in place
	20   of his live testimony is that he is in China, had
	21   scheduled this, was available on October the 7th,
	22   but because of my request for the continuance, it
	23   didn't occur.
	24   BY MR. CARMELL:

 
	1        Q.    I want you to look at Exhibit C to
	2   Exhibit 40, which is the voluntary compensation
	3   deferral, and ask you whether that's your
	4   signature.  You've got to go a lot of pages down.
	5   It's almost -- probably just two -- three from the
	6   end, in the back.
	7        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Maybe the last page.
	8   BY MR. CARMELL:
	9        Q.    Well, no, it's third from the last.
	10   It's called Voluntary Compensation Deferral.  "The
	11   undersigned hereby agrees to defer."  Do you see
	12   that, John?
	13        A.    Yes, sir.
	14        Q.    Is that your signature?
	15        A.    Yes, sir.
	16        Q.    And the amount to defer was $833 per
	17   month.  Was that the original amount?
	18        A.    I believe that's correct.
	19        Q.    Now, the next page is Exhibit D, which
	20   is a reporting disclosure statement dated March
	21   15, 1994, and is that your signature?
	22        A.    Yes, it is.
	23        Q.    And Exhibit E, which follows, is the
	24   copy which you, the union, received back from the

 
	1   Department of Labor stamped May 6, 1994 received?
	2        A.    Yes, sir.
	3        Q.    Now, on the deferred compensation
	4   agreement which is in evidence as Exhibit 94, it
	5   says that, "Whereas the organization wishes to
	6   encourage the continued service of the employee in
	7   an executive capacity until and after retirement
	8   on or about April 10, 2017."
	9        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Mr. Carmell, what are
	10   you reading from?
	11        MR. BOSTWICK:  I'm reading from General
	12   Exhibit 94, which is the deferred compensation
	13   agreement that's in evidence.
	14        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Oh.  Okay.  Not 40?
	15        MR. CARMELL:  40 is ours.
	16        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Okay.
	17        MR. BOSTWICK:  Mr. Carmell, did you ask
	18   Mr. Matassa if his signature is -- on 94 were his
	19   signatures?
	20        MR. CARMELL:  40.
	21        THE HEARING OFFICER:  40.  He hasn't gotten
	22   to the other.
	23   BY MR. CARMELL:
	24        Q.    What was your understanding as to

 
	1   whether the union was to guarantee you employment
	2   in an executive capacity after your retirement?
	3        A.    I had no understanding of that at all.
	4   The only understanding I had from this plan was
	5   that I was to defer part of my payroll check.  It
	6   was like a savings account.
	7        Q.    I want you to look on Exhibit --
	8   General Executive Board Exhibit 94, and beginning
	9   at page 7, and then there are numbers of pages,
	10   several pages after that, and ask you whether
	11   these are -- pages contain your signature?  Here,
	12   let me show it to you.  Page 7 of the agreement,
	13   are those your signature?
	14        A.    Yes, they are.
	15        Q.    And on Exhibit "A," beneficiary
	16   designation, is that your signature?
	17        A.    Yes, it is.
	18        Q.    And employee acknowledgment, are those
	19   your signatures?
	20        A.    Yes, they are.
	21        Q.    Exhibit, quote, "B," compensation, is
	22   that your signature?
	23        A.    Yes, it is.
	24        Q.    And voluntary compensation deferral,

 
	1   that's the signature we've already identified, is
	2   that correct?
	3        A.    That's correct.
	4        Q.    And on the next page, there's Putnam
	5   Investments, is that the Putnam you're talking
	6   about?
	7        A.    I believe it is.
	8        MR. CARMELL:  I'd like to offer CDC Exhibit
	9   40 at this time.
	10        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Admitted, sir.
	11	        (WHEREUPON, said document,
	12	        previously marked CDC Exhibit No.
	13	        40, for identification, was
	14	        offered and received in evidence.)
	15        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Question.  Is there
	16   something significant about the number of members,
	17   other members who are in the plan?  Some plans
	18   require you to have some sort of representative.
	19   Is there anything significant about that, if you
	20   know?
	21        MR. CARMELL:  My understanding is it has to
	22   be offered.  This particular one has to be offered
	23   to everyone.
	24	    Now, what we have as CDC Exhibit 41,

