284
1 OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER
2 LABORERS' INTERNATIONAL UNION OF NORTH AMERICA
3
4
5 IN RE: )
6 TRUSTEESHIP PROCEEDINGS ) No. 97-30T
7 CHICAGO DISTRICT COUNCIL )
8
9
10 July 17, 1997
11 9:06 a.m.
12
13
14 The hearing resumed pursuant to
15 adjournment at the Midland Hotel, 172 West Adams
16 Street, Chicago, Illinois.
17
18
19 BEFORE: MR. PETER F. VAIRA, Hearing Officer.
20
21
22
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24
285
1 PRESENT:
2 COMEY, BOYD & LUSKIN,
3 (1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W.,
4 Washington, D.C. 20007-5243), by:
5 MR. ROBERT M. THOMAS, JR.,
6 MR. DWIGHT P. BOSTWICK,
7 appeared on behalf of the GEB
8 Attorney;
9
10 CARMELL, CHARONE, WIDMER, MATHEWS & MOSS,
11 LTD.,
12 (225 West Washington Street, Suite 1000,
13 Chicago, Illinois 60606), by:
14 MR. SHERMAN CARMELL,
15 MR. MARTIN P. BARR,
16 MS. SUZANNE M. LAW,
17 appeared on behalf of the Chicago
18 District Council of Laborers;
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24
286
1 PRESENT: (Continued)
2 EARL L. NEAL & ASSOCIATES,
3 (111 West Washington, Suite 1700,
4 Chicago, Illinois 60602), by:
5 MR. PETER FARACI,
6 appeared on behalf of
7 John A. Matassa, Jr.
8
9 ALSO PRESENT:
10 MS. CHERYL MARQUARDT.
11
12 REPORTED BY: DONNA. S. PAPPAS, CSR,
13 JULIANA F. ZAJICEK, CSR.
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18
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24
287
1 MR. BOSTWICK: Mr. O'Rourke, I believe you
2 were on the stand. Mr. O'Rourke, I believe you
3 were under oath yesterday.
4 Is he still under oath today, or do
5 you want to --
6 THE HEARING OFFICER: No, that would be
7 fine. You're still under oath, Mr. O'Rourke.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
10 called as a witness herein, having been
11 previously duly sworn and having testified, was
12 examined and testified further as follows:
13 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)
14 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
15 Q. Good morning, Mr. O'Rourke. In your
16 capacity as an inspector for LIUNA, have you been
17 asked to investigate the connection between the
18 leadership of the Chicago Outfit and the
19 Laborers' District Council in the Chicago
20 vicinity?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Let me refer you to Exhibit 145, and
23 this, as we discussed yesterday, is a graphic
24 representation of information contained in the
288
1 District Council minutes, the LM2s, that sets
2 forth the positions of the five main official
3 positions of the Chicago District Council over
4 time from 1970 to the present with select
5 officials, field representatives or delegates
6 listed below.
7 Are you familiar with that chart?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Okay. We're going to refer to that
10 during the remainder of your testimony.
11 Mr. O'Rourke, as an FBI agent or in
12 your capacity as an inspector for LIUNA, have you
13 spoken to witnesses and sources about individuals
14 listed on this chart?
15 A. Yes, sir, I have.
16 Q. Did you speak to Rich Mara?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. And he is the 26th Street Crew member
19 we spoke of yesterday?
20 A. Correct, that's correct.
21 Q. I should say the ex-26th Street Crew
22 member, is that correct?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. How about Joseph Granata?
289
1 A. Yes, I interviewed Joseph Granata.
2 Q. Who is Mr. Granata?
3 A. Joe Granata is a member of the Cicero
4 Crew, Joe Ferriola Crew. He was the son of Frank
5 Granata, Sr., who operated the Galewood Funeral
6 Home, was a member of organized crime for many
7 years. He's the brother of Frank Granata, Jr.,
8 also known as Gigi Granata, who is a member of
9 the Elmwood Park Crew of the Chicago outfit. He
10 himself was a long-time member of the Outfit, was
11 a close associate of Harry Aleman, hit man, Butch
12 Petrocelli, Jimmy Inendino, several other
13 well-known members of the Ferriola Crew in the
14 1960s, 1970s, into the 1980s.
15 Q. Did he testify -- Mr. Granata, did he
16 testify in any federal criminal cases?
17 A. He did not testify. His tapes that he
18 made were consensual recordings, were utilized in
19 several cases resulting in convictions, but he
20 did not personally testify, no, sir.
21 Q. Did he provide information regarding
22 organized crime activities and the structure of
23 organized crime to the FBI in the past?
24 A. Yes, he did.
290
1 Q. Has the FBI ever found that
2 information to be unreliable to your knowledge?
3 A. No, sir.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. O'Rourke, what
5 cases did he testify and if you can remember the
6 names?
7 THE WITNESS: He testified -- Chris Messino,
8 Chris Messino and a cousin were Mob connected
9 drug dealers and he made hand-to-hand purchases
10 of narcotics, that means consensual recordings,
11 and the recordings were played at the trial and
12 they were both convicted.
13 He also was involved in a murder for
14 hire case under the control of the Alcohol,
15 Tobacco and Firearms and he had the consensual
16 recordings and the undercover agent testified at
17 the trial and the individual was also convicted.
18 THE HEARING OFFICER: I don't think any of
19 the microphones are live here.
20 MR. BOSTWICK: Well, mine is, but that's
21 probably the least important.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: I am just looking
23 back. We may have some difficulty hearing here.
24 (WHEREUPON, there was a short
291
1 interruption.)
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. That's fine. Go
3 ahead.
4 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
5 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, did you speak to
6 Mr. Granata about all or some of the individuals
7 listed on the Chicago District Council chart?
8 A. Yes, sir, I did.
9 Q. When did you do that?
10 A. The last conversation was the 14th of
11 July.
12 Q. Of this month?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, I don't want to go into
15 the substance of his conversations with you yet.
16 We'll do that in a minute. Let's keep going
17 through this list.
18 Did you also speak to James LaValley?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Who is he?
21 A. James LaValley was a collector and an
22 enforcer for organized crime. He worked for
23 Leonard Patrick and Mario Ranone, Gus Alex, his
24 partner was a man named Nick Gio. He was
292
1 indicted after an investigation by the FBI,
2 agreed to cooperate and then provided
3 information, was debriefed extensively and
4 testified in several federal criminal cases.
5 Q. Can you remember the names of any of
6 those cases?
7 A. Yes, sir. He testified in a case
8 involving a James Bollman, a Mob gambling
9 bookmaker, Nick Gio who was convicted of arson
10 for hire and later for murder against Leonard
11 Patrick who also cooperated and Gus Alex, Gussie
12 Alex, a long-time member of organized crime who
13 was convicted in Federal Court and sentenced to
14 17 years in prison.
15 He also testified in the Sam Carlisi
16 trial which 17, approximately 17 people were
17 convicted including Sam Carlisi, the boss of the
18 Mob, and I cannot recall if he testified in the
19 Rocco Infelise case or not. He may have. I am
20 not sure about that.
21 Q. Has he provided information regarding
22 organized -- first of all, were all of those
23 cases that you just mentioned relating to
24 organized criminal activity in the Chicago area?
293
1 A. Yes, they were.
2 Q. Has Mr. LaValley in addition to his
3 testimony in criminal cases provided information
4 to the FBI regarding organized crime activities
5 and the structure of organized crime in the
6 Chicago area?
7 A. Yes, sir, he has.
8 Q. Has the FBI ever found that
9 information to be unreliable, to your knowledge?
10 A. No, they have not.
11 Q. Did you speak with Mr. LaValley about
12 some or all of the members on this chart?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. When I say members, I mean the
15 individuals listed on the Chicago District
16 Council chart marked Exhibit 145?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. When was the most recent period of
19 time you spoke to Mr. LaValley? You can give me
20 an approximation.
21 A. I believe it was September the 19th,
22 1996.
23 Q. As for Mr. Granata and for
24 Mr. LaValley, did you speak to these individuals
294
1 on a number of occasions?
2 A. Yes, sir. I debriefed them from the
3 time they cooperated forward until during the
4 trials and then I have recent conversations with
5 them as well. The most recent with Mr. LaValley
6 was September of '96.
7 Q. How about James Basile? Am I
8 pronouncing that correctly?
9 A. Yes, sir, I believe so. James Peter
10 Basile or Basile, also known as Duke Basile.
11 Q. Who is he?
12 A. He was a cooperating witness, a member
13 of organized crime, a member of the Ferriola
14 Cicero crew, was a collector, an enforcer who
15 worked with Jerry Scarpelli, Tony Borsellino,
16 Butch Petrocelli, Michael Sarno, several others
17 as collectors for the Ferriola crew. He agreed
18 to cooperate secretly with the FBI and was
19 debriefed extensively, wore a concealed body
20 recorder and meetings with members of the
21 Ferriola Crew, Jerry Scarpelli, Mike Sarno.
22 Q. That's the Jerry Scarpelli we
23 mentioned yesterday?
24 A. Yes, sir.
295
1 Q. In part Mr. Basile's cooperation led
2 you to your conversations with Mr. Scarpelli?
3 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
4 Q. Okay. You can continue.
5 A. Basile cooperated for approximately
6 two years and then was surfaced. He provided
7 information on the structure of organized crime,
8 on street tax, loan sharking, armed robbery,
9 murders, a whole host of organized crime
10 activities and wore body recorders.
11 Q. What period of time are you talking
12 about that he cooperated?
13 A. 1986 through 1987 -- 1986 through 1988
14 at which time he was surfaced at the arrest of
15 Scarpelli.
16 Q. Did the FBI ever find any of the
17 information that you provided related to the
18 activities of the structure of organized crime to
19 be unreliable?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. Did you speak with him about all or
22 some of the members on this Chicago District
23 Council chart, Exhibit 145?
24 A. Yes, I did.
296
1 Q. When was the most recent occasion you
2 had to speak with Mr. Basile?
3 A. Approximately 1996.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: At that time you were
5 not working as a -- for the LIUNA Inspector
6 General or were you?
7 THE WITNESS: No. At that time I was an
8 inspector with the sheriff's office assigned to
9 the FBI task force prior to my employment with
10 LIUNA.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: What years did you
12 work as the sheriff's office investigator?
13 THE WITNESS: From the day of my retirement,
14 March of 1995 until May of 1996.
15 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
16 Q. Let's get this -- that's a good point
17 of clarification. In some of these instances,
18 you didn't talk about individuals who were listed
19 on the Chicago District Council chart because you
20 wanted to know anything about LIUNA, did you?
21 A. No, sir, that's correct.
22 Q. In other words, you were discussing
23 these names with these individuals prior to
24 having any interest or involvement in LIUNA?
297
1 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
2 Q. What was your primary focus at the
3 time?
4 A. Organized crime in Chicago.
5 Q. And subsequently you have had some
6 discussions with some of these individuals we are
7 talking about as a LIUNA Inspector General, is
8 that correct?