 
	1   Mr. Hearing Officer, is the letter that Mr. Gaan
	2   has referred to in his affidavit as the letter to
	3   -- it's a letter to Mr. Matassa enclosing the
	4   approval -- the acceptance by the Department of
	5   Labor, and I'd like to offer CDC Exhibit 41.
	6        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Okay.
	7        MR. BOSTWICK:  Can I ask about the -- since
	8   Mr. Gaan is not here, about this disclosure to the
	9   Department of Labor?  Can you refer me to that?
	10        MR. CARMELL:  That would be -- well, you can
	11   look at 41, if you want to.  It's a simple, simple
	12   -- simpler one.  That's the one marked 15, 1994.
	13        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Is there something in
	14   the --
	15        MR. CARMELL:  Yes.  It's the one-page one.
	16        THE HEARING OFFICER:  It's 42, isn't it?
	17        THE WITNESS:  No, 41.
	18        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Okay.
	19        MR. CARMELL:  This is the same.  This is the
	20   same.  There it is.  Is that what you're asking
	21   about?
	22        MR. BOSTWICK:  I guess I don't see on this
	23   form where it discloses to the Department of Labor
	24   his specific deferred compensation plan.  It says

 
	1   the employer maintains zero plans primarily for
	2   the purpose of providing deferred compensation.
	3        MR. CARMELL:  You must let them know whether
	4   you have any other plan.  You can't have this and
	5   another similar plan.
	6        MR. BOSTWICK:  All right.  Maybe we can talk
	7   about it afterwards.  I just don't understand from
	8   this form how it is that the deferred compensation
	9   plan we're talking about has been disclosed to the
	10   Department of Labor.
	11        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Okay.
	12        MR. CARMELL:  I don't necessarily -- could
	13   not necessarily tell you.  It's really all
	14   introduced for what Mr. Matassa's understanding of
	15   the plan is and what he has done with this plan
	16   only because of the testimony that it came on a
	17   matching, let me call it a matching fund basis and
	18   this is not.
	19        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Okay.  Well, the
	20   evidence is of record.  You can ask him and then
	21   if you need to ask somebody else, you're free to
	22   send somebody out.  I mean, the plan is what the
	23   plan is, and so you may ask experts or other
	24   persons in the field to understand it and do it

 
	1   informally and come back.  Or you can ask him.
	2	    All right.  You asked if I would admit,

	3   is it 41?
	4        MR. CARMELL:  41, yes.
	5        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Admitted.
	6	        (WHEREUPON, said document,
	7	        previously marked CDC Exhibit No.

	8	        41, for identification, was
	9	        offered and received in evidence.)
	10   BY MR. CARMELL:
	11        Q.    Now, CDC Exhibit 42, do you have it in
	12   front of you there, Mr. Matassa?
	13        A.    Yes, I do.
	14        Q.    It's entitled Hardship Provision.
	15        A.    Yes.
	16        Q.    And it changes the deferral amount to
	17   $460.  Do you see that?
	18        A.    Yes, I do.
	19        Q.    Is that your signature?
	20        A.    Yes, it is.
	21        MR. CARMELL:  I'd like to offer CDC Exhibit
	22   42.
	23        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Admitted.
	24	        (WHEREUPON, said document,

 
	1	        previously marked CDC Exhibit No.
	2	        42, for identification, was
	3	        offered and received in evidence.)
	4   BY MR. CARMELL:
	5        Q.    Mr. Matassa, did there come a time when
	6   GEB Exhibit 94, the deferred compensation
	7   agreement, was amended and restated?
	8        A.    Yes, it was.
	9        Q.    All right.  Let me show you what is
	10   as CDC Exhibit 43, and ask you whether that is the
	11   -- do you have it up there?
	12        A.    Yes, I do.
	13        Q.    Is that the amended and restated
	14   agreement you've just been referring to?
	15        A.    Yes, sir, it is.
	16        Q.    And are the places where there are
	17   signatures for John Matassa, Jr., are those your
	18   signatures?
	19        A.    Yes, they are.
	20        Q.    How is it that it came about that the
	21   deferred compensation agreement was amended and
	22   restated?
	23        A.    Because the -- what he told me at
	24   first, it should have been a 457(f).  I believe he

 
	1   put in a 457(b), and after going over the
	2   document, I explained to him that how am I going
	3   to get my money if I don't get reelected?  You
	4   know, I thought that this was just like a savings,
	5   a basic savings account of my own money.  So I got
	6   ahold of Thomas Havey & Associates with Don Gaan
	7   and Donna Hubert and Bob Tiberi and Don Gaan redid
	8   this.  He misrepresented what he was trying to
	9   sell me at the time.
	10        Q.    Did this agreement in any way change
	11   the fact that all of the money came from voluntary
	12   deductions from your pay?
	13        A.    No.
	14        Q.    I want you to look at the second
	15   whereas, and there has been a change in that
	16   second whereas from the second whereas in the
	17   original agreement, is that right?
	18        A.    That's correct.
	19        Q.    And what is the change, as far as you
	20   understood it?
	21        A.    As far as I understood it, when I
	22   left -- when I leave employment, okay, I can take
	23   my money.  It's no longer deferred.  I'd have to
	24   pay taxes on it, but I can take my money with me.

 
	1        Q.    And there's a date change from 2017 to
	2   2013.  What is July 1, 2013?
	3        A.    I believe that's normal retirement age.
	4        Q.    Would that be -- what age would you
	5   reach at 2013?
	6        A.    I think that might be 55 years old, or
	7   57 years old, with 20 -- might have 27 years, 25
	8   years in the union.  I'm not sure.
	9        Q.    As far as you knew, did the amended and
	10   restated plan, CDC Exhibit 43, change the workings
	11   of the deferred compensation as it had been?  Did
	12   it change it in any way?
	13        A.    Yes.
	14        Q.    How?
	15        A.    Well, I don't have to stay there in any
	16   capacity when I'm ready to retire.
	17        Q.    Now, the amended and restated agreement
	18   has a date of February 1, 1994, which is the date
	19   of the original agreement.  Actually, when was
	20   this amended and restated agreement signed, do you
	21   know?
	22        A.    Not offhand.
	23        Q.    Do you know how long ago it was?
	24        A.    I believe, you know, I'm not -- I

 
	1   really can't recall that -- maybe three or four
	2   months ago.  I'm not sure.
	3        Q.    Just one second.  Mr. Matassa, did the
	4   Executive Board of the union vote on the deferred
	5   compensation agreement?
	6        A.    Yes, sir, I believe they did.
	7        MR. BOSTWICK:  Are you talking about the
	8   amended agreement or the original?
	9   BY MR. CARMELL:
	10        Q.    Original agreement, '94.
	11        A.    Yes.
	12        MR. CARMELL:  I'd like to offer CDC Exhibit
	13   43 at this time, please.
	14        THE HEARING OFFICER:  We'll admit it.
	15	        (WHEREUPON, said document,
	16	    previously marked CDC Exhibit
	17	    No. 43, for identification, was
	18	    offered and received in evidence as
	19	    CDC Exhibit No. 43.)
	20   BY MR. CARMELL:
	21        Q.    Mr. Matassa, you say that you believe
	22   that there had been a vote taken by the Executive
	23   Board on it.  Was there any reason why the Board
	24   would have to vote on the agreement if it was all