9 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
10 Q. Let's go to the next individual.
11 Lenny Patrick or Leonard Patrick, who is he?
12 A. Yes, sir. Leonard Patrick was a
13 member of organized crime for over 50 years. He
14 began his career with organized crime in the
15 1930s, 1940s. He became a boss of gambling over
16 bookmakers, he was the main conduit for the
17 Jewish bookmakers on the west side of Chicago and
18 then later on the north side, Rogers Park,
19 Lincolnwood, Skokie areas. He was told by Sam
20 Giancana in the 1950s that he would be, quote,
21 "with," unquote, Gus Alex and reported to Gus
22 Alex from then on up until the time of his arrest
23 and cooperation with the FBI.
24 Q. Did Mr. Patrick ever testify in any
298
1 federal criminal cases?
2 A. Yes, sir, he did.
3 Q. Can you name any of those?
4 A. He testified in a criminal case
5 against Mario Ranone, Nick Gio and Gus Alex in
6 which all were convicted. He testified in a
7 criminal case against Sam Carlisi and his crew in
8 which all were convicted. He testified against
9 John DiFronzo, boss of the Elmwood Park crew, in
10 San Diego, California and they were convicted.
11 MR. BOSTWICK: Mr. Vaira, I am going to move
12 admission of GEB Attorney Exhibit No. 19. It is
13 the Seventh Circuit opinion related to
14 Mr. Ranone, Gus Alex and Nick Gio. Mr. Carmell
15 has stipulated to this document for purposes of
16 authenticity. This is a court case. It simply
17 reflects that Chief Justice Posner of the Seventh
18 Circuit in 1994 has determined that organized
19 crime was alive and kicking throughout the 1980s
20 based on some of the testimony of the individuals
21 we are talking about here.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: I will accept that.
23 (WHEREUPON, said document,
24 previously marked GEB Attorney
299
1 Exhibit No. 19, for
2 identification, was offered and
3 received in evidence as GEB
4 Attorney Exhibit No. 19.)
5 MR. BOSTWICK: We are not going to go over
6 anything specific in that.
7 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Bostwick, did you say 17 or
8 19?
9 THE HEARING OFFICER: 19.
10 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
11 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, Mr. Patrick, did he
12 provide reliable information in all
13 circumstances? Are you aware of any
14 circumstances in which he provided any unreliable
15 information?
16 A. He provided reliable information in
17 all circumstances regarding organized crime.
18 When he testified in San Diego, he provided
19 information concerning his own involvement in a
20 murder in which he tried to make an alibi and as
21 a result of that at the time of his sentencing,
22 he was given an additional year in prison for
23 being untruthful in attempting to slant the
24 information.
300
1 Q. Are you aware of any information that
2 he has given to the FBI or in any court cases
3 related to the structure of organized crime that
4 has been found to be unreliable?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. In other words, no information has
7 been found to be unreliable?
8 A. That's correct, no information has
9 been found to be unreliable.
10 Q. Have you spoken to him about all --
11 and by him, I mean Leonard Patrick. Have you
12 spoken to Leonard Patrick about all or some of
13 the members on the Chicago District Council chart
14 marked as Exhibit 145?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Over what period of time?
17 A. Over the period of time that he
18 cooperated with the FBI while he was in witness
19 security and at the MCC. I don't recall, I think
20 it was 1990-91 period of time. He was debriefed
21 extensively for months.
22 Q. And you participated in those
23 debriefings?
24 A. Yes, sir. I was the case agent.
301
1 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, did you ever speak with
2 Umberto Fillippi?
3 A. Yes, sir, I did.
4 Q. And who is Umberto Fillippi?
5 A. Umberto Fillippi was an Italian-born
6 immigrant living in Chicago. He was a
7 professional maitre de and waiter and became
8 friendly with an individual named Salvatore
9 Termini or Sal Mango, who was a member of
10 organized crime, eventually became his confidant,
11 his driver, cook, and helper during the period
12 that Mr. Mango was dying of cancer and close
13 personal friend.
14 Q. Has he ever testified in any federal
15 criminal cases?
16 A. No, sir, he has not.
17 Q. Has he provided the FBI information
18 about certain individuals in organized crime?
19 A. Yes, sir, he has.
20 Q. Has that information ever been found
21 to be unreliable?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. Have you ever spoken to him about any
24 of these individuals on Exhibit 145?
302
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Over what period of time?
3 A. 1996.
4 Q. What position did you hold during that
5 period of time?
6 A. Inspector with the Office of the
7 Inspector General, LIUNA.
8 Q. How about an individual named William
9 Wemette, who is he?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Who is he?
12 A. William "Red" Wemette was a member of
13 the Rush Street North Side Crew, or Grand Avenue
14 Crew as well. He operated a pornographic
15 bookstore and he was a confidential informant for
16 the FBI for a number of years.
17 Q. Over what period of time?
18 A. Approximately 20 years. When he was
19 being shaken down by a Mob enforcer, Frank
20 Schweihs, also known as the German. He agreed to
21 cooperate and to testify and be thereafter
22 recorded for street tax payments and videotape
23 them secretly with the FBI, eventually testified
24 at the trial of Frank Schweihs and his partner,
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1 Mandy Daddino, Jeeps Daddino. Both were
2 convicted in federal court and given prison
3 sentences.
4 Q. Has Mr. Wemette over that period of
5 time provided information regarding the organized
6 criminal activities of the Chicago Outfit and
7 structure of that entity?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Has the FBI ever found that
10 information to be unreliable?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. Did you speak to him about some or all
13 of the members on this chart, GEB Attorney
14 Exhibit No. 145?
15 A. Yes, sir, I did.
16 Q. Over what period of time?
17 A. It was following his testimony in the
18 Frank Schweihs case, probably, as I recall, 1994,
19 1995.
20 Q. How about Mr. Sam Louis, have you
21 spoken to him?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Who is he?