 
	1   coming out of your money?
	2        A.    No reason at all.  I brought it up to
	3   the Executive Board to offer it to the other
	4   officers.  Then I offered it to the full-time
	5   salaried employee, secretary in the office, as an
	6   option to do.
	7        Q.    And that is what you meant by a vote on
	8   it, that you offered it to them?
	9        A.    That's correct.
	10        Q.    Mr. Matassa, have you ever been
	11   involved in any manner with the Chicago outfit?
	12        A.    No, sir, I have not.
	13        Q.    Have you ever associated with any
	14   members of the Chicago outfit?
	15        A.    Not to my knowledge.
	16        Q.    Have you ever spoken to any persons
	17   that you believed to be members of the Chicago
	18   outfit regarding any union business?
	19        A.    No, sir.
	20        Q.    Mr. Matassa, do you negotiate for your
	21   local, participate in negotiations of collective
	22   bargaining agreements?
	23        A.    Yes, sir, I do.
	24        Q.    Can you tell the Hearing Officer the,

 
	1   generally, the rates of pay that the, your members
	2   receive for the work they do?
	3        A.    22.35.  Bottom men receive 65 cents
	4   more an hour.
	5        Q.    So that can be $23 an hour?
	6        A.    That's correct.
	7        Q.    And in addition, does the employer make
	8   any contributions to any funds?
	9        A.    Pension, welfare.
	10        Q.    Does the contract contain provisions
	11   for holidays and things?
	12        A.    Yes, it does.
	13        Q.    Is it a good contract?
	14        A.    I believe it is.
	15        Q.    Are you and the other members of your
	16   field representatives interested in the safety of
	17   your members?
	18        A.    Yes, we are.
	19        Q.    And what do you do in order to ensure
	20   the safety of your members in places like the Deep
	21   Tunnel project and other underground projects?
	22        A.    Well, we usually have a business agent
	23   out there, the majority of the times, checking

	24   safety.  They have safety meetings on a weekly

 
	1   basis out there.  If there's anything new that
	2   comes up in training that would help with that, we
	3   would advise the contractor.  They figure these
	4   tunnel jobs to lose one man every mile.  And
	5   that's the statistics.
	6        Q.    Death, one death for every mile worked?
	7        A.    One death for every mile.  And so far,
	8   we have been pretty lucky, that we have only lost
	9   a couple people down there.
	10        MR. CARMELL:  Could we take a break, so I can

	11   see whether we can clean it --
	12        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Yeah, I think so.  If
	13   you do, I think we can just break completely.
	14        MR. CARMELL:  That will be fine, if you give
	15   me a ten-minute break.
	16        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Why don't we do this,
	17   Sherman.  Why don't we just break, if you have
	18   something -- for lunch -- and if you have
	19   something more, it will be very brief; then we can
	20   start, instead of coming back in two minutes and
	21   you're done.  So it's 12 now.  Come back at 1.
	22	        (WHEREUPON, the hearing was
	23	        recessed until 1:00 p.m., this
	24	        date, October 21, 1997.)

 
	1        OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER
	2      LABORERS' INTERNATIONAL UNION OF NORTH AMERICA
	3 
	4   IN RE:		     )
	5   TRUSTEESHIP PROCEEDINGS        ) No. 97-30T
	6   CHICAGO DISTRICT COUNCIL       )
	7 
	8 
	9 
	10	        October 21, 1997
	11		1:10 p.m.
	12 
	13	    The hearing resumed pursuant to recess
	14   at the Days Inn Hotel, 644 North Lake Short Drive,
	15   Chicago, Illinois.
	16 
	17 
	18   BEFORE:  MR. PETER F. VAIRA, Hearing Officer
	19 
	20 
	21 
	22 
	23 
	24

 
	1   PRESENT:
	2 
	3        COMEY, BOYD & LUSKIN,
	4        (1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W.,
	5        Washington, D.C. 20007-5243), by:
	6        MR. ROBERT M. THOMAS, JR.,
	7        MR. DWIGHT P. BOSTWICK,
	8	    appeared on behalf of the GEB Attorney;
	9 
	10        CARMELL, CHARONE, WIDMER, MATHEWS & MOSS,
	11        LTD.,
	12        (225 West Washington Street, Suite 1000,
	13        Chicago, Illinois  60606), by:
	14        MR. SHERMAN CARMELL,
	15        MS. SUZANNE M. LAW,
	16	    appeared on behalf of the Chicago
	17	    District Council of Laborers;
	18 
	19 
	20 
	21 
	22 
	23 
	24

 
	1   PRESENT: (Cont'd)
	2 
	3        EARL L. NEAL & ASSOCIATES,
	4        (111 West Washington Street, Suite 1700,
	5        Chicago, Illinois 60602), by:
	6        MR. GEORGE N. LEIGHTON,
	7	        -and-
	8        FARACI & FARACI, P.A.
	9        (111 West Washington Street, Suite 1720,
	10        Chicago, Illinois 60602), by:
	11        MR. PETER S. FARACI,
	12	    appeared on behalf of John A.
	13	    Matassa, Jr.
	14 
	15   ALSO PRESENT:
	16        MS. LAURIE HARTMAN
	17 
	18   REPORTED BY:  MARY KAY BELCOLORE, CSR, RPR.
	19	       DONNA S. PAPPAS, CSR, RPR.
	20 
	21 
	22 
	23 
	24

 
	1        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Mr. Carmell, at the
	2   break you said you had to consider whether you had
	3   any more.
	4        MR. CARMELL:  Yes.  I do.  I have one
	5   question.
	6        THE HEARING OFFICER:  All right.  One
	7   question.
	8	        JOHN A. MATASSA, JR.,
	9   called as a witness herein, having been previously
	10   duly sworn and having testified, was examined and
	11   testified further as follows:
	12	        DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)
	13   BY MR. CARMELL:
	14        Q.    Mr. Matassa, when was the first time
	15   you heard that you were in any manner associated
	16   with organized crime?
	17        A.    At these proceedings.
	18        MR. CARMELL:  Nothing else.
	19        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Okay.  Judge Leighton,
	20   we said yesterday that the attorneys for the
	21   individuals might have the opportunity, depending
	22   on what the situation is, if you wanted to ask
	23   some personal questions, as a personal attorney of
	24   your witness.

 
	1        MR. LEIGHTON:  I am inclined to ask just one
	2   or two questions, if I may.
	3        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Go ahead.
	4	        DIRECT EXAMINATION
	5   BY MR. LEIGHTON:
	6        Q.    Mr. Matassa, Mr. Carmell just asked you
	7   when was it you first heard that you were in any
	8   way connected with organized crime and you said in
	9   these proceedings.
	10        A.    That's correct.
	11        Q.    Who was the person you first heard say
	12   of you that you were a member of the Chicago mob?
	13        A.    Douglas Gow.
	14        Q.    You knew Mr. Gow, didn't you?
	15        A.    No, sir.
	16        Q.    He held a position in the
	17   International?
	18        A.    That's correct, sir.
	19        Q.    And prior to his saying that in your
	20   presence, you and he had communicated with one
	21   another about business of the union, hadn't you?
	22        A.    No, sir, I have never met him
	23   before -- I never met him even here.  The first
	24   time I ever saw him was here.

 
	1        Q.    Had he ever written to you?
	2        A.    Yes.
	3        Q.    Had you ever written to him?
	4        A.    I believe so.
	5        Q.    All I want to ask you, sir, is this:
	6   It's true, isn't it, that prior to Mr. Gow coming
	7   here and testifying that way about you, he could
	8   have communicated with you about it, couldn't he?
	9        MR. BOSTWICK:  I'm going to object to the
	10   form of the question.  That's leading.
	11   BY THE WITNESS:
	12        A.    Yes, he could.
	13        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I'll let it stand.
	14        MR. LEIGHTON:  I have no other questions.
	15        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Thank you, Judge.
	16   Okay.  Now we move to cross-examination, to
	17   Mr. -- oh, Mr. Bostwick.  Okay.
	18	        CROSS EXAMINATION
	19   BY MR. BOSTWICK:
	20        Q.    First of all, we may be talking about
	21   semantics here, Mr. Matassa, but you did know you
	22   were indicted on extortion charges in 1992, is
	23   that right?
	24        A.    That's correct, sir.