24 A. Sam Louis is a former Chicago police
304
1 officer and a business agent for the Hotel
2 Employees and Restaurant Employees Union, now
3 unemployed.
4 Q. Has he ever testified in any federal
5 criminal cases?
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. Has he provided you with information
8 regarding the organized criminal activities and
9 structure?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Have you ever spoken to him -- first
12 of all, has he ever provided the FBI with
13 information regarding organized criminal
14 activities in Chicago?
15 A. No, sir.
16 Q. Not to your knowledge?
17 A. Not to my knowledge.
18 Q. Did you speak with him about all or
19 some of the members on this chart, GEB Attorney
20 Exhibit 145?
21 A. Yes, sir, I did.
22 Q. And, I'm sorry, approximately when did
23 you do that?
24 A. Approximately -- well, I spoke with
305
1 him in January, 1997. In fact, I've spoken to
2 him since. The interview in question occurred
3 two days in January of 1997. I have spoken to
4 him as recently as the last month.
5 Q. How about William Jahoda?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Who is William Jahoda?
8 A. William Jahoda, also known as BJ, was
9 the individual who was in charge of the gambling
10 operations for the Rocky Infelise Cicero Crew.
11 He became a cooperating witness operated by the
12 Internal Revenue Service, was debriefed by IRS
13 and FBI agents extensively, wore a concealed body
14 recorder, and then was surfaced and testified
15 against Rocky Infelise and his crew in the main
16 case in which they were all convicted and he also
17 testified in connection with a murder case in
18 which they murdered a bookmaker and they were
19 convicted as well.
20 Q. When you say they were all convicted
21 in the Infelise case, do you know how many
22 defendants there were approximately?
23 A. Approximately 20. I'm not sure
24 exactly. 20 or more.
306
1 Q. Approximately what period of time was
2 Mr. Jahoda active in organized crime?
3 A. He was active in organized crime for
4 approximately 10 years, in the gambling aspect of
5 the Ferriola crew, 1980s, up until the time he
6 cooperated with the Bureau.
7 MR. CARMELL: I'm not --
8 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
9 Q. Can you give any better approximation
10 than that at this time in terms of the time
11 period that ended?
12 A. Oh, when it ended? It ended at the
13 time of the indictments of Rocky Infelise, and I
14 don't recall when that was, but there's a
15 document which would show that, sir. I think it
16 was 1993. I'm not sure.
17 Q. Well, that's a good frame of
18 reference.
19 THE HEARING OFFICER: You'd say roughly in
20 the early '90s then, '91, '92, '93, something
21 like that?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, that's my
23 recollection.
24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
307
1 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
2 Q. Has Mr. Jahoda provided information to
3 the FBI regarding organized criminal activities
4 and the structure of the Outfit in the past?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Has the FBI ever found that
7 information to be unreliable?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. Did you speak to Mr. Jahoda about some
10 or all the members on GEB Attorney chart Exhibit
11 No. 145?
12 A. Yes, sir, I did.
13 Q. Over what period of time?
14 A. September the 9th, 1996.
15 Q. I'll also just reference that we spoke
16 about Mr. Gerald Scarpelli yesterday, you went
17 through his 302 and we discussed Mr. Vince
18 Solano, is that not correct?
19 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
20 Q. Now, Mr. O'Rourke, in addition to the
21 witnesses that you've just mentioned, did you
22 ever have occasion to speak to any informants,
23 confidential informants, regarding any of the
24 individuals listed on this time line chart,
308
1 Exhibit 145?
2 A. Yes, sir, I did.
3 Q. Can you provide the names of these
4 sources?
5 A. No, sir, I cannot.
6 Q. Why is that?
7 A. All were promised confidentiality.
8 Many are long-time confidential informants of the
9 FBI, continue to talk to myself and all have
10 expressed fear of retribution and fear of their
11 life should their identity be revealed.
12 Q. Are some of these individuals current
13 members of the Chicago Outfit?
14 A. Yes, sir, they are.
15 Q. Are you able to refer to these
16 individuals by number and provide us with some
17 limited information about these individuals that
18 does not compromise their identity?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 MR. CARMELL: Mr. Hearing Officer, I want to
21 object right now on this aspect. There is no
22 confidentiality between Mr. O'Rourke as a private
23 citizen and anybody who he might say was a
24 confidential source with the Federal Bureau of
309
1 Investigation. If that individual spoke to
2 Mr. O'Rourke knowing, as he must have, that he
3 was no longer an FBI agent and that he was simply
4 a private citizen working for a labor union
5 getting paid by that labor union, there is no
6 confidentiality and they have no right to not
7 reveal the name of that person right here and
8 now.
9 MR. BOSTWICK: Mr. Carmell, this information
10 is used in exactly this form for a number of
11 purposes in federal cases, for search warrants,
12 wire taps and the like. If we can establish that
13 these individuals -- Mr. O'Rourke can testify and
14 give us some basic information, I request that we
15 put this information in, you can take it for what
16 it's worth. Some of it is extremely important.
17 MR. CARMELL: No. This is not a Grand
18 Jury. This is not federal government. This is
19 John O'Rourke, private citizen, talking to a
20 former snitch of his who he knows is no longer,
21 that person knows that Mr. O'Rourke is no longer
22 a member of the FBI of the federal government.
23 The fact that Mr. O'Rourke sits up there and says
24 I told him I would keep the name confidential
310
1 does not fly here, Mr. Hearing Officer. If they
2 want to keep it confidential, then keep it
3 confidential and don't bring it up here, but you
4 can't be a little bit pregnant. You're not going
5 to say it came to this private citizen and we're
6 not going to know his name or her name and we're
7 going to get numbers.