 
	1        Q.    So, in other words, that involvement,
	2   you understood that somebody had accused you of
	3   being involved in extortion activities and
	4   conspiracy long before Mr. Gow took the stand,
	5   didn't you?
	6        A.    Yes, sir.
	7        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I think your question
	8   was did anybody accuse him of being a part of
	9   organized crime, and --
	10        MR. BOSTWICK:  That's why I started my
	11   question we may be talking about semantics.
	12        THE HEARING OFFICER:  Okay.
	13   BY MR. BOSTWICK:
	14        Q.    Mr. Matassa, you've been the business
	15   manager of Local 2 since 1987, right?
	16        A.    That's correct.
	17        Q.    And you've never discussed mob
	18   allegations -- or allegations of mob influence in
	19   any Local 2 meeting since 1987, is that correct?
	20        A.    That's correct, sir.
	21        Q.    And you've been a delegate to the
	22   Chicago District Council since 1987?
	23        A.    Yes, sir, that's correct.
	24        Q.    And a vice president of the Chicago

 
	1   District Council since 1994, right?
	2        A.    Yes, sir.
	3        Q.    Okay.  And in no Chicago District
	4   Council meeting have you ever discussed
	5   allegations of mob influence over LIUNA?
	6        A.    No, sir, I have not.
	7        Q.    And you've never heard them discussed
	8   by any other delegate?
	9        A.    No, sir.
	10        Q.    Now, you testified that you never heard
	11   of any mob allegations or any allegations that you
	12   were in the outfit or were tied to the outfit.
	13   Did you -- I take it you never saw this article
	14   which we have been referring to throughout the
	15   hearing, the 1990 article on the Chicago mob
	16   entitled "Bad Company"?
	17        A.    No, sir.  The first time I seen it was
	18   here at these proceedings.
	19        Q.    No one had ever come up to you and told
	20   you your picture is in this Chicago Magazine as
	21   being tied to the mob?
	22        A.    No.
	23        Q.    In the Laborers'?
	24        A.    No, sir.

 
	1        Q.    And that article never came up at any
	2   Chicago District Council meetings?
	3        A.    No, sir.
	4        Q.    Now, you've heard the term Chicago
	5   outfit and mob throughout these proceedings,
	6   right?
	7        A.    That's correct.
	8        Q.    And you've testified previously, I
	9   believe, at a deposition that it's your personal
	10   opinion that the mob doesn't exist, is that a fair
	11   statement?
	12        A.    That's correct.
	13        Q.    And you testified, I think earlier in
	14   response to one of Mr. Carmell's questions that
	15   you never had any association with anybody in the
	16   Chicago outfit, is that correct?
	17        A.    I testified that I knowingly never had
	18   any associations with anybody to be in the mob.
	19        Q.    Okay.  That's fair.  That you never
	20   knew of any associations you had with any
	21   individual in the mob, is that correct?
	22        A.    That's correct.
	23        Q.    And I take it you never believed or
	24   suspected that anyone you were dealing with was

 
	1   involved in the Chicago outfit?
	2        A.    No.
	3        Q.    In other words, that's a correct
	4   statement?
	5        A.    That's a correct statement.
	6        Q.    Let's talk about your relationship with
	7   some of the people that have been identified at
	8   this hearing as being involved with the Chicago
	9   outfit.  At the hearing, we have talked
	10   extensively about and have put on testimony
	11   extensively about James Caporale, who is the
	12   business manager and secretary-treasurer of the
	13   Chicago District Council from 1982 to 1987.  You
	14   recall that type of testimony?
	15        A.    Yes, I do.
	16        Q.    Now, you recall that there has been
	17   testimony that he was convicted in 1982 before
	18   being promoted to business manager, he was
	19   convicted of looting the pension fund of
	20   approximately $2 million -- I'm sorry -- the
	21   welfare fund.  You recall that testimony?
	22        A.    Yes, I do.
	23        Q.    And you have known James Caporale since
	24   you were a child, is that right?

 
	1        A.    Yes, sir.  He lived in the
	2   neighborhood.
	3        Q.    And shortly before becoming a delegate
	4   in 1987, Mr. Caporale went to jail, is that
	5   correct?