8 THE HEARING OFFICER: The argument that you
9 make may carry if you were in a private civil
10 suit in state court or federal court, may, may
11 not, but it's up to this union, it's up to like,
12 for example, the Teamsters Union to set their own
13 course of what they will respect and what they
14 will not. The Teamsters expect the -- the
15 Teamsters Hearing Officer respects the
16 confidentiality of -- given to their --
17 MR. CARMELL: That is not correct,
18 Mr. Hearing Officer. The independent Hearing
19 Officer or the IRB will respect the FBI agent
20 testifying concerning the confidentiality of a
21 witness. There is no case where a private
22 citizen has gotten up there and said I want to
23 implicate an officer or member of the Teamsters,
24 in what you would call here barred conduct, but
311
1 I'm not going to tell you because I used to be an
2 FBI agent, and I'm not telling you about
3 conversations that occurred before I retired,
4 but --
5 MR. BOSTWICK: Well, actually we may be
6 doing that.
7 MR. CARMELL: -- but have occurred since.
8 Now, that is the cut line, Mr. Hearing Officer.
9 And with respect it a civil suit, if that would
10 carry in a civil suit, in this lesser proceeding,
11 it certainly carries even more. You are going to
12 attempt to be asked to put an organization into
13 trusteeship and you're going to be asked to do it
14 now on the basis that Mr. O'Rourke is going to
15 have free rein, absolute free rein to say
16 whatever he wants about anybody, about any name
17 and say, well, I said to this person I would keep
18 it confidential. Now, that's unacceptable in any
19 form.
20 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me make one point of
21 clarification.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: You don't have to.
23 Gentlemen, in this particular union's judicial
24 procedure, we will respect that. We will respect
312
1 that. If it's not respected other places, we
2 do. And I ruled on that in prior times and will
3 continue to do so. The problem we will face or
4 the problem that is a test is when we have
5 confidential information, coming from
6 confidential sources, of course, it must go under
7 -- it must undergo a lot of scrutiny and we're
8 not going to have an entire proceeding based upon
9 confidential sources. If you give some
10 information, or you ask Mr. O'Rourke to give
11 information and he says X, Y and Z are identified
12 as members or associates, they do second story
13 work, or whatever it is, I would ask you also to
14 identify what portion of that information is
15 coming from these sources so we can examine it
16 because obviously it either has to be
17 corroborated or there has to be some substance to
18 it. So I would ask you to differentiate that. I
19 overrule Mr. Sherman Carmell's objection.
20 MR. CARMELL: Do I get the witness'
21 statements? Do I get his notes? Or do I
22 get --
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: No notes.
24 MR. CARMELL: I get no notes, no
313
1 statements?
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: No.
3 MR. CARMELL: The Supreme Court in the
4 Jencks case said the minimum due process, the
5 right to cross-examine by having witness
6 statements. I'm not going to know the name, I'm
7 not going to get the witness' statements, I'm not
8 going to be able to cross-examine him, and in
9 turn, you're going to take this as evidence, and
10 I'm hearing for whatever it's worth.
11 Well, what is it worth if I don't have
12 the right to cross-examine these witnesses? Why
13 don't we bring those witnesses in under the
14 protective custody in the same way we are going
15 to bring others in? I don't need Mr. O'Rourke to
16 tell me what they said to him, double hearsay.
17 Bring them in under the same protection. We now
18 have names. We have arrangements made, I
19 understand, for the others. I'll get it, either
20 I will get it right from you to see their
21 statements or once they testify. Why can't I
22 have the same right with these persons who
23 Mr. O'Rourke may have made up, as far as I am
24 concerned, may or may not?
314
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: May or may not, but in
2 our procedure, under the LMRDA, the respondent
3 does not get the same rights as one does in a
4 criminal case.
5 MR. CARMELL: I get the right to
6 cross-examine. I have labor arbitration cases
7 that say that. I have the Supreme Court that
8 says that. You're going to take away the rights
9 of 21,000 members based upon Witness No. 1 who I
10 will never see, who I will have no statements
11 from, and John O'Rourke is going to say whatever
12 he wants to say, whatever his, as the Supreme
13 Court says, treacherous memory will allow him to
14 say, and I can't impeach him, I can't question
15 him, I can't do anything?
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: You may question
17 him --
18 MR. CARMELL: I question John O'Rourke?
19 You've got another thing coming, Mr. Hearing
20 Officer. I don't question a person who I have no
21 documents about and who can sit up there and tell
22 me, oh, you're wrong, I'll tell you exactly when
23 I talked to him. I talked to him in May of '96,
24 and you know what he told me, and then if I catch
315
1 him on something, he says, oh, by the way, he
2 gave me a later statement that said this.
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: It's the very same
4 issue that's been cited a number of times in the
5 Teamster cases.
6 MR. CARMELL: Never been cited in a Teamster
7 case.
8 THE HEARING OFFICER: It's the same
9 principle. Let's move on. Let's move on.
10 MR. CARMELL: I just want to make it clear.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: You've made it clear.
12 MR. CARMELL: I want to make one thing clear
13 if I didn't. I am not asking right now for
14 those, at this moment, for those statements which
15 were given to Mr. O'Rourke while he worked for
16 the FBI defined as confidential. I am asking for
17 the names of the witnesses he spoke to in his
18 capacity as the Inspector General and those
19 statements.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Proceed.
21 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
22 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, we'll also write down
23 which ones of these individuals you spoke to
24 while you were in the FBI and what limited
316
1 conversations you may have had after or while you
2 were an Inspector General since that appears to
3 be part of the concern.
4 Let's go through some of these
5 informants.