	6        A.    I'm not sure what year he went, sir,
	7   but he was still there when he became a delegate.
	8        Q.    Okay.  So he was there when you became
	9   a delegate and then he left sometime later,
	10   whether it was a month or a year or what have you?
	11        A.    That's correct.
	12        Q.    Okay.  Did you ever ask James Caporale
	13   why he was going to jail?
	14        A.    No, sir.
	15        Q.    Did you ever ask anybody in the Chicago
	16   District Council, any of the delegates, why he was
	17   going to jail?
	18        A.    I didn't know he was going to jail,
	19   sir.
	20        Q.    So no one ever referred to your -- you
	21   had no knowledge that James Caporale was going to
	22   jail because he looted an affiliated welfare fund?
	23        A.    No, sir.
	24        Q.    You never suspected that James Caporale

 
	1   had any ties to the Chicago outfit?
	2        A.    No, sir.
	3        Q.    Now you have spoken to Mr. Caporale
	4   since he got out of jail, right?
	5        A.    Yes, sir.
	6        Q.    One of the places you have spoken to
	7   him is a Chicago District Council Christmas party,
	8   is that right?
	9        A.    I believe so.
	10        Q.    Okay.  What year would that have been?
	11        A.    I don't recall, sir.
	12        Q.    But it would have been after he came
	13   out of jail, so within the past five years, say?
	14        A.    Yes, sir.
	15        Q.    No one at the Chicago District Council
	16   Christmas party asked, why is this man, who has
	17   been convicted of looting $2 million of an
	18   affiliated fund, at our Christmas party after
	19   going to jail?
	20        A.    I didn't hear anybody say anything,
	21   sir.
	22        Q.    Let's talk about Vince Solano.  Vince
	23   Solano was an official of Local 1, and a delegate
	24   to the Chicago District Council for years before

 
	1   his death in 1992, wasn't he?
	2        A.    I believe so.
	3        Q.    Well, you know that to be a fact, don't
	4   you?
	5        A.    Well, I know that he was an official
	6   with Local 1.
	7        Q.    And you saw him at District Council
	8   meetings, didn't you, or did you?
	9        A.    Yes.
	10        Q.    And you knew him to be a delegate for
	11   the District Council for years?
	12        A.    Yes.
	13        Q.    And you heard testimony at this
	14   trusteeship hearing that in 1983, in a
	15   Congressional report, Vince Solano was identified
	16   as a mob boss in charge of the north side crew, is
	17   that correct?
	18        A.    That's correct.
	19        Q.    And Mr. Solano was again identified as
	20   the boss of the north side crew in the 1985
	21   President's Commission on Organized Crime report,
	22   according to testimony at this hearing, right?
	23        A.    That's correct, sir.
	24        Q.    And again in 1988, a Congressional

 
	1   committee found the same thing?
	2        A.    I believe so.
	3        Q.    Okay.  Now, you just testified in
	4   response to Mr. Carmell's questions that you have
	5   known Vince Solano since the late 1960s, is that
	6   correct?
	7        A.    That's correct.
	8        Q.    Through his son Anthony?
	9        A.    That's correct.
	10        Q.    Played football with his son?
	11        A.    Yeah.
	12        Q.    Hit golf balls with or saw Vince Solano
	13   on the driving range at a number of occasions, is
	14   that correct?
	15        A.    That's correct.
	16        Q.    And you saw him a few times a week when
	17   he was Local 1 leader from 1985 on, when you were
	18   also a Local 2 leader, is that correct?
	19        A.    That's correct, sir.
	20        Q.    Now, you never discussed with anyone,
	21   with Vince Solano or others, the pervasive
	22   allegations of his mob ties?
	23        MR. CARMELL:  I'm going to object.  That
	24   assumes that he even knew of them.