6 MR. CARMELL: Mr. Hearing Officer, can I
7 have a voir dire on this issue of confidentiality
8 with Mr. O'Rourke? I want to question
9 Mr. O'Rourke on some issues so you'll have the
10 record on this issue of confidentiality, this
11 promise of confidentiality.
12 THE HEARING OFFICER: He hasn't gotten to
13 the substance. You're about --
14 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct.
15 MR. CARMELL: No, no, no.
16 MR. BOSTWICK: We're just going to do the
17 same thing we did with the other individuals.
18 MR. CARMELL: I want to voir dire him on
19 issues as to whether these persons should be
20 confidential.
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Why don't we save it
22 until the time we begin to hear about it?
23 MR. CARMELL: Okay.
24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I mean, you'll
317
1 get a chance to voir dire him and cross-examine
2 him.
3 MR. CARMELL: I'd like to voir dire him on
4 that issue and go from there, if I may.
5 THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm just trying --
6 MR. CARMELL: The timing doesn't matter.
7 I'd just like it before it comes in that I have
8 an opportunity to voir dire him.
9 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We'll grant you
10 that, but let's put this on so it makes some
11 sense as you put it in, and at some appropriate
12 place we'll stop and talk about the issue of the
13 information given to O'Rourke private citizen as
14 opposed to O'Rourke FBI agent, all right, and at
15 that point, we will find a logical place for that
16 to occur. All right?
17 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
18 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, let's go through these
19 informants. There are 14 of them, is that
20 correct?
21 A. 11, sir.
22 Q. 11. I'm sorry.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. 11 informants?
318
1 A. Yes, sir, 11.
2 MR. CARMELL: 11 confidential informants?
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: 11 confidential
4 informants or --
5 THE WITNESS: 11 confidential informants.
6 THE HEARING OFFICER: These are 11
7 confidential informants which are the subject of
8 Mr. Carmell's objection.
9 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct.
10 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
11 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, Informant No. 1, can you
12 tell us the general position that individual
13 holds in the Mob, if any?
14 A. Yes, sir. He is a Chicago Outfit
15 associate and has been personally involved and
16 has had conversations over 40 years with Anthony
17 Accardo, with Joseph Aiuppa, Joe Ferriola.
18 MR. CARMELL: Mr. Hearing Officer, could we
19 just identify the person's relationship and not
20 have at this time editorial content? If he's a
21 confidential informant and he's now beginning to
22 tell us all of the things that this person's
23 relationships are, then I don't think it's
24 confidential.
319
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's about the only
2 way one can give some credibility to him. If he
3 said this is an associate who is a toll taker on
4 the turnpike as opposed to being a confidant of
5 Mr. Accardo in high decision making, that's
6 another story.
7 MR. CARMELL: Well, I suppose you're
8 correct, sir. Since Mr. O'Rourke has the
9 absolute prerogative to say anything he wants
10 about these people for any number of years and
11 make it up as he goes along, I guess you're
12 right. We might as well hear the whole fable.
13 MR. BOSTWICK: I object to those
14 statements. I'll sit here and listen to some of
15 these --
16 MR. CARMELL: It's a fable to me until I can
17 get some corroboration.
18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, let's talk
19 to me. You may label it fabled. Whatever it is,
20 let's hear this evidence and let's hear the
21 corroboration. I was about to ask myself, if you
22 didn't, is he involved -- are these individuals
23 involved, down the line, are they, as I say, a
24 mere toll taker on the turnpike, are they
320
1 involved in criminal activity themselves, do they
2 have normal jobs and just associate on the side,
3 or where is it they fit into the business?
4 Okay. Go ahead.
5 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
6 Q. Precisely where we were going with
7 No. 1. Why don't you continue your statement,
8 Mr. O'Rourke.
9 A. Yes, sir. He's, as I said, a Mob
10 associate, he's had known membership with top
11 leaders of the Chicago Mob for over 40 years and
12 has had conversations with them. He is trusted
13 by them and has provided information since 1988
14 up until 1996, the last time I interviewed him.
15 All of his information has been proven accurate.
16 He identified before the FBI as being generally
17 aware of Mob bosses Sam Carlisi and later Joseph
18 Andriacci --
19 THE HEARING OFFICER: Does he work?
20 THE WITNESS: He's retired, sir.
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Did he work?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: A legitimate job or
24 did he hustle with the Outfit?
321
1 THE WITNESS: No, sir. He had a job
2 involved in trucking and market activities.
3 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
4 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, did you ever speak to
5 this individual while you were a LIUNA Inspector
6 General or was your contact with him only as a
7 result of your Bureau communications?
8 A. Both, sir. While I was a special
9 agent of the FBI and then several times since
10 then as an inspector with LIUNA.
11 Q. On No. 2, Informant No. 2, could you
12 tell us generally what that individual's position
13 is with the Mob?
14 A. Yes, sir. He is a Mob associate, was
15 a former burglar, and jewel thief, personally
16 acquainted, grew up with, personally acquainted
17 with Tony Spilotro, Joe Lombardo, many of the top
18 members of organized crime, continues to provide
19 information, began speaking with him -- other
20 agents spoke with him before I did. He's been an
21 informant for approximately since 1968 to the
22 present time.
23 Q. Without disclosing what job he held,
24 did he hold a job or did he actually hold some
322
1 permanent position in the Outfit only?
2 A. No, sir. He's a Mob associate and he
3 in the past has been involved in street crimes,
4 cartage theft, burglary, narcotics.
5 Q. Did you ever speak to him as a LIUNA
6 Inspector General or just as FBI?
7 A. Both as an FBI agent and as an
8 inspector.
9 Q. How about No. 3?
10 A. No. 3 is a Mob associate, former
11 member of the Ferriola Cicero Crew. He's worked
12 in the past as a burglar, armed robber, enforcer,
13 collector, is employed at the present time for
14 the City of Chicago.
15 Q. No. 4?
16 A. No. 4 --
17 Q. I'm sorry. Let me ask you about No. 3
18 first. Had you spoken to him as a LIUNA
19 Inspector General or only as an FBI agent?
20 A. Both, as an FBI agent and as an
21 inspector with LIUNA.
22 Q. Is that true for all these informants
23 or not?
24 A. No, sir, it's not.
323
1 Q. Okay. Then we'll keep going through
2 them seriatim. No. 4, could you tell us who that
3 individual is?
4 A. No. 4 --
5 Q. Gentleman.
6 A. No. 4 is a former associate member of
7 organized crime, worked as an agent in a gambling
8 operation with the 26th Street Chinatown Crew,
9 worked in connection with the Ferriola Crew who
10 was in regular contact with individuals such as
11 Michael Sarno, Sal Gruttadauro, James Peter
12 Basile, Jerry Scarpelli, and others, provided
13 valuable information over many years, 1985, I
14 believe it was, up until the present time. His
15 information has been utilized to obtain Title 3
16 wire taps, search warrants, and has resulted in
17 the arrest and convictions of Mob members.
18 Q. Can you tell us whether or not you
19 have spoken --
20 MR. CARMELL: Can we identify the Mob
21 members which were -- which Mr. O'Rourke has
22 volunteered led to convictions, wire taps led to
23 convictions?
24 THE WITNESS: Rocky Infelise Crew, sir.
324
1 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
2 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, did you speak with this
3 individual No. 4 as a LIUNA Inspector General or
4 only when you were with the Bureau?
5 A. Only when I was a Bureau agent, sir.
6 Q. How about No. 5, can you give that
7 individual's general position in the Mob without
8 disclosing the identity?
9 A. Yes, sir. He was, again, a Mob
10 associate, personally contacted and talked with
11 Al Pilotto, Al Tocco, Jerry Scarpelli, Jerry
12 Scalise, Duke Basile, Solly Cautadella, Rocky
13 Infelise over the years, provided information
14 that has been utilized in Title 3 affidavits,
15 search warrants and his information has led to
16 the arrest of a number of Mob members, primarily
17 the Ferriola Crew individuals.
18 Q. Have you spoken to this individual
19 No. 5 after you were a LIUNA Inspector General,
20 when you were a LIUNA Inspector General?
21 A. Yes, sir, I did.
22 Q. And with the FBI?
23 A. As well as with the FBI, yes, sir.
24 THE HEARING OFFICER: What did this fellow
325
1 do?
2 THE WITNESS: Worked for the Cook County,
3 sir, and also various other jobs in the course of
4 his life.
5 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
6 Q. I believe we are up to No. 6 now, is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Can you give the general information
10 on the sixth individual?
11 A. Yes, sir. He is an individual who
12 provided information to me strictly as an
13 inspector with LIUNA. He is from the 26th Street
14 Chinatown area and has limited knowledge of
15 organized crime activities, but some knowledge of
16 it.
17 Q. How about No. 7?
18 A. No. 7 is a former -- is a confidential
19 informant of the FBI. He is an organized crime
20 associate familiar with the North Side Crew or
21 Rush Street Crew.
22 Q. Over what period of time
23 approximately?
24 A. Oh, late 1970s up until the current
326
1 time, 1980s, 1990s.
2 Q. Have you discussed that individual --
3 have you discussed the individuals on this chart,
4 Exhibit 145, with that individual either before
5 or after you became -- after you were in the
6 Bureau?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Okay. Did you discuss -- so both?
9 A. No, sir. I discussed this with them
10 as an inspector of LIUNA. He was provided to me
11 by former colleagues in the FBI and was
12 interviewed in that connection. He continues to
13 provide confidential information to the Bureau.
14 Q. How about No. 8?
15 A. No. 8, yes, sir.
16 Q. Can you provide a general description
17 of who he is?
18 A. No. 8 is an individual who has
19 personal knowledge of organized crime
20 activities. He is not a Mob associate. He is in
21 a position to provide information, and the
22 information that he has provided over the years
23 has been accurate. He is not directly in contact
24 with organized crime members, but with the
327
1 exception of two or three that he knows socially,
2 but the information that he has been able to
3 provide has been accurate in the past.
4 Q. Did you speak with him as a LIUNA
5 Inspector General?
6 A. Yes, both as an FBI agent and as an
7 Inspector General to LIUNA.
8 Q. How about No. 9?
9 A. No. 9 is a Mob associate, former
10 member of the Elmwood Park Crew in personal
11 contact with a number of Mob members, Marco
12 D'Amico, John DiFronzo, Peter DiFronzo and
13 others.
14 Q. Have you spoken to him as a LIUNA
15 Inspector General?
16 A. Yes, sir, I have.
17 Q. Have you spoken to him as an FBI
18 agent?
19 A. Yes, sir, I have.
20 Q. How about No. 10?
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: No. 9, I assume since
22 he was an associate in the crew, he essentially
23 stole for a living instead of having some
24 legitimate job?
328
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
2 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
3 Q. No. 10?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Can you describe for us who he is?
6 A. Yes, sir. No. 10 is an associate of
7 the Mob, member of the Elmwood Park Crew,
8 provided information to the FBI and to myself as
9 an Inspector General in the late 1990s up until
10 as recently as last week.