 
	1        MR. BOSTWICK:  No, it doesn't.
	2        MR. CARMELL:  He couldn't discuss something
	3   he didn't know.
	4        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I think that's
	5   conclusion.
	6   BY MR. BOSTWICK:
	7        Q.    Let me ask the question in a different
	8   way.  You never discussed with Vince Solano his
	9   allegations of his mob ties?
	10        A.    No, sir.
	11        Q.    Nor did you ever discuss with anybody
	12   else allegations of his mob ties?
	13        A.    I didn't know of any, sir.
	14        Q.    That was my next question.  You never
	15   heard that Vince Solano was tied in to the Chicago
	16   outfit in any way, shape or form?
	17        A.    No, sir, not until these proceedings
	18   here.
	19        Q.    Well, you had been questioned in your
	20   deposition about his mob ties a year and a half
	21   ago; so you knew as of that point in time that
	22   there were allegations of mob ties surrounding
	23   Vince Solano, didn't you?
	24        A.    I can't remember that, sir.

 
	1        Q.    Now, it's also your testimony, I take
	2   it, that in Chicago District Council meetings,
	3   these Congressional reports, not just about Vince
	4   Solano, but about the other individuals identified
	5   in these Congressional reports, like Babe Demonte
	6   and others, that the 1983 Congressional reports,
	7   the President's Commission on Organized Crime in
	8   1985, and the 1988 Congressional reports, those
	9   were never discussed in Chicago at District
	10   Council meetings, is that correct?
	11        A.    Not to my knowledge, sir.
	12        Q.    Never that you heard?
	13        A.    No, I haven't heard that.
	14        Q.    Let's turn to Mike --
	15        MR. CARMELL:  It's not that the question is
	16   wrong; it's just the time frame.  Are we talking
	17   about that he never heard it from the time he was
	18   a delegate, or he never heard that it had been
	19   discussed before the time that he became a
	20   delegate?  That is the only thing I was interested
	21   in.
	22        THE HEARING OFFICER:  I think that's a good
	23   point.
	24        MR. CARMELL:  Since he didn't become a

 
	1   delegate until 1987.
	2        THE WITNESS:  '87.
	3        MR. CARMELL:  I'm not saying it's not fair to
	4   ask him whether he knew about it before he became
	5   a delegate; and ask him about after.
	6   BY MR. BOSTWICK:
	7        Q.    From your experience in Chicago
	8   District Council meetings since 1987, nobody has
	9   ever brought up the fact that there was reports
	10   about Vince Solano and others in the Laborers'
	11   Union that were done by Congressional committees
	12   in 1983 and 1988 and also President's Commission
	13   on Organized Crime in 1985?
	14        A.    Nobody ever brought that to my
	15   attention, sir.
	16        Q.    Okay.  Let's turn to Mike Glitta.  At
	17   this trusteeship hearing, you heard Mr. Dineen
	18   testify that Vince Solano was boss of the north
	19   side crew, right?
	20        A.    That's correct.
	21        Q.    And you heard him testify that Mike
	22   Glitta was someone who ran all obscene bookstores
	23   for the Chicago mob, do you remember that
	24   testimony?

 
	1        A.    No, I don't.
	2        Q.    You don't remember John Dineen
	3   describing Mike Glitta?
	4        A.    I can't recall that, you know.
	5        Q.    Do you recall any testimony at this
	6   hearing that Mike Glitta was identified as a major
	7   porn figure for the Chicago outfit?
	8        A.    Not really.
	9        Q.    Okay.  Now, you've testified that you
	10   have known Mike Glitta since you were a child, in
	11   response to Mr. Carmell's questions, is that
	12   right?
	13        A.    That's correct.
	14        Q.    Okay.  And he was not your uncle, but
	15   you have referred to him as Uncle Mike because of
	16   your close relationship, is that correct?
	17        A.    That's correct.
	18        Q.    And he was actually related to you, but
	19   not as an uncle?
	20        A.    He was related to my father.  It's his
	21   first cousin.
	22        Q.    And he did own a number of porn shops,
	23   that's correct?
	24        A.    That's correct.

 
	1        Q.    Actually, you testified before, and I
	2   want to clarify it for you.  I didn't mean to
	3   mischaracterize anything.  You tes