11 Q. How about No. 11, this is the last
12 one, is that correct?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. No. 11 is an individual who has
16 provided information. He has direct information
17 concerning individuals in the Rosemont, Illinois
18 area. Over the years he has personally talked
19 with Mob members such as Joseph Aiuppa, Tony
20 Spilotro, several others and his information has
21 been accurate.
22 Q. Did he have a regular job or was he
23 solely involved in stealing?
24 A. No, sir. He had a regular job.
329
1 MR. CARMELL: Excuse me. Did I miss 10,
2 whether he had spoken to him solely as the FBI or
3 solely LIUNA?
4 MR. BOSTWICK: I believe his testimony was
5 that it was both.
6 THE WITNESS: Both.
7 MR. CARMELL: No. 10 is both. I just missed
8 it. Thank you.
9 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
10 Q. And on No. 11 I don't believe we have
11 had that question yet, but did you speak to him
12 in your capacity as an agent in the FBI?
13 A. Yes, sir, in my capacity as an agent
14 in the FBI and subsequently in my capacity as an
15 inspector.
16 MR. BOSTWICK: Mr. Vaira, if you want to
17 take a short break for the court reporters, this
18 would be a logical point. If not, we can
19 continue.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: After that, this would
21 be a logical place for Mr. Carmell to make his
22 voir dire.
23 MR. BOSTWICK: Right now if you want to do
24 it before the break.
330
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: We will wait until the
2 break.
3 MR. CARMELL: I just have two questions,
4 really.
5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Two questions. You
6 are not limited to that, but go ahead, sir.
7 EXAMINATION.
8 BY MR. CARMELL:
9 Q. Excusing No. 4 who you saw only as
10 the -- in your capacity as special agent of the
11 Bureau, each of the other individuals was either
12 furnished to you by former FBI agents or you
13 contacted, is that correct?
14 A. All of them were developed by myself
15 when I was an FBI special agent with the
16 exception of No. 7, confidential informant
17 No. 10, seven on the list.
18 Q. And when you spoke to them in your
19 capacity as the inspector -- with the Inspector
20 General's office, you told them that, did you
21 not?
22 A. I told them I was an inspector?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. Yes, sir, I did.
331
1 Q. You told them basically what your job
2 was?
3 A. Yes, sir, I did.
4 MR. CARMELL: I have nothing else.
5 MR. BOSTWICK: This would be a logical
6 point.
7 THE HEARING OFFICER: It is early, so we'll
8 take only a 10-minute break.
9 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)
11 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
12 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, let me ask you to pull
13 Exhibit 6 which is a binder out of the exhibit
14 box and ask you to look at Exhibit 6A, if you
15 would.
16 Are you on 6A?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Can you tell me what that is?
19 A. That is a photograph of top leadership
20 of the Chicago organized crime syndicate taken at
21 a restaurant on North Harlem Avenue sometime in
22 the mid 1970s. It is often referred to as the
23 last supper photograph.
24 Q. Where was this photograph originally
332
1 obtained, if you know?
2 A. My understanding, it was obtained
3 during a search warrant conducted on the
4 residence of Joseph Ceasar DiVarco by IRS
5 agents.
6 Q. Have you spoken to a number of
7 witnesses, informants about the individuals in
8 this photo?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Referring to them with this photo?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Is it your understanding that this is
13 a fair and accurate representation of these
14 individuals?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object to that.
17 If he can identify that it is a fair and accurate
18 representation based upon his personal knowledge,
19 that's one thing, but if he is basing it on
20 something else, I would like to know who the
21 people are, where he got the information.
22 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
23 Q. To the extent you can do that.
24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let's do it this way.
333
1 You may ask him to identify if he recognizes them
2 and then the ones that he doesn't, he can
3 identify he has been told who these are by other
4 persons. I don't think it is necessary for him
5 to identify who told him these persons either are
6 or are not in the Mob and who they are. I don't
7 think it is that pivotal in this case, who told
8 him who they are.
9 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
10 Q. Do you know who these individuals are
11 and their positions in the Chicago Outfit?
12 A. Yes, sir, I do.
13 Q. How do you know this?
14 A. 32 years in law enforcement, 23 years
15 working organized crime cases, mug shots that I
16 have viewed, physical surveillances, interviews
17 that I have conducted, interviews with informants
18 in which I showed them the photograph and they
19 identified these individuals, cooperating
20 witnesses, some of which I have mentioned earlier
21 who identified the photograph and identified the
22 individuals.
23 Q. Do you recognize the individual in
24 Photo No. 8?
334
1 A. Yes, sir, I do.
2 Q. Who is that?
3 A. That is the late Vincent Solano.
4 Q. What is Mr. Solano's position in the
5 Chicago Outfit?
6 A. Vincent Solano was the boss of the
7 north side which included the Rush Street Crew
8 for many years.
9 THE HEARING OFFICER: I might add,
10 gentlemen, that a great many persons who read
11 Chicago would know a number of these persons.
12 Mr. Accardo openly lived in River Forest. His
13 house used to be a subject of driving by, you can
14 walk around outside. A number of these persons
15 had existences. Even though they may not have
16 had legitimate jobs, a person can pick them out
17 and see them in typical locations. They used to
18 eat I understand at various places throughout the
19 west side, so there is no big secret who they
20 are. So go ahead and identify them.
21 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
22 Q. Who were Mr. Solano's main associates?
23 A. Well, the individuals depicted in the
24 photograph all of whom are --
335
1 MR. CARMELL: Can we clarify main
2 associates? In this photograph?
3 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
4 Q. In this photograph?
5 A. The individuals that he is having
6 dinner with in the photograph are many of his
7 associates. They are top bosses of organized
8 crime in Chicago at that time in addition to
9 other individuals not in the photograph.
10 Q. Could you name these individuals in
11 the photograph?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